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Opinionated Animals with Michelle Lerner · WriterCon

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This week on the WriterCon podcast.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I would take this with a grain of salt
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: if you're a genre writer, because I'm not. But my
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: advice would be to not be afraid to break conventions.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Welcome to WriterCon, a gathering place for writers to share
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Do you
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: have a desire to write? Every successful writer started with
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: their first book. All it takes is determination and knowledge,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: and WriterCon can provide that knowledge. Your hosts are number
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: one national bestselling writer William Bernhardt, author of more than
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: 60 books, including The Superman Wars, and Laura Bernhardt, award-winning
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: author of The Wantland Files series and Shadow of the Taj.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey there, writers. Thanks for joining
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: us today. This is the first episode of season six.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: of the RyderCon podcast. We took a short break after
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: the end of RyderCon 2026, our biggest, and I like
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: to think, and I'm not at all biased here, the
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: best year for this conference. So how have you guys
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: been passing the time now that the thrill of RyderCon
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: is starting to fade? Jesse, how have you been making
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: yourself stay busy?
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I've got a couple of audio books I've been
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: working on. And then I also have the weight of
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: getting the recordings done for you hanging over my head
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: at all times.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: Somebody emailed me this morning and wanted to know what
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: I said. Back off, man. It hasn't even been a year.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: A month.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: A month.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: A year.
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: There is an interesting balance where if I don't do
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: it within a month or so, I forget certain details
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: of like, when things got moved or what I did
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: with what microphone. And so I have to do it
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: reasonably soon afterwards, but I also need to give myself
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: time to recover. Wow.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Just to be clear, Jesse records every session at this,
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: every class at this conference, and that's a bunch. And
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: so since you can't go at everything at the same
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: time during the conference, you can get a copy of
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: the recording afterwards, right?
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: That's correct.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: People love that.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: What about you, Jessie? That was Jessie. Laura, that woman
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I'm married to, Laura, how have you been passing the
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: time since WriterCon?
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: Well, I'd like to say that I did nothing but
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: sleep since to recover from that, but staying busy, staying busy.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: I did writing, editing, working on lots of things, always.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: I thought it was a terrific conference. I thought it
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: all went well. Everybody seemed pleased. I only have one regret.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: And that, of course, is that we didn't see Jesse
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: at karaoke night.
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: I was there.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Listen, I had to run technical issues at karaoke night.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: As per usual, every time I show up to something.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Got sucked in.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: I did. Girls just want to have fun. Yeah. It's
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: not the same. Singo, though, that was a hit. Singo, Jesse,
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: and Bilbo Baggins. That was an all-time. If you weren't there,
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: you'll never understand.
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: That'll go down in RyderCon history. We really just had
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: a great group of people there this year. Yeah, we did.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: Just the vibe was great. High energy. Yeah, this was great.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: All right. Well, there will be a RyderCon 2027, but
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: since that's not till September 3rd through 6th, well, you
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: can mark it down on your calendars now. It'll take
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: about a month for the website to catch up to 2027,
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: but it'll get there eventually.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I think it's actually already there.
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: You really?
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I went yesterday thinking I could look up
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: the schedule for 2026 instead of having to use the
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Whova app, and it was already 2027. So your website
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: people are already on it.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: We're on top of it. Boy, I better take a
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: look at it and see if I like what's there.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Today we are talking with Michelle Lerner, who is the
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: author of a new memoir, sort of, called A Series
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: of Opinionated Animals, which welcomes readers into her astonishing world
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: where the line between rescue and civil disobedience is blurred
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: and a lot of other important issues about humans and
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: our animal friends are revealed. She's also the author of
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: a novel titled Ring, which was long listed for the
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: Aspen Words Literary Prize. We will talk to her about
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: the new book, the old book, and so much more.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: But first, the news. news story number one fan fiction
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: is ready for its close-up i was really proud of
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: that headline and the movie reference and now i'm thinking
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: no one will know what i'm talking about i get
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: it Ah, thank you, Jesse.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: And I get it mostly, I think, because the Simpsons
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: reference it all the time. Really?
