Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 174. Friday Convos with Young Pros: Money, Promotions + Difficult Conversations - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE, and Julie Confer

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174. Friday Convos with Young Pros: Money, Promotions + Difficult Conversations - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE, and Julie Confer · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm john.
• 0:02
  Becky Endicott: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:05
  Becky Endicott: nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Happy Friday, y'all.
• 0:37
  Becky Endicott: Happy Friday, folks.
• 0:38
  Jonathan McCoy: So we're back to young professional series on the podcast, we'd
• 0:41
  Becky Endicott: love this talk. I'm having the best time with this young professional series
• 0:45
  Jonathan McCoy: seriously. So this is week three, we talked about getting your first job what to do in the first 30 days. And today, it's kind of the week I've been dreading. We're talking about difficult conversation, oh my
• 0:55
  Becky Endicott: gosh, your enneagram nine Peacemaker, I'm really proud that you showed up today. I mean, honestly, you didn't have a job, or house, your house. So
• 1:03
  Jonathan McCoy: but you know, before we dive in, we're going to talk about negotiating for more money talking about just kind of how do you navigate conflict in the office. But to set the tone, we've done this the last couple of weeks. And I want to start here, as a young professional coming into the office, if you really adopt the ethos of being hungry, being positive, being humble and enthusiastic. And you had just this commitment to learning and growth. And having humility along the way. Like that is probably the most important thing to hear. Regardless of all the tactics and situations we throw at you today. Having that posture is going to set you up for really dynamic relationships and a lot of success in your position. So just got to say that before we dive in,
• 1:44
  Becky Endicott: that's really good tone setting. And I would also say, as you're kind of navigating your career, and you're having difficult conversations, think about this, every person you're about to have a difficult conversation with has had trepidation about having a difficult conversation with someone. And so I think if you're showing up authentically, and you're expressing, you know, your true feelings, and how it makes you feel to have this conversation, you're going to connect with someone, if it's your leader, if it's a co worker, they're going to remember what that felt like. And so we're saying show up as your genuine, authentic self. And know, it's okay to not be okay about having a difficult conversation. Because it's like, again, buying tires for your car. It's necessary. We don't want to do it. But we have to address and confront conflict. But we think it's bigger than that. And today, we want to talk about how do you look at building a professional development plan for yourself? And if you look at it from a macro level about who do I want to be as a professional, where where do I want to create a niche for myself? Or where do I what kind of space do I want to work in? Yes, difficult conversations will be a part of it, advocating for promotions will be a part of it. But if you can lift yourself up and think about what is what is my angle? What is what is the dream career path for me, let that be the thing that centers you because then you know what you're fighting for?
• 3:08
  Jonathan McCoy: That is so good and spot on. Like, I just think I wish I would have had that clarity really early on in my career. Because as a manager down the road, you know, you start to have conversations, or I hope your managers have any conversations with you about where do you want to go? How do you want to grow? What's your dream for, you know, here at this organization specifically. And as you start to identify that, you can't rely on someone else to build that plan for you like, I mean, that may be a dream case, whenever you're new to the field. But if you take ownership of that saying this is your personal career, you get the chance to chase the values and the important things that are put on your calling, or heart or whatever you want to say, You are responsible for that. So you get the chance to build a professional development plan in your mind and kind of write it down to say, who do I want to be in three years, five years? What do I want to do in 10 years,
• 3:59
  Becky Endicott: and I love the idea of like fighting for that, like that is your truenorth. And here's a little pro tip for other leaders out there. If you're not asking this question, in an annual evaluation to your people, you're missing the boating, you're missing an opportunity to make someone feel entirely valued by the organization seen and uplifted by you. So please add that to your evaluation of how can I create a path for you for growth, whether it's in this organization with whether it's within the sector, we should all be pouring into every single one of our people?
• 4:33
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, because that position of leadership is a position of privilege at that point. And you need to always be thinking about how can I help others get to this position or beyond me? You know, I think that's the best leaders are those that want you to move in being successful beyond whatever they could achieve on their own.
• 4:49
  Becky Endicott: Absolutely. So let's start with building a professional development plan for yourself. So we really liked this notion because it puts all the power in your hands. And so where do we start I think here's some questions you can ask yourself, you know, what is my dream position. And when you're trying to define that, go look at some job descriptions of positions that really inspire you find people who inspire you, this is the beauty of social media, it's almost like you get a little peek. If you sit down in an auditorium, and you're looking at somebody that you don't even know up on stage that's expressing who they are, and why they choose to move forward in business the way that they do.
