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School Drama: Why "Just Be Friends" Backfires · The Parent Tap

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you have a screen time limit and you don't have any control of the content, there it in a short amount of time kids could get into some really dangerous sort of content that you don't want them to see.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it could be really accidental.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even tell you how many times I've visited schools and the parents have told me that their child just did an innocent search.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're going through puberty, and they searched a simple term related to puberty and they came up with some very inappropriate content.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I would encourage parents, especially for younger kids, to really think about what device controls do you have on appropriate content, what house controls do you have on your network, and app controls.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: So being aware of what apps are your kids on and what's happening on those apps.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Parent Top.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are joined by Jessica Speer.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: She is an award-winning author of BFF or NRF, not really friends, middle school safety goggles advised, and her latest, the phone book.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Jessica has a master's degree in social sciences, and she has spent years researching exactly what happens in the hallways and group chats when adults aren't paying attention.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Jessica, thank you for being here.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you for having me, Ryan.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to chatting with you.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the first question I have to ask is let's start with the biggest trap parents fall into.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of leads right into our brand.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: When there is drama, parents default to telling kids, you know, just apologize, be friends again.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So why is forcing a toxic friendship to survive actually causing more psychological damage to these kids?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great place to start.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And what I found, my first book, which is the book on friendship, the one with the funky title, BFF or NRF, not really friends.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I made that up, the NRF.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: But what I that grew out of, I used to run some friendship, social emotion friendship grow-outs in social emotional friendship groups in schools.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got a chance to really work with kids in their worlds, in their social dynamics.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they, of course, they're all developing socially and emotionally at different places.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes sense that there's a lot of conflict.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're also learning how to set boundaries and how to speak up for themselves and you know who they are and how do they like to be treated.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So to get back to your question, it's really important to listen to what's going on, help them process the difficult emotions of what they're dealing with, and figure out who do they want to be and how do they want to be treated and how do they want to treat other people.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it gets a lot more complicated than we think when we're just trying to fix the problem as parents.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I always I always encourage parents, don't fix the problem.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let's really explore this and help kids grow and learn from this experience.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know I love that.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually deal with this on a daily basis with my kids.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have a four-year-old, so it's every day she's like, so-and-so is mean to me.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we hear the the reverse as well.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes my daughter will be mentioned in other parents' conversations with their kids about how she wasn't nice to them.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, sometimes I feel stuck.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I want to fall into that trap of, oh, you know, just be friends, be kind, apologize, whatever.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more complicated than that sometimes.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that simple.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, this is why I'm glad you're on the show, is because you can break this down for us and really.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you're okay, Ryan, let's talk about that situation because that might be helpful to parents, because that's so common.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Your kid walks in the door and they're really upset because something happened at school that didn't feel good.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So there is an opportunity for us as caregivers, instead of reacting to the situation, which it's so easy to do.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: We get mad too, or we get really worried, instead of reacting to the situation, taking a pause and helping them navigate what they felt at that time.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes my first reaction is, oh my gosh, that sounds really hard.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like that really hurts your feelings.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So just like taking a moment to just sit with them with that discomfort because they're still holding that discomfort, right?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: They came home, they're still thinking about this, they're still feeling this in their bodies.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: But if we can pause and just sit in that discomfort with them for a moment, it's gonna they're gonna have a chance to actually recognize that hurt within themselves.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And when they can recognize and name that feeling within themselves, that's the first step of processing that emotion.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we sometimes we use the word named tame.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, if we can help them name what they just experience in in feeling terms, that's gonna help them process that emotion right there.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of telling them what to do or how to handle the situation, let's just first let them just experience what that was like for them and process that emotion.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's always step one that I encourage parents to do.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's harder than it sounds.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I myself, sometimes when they walk in and they're so activated, we get activated and we want to jump in and help and save the day.