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Or maybe the Muppets. Someone made references to, you know,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I'm ready for my close-up. It was either something in
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: the 90s or early 2000s. I can't remember what it was.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: But either the Simpsons or the Muppets, I think, is
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: where I learned about that reference.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: Well, today we're talking about this continuing direct line from
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: fan fiction to published non-fan fiction to movie or TV
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: show that just seems to keep paying off for people. So, Jesse,
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: you remember the ending of Star Wars 9, the rise
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: of Stalwalker, Walker, which some people thought was pretty well botched? Yes.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Did you love it?
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: No, it was terrible.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: There we go. So, you see why many people have
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: taken to writing fan fiction of their own to fix it.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: Fan fiction, you know, that's something that like 20 years ago,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: maybe even 10, I would have told people, don't bother.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can't sell it. You don't own those characters.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: So why do it? You don't own the IP. But
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: people have been finding ways over and over again. People
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: are posting things on Wattpad or Archive of Our Own
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: as fan fiction, which causes people to want to read it.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: And then when it's done well, it hits the nerve.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: and they develop an audience, and they want to use
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: that audience to sell the book, but that means some
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: changes have to be made. Names have to be changed.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: Locations have to be changed, probably. Listen to this statistic.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Of the now 19 million books... on archive of our own,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I should say works, because some of them are shorter.
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: Of the 19 million works there, over 32,000 are fix-ups
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: of that botched ending to Star Wars 9. Usually focusing
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: on the Reylo relationship shipping aspect, you know, trying to
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: get Rey together with Kylo Ren. So that's called Reylo,
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: get it? Not J-Lo, but Reylo. And anyway, one of
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: those was so popular that the author changed the names,
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: though retaining the love match at the heart of it.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: And people liked it so much, she got a mainstream publisher.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: And now she's got a TV movie adaptation called The
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Love Hypothesis. Have you seen it, Jesse? This seems like
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: it's your kind of thing. No, but I was just
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: reading about this.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I did not realize The Love Hypothesis was the thing
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: that came from the other thing.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: So that's interesting.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: So now I'm interested.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: That's like trying to figure out, well, how did Fifty
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: Shades of Grey grow out of Twilight?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: That one I'm familiar with.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: Did you know Heated Rivalry, the book, evolved from people
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: doing fan fiction and inventing a relationship between Captain America,
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Steve Rogers, and Bucky? Oh, and Bucky?
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: And Bucky, as well as Kevin, Kirk, and Spock, and
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: as well as.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: That started it all, didn't it?
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Frodo and Sam, pretty much any two male friends in
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: popular culture have a fanfic about them being lovers in
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: some way.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: There's also Hermione and Draco fanfiction. A book called Manacled
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: was published in 2025, and now that's being... No, no,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: it was published as Manacled, then it was rewritten and
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: published as Alchemized, And now that's been optioned by Legendary.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: So that might well be a film soon. Maybe I
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: should just stop all this, you know, nonfiction and courtroom
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: stuff and just write thinly disguised Star Trek fan fiction.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: And as I was thinking about that, I thought, but
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: isn't that kind of what the Orville is?
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: The Orville is kind of Star Trek fan fiction. The
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: best kind, though, made from love.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: The kind that's enjoyable? Yes. So they've changed enough, but boy,
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: that sure looks like the next gen enterprise. It does.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: And Seth MacFarlane would a hundred percent agree with you.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, he got to make, he got to make
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: his love letter to Star Trek as a TV show.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: How great is that?
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: That's right. And make some money in the process.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Best of all.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: So Laura, when you write your fan fiction, what's your
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: IP going to be? What are you going to write?
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. The things I'm really into are like
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: hello kitty or peanuts.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: Well, okay, now peanuts could work. Let's think about this. Absolutely.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: We could have Charlie Brown trying to meet up with
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: the little red-haired girl and kind of dive in and
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: see what happens between Marcy and Peppermint Patty on the
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: down low. Actually, I was going to say I don't
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: think I could write fan fiction because I just get
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: too excited about writing my own stuff, but this?
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: I was just thinking.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: I think this is sounding really good.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you've got a good idea. I think people,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: maybe we shouldn't put this on the podcast. I think
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Charlie and the Little Redheaded Girls Romance has finally realized,
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: maybe when they're teenagers, who wouldn't read that book?
