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Mental Health and the Ministry, a Conversation with Pastor Greg Surratt · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would go through times of not long depression, but more than just a little bit of discouragement.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: It would be it would last a little while.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is Greg Surrat, founding pastor of Seacoast Church, a pastor in Chip Judd's life.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Chip returns the favor to his fellow pastor with some helpful strategies for maintaining good mental health as a counselor in Greg's life.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: The quicker I do this, the better life is.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I believe in a lie right here.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think this is the truth.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so what is the truth?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And let's replace it with the truth.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a habit that has served me well.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Each time you experience that, it was triggered by some kind of a situation.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Something not going the way you wanted it to, maybe getting hurt by someone, whatever.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: But it was triggered from the outside.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Something on the inside went rolling the wrong direction.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a good way to say it?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to be nice.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I thank God for my church background that I grew up in.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: They did the best they could with what they had.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: But there were some doctrines, ways of looking at things that I think were harmful, of understanding what God was like as a father.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: If I say something like this, your enlarged, adjusted revelation of God as your father had immense psychological/slash mental health effects in your life.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Without a doubt.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's part of the tension I'm after.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everybody, Chip Judd here with my dear friend, Pastor Greg Surratt.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Together, the two discussed Pastor Greg's journey of adopting a mindset towards good mental health awareness, something that's very likely to be exactly what the Holy Spirit is leading some of us to pursue.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a discussion about mental health and the mission of the church, and you'll only hear it here.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Excited about Pastor Greg being on here with us.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: We'll try to behave ourselves.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: You cut you come out wearing a Beatles shirt.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know it, man.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how committed you are to behaving yourself, but we'll have fun anyway.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know that.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, man, for sure.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: Mental health and the mission of the church.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Just what comes to mind when you hear that phrase?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, up until recently, and by recently, maybe that's months or years, those are two phrases you would not have heard much together.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Mental health and the mission of the church.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, I mean, in the circles that I run in, uh, there's more and more conversation about that, and that that's got to be a part of what it is we do.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in days past, in my background and your background, mental health would probably have been more of a a demon or something to be prayed away.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to make light of all of that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I believe that there are you know evil forces in the world, but there was some skepticism, let's just say that from the church's side, and I think probably uh from the mental health side too, you know, of the professionals.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: What I'll say occasionally, Greg, I would occasionally, when I'm speaking or maybe even training some counselors, I would talk about over-spiritualizing and under-spiritualizing.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: That really does.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that describes it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm I mean, I'm sure you know, first of all, I was in the word of faith movement.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Secondly, I was, you know, just a Christian way back in the late 70s, early 80s, and I was a pastor, but also a counselor.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: As you can imagine, I caught a good bit of grief.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: I wish I had a dollar for every time somebody quoted 2 Corinthians 5, 17.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if any man be in Christ, he's a new creature.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: Old things have passed away, behold, all, you know, and I'd have guys, pastors tell me, you know, why do you why do you have to talk about all that?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's under the blood.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's a big one I heard.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's under the blood.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: But you know what's interesting, Greg?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: Those would be the guys who a few months later, maybe a couple years later, they'd kind of call me on the sly.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: And they'd say don't tell anybody.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, don't tell anybody I'm talking to.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because the whatever whatever it is that I'm doing right now is just not working.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that kind of was uh the environment that they were adversaries that you know, mental health or counseling was a lack of faith, you know.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I you know, and it that that may still exist.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't hear it that much, but I think it does in a few circles.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's more and more rare.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: There's still a resistance to medication.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, some of it's probably legit, you know.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I really I don't see a lot of it.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Other than this, you know, a a pastor, I spoke to a pastor this week.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one of the things that I said to him is, you know, God has created you in the right way.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: You are you are you're built for this assignment, but we need the healthiest version of you.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then I asked him, uh, have you talked to a professional?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a counselor?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, No, I haven't.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then he went on to say, you know, in a the town where I'm at, where do you find one?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, with the obvious conclusion that there wasn't one.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've felt this before.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're a pastor, you're in a community, you know, let's say you're not in a metropolitan area, one of the big towns, and you have some challenges that you need somebody to talk to, who do you trust?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And how you know, how do you do that?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you do when you're sitting in the uh in the office uh of a counselor?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And because there's a stigma, you know, there's a stigma to that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: You mean like in the waiting room?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, in the waiting room.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what do you mean?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great point.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got, I'm just thinking from a pastor's point of view, uh, resistance.