Latest / Finding New Waters / Jesse Quam on Wilderness Therapy, Phone Detox, and Helping Families Find the Right Treatment

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Jesse Quam on Wilderness Therapy, Phone Detox, and Helping Families Find the Right Treatment · Finding New Waters

0:00
Can you get him to stop partying to go into rehab?
0:03
Well, I'm going to need your help, mom and dad to use the
0:07
power of the finances to get some reality here.
0:10
So working in concert with the family or the client, the whole
0:14
family is the client and doing what's best for them for soup to
0:19
nuts from the first rehab and say again, it's a young adult
0:23
rehab it new waters, then the next step and then how can they
0:26
sustain and integrate the work with a good therapist or or or a
0:31
a model all. Right.
0:32
Welcome back everybody to another episode of Finding New
0:34
Waters. My name is Bea Reeves.
0:36
I'm the Director of Business Development here at New Waters
0:38
Recovery in Raleigh, sitting here with our CEO, Justin
0:41
McClendon, and our very special guest, Mr. Jesse Quam, who is a
0:47
educational consultant and a therapist, and he's done all
0:50
kinds of other stuff we can't wait to hear about up in Black
0:52
Mountain, NC. Welcome, Jesse.
0:54
Hi, thanks. Thanks for having me today.
0:56
I'm excited to be here. We're excited to have you.
1:00
Just a little bit of a back story.
1:01
I6 Almost six years ago when I started working in this field,
1:07
it was just this, you know, to borrow a tired corporate phrase,
1:11
drinking from a firehose and all these names and people and what
1:15
they do and all of it was pretty much foreign to me.
1:17
I didn't know anything about anything.
1:19
And I kept hearing about this guy named Jesse Quam.
1:21
Jesse Quam. And I think the more I heard and
1:24
said his name out loud, I thought he was going to be like,
1:26
he was like a Star Wars character with that last name
1:29
Quam. And and then I finally met him
1:32
and he turned out to be, you know, he's one of my favorite
1:34
people I've met in this field. He's just a really good guy.
1:36
And he's done a lot of interesting work.
1:38
And I just the most generous guy.
1:40
He's helped me a lot over the last six years.
1:42
And he's been to New Waters, you know, about two months ago.
1:45
And I'm just a great guy. And so I just kind of wanted to
1:49
let you, Jesse, tell us a little bit of your back story, how you
1:53
got into this field and, and what you do.
1:55
And we'll just kind of sit back and take it all in.
1:58
Yeah, I was born in the Midwest, son of a pastor, and went to
2:03
College in Chicago and did a lot of volunteering there at a
2:06
religious school in the community, Cook County Hospital,
2:11
did some tutoring of kids at a magnet school, lots of like
2:15
social work type of activities in a religious school.
2:18
And then started working in a well, actually had a couple
2:22
years graduate work in sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll.
2:26
Can I say that? I guess I can't.
2:28
But I was a pastor's son, so I partied a bit for a few years,
2:32
and then one of my best friends got a job at a wilderness
2:35
program in Utah and changed my life.
2:39
So 30 years this June I started a therapeutic wilderness program
2:45
in southern Utah and works with some of the greatest people I've
2:49
ever met as a wilderness staff and did a lot of different jobs.
2:54
They're there till about O3, so 96 to O3.
2:58
At that point I decided to get go back to grad, go to grad
3:02
school, got a master's work for social work in at Boston
3:06
College, got married and then embarked, got a 10 year career
3:11
as a therapist and clinical director at a wilderness program
3:15
here outside of Black Mountain. And then eleven years ago, this
3:19
May started as a therapeutic educational consultant, meaning
3:24
I've visited 305 programs like New Waters.
3:29
And I must say, be your golf swing is something I really envy
3:33
about you. Very good at golf.
3:37
And that's how we first got to know each other.
3:38
And then just appreciated your honesty and reliability and
3:43
integrity in the substance abuse field from your story and
3:48
visited New Waters twice now and very excited about what y'all
3:52
are doing there in Raleigh. So yeah, I've been here in 20
3:56
years in Black Mountain helping families as a licensed clinical
4:00
social worker and then helping families find places like New
4:04
Waters all over the country and mother the family or father the
4:10
family through a year of the treatment process, which can be
4:14
a lot of ups and downs and a very intimate thing to do.
4:18
And I've been doing that for 11 years.