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, that sounds fun. Okay. All right. I'm going to
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: let that start kind of percolating. That's got some good ideas.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: I expect a royalty if we just gave you your
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: next book, but whatever.
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: No.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: News story number two. There are now dating apps. Well, actually,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: there have always been dating apps, or it seems like it.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: But now there are dating apps for book lovers. In
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: recent podcasts, we've covered stories about pop-up libraries and parks,
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: and we've talked about people going on reading hikes together.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: And that's why this story caught my attention, because I thought, wow,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: a dating app for book people. That's a terrific idea.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: And it turns out it's not even a new one.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: There are several of them. But the new kid in
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: town is called Chapter One for people in love with
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: books and looking for someone to share them with. And
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: that's coming from Library Thing, which has been around for
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: a while. That's an app people use to talk about
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: their books and keep lists and stuff like that. And
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: now they're adding a dating app component. And it turns
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: out there are a bunch of these dating apps for
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: book people components that that depending on which one you're
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: talking about, may have people, you know, instead of saying,
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: I like to go for a walk in the moonlight,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: they're saying, well, I'm going to rewrite Pride and Prejudice again. Reread.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: Most people would say not rewrite. We could do that too.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Or talk about their favorite authors or literary tropes that
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: they really are fond of. Other dating apps in this
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: arena include Litzy. That's L-I-T-S-Y, which was Originally a social
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: media app that's now added a dating component. There's Meet Cute. Lara,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: I bet you can guess who that's for. Well, is
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: it just, you think, for romance readers? Or is it
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: for people who want their life to resemble a romance novel?
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: I got you. So they want their Meet Cute.
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: There's Bookish Dating. There's OkCupid, which I was really hoping
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: was going to be Oklahoma.
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: For Oklahoma, yeah.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: But no. But it is a book dating app. And
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: there's also a Reddit page, r slash bookloversdating, all of
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: which are providing dating services for, you know, us book nerds. Jesse,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: so what exactly would you put on your profile page
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: in such an app? If you were single, which you
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: are not. Yes.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, if I did, I would, you know, it
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: would be a lot of, you know, fantasy, sci-fi connections.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, hey, do you like The Expanse? Do
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: you like Brands Harrison? Do you like the more obscure
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Neil Stevenson novels? Then, like, let's have a conversation. But
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: that's also assuming that the only connection between people is
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: a shared love of certain kinds of properties, which is
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: not always the case.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Well, that's a good point. I think Laura and I
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: get along reasonably well, but I think it's the exception,
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: not the rule, that we're reading the same book. You think,
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: had life turned out differently, Laura, do you think you'd
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: ever use a book-focused dating app?
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: Had life turned out differently?
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: In other words, if you weren't married already.
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: Well, let's okay, if something were to happen to you.
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: And if I thought I wanted to actually date again,
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: this might be a way in I might consider it
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: I'm definitely not going to go to a bar or
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: a club. But let's be honest, if something happened to you,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: and I were single again, I'd probably just adopt some
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: more cats.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Cats are a lot less trouble.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know if I would feel
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: like getting back into the dating scene, but I would
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: like to have some more little furry overlords. Ruben, my life.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: On the other hand, I never wake you up in
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: the morning and Bustopher does relentlessly.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: So when you are out of town, he does not,
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: he wakes you up early when you are out of town.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: He does not wake me up early. He knows the difference.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: He knows.
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: He knows.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: He's a smart boy. But you're correct.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: All right. Let's move on to Craft Corner. You may
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: recall that Leticia Gomez started a series last month with
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: a terrific first entry. Great interview she gave us, too.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: She was talking about pitching to agents and publishers. Well,
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: this time I'm finally presenting part two.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: A little late.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Sorry. So ignore the part about... anticipating WriterCon 2026. It's happened.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: The WriterCon 2027 is definitely on the horizon. Anyway, in
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: this installment, Letitia is going to talk about refining your pitch.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Take it away, Letitia.
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: Hello again, friends. Good morning and happy Friday. This is
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: Letitia Gomez, editor-at-large for Daphina Books, an imprint of New
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: York-based Traditional Publisher, Kensington Publishing Corporation, and the founder and
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: principal agent of Savvy Literary Services, a Texas-based literary agency.