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are some in the mental health field that think that the church is the problem.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do you deal with that?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there would be some resistance there.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's philosophical difference.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, you know, either you have faith or you see a counselor.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: There are uh, I don't know what you'd call them, then there's just some practical things.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: The church is the problem statement.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, uh, hopefully we'll get back to that one because I want to look at it from that side of things too for a minute.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: How about yourself?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you go way back, you know, all the way back to Freeport, Illinois, where I was pastoring.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: An amazing community there.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: If you just start there even or go wherever you want, back in your dad's churches you grew up in.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: What would be your journey with mental health?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like what are what would be some of the key milestones or highlights?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, as I think about it, growing up, I don't think I had a major struggle with mental health.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: I would have girlfriends that would dump me, you know, and I'd go into, you know, no, man, come on.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, we we all we all dealt with those things.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And my mom would come and sit with me in my room and all of that.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: But you'd spring back, you know.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's just normal.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's normal, you know, growing up stuff.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember really dealing with mental health issues at all uh until I became a pastor.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my my first uh lead pastor, senior pastor role was in Freeport, Illinois, small farming community in rural, you know, northwest Illinois.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there were a lot of things involved that triggered some things at that point in my life.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um one was just culture shock.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'd grown up in Denver, Colorado, always lived at Fort Collins, Loveland, Denver, all the front range area.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was used to that, I knew that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I moved, you know, a thousand miles away into a rural, you know, farming community.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was totally, totally different than anything that I'd been a part of.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got that small church, 13 members, probably more like 30 or 35 people that actually came to the church.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'd grown up in small churches, but my small churches were two or three hundred people.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that winter, we moved in in in uh January, and that winter was the uh coldest.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was the winter of 79.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's it the blizzard of 79.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually got just to give people a locale, how far from Chicago were you?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh 130 miles, something like that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: Just in case you're wondering, folks, he's up in the north.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 10 miles from the Wisconsin border.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Wikipedia has a page for the blizzard of 79.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's how bad it was.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And just to give you some context, you know, it snowed 100 and some inches, 120 inches, something like that that summer that winter.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I ever realized that was the winter you're talking about, because I remember that in Buffalo.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: The temperature never got above 32 from the middle of December until March.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Which means every ounce of snow that came piled up.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they would have to put it in dump trucks and take it out uh to hilly places outside of town where they could dump it and the wind would blow it.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got that.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, I had been a youth pastor, which by the way, I got fired three times being a youth pastor, so that didn't go well for me.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had preached twice, maybe in a you know, adult environment.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so here I am in a faraway place, in a cold place, didn't know anybody, small church.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: We have church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Sunday morning we might have 30 people.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Sunday night we might have you know 12 to 20, Wednesday night we might have two to six.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a I have to have a sermon for every one of those.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Probably it was two weeks into that whole process that I had this realization.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: What in the world am I here for?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was the end of the world.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I doing this?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh fell into what would be a depression.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to define that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'd never been depressed in my life, really.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, for an extended period of time.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it got so bad that I didn't want to get out of bed.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, some days I didn't.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's kind of kind of thing where you've got church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you got to perform.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't have a history of performance at that level.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, my dad, or unfortunately, however you want to say it, gave me a stack of his sermons.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he's a he's just an incredible speaker, and he did well with them.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I they were terrible for me, but at least they gave me something, some way to function.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I can remember somewhere about three months into that, driving down to St.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Louis, where my parents lived at the time, about 300 miles, coming to a junction, uh, having lunch, crying through lunch with my wife and baby, and just saying, if we'll turn here and get on I-70, we can go to Denver, and I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna get a job with Hewlett Packard, because I don't know what to do.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what to do.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just felt overwhelmed with all of this, with the framework of pray it through, you know, just just just pray it through.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I couldn't pray.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I I don't know.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: The only way I can think of saying, Greg, is did you think there was something wrong with you, like sin?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was broken.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was broken.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's something wrong with me, definitely.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I didn't know what, I didn't know how.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my brain didn't work.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my emotions were all screwed up.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you get out of that?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, you know, a counselor, I mean, uh it wasn't thought as evil, but nobody I knew went to a counselor and decided to even occur to you?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I did after a while, but I thought, who do I go to?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I have no idea.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in a small town here, right?