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Like I said about Doctor John Huey's practice, he ran Outward
4:23
Bound for 20 years and then was a therapeutic educational
4:27
consultant himself. I worked with him when I was a
4:30
therapist. He was the consultant and we had
4:33
lunch and we kind of courted each other.
4:37
He sold his my his practice to me in and he's 89 and he still
4:41
mentors me. But you know while he goes
4:44
fishing that. Sounds awesome.
4:48
Let's back up and the word wilderness.
4:52
That's one of those things that gets that term gets thrown
4:56
around a lot in our field. And will you just tell us what
5:01
what exactly does that mean? What does that entail?
5:05
I was lucky enough to have been adjunct professor at Montreat
5:09
College for 13 years in the middle of all that teaching a
5:14
survey of adventure based counseling.
5:17
So, you know, one would say wilderness is something
5:20
ingrained as in us as humans caves, being outside farmers
5:26
this new age with phones is is kind of not healthy and
5:31
something very new, obviously, given the historical time.
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So wilderness programs sort of started as camps.
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And there was a guy, Larry Dean Olsen at BYU who took out, took
5:46
kids for a semester down in the wilderness of Utah. 80% of them
5:53
finished college. Let's say that again, 80% of
5:56
them visit finished college. So much so that the psychology
6:00
department took over that that class was called BYU 480.
6:05
They knew something was going on because they didn't crack a book
6:07
for a semester. They were doing making fires,
6:11
Native American way, etcetera. And so wilderness programs kind
6:15
of spraying out of that started with a, not a therapist around
6:18
and then therapeutic wilderness, a time away, camping, looking
6:23
inside, being away from technology, being away from
6:26
marijuana or Doritos or whatever sort of things got in the way of
6:29
their lifestyle, sleep, video games, that sort of thing.
6:33
And then concurrently working on the family system.
6:37
Certainly lately there's been some negative press about them.
6:41
I can refer to some outcome studies that show that
6:44
wilderness is safer than status quo and in a lot of ways safer
6:49
than your general population going to ER visits, for example.
6:55
It's, it's safe based on a study of 2 million wilderness days,
7:00
It's actually safer than being a regular kid in America.
7:06
And then if you want to go to struggling with, with substances
7:10
or, or mental health, it's it's twice as safe as status quo at
7:16
home. So, so there's a lot of you
7:18
know, people want to know, is it worth the money?
7:20
Is it safe? Is it effective?
7:22
There's some great outcome studies for it.
7:26
And it you know, it's, it's, it's worked in lots of different
7:29
areas adjudicated kids. Some of the, you know, drug
7:33
court places have been unsafe, but certainly getting kids
7:37
outside, anyone who has kids can realize if you run your kids
7:41
like puppies, they're tired at night and they go to sleep,
7:44
right? And it works for all genders.
7:49
Jesse, I'm curious not to not to make this all about the the
7:52
wilderness stuff, but I am curious since we're on that
7:55
subject, why did we, why did we see so much of it kind of fade
7:59
away? I mean, this obviously
8:00
wilderness still exists and you know, there's some really solid
8:03
reputable programs out there, but definitely seems to be fewer
8:07
of them than there was even, you know, 5 or 10 years ago.
8:11
Oh, I could talk for an hour on that.
8:13
I'll just say a couple things. There's been some negative
8:15
press. Certainly wilderness programs
8:18
got expensive and a lot of investment dollars got in the
8:23
programs. Y'all those substance abuse
8:25
programs probably understand this very well.
8:28
With some of those, you know, you say substance abuse
8:33
treatment, you think of Florida places that like patient
8:37
shopping or whatever, like that sort of thing.
8:39
There was none of that in wilderness.
8:40
It just got very expensive because there were investment
8:43
dollars in there and it probably got too expensive too quickly.
8:48
I think there's more of a regression to them, to the
8:50
average a little less money these days.
8:53
And the programs that are still there are not necessarily owned
8:56
by big investment groups. They're more a few investors.
9:01
So I think that's, that's better, but certainly negative
9:05
press price point and then certainly availability of
9:11
insurance based first steps around the country has, has hurt
9:16
it a bit. But I think, I don't think it's
9:18
gone. I think it'll come back.