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: I'm back today to present part two of my three-part
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: video series in anticipation of WriterCon 2026 in Oklahoma City.
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: After you've developed your pitch, and you feel that it's
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: ready to go, here are a few tips that you
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: can try before, during, and after. Tip number one, practice
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: your pitch verbally as much as you can. Present it
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: beforehand to anyone who will listen, whether it be your
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: significant other, your bestie, your grandmother, the Uber driver if
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: it comes to that. Remember, the more you practice your
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: pitch verbally, the less of a chance There will be
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: that you will mispronounce words or get tongue-tied when it
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: really counts. Tip number two. When verbally pitching, making your pitch,
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: make it a point to punctuate your words the same
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: way that you do your writing. Nothing turns off a
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: literary agent or acquisition editor more than having to listen
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: to a pitch in a continuous flatline monotone voice without
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: any fluctuations in speech. You're never going to sweet talk
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: your way into getting an agent or an editor to
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: ask to see your work this way. Tip number three,
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: pick out what you're going to wear beforehand the same
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: way that you would do a job interview. Wear something
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: that makes you feel comfortable and good about yourself and
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: won't make you worry that you're going to have an
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: embarrassing wardrobe malfunction. Now, the following tips are are to
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: help you to present yourself with confidence. Tip number one,
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: state your name proudly to the literary agent or acquisition
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: editor as if it's the holy gospel truth. Tip number two,
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: make direct eye contact with the literary agent or acquisition
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: editor that you're pitching to. Tip number three, Flash your
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: most disarming smile and don't forget to smile with your
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: eyes as well. Tip number four, be assertive but not abrasive.
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: A little kindness goes a long way and is infectious.
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: Tip number five, don't forget to breathe. It's okay to
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: pause during your pitch. This will give the agent or
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: editor the opportunity to ask you questions about your work.
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: Tip number six, bring a pad and pen to write
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: down any submission instructions that you are giving them. Tip
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: number seven, don't overstay your welcome. If a literary agent
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: or acquisition editor gives you a cue that your time
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: is up, take it. Tip number eight, be sure to
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: thank the agent or editor for his or her time.
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much for viewing this video and I'll
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: be seeing you soon in Oklahoma City. Bye now.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: Thanks, Leticia. Now let's talk to Michelle Lerner. Michelle Lerner,
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: welcome to the podcast.
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: All right. Here's my usual first question. If you could
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be?
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Well, I would take this with a grain of salt
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: if you're a genre writer, because I'm not. But my
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: advice would be to not be afraid to break conventions.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I have two books out, and I don't think I
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: would have written either of them probably if I hadn't
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: read a Susan Sontag essay about that was written in
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: the sixties, but felt radical to me when I read it,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe five or six years ago, um, where
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: she talked about how novelists, uh, specifically hadn't really kept
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: up with other art forms in terms of challenging the
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: rules and the conventions and throwing, you know, that a
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: lot of what we consider to be what a novel is,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: is just historical and, accident and that people really should
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: be willing to throw out backstory and chapters and things
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: like that. And literally the day I read that essay,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: I sat down and started writing my novel that came
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: out last year. And I actually don't think I ever
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: would have, you know, I was a poet before that.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: And while I had been wanting to write fiction and
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: to write nonfiction books, I don't think I would have
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: because I felt like I didn't I didn't have the
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: sense of how to write what I wanted to write
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: within the strictures of a conventional novel form. And also
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: with my memoir that's coming out now, it's not, it
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: is not a conventional memoir. It's not told chronologically. I'm
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: not the main character, even though it's my memoir. So
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I've been able to write what I wanted to write
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: by not necessarily following rules. That doesn't always work if
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: you're writing within a genre, right?
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: I think to some extent, though.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Go ahead. I think to some extent. We're just going
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: to step on each other's tongues all day, I think.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Go ahead, Laura.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: Go ahead.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Have you always wanted to be a writer? Or I
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: know that, like me, you went to law school first.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: So what was the process?
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: I did.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's paid off a thousand times since, I
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: got to say. in my work, not in my, in
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: my writing work, not in my 10 years of law practice.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: How about you? How'd you get to writing?
