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EAW 7: Carola Beekman - Maheo Equine Assisted Learning · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
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  New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
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  Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
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  You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
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  Here on Equine Assisted World.
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  We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
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  established in the equine assisted field.
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  This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
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  physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
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  These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
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  Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
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  Welcome back, everybody, to Equine Assisted World, where we talk to
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  people who are helping our species, humanity, with the assistance
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  of these incredible beings that we call Equus Equus, the horse.
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  And the reason, as you know, that we call it Equine Assisted World rather than
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  Therapeutic and so forth is because it's such, it's, it's grown so exponentially
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  to such a wide field in the last 10 years or so, that To limit it to just
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  one form of a therapeutic approach of course would not do justice to the to
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  the, to the universe and mosaic of really interesting work that is out there.
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  And so with that in mind we, as you know, look internationally for the first
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  time on the show, we're going to be talking to somebody in the Netherlands.
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  And the Netherlands is an interesting place because it's both a very
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  forward thinking and Some would say liberal, others would say
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  enlightened country both in education, therapeutic approaches and so forth.
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  And also it's rather rule based.
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  So, navigating that rather interesting mix of how to...
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  Supply and deliver services is not without its challenges.
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  And yet at the same time, one is dealing with a country where the acceptance
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  of alternative therapeutic approaches and so on is well established.
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  And someone who's been at the center of that for the last decade or so
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  is my guest today, Carola Beekman.
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  Carola Beekman from the Netherlands who has bootstrapped a really cutting
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  edge approach to equine assisted work there over the last decade or so.
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  And her organization, Maheo, , which is near Arnhem in the eastern part of
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  the Netherlands is doing work both in and outside of the mainstream and in
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  and outside of horse training, not just working with special needs that brings
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  really some unusual and very, very valuable contributions to the work.
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  So, Carola welcome to.
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  Equine Assisted World.
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  Thank you for coming on.
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  Can you explain to us the word Maheo?
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  What does it
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  Carola Beekmann: mean?
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  MAheo is an Hawaiian or Polynesian word and it means proud, right?
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  I saw it in a In a movie about a troubled girl who went to a farm with
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  horses and that place was called Maheo.
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  And I always told myself, if I ever get my own place, it will be called Maheo.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So proud, proud to be yourself, proud and
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  Carola Beekmann: yeah.
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  Yes.
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  Yeah.
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  So to become proud of who you are.
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  So we help you to become you and be really proud of yourself.
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  Rupert Isaacson: That's a wonderful place to begin.
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  Carola Beekmann: Thank you so much for inviting me.
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  I'm happy to be here.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell us who you are, and perhaps how and
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  why you got into this funny old business of the equine assisted world?
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  Carola Beekmann: Sure.
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  I live in my with my husband and my daughter in a little town called Drempt,
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  which is about 20 kilometers from Arnhem, in the east of the Netherlands.
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  And I started my career as a teacher and already during my my days in college, I
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  chose the path of the special needs kids.
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  One of the reasons was, is I am myself as I was myself, a special needs kid.
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  And yeah, after a 20 years in working in schools, first as a teacher, then
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  as a special needs coordinator, coach for teachers, et cetera I did my
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  school principal educational program and decided that There wasn't a school
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  that I would like to lead because the way I wanted it it didn't exist.
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  So, that was one of the reasons why I quit working in schools.
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  And in the meantime I've been also always been a horsey girl.
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  I was the kind of girl who had her walls plastered with pony posters
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  and would Get any moment to, to go to a pony near to feed it a carrot or
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  something and to give it a, a brush or whatever I was allowed to do.
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  So, I also really became interested in horse training.
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  So at the end of my career as a school teacher, I was combining it
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  with being a horse riding instructor.
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  And for that, I did clinics abroad.
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  Went to all kinds of interesting places like South Africa, Kazakhstan, Qatar
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  Texas South Africa and Finland too.
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  And that was cool.
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  And then there came a moment where I could combine the two, the special needs
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  kids and the training of the horses.
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  And yeah, that's when this all got started.
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  Tell me,
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  Rupert Isaacson: you say that you were a special needs kid yourself.
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  That's really intriguing.
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  What type of special needs kid were you?
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  Carola Beekmann: Well, it was first of all I really struggled to learn how to read.
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  That was one of my earlier struggles.
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  The other one was concentration.
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  I was really good at concentrating where the fly in the classroom was.
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  I'm not as much paying attention to what I was supposed to do.
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  I was also one of those kids who never, never could figure out when,
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  which subject would be like after a short break on a Thursday, everybody
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  would pull out their geography books.
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  And I was like, why are you doing this?
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  And it turned out that every Thursday after the short break, we got geography.
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  I had no idea.
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  So, the whole Time, uh, awareness.
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  It just wasn't there.
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  And the other thing that happened later in is that I got really badly bullied.
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  And it became so bad I got so stressed out that I lost all my hair.
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  So, at the age of 12, 13, I was completely bald.
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  I just had one or two little hairs here in front, and the rest of my hair was gone.
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  Pure due to the stress of being bullied.
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  That's
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  Rupert Isaacson: a very, very hard thing for an adolescent
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  girl to go through, as you said.
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  So you say, you're saying right at your, as basis, puberty hits.
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  you lose your, your hair in school that had to be something
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  of a nightmare, surely?
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  Carola Beekmann: Definitely.
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  And not just for me, for my parents as well, of course.
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  I heard that later especially from my dad, how much he worried about
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  me, but yeah, there were definitely suicidal thoughts at times.
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  But I couldn't figure out how to Leave this life without hurting other
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  people around me like my family.
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  So That's what kept me going because I didn't want to hurt other people
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  But yeah, it was a a tough time.
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  Definitely.
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  Were you involved?
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  Yeah, and
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  Rupert Isaacson: Does this help you get through that?
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  Carola Beekmann: Yes, actually I was in a pony club, it was just starting
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  because I remember one time we had a jumping lesson and I was always
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  there with my helmet on, right?
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  So nobody really knew or saw.
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  And we had a jumping lesson and I fell off, my helmet fell off and one of the
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  dads rushed to me to come and help me.
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  And he was just totally in shock because I was bald.
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  So yeah, I around that time, I started to spend a lot of time with my
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  neighbor's horse or a pony, actually.
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  Yeah, and that definitely helped me to have my happy moments outside of school.
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  And also, I was blessed in a way because I was, um, in my secondary
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  school in my own small town.
