Latest / HFL Education / How can school leaders create a sustainable SEND provision?

Transcript

How can school leaders create a sustainable SEND provision? · HFL Education

• 0:02
  Hello and welcome to the HFL Education Business Services podcast.
• 0:06
  I'm Catherine Loake, the director of business services here at HFL education.
• 0:09
  We wanted to bring you these podcasts because we recognise that the role of school leadership is growing ever wider and ever deeper, and finding the time to unpack some of those key issues away from frontline teaching and learning is becoming increasingly challenging.
• 0:20
  So that's where we come in.
• 0:22
  And this week I'm joined by Sandra Sculley, who's one of our consultant business managers here at HFL.
• 0:26
  Hello Sandra.
• 0:27
  Hello, Catherine.
• 0:28
  Thanks for having me.
• 0:29
  So this is the one I've been really looking forward to.
• 0:32
  The hot topic of the moment.
• 0:33
  We're going to be talking about sustainable SEND.
• 0:36
  Sardra I wanted to start with what should seem like a really obvious answer and simple answer to a question, but you and I both know it isn't.
• 0:46
  And we see lots of different interpretations of the term sustainable SEND.
• 0:50
  So when we talk about sustainable SEND provision, are we talking about provision that is financially sustainable, provision that is educationally sustainable and effective, or are we talking about balancing the two?
• 1:06
  Ideally we're balancing the two and it's a mix of both however reality is a little bit different to that.
• 1:12
  So financial sustainability is something that obviously is it something we can afford to do and we can afford to do it, you know, for a medium term for a period of time.
• 1:21
  But it's got to have good outcomes for the pupils that we're providing the support for.
• 1:26
  So it has to work together.
• 1:28
  It's becoming increasingly difficult for that to happen.
• 1:31
  And I think schools are sort of really struggling to get that balance.
• 1:34
  They have the pressure on them to provide a lot of things that are very small pot of money.
• 1:40
  So, you know, at the moment it's a difficult one to balance.
• 1:43
  And so is the system set up to deliver balance.
• 1:48
  Or does the system inherently lead us to this tension between financial sustainability and educational effectiveness?
• 1:56
  And because you spend an awful lot of time now in schools trying to get schools to a place where their budget is within reasonable parameters and their SEND provision is delivering, so are you seeing this, this growing tension and is it getting worse or better, or how does it look?
• 2:12
  Currently from my perspective the system doesn't work and schools are struggling big time.
• 2:18
  We've got an ever increasing cohort of pupils coming in with more difficult and complex needs going into mainstream school.
• 2:26
  The impact on everybody across the school that that has.
• 2:30
  And also we are having to divert funds from mainstream education within those schools in order to support that SEND.
• 2:38
  So it's a very difficult one.
• 2:40
  I'm seeing more and more schools that are really struggling to balance that and that's where we spend a lot of our time now looking in detail at what the provision is that you're providing, how much that is costing.
• 2:52
  There is no right or wrong to any of it.
• 2:54
  It's, you know, it should be focused on the child and what's educationally important for that child to be able to access education for them to be able to develop and for outcomes for those pupils.
• 3:06
  However, you've got to do that within the constraint.
• 3:08
  So it's a very difficult one for schools to balance.
• 3:11
  And I think most schools we go into these days are really struggling to balance that.
• 3:16
  And so do you have got many strings to your wonderful bow.
• 3:20
  One of them is you're an accredited schools resource management adviser, or SRMA.
• 3:24
  And in that capacity, you're kind of parachuted into academies and trusts by the DfE to find cost savings.
• 3:32
  And I'm conscious that a lot of that work hinges on benchmarking and looking at what schools are spending.
• 3:38
  Is there anything we can learn from the SRMA process when it comes to sustainable SEND?
• 3:44
  Or are we talking about much more complexity with SEND which means that benchmarking just isn't appropriate here?
• 3:51
  So with the SRMA, what we're seeing now, and it's the same when we look at schools in Hertfordshire as well is that most schools have done all the basics.
• 4:00
  The cost cutting has already been done.
• 4:02
  We've looked at the contracts, the sort of things that you can benchmark, we've already looked at.
• 4:06
  So we might have looked at catering contracts the cleaning contracts, that sort of thing.
• 4:10
  So where they would have been, the things we would have said maybe five years ago.
• 4:14
  Have you looked at your contracts register, go through it.
• 4:17
  Have you gone out to tender benchmark yourself against other schools you know, similar area or similar size, that sort of thing.