• 5:27
  Jonathan McCoy: And I'll jump in here because I think we talked about LinkedIn in the first of the young Pro Series and something new that they've added as the follow feature, I don't think that was around a few years ago, because it used to be you have to just like lurk on people to see what they were doing or see what their job is. But you can now follow people that are thought leaders, people that have jobs or interest that you have. And in the same way, you just get to see what they're talking about what they're commenting on. And it gives you more of a picture of like, Man, that's the type of impact I want to have. And it gives
• 5:55
  Becky Endicott: you perspective, and it gives you motivation. And I think it would even shift and grow your lens because of their lived experience. So I think looking at other people, and on social is such a great tactic. And I think you also do some self evaluation, what skills are you lacking? Do you know anyone who's currently in the space that you are wanting to move to that you could shadow or grab virtual coffee, I have had many people slide into my DMS and LinkedIn, because I have something on there. I've got my chief storyteller. I've got my co founder, but I also have empathy Guardian on that, because I want to make sure that we're however I navigate through the world that I'm always keeping empathy at the core of what I do. And I've had so many people slid into my DMS and asked me about it, and
• 6:40
  Jonathan McCoy: they're looking for college programs, like where do I go?
• 6:44
  Becky Endicott: It's been amazing to see these conversations, because they're doing things in the space, whether it's through research, or through a nonprofit, or through a for profit or social impact. And it's like having that shared dialogue. I'm happy to give somebody 30 minutes of my time to talk about that and what we're doing and we are good to cultivate that. So I'm saying be bold, do some research and be able to find your dream position. And
• 7:07
  Julie Confer: does anyone actually know their dream position? I feel like this changes a lot like in college. Yes, I really wanted to work for St. Jude's. So I remember reaching out to someone I knew that had worked there to just like, have a phone call and learn about what she did to see if I would like working there. But then if you ask me now it's like I am looking up Spotify podcasts like job descriptions to see what skills they have that I can grow in. So I think this is always going to be changing that you need to just take it for like your current position, like how can you grow, because I don't think anyone actually knows what they want to be when they grow up.
• 7:38
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, my stomach dropped that Julie wanted to go work for Spotify, my heart grew that you wanted to bring Spotify. So when
• 7:45
  Julie Confer: you guys say let's start a podcast, I didn't know what all that entailed. So I went to the podcast that I knew to see what their producers were.
• 7:51
  Becky Endicott: Yeah. And then Julie figured out how to podcasts in 30 days. And that's the kind of good spot that we're talking about. I mean, I wanted to be the media relations person for the St. Louis Cardinals. I thought that was my dream job when I was 22. And then I quickly realized, oh my gosh, I don't want to be in Media Relations at all, once I started looking around, so so that that let let your dreams flex and grow as you evolve as a human being. And I think just starting to learn and listen is so core, you know, we're growth mindset. You know, we love pouring into professional development, and we're constantly curious and wanting to grow. So look at places like hello Pro, we're for good, or for good pro we are where we have tracks every month where we're talking to young professionals, but there's other great sites that are doing wonderful things like skill sharing, Udemy and LinkedIn learning. podcasts are a wonderful resource, and many of them are free.
• 8:44
  Jonathan McCoy: And you know, I think if you're in a job that you want to go deeper in, so I think of like healthcare and higher ed, because that was our experience. But whatever vertical with a nonprofit, if you really want to achieve, you know, the heights of leadership there, you've got to become obsessed with learning everything there is to know about that sector. And so there's really great associations that do that. I mean, we were really involved with the Association for healthcare, philanthropy, we had Alice Ayres, that President on the podcast, first season, but you know, they have got really deep good content around healthcare, philanthropy, it's super nuanced. And I remember as a budding young professional in healthcare, philanthropy, the more that you understand engage on that you become increasingly valuable and can hang in those kind of conversations with leadership at hospital I mean, it's so complicated but to be able to come to the table, knowing where to add value and what a best performing shop looks like. is going to help you so that you're not where you want to specialize, if you want to specialize can really be key to this kind of initial part of your journey.
• 9:45
  Becky Endicott: And I would also say like know why the fences are there before you propose taking them down. That is such a great quote that you have taught me john, but it that means even if you don't agree with everything about the way you sector is run, understanding how it's run, understanding the nuance the political nature of it, the pain points, that is going to help you understand how you can pivot how you can grow and do something different if it doesn't completely align. But I do think understanding historical knowledge, understanding why things are set up the way they are, will help you understand how to navigate it as you go through this development plan.