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  Which was a blessing and what's the opposite of blessing again?
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  It was also not so good because yeah, curse.
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  Thank you.
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  I lost the word.
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  Because you know, people in a village, they cause they gossip about you,
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  but also it's sheltered, right?
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  So the kids in my school, they, they know they knew who I was and, and
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  yeah, accepted me for what I was.
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  So.
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  In my secondary school, which was during that time, I made that decision when I
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  was both, um, yeah, it was okay there.
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  It was of course still hard, but the girl that used to bully me was, didn't
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  go to that same secondary school.
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  So I was yeah, we were separated because of the school change and yeah,
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  then I slowly started to heal again.
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  But yeah, that pony, every minute out of school, not having
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  to do homework, I was there.
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  So, so you and, and
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  Rupert Isaacson: the pony young just tell me quickly I, I don't mean to make you
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  dwell on a painful time, but obviously this is, gives one, no, it's okay.
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  Yeah.
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  How long did it take for you to get to a point where your, your stress levels,
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  your cortisol levels could come down enough that your hair could regrow
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  and you could feel the confidence to then go on and clearly, you know, do
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  well in secondary, you know, Later education and so on to the point where
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  you could be thinking about becoming a school principal because obviously
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  that takes quite a lot of confidence.
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  Can you just do a little bit of how that shifted for you?
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  Because I think that will inform a lot about the equine assisted work.
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  Carola Beekmann: Well, I, it took me about until the end of my second
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  grade in, in secondary school.
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  So about two years to, to get my, my feedback on the ground.
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  anD that the main thing why I remember that so clearly, because
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  then my my grades really went up.
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  I remember the, the headmaster of my primary school said I, I should go to
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  the lowest level of secondary school because I couldn't deal with more.
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  And luckily my parents supported me and I went one level up, um, and I really
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  struggled the first two years because of all the stress and all the, well,
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  I now know all the cortisol and Yeah.
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  At the end of the second year, my, my grades went up and I
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  started to feel more okay.
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  And during that time I was really active in in the pony club and we had
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  competitions nearly every Saturday, which we went to in a big truck, load
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  up all the ponies and go somewhere around in our area to go out for a day.
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  And those Saturdays were a blessing for me.
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  to, to hang out with the horses and with my friends and do
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  the dressage and the jumping.
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  So I, I kind of lived for those Saturdays.
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  Yeah, they, they really helped me through that period.
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  Rupert Isaacson: That, that is somewhat surprising because, you
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  know, my, my memories of competing as a teenager which I did a lot of too.
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  I found it quite stressful.
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  How did you deal with, given that you were suffering from stress, you
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  know, to the point that your, your hair had fallen out and so on, did
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  you not find the same stresses in the competition world of riding, or did
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  you somehow manage to make some sort of separation in that, in your mind?
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  What was going on there?
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  Carola Beekmann: Yeah, I, I guess for me, the, the joy of being with my pony club.
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  With all my friends and also especially for the dressage
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  part of it, I was pretty good.
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  So, I, I didn't really have to struggle to get all my points
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  to, to get to the next level.
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  And I think that also did a lot with my confidence because well, once
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  I was like 16, 17, I wrote it at the highest level of my pony club.
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  And I could kind of start helping and coaching the younger kids.
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  So, I think for me, the, my mom, in hindsight, my mom said you, you were
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  really nervous every Saturday morning.
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  She couldn't say anything to me and I would snap.
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  I don't really recall that.
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  How unusual for so it must be true.
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  So, so yeah, there was definitely some stress, but I think it was like more
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  like a stage fright kind of stress.
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  Not really that, uh, trauma stress it's, it's, it's a different feel.
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  Yeah.
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  I
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  Rupert Isaacson: I hear you at least for me.
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  And there's a bit of a clue in what you were saying there too.
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  You said that you were really enjoying being with this group
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  of friends in the Pony Club.
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  So you found community and some sort of tribal, familial support there.
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  Why do you think that?
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  And Go ahead, you go ahead and I'll come back to this question in a minute.
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  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
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  The interesting one is that the girl that bullied me in primary school.
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  Was at the same pony club.
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  Because we both were a bit older.
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  Yeah, we, we got along.
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  It, it was my mom who really could never forgive her for what she did
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  to me, but for her and me, myself, it was a non issue at that time, really.
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  So you managed to make it.
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  I, I, I questioned.
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  Yeah, I, I actually.
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  I never asked her, but I actually don't think that she remembers it like that.
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  She bullied me.
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  And later on, when I went to college to become a teacher, I I
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  also learned that problem is with the one that bullies and not.
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  The victim of the bullying that really gave me a different perspective on her.
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  Like she, you know, she lived on a farm.
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  The rest of us all lived in the village, so she might have felt like
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  an outsider herself and needed to, I don't know make herself bigger and more
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  important to feel seen or whatever.
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  So, but yeah, we made peace with it and we did pony camps together and
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  competing together and it was all good.
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  Yeah, my mom, my mom held a grudge, which I can also understand.
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  Rupert Isaacson: That's a really, really good insight.
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  I think it's quite rare for somebody to have gone through that full cycle
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  of being the victim, going through the suffering, making peace with it,
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  forgiving the perpetrator then making peace with the perpetrator and going on
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  to forge a new relationship with them.
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  At that young age, that must...
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  obviously inform a lot.
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  Of the work that you do now, the fact that you could, do you feel that
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  because you managed to, um, go through and not stay in the victim role?
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  That must give you insights now into the populations that you're working
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  with in the equine assistive world.
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  Would, would you
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  Carola Beekmann: think?
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  Yes, absolutely.
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  There's always a deeper, um, meaning behind behavior.
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  You know, people are not mean just because they're mean or you know,
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  there's always a story behind it.
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  And for me, it's always very interesting to, uh, find the story,
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  like what is hurting you, what is frustrating you, what's, what's
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  the story behind your anger or.
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  your dominance or in other cases why are you so introvert?
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  What, what's the story behind it?
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  And that's always.
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  For me, a trigger to really get to know the person and then help them
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  through whatever is bugging them that makes them behave the way they behave.
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  So yeah, definitely.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So you, you also told us that you had a natural penchant,
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  which I guess also must have helped, as you said, with your regaining
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  of confidence in the dressage.
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  I do know that you went on to have and pro and still do have quite a full career
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  in dressage training just so that people listening can understand your background.