• 4:25
  That was fine, but the issues now are different.
• 4:28
  So most schools have already done all that sort of thing.
• 4:30
  So benchmarking doesn't really help with the SEND because every child is an individual.
• 4:36
  Every child has different needs and every school, the context for every school is completely different.
• 4:41
  it isn't a straightforward contract anymore.
• 4:44
  So from my point of view, I don't think benchmarking really helps when you start doing staff comparisons.
• 4:50
  You know, the number of support staff in schools you can benchmark, you know, what other schools have got.
• 4:55
  But again, it's down to your individual cohort of children.
• 4:58
  It's not a one size fits all.
• 5:00
  Whereas when you're looking as I said, a contract, give the example for catering.
• 5:04
  It's quite simple right?
• 5:06
  You've got 300 children.
• 5:07
  This school is spending X amount and this school spending Y amount.
• 5:10
  Why is there a difference.
• 5:12
  You know that's quite straightforward.
• 5:14
  That's not straightforward at all.
• 5:15
  When you're looking at pupils, pupils outcomes and pupils education and what that's costing the schools.
• 5:21
  So is this probably about a balanced conversation then.
• 5:25
  And I'm just thinking in terms of getting this right because we're we're as HFL being asked increasingly to go into schools and effectively make sure schools are providing sustainable SEND provision.
• 5:37
  Is this about bringing business management professionals together with education professionals and having informed discussions about are there other ways?
• 5:45
  What does this child need?
• 5:46
  What does this look like. Absoutely.
• 5:48
  And reaching that compromise rather than it being a pure financial decision or a pure educational decision?
• 5:53
  Absolutely.
• 5:54
  I think that's really, really important.
• 5:55
  I can make decisions.
• 5:57
  I can give you the facts and figures and I can say, right, you can only afford X, Y, or Z but I'm not the educationalist and I can't make those educational decisions and I don't have the expertise to do that.
• 6:07
  So you need to bring in the people with the expertise and for us to work together and find solutions.
• 6:12
  You know, in some schools where they've created a hub, for example, they've moved away from the idea of 1 to 1 support, and that works with the the group of pupils that they've got with the group of needs that those pupils have that doesn't work in every school, because if pupils have got a range of different needs, then the educationalist will say, well, actually, we need one teacher be teaching this and somebody else to be teaching that.
• 6:36
  So it just depends on the context of every school and the different environments that they're in but absolutely, we have to work together and go in as a as a team to have a look at the issue that schools facing.
• 6:48
  You just hit on something that really interests me.
• 6:50
  So obviously schools have children with SEND but they're not the same children.
• 6:57
  So the needs of one cohort might look completely different to a different to the next cohort.
• 7:01
  So you might create an internal alternative provision, for example, to meet the needs of your cohort.
• 7:06
  But you might find in two/three years time that's completely the wrong provision.
• 7:10
  So when it comes to kind of the financials inclusion and SEND, is it a one off big injection of money we're talking about to get to a place of inclusion or are we talking about, you know, a constantly be like the Forth Bridge with constantly kind of reassigning what it is we need When you first take a pupil in and they've got SEND you're going to have upfront costs because that child is completely unique and you might have someone that's had something similar, similar diagnosis or something, but they might have had other issues as well.
• 7:39
  So each child is completely unique.
• 7:41
  So you have to the upfront cost is going to be your staff training, the capacity to support that child, any extra provisions that they may need, there is going to be an upfront cost.
• 7:51
  And then following on from that, there's going to be a medium term cost for those pupils as well, because you're going to have to keep all those provisions, all that support in place.
• 8:00
  So for schools it's very difficult because early intervention we all know is the best thing you can can possibly do for a child.
• 8:07
  So to provide that early intervention.
• 8:10
  The school has that upfront cost.
• 8:12
  But what the school is actually doing is by providing that early intervention is saving money in the long term local authorities having to put in social services support, that sort of thing in place because they are dealing with the issue at the very start of that child's education.
• 8:29
  Schools do get the brunt of the cost.
• 8:32
  And also at that point, you know, if a child needs an EHCP it's probably not in the in the process.
• 8:38
  You know, it's not started.
• 8:40
  So schools are paying for that themselves as well.
• 8:42
  So the onus is a lot on schools to to do that.
• 8:46
  But yeah it's an upfront cost particularly staff training.
• 8:49
  Staff have to understand teachers and support staff.
• 8:53
  You know what the needs are of that pupil.