• 10:25
  Jonathan McCoy: And I'm going to circle back to that when we talk about difficult conversations because that could be your secret sauce of how to navigate them from my perspective, but just also looking what are the pain points of your organization we've talked about this of in your first 30 days you're gonna start to hear things and things that you could tackle things that you could alleviate that is causing stress or strain or holding the organization back. As you start doing that, that can be part of your professional development. You know, don't think Becky really went on a riff about this like nothing is below you. If you really have that idea in your head, then everything is an opportunity for growth and if nothing else, for a story, you know that we did such thing or that you know, Becky and I batched gifts for a couple of weeks and we talked about batching we still talk about it sometimes because it was really shaping of understanding, there's a lot more happening than just the job that we're doing so
• 11:15
  Becky Endicott: nothing will humble you like batching gifts and understanding how the process works actually that was one of the the greatest things that ever happened to us was looking at the backend and all the respect if you're listening and you batch we love you Thank you forget processor, you are doing some hard work, we see you and we totally appreciate you. So another thing here's a tactic for you set three goals for yourself annually. Like I would, I would check out our goal setting episode was episode number 55. And we talked about creating goals that are that are based more around creating habits that are going to make you feel successful. So it could be examples like after this year, I want to become more x, I want to try x I want to meet with this many leaders for coffee a year I want to volunteer, you know whether it's for a committee or for a nonprofit, I want to speak up and tell my boss about a new added skill set or vertical we could add to our nonprofit, set some goals for yourself, put them on your calendar, that intentionality will help you grow as an individual. And frankly, it will make you look like a mover and a shaker to your organization.
• 12:24
  Jonathan McCoy: Seriously, I really think the biggest value in your first job is learning how to like get things done might take him from start to finish and is going to serve you in every part of your life. So are you clear on what you value what you're passionate about, and chase some of those things too, because Julie never thought she's gonna be a podcast producer. But she loved the storytelling and the threading. And I remember seeing it in small ways at our old job, you know, just she volunteered to help edit some videos one time and she transcribed them all and she came back with this most impressive script
• 12:56
  Julie Confer: ever dork, it was so fun.
• 12:59
  Jonathan McCoy: But it's hilarious because that shows you that you had this skill of being able to piece together something that's really complicated into this really coherent, beautiful story. And that's basically what you do for all of our episodes which is really nice
• 13:11
  Becky Endicott: and it's also a nod to initiative taking initiative how how many of us love someone who just takes initiative I will tell you as a leader when I had people that worked within my departments and they just took a ball and ran with it. I just felt one so proud of them that they felt that they could be empowered to do that and to I don't want to be in the weeds of everything with my people I don't want to be a micromanager so take that initiative be a Julie that's probably a theme for everything and I'm not
• 13:39
  Jonathan McCoy: saying stay in a job that you like hate forever but I also think that there's like some grit of like having some experience like it doesn't have to be your perfect dream job your first job because there's something if you have this idea that you can learn or grow wherever you're at, like there's so much you can take forward to create your dream job right
• 13:57
  Julie Confer: very wise Mimi said every season like a puzzle piece is being built in your story and so it's kind of funny with me I know I love me me Hi Mimi. But it's funny looking back cuz like in high school I was on our dance team and I would mix some of our like pep rally songs My friends and I because we thought that was fun to like mix songs together. I would have never thought flash forward 10 years later that I'm like producing a podcast but I think you naturally have some of these skills or you gravitate towards things that you like to do and if I hadn't have been all in doing that in high school it may not have led me to do certain things in college which may not have led me to my first job may not have led me to meet y'all so I think with the puzzle piece mindset it's like I guess all of this is just more of a mindset like in your current season like completely build out that puzzle piece and you may not be making it or you may be developing a skill now that you're going to use in 10 years that you're not even realizing,
• 14:48
  Becky Endicott: oh my gosh, this is the wisest person I know right time and everything is is that you know or a pebble that's being you know, casting a ripple on so seize the Those moments and I will just say the last thing that we want to say on this is, we think there was a lot of value, and taking and looking at personality test. So you've heard us talk about enneagram a lot on this podcast. And I will say, we've done desk we've done Myers Briggs, we've done true colors, we've done a lot of these things. But enneagram, to me, is the one that helps me not only see my weaknesses, but it allows me to understand how to navigate with people in my life once I know their personality type. And it kind of gives you more grace. I feel like when you walk through life when I know that john hates conflict, I know that he hates difficult conversations, I want to do something to make him feel very comfortable when those moments occur, because I know how how much anxiety it's going to give. So as people their personality types if you're a leader invest in that it is such a great coaching tool, and I think it creates empathy within teams and cohesion.