9:19
I think with, with AI and, and, and a lot of people spending
9:25
five, 10-15 hours a day on their phone, the idea of a detox from
9:32
modern life and, and substances and technology would be very
9:39
soothing, along with a therapist to work with your family system,
9:43
not unlike what y'all do at new waters, right?
9:46
You're away from a lot of different things that were toxic
9:49
in your life. You're getting detox and you're
9:51
starting to think, you know, what do you want to do for
9:54
treatment, to have it sustain and integrate in your life, to
9:58
start a year long path of healthy living recovery, not
10:03
just white knuckling it, not using substances, but how can
10:06
you integrate it into your life and have it be lasting?
10:09
So in some ways what you all do and what wilderness does is very
10:13
similar. It's just we might do it in the
10:16
high desert of Utah or Georgia or wherever the program is.
10:22
Yeah, I I agree that it think it's going to make it more of a
10:27
comeback. I mean, just that the, I mean,
10:29
the phone alone is because you, like you were saying, I mean, 30
10:32
years ago the phone wasn't a problem.
10:34
Yeah, there was TV and, you know, people who were maybe
10:37
addicted to playing Atari or, you know, Nintendo, but not, I
10:44
mean, 30 years ago was 1990. I mean, that's, I mean, I
10:49
remember the first. Student, I, I heard about those
10:52
flip phones taking pictures and someone would share a
10:54
compromising picture with someone and I was, I, I, you
10:57
know, I clutched my pearls. I'm like, that's the worst thing
10:59
I've heard. And now, you know, I could make
11:02
a cute video of my dog and 3 million people in France could
11:06
see it by now. So obviously the ramifications
11:10
of that are, are very difficult. But yeah, I mean, my, I've been
11:14
to DCA half dozen times advocating in on the hill for
11:19
therapeutic programs, being covered by insurance, etcetera.
11:23
But I, I don't think their day is done.
11:25
I think if it can be done for a decent price point, there's no
11:28
better first step. Imagine again like someone
11:31
coming to y'all and detoxing and then going out for a couple
11:35
months and really being silent in the wilderness, working with
11:40
a group, you know, living in community, which can be very
11:43
humbling as you know. And then having a solo time
11:48
where you really introspect. You see some sun rises and
11:51
sunsets, your body gets in tune and you wake up it when the sun
11:56
comes up and you go to sleep. When the sun comes down, you're
11:59
eating healthy, you know, you're away from all the toxic
12:02
influences and you reset. And then all right, where do
12:06
you, where do you go to sustain and integrate that long term
12:09
halfway house in Austin, TX or Lancaster, PA or Portland, ME or
12:15
Pierre, SD wherever you go, where can you sustain and
12:18
integrate that for a year? I I learned in the VA system
12:22
certainly that after six months sober folks have less
12:26
recidivism. And I learned in the VA system
12:29
if you had one visit from a family member, a lot of the
12:33
veterans I work with were lay alienated from family.
12:36
If they had one visit from one family member, one study showed
12:40
their chances of relapse went way down because they had some
12:45
familiar support. So if you wed wilderness with
12:48
family support, you could get a lot of assessment and treatment
12:52
done. That really kick starts that
12:55
year of recovery, whether it's from fatty foods, Internet
13:03
drugs, process addictions. I've seen it work with a lot of
13:07
different things with kids as young as 11 and folks in their
13:11
40s. Yeah, I mean, I, this sounds
13:16
like one of those things people come to new waters.
13:18
For instance, my mom, when we were doing our grand opening a
13:20
tour, what do I need to do to come here?
13:22
I said, well, you just need to drink and do drugs for 27 years
13:25
until you want to kill yourself and then I can take you to
13:27
treatment. But people say that I like, I
13:29
want to stay, you know, I want to do this.
13:31
I what do I, you know, but I really kind of mean this about I
13:35
would like to go on a wilderness trip and be away from my phone
13:37
for a while and totally reset. Well.
13:39
There's if John was here who I bought my practice from, Sorry
13:44
if just stepping on you there. He he was started.
13:47
He was the second employee at Outward bound up in the boundary
13:51
waters back in the mid 60s. And he worked with inner city
13:54
kids from Philadelphia who you know could take care of
13:59
themselves on the streets. But they, you put them up in, in
14:02
Minnesota and they, they think a bear might eat them and a
14:05
complete change of lifestyle. So, you know, through places
14:09
like Outward Bound or Knowles or different camps around the
14:12
country or retreats, a lot of religious communities, you can
14:16
go to a retreat and have a room and be silent.
