Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #79 Access to Inappropriate Content

Transcript

#79 Access to Inappropriate Content · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: This is The Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coulson,
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Speaker 1: the podcast for the time Poor Parent, who Just Wants
0:10
Speaker 1: Answers Now, And for this particular episode, we're catching up
0:13
Speaker 1: with a conversation that doctor Justin Coulson had with Kindling
0:17
Speaker 1: on the very important topic of how to protect your
0:20
Speaker 1: kids from inappropriate content online. The other guest on the
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Speaker 1: show is e Safety Commissioner Julie Inman Grant, and they're
0:27
Speaker 1: specifically speaking about access to inappropriate content. We pick up
0:31
Speaker 1: the conversation as it's hosted by Chavon Hunt.
0:34
Speaker 2: Justin, I know I always start our conversations with this
0:37
Speaker 2: statement of fact. But you have five children. I have six,
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Speaker 2: So every time I get.
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Speaker 3: There, although on any day it could change depending on
0:43
Speaker 3: whether I'm feeling frisky or whether I've had enough of
0:46
Speaker 3: the kids.
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Speaker 2: You know, I always, whatever it is, it's more than two,
0:50
Speaker 2: so I always mention it. Have your children ever stumbled
0:54
Speaker 2: across something inappropriate?
0:56
Speaker 3: Not only have they stumbled across inappropriate content? I mean,
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Speaker 3: we know, we just know the research tells us. Now,
1:02
Speaker 3: of course, you're not allowed to ask an eight year
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Speaker 3: old or a ten year old whether they've been viewing
1:06
Speaker 3: pornography that's not ethical.
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Speaker 4: Researchers can't go and ask that question.
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Speaker 3: But when we ask people who are eighteen and above
1:12
Speaker 3: at what age they were first exposed to pornography, we
1:14
Speaker 3: know that they're being exposed.
1:16
Speaker 4: The great thing for me is that my kids are
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Speaker 4: all girls.
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Speaker 3: Girls are less likely than boys to be exposed to
1:22
Speaker 3: explicit material. Only one has been and she was most
1:28
Speaker 3: unhappy about it, and the other ones are really open
1:30
Speaker 3: about talking about it and they haven't been, which is great,
1:33
Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The frightening thing
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Speaker 3: for me, though, is not that they've been exposed to
1:38
Speaker 3: explicit material, but that they've been pressured and coerced to
1:43
Speaker 3: provide explicit material. Fortunately, my children have got me for
1:48
Speaker 3: a dad, so they've heard the story, they've heard the drill,
1:51
Speaker 3: they know what to do, and they've come and talked
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Speaker 3: to me about it, and they've made good decisions that
1:55
Speaker 3: have preserved their safety and their digital reputations. But boy, boy,
2:00
Speaker 3: you know when when you have your daughter come to
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Speaker 3: you and say you need to see these text messages
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Speaker 3: that this person has sent me, or I screenshot of
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Speaker 3: this snapchat, or you know, here's what's been happening on
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Speaker 3: Instagram and they show you the coercion that's coming from
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Speaker 3: boys who are.
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Speaker 4: Thirteen years old.
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Speaker 3: Or when your daughter jumps in the car off she's
2:19
Speaker 3: met up with some friends in the mall and she says, ah, yeah,
2:22
Speaker 3: so guess what. I just got a message. I met
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Speaker 3: this friend of a friend in the mall. I Facebook
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Speaker 3: friended him on the spot because he's a friend of
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Speaker 3: a friend and I know my friend and trusts my friend,
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Speaker 3: and so therefore they're all friends. And you know, facebooks
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Speaker 3: change the definition of friend, so now we're friends. I've
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Speaker 3: known him for five minutes and he's already asked me
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Speaker 3: how far I'll go or whether I'll send him a nude.
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Speaker 4: You know this sort of stuff.
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Speaker 3: It's so present, and a lot of parents are saying, oh,
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Speaker 3: and it doesn't happen to my kids. Well, you're not
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Speaker 3: talking to your kids number one, or maybe your kids
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Speaker 3: are lucky number two or number three. You're not aware
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Speaker 3: of it because you don't think it's out there, because
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Speaker 3: it's not happening to you. But let's take a step
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Speaker 3: back and remember that you are forty plus years old
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Speaker 3: and the people who are doing this are not looking
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Speaker 3: for you, they're looking for your kids. So the materials
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Speaker 3: out there, the risks are out there, and it happens
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Speaker 3: not to everybody, but it certainly happens across the board.
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Speaker 3: This is not unusual behavior.
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Speaker 2: Can I ask Justin the daughter that was exposed to
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Speaker 2: the content, how old was she at that time?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, she was in her mid teens.