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know who to ask.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, how long did you stay in that mode?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Probably about six months.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was brutal.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh what got me through uh were probably, you know, other than the grace of God, were probably three things.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my dad constantly told me, you know, my dad, you know, we all have our own issues and he has his, just like I have mine.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: But he's very positive.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: He would just encourage me and say, You can do this, I know you can do this, and here's a sermon, let me talk it through with you.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you could, because being a pastor at that point basically was about preaching on the weekend or whatever the services were, you know.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So dad was dad was a positive help, and then uh my wife, Debbie, was amazing that she was able to she's very positive too.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: She's a real positive person.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I don't even remember how, but I got a hold of a book.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Telling Yourself the Truth.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Telling yourself, yeah, by William Backus.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: William Backus and somebody else.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Really good book.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: I devoured it.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the premise was uh it was uh what do they call it?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Cognitive therapy.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, these were Christian people applying mental health, they didn't call it that back then.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think, but applying mental health principles from God's Word, yeah, situation.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: What year would that have been, Greg?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was a brand new book, so it would have been whenever that was published.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, what I was gonna say to people is even though you're probably talking what 35 years ago?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, more than that.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so let's say 35 to 40 years ago, that book is still about as good as anything out there.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's called Telling Yourself the Truth.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: If I get on the team to help me, we'll put it in the the notes so you can get it.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that'd be a great thing.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I read it and read it and read it and read it and began to apply some of those principles.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I don't know all the words you know, uh catastrophizing your thinking, you know, all of this type thing.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And just stopping and going, is what I'm thinking right now true or not?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And what is the truth?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I replace the false things that I'm thinking with a lie?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I thought I'm always gonna be this way, I'm a failure, things will never change.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all of these things were feeding the snowball going down a hill.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: That was my first encounter.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: My encounter with mental health was my own lack of mental health and absolute desperation.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right, right.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we talk a lot about ants, automatic negative thoughts.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: And we talk about capture, question, replace.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that's exactly what you just described.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: You you you recognize the thoughts, you challenge them.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, is there is there any truth to it?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then you ask the question, well, what is true?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a perfect description of capture, question, replace.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's biblical, yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in the sense that Paul says, take captive every thought uh uh and make it conform to uh God's word.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Who what is God saying?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I also, of course, I see mental health everywhere now.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like if you bought a car and uh suddenly you see that car everywhere, you know, you didn't notice it before.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I see it everywhere, but Romans 12, where it says, don't be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's not just you know theological concepts, it's things about uh what God has created, including Himself.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Here's it here's part of why I'm so passionate about the concept and the partnering of mental health and the mission of the church.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like everything you just described and you threw in there that you think it's called cognitive therapy.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't want to beat up on anybody.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, you know I like to sometimes.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: But you take great delight in it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: Here's here's the unfortunate truth, Greg.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: The church didn't dig that out.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: The church did not find cognitive therapy, the world did.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: The second now, might there have been some Christians in the in the mix?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, but psychology and science dug out cognitive therapy, not the church.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: And we've since adopted it and recognize it's full of scripture.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh again, it's what you're looking for.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: When you I'm gonna preach, we're recording this now, I'm gonna preach in two weeks here, and that's all I see.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you say Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly, and obviously that's not about money.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Although, you know, you got it, money helps, it's great.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you have abundant life?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's between your ears, is where abundant life is.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Paul pedals this stuff all the time, non-stop, how you should think.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, Jesus took his disciples aside and said, let's talk about worry a little bit and it let's think through these things.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the Bible is uh is drenched to me with mental health issues, uh how you how you deal with them.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the crazy thing I found, Greg.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, heroes pastoring and doing a lot of counseling, always have, you know, getting a certain amount of resistance, mostly from leaders in the church, pastors, et cetera, hurting people.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't get any resistance from hurting people.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I went back to school to get my master's.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: The crazy thing I found, Greg, was I I'd sit in a class.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I kind of went in there sort of like, you know, oh, these people are of the devil kind of thing.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was full of scripture.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: Now they didn't use scripture, but I sat there and I studied cognitive therapy and family systems and even weird things like gestalt therapy.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And you would find, oh my gosh, this is scripture.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I came away with what I call sanctified psychology.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, psychology starts wrong and ends wrong.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: They don't believe in our fallenness, and because of that, they don't believe we need a savior.