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  Cause we're going to talk about how you've brought that into
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  your equine assisted work.
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  Can you tell us a little bit about the dressage path that you followed?
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  And then we can return to that in the context of, of the equine
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  assisted work in a, in a moment.
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  Carola Beekmann: So of course in the pony club and as a young adult,
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  I just did what everybody did, the, the, the English way of writing.
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  And then I stumbled upon a horse, which that didn't work for.
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  And I got to know a an instructor who, uh, came from the academic
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  side of the horse training.
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  So really.
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  From the old way of horse training and, and instead of.
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  A horse for the dressage to make us look good and fill our egos with
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  being beautiful and doing cool stuff totally reversing it and saying,
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  okay, this is dressage for the horse.
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  So we look at this horse, we see what this horse needs.
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  And then we use these particular exercises to build up this horse.
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  So, strengthening the hind legs flexibility, balance, all that stuff
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  really tailor made to the horse.
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  And that is what really got me excited again, also because of the, after
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  the birth of my daughter, I wasn't interested in, in the competition anymore.
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  One, because what I saw at the competitions is how other
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  people mistreated their horses.
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  That really made me sad.
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  And the other was really practical with a, with a baby.
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  You don't have time at least.
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  I couldn't make the time to compete.
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  So, reversing that process, like, okay, looking at each individual horse and what
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  do you need to gain your strength and flexibility, but also their confidence
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  is yeah, a big shift I made in the horse training and that of course is
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  in a, has a strong relationship with how I work with the kids I work with and
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  the adults is not this is the program you we're going to do this program
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  and you need to fit in the program.
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  No, we're, this is who you are.
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  I have this framework, uh, but we're gonna totally tailor make it to your needs.
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  So that's for me, a big parallel between the horse riding and
• 21:54
  equine assisted work we do.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Tell me, tell us a little bit about this horse that changed your,
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  your way of looking at the dressage.
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  What, what was going on with this horse?
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  What was the story?
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  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  His name was Macho.
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  I got him when he was two and a half and he was my first
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  horse after my pony career.
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  He didn't know anything, so I had to train him myself and it was a huge struggle.
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  Nine years later, after many people had told me to get rid of him because he
• 22:28
  was dangerous and whatever I found out that he had trauma from his castration.
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  Both still physical pain as in back then not being sedated enough.
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  So he consciously went through that and it made him really stiff in his hind legs.
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  He really wanted to keep his junk as quiet as possible.
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  So he, he, he walked really still with his hind legs to, to keep it all as still
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  as possible, so didn't hurt that much.
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  So after treating that, I already had an 11 year old horse and then
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  I could finally start training him.
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  But yeah, it's, it's needed to be that tailor made way.
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  To really get him to teach him how to use his hind legs properly and,
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  and get the flexibility there and get him the confidence that he could
• 23:31
  move now and it didn't hurt anymore.
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  How did you find that was a long journey?
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  Rupert Isaacson: How did you find out that it was stretched and that's
• 23:39
  an interesting things I want a lot of horses must go through that.
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  Yes.
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  So yeah.
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  What did
• 23:45
  Carola Beekmann: you find out?
• 23:48
  Yeah.
• 23:48
  So yes, to say it's like one in six horses are still in some
• 23:54
  way suffering from their scar.
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  So how did I find it out?
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  I had a massage therapist with him.
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  She does she had to therapy and she said he, he responds
• 24:06
  differently than other horses.
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  And that was already when he was 10 or 11 and, and I said, because, you
• 24:13
  know, I was trying everything, you know, I had saddle maker fits for
• 24:17
  his back, whatever, I tried it all.
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  And then I said, well, okay, you know, I have him since he was two and a half,
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  uh, nothing really special happened.
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  So if there is something, it must have been between his
• 24:33
  birth or maybe his conception.
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  And two and a half.
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  So what happens in that period, his castration.
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  So she, during the massage, she went with her hand towards, um, his
• 24:49
  private parts and he just freaked out.
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  Okay.
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  The problem is right there.
• 24:58
  And then I had I brought him to an holistic fat and I had to put
• 25:04
  some, Um, special cream on the scar to, to, to soften the scar tissue.
• 25:12
  So that was one part of it.
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  And he got like, silver pearls, homeopathic pearls for the trauma release.
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  And, uh, I didn't know back then what I saw but he started to yawn and, and
• 25:29
  chew and lick and yawn and yawn more.
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  So now I know what that all means, but back then I didn't, you know, the.
• 25:36
  stable owner.
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  She came and stand with me.
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  She's like, wow, what's going on here?
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  And I was like, yeah, he's being treated.
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  So she already knew more than I at that time.
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  So yeah, that was the start of his healing process.
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  And he died one day before his 21st birthday, but I got him up to, well, doing
• 26:01
  all the highest level massage movements.
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  He was still crawling, crawling a bit forward, but up to that level.
• 26:12
  So, yeah, he, he had a good life after his 11th birthday.
• 26:19
  So, but before that it was a big suffer for him.
• 26:22
  Yeah.
• 26:23
  Interesting that you, you, and I was grateful that I.
• 26:27
  Continue to search.
• 26:31
  Sorry, I interrupted you.
• 26:34
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm just finding it's, it's very interesting that you, you
• 26:36
  had this early trauma yourself, which you then recovered from through horses.
• 26:41
  And then you ended up with a special needs horse who had had trauma, physical trauma.
• 26:47
  Yes.
• 26:47
  But of course the emotional trauma is obviously a given with that kind of an
• 26:51
  injury and injury and invasion, you know?
• 26:56
  So, so you said that you found your way through.
• 27:00
  Also with the training with him, so beyond the actual treatment of the injury and the
• 27:05
  trauma, as you said, the release of the trauma, you also found your way through
• 27:09
  academic approaches to horse training.
• 27:12
  When you say the old way, I presume you mean the Baroque way, like the old
• 27:15
  masters way, would that be correct?
• 27:18
  Yes,
• 27:18
  Carola Beekmann: exactly.
• 27:19
  Yes, exactly.
• 27:21
  Yeah.
• 27:22
  So what would you
• 27:23
  Rupert Isaacson: say marks that out so differently or particularly
• 27:27
  differently from the other more modern conventional forms of horse
• 27:34
  training that we'd see today?
• 27:35
  What's, what's the main difference that you would think in terms
• 27:37
  of the benefit for the horse?