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Speaker 2: Okay. And when you speak about the drill that you
3:21
Speaker 2: give them as a parent, you touched on it there.
3:23
Speaker 2: At what age did you start the drill?
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Speaker 3: This is a controversial question. I get in trouble consistently
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Speaker 3: for suggesting that we start much earlier than most parents
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Speaker 3: are comfortable hearing me suggests that that's the age that
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Speaker 3: it should be. So based on evidence, it seems that
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Speaker 3: children are being exposed to pornography on average, male and female.
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Speaker 3: The average age of exposure is around ten. It might
3:47
Speaker 3: be nine, it might be eleven. We kind of don't
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Speaker 3: know because hard to get good data. Julie might shed
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Speaker 3: some light on this. I don't know if you've seen
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Speaker 3: data that I haven't seen on this, but it seems
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Speaker 3: to be about ten.
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Speaker 5: Ish for both Australian boys.
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Speaker 3: Eleven years old, right, so somewhere around there and girls
4:01
Speaker 3: will be older. We have girls being exposed at much ages.
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Speaker 3: And when I go into schools and give talks on
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Speaker 3: this topic, I take a snap poll and I just
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Speaker 3: say to the boys. Usually they're all, you know, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen.
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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, well, just put up your hand. Was
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Speaker 3: it younger than ten? And a handful of hands will
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Speaker 3: go up.
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Speaker 4: Was it ten? Was eleven?
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Speaker 3: And usually it's somewhere around at eleven or twelve year
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Speaker 3: age group, but there's plenty that are still putting up
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Speaker 3: their hands at younger ages. So I recommend to parents
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Speaker 3: that they start talking about body safety and you know,
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Speaker 3: just what bodies are for and how bodies work, and
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Speaker 3: using appropriate names for anatomy from the start. That they
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Speaker 3: start talking about intimacy from probably around about the age
4:41
Speaker 3: of six ish.
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Speaker 4: Now I'm being really general here.
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Speaker 3: Every family is going to be different, and that they
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Speaker 3: start talking about procreation with more specificity around seven or eight,
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Speaker 3: and that they start talking about pornography before their kids
4:55
Speaker 3: are in grade five, because my guess is grade five
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Speaker 3: is about the age of a eleven, which means that
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Speaker 3: when my kids are going into grade five, I want
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Speaker 3: them to know what pornography is.
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Speaker 4: I want them to know what explicit.
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Speaker 3: Content is, and I want them to I mean, the
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Speaker 3: drill goes like this, Hey, have you ever heard of
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Speaker 3: something called pornography? And kids will usually say no at
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Speaker 3: the age of ten, even if they have heard of it,
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Speaker 3: because they don't want.
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Speaker 4: To tell their parents that they've heard of it.
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Speaker 3: And so we might spend a minute or two talking
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Speaker 3: about what pornography is, and then the question will be
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Speaker 3: I know it probably sounds a little bit weird, but
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Speaker 3: there are some people who are interested in viewing pornography.
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Speaker 4: You know, there's curiosity. Have you heard of.
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Speaker 3: It happening in your school? So I start really wide,
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Speaker 3: you know, is it happening at school? Do you hear
5:39
Speaker 3: anyone talking about it? And then I bring it in.
5:42
Speaker 3: I'll say, have any of your friends ever talked about it?
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Speaker 3: Have any of your friends ever been exposed to it?
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Speaker 3: Have they ever been involved with it? And then I'll
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Speaker 3: bring it even closer to home and I say, have
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Speaker 3: any of your friends ever talked to you about it?
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Speaker 3: Have you ever been shown it? Have you ever searched
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Speaker 3: for it yourself? And so we're starting nice and wide.
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Speaker 3: They feel comfortable and they're comfortable talking in generalities, and
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Speaker 3: slowly but surely we bring it into a nice specific point.
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Speaker 3: And whether they have or not, kind of it only
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Speaker 3: matters from the point of view that you might change
6:11
Speaker 3: what you're talking about. But what matters most is what
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Speaker 3: happens next, and that is when you say to your child, So,
6:16
Speaker 3: if it ever did happen, what do you think is
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Speaker 3: the best way to respond? Would you be willing to
6:22
Speaker 3: come to me and talk about it? Why do you
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Speaker 3: think I'd be concerned about it? Where do you think
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Speaker 3: the best place to go is to discuss things like this?
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Speaker 3: And so you're really trying to empower them to come
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Speaker 3: up with some good rules for themselves to make good decisions,
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Speaker 3: not if, but when they're exposed. Whether it's in grade
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Speaker 3: five or whether it's in grade nine, the likelihood is
6:44
Speaker 3: that they'll be exposed, and so we're pre arming them.