• 8:55
  There's so many different diagnosis and it's almost impossible to understand every single one.
• 9:01
  And that I think that training piece is really important and one that resonates with with me, because, again, I'm conscious that the number of TA’s, the DfE workforce data came out a couple of weeks ago, didn't it? It’s really fascinating.
• 9:15
  And we can talk about this as a whole new podcast but the number of staff in offices has markedly decreased whilst the number of teaching assistants has increased.
• 9:23
  And we know it's not those same people that have gone from offices to teaching assistants these are new people coming through.
• 9:27
  So effectively, we're taking people with no experience of education or children with SEND and we're putting them sometimes in a position of 1 to 1 support for pupils.
• 9:37
  We can't do that without significant investment in training, can we?
• 9:41
  No absolutely.
• 9:41
  That's something that isn't always prioritised in schools.
• 9:45
  And also that, you know, teaching assistant doesn't have the qualifications that the teacher has.
• 9:50
  The teacher is the one that's gone to university.
• 9:53
  You know, I'm not I'm not taking anything away from teaching assistants.
• 9:56
  But do they have that expertise.
• 9:58
  So absolutely, CPD, training is the most important thing for those.
• 10:02
  And also they've got to have the ability to work with the child for 5 or 6 hours a day maybe.
• 10:09
  That can be very challenging if you don't have that training in that, that background.
• 10:15
  So it's that, again, that balance between finding that money because that's essential to the child making the required progress, but that that drag of the budget is as well.
• 10:26
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:27
  It's a it's a constant tension.
• 10:28
  It's a constant fight between, you know, we want the best outcomes for our pupils, but we've only got limited resources in which to do it.
• 10:35
  And nothing we all know nothing is cheap.
• 10:38
  And you know, if you don't spend enough, you're not going to get good enough outcomes.
• 10:43
  And I think I know what you're going to answer to this next question.
• 10:45
  So if you see if I'm thinking is aligned here and if not I'm going to say it.
• 10:49
  What do you think, Sandra, is the most common misconception when it comes to SEND funding?
• 10:54
  I've got two actually.
• 10:56
  It's the first one is everyone thinks that the funding follows the child, that there's a pot of funding and a child goes into school and they've got they've got a diagnosis and there's a pot of funding and it follows that child, which is not actually how it works.
• 11:12
  And nine times out of ten, if the child has funding allocates them, it's nowhere near it's not going to be sufficient enough.
• 11:20
  The school is still going to have to put some money towards that.
• 11:23
  Which leads me on to the second.
• 11:25
  And my little bugbear is the notional SEND allowence.
• 11:28
  That's where I was going.
• 11:30
  And what I would say to you is look up the word notional and it means theoretical.
• 11:36
  Unreal.
• 11:37
  There's so many definitions of the word notional and what the notion of allowance £6,000 per pupil schools are supposed to put towards a child's SEND education prior to having any other funding.
• 11:51
  But that's not an extra pot of money.
• 11:53
  That's it's not real money.
• 11:55
  It's a benchmark.
• 11:56
  It's an idea that actually, this is probably what it might cost you to support a child with basic additional needs.
• 12:03
  But it's not real.
• 12:05
  It's not a real pot of money.
• 12:06
  It's not based on anything.
• 12:07
  Depending on what school you're in and what area you're in there's a whole formula and that to me it's a real misconception.
• 12:15
  And I think local authorities, you know, really stick to it.
• 12:18
  You've got to spend your £6,000 before we're going to help you with anything.
• 12:22
  Before you can apply for an EHCP you've got to prove that you're spending this.
• 12:26
  Well, that's fine in theory, but if you're in a school where you might have and some of our Hertfordshire schools do have 25%, pupils with SEND then your notional pot that's been made up of all these different areas is not going to cover your 25 children.
• 12:43
  So it's just not and it's a real bugbear.
• 12:46
  It's an unfair amount for schools to have to stick to.
• 12:52
  And it depends on the context of the schools whether they can afford to do that or not.
• 12:55
  I think it should just be taken out completely, schools are always going to be subsidising their pupils with SEND.
• 13:01
  I couldn't agree more.
• 13:02
  But we see it baked into other things as I don't we.
• 13:04
  So when we see specialist units in mainstream for example, being developed often, that's part of the funding basis that the notional SEND send funding is the first block of that and I think that that doesn't really exist.
• 13:18
  It doesn't make sense, because if you didn't have those special needs children in that school, that block that doesn't really exist wouldn't have to be paid out.
• 13:27
  You wouldn't have to use it.