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes they just want someone to sit on the bench with them and feel that pain that they just experienced.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I think as parents, we're almost like designed to solve all their problems and just tell them what to do, right?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think taking a step back and actually listening and just you know, it's almost like telling your spouse, like, yo, you had a bad day, like you don't necessarily want a solution, right, to your problems.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: You just want someone to hear you and you know, actually your voice to be heard.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think venting sometimes does so much for us as humans.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I need to kind of take that approach more with my daughter because it is a big thing in her world, you know what I mean?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe as much as I want to dismiss it, it it is a big thing in her world, and I need to be more tuned in to what's going on in her life because I think that I do get in this trap of feeling like you know, just be polite, just just just you know, kind of like be friends with that person.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I use this all the time.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'd used it at the went to a slide park last night, and you know, she met a friend and like within five minutes.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: This person's being mean to me, you know what I mean?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was watching the whole interaction, I didn't see anything, but you know, whatever they interpret as being mean is you know, at a four-year-old level is probably different than maybe what we interpret.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: In your research for BFF or NRF.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: What is the actual difference between normal middle school conflict and targeted bullying?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And why do parents get them confused so often?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that book actually is for elementary all the way through middle school.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Just so you know, the reading level and the skills that are being shared in that book is elementary all the way through middle school.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so that's a great question.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of confusion as to what is mean and what is actually bullying.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And because kids are young and they're all coming from different homes that have different communication styles, sometimes there's a lot of stuff going on at home, maybe some trauma or some divorce.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: There there is gonna be mean behavior happening.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: If we just turn on the TV or the uh social media, there's gonna be meanness.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so we, our kids over the years are gonna have to learn how to become resilient when someone is mean to them, which is really hard.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is processing again when that feeling is hurt and knowing that that was mean and that's not okay.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't have to, we don't have to take that.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to stand there continually and let someone be mean to us, but people are mean sometimes.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that meanness is like somebody intentionally or even sometimes unintentionally doing something to hurt your feelings, or that feels really unfair to you.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: That shifts over to bullying when it becomes really targeted, really directed towards one person, it's happening over and over to one person.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's intentional, it's pretty aggressive.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels aggressive and mean, so it might be really mean words, it might be rumors, it might be actual physical stuff.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So once it becomes targeted and repeated, and this shifts to online too.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So this can be social media stuff too.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: If on social media someone is targeting one person over and over, really harassing them mean, that that falls into bullying too.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when bullying happens, there needs to be some sort of inf intervention that needs to stop.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be really detrimental to kids and and have really horrible outcomes.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um so parents, if you hear about that, make sure to find a way to intervene, connect with the school, connect with the school counselor, find some way to make that stop.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: But mean behavior is unfortunately really common.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I went in the that tricky term we keep stumbling over, the title of my book, which is BFF, Best Friends forever, or NRF, not really friends.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to use any tropes.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to use mean girls, I didn't actually want to use bullies because the kids are always growing and changing.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, when I still work with kids and in these groups and I rate I read the description of the NRF and I say, okay, let's all raise our hands if we've ever done any of these things.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we all raise our hands, me too.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: So how I describe an NRF, not really friend, is you're nice to you some days, mean other days, makes you feel uncomfortable being yourself, might ask you to do things you're uncomfortable doing.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So those are all some elements of not a healthy friendship, not a healthy relationship.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I like kids to have a sense of what that means.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think it's okay if they see themselves in that sometimes because they realize, oh, I've done that too.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in a really mean mood and I have said something really mean to my friend.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I'm I didn't want to dump this into mean girls or bullies.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: I want it to be really general because I think especially with little kids and middle schoolers, we need to give room for growth and change.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're all growing and changing and learning social emotional skills at a different pace.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to give them the chance to grow and change.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And some may never have learned that it's actually not okay to do some of these behaviors that's really hurt somebody else's feelings.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: The ability for kids to learn perspective taking, so to actually take on someone's perspectives, feels what it's like to be in their shoes, that happens somewhere around the middle of elementary school.