14:19
There's, there are a lot of opportunities out there to be in
14:22
wilderness and that sort of thing.
14:24
And I think the new programs in the next few years are going to
14:27
be very cutting edge and, and have a outdoor component.
14:31
I know a lot of therapists who meet people in parks and take a
14:33
walk. I think it's it's very
14:39
historically with humans, we're not really meant to be inside
14:42
all day. And that, incidentally, was one
14:44
of the best things about working almost 18 years in a wilderness
14:47
program is I've most of my day was outside and I, I, I love my
14:53
office. I think it's the best office in
14:54
my town. But I like being outside more
14:57
than I like being inside. My prayers are more honest when
15:00
I am outside sleeping under the stars.
15:03
But I get no remuneration from any wilderness program.
15:07
But the thanks for asking about it.
15:10
I think it's something that's important.
15:12
Incidentally, there's a documentary coming about out
15:15
about a young adult wilderness program in Utah.
15:18
And the director, I believe, was nominated for a very big award
15:23
for a documentary a few years ago.
15:25
And it's coming out and I think it's just a good, it'll be a
15:28
good commercial for what wilderness can do.
15:31
There's been some screenplays, there's been some great stories
15:34
about people who've done well, and then there's been some
15:37
horrible stories about folks in treatment.
15:40
And I'm not going to just say that all of them are lies, of
15:43
course. I advocate for anyone who's been
15:46
mistreated in any sort of treatment to come forward and
15:48
tell their story and got to balance that with the the
15:54
positive stories that have have come through it.
15:56
Just like I'm sure y'all would love to have people from New
16:01
Water say, you know, this was the first step in in saving and
16:04
changing my life. Absolutely.
16:07
Yeah, and I know lots of people who the first step in saving and
16:11
changing their lives was wilderness.
16:13
Lots of. Sure, Lots and lots of people.
16:14
Oh I I I'm getting interviewed for a kids capstone project at
16:19
an Ivy League school was one of my wilderness students.
16:22
I won't break confidentiality but feels really good thirteen
16:26
years later to be interviewed by someone from an Ivy League
16:31
school doing a master's capstone project on a certain relevant
16:35
issue makes me feel a little old, but I I'm grateful.
16:39
I mean, the first kids I started working with are.
16:43
I did the math the other day. I think they're in their mid 40s
16:46
now so I'm. 56 That's really cool.
16:51
So they were 15 and I was 25, right as a staff.
16:54
So that makes sense. They're 56, they're 46, I'm 56.
16:58
So that's, you know, that's a lifetime.
17:00
And I, anyone who hears this, who work with me, I'd be happy
17:04
to hear your story, positive or negative of your experience.
17:08
And it all adds to what we could, what we could do better.
17:12
But I'm not here to talk about wilderness programs, but I, I'm
17:15
happy to answer any questions about it because I, I adore the
17:18
I adore it. And but that's not the only
17:21
thing I do. I've been to schools for kids
17:25
with learning challenges, psychiatric hospitals, anything
17:29
under the sun. I think it's 305 is my number of
17:33
programs that I've visited. Around the country.
17:37
So Jesse, can you walk us through, you know, for any of
17:40
the listeners or viewers that maybe don't know how this works,
17:43
but you know, let's say there's a there's a family, there's a
17:45
client in need, they reach out to you.
17:47
What do you do? How do you walk them through
17:49
that process? How do you help them, you know,
17:51
get their loved one to the appropriate treatment and all of
17:54
that? Yeah, great question.
17:56
I incidentally, I, you know, I'm pastor son and doctor John Huey
18:00
taught me this and I, I'm a good social worker.
18:03
I, I probably do between 15 and 20% pro bono work over COVID.
18:08
It was definitely over 20%. Again, not Tooting my own horn,
18:11
but I help fam every family that calls with something to get them
18:15
somewhere, whether it be Medicaid or insurance, that sort
18:18
of thing. But obviously it starts with a
18:20
little rapport building. And tell me your story.
18:23
If I you were calling me today, either of you, I'd say just tell
18:26
me your story. Why you calling?
18:27
What's going on? I might interrupt with a few
18:30
questions like have you what kind of treatment have you had
18:35
before? What's been your experience?
18:37
But what's going on? What's the presenting problem?