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've considered myself a writer since I was
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: six and I went to a summer program and discovered poetry.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I've been a poet since even while I was a lawyer,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I got an MFA in poetry and I've sort of
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: published on the side poetry, you know, for decades. I think,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I think I always wanted a, write books and specifically fiction,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: although my book that's coming out this week is a memoir.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: But I felt the pull to do something that felt
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: more practical, no insult intended to people who write as
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: a profession. I didn't have a sense of how I
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: could do that.
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: As a profession. And I was really involved in social
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: justice work in college.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: And so I went to law school in order to
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: do that. But I became disabled by illness about a
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: decade ago and had to stop working. And ironically, that
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: gave me the freedom and the time to actually be
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: able to devote to writing that I'd never really allowed
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: myself before. So I think when I started writing the
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: novel that came out last year, probably not when I started,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I think more when I was probably 50, 75% of
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: the way through, I started. thinking about this more as
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: like a long-term endeavor that would take more of my focus.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: You mentioned working for social justice. You helped establish one
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: of the nation's first animal law programs, right? At Harvard, right?
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: How did that come about?
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the, one of the initial animal law education programs.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: So I went to law school, um, because I wanted
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: to do animal law. I graduated college. Everyone thought I
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: would go to graduate school for anthropology. I was thinking
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: about it, but I was really, I did not make
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: any plans because I was really devoted to my horse Shire,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: who was elderly and disabled and required a lot of care.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: And I just sort of took menial labor jobs right
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: after college in order to be able to focus on him.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: And he died a few months after that. And because
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: I hadn't really made plans um shortly after his death
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: i found out there was a professor who taught animal
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: law at rutgers and i just and had a clinic
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and i decided i wanted to do that and applied
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: and um i had moved back in with my parents
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: and my boyfriend who's now my spouse was about to
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: leave to go to graduate school at harvard and my
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: mother had a harvard law school application delivered to the
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: house um So I applied there and got in and
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: they didn't have an animal law program. And so I
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: started an animal law student group there that then lobbied
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: for the first animal law class that was taught. And
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: it was because it was taught after I graduated, I
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: really wasn't trained as an animal lawyer. I went to
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: like a summer class in it and I would, I
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: became a legal aid lawyer for a decade before I
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: kind of gravitated back towards animal law.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: Well, I am 100% behind this. Like I get so
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: excited about animal issues. I love animals. I like knowing
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: that they're being well taken care of. So tell me,
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: why do you call your animals highly opinionated? I love it.
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: And I would like to know why you chose that term.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: I neglected to say the title of your new book.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: It's a series of opinionated animals. So please explain why.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Well, the funny thing is, I mean, so my last
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: book that came out was a very serious literary fiction
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: endeavor about grief.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: And it was Ring, right? Ring, yeah.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: And after I finished it, my intention was to start
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: working on a historical novel. And I just was not
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: really feeling.
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: It at the time.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: And my spouse said, he had just finished How to
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Be a Good Creature by Sy Montgomery. And he said,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: you should write about our animals. And I said, who's
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: going to want to read about our animals? Like a
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: lot of people have animals. It's a common thing. And
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: he said, I don't really think it's common to have
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: a disabled sheep and a squirrel and six cats with
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: feline leukemia at your house or to go to law
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: school because of your horse.
• 26:31
  Speaker 6: And I, and I thought, well, that's probably true.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: And I was in a, I was in sort of
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: an online novelists or writers forum. And I asked people
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: what they thought. And I said, you know, just as background,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: the reason he said this and the reason I think
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: about it is that I've had a series of very
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: opinionated animals and somebody wrote back saying, well, obviously you
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: should write the book and that should be your title.
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: And the reason I think I have opinionated animals is that.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: My spouse and I really very much have enabled the
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: animals that lived with us to kind of be themselves
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: and develop their own personalities and preferences, and we've kind
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: of accommodated our lives to them more than the other
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: way around. And, and as a result, they've expressed very
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: strong opinions about what they wanted or didn't want, and
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: all degrees of ridiculous quirks. And I think the point really,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: you know, it seems if you read the book, you'll
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: think I had just, you know, I'm, a magnet for
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the craziest animals imaginable. But part of the point I
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: think is that if you are able to see it
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: and allow it to develop, that most animals have pretty
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: strong opinions and will show them to you if you
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: make yourself available to them. To be honest, when, you know, I,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: I had a human child, I was pregnant for the
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: first time at 38 and given our, history with animals,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: we were really kind of terrified of how we would
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: raise a human just because of.