• 16:03
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• 16:36
  Julie Confer: And I think along with discovering your strings, discovering your personality, I think a lot of young professionals have a hard time discovering their passion, you may like discover it along the way. Just a lot of people maybe don't know their dream job, or they studied a certain thing in college because it's what their parents did. But Amy McLaren, we just had her on the podcast, Episode 170. And so she talked all about purpose and passion. And I think it was particularly relevant for young professionals, she just said, I think people can find purpose. But first, you have to start following what lights you up and what you're passionate about, then that's the vehicle that leads you to your purpose. So I think just to kind of tie everything we just said with a bow, I think just look for those nudges of what you're naturally gravitating towards maybe something that catches your eye on LinkedIn about a job that somebody does, because I think you'll find your purpose and your passion along the way. But it does seem daunting when someone's like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Because I think people my age are still figuring it out.
• 17:36
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, I think I know a lot of grown people say I know what I want to be when I grow up. So I feel like life crisis is a whole different topic for a quarter life. Okay, so y'all want to talk about money? Let's talk about money.
• 17:49
  Becky Endicott: I want to talk about it, do you? Yeah.
• 17:52
  Jonathan McCoy: So I'm not saying young professional. In the first 30 days, we're having these conversations, do all the things we've talked about, lean in, show some meaningful progress reached those goals, you've added so much value, and here you are a year end or maybe two years into your career, you're feeling the burn that the value that you're creating, you know, that you're bringing to the space is not married to or matched to the dollars that you are receiving for your job. What do you do?
• 18:22
  Julie Confer: dun dun dun.
• 18:23
  Becky Endicott: Okay, number one, do your research. Yep. So and I think this is probably true in anything that you're advocating for in your life is you want to come with a plan. And so you need data. And so you can look at Glassdoor and you know, there are some sub sectors that put out salary reports. And it's like, go and find out what the mean is and the median. And all of the pieces of should we talk with that even means yes, it's really different. Depending on what size of your organization and what sector you're working in, and what state you're living in. I mean, we have got to start talking about money. Let's talk about this, like our parents generation, that was a taboo topic, why are we not posting salary amounts on job descriptions that would reveal much time, time is being wasted? Because yes, let's talk about money. And let's make it you know, to where you could call somebody up and say, am I even in the right range? What are you at? Is this the right range? And if you just don't know, I would say a general rule of thumb is that it's usually appropriate to ask for about 10% more than what you're asking for. And we would say, if you have nothing that you feel comfortable asking, don't go in there and just say, I'd like to make more money, have your data, have your number and go in with your case for why you made that.
• 19:42
  Jonathan McCoy: And speaking of the case, where for why you need it. This is why we talked about this last week, but if you have been keeping a list, wherever that is on your notes on your phone, or in a Google doc or something, if you've been tracking all the accomplishments you've had start to you know really look back and try to equate that to what is It mean for the organization? What kind of value Have you created? What are the things that you've pushed forward, because it helps make that conversation seem less personal. And I would say, never make it personal. I mean, how has your role, the way you've showed up the work that you put in, move the organizational forward, and if you can be able to speak to that, like, that's gonna make the conversation a lot easier.
• 20:20
  Julie Confer: So I've heard a couple people in my life share that they like when they've had these conversations with their boss, and they may not even be asking for a raise. But I know someone who was working really long hours and ended up working and getting off at like six or 630. And so they went in and told their boss, they said a list of things they had accomplished how hard they were working, kind of like presented their case. And then they asked for 30 extra minutes at lunch so that they could go work out because they were missing their workouts leaving the office so late. So I think there's ways that you can present this where you're not sounding like a jerk, you're just sharing, I love working here, this is kind of a pain point in my life, I'm really missing having that workout, or maybe that extra thing that you're needing and just communicate that with your boss. And they'll probably usually say, absolutely, that's Yes, go ahead.
• 21:08
  Jonathan McCoy: I think it's really common for additional job duties to just get piled on. And over the course of time, like, keep note of that, too. I mean, we were coaching you to be the yes person to get in there and be willing to have nothing below you. But at some point, you're no longer doing the job you were hired to do. So the price associated with such doesn't line up. So if you're getting asked to do something more, that's also a great time of transition, to talk about money
• 21:33
  Becky Endicott: and keep those notes in the same place. You're keeping the accomplishments notes, like do it throughout the year. So it's not such an overhaul, when you come to your evaluation or when it's you want to have this conversation, I'll just share a personal story. You know, I wanted to leave at three o'clock when my daughter went to kindergarten and when I negotiated that she was five months old. So that tells you how much of a planner I am for the long game. But it's also about that was really important to me that I wanted to be mom at three o'clock, I negotiated that into my contract, even though it was going to be five years later, four years later, you know, I had built so much value over those four values that even though the when the time came, I don't think administration wanted to say yes, but they understood that they needed to, they wanted me to stay with the organization. And they had to make you know, concessions for that. So I say fight for the things that matter in your life and wrap them into your benefits just so they know what's important to you. And I
• 22:30
  Jonathan McCoy: think it's true before you get wrapped around getting earning a certain amount really assess like the new wealth these days is not just money, it's our time, it's our balance. It's where you get to work from and how and the types of projects you get to be part of and so if you just go for the money, I think you're going to sometimes be let down from what the downstream effect of that is. But if you get clear about what's this vision that you're really trying to create in your own personal life and see where that aligns, it kind of opens the conversation of what you're asking for. Maybe it is money, but maybe it's something else. So love that she kind of brought that up.