18:40
What's why did you come here today?
18:42
Basically, you know, you're not calling me because things are
18:45
going well. Sometimes it's my child's in the
18:48
ER from an overdose of fentanyl. Sometimes it's we found weed in
18:52
Johnny's room or whereas, you know, psychiatric war.
18:57
Yeah, whatever first calls can go all over the gamut, but a lot
19:00
of it is history taking. Certainly where they are
19:05
financially does come into it eventually, whether it's
19:08
insurance out of pocket or Medicaid.
19:10
But certainly you know, what and what are you looking for?
19:15
And, and, and I wouldn't, I don't pull rank and say I've
19:18
been doing this a long time. Trust me, I'm your savior.
19:20
More of what are you looking for?
19:23
And, and, and, and often I've said to families of teenagers
19:27
and adults as if if you as mom and dad aren't willing to take
19:33
be on your kids side and join the parallel process of growth,
19:36
or at least look inside to what you can do differently as a
19:39
parent with limits or communication.
19:43
You maybe you want to call someone else.
19:45
And I don't mean that to be cocky.
19:47
It's just it's not going to really work unless the family
19:50
system can at least whoever calls is willing to join the
19:55
journey with their child. And sometimes that means, you
19:58
know, oh, we've been down this road with eight different rehabs
20:01
and this is the 9th and this is the last one.
20:03
OK, then let's make it a good one.
20:06
Let's make it a program that really fits.
20:08
And it has a great history and fits you and, and I, I guess
20:12
that's the art of the job is, you know, you could use AI and
20:16
maybe find a program, but a lot of it really is a gut level
20:21
instinct of what would help this client in, in their preparedness
20:26
there where they are on the stages of change.
20:30
You know, S you, I'm not going to change.
20:33
Well, that's pretty contemplative, right?
20:36
Go after yourself. I'm not going to change.
20:38
All right, that's pretty contemplative.
20:39
Or man, I got really scared. My buddy died in the car
20:43
accident. I'll, I'll do anything to get
20:45
sober. Well, that's a little, that's a
20:47
different kettle of fish, right? And, and sometimes the parents
20:51
need to take away the support of the child.
20:57
Oh, we pay for their place to stay in their car and their
21:00
insurance in a stipend of $2000 a month.
21:03
Can you get him to stop partying to go into rehab?
21:06
Well, I'm going to need your help, mom and dad to use the
21:10
power of the finances to get some reality here.
21:14
So working in concert with the family or the client, The whole
21:17
family is the client and doing what's best for them for soup to
21:23
nuts from the first rehab, say again, it's a young adult rehab
21:26
at New Waters. Then the next step and then how
21:29
can they sustain and integrate the work with a good therapist
21:33
or, or, or a, a model for a full year and help them with each
21:38
chess move for the full year. Maybe that was a long winded
21:42
answer, but that's, that's kind of my goals for the first call
21:45
is to gather information and then let's I like to get them
21:49
into my office face to face. Zoom is great, but I love to go
21:53
to their home or go beat them on Zoom or have them come into my
21:57
office to kind of tell their story.
21:59
And let's go through the options.
22:02
And last thing I'll say is, you know, sometimes it's here's the
22:06
check fix my kid kind of an economic transaction.
22:10
And, you know, that doesn't usually work really well.
22:14
How about we're all going to try to do something different.
22:18
We all had part of the the the plane ride into the pit of, you
22:26
know, the side of the mountain. We're all going to have a part
22:28
in us being a phoenix rising out of the ashes.
22:32
Is that that's that's what that's my aunt.
22:34
Long winded answer. No, that's a great answer.
22:37
That's great. What are you seeing how you know
22:39
in your 30 plus years of doing this, what, what are you seeing
22:44
that are stark differences from how the calls you were getting,
22:48
you know, 30 years ago versus today, not only about what
22:50
substances, but just kind of attitudes about getting help.
22:54
What are you? What are you seeing?
22:58
You know, when I first started, I wasn't on the admissions
23:02
level, but certainly the students we ended up with were,
23:06
you know, kids acting out. Let's get them into treatment
23:11
and get get their head screwed on straight, so to speak, right?
23:16
So more of a kind of a behavioral model like stop
23:20
fighting, stop smoking weed, stop mouthing off to your
23:23
parents, which is fine. And I think wilderness did a
23:26
great job with that then. But then I think treatment is to
23:30
maybe get more into, over the years, it got into more of the
23:34
family system work and everyone doing better.