• 27:44
  Carola Beekmann: Because you're doing it for the horse and not for a test.
• 27:49
  It's a completely different way of thinking.
• 27:53
  You know, you can, you can write a particular exercise because you're
• 27:58
  up for competing and that exercise needs to be shown in your dressage
• 28:02
  test, or you can write that particular exercise to build up your horse.
• 28:09
  And I, for me, that's.
• 28:11
  the main difference that I, I see, or I always look for what does this horse need?
• 28:18
  And it can be in hand or lunging, liberty ridden in the long lines.
• 28:25
  What makes this horse feel better, uh, mentally, emotionally
• 28:31
  what do they like to do?
• 28:32
  But also what makes them stronger and, and, and flexible physically.
• 28:40
  So, I think the, the different perspective.
• 28:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 28:44
  But given that we're all horse nerds, we can, we can, on this show, we
• 28:48
  can, we can dive in a little deeper.
• 28:50
  I'm sure viewers listeners would like to know what exercises did you
• 28:55
  do with this horse to Create the well being that hadn't been there.
• 29:02
  Can you remember sort of the basic program that you put him through?
• 29:06
  I know this obviously would have gone on over a couple of years, but
• 29:10
  nonetheless, can you sort of summarize for us what exercises did you do?
• 29:15
  A, B, C, D, E and F.
• 29:16
  How did you build him up in mind and body to well being?
• 29:23
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
• 29:24
  So, in the beginning, it was a lot of work on the circle.
• 29:28
  So, I could teach him a proper lateral bending and forward down
• 29:34
  and stepping under of the hind leg.
• 29:37
  And that was his main issue is that he had such lack of flexibility
• 29:43
  in his hind leg because he was used to working, walking so short.
• 29:49
  so I really had to teach him that he could lengthen his stride and
• 29:54
  really step under his belly on the circle to get that flexibility.
• 30:00
  After the circles, I went to the shoulder in.
• 30:04
  First I did a lot of it in hand.
• 30:07
  So without the weight of of the rider on top.
• 30:10
  And yeah, so the shoulder in that both trains, the lateral bending,
• 30:15
  the forward down and more exaggerated stepping under what we call on
• 30:19
  three tracks of the inside hind leg.
• 30:21
  So.
• 30:22
  anD when he could do that, we advanced to the horn chaussein, which trains
• 30:28
  again, the lateral bending, but in this case, the outside hind leg to
• 30:33
  step under, which is a, where the body is slightly different movement
• 30:36
  than an inside leg stepping under.
• 30:39
  And from that, we progressed to half parts and work periods.
• 30:45
  And in that way, got more collection, more weight to the hind legs.
• 30:51
  And what I did is after he was good with a particular exercise in hand, I
• 30:59
  would start doing them written as well.
• 31:01
  So I would add my own weight and get, give all the aids from on
• 31:05
  top instead of from the ground.
• 31:07
  And that really gave him a lot of confidence because he,
• 31:10
  he knew he could do the move.
• 31:13
  He had the strength and the balance and well with me on top, he needed to
• 31:18
  get a bit more stronger and a bit more balanced, but because he already knew
• 31:22
  what to do, it really gave him the confidence to, to do those movements and
• 31:28
  doing more and more of that movement.
• 31:31
  made him stronger and more confident.
• 31:34
  Yeah, he became a different horse.
• 31:37
  Rupert Isaacson: So did you find that the in his physical strength
• 31:42
  and Suppleness and dexterity.
• 31:46
  It's really interesting that you say it had a a mental and
• 31:49
  emotional knock on effect.
• 31:51
  Because of course, a lot of people have encountered, say,
• 31:54
  sport dressage sort of feel.
• 31:56
  Okay, that's not dressage, that's stressage.
• 31:58
  You know, it's interesting to hear about the dressage being done.
• 32:03
  Really is the therapeutic work for a horse.
• 32:05
  Would you compare that say to martial arts, like you could use a martial arts
• 32:10
  move to fight, or you could also use it to heal an injury you got in a fight,
• 32:17
  depending on how the, how the martial arts teacher was looking at that.
• 32:21
  Is it something similar to that?
• 32:25
  Carola Beekmann: Yes, absolutely.
• 32:27
  And, and the other way I compare it to is yoga.
• 32:33
  You, you make them flexible and strong in a way that you say, Oh, do
• 32:38
  you really need that in daily life?
• 32:41
  Because you have that extra strength and extra flexibility.
• 32:45
  Daily life gets much more easy to, to get through.
• 32:49
  So yeah, it's both the martial arts concept and the yoga concept for me.
• 32:55
  Okay.
• 32:56
  Rupert Isaacson: That's, that's interesting because obviously in a lot of
• 32:59
  the therapeutic riding well to date, at least traditionally, that sort of horse
• 33:05
  training does not seem to have been a.
• 33:09
  A part of of the approaches.
• 33:13
  In fact you know, one of the things that struck me quite often when I was
• 33:18
  looking at it in the early days was that horses were often clearly in pain or,
• 33:24
  you know, stiff and old and arthritic and had been donated to therapeutic riding
• 33:29
  places because they were quiet, um, but seems to be hurting in their bodies.
• 33:34
  And I think, I think a lot of people have seen this.
• 33:38
  Do you feel.
• 33:40
  Is, is it something unusual your approach to this equine wellbeing?
• 33:45
  We're going to go into your, your, your equine assisted
• 33:48
  work in a, in a, in a moment.
• 33:50
  Or do you think this is something that's great?
• 33:52
  Is it something that's more there in the Netherlands or would you still say within
• 33:56
  the, within that equine assisted world, within the Netherlands, your approach
• 34:02
  through this kind of old masters yoga for the horse is something a bit unusual?
• 34:08
  Whoa.
• 34:08
  Whoa.
• 34:08
  What, where do you feel it's at
• 34:10
  Carola Beekmann: now?
• 34:13
  Yeah, there's definitely more and more attention for horse welfare in the, in
• 34:20
  the, in the assisted quite assisted world.
• 34:23
  In the Netherlands, there are studies being done, there are
• 34:27
  Rules and regulations, of course, because we are the Netherlands.
• 34:30
  But the, this way of training yeah, I'm, I'm definitely pioneering in that
• 34:36
  and I'm trying to bring it over to the.
• 34:42
  The, the traditional writing for people with special needs.