• 28:16
  Speaker 6: The lack of boundaries in our home.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: But our human has turned out a lot more polite
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: than any of our animals.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: 16 now, right? That's good.
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: I think all animals are very... I just don't think
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: we give them enough credit. I think that they feel more.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: I think they're smarter. I think that They all have
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: way more opinions that we maybe just don't get on
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: their level and listen to them. I see the differences
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: between our two cats. It's very strong. But when they
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: talk to us, we know exactly what they're telling us.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: One of whom is right outside that door staring at me,
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: giving me his opinion on what he thinks about being
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: locked out.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: Of the studio. Yes. Our little furry overlord says no,
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: no closed doors allowed.
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: Oh, cat take closed doors.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: You'll see mine is open just an inch. Otherwise he
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: would come and, and run into it.
• 29:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah, totally.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: Did I see something that you you had some seed
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: money from Bob Barker when you were starting your program?
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Not me.
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: No.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: After after I left, after Harvard started having an animal
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: law class, Barb Barker, I think it was.
• 29:36
  Speaker 6: $ 10 million.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: For his 50th, or I don't know, I can't remember,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: 30th anniversary or something of the Price is Right, the
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: network offered to donate a very large amount of money
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: to the organization of his choice. And he had seen
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: that Harvard Law School had started an animal law class,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: and he had the foresight of seeing that if if
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Harvard had a really developed animal law program, that that
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: would probably trigger the development of animal law education across
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: the country. And so he provided the seed money for
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: what became, it's now a big program, the Harvard Law
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: School Animal Law and Policy Program. It has a clinic,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: multiple professors, a director, students who go through it. And
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: that was started with the seed money from Bob Barker.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: And it had the effect that he intended. It is
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: now a very common thing for law schools to have
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: animal law programs.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: I love it that's amazing i love that you were
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: involved in that can you.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Talk a little bit more about your novel ring which
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: was after all long listed for the aspen words literary
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: prize and i believe it too involves animals specifically a
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: dog right.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: The yeah the ring is the the dog in the
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: novel um Yeah, the long listing for Aspen was very
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: shocking because it's with a small press. Ring is literary
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: fiction about grief and it takes place largely in the
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Canadian sub-Arctic at a kind of sanctuary for people with
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: terminal illness and somebody who's grieving goes there wanting to
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: end their life because of grieving the loss of their
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: adult child and their journey there is complicated by meeting
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: a dog who one of the other people there who
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: is dying has brought with him to the sanctuary and
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: that's Ring.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Well, then that must be a tonal contrast to a
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: series of opinionated animals where it seems to me you're
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: at least often deliberately employing humor, but you're doing it
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: to mask some more serious themes in your book where...
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: That may be more readily evident in the novel. Yeah.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: One of the writers who was a beta reader for
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: both the novel and the memoir, after she got the memoir,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: emailed me saying, if I didn't know you, I would
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: not believe the same person wrote both of these books
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: because the voice is extremely different in them. That's good writing.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Ring is very.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Ring is very serious and lyrical. I mean, there, there
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: is some, there's some absurdist humor in it. To be honest,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: when I was, I'm a very visual person. And when
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: I was writing it, I kind of imagined Tig Notaro
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: as the, the main character and the main character has
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: a little bit of Tig Notaro kind of deadpan absurdist and,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: you know, energy. So there is some humor, but it
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: is largely a book that, has some humor and hopefulness
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: that comes through a very serious approach. And this is
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: kind of the other way around. There are some serious
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: issues and emotions in this book, but they're mostly conveyed
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: through humor and a much lighter voice. To some degree,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: I think I look at.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, to some degree, I just thought, you know,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: I think my animals were very funny. But to some degree,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: I see the... the humor and the writing is a
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: little bit of a Trojan horse for being able to
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: address more serious issues that are, would otherwise seem didactic
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: or maybe not something that somebody would want to spend
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: 250 pages reading. I.