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Speaker 3: And that's the drill. As they get older, once they're
6:49
Speaker 3: in high school, you start talking about snapchat and Tumblr
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Speaker 3: and Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, and you start saying,
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Speaker 3: you know, people might start approaching you. If somebody approaches you,
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Speaker 3: these are the sorts of questions that they'll ask you.
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Speaker 3: They might ask you what you're wearing, or I might
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Speaker 3: ask you what you've got underneath what you're wearing. You know,
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Speaker 3: these are the kind of normal progressions that these conversations take.
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Speaker 4: How would you respond?
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Speaker 3: And you teach them don't delete this. This is important
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Speaker 3: that you keep it. We need to have evidence. And
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Speaker 3: then you teach them that you must come and talk
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Speaker 3: to a responsible adult. And this is how we kind
7:23
Speaker 3: of guide them through this stage, this phase.
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Speaker 2: So, Julie, what Justin's saying that's resonating with you and
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Speaker 2: what your experience is at the Commission.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm actually thinking about the talk that I
7:34
Speaker 5: need to have with my kids right now, like, for instance,
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Speaker 5: my five year old twins. I probably shouldn't be talking
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Speaker 5: about the privates in terms of fruit, the peach, the
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Speaker 5: banana and mommy's pineapple, So maybe we need to talk
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Speaker 5: about real anatomy. I look at the work I do
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Speaker 5: at the Commission also as a lens of a parent,
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Speaker 5: because parents are the cohort that we're really trained to reach,
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Speaker 5: the most difficult cohort to reach. They're busy, they may
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Speaker 5: be handing over the eyepad is the digital babysitter, and
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Speaker 5: they may not be engaged and involved in their kids
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Speaker 5: online lives. When my eldest daughter was five years old,
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Speaker 5: she was enamored with my Little Pony and we went
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Speaker 5: on YouTube and we're looking for my little pony and
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Speaker 5: we found a different kind of pony ride, if you
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Speaker 5: catch my drift. So kids can stumble upon pornography, and
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Speaker 5: it's not just that there's a proliferation of pornography or
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Speaker 5: violent content out there, it's that it's incredibly violent. A
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Speaker 5: lot of it is escalating. So it's not the garden
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Speaker 5: variety pornography that we used to steal from, you know,
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Speaker 5: dad's penthouse under the bed. There is wide ready access
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Speaker 5: to vast amounts of very violent, degrading and concerning pornography
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Speaker 5: that could impact our children's development. So yes, it's definitely
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Speaker 5: a concern for the commission. Then when you get to
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Speaker 5: the tween and teenage, of course, you know teenagers are
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Speaker 5: programmed to be curious and take risks, and yes they'll
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Speaker 5: be they'll be looking for it. And so I wholeheartedly
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Speaker 5: agree with justin that we need to start the conversations
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Speaker 5: with our kids early and often we're trying to get
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Speaker 5: them to develop more cyber judgment, better resilience, critical thinking skills,
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Speaker 5: but to also have those open and honest conversations so
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Speaker 5: that if they come across something that makes them uncomfortable
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Speaker 5: or is confronting, they'll come talk to you or another
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Speaker 5: trusted adult.
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Speaker 2: Justin I just want to bring you in there, because
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Speaker 2: one of the things that I keep thinking of when
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Speaker 2: we talk about you know, if we're talking about the
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Speaker 2: under sixes, and like your daughter's coming across. Luckily they
9:40
Speaker 2: were with you when that happened, but I can imagine
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Speaker 2: if children don't understand if they're very young and they
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Speaker 2: see something like pornography, regardless of whether it's violent or
9:51
Speaker 2: if it's just sex, that for a young child that
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Speaker 2: could be quite upsetting. And I'm wondering if do you
10:00
Speaker 2: have any advice for how parents can talk to their
10:03
Speaker 2: child once that exposure has happened.