• 34:50
  And there's definitely interest, but we, we have to see how we can build
• 34:55
  it in because of the time limits, as you well aware of these horses need to
• 35:01
  work and there's not always, or always not timed for extra time for training.
• 35:08
  So we, we, we are building a system as you.
• 35:12
  taught me through Athena, like, okay, how can we serve the clients and train
• 35:19
  the horses sort of at the same time.
• 35:21
  So, I'm, I'm getting my feelers out here and there's interested and we are
• 35:28
  we're going to start off with the, the horse boy one with those instructors.
• 35:33
  And from that we will deepen and widen their knowledge hopefully
• 35:37
  in the, in the near future.
• 35:39
  Rupert Isaacson: So, so you feel that one can serve the client.
• 35:44
  And the horse at the same time without there having to be a
• 35:46
  time conflict in the training.
• 35:48
  Can the, can the training itself be the therapeutic session
• 35:52
  that you do with the client?
• 35:55
  Carola Beekmann: Yes, absolutely.
• 35:56
  Like the the way we do the, the back riding.
• 36:02
  The horse moves at least in a healthy way.
• 36:05
  And if you make a lot of transitions and turns during all the play.
• 36:11
  You're also training the horse while he is carrying a kid and
• 36:15
  you on top, same for long lines.
• 36:18
  If you if you do it in, in in a way that you can serve your clients,
• 36:25
  you can also serve your horse.
• 36:27
  Because again, you, through the ways that you taught us all The
• 36:31
  horse moves in a healthy way.
• 36:33
  And when you, can you talk, talk to us how you,
• 36:37
  Rupert Isaacson: how do you use the the lunging, the lo, the in-hand work and the
• 36:41
  long reigning when you're serving clients?
• 36:43
  Can you for, for, I think for a lot of listeners, this
• 36:45
  might be something quite new.
• 36:47
  Can you talk us through?
• 36:48
  Like a session where you would be using those techniques as
• 36:52
  part of the client session.
• 36:54
  So I think in a lot of people's minds, it's still leading horses around
• 36:57
  in circles with somebody on top.
• 36:59
  How are you, how are you using things like lunging, long reining and, and in
• 37:04
  hand work when you're serving clients?
• 37:06
  I think that would be really useful for us to know.
• 37:11
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
• 37:11
  So,
• 37:12
  for example, for the, for the long lining you know, Ideally you go out on trails.
• 37:19
  I don't have many here.
• 37:20
  I can go around the village, but I do a lot of my work in the arena.
• 37:24
  So yeah, I lose, I use all sorts of play equipments and also the, the
• 37:30
  the letters in the arena and I add numbers there and then we can just.
• 37:35
  Yeah, we do games like tag or hide and seek and all kinds of variations
• 37:41
  in which the horse needs to go to the left or go to the right, do
• 37:45
  a little trot, do a little walk.
• 37:47
  I even have one that can do a few countersteps in the long lines.
• 37:51
  So you get the kid on top getting a lot of nice movement imbalance.
• 37:58
  Rhythmic and the horse through all the changes of direction and all the
• 38:03
  transitions from walk to canter to hold to pot gets his training in the meanwhile.
• 38:09
  Okay.
• 38:10
  And there's a big difference between that and, and leading the, yeah.
• 38:15
  So when you're leading the horse, it goes a bit forward, too much forward down.
• 38:21
  And the child on top or the adult on top will lean forward with that with,
• 38:27
  and then they, they have to engage their psoas muscles, which gives them
• 38:32
  a stress reaction because those, that muscle and that stress reaction is.
• 38:36
  Directly connected.
• 38:38
  So, you want the horse to be in a, in a nice horizontal, even
• 38:44
  a bit heel up position to give the, the person on top the right.
• 38:51
  Balance and rhythm that
• 38:55
  Rupert Isaacson: you talk about, can you, you said the, so if, if they end
• 39:00
  up, if they talk forward and they end up engaging the psoas muscle some people
• 39:03
  might think, Oh, well, that's good.
• 39:04
  They're engaging a muscle, but you said, no, actually that
• 39:07
  creates a stress reaction.
• 39:08
  Why, why is there a connection between this thing up the psoas muscle?
• 39:13
  If the horse is on the shoulders like that and stress what, what's
• 39:17
  going on there physiologically.
• 39:20
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
• 39:21
  So when, when the horse is on the shoulder, so, well we, the, also the,
• 39:26
  the geeky term is walking downhill.
• 39:29
  The rider on top or the person on top starts to lean
• 39:33
  forward to find their balance.
• 39:35
  And to, to be able to do that, you have to engage your psoas muscle, but that psoas
• 39:40
  muscle is a very important muscle that is connected to your fight flight response.
• 39:46
  So when you are in danger, you need to engage that muscle to
• 39:50
  either flee or start fighting.
• 39:54
  Or freeze is another response and a very extreme response is faint.
• 39:59
  So you, and that creates cortisol, a stress hormone, and that is
• 40:05
  what our population of clients.
• 40:08
  really struggle off.
• 40:10
  They have way too much cortisol, uh, flow flowing through their bodies.
• 40:15
  So we want the other hormone, which is called oxytocin.
• 40:21
  And that is the happiness hormone or the communication hormone which helps
• 40:27
  us to relax and wash out the cortisol.
• 40:30
  So, you need a horse that is at least horizontal and preferably hill up moving
• 40:37
  in a hill up or uphill, sorry kind of way.
• 40:42
  So that the,
• 40:43
  Rupert Isaacson: The person on top can relax the saddle.
• 40:46
  I see.
• 40:47
  Okay.
• 40:48
  Exactly.
• 40:48
  Yes.
• 40:50
  So, that's interesting because I guess in, in, in a lot of the
• 40:54
  traditional therapeutic environments, it's, it's been the opposite.
• 40:58
  It's been about leading horses rather than say, putting a horse in the
• 41:01
  long range to affect that balance.
• 41:04
  And you're putting your clients on top of the horse while they're in the long
• 41:09
  range so that they can achieve that.
• 41:12
  oXytocin, uh, and response and the release of the psoas muscle, is that correct?
• 41:19
  So, that's, that's interesting work.
• 41:23
  Do you also, can you get, can you get your clients to a point
• 41:27
  where they can also be the one?
• 41:29
  Not just sitting on the horse in the long range, but maybe doing the long reigning
• 41:33
  or doing the lunging or doing the in hand work, can you, can you, can you
• 41:38
  make them part of the team in that way?