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: I said to somebody, I.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Think it was in a written interview recently that I,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I kind of see this book as the literary version
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: of cat YouTube videos interrupted by public service announcements.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: Because you dive into some pretty wild tales that, I mean,
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: probably no one could even make up. You've got like
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: a chicken who attacks people. A squirrel in love with
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: a rabbit. This is wild. And then, of course, your
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: three-legged sheep.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: Well, she had four legs.
• 34:10
  Speaker 6: Just one of them wasn't very useful to her.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: Okay. But these are all true, true stories. These are
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: the animals that are in your life, yes?
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: And the point I wanted to make is that it's
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: really a lot of fun to read. There's more going on, perhaps,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: but there's a lot of humor. And especially if you
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: love animals, you're going to love this book, I think.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Thanks.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, the intention was for it to
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: be fun to read. And most of it was fun
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: to write. I mean, I won't lie, there were parts
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: of it I was trying to write while crying, but
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: most of it was actually enjoyable to write also.
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: Well, what's next from you? I think you mentioned that
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: you've got, did you say a memoir coming out? A
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: memoir that's not about you?
• 34:57
  Speaker 6: No, this is the memoir that's not about me.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, this is the memoir.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is about me. I mean, it's my
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: life through the animals in my life.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, in fact, you know, to me, this book
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: in a larger sense is about animal personhood. But one
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: of my writing partners, when I was about halfway through
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: the book said, Oh, I, I understand the larger point
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: of this book is just how bat shit crazy you
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: and Gray are. So, you know, like, this is It
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: is my memoir, but it is told through the lives
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: of the animals. Like I actually consider it in some
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: ways a collection of biographies about my animals, but that's
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: not really.
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: A genre, right?
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Before Michelle came along.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: So, but the book that I'm working on now, sort
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: of on and off, is the historical novel that I
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: was going to write and wrote this book instead, which
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: it's a historical novel about the Shakers. Um, which, um,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: you know, the, I don't, people know them mostly for furniture,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: but they're a very radical, uh, communal sect. And for
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: a very long time, the majority of reproductive age people
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: there were women, um, because it was egalitarian and celibate
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: and women were inventors and, um, spiritual leaders.
• 36:27
  Speaker 6: And that's part of what I'm writing about.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: Sounds fascinating. Michelle, we need to wrap it up now.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: But thank you so much for being on the podcast.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Appreciate it.
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: Bye bye now.
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: Bye bye.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: Just a few parting words. WriterCon 2026 is now in
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: the rear view window, but we will be back again
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: next year. It's always Labor Day weekend, so next year
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: it will be September 3rd through 6th in Oklahoma City
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: at the historic Skirvin Hilton Hotel. We'll all be there
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: with a bunch of big, important people like our keynote speaker,
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: Hank Phillippe Ryan, one of the top mystery and thriller
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: writers in the country today, numerous New York Times bestsellers.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: And she's going to head a slate of many, many people.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: So mark your calendars and check the website soon when
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: it's updated for 2027. And we'll have the small group
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: retreat too. That's going to be in May, May 13th
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: through 16th, if I remember correctly. Let me also remind
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: you that RyderCon has its own newsletter. It's on Substack.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: Just go over there and search for RyderCon. It's completely free.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: And you'll get all kinds of wonderful articles on various issues.
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: I just did the latest one this morning, and I
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: know it's got a terrific article from Vicki Weber about
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: pitching to agents and a lot of news items about
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: new agents and what they're looking for, new publishers and
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: what they're looking for. So, If you want to know
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: more about the writing world, go subscribe to that newsletter.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: And you can also join the Facebook group, which is
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: easy and doesn't cost you a penny. Just do it
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: now and you can hear literally the latest about what's
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: going on in the writing world. I'll put a link
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: to the Facebook page in the show notes. And if
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe, rate, or review wherever
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: you get it on podcasts. We appreciate it. It makes
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: us feel seen, and it makes it easier for new
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: listeners to discover us, okay? Until next time, keep writing.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: And remember, you cannot fail if you refuse to quit.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: See you next time.