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, what I tell people is psychology starts wrong and ends wrong, but all in between, they got some really good stuff.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I believe every good thing comes from the father.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's labeled church or or what, good principles and good things are given by the father above.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Continue with your your journey.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: At any point in those six months, did you use the word depression?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, did you say, I think I'm depressed?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I I did.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh after a while, definitely.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I'm depressed.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And probably it was through the the book that kind of helped me with that.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: That was a long time ago, so we can tend to kind of create a narrative.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's what I am.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm depressed.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get out of this?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I climbed out of a hole.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, since then, it's not like, well, that's the last time I ever battled with that in my life.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's the last time I battled with it that deeply and that seriously.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I didn't have medication.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, um, I I didn't go to a counselor, I didn't, I didn't do any of those things.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: But through I did go to a counselor who happened to write a book, and then I had those support systems around me.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: When we started Seacoast several years later, uh, our early years were a real battle.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I mean, we'd we'd run into all kinds of things.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Physically, we had, you know, a massive car wreck, we had a jet ski accident that nearly killed one of our children, and my mother died of cancer, and you know, we had some natural things.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh I like every other pastor that starts a church, um, you have this vision of we're gonna reach our community and it's gonna be awesome, and you know, people are gonna be great.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you know what I discovered is that uh people bite, uh, you know, sheep bite.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, I thought sheep were wonderful uh creatures, but they bite, and then I'm not all that good at what I do, you know, and uh and you've got to produce on a regular basis, whether you feel like it or not.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's job's hard.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: It it became really, really hard.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would go through times of not long depression, but I don't know what you call it, what whatever it would be, but uh you know, more than just a little bit of discouragement, it would be it would last a little while.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd go back to what I knew to be true and work work through some of those things, still to this day.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'll I'll have thoughts about you know, this isn't working or it's not gonna work, and but I'll I'll find myself going the quicker I do this, the better life is.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll find myself going, I think I believe in a lie right here.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think this is the truth.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so what is the truth?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And let's replace it with with the truth.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a habit that has served me well, you know, all my life.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds like each time you experience that, it was triggered by some kind of a situation, something not going the way you wanted it to, maybe getting hurt by someone, whatever, but it was triggered from the outside.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and something on the inside went rolling the wrong direction.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what's different today, which is wonderful, is I have you.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, you know that there are times that I'll say, Chip, let's have lunch, and it's more than lunch.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: We we like to have lunch regardless.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but I'll say chip.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because we both like to eat.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we do.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll say chip, I I'm having a hard time getting my thinking right on this.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I'm feeling.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Help me with that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And beyond that, I don't know if we you want to go there now, but I'm not sure.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a good way to say it?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to be nice.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I thank God for my church background that I grew up in.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really do.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: They did the best they could with what they had, but there were some doctrines and ways of looking at things that I think were harmful in a relationship of understanding what God was like as a father.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: You helped me in seeing that that God loves me and how much He loves me and you know different images of God.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: I like to say even this, and I don't know if this is if this is where we want to go with it, but people talk about deconstruction.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some people deconstruct their faith just because it's a you know cool hip thing to do.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And but I think we all to some degree deconstruct what we believe about things, uh, and God helps us to reconstruct maybe a healthier thing.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of my process is saying, what do I really believe about God, about the Bible, about you know, his work in my life and on the earth, and then reconstruct that around what I believe to be true, you know, at this point in my journey.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you've helped me to do that a lot with understanding that God really loves me.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I yeah I spent a long time of my life thinking that God was just pretty ticked off at me most of the time, was waiting.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's like some some bloggers I know that are that are just waiting and excited when somebody screws up, you know.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that's what God had for me every day.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: He's just waiting for me to screw up, and you helped me to understand.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's probably not the case.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been trusting.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, now we got to the good part of the conversation.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: You start talking about me and how good I am, you know.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh you have you were supposed to get there sooner.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: But right.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Part of it's this is that you and I are different.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have some gifts, you have some gifts, they fit together well.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have served the role as a counselor in my life, really.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, helping me to square up the mental health thing.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you've helped me expand and locate myself in this mission of the church.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I've helped you with the mental health piece, you've helped me with the mission of the church piece.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is it a stretch at all if I say something like this?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Your enlarged, adjusted revelation of God as your father had immense psychological/slash mental health effects in your life.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Without a doubt.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's part of the tension I'm after.