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So some kids learn that earlier, some kids maybe even a little later, but that's a fundamental piece to relationships is learning how to take perspective.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's great for parents to know that for some kids doesn't even happen to the middle or even the end of elementary school.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So keep that in the back of your mind that if there is a kid that is consistently mean or annoying, they just haven't got there yet.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully they're getting a lot of support at school to help them develop some of these social emotional skills.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I like to give kids a long runway because it sure doesn't help when we label kids, and then those labels stick to those kids all the way through their school years.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's another easier said than done.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I totally get the premise, but being a former elementary teacher for five years, I dealt with the whole bull is this parents coming in, is this bullying, and I have to be judge and jury kind of in that situation.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to determine what crosses the line.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is this kid actually just a bully?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: How did you do it?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's kind of how we did that.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just think you monitor the behavior.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the times the the activity that we're being told or I was being told was like this is happening at the lunchroom, this is happening at PE or recess.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so those times were they're really not in my supervision.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the classroom, I think all teachers are attuned to this and and they're really looking out for any behaviors that would go into the bullying category.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think it's I think it's tough because I think children, some children are more, you know.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter, for instance, she's more emotional, so little things will she'll think that that's like a huge deal, you know what I mean?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then my son is like, you know, it kind of rolls with the punches.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just kind of like, you know, the the the emotional makeup of the child, and then also just kind of like the behavior.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just try to do the analysis on that.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I would set no tone and try to stay in that constant communication with the parents because I think that bullying, like you said, the repercussions for bullying can be completely awful, especially as children get older, and now we have the communication with online and smartphones and all those pieces that play into it.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, anyways, I think it's a tough, complicated situation, just like the first question.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that being in cohorts with the parents and the teachers and the stakeholders all at the school is super important to make sure that if if there is something we um, you know, is not acceptable happening, that we kind of take that approach sooner than later.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's not let this go on, let's not let that kid be labeled, but let's also not let children be feeling like they're being bullied because no, no, and I'm with you on that.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I have a whole chapter in that book on bullying behavior.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: I try to avoid naming someone a bully, but I use the term bullying behavior because it is really important.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I think where I find the disconnect is a lot of parents might confuse meanness with bullying.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I try to be careful with how I'm talking to parents and educating the parents and again teaching them the difference between those two because sometimes it actually is just it's mean and rude behavior and it's not bullying behavior.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: But even with mean and rude behavior, there's things we can do as caregivers to help kids learn to be more aware of that.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna take some time, especially the younger they are.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna take some time for them to learn the skills, to choose different words, to make different choices, but it's, you know, especially with little ones as they're learning social emotional skills.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty messy.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Elementary school and middle school get pretty messy when it comes to this.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so I didn't want to say I don't think there's bullying and we should address it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think we absolutely need to address bullying behavior when it happens.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: We just need to be really clear.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's what this is and make sure we we handle it, and also addressing mean behaviors too, in another way.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for making that distinction.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to get into the smartphone because I see a lot of stuff on social media about parents bragging about, oh, you know, screen time limits or my child has no screen time, but they ignore the actual content of the text thread.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is the most dangerous social dynamic happening on phones right now that a screen time limit does nothing to fix?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you have a screen time limit and you don't have any control of the content, there it in a short amount of time, kids could get into some really dangerous sort of content that you don't want them to see.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it could be really accidental.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even tell you how many times I've visited schools, and the parents have told me that their child just did an innocent search.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're going through puberty, and they searched a simple term related to puberty, and they came up with some very inappropriate content.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I would encourage parents, especially for younger kids, to really think about what device controls do you have on appropriate content, what happened house controls do you have on your network, and and app controls.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So being aware of what apps are your kids on and what's happening on those apps.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I like to again give a long runway here.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: So start very small and then slowly build as kids grow and learn and have responsibilities.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: When my kids are teens now, but when they were little, we had a family tech agreement that had all this in it.