• 13:28
  You'd use it on mainstream.
• 13:30
  So it's just not a real it's not a real pot of money and you can't use it in that way.
• 13:36
  I just think it's a real misconception that hopefully will be addressed once the white paper is established, and we might start looking at different ways of looking at funding.
• 13:45
  And I guess we've talked Sandra a lot about the challenges in this space.
• 13:50
  And and I know you spend an awful lot of time out in schools, school leaders in tears, frankly, because they can't make the sort of provision and the budget balance.
• 14:01
  And they're under huge pressure, understandably, to make that budget balance.
• 14:06
  Are you seeing any kind of causes for optimism, and if so, where are the sort of chinks of light coming from?
• 14:12
  I think one is the teachers, head teachers are looking at this in different ways now because it used to be a child will come in and you'd allocate them a 1 to 1.
• 14:21
  And we know that whatever funding you get, that's always going to a deficit to your budget.
• 14:26
  because we know it's going to cost you £30,000 to have a 1 to 1, give or take, and you're never going to be funded at that level.
• 14:33
  So we're moving away from that scenario of 1 to 1 support.
• 14:37
  Some pupils are always going to need 1 to 1 in order for them to access education and be in school.
• 14:43
  So it's not that we're getting rid of it completely, but that is where I see schools moving away from.
• 14:48
  And I think that's an area of optimism.
• 14:50
  And I think that's a great thing, because actually the idea is that you have an inclusive education, and when you’re sat 1 to 1 with a pupil, how inclusive is that?
• 15:00
  They're still not quite in the school classroom.
• 15:03
  An area of optimism as well is the white paper.
• 15:06
  the way we're looking at things, the system has to change.
• 15:09
  Absoutely.
• 15:10
  And this is a good, you know, it's going to take a few years to come through.
• 15:14
  And for everything, you know, schools to get used to it as well.
• 15:17
  The problem is the system and that changing that system it's so important to have that intervention early on and to allow the schools to do that and to fund the schools to do that, to increase training and both teachers and support staff, the use of therapists within schools as well, which we you know, when I was in a school maybe ten years ago, we'd have an occupational therapist, a school nurse.
• 15:41
  Schools can't afford that anymore.
• 15:43
  And you can't get that provision anyway because there's such a lack of it.
• 15:48
  So to bring that available to schools and had that funding for schools is going to be.
• 15:53
  So I'm really optimistic about what's going to come in with the white paper.
• 15:58
  It will take a few years to come through, at the moment we've just got the new fund.
• 16:02
  We shouldn't get too excited about that.
• 16:03
  That's not a huge amount of money.
• 16:05
  Especially if you're a small school.
• 16:06
  Especially if you're a small school, maybe £10,000 on average for a school that isn't a huge amount of money, but it will help with staff training and development.
• 16:14
  It's not the pot of gold that we'd all like to see.
• 16:16
  And one of the causes for optimism I see potentially is the move away from EHCPs ISPs in mainstream.
• 16:25
  Because you said really eloquently, that every child is individual and you might have two children with the same diagnosis but with different presentations.
• 16:32
  And actually at the moment EHCP funding certainly in our locality comes in bands, doesn't it?
• 16:37
  So you get the same amount of funding, even though children might be presenting completely differently.
• 16:42
  And actually there needs in terms of provision might be quite different.
• 16:45
  So again, I know funding is going to be tight.
• 16:48
  We're never going to get away from that.
• 16:50
  I can't see suddenly a magic money tree appearing in the education sector.
• 16:54
  But I like the idea of ISPs, the I in ISP being individualised and actually schools really beginning to think about, okay, so what is the provision I need to provide for that child?
• 17:04
  And how do I sort of take that from my, inclusive mainstream SEND funding budget?
• 17:10
  So I think that's a potential chink of light we see coming down the track as well.
• 17:14
  Absolutely.
• 17:15
  And it is about that individual child.
• 17:17
  And you know, when when a child joins the school, the most important thing is that the the educationists are looking at that child.
• 17:24
  What does that child need.
• 17:25
  Let's forget about the money for one for a moment.
• 17:28
  What does that child need to be able to access education?
• 17:31
  What can we do to make sure the outcomes that child are going to be excellent throughout their education?
• 17:36
  And then we can look at the money and then we can look at where we can get that funding from and how we can do that.
• 17:41
  That's really how it should work.
• 17:43
  Not oh, we've got £5,000.
• 17:46
  How are we going to do this?