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: That there are, you know, a minute ago we were talking about cognitive therapy, the book that you read, uh Telling Yourself the Truth, and how, you know, psychology and I'll say loosely science dug some of that out and put it together in a very applicable form, right?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: And now the church is using it.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: The cool thing is, man, we know some stuff that are the answers to what's hurting people out there.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I'm so passionate about this mental health and the mission of the church.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: We'll just take that one thought.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: If we can help people come to a better understanding of God as their loving father, it's going to help their mental health.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, am I crazy?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and you you talked about it earlier when you said, you know, you went to take courses, and psychology gets it wrong that, and I don't know who psychology is, but that you know, it doesn't begin with God and end with God.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: What's cool about that is that when you get the God story uh right or as right as you can, and you understand that there is a God, Hebrews says that you've got to believe that there is a God, and you've got to believe that he uh is a generous rewarder, you know, that he's good.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to believe that God is and that God is good.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, if you want to know about deconstructing faith, I I've jokingly said, and there might be some truth in it, that's basically the foundation of my faith.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can argue about all kinds of stuff that doesn't make a lot of difference in the big picture, maybe the small picture does, but in the big picture, there is a God, and He is good.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and he has a law, one law.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: We we had 613 of them in the Old Testament, and Jesus says, Here you go, there's one.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's three people in there God, your neighbor, and yourself.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you can do that, you're probably gonna be okay.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh that's you know, that's amazing when you can tie all of that together.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you'll probably be more pleasant to be around, by the way.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna nudge you in a direction, unashamedly.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: We kind of touched on it a minute ago, but the church historically has been somewhat resistant to science.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you go all the way back to Copernicus and Galileo, you know, the earth's not the center, the sun is, and the church like killed people over that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Would you agree that mental health professionals probably have a little bit of a guardedness because they don't trust us?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's entirely possible and probable, yeah, to some degree.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a mental health professional that does not have in their framework that there is a God and that God is good, there's going to be an adversarial relationship.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got both sides.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: You've got from the mental health side, the God thing is what the problem is.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And from the church side, they see the other side of that.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: There has to be an acknowledgement of God in order for that to be good.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh in our fallenness, by the way, we're all fallen, you know, we do some pretty you you said we kill one another.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you look at church history, and I think that Christianity is um the arbitrator of much of what is good in the world.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the same time, uh, Christians have been horrible uh at times, especially when we don't agree, and uh there's jealousy and all of that.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: So you know, pastors part of their job when they wake up every morning is to is to shepherd, and part of shepherding is to protect.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Pastors are going to be a little bit prickly if they're sending a pro you know somebody they love that's genuinely hurting in some way to someone who doesn't honor and protect kind of what we believe and our way of life, even if it's wrong a little bit, let's just say there's a way to honor and address what needs to be addressed.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: I would say that the that the mental health profession and the church probably vice versa.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: We probably always haven't been honoring in our disagreeing.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the ways, there's a lot of ways we can scale that, but one of the ways is as a Christ follower to recognize that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father above.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and you said science, there's unfortunately, I think, an adversarial relationship.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, almost all things science on both sides, from the scientific mind, you know, to the church, and that encompasses everything from creation, you know, how how was all of this created uh to you know everything else.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there needs to be an adversarial relationship.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can figure it out, and neither neither side has got the complete story.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're uh we're we're finite human beings and we're discovering, but there there has been an adversarial relationship, and we can figure we we can first of all say it doesn't have to be created here in order for us to use it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other side, and that's why I'm very excited about the church that you and I are a part of, yeah, we're saying, um, hey, how about we encourage some people, people of faith who seem to be gifted in this scientific study of mental health?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't we empower them uh to put the two together, and that's the journey you're on, and let's do as much as we can with it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, so I've never really sat and counted, Greg, but I know we've got at least six staff members who, in the last few years, have felt led and called to go back to school to become some version of professional counselors, and they want to do it within the context of the church.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna hold their feet to the fire on that one because I'll be honest with you, there tends to be a drift.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: To be honest, you get out there, you get your you get your credentials, you can make more money, you kind of can live differently, et cetera, et cetera.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: So our goal is gonna be to figure out how to how to get the church more open to what psych, you know, what the God parts of psychology, but also how to how to get counselors to get back to church.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the thing you know, you you say anytime you talk about our uh identity and calling and assignment, you talk about your calling being the kingdom of God.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: I remember I'll never forget it.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm talking 40 years ago, Greg.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: Some of you that have been around a while might recognize the name, Jeff Van Vonderen.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: He wrote several books, and I was thrilled to go to a conference.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: This is, I'm not kidding, like 35, 40 years ago.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: He started his first session saying that he objected to it, it was about creative forms of evangelism.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it was about using psychology and counseling evangelistically to get hurting people and you know, bring them to the Lord.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: And he also wanted to make it a point.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I just want you to know, I'm okay about just helping people.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: And here's the thing, though, something I've come across in my 40 years.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: If I do my job and you walk away with a better marriage without a relationship with God, I've helped you for 20 years, yeah.