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Speaker 3: It really depends on the context, so it's hard to
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Speaker 3: give general advice. It depends on the age of the child,
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Speaker 3: It depends on where they were when they were exposed,
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Speaker 3: how they felt about it. Most parents will tell me
10:16
Speaker 3: that when they've talked to their younger children that the
10:19
Speaker 3: kids will often say things like I kind of felt
10:22
Speaker 3: a bit icky that's probably the best descriptor. It just
10:26
Speaker 3: kind of felt a bit inside. But there's also for
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Speaker 3: many children, not for all, but for many children, there's
10:32
Speaker 3: also a real curiosity. And so from a parenting perspective,
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Speaker 3: what we want to do is encourage the conversation, which
10:40
Speaker 3: means we can't shut it down. We can't be critical,
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Speaker 3: we can't be angry. We might be inside seeing that
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Speaker 3: there are people out there who are literally targeting children
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Speaker 3: with this material for whatever inappropriate and foul and sick reason,
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Speaker 3: it's just not okay. But being angry in that moment
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Speaker 3: at our child or at our child's friends parents who
11:00
Speaker 3: had the sleepover where this occurred and didn't supervise appropriately,
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Speaker 3: there's no point going there and doing that in the
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Speaker 3: moment with our children. What we instead want to do
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Speaker 3: is ask ourselves a couple of questions. Number one, who
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Speaker 3: do I want to be the sex educator of my child?
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Speaker 3: Do I want the Internet to be in charge of
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Speaker 3: my child's sex education? Or do I want to be
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Speaker 3: in charge? And if it's going to me, then we
11:21
Speaker 3: want to start a conversation. And my number one advice
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Speaker 3: to parents is number one, always be calm, and number
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Speaker 3: two be led by your child's curiosity. If your child
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Speaker 3: doesn't want to talk about it, if they're not curious,
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Speaker 3: if they'd rather just put it behind them, then that's fine.
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Speaker 3: Let it go and say I'm always here to talk
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Speaker 3: and set up a couple of rules to help them,
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Speaker 3: not demanding next time, this is what I expect of you,
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Speaker 3: but instead, well, if this happens again, where do you
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Speaker 3: think is the best way to go? What's the best
11:54
Speaker 3: way to deal with it? So again we're trying to
11:56
Speaker 3: empower them rather than be authoritarian towards them. They're much
11:59
Speaker 3: more likely who think it through maturely, even at a
12:02
Speaker 3: young age, if we're not in their ear telling them
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Speaker 3: how it's got to be. And if I ever catch
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Speaker 3: you doing this again, because what happens is that forbidden
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Speaker 3: fruit actually becomes quite tantalizing, and all of a sudden
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Speaker 3: they start thinking, even if they are only six or seven,
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Speaker 3: don't worry, Dad, you won't catch me doing that again.
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Speaker 3: I'll be much trickier and sneakier next. I just won't
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Speaker 3: tell you. So we just want to keep the communication
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Speaker 3: channels open and ask them questions, be guided by their curiosity,
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Speaker 3: stay calm. That would be the simplest advice i'd give.
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Speaker 2: You're listening to kindling conversation and this is part of
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Speaker 2: our Safety Net series Keeping Our Kids Safe Online, and
12:37
Speaker 2: we're speaking with doctor Justin Coilson, who's a parenting educator
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Speaker 2: and author, and Julie Inman Grant, who's the Children's e
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Speaker 2: Safety Commissioner. Julie, you were nodding vigorously then when Justin
12:48
Speaker 2: was talking about how we might talk to our kids
12:52
Speaker 2: once they've been exposed this way, and after all we've
12:55
Speaker 2: talked about this seems like a stupid question, but I'm
12:59
Speaker 2: going to ask it anyway. Can we actually have things
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Speaker 2: in place to prevent these happening? I know we don't
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Speaker 2: know that we can completely prevent it, but are there
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Speaker 2: safety measures as parents that we can put in place
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Speaker 2: that is some kind of protection?
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Speaker 5: Right? Well, there are a couple of things there. My
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Speaker 5: office has been charged by the government with looking into
13:23
Speaker 5: suggested strategies for government in terms of how to tackle
13:27
Speaker 5: this issue. The other thing that parents should do, aside
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Speaker 5: from sitting down and talking to their kids and being
13:34
Speaker 5: engaged in their online lives, knowing what they're doing, who
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Speaker 5: they're talking to, what they're they're looking at is when
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Speaker 5: they're setting up setting up programs for them, particularly at
13:43
Speaker 5: the younger ages, making sure they're setting up the privacy
13:47
Speaker 5: settings and the parental controls. There are technology solutions that
13:52
Speaker 5: can help parents ensure that their kids are having safer experiences,
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Speaker 5: but I'd also warned that technology in and of itself
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Speaker 5: is never a panacea. You know, you're never going to
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Speaker 5: totally prevent access because technological protections can be circumvented and
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Speaker 5: you just don't want to have that set in forget
14:12
Speaker 5: mentality and that resilience and critical thinking that we want
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Speaker 5: to develop in our children so that they know how
14:18
Speaker 5: to react appropriately is a really important defense. So you know,
14:24
Speaker 5: there is there are some forms of prevention, but again,
14:28
Speaker 5: be engagement is going to be really important. I also
14:31
Speaker 5: want to note that these conversations are really awkward, and
14:35
Speaker 5: sometimes they don't happen because parents don't know how to
14:38
Speaker 5: have that bird's in the bees conversation with the technical
14:40
Speaker 5: mannual anymore. And thanks to doctor Colson, he spent a
14:45
Speaker 5: lot of time providing some resources on e safety dot
14:48
Speaker 5: gov dot IU on a wide range of topics, including
14:53
Speaker 5: what to do when someone shows your child pornography? Six
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Speaker 5: strategies for when your child accidentally finds online pornography, and
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Speaker 5: then how to talk about pornography with children as young
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Speaker 5: as eight, for kids that are eight to twelve, and
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Speaker 5: then for teenagers, because you're obviously having very different conversations
15:13
Speaker 5: at different levels of child's development.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, just listening to what Julie has said,
15:19
Speaker 3: something struck me that I really want to emphasize. I'm
15:25
Speaker 3: a supporter of using appropriate safeguards to protect children in
15:31
Speaker 3: the same way that I'm a supporter of fencing the pool.