23:38
And then certainly what happens after this mountaintop
23:41
experience in the wilderness, right?
23:44
You could go to weight loss program and do really well and
23:47
then our rehab and do really well with not drinking.
23:50
But to get a job at a donut shop or a bar, you're going to
23:54
relapse. Most people do.
23:57
So how can you change the environment and the family
24:00
system? So certainly more social skills
24:04
challenges these days we're seeing more of an internal
24:07
student, maybe a self-destructive, isolating more
24:11
than that kids out there, you know, smoking weed, partying,
24:16
going to raves, taking, you know, those kinds of kids get in
24:19
fights. Like those kind of kids are
24:21
there still, but not as that most kids are more internal now
24:25
I see. And and whether they're on the
24:28
spectrum of autism or not, social skills being a real
24:33
deficit because of certainly starting with COVID and then
24:37
this 12 hours on their phone. They don't have that ability to
24:42
read others affect or know how to nurture a friendship or yeah,
24:48
I've got 16 friends. They're all online and we play
24:52
whatever video game that's hot at the time.
24:55
And then the parents are like, Oh my God, are they all really
24:58
your friends or is it some weird trucker from Milwaukee was
25:01
grooming you to or whatever. All these nothing against
25:05
truckers in Milwaukee, but you know, this these weird sort of
25:09
folks online that parents are worried about these days.
25:14
And and then of course, I've been to a couple funerals for
25:17
fentanyl overdose and that sort of thing these days where, you
25:22
know, you take the ecstasy or smoke a little weed and there's
25:24
a little fentanyl on it. And if we all died from a bad
25:28
mistake like that, I guess none of us would be here.
25:31
But, you know, nowadays it's, it's sometimes with substance
25:34
abuse, getting it off the street.
25:36
It's like Russian roulette. Roulette.
25:39
I'm sure I'm speaking to the choir on that one.
25:42
No, it's true. And that's, you know, we, we
25:44
talk about that on this podcast sometimes, but it's, it's true.
25:48
It's a different, it's a different day and age when it
25:50
comes to that. And you know, the idea of, you
25:52
know, you know, maybe some innocent experimentation that
25:56
may be relatively normal at certain ages as as an emerging
26:00
adult has become extremely dangerous to do, unfortunately.
26:04
You said something I've never heard anybody say exactly which
26:07
I think is so important that these isolative kids versus the
26:12
kind of acting out externally, unable to read the, I might
26:18
misquote you here, but the affectations of other human
26:20
beings. And I've never heard it said
26:22
exactly like that. And that's such a huge piece of
26:24
this that these kids were talking about.
26:28
They they're lacking that, that that innate part of being a
26:33
human being to naturally be able to read the affectations of
26:38
other human beings. But they're so blocked off and
26:40
so hunched over on those phones that then they do get out and
26:44
you know, they don't have to be out, you know, necessarily in
26:47
the real world workforce. But just even dealing with A1 on
26:50
one situation, these people, they're just completely
26:53
paralyzed by not but this innate human behavior has been blocked
27:00
off. That's such, I've never heard it
27:02
said like that. So thank you for saying that.
27:04
Yeah, it's, it's one of the clinical affect, not being able
27:08
to see affect change in people. It's one of the classic
27:11
hallmarks of ASD autism spectrum disorder, right?
27:15
Like, are you mad? Are you cynical?
27:19
Are you frustrated? Are you know, all the different
27:22
emotions like on the drama wall, right.
27:27
And, and and you know, again, what, like you just said,
27:30
hunched over on your phone, you're not learning how to read,
27:34
read those things. And that can be detrimental to
27:37
social interactions, friendships, community.
27:40
You know, the Harvard Along longevity study said more than
27:47
social economic class and healthcare, your connectivity in
27:50
your community and friendships were the biggest predictors of
27:55
longevity. So if you don't have friends,
27:58
you're kind of screwed. And yeah, I think that's, again,
28:04
it is one of the reasons I'm in this for 30 years is to see that
28:08
change in people when they come out of that first step of
28:11
treatment, when they're firing on all cylinders and there's a
28:15
glow to their face and they're connected with themselves.
28:18
And I think it's it's a beautiful thing.