• 23:37
  Becky Endicott: Okay, we want to transition into negotiating your first job offer. So the reason that this is really important is your earnings at your current job are going to help determine the salary of your next job. And I remember a really wise mentor of mine, you know, was challenging me to go for a position and to ask for what was almost double what I was making, because he knew how much the salary was worth, and I had such trepidation about it. And I remember him looking at me in the eyes and saying, Becky, you're going to ask for that, because that's what the job is worth. And so from that moment on, that is your worth, and it can only go up. And so negotiating that first job offer potential is really important to help set a baseline for where you're going to move and know that it's a succession and an ascension, that you are only going to be fighting for your value. Because every single job every single day that you're on the job, you're adding more value to the organization, you're getting more skill sets, and you're just becoming a more seasoned professional and there is currency and value tied to that.
• 24:43
  Jonathan McCoy: And you know, I think there's a lot of big organizations, we've been part of them higher ed healthcare, we always pick on y'all on some degree. But it's because you've got this giant HR function, that price supports the bigger organization, they probably don't understand how development functions should be paid. Think about it's a really small percentage of the type of employee that they typically work with. And so knowing your worth, everything that you're saying is so critical because it's going to help you have those conversations. If you're a leader at the organization especially, you're going to have to lean into this and educate and partner with HR so they can understand how it's different, how the recruiting is different and how the talent pool is going to have that expectation when coming into the organization.
• 25:22
  Becky Endicott: And that's when your research will come into play and you will look like you have your shes together because it's really about saying I understand that that is how We can recruit or incentivize a physician, a faculty member, you know, wherever it is in your sector. But actually, in our sector, our standard promotion package is x. And we incentivize in this way. So I mean, I just think you will feel more comfortable going into negotiate that if you understand your stats, and you understand exactly where you fall within our sector.
• 25:56
  Jonathan McCoy: So as you know, you found some kind of crazy stats around this crazy. And it's kind of humbling and speaks to just the state that we're at, we're not that evolved yet as a society. So you want to go through some of those that jumped out to
• 26:09
  Julie Confer: Yeah, and this is from Forbes, and they stuck out to me when I was writing this episode, just because I'm not generalizing with so much of the nonprofit sector is led by women. And so some of these just struck me struck a chord for me. And just to kind of set the tone, it's so important to understand having these conversations, being able to negotiate your salary, whether you're coming right out of college, or you've been in this sector, because unless women take decisive action on some of this, the gender pay gap will not close until 2106. And it is 2021.
• 26:41
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, I actually thought that was a typo when you wrote it like that to be funny, like, yeah, at the rate that it's going 20 106, how do you even say that date,
• 26:50
  Julie Confer: I know, I kind of paused because I wasn't trying to say up just a few more stats just to kind of set the tone 70% of managers expect to have a salary and benefits negotiation, when they make that offer. That was something that I didn't know, coming out of college, I just wanted to be grateful for what I was being offered, I didn't maybe think that they were expecting me to counter that. And 46% of men take that risk and negotiate and only 34% of women take that risk. And but yeah, and so kind of like what Becky was saying that's, that sets the tone of the rest of your career and every salary after that. And men are offered higher salaries than women for the same job 60% of the time. So if you accept that starting offer, it's statistically probable that you're starting at a lower wage than a man and you're starting on the same day.