15:34
Speaker 3: You know, it keeps children out of obvious and immediate danger,
15:38
Speaker 3: but you can't fence the ocean, and relying on technology
15:43
Speaker 3: to keep your children safe will simply well, it will
15:47
Speaker 3: ultimately fail because they'll be at a friend's house who
15:49
Speaker 3: doesn't have the same protections, or they'll be at school,
15:52
Speaker 3: or they'll be on the bus, or they'll be somewhere.
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Speaker 3: The number of parents who have come and spoken to
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Speaker 3: me after a seminar that I've run a presentation where
16:00
Speaker 3: and said, you know, my eight year old was on
16:03
Speaker 3: the school bus and one of the year six boys
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Speaker 3: said look at this and stuck something in front of
16:07
Speaker 3: him that was violent and degrading and explicit, and it's
16:11
Speaker 3: affected him. Or my eleven year old was at a
16:13
Speaker 3: sleepover and the parents went to bed, and the kids
16:16
Speaker 3: pulled out the iPads and they started looking up rude words.
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Speaker 3: And it was innocent when it began, But now my
16:22
Speaker 3: eleven year old feels sick and doesn't want to see
16:23
Speaker 3: his friends anymore because it's just made him feel so awful.
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Speaker 4: And I've got, and I'm sure.
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Speaker 3: Julie has well countless stories of good parents and good
16:32
Speaker 3: kids who have just been had this thrust upon them
16:36
Speaker 3: in spite of the very best conversations and the very
16:38
Speaker 3: best intentions. So no matter how hard we try, we
16:42
Speaker 3: need to be aware that it's almost guaranteed. It's not guaranteed,
16:46
Speaker 3: but it's almost guaranteed to happen, and when it does,
16:49
Speaker 3: ideally we'll have already had the conversation with our children.
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Speaker 4: Now.
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Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting, by the way, if somebody's listening with
16:55
Speaker 3: a four year old that they say, right, we need
16:57
Speaker 3: to talk about this now. Actually, my number one advice
17:00
Speaker 3: for parents of young children is have every serious conversation
17:04
Speaker 3: about pornography, about drugs, about sex and intimacy. But whatever
17:07
Speaker 3: you pick the topic. All serious conversations need to be
17:10
Speaker 3: had at least once by the age of two. Not
17:13
Speaker 3: that the children will understand what you're saying.
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Speaker 4: But you've got you've had, but that.
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Speaker 3: You've had practice starting to talk about this stuff out loud,
17:23
Speaker 3: because when the moment arrives, if you haven't had some
17:25
Speaker 3: level of practice, it's it's actually kind of hard to
17:28
Speaker 3: do it. As Julie said, it's a bit tricky, but
17:30
Speaker 3: you can't fence the ocean. So have the conversation in
17:33
Speaker 3: an age appropriate way. You know, the resources are at
17:36
Speaker 3: the e Safety dot gov dot au website. Have the
17:40
Speaker 3: appropriate conversation with your children and let them lead it
17:43
Speaker 3: and follow their curiosity and pre arm them.
17:48
Speaker 2: We've got so much to think about just in this
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Speaker 2: one episode. Justin, Julie, thank you so much for coming in.
17:54
Speaker 4: It's been a pleasure.
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Speaker 1: To find more resources jump online at Happy Families dot
17:58
Speaker 1: com dot au. And if you're interested in having doctor
18:01
Speaker 1: Justin Coulson speak for your organization or event, you can
18:04
Speaker 1: find those details at Justinculson dot com.