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So in addition to like where phones can be in the house and when, it was also like what how do we get a new app on the phone?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like in our family?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we so just being really clear on that.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Kids appreciate boundaries, not as they get older, but boundaries make kids feel safe, and they do help kids feel safe.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Just being aware of that, trying to have these conversations and with childhood today, it's like it's a conversation until they leave your home.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it starts really small when they're little, and then it just keeps going and it gets more complicated as they hit preteens and teens, and it's just a constant conversation that we're having with our kids to teach them how to be safe and healthy online.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it there's so many unseen dangers out there.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I just watched a special on Roblox about how there's predators in the chat and group chat dynamics with teenagers or kids of all ages, really, you never know what that's gonna bring up.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so my question is for the parent that's turning off the Wi-Fi at you know, 8:30, 9 o'clock, that's maybe good and all, but good and well.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: But what are they not doing?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do we protect ourselves from all these dangers and our kids from all these dangers out there?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe this isn't something we can answer in this this short of a pod, but what's the first step in terms of is it just checking in on their content, or is it like you said, putting those filters on, or what do you think the but most preventative action is that we can take?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it depends on their ages.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, the older they get, the more savvy they get, and the less you're gonna be able to control.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a big opportunity when they're very young to start educating them and to build this family dialogue.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, like where your kids are, preschool, elementary school, there's that's where we really start to begin to set some foundational understanding as a family and some family values around all this and some really clear boundaries because let's face it, once they get to middle school, they can get around any sort of gates we put in.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really important to have all these conversations, and there's a lot to them.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, in the phone book, it's written for kids.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that book is written for eight to 12 year olds, and every chapter is something I wanted to be sure my kids really knew before they got smartphones.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a chapter on Stranger Danger, there's a chapter on FOMO, there's a chapter on against cyberbullying.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of conversations to have.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so keep having those conversations, but part of that, here's the thing.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: If we are just talking negatively, they're gonna tune us out at some point.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we also have to balance that with some really cool conversations about technology, like recognizing the cool things, like wow, I don't know how I navigated without my GPS, or I don't know how I was able to find information so quickly without using this search engine.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So just trying to balance that out so that as they age, they don't tune us out, realizing technology is it's not going away.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: One of parents' jobs now is to teach our kids to use technology more safely.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Schools are getting better at you know, either pulling devices out of schools or putting better guardrails in place with schools, so that's helping.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, around the world, we're starting to see some changes happening.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're putting some guardrails in place for kids.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: The United States is a little slow on some of these guardrails happening for kids, but I'm hopeful they'll continue to grow that we will have more safety standards and guardrails in place to keep kids safe online.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: But right now, a lot of that work is falling on the shoulders of parents.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I've heard about some of the confiscating phones before class and all that.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's going on in the news.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's definitely this hot topic that's really not going away because I think it's just gonna get more complex.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: As, you know, now AI is starting to evolve and chatbots and all that comes with it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's just gonna be this ever growing issue that we have to be aware of as parents, I think, you know, because I think each generation will kind of have its own unique problems with that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hit on something that makes people a little, maybe a little uncomfortable.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think every parent, and I experienced this as a teacher, I experience this as a you know, parent now, but I think every parent kind of thinks their kid is like, you know, kind of a perfect angel.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you all want to think that, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: But how do we identify if their kid is actually mean or the aggressors?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is there any red flags we need to look for if we're getting reports at school that something is going on with our child?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: What do we look at, maybe at the at the house or when they're interacting with friends?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything in particular that you could identify?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if we if you are getting reports, that's a great opportunity to talk with the teacher or talk with the school counselor to get a feel of really what is going on and observing.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, say you've got some friends over your house, or your kids have some friends over observing them and just watching that behavior.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we realize that our kids might have a behavior that is harm harming their friendships, it's instead of going in with a correction right away, it's really important to go in in a way that's really gentle.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because once we put kids or even adults, once we put anybody in a place of shame or embarrassment, they kind of shut down.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to step into these conversations really carefully.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe even better if we notice them doing that behavior to us, we can respond in the moment like, wow, that really hurt my feelings.