• 27:39
  Jonathan McCoy: So I feel like there's a call to action there is, you know, be equipped and really know the value of the position, the value that you're bringing to the table, and the stats. So not being afraid, in a humble, kind way, having those conversations, it's going to set you up to be on a much different trajectory having on the onset, and Can I just add this, if you do negotiate at the beginning, it sets the tone for the type of organization you're stepping into, you know, I'm not saying going in demanding, but understanding how they respond and what the feedback is may give you a lens into what you're walking into. So it's probably good to know watching and seeing what they say,
• 28:14
  Becky Endicott: if you can show up and say, This is what I believe I'm worth this is what I believe my value is and approach it very kindly, but very firmly, you know, someone will take note of that, that you know, you are somebody who knows what they want. And ladies, we have got to step up, speak out, and we have to fight for our worth. And that is your challenge, because we have got to figure out how to close that pay gap, that gender pay gap that is existing. And I will tell you as a young professional, I had a problem with that. It's very hard to speak up when you're feeling like the youngest in the room when you are the the most inexperienced, but we're saying that everybody brings value to a team. And so think about what yours is, and negotiate accordingly.
• 29:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, so I feel like I feel a little responsible that we've brought you into such heavy topics, young professional, we're not trying to make you feel down about this, but to feel inspired and empowered Howard, that knowledge is power in this for sure. So let's talk a little bit about difficult conversations. The reality is if you're going to show up, and you're going to change the world, that your organization, you're going to have some difficult conversations, you're going to have personality conflicts, you're going to have disagreements about how something should be done, people are not going to follow through when they should have followed through on something. Countless amount of things are going to happen. And so we want to talk about how do you show up to those conversations? How do you get ready because they're going to happen, or they better be happening, if the real works getting done.
• 29:46
  Becky Endicott: Okay, so the first one is we're kicking back to our number one core value as a tactic for you start with the idea that everyone matters. So be kind in your approach, make someone feel seen and important. And that immediately is going to disarm their defensiveness. And so if you can kind of come in with open hands wide heart, and a sense of wanting to come together, that's going to help you immensely at the onset of the conversation.
• 30:14
  Jonathan McCoy: And what's the adage that it's like it's more reflective of what the person is going through experience wise, probably than what is actually happening. So I think understanding that coming out with empathy is huge. And I would say the second one is really knowing the purpose of the conversation, which sounds kind of obvious, but it really isn't like what is the real goal that you're trying to get accomplished? I don't like office drama for people that worked with me before. Like I as an enneagram, nine and just in general, I like I'm an optimistic like to be surrounded by optimism. So it always dragged me down to be near that. And I think the thing that I noticed most is that people start arguing over stuff that doesn't even really matter at the end of the day. And it's like, if you can get really centered to what is the goal, what was the objective here, let's remove some of the personality conflict pieces, that's when you can have a real solid conversation about it, the personality thing needs to be addressed in a different way. But for the purposes of the organization, moving whatever project forward, can you get clear on what the goal is, and that's going to help you center and not make it personal. But make it about just we're trying to get this done for the sake of whatever impact you're trying to make.
• 31:18
  Julie Confer: And I found this blog post from haven life, we'll drop it in the show notes. And it was interesting for me to read through because I'm early on in my career. So I may not have faced some of these types of conversations, but they're inevitable, and they actually give you scripts at the bottom of the blog post. You don't have to go in and be a robot and follow the script. But it's interesting to read through, they give you examples of how the conversation can go, how you can start the conversation around. When a personality clashes with with your team, when an employee doesn't meet expectations. When an employee disagrees with a promotion, it just maps out all of these different scenarios. And so it's kind of an interesting read that we'll drop in the show notes.
• 31:55
  Becky Endicott: Oh, that's a really helpful resource. I think the next one that we're talking about is aim for understanding. And so what we mean by that is you're going to have an objective john talked about have a goal for the conversation. But you need to walk into this, knowing that there are two sides to the situation. And pushing your own agenda without being an active listener to the other side is not going to allow you to have resolution. So go in with an open mind and an aim for understanding and know that you're going to have to accept whatever comes your way, stop, consider it work through it.
• 32:29
  Jonathan McCoy: And you know what we used to joke about this, but I think the power of the compliment sandwich is always helpful. You know, always leading in with just expressing your gratitude, show that you're centered and understand what the bigger thing is, talk about the problem and then leave and just say I'm so glad we're in this together. I mean, ultimately, we are going to move past this, we're going to, you know, take this and turn it into momentum moving forward. But having the positive on both sides truly does change the narrative, at least in my perspective,
• 32:56
  Becky Endicott: amazing. So here's a pro tip for leaders, check in often. Recognize, affirm, redirect, if it's appropriate, commend. And it's really about seeing your people and allowing them to sit in their feeling of what they're feeling, making sure that you're checking in often and keeping your finger on the pulse of that situation. And when somebody is doing something great. I think about this, even in parenting, when my kids do something really great. I want to commend and reinforce that it's really no different here.
• 33:28
  Julie Confer: I love that. Okay, so I have a few in closing rapid fire questions for both of you, since y'all are a little ahead in your career than me. And so our first question is, what's an example of a moment when you ask your boss for something, or you felt like you truly negotiated something for yourself?