28:20
And from my by by face and from being a social worker, I think
28:25
when you tune out the noise you you get, I think you have a
28:29
connection with some people call it higher power.
28:32
I call it the holy to, to, to, to realize there's there's more
28:36
to life and something beyond ourselves.
28:38
And, you know, when I'm watching sports 24/7 or watching movies
28:43
or clips or stuff like that, I can really deaden myself to that
28:47
part of myself. And I think there's some really
28:49
good books on taking a phone, sabbaths and and getting away
28:55
from it for a while to re reset yourself.
28:58
There's a lot of great documentation there.
29:00
I'm reading a book on what the medieval monks tell us about
29:04
distractions. A lot of medieval monks who went
29:07
away from society to get away from it and they struggle with
29:11
distractions. There's lots of there's some
29:14
great tools out there. I'll let you, I'll, I'll pass
29:17
that book on to you when I see you next because it's it's very
29:21
interesting that other ages have dealt with this too.
29:25
Maybe not to level we do, but nothing new under the sun, they
29:29
say. Yeah.
29:30
Well, exactly. And I mean, even though I'm
29:32
sitting here laughing at the idea of monks having to go out
29:35
on a self-imposed, you know, sabbatical away from technology
29:40
instructions, but it's but, but like you said, there's nothing
29:43
new under the sun. And everything I've learned in
29:45
recovery, it's everything that it's all ancient, you know,
29:49
ancient practices, whether it's prayer, meditation, inventory,
29:53
sharing, you know, with others, you know, admitting to my to
29:57
God, myself and other human being, whatever it is, it's
29:59
nothing, nothing new under the sun.
30:01
And that's, that's such an important thing to do.
30:03
It's just kind of different versions of of the same old song
30:06
of dance. It's very true, yeah.
30:09
And so you're, I wanted to ask you about John Huey because I
30:13
remember the first time I met with you in your office and you
30:15
talked about he, he is one of the original Outward Bound
30:18
people. And we just kind of talk about
30:20
how that, I mean, it seems obvious maybe the wilderness
30:24
piece, but how that John himself and Outward Bound has sort of
30:28
shaped what you did and do today.
30:32
Well, I think it is certainly the underpinnings of of Outward
30:37
Bound. It had started in England with
30:39
folks who would sailors and the younger ones were, you know,
30:44
losing their shit, so to speak, and the older ones were calm and
30:48
and so the original thought was to how can you stay?
30:52
How can you gain some leadership and some, I don't, I'll probably
30:56
butcher the language, but how can you be resourceful and
30:59
strong and had to have self efficacy?
31:03
And you know, as a sailor and a lot of that that stuff came into
31:08
they're they're, they're Expeditionary learning, their
31:11
experiential learning. But I would think with John,
31:14
really it comes down to like being around high integrity
31:17
people with a focus program to really empower kids.
31:22
You know, you go on a hike in outward Bound and at the end
31:25
you're leading the hike, the instructors are behind and
31:28
you're have the compass, right? So you're, you're, you're
31:30
learning by doing and then you're, you're going beyond your
31:34
comfort zone and, and, and you know, just a lot of vicarious
31:39
learning and just just letting the mountains and the beauty
31:43
speak for itself and you're out there and experiencing it.
31:46
So, and that's a lot of, you know, you put then you put a
31:50
mental health helmet on and do that sort of thing, whether it's
31:54
in a program or outside. It can be very helpful and
31:59
apologize to those who understand Outward Bound.
32:02
I probably butchered some of the language, but it's essentially
32:05
learning by doing, say making a fire from bow drilling.
32:09
It'd be a lot easier to just use a a lighter and put a bunch of
32:14
gas in and make a fire. But you spend 10 hours crafting
32:18
a sage bow drill set and make fire from friction the way that
32:24
our ancestors did for thousands of years.
32:27
You learn something in the process.
32:30
We, we in a young adult program, we used to do a sweat lodge
32:33
where we bake these lava rocks for 1068 hours and then put,
32:39
make a sweat lodge out of old canvases and bark, Birch bark
32:44
and different things. And we'd spent all day and then
32:47
sit and have a two or three hour sweat lodge, praying, crying,
32:51
singing. And you know, you can say, well,
32:55
bunch of us could get together and drop some acid and have a
32:57
pretty intense time. But we took the time to make a
33:00
sacred space all day and then looked inside ourselves.