• 41:42
  Carola Beekmann: Yes.
• 41:43
  So I have a couple of girls who are in their late teens, early twenties,
• 41:50
  and they really are getting interested in, in in the horse training part.
• 41:56
  So with them yeah, I teach them how to.
• 42:01
  How to launch and how to do a shoulder Indian hand and how to do a horn.
• 42:05
  She's Indian vet in hand.
• 42:06
  And I tell them what those movements do for the horse.
• 42:10
  And that really also builds up their own confidence because
• 42:14
  they are now training a horse.
• 42:16
  How cool is that?
• 42:18
  So, and in the meantime, they're moving around a lot outside in nature.
• 42:24
  Helping themselves getting a lot of happy hormones, the oxytocin
• 42:28
  and gaining confidence and becoming a part of a community
• 42:34
  here that takes care of our horses.
• 42:38
  So I always boost them up like, okay, thank you for training my horse.
• 42:43
  And now they can do a better job at helping the small children.
• 42:48
  So,
• 42:48
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 42:49
  Okay.
• 42:50
  So your, your old can end up serving your younger clients
• 42:53
  and the horse at the same time.
• 42:59
  Carola Beekmann: That's what I hope to achieve.
• 43:01
  So now it's still separate.
• 43:03
  They train the horses and the younger teens come at a separate time, but yeah,
• 43:08
  in the future I could see that happening.
• 43:09
  That's.
• 43:10
  That those two moments will start to merge together.
• 43:17
  Rupert Isaacson: That's that's obviously very evolved work to
• 43:21
  bring this old Baroque way of training maintaining the horse into
• 43:29
  the therapeutic sphere like this.
• 43:32
  What got you to make the shift from, okay, I'm a dressage person with
• 43:41
  my own background in some trauma.
• 43:42
  I've got this horse that's had trauma and I've healed this trauma.
• 43:46
  I now.
• 43:48
  Decided to not go off and become a school principal, but I've been
• 43:51
  working with special needs kids.
• 43:54
  One would think, Oh, no brainer, you know, to bring all those things together.
• 43:56
  Yet clearly that happened at a certain point in your life.
• 44:01
  At what point, when did, when, what you make the decision?
• 44:04
  Okay, I'm going to pull all this together.
• 44:11
  Carola Beekmann: It must have been 2013 or 2014 when within a couple of days one
• 44:20
  neighbor came to me and said, I read this book, I, I'm got it from the library.
• 44:26
  You would love it.
• 44:28
  And it was The Horseboy, the Dutch version, of course.
• 44:31
  And then a few days later, another neighbor came to me and said, I saw a
• 44:35
  documentary, it will blow your mind.
• 44:38
  And again, it was The Horseboy.
• 44:41
  And I was like, okay, this is two times in one week.
• 44:44
  There's something there.
• 44:46
  And so I read the book and couldn't get my hands on, on the documentary, but okay.
• 44:53
  I saw a little clip on YouTube and and because I was already in education,
• 45:02
  really working on the special needs side of the spectrum, um, and seeing more
• 45:09
  and more kids just not fitting in the.
• 45:13
  Normal schools, um, and my big passion for horses.
• 45:19
  And then, well, I read about this guy.
• 45:22
  His name is Rupert Isaacson and he is eating children on a horse.
• 45:27
  And I was like, okay.
• 45:28
  And then my dressage mentor at the time came to Texas where Rupert was
• 45:33
  at the moment and did a clinic there and they did a webinar together,
• 45:37
  like reaching out to the community.
• 45:40
  Okay.
• 45:40
  If you love training horses.
• 45:42
  You love special needs kids, come and join us.
• 45:45
  And then I I sent an email and I heard nothing back.
• 45:51
  And I sent another email and I heard nothing back.
• 45:53
  And then I went to the Facebook page and sent a message there.
• 45:57
  And then I got an answer like, we've been emailing you but
• 46:01
  you didn't get back to us.
• 46:03
  Like, okay, so.
• 46:04
  This really took some tenacity to get together.
• 46:07
  I didn't want to give up and obviously you didn't either.
• 46:11
  So, and then we met basically at a horse training event in
• 46:17
  Amsterdam and you did a demo there for horseboy one and my colleagues.
• 46:22
  I was already an instructor in that program.
• 46:25
  And my colleagues said, this is.
• 46:27
  This is your niche.
• 46:28
  You, you need to talk to this guy because this is totally you.
• 46:34
  And I was not as brave back then, but I did it.
• 46:37
  They pushed me towards you and we had a chat and yeah, then everything
• 46:41
  started to evolve from there.
• 46:44
  I remember the, one of the first things you asked me, like, can you
• 46:49
  arrange my book tour next year?
• 46:51
  Because your second book came out in the Netherlands.
• 46:54
  So, and I said, how are you?
• 46:57
  Having no idea what that meant, but I was ready to jump in.
• 47:02
  So yeah, then I went to Texas, I think early 2015.
• 47:09
  And yeah, I did all the training upside down.
• 47:11
  So I started with horseboy five, which is the camps.
• 47:15
  And you told me later on, that was a big test because I arrived and you said,
• 47:20
  okay, dump your big suitcase in a corner.
• 47:22
  Pick your small suitcase.
• 47:24
  We're going on a camp in about two hours.
• 47:26
  And you told me later on, like, okay, that is a test because if people start
• 47:31
  to push back and say, no, I need to do worse by one and then two and then, and
• 47:37
  then you would have sent me back to the airport, but yeah, I rolled with it.
• 47:41
  So, I got to stay, which I'm very grateful for.
• 47:47
  Us too.
• 47:48
  Rupert Isaacson: So that's how it all started.
• 47:50
  Right.
• 47:50
  The, the, the, the, the, the question though, in my mind is it's a brave step,
• 47:55
  you know, to say, okay, I'm going to switch careers and I'm going to switch
• 47:59
  careers on a act of faith, um, to do something that's quite difficult to
• 48:08
  do in a freelance way, self employed.
• 48:13
  After you've been, you know, employed through the school system, you've
• 48:15
  had a paycheck, you've had a, you know, and, and suddenly no, that's a
• 48:20
  completely, completely different way to, to begin to make one's livelihood.
• 48:24
  Because you know, one of the things one often sees is that, you know, that,
• 48:28
  that it's a temperament thing that some people are very, very well suited to a
• 48:32
  sort of entrepreneurial or, or sort of.