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: However long you live.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: If I help you with your marriage and help you build a relationship with God, I've helped you for eternity.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Forever.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: I want to work together with God to get these two communities just getting on the same page, you know, pastors being more open and explorative of all of that, and counselors.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: Get your butts back in church, man.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't mean just attending, I do mean that, but get involved.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and yes, I I remember of a few years ago having uh connection with an awesome nonprofit that was helping the church and built on, you know, really built out of the church.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I talked to the CEO and I said, Where do you go to church?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, I don't really go to church anymore.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, there's a disconnect there.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, if there's a problem, let's go fix it.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: The the bottom line is is the gospel is life-giving when um approached and taught, you know, from a from a life-giving point of view.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so why wouldn't you your your friends that you counseled, you know, why wouldn't you want them to connect in with a source of life that brings eternal life, but even while we're here, uh, is is a source book of life.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, I agree with that.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like you said, if if something's off off track, get involved and help get it on track.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: Let's fix it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: Let's fix it.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's part of what drives me is you know, you've already referenced like the father's love and some of that kind of thing.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's information and tools in the realm of psychology and science that will just be a booster rocket to our efforts to help people enjoy what Jesus acquired for us, but also represent him better.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just excited about the two worlds working together.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: And if it takes some uncomfortable conversations to get there, dear God, let's do it, man.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you just said that, and this is one of the things, it's kind of one of my mantras right now.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we we're in a political season right now, you know, and we're recording this.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, elections are are important and all of that.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: But what America needs and what the world needs is not better politics.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: What the what the world needs, um, and again, I know we we've got to have politics, and that's what makes the makes it work.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: But what the world needs are Christians with better a better reflection of who God is.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is uh being well inside, uh being healthy and mental mental health.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: I believe I'm I'm involved in the most important thing happening in the church today, and that is if we can get tools and other things available and working that make Christians healthier from the inside out, they're gonna represent Jesus better.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna win back the ear of our culture, and we're gonna truly see the the borders and influence of the kingdom expanding.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: I guess you know, I'm ordinary enough to think that we're in the hot spot, man.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is I think it's great.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And in our theology that you and I share, I think, the kingdom is gonna continue to expand until at one point the king comes back and makes it all right.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh, so that's a good story.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a great ending.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: I say this to invite anyone out there.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I'm not in touch with every church out there, so forgive me.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: But as far as I can tell, we're in a small group of churches that are on the front end of trying to figure this out.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: So if you, your church, your pastor, is is is involved and wants to be involved, counselors you know that want to be involved, have them go to chipchud.com, have them go to uh our podcast uh YouTube, sign up, subscribe, and we will get you connected to a community that this is what we're gonna be all about.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: And we've got another community just for pastors.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: And this is all gonna always be part of the conversation because it starts with you getting healthy.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: We just want to get the conversation reverberating.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: And Seacoast is we've actually started a counseling center.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we're we're down the road a few clicks, seeing great results, man.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Great results.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what and and where that came from is we were thinking about where our original campus is and what are the needs there.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do we we have dream centers that uh in various places that deal with physical needs that people have clothing and shelter and health and all of that uh in surveying the local area here, that wasn't the need.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: But what was the need are addictions and mental health and all of that.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so they said, well, what if we attack that?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that is just multiplied.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: I when we're recording this, I think there's 12 counselors now full-time with thousands of uh patient hours, so and mixing the two, so it's great, and have a waiting list almost almost from the moment we open the door, we've had a waiting list.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: And we've got 12 counselors now, and we still have a waiting list.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's the big issue of the day.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, man.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks, Greg.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Appreciate you jumping on here with us.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited that you are passionate about attacking this issue.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, man, I love it.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: You see this stuff here, anybody out there?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Pray for this young, older dude.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: Pray for healing and the outcome that God wants, whether it's uh through the the miracle of science or it's through the miracle of my the stripes my savior bore.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: Either way, I'll take it.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: I want door number one.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: We we need we desperately need a lot more years of chip judg, so we're believing with you.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to hang around, trust me.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: So pray for me.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Let me pray real quick.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: Lord, thank you for my friend Greg.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm just honored.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: I just hope people listen and allow their thoughts to just get stirred.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I hope they get involved, whether they're Christians and in the church, pastors, leaders, whether they're counselors, uh, even if they're not Christian, to get involved with us in uh bringing these two streams of truth and reality together in a partnering way.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: And we thank you for it, sir.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: Bless the folks that hear this, and we appreciate it.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus' name.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: All right, dude.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sound good.