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Can you try to say that another way?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of you shouldn't say that, or just like coming right down on them, can we teach them another way?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes kids are doing these things because they don't yet know another way.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: So let's yes, think about that as parents.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: How can we be coaches and guides for our kids without shaming them?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Some kids just have really strong personalities and they want to take charge.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so those kids sometimes they're the bossy ones, but later in life, that quality is really gonna serve them.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't want to quash that in that child that they have it take charge because that's a really cool quality.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: But can we guide that child to also recognize that somebody else needs a turn to choose?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, my advice is explore this, another opportunity for learning growth, and explore it in a way as gently as we can.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is an opportunity for growth for our child.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: So let's take that angle to help them grow into the little people that they are.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, love that answer.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's great, and that's a great reminder.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like in the back of my head, I kind of was trained to sort of respond in that way, but it's like you kind of it's almost like you get bad habits as a parent or as like a teacher over time, and you like you don't handle it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I didn't handle it the way.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: That I should.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's always a great reminder of like what how we should handle that when it comes up in the future.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is such a wealth of knowledge for our audience.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: In middle school, safety goggles advised you you talked about dignity.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do we teach a preteen that is that it is possible to dislike someone or not want to be in their group, but still treat them with basic human dignity?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's such a big one.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because in middle school, kids are trying to sort who they are, and they're trying to sort out the status that is that is there, like it or not.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's status and structure in schools and popular and less popular people.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they're trying to sort this all out.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: One way that we could do this as parents and caregivers is through our behavior, is treating everybody with dignity.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Kids listen, if we're gossiping about our neighbors and our friends, if we're labeling people, they're gonna pick all that up.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if we are treating people with dignity, like every time a server comes to our table, every time we see somebody struggling on the street, carefully thinking about how we are describing or talking with that person, that's gonna matter.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then if we find that our middle schooler is actually starting to contribute to some of this shaming of others, labeling, being really unkind to others, we have to have some conversations about what dignity means and what that looks like.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I always start with our modeling behavior and then having some conversations with kids again in a non-shaming way, but calling it out.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So one example, let's say we're driving our, we've got some kids in the back of the car, our kid and a couple of their friends, and they are saying something really racist or homophobic.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think absolutely in that moment, it is time for us to step in.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't have to step in a shaming way.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: We could be like, hey guys, I just heard this said, and I need to pause there, and we need to talk about this.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: So if there are opportunities where you are there, if something is happening that needs to be addressed, let's address that, but let's address it in a really calm way.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, again, not shaming them.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we just need to respond in the moment if there's an opportunity to respond.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not shaming them.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like like you mentioned, that example in the car, they might not even need know the context of what they're saying, perhaps.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it is important to address it right then and there and hopefully prevent it from, you know, I'm not the expert, but hopefully prevent it from, you know, becoming this recurring event where they're they're using that language or verbiage in front of their friends or you know, wherever else that they hang out at.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's that's such a great answer.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And Jessica, this has been absolute masterclass, a great wake-up call for all parents.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know I've learned a lot.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, where can we find the phone book?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: The BFF or NRF.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, I can't.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: You got it! And the rest of your resources, I'm never gonna forget BFF or NRF again because I butchered it so many times in this interview.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's good.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good that's a good recall.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So where can we find all of your great resources and past and future projects?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, my books are typically available almost anywhere.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Books are sold, so you can get them all sorts of places.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: The easiest place to find me is on my website, which is Jessica Spear, S is in Sam, P is in Peter, E-E-R.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got all sorts of free content out there for parents on all of these topics.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you can search by age or topic and find some resources to support your family.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really focus on kids and teens, on social emotional development, on healthy and safe digital habits.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I encourage anybody to come search for some information if they might be struggling with any of the things we talked about today.