• 17:47
  It's got to be that individual child and what that individual child needs That's the future, which I think we're both agreeing is quite exciting.
• 17:56
  And back to sort of the here and now, both of us are increasingly working with with school leaders in distress, frankly, because they this is such an emotive area, isn't it?
• 18:07
  Because when you've got a child who has unmet needs that's really difficult to see us as a human, let alone as a as a school leader who are kind of responsible for their their education.
• 18:18
  So where you come across sort of school leaders who who are breaking down, who aren't sleeping, what's the one piece of advice you would give to them if they're really struggling to find a balance between the financial costs of SEND provision and the kind of educational effectiveness of what it is they need to provide?
• 18:36
  Well, I think first of all, it's one we always say and I always say to all my teachers, head teachers, you know, you're not alone in this.
• 18:43
  You know, you're not the only school, you're not the only head teacher.
• 18:47
  And we are here to help.
• 18:48
  So there's plenty of us here who will do everything we can to support you through.
• 18:53
  And it's such a challenge. It really is.
• 18:55
  So I think that's the first thing, is that you're not alone.
• 18:58
  And, you know, we don't have a magic wand.
• 19:01
  We can't say, oh, yeah, here you go here's an extra £20,000 for that particular pupil.
• 19:05
  We can't do that.
• 19:06
  But we can have a look at, you know.
• 19:09
  Well, actually, have you considered this?
• 19:10
  Have you looked at the school down the road that's doing it in this way.
• 19:14
  So we can because we're in and out of schools all the time, we can sort of say, well, actually there's some really good practice going on there.
• 19:21
  Have you thought about trying that so we can give some advice I can say, well, actually, that's not very cost effective.
• 19:26
  You're doing it that way.
• 19:27
  Have you considered doing it a different way?
• 19:29
  But it's their decision educationally whether they can do that or not.
• 19:33
  And that to me hits the nail on the head that this isn't about one person having the answers.
• 19:39
  This is now about a village, isn't it?
• 19:40
  And actually bringing together that, that business management expertise with that educational expertise and coming up with with a soultion a really important that everyone is kind of bought in to, but also bringing kind of parents and carers on the journey as well, because, you know, it's important that we're doing this as a as a team.
• 19:59
  And that's the very spirit of the white paper sort of coming.
• 20:01
  Yeah.
• 20:02
  We're looking as a as a team around a child.
• 20:04
  Absoutely it's really important.
• 20:05
  It's communication is key, as we always say, but it is really, really important.
• 20:10
  And also that if you can't afford to do something, you generally can't.
• 20:13
  You know, I really want to do this, but I can't just be open and honest about it.
• 20:17
  Sometimes you do have to say no.
• 20:19
  Sometimes we do have to say, actually, I can't meet that need, but I can do X, Y, and Z and just do the very best that you can.
• 20:26
  That's not ideal and that's not going to give the perfect outcomes.
• 20:29
  But it's sometimes that's what we've got to do.
• 20:32
  We've got to work within the constraints that we've got.
• 20:34
  So we do a lot provision mapping for schools at the moment as well.
• 20:38
  So we have a look at exactly what each child is costing the school.
• 20:42
  So we look any sort of alternative provision they may have any resources they might need.
• 20:47
  What sort intervention groups they have.
• 20:49
  So between looking at it financially, we can look at that and look at the outcomes with the educationalists and say actually, is that intervention actually working?
• 20:59
  So are they achieving something from that intervention?
• 21:01
  It's costing X, Y and Z.
• 21:03
  Is it really worthwhile doing that?
• 21:05
  Have you thought about doing another type of intervention or maybe looking at it in a different way?
• 21:10
  And I guess we both have a dream, don't we?
• 21:11
  In Martin Luther King style, at some point that flips the other way.
• 21:15
  So there is enough kind of resource flowing into the education system that we can say, actually that intervention isn't working.
• 21:22
  Have we thought about doing something different and here's a pot of money to fund it.
• 21:25
  I think that joined up conversation between business management professionals and educationalists is definitely the way forward.
• 21:31
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 21:33
  Absolutely fantastic.
• 21:34
  Well, we haven't solved it, Sandra, but I think we've kind of come up with some, some means in which schools can start to unpack some of the complexity of this and start to come up with sort of pragmatic solutions that ensure that children and young people make the desired progress and thrive in the settings they're in, whilst trying to operate within the sort of financial constraints that that schools have.
• 21:55
  Well, if you found today useful, please do like and subscribe to future episodes and we will see you next week.