• 33:44
  Jonathan McCoy: You know, Becky hired me at right out of college. And my wife Candace, and I had planned to go overseas. To me, that was like a dream job. If you hear me talk about it, I was so excited to use design in the nonprofit world to like, perpetuate the mission of OSU love my university. But we just both had knew we wanted to go overseas to be part of this mission. And it was kind of like this thing you could do with a certain period of time as this program. And so I just had to get up the guts to like walk into our office and say, Hey, so this sounds like a compliment sandwich. I love it here. But you know, we really feel called to go do this for a year of our life. I don't know what that means long term. I don't know if we're gonna stay the rest of our life, just being completely candid with you. But just wanted to put that out there. I said, I didn't want to start fundraising to go without telling you. Because that's just kind of my DNA. I didn't want to go like behind Becky's back and like raising to leave the country and she has no idea that we're doing I probably put it out there. And here's an evolved leader. That was 15 years ago, Becky sat across the table and said, as your manager you know, so sad that you would be leaving, but as your friend, I am so thrilled and I want to be the first donor to y'all going you know, what does she always do get out her checkbook. Now she gets out her debit card, but I mean that's an evolved leader and I would say you know, I didn't go in to negotiate but having the vulnerabilities just be really clear about what we wanted to do. Set the course for that conversation to take a really unique way. When we ultimately went for a year we stayed in contact we did what you know you do to keep relationships intact. When we came back, there was just a space for me on this team Becky made a space for me to come back on the team. And it just worked that way. You know, I think when you when you lead with that type of, I don't know, relationships, you're opening yourself up for those types of things to happen. And having an evolve leader like Becky also helps to Well, that's
• 35:41
  Becky Endicott: very kind. But I also remember that conversation and knowing you now, and knowing how hard difficult conversations are, I was, gosh, it must have taken you forever to come into my office. And I remember in the moment, thinking to myself, john is so special, and in what he what he does, and who he is, as a human, I don't want to lose any of that. And so I remember saying, I will hold this position for you, when you come back. I think the moment that I want to talk about AI, it's on the top of my head, because I just referenced it is, you know, I worked at our local science museum here in Oklahoma City, and I'm going to talk numbers here. And I read and I, my starting salary was $24,500. So this is 2002. And it was a tough time, if you can imagine. So I graduated the year after 911. And the job market was very difficult. And so I was so proud to have a job $24,000 sounded great. And when I was offered my job at OSU, my mentor had called and said, Look, it's a $50,000 job. And at that time, I couldn't even wrap my mind around how much money that was. And I felt so inferior to be able to negotiate that, but I did the same thing. I steeled myself and I went in there and I asked for 50. And my boss, who would be my boss later said, Tell you what, I'm going to give you $48,500 and then let's reassess how we're doing at six months. And then we'll add that 1500 back in there to get you up to 50. You know, if things are going well, and I said, that's great. I mean, he could have said 30,000. And I said yes, which again. But here's here's the real story. Nine months in, I still remember that 1500. And he's completely forgotten about it. And he's never brought it up. And so I am in the office of one of my mentors and incredible woman named Marsha wooden, and something comes up about this. And I kind of confess to her that I haven't gone in and asked for this. And I remember her turning around, and looking me straight in the eye. And she says Becky, and this is again, this is like 2005 probably, she said Becky, women do not fight for their worth in this sector. You have shown up, you have done the work, you have done it well. You need to steel yourself, get your courage and walk in there and ask for it because that is what you're worth. And I remember feeling so jarred by that like, oh, okay, I wasn't aware of that. I walked in, and he said, Oh, my gosh, I completely forgot about it. Yeah, it's done. It was that easy. But it was all about me finding the courage within myself. I feel like Julie ordinates talks about this all the time in her courage lab, it was really about me, it had nothing to do with the organization. So that was a time when I had to negotiate something. And I went in and asked for it. And it was easy peasy.
• 38:44
  Julie Confer: Awesome. Okay, what have you both learned throughout your careers about navigating difficult conversations.
