Latest / TIPS Podcast / Interview: TIPS Senior Economist, Nokwanda Maseko on Inclusive Industrial Policy

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Interview: TIPS Senior Economist, Nokwanda Maseko on Inclusive Industrial Policy · TIPS Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies Official Podcast Tips Talk, the show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Nadu Majanana, and today we are talking about all things women and economic exclusion.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: In today's episode, we'll be delving into the persistent inequalities that remain entrenched in South Africa.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Even three decades after the dawn of democracy.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Despite the progress made, many Africans, particularly African women, continue to face disproportionately limited access to essential public services, infrastructure, financial and social resources, and paid economic opportunities.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Inequality teams perpetuate itself, widening the gaps between those with access to resources and those without.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: We'll also examine how industrial policy, intended as the key driver of South Africa's economic development, has yet to dismantle the racialized and gendered structures that underpin inequality.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Join us as we unpack these critical issues and explore what needs to be done to foster a more inclusive and equitable society.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: With my special guest today, Noganda Maseko, senior economist at TIPS.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Nogwanda, thank you for joining us.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad to have you on the show today.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: We've been wanting to talk about these issues.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Noguanda's work at TIPS is at the intersection of industrial policy, gender and the just transition.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Her recent publications include an analysis of the petroleum-based transport value chain for the sector job resilience plans and technical reports for the Presidential Climate Change Commission on Gender and Inequality in the Just Transition.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: To kick things off, Nogwanda, could you share a bit about your background and why you have this deep passion for women and the inclusion in the economy?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what keeps you up at night about the state of patriarchy?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's the state of patriarchy.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so again, thanks for having me.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So my name is Noguanda Masego, as you've said, I am a senior economist here at TIPS.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have been in the industrial policy space for a few years now.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Before that, I was at the Treasury as a budget analyst.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, how do I come to women's economic exclusion?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Besides the fact of being a woman, obviously, I think part of it has been shaped by, you know, persistent, seeing the persistent inequality even in my own household, for example.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So women's economic inclusion, and as we're talking about it, exclusion really is quite important for me, particularly considering the role that women play in households.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we know, for example, that in South Africa, most of the households are headed by women.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if women are not included in the economy, then what does that say about the economic outcomes of those households?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need to think about it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And as you say, industrial policy is one of the tools that, you know, we've used to sort of achieve economic growth in this country.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what does women's exclusion from industrial policy look like?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And how does it shape, you know, the economic outcomes of the country more broadly, but also of um women more specifically?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, given your extensive experience, what keeps South African women's economic outcomes fundamentally unchanged, still racialized and gendered, structural inequality?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So part of it is that our industrial policy has been shaped by up-up-date industrial policy, which generally is, you know, more capital intensive rather than labor intensive.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I spoke about it at some point as being the hardheads industries.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we know South Africa's economy has been shaped by a culture of mining.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: We know that, you know, there's heavy industry, including petrochemicals, sassol, for example.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what that has done is shape the sort of way forward for other sectors as well.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so where we go with industrial policy is shaped by some of the you know multipliers from those particular heavy industries.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's really more recently that, well not more recently, but we're seeing some investment in, you know, industries where women are located.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: But generally, those industries are still very much underfunded compared to those heavy head industries like automotives, like for example, mining, you know, those kinds of industries, including petrochemicals, where the bulk of South Africa's money for industrial policy goes.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's important to consider those things when we talk about industrial policy and how it shapes women's participation.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we know those industries generally have very much fewer women compared to men.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so if women are not in those industries, and we define those industries as um, you know, our industrial policy, the core of our industrial policy, by that definition, we've essentially excluded women from those industries.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So would you say then a fundamental question would be having more women CEOs, would that solve the problem?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, because you know it's the nature of business, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So each business has one CEO, unless you would be at business with like two CEOs, but generally you have one CEO, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: The thing is there are more, you know, general employees than there are CEOs.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think saying that um having more women CEOs is going to change the nature of women's economic participation is not the right way to think about it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can't all be CEOs, but we can be engaged in employment that gives people, you know, decent wages.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think what's important is to think about how to involve women in those industries where there's decent wages and the work itself is decent.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than saying let's increase the number of CEOs.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um part of the work of I think gender mainstreaming, which is one of the things I criticize about gender mainstreaming, is that you know it takes women who are already in economic activity and says, let's try to see how we can, you know, empower those women and promote them.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if there's two women in the organization and we want to empower them and we promote them, it still does not solve the problem of the 10 other women outside of economic activity.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need to think about the best way to do that.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you've spoken just now about this participation or lack thereof of women in critical sectors such as manufacturing and the automotive sector, or as you call it, sectors and hard hats.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: What could be improved to get women to get access to these industries?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I suppose the question is: has that ship sailed?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Are we at a point where we can still, you know, try to include women in those sectors, but to considering the changing nature of the global economy where we're now shifting, for example, in the automotive sector, we're shifting to electric vehicles, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we're not manufacturing those in South Africa right now, but the nature of the electric vehicle is that it has fewer moving parts, and so there are already going to be people who are losing employment.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a good idea to say let's put more women in there than there already are?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily think so.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think part of the issue is the way we're thinking about industrial policy right now is really about the hardheads.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're not thinking about, you know, the different industries that are supporting industrial policy.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not thinking about education, for example, we're not thinking about healthcare.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: And those industries, for me, they are the core of industrial policy, where they not only supply the skilled labor that goes into industrial policy, but also make sure that labor is healthy enough to go to work.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so how we think about industrial policy as well is important, and also, you know, that the nature of the way we've done things is that generally those hardheads industries are more funded than you know the different industries in manufacturing where there's a lot of women.