• 48:34
  Freelancing pioneering sort of way of making a living and other
• 48:39
  people absolutely are not and need that security and but there's,
• 48:43
  you know, both are equally valid.
• 48:46
  What made you take that leap of faith that you felt?
• 48:51
  Yeah, yeah, I can make this work after you've been in the school system.
• 48:54
  You'd had a paycheck.
• 48:56
  You'd had that safety net.
• 48:57
  What made you abandon that safety net?
• 49:01
  Carola Beekmann: Well, I did it gradually.
• 49:03
  I, I started to cut back my school days and, and on the other side,
• 49:09
  build up my, my own business.
• 49:11
  So I did it in a safe way.
• 49:13
  And, and I don't know how it is in all the other countries, but in
• 49:16
  the Netherlands, we have a constant
• 49:22
  How do you say that?
• 49:23
  Lack of teachers.
• 49:25
  So I would, I could always fall back, be a teacher again.
• 49:29
  So for me, that risk didn't feel as big as for some others, it could be because,
• 49:37
  you know, I would always have a job.
• 49:38
  They would, they are always in need of teachers and especially
• 49:43
  well, with my experience and with a special needs component.
• 49:46
  If I say today I would like to work in a school again, I
• 49:50
  think I will have 10 job offers.
• 49:52
  So, for me, it felt safe enough.
• 49:56
  And on the other side, my husband has paycheck every month.
• 50:00
  So, yeah, we, we felt like we could, we could do this.
• 50:06
  And yeah, there are months, years that I don't get to buy
• 50:11
  any new clothes for myself.
• 50:12
  But luckily I'm not a, I'm not a very needy person in that way.
• 50:17
  So I, so I don't get to spend a lot of money on me, but yeah, that's fine.
• 50:23
  I love to be in service.
• 50:26
  And not very high maintenance myself, luckily.
• 50:31
  So yeah.
• 50:33
  Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you dive in you start your therapeutic program.
• 50:42
  Tell us about the, how you got that off the ground because a lot
• 50:45
  of people will be listening who are considering making that leap.
• 50:50
  What were the first, tell us the stories of those, those first
• 50:54
  years, who were the clients that Jump out at you in your memory.
• 50:59
  What, what was the type of client you were mainly finding yourself meeting?
• 51:04
  And what were the challenges both in terms of the organization of it and in
• 51:09
  terms of your horses and that sort of thing that what the unexpected stuff.
• 51:14
  So, you know, who did you find in front of you as a client, how did you get it going?
• 51:20
  And yeah, what were the challenges?
• 51:22
  Carola Beekmann: How did you meet them?
• 51:27
  Yeah.
• 51:27
  So, in the early days.
• 51:30
  Most of my clients were either very young and non verbal kids with autism.
• 51:38
  aNd for me, the biggest challenge, the very biggest challenge was to
• 51:44
  get over myself and start asking for help because this you can't
• 51:48
  do by yourself, it's not possible.
• 51:50
  So, it took me a long time to, to, Get my act together and start asking for help.
• 51:59
  And the funny thing is I posted something on Facebook, like, okay,
• 52:03
  I'm going to do this who would like to, to volunteer here and there.
• 52:07
  And I got like within an hour, six horsey people I knew from back way
• 52:14
  when, or from now that says, yes, I would like to help with that.
• 52:19
  So, that was a big challenge for me because I was so used
• 52:23
  to doing everything by myself.
• 52:27
  so That was a big, uh, thing for me.
• 52:32
  So yeah, the, the challenges of these first couple of kids yeah, becoming
• 52:38
  verbal which is it's still miraculous every time you see it happen.
• 52:45
  Yeah, luckily we never get used to that.
• 52:47
  It never becomes normal because it is special.
• 52:50
  wHere was the
• 52:51
  Rupert Isaacson: first time you met the horse?
• 52:55
  Talk to us about that, that moment and what, what, what, what was
• 52:57
  happening with that child, that story?
• 53:00
  Carola Beekmann: He was a boy the very first one.
• 53:05
  His parents called him a runner.
• 53:07
  They were actually afraid to, to come because he would just
• 53:11
  run away everywhere in any way.
• 53:14
  He was obsessed with traffic signs.
• 53:16
  So if there was a traffic sign somewhere around, he just runs towards it.
• 53:21
  So, and he had such a.
• 53:25
  A tunnel vision for that that the first session we did in, in the
• 53:31
  indoor arena with with people.
• 53:34
  So there was nothing to crawl through also to, to keep the parents assured
• 53:42
  that that kid could not escape.
• 53:45
  And but the, the funny thing was in that session, I had my horse in there.
• 53:52
  jUst standing there with some hay and he just did not see her.
• 53:57
  And well, you know, my mayor, she's white and she's got spots and
• 54:01
  like, the Pippi Longstocking horse.
• 54:04
  So you really can't miss her.
• 54:06
  But he didn't see her.
• 54:09
  That was for me, mind blowing.
• 54:11
  And then the second time I put the traffic sign on her halter, like the
• 54:17
  triangle sign says beware of horses.
• 54:20
  And then he saw her.
• 54:22
  And then he started to, to interact with with her.
• 54:28
  That was, um, a moment I will never forget, like, okay, how
• 54:33
  can you not see a complete horse?
• 54:36
  But he, yeah.
• 54:37
  So, and then He was not okay with riding with me.
• 54:43
  So I put him in the long lines on, in the saddle together with his dad.
• 54:47
  And we just rode through the forest.
• 54:50
  We had traffic signs with us.
• 54:53
  For example, the sign for the blue sign for going left or right.
• 54:57
  And we presented to them, to him.
• 54:59
  And so he could make choices like, would you like to go left
• 55:02
  or right here or straight ahead?
• 55:04
  And first he started pointing and later on he would, would say the words like
• 55:11
  left, right, or he would, I would ask him questions like, would you like to walk?
• 55:16
  Would you like to trot?
• 55:17
  And then he would say trot, and then we trotted a bit.
• 55:20
  So through those choices we gave him with the traffic signs we, we gave, he
• 55:27
  started to, to use his first words and also Another very important traffic
• 55:33
  sign for him was the stop sign because, well, we needed to make it safe if
• 55:37
  you would go, uh, on a walkabout around his house, his parents needed
• 55:43
  him to stop, you know, at the curb before just running in front of a car.