33:06
We hydrated ourselves and it was young adults sweat lodges with
33:10
teenagers sometimes is is difficult with a liability and
33:14
stuff, but I was young adults. It's really powerful to see you
33:18
take a longer time to do something like a sweat lodge or
33:22
a bow drill, fire or learn map and compass on with pencil and
33:26
paper and you're training a brain to do something different.
33:29
So that's my answer to that question.
33:32
Well, that's a thank you for that.
33:34
And I, I will share this again. I've shared it recently on this
33:37
podcast with our friend Matt Nannus.
33:40
This came up, I think on this episode.
33:42
But I, I, and I've told you this, I did out were bound at
33:45
Hurricane Island in Maine when I was 16.
33:49
And, and we, we had this project where we had to take these two
33:56
ropes and take tie it across 2 docks and figure out a way to
33:59
get across. And it, you know, it was me who
34:01
I was a good athlete and, you know, competent is, you know,
34:05
relatively speaking to the others in the group and all
34:07
this, you know, boys, girls. And we put we've set this thing
34:11
up. And I was the only person who
34:13
fell off this rope going across the two docks into the water and
34:19
everybody else was able to get it.
34:20
And I remember making this decision right there on the
34:22
spot. I can just sit here and waddle
34:25
around and in the water and tell somebody like, Hey, I can't do
34:28
it and just swim to the shore or I can do this again.
34:31
And I and I did it again and I got the got across it and I
34:33
remember right then and there I'll never forget this and that
34:37
kind of to strive and not to yield.
34:39
I think that's the motto of outbound.
34:41
And of course I have failed to implement that my life over and
34:45
over again, but I've never forgotten it.
34:47
And so I just wanted to say that again.
34:49
So. In 1983, Doctor John Huey did a
34:53
four day Outward Bound course with Jimmy Carter and his family
34:57
and his staff from the Carter Center, and they did that same
35:00
thing. That's really cool.
35:03
And it was very powerful. And I've, yeah, John would go
35:09
down and have lunch with Jimmy and Rosalind.
35:11
And I would ask him about stories about that time.
35:15
And one quick story I don't think he'll mind me saying, is
35:18
Jimmy and Rosalind every night collected everybody's plates and
35:24
went down the river and cleaned all the dishes for everybody.
35:28
And no one asked them to do that.
35:31
That's cool. That's really cool.
35:33
If you need any evidence that he was a good guy, I think that's
35:35
it. Well, I love it.
35:38
Well, that I think that's probably a good place to wind
35:41
it. Justin, you got any more
35:42
questions for for Jesse? No, we appreciate it, Jesse.
35:44
It's a good, good conversation, man.
35:47
Yeah, I wish I could talk to you all day.
35:48
I'd really appreciate talking to y'all again.
35:50
I'm not just shining your apples.
35:52
I think y'all do some great work there.
35:54
I've I've toured your program a couple times.
35:56
I'm really thankful y'all are there helping folks in Raleigh
36:00
and there's nothing better from my seat here in the office than
36:04
a really good competent program. I know y'all are somewhat new,
36:07
but having a good fit for folks out there, there's nothing
36:11
better and then you know, nothing worse than having a bad
36:17
fit and, and I'm just glad y'all are out there.
36:19
And thanks for including me in this time.
36:25
Well, thank you so much, Jesse. And I'm not just saying you're
36:27
one of my favorite people I've met working in this field and I
36:30
can't. I'm coming to see you in about
36:32
two weeks. We're going to go see Robert
36:33
Plant. Oh yeah, I I watched the
36:35
documentary on Led Zeppelin on Netflix last night, which is
36:39
quite a good deal. When they got real famous, they
36:42
might have done well with a program to get away with some of
36:46
the trappings of rock stardom, but I suppose we could talk
36:50
about that in a couple weeks. We can definitely, we can do a
36:53
follow up and talk about all the celebrities who would have
36:55
benefited from wilderness and treatment.
36:57
And now we're bound. All right, well, all right.
37:00
Well, Jesse, thank you so, so much for being here.
37:02
And we just, we can't wait to see you again soon.
37:05
I'll see you actually in Charlotte 1st and then
37:07
Asheville. All right, take good care y'all.
37:09
I appreciate your time man. If you liked what you heard
37:12
today or just want to know more, give us a call on 9196708119 or
37:18
visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.
37:20
Thank you.