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, how do we think about the funding for those sectors?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, food processing, for example, most of the workers in food processing are women, but that industry generally receives far less funding than the automotive sector.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: So when you look at the DTIC's incentives, for example, clothing and textiles and food processing get less money than the automotive sector.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: So combined, those two sectors get less money than the automotive sector.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very important.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So do you think it's a case of interest now?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just to divert you quickly, a case of interest in automotives, women have a lack of interest in it, or do you think it's maybe literally going back to brick and mortar?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I need human physical strength and men habits, women don't?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I don't necessarily think that it's interest.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've said, you know, previously that it's not that women lack aspiration or inspiration.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time, women just lack the resources and access to these industries.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the automotive industry does employ women, for example, but part of the nature of these hard-headed industries is also that they're capital intensive.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So at some point, there's going to be less requirement for labor than there is for you know actual capital equipment.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so then we need to think about those as well, like those factors as well.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: But no, as I was saying, I don't think it's a matter of you know needing the strength or just women not being interested in those industries.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think anyone wants a job, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think anyone wants a job that they can perform well and you know have the opportunity for advancement.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if there's exclusion at the beginning, it becomes hard to integrate people into that industry unless there's a concerted effort to actually say, let's plan and figure out how to include women in these industries, which I don't necessarily think we've done well with.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean that's true.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they took over during World War I when the men were at war.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: It means we are capable, we have the strength, we have the ability, and so I really agree with you on that one, and that's a very touching point.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: But let's finalize and say, is there hope?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Let's conclude with some of your policy recommendations.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is it promising?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: What areas should we be looking at to potentially break these structural inadequacies within the industrial policy lens?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna answer the question of is the hope.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I didn't think I'm the best person to answer that one.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of the policy recommendations, I mean, I think I mentioned part of it at the start or the middle of our conversation, which is around rethinking the way we frame industrial policy.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not just about funding the automotive industry.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about funding, you know, mining.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's also about funding education and funding healthcare.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that education is facing significant cuts.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we don't have enough teachers in this country, we don't have enough nurses, we don't have enough doctors in this country, and yet the funding to those particular institutions and sectors is being cut, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to reframe the way that we think about industrial policy to include all of these supporting industries.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: They are very important industries, and we can't function as an economy without those industries.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: But more than that, I think one, we need to think about South Africa as a country that exists outside of Ghaldang, Eastern Cape, and the Western Cape, and Eastern Cape really is the automotive industry, right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: But there's five other provinces where there's significant underinvestment.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why not invest in those provinces?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're facing a crisis where everyone's now saying, yeah, but you know, there's a lot of migration into Haute.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because there's no employment in the other provinces, because there's no investment there.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so part of it is we need to invest in those provinces.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing is that, you know, we need to expand our economy to not just focus on capital-intensive industries, also consider labor-intensive industries, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the ones that have been underfunded.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So clothing and textiles, for example, food processing, those industries employ quite a lot of people and quite a lot of women.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: But again, they're significantly underfunded.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so part of it is that I think we need to rethink the way we resource industries that we consider to be part of industrial policy.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Those are just some of the basic things that we can do.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think honestly, one of the important ones for me is there's a whole country that needs significant investment, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need to think about that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: But also on the issue of just employment creation and just growing this country, growing the industrial capacity of this country.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to think more clearly about all of these um sort of small projects and programs that we've done on this.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: We need to think more clearly about the role of public employment programs, for example.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: How do we bring them into the industrial base of the country?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because it can't just be that, you know, those programs are meant to essentially have black people cut grass on the side of the road.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: What else can those people do?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: We can't just have them cutting grass on the side of the road when we barely have any road, right?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: We need we need roads in this country, we need those roads fixed.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so how do we skill those people to be able to do that as part of the work that they do, as part of the decent work that they do?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because right now we're hiding behind stipends and making people take on these very short-term jobs where there's no way that there's going to be any progression just in terms of career progression.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's all these small pockets of you know projects, and yes, I understand they're part of the employment creation opportunities or whatever, but honestly, there's a lot of needs, infrastructure needs in this country, and we have millions of people who are just doing the basics just so that they can earn a stipend, and we need to figure out how to make use of those people and the skills that they have because it can't just be that they all don't have skills, they have some skill of some sort.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that is such a vital point as we close it off.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Around making sure we're able to have women be included in our economy, you know, bring back the dignity of them, you know, contributing something meaningful to our country.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And as we conclude this episode, Noganda, I'd just like to say a heartfelt thank you to you for sharing your expertise, your passion for women's rights, your insights have really eliminated the actors keeping women from economic participation.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that is it for today's episode.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, we are live and work in societies shaped by gender differences and inequalities, factors that influence how decisions are made, resources are allocated, and people engage with the world around them.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Today, we uncovered these dynamics, shining a light on the imbalances of power and bringing them to the forefront for those with the ability to create real change.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Together, let's use this awareness to build more equitable and inclusive communities.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: To our listeners, remember that this podcast is available on our TIPS website.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: We are so grateful to have Nagwanda here with us today.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 17:40
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• 17:45
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• 17:48
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• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Nona, your host for Tips Talk, and until our next conversation, stay curious, stay away, and signing off for now.