• 38:51
  Jonathan McCoy: Also, you know, one of the harder conversations I had was, when I was leading annual giving for healthcare philanthropy, there was this beloved huge event that had really run its course and on paper, it made a lot of, it didn't make sense, in person, it made a lot of sense, it made a lot of money, it was a, you know, everybody in the room was crying, it was a really kind of moving thing to be a part of. But the numbers like truly didn't make sense, as we looked at the long term sustainability of it. In fact, it was like pulling back our ability to be successful in other ways, because it was double dipping. And there's, there's a whole map there. And I knew that I needed to walk into the top level of the organization, top level of the heads that are running this, and I felt really unqualified to come into that room and to recommend that this beloved thing just be put to rest. But what I did, and it's what we've walked through today is that having an actual plan, you know, doing research and having the knowledge truly does give you the power. And when you start arming yourself, and Becky talks about putting on the armor all the time, it's like if you armor yourself with you've done research, you've looked across the country at other, you know, really solid examples, you know, your data better than anybody in the room, you can walk in there with a logical plan. At the end of the day, most people are really logical, you know, thinkers and this, if you can present that case, I was so like taken aback how everybody in the room was like, of course, let's just cut it sounds great. And I had put it in my head that it was going to be this difficult conversation. And I think it would have been if I wouldn't have been able to come in with the case, you know, but people want to have the path illuminated and if you can make that really clear for them. It can kind of disarm them and the Process two, and there just builds this trust.
• 40:36
  Becky Endicott: Well, and I think I know what report you're talking about. And that was a beautiful case for why that event needed to be sunset, but you also met someone in the space that that you were at, that they were at. So you're talking about executives, being counters, they're looking at the numbers and the data you were able to pull that talks about how it's actually inhibiting growth. You made it so easy to say, yeah, this is the right business plan, so good for you. I mean, I would just say in terms of navigating difficult conversations, you have to know thyself, like here's, I know about me that I am emotionally impulsive, especially when I think someone has been wronged that there is an injustice that I want to go fight for. So I've learned that I've got to take a pause and take a hot minute. And I need to really consider a measured course of action. So once I've done that, and I have the plan to do it, I that's when I feel more confident to go into those conversation. And I just think too many people fear the conversation, which leads to greater anxiety, and trepidation. So once you have your plan, pull that band aid off as quickly as you can go in there be kind and it'll help set the tone and I think you'll move through it quicker.
• 41:46
  Julie Confer: A common theme I'm hearing throughout all those answers is just that. All these conversations around asking for a raise, having difficult conversations, the temporary discomfort or the fear around them, is worth the long term meaningful impact. Because I'm thinking if I asked for a raise my great great great great granddaughter may have a better chance to not be suffering from this gender pay gap. If you are sunsetting an event the long term benefit of your organization will be impacted. So I think just lean into that temporary discomfort because it's only going to reap long term, meaningful impacts so
• 42:23
  Becky Endicott: holy smokes Julie, if I had thought about going to fight for myself as a way to help uplift my daughters. Yeah. They're faster. That is a brilliant idea. Hearing
• 42:34
  Julie Confer: y'all talk about it, it that just kind of resonated with me because it's we're making it about ourselves and our fear and just do it scared, you got it.
• 42:42
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, so how do we wrap up this conversation, I think there's so much for everybody to take here. But next week, we're actually taking a week off from the young pro conversations, and we're giving you an entire week of mental health resources conversations. And y'all I don't know what to say other than we have been like deeply moved by some of these conversations, they're changing us personally, they're causing a lot of self reflection, because we believe there's just a time of reckoning happening in our sector, that a lot of us feel burnt out, a lot of us feel stressed out. And the nature of the work that we do kind of pulls us into that space, compassion, fatigue, all the kinds of psychological
• 43:19
  Becky Endicott: safety, all of it, I am so excited about mental health week, because we are going to open this Pandora's box that that I feel like we just don't talk about it enough in our sector. And it's just been very humbling to open that box, and to allow people to come into this space and share their story. And I hope it moves your heart, I hope it causes some self reflection in you, I hope you will look into the resources and be an active part of pouring into this in the community. You know, we have we're for good community calm. It's a free resource in a place where we're going to be pushing a lot of these conversations. So if you want to be in a safe shared space to talk about your own experience, know that you have friends around you who are going to support you in that. So please come check out mental health week next week. And then we'll be back the Friday after that finishing up our young Pro Series. And this one is going to be directed at our more seasoned nonprofit professionals. And we're going to tell you about how do you attract young professionals into your work. We're going to talk about connecting purpose to your work building the culture you want to see. And that's very attractive to young professionals and how are you committing to growth opportunities for young professionals so it's going to be an awesome combo and we hope to see you there.
• 44:38
  Jonathan McCoy: So in short, don't stop listening. lean in. This is a community there's a table we want to hear from you so we can continue to curate the conversations that will help you feel more inspired and more courageous to do the hard things.
• 44:50
  Becky Endicott: We're glad you're here.
• 44:52
  Julie Confer: Hey friends, thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics. Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community it's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for goods comm backslash Hello. One more thing if you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and Your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is sunray by Remy Boris boom