• 55:49
  So we used a traffic sign to specifically teach him how to stop.
• 55:54
  So we would just hold up the sign and yell like, and because of that sign, he
• 56:03
  would he would go with it without a sign.
• 56:05
  You could stop for, well, as long as you want, but because of that sign, he he
• 56:12
  he was into it and we got to teach it.
• 56:14
  And, um, Later on, his parents could make a sequence of
• 56:19
  traffic signs around their home.
• 56:23
  beCause what happened is because he was so into the traffic
• 56:26
  signs, he would just go, go, go.
• 56:28
  And then he was tired.
• 56:29
  And then they had to carry him all the way home.
• 56:31
  So they could make routes in their neighborhood that
• 56:36
  wouldn't be too long for him.
• 56:38
  And he would end up at home.
• 56:39
  So they make like treasure hunts for, for signs, but they knew
• 56:43
  exactly which route it was.
• 56:45
  So, yeah.
• 56:47
  And then he involved to makes off cars.
• 56:51
  So, and in the place I was working, it was a riding school and a camping site.
• 56:57
  So we had a lot of cars also on site.
• 57:01
  So, we would start talking about all these makes and models of cars and
• 57:06
  reading the the plate numbers of the car.
• 57:10
  So yeah, that's how we got him to, to speak.
• 57:14
  And also he was very into Mickey Mouse clubhouse.
• 57:17
  So.
• 57:18
  He sang those songs endlessly and yeah, that's helped him become verbal.
• 57:25
  Rupert Isaacson: So you really tailored it to his interests.
• 57:27
  That's what's interesting too, is you said, you know, when he
• 57:31
  didn't, he didn't, he only wanted to get up there with his dad.
• 57:35
  That's obviously quite an unusual approach for a lot of therapeutic
• 57:38
  places because, you know, they wouldn't, They wouldn't put a parent up you
• 57:41
  know, to make it safe for a child.
• 57:43
  And then you, you use the long reins to sort of basically create an equine
• 57:48
  environment for the father and the son.
• 57:52
  Yeah.
• 57:54
  That's
• 57:54
  Carola Beekmann: wonderful.
• 57:55
  Yeah.
• 57:55
  So first we, we just, yeah, first we just put up the dads and we just walk around
• 58:01
  the play area at the campsite and the dad would be on top and the kid would be.
• 58:07
  I don't know on the trampoline or something.
• 58:09
  And then we stopped next to the trampoline and exactly.
• 58:15
  So show that, so that show that dad enjoys it and that horses can be ridden.
• 58:21
  You know, if you've never been around a horse, who knows
• 58:24
  you can sit on top of them.
• 58:25
  So, and then at one moment we stopped like straight next to the trampoline and
• 58:30
  the dad invited him to give him a hug.
• 58:33
  And there he was, he was sitting on top too.
• 58:36
  And it was first for a couple of seconds.
• 58:39
  He started to wiggle a bit.
• 58:41
  So, okay, put him back on the trampoline.
• 58:43
  And then the next time he would just sit and we could just, and we went
• 58:49
  off to into the forest and yeah.
• 58:52
  You could actually see his all expression in his face change
• 58:57
  as soon as he was on the horse.
• 59:00
  It was actually a, a former school colleague of mine that came to, to
• 59:05
  volunteer and watch it one time.
• 59:07
  She was a kindergarten teacher since forever and she said.
• 59:12
  This kid just totally changed when he sat on a horse like, okay, cool,
• 59:16
  because you know, I walked behind, so I see the back of the deck.
• 59:20
  That's cool information.
• 59:24
  So yeah, it's it's one of those things that yeah.
• 59:28
  And another story is another young kid who started talking with me
• 59:34
  and mom told his speech therapist and she didn't believe it because.
• 59:39
  At speech therapy, he did not talk.
• 59:42
  So I said to mom, bring the speech therapist with you next Saturday.
• 59:47
  And.
• 59:48
  Well, the brave lady did and the cool outcome was that from that moment on,
• 59:54
  she didn't do her speech therapy in her office, but in the playground next door.
• 1:00:00
  So yeah, she, she,
• 1:00:02
  Rupert Isaacson: she actually moved outside with the kid
• 1:00:04
  after watching you work.
• 1:00:06
  Carola Beekmann: Exactly.
• 1:00:07
  So she, she.
• 1:00:09
  Changed her whole approach with him and hopefully other kids after him.
• 1:00:15
  That's usual, that's unusual.
• 1:00:16
  So yeah.
• 1:00:17
  So yeah, love that.
• 1:00:20
  And, and it was, it was cool that she, he came out to, in her own time.
• 1:00:27
  Without anybody paying her to come and see what we were doing.
• 1:00:31
  So yeah, that was that was another cool experience.
• 1:00:36
  And the other, one of the early girls that really sticks in my
• 1:00:40
  mind is was an eight year old one.
• 1:00:43
  And They couldn't take perspective, so she had high levels of anxiety
• 1:00:51
  for example, when her mom left the room, she, when her mom was out of
• 1:00:56
  sight, she thought mom was dead.
• 1:00:59
  So usually around two and a half, three years, kids start to understand
• 1:01:04
  that if they can't see something, it's still there like peekaboo
• 1:01:09
  games like that hide and seek.
• 1:01:12
  bUt this girl never got through that milestone.
• 1:01:18
  So, during the intake and all the questions we asked beforehand, we kind
• 1:01:23
  of figured that out together with mom.
• 1:01:26
  So we started to do all the games and all our activities around
• 1:01:32
  perspective taken, and it was so cool.
• 1:01:35
  It was actually filmed because a colleague of mine was doing
• 1:01:39
  her thesis on horseboy method.
• 1:01:41
  So she filmed every session and during session three, halfway the
• 1:01:47
  girl was making a drawing and she turned it around and showed her dad.
• 1:01:53
  He said, okay, dad, look, that's you.
• 1:01:55
  And that is me.
• 1:01:57
  And that's mom.
• 1:01:57
  And that's my little brother and my colleague.
• 1:02:00
  And I, I remember so clearly I, she was Filming over my shoulder.
• 1:02:05
  I looked at her, she looked at me like, wow.
• 1:02:08
  She got it now.
• 1:02:09
  She, she now understands that, um, if you want to show something to somebody,
• 1:02:15
  you need to take, turn it around.
• 1:02:16
  But of course it's much bigger than that.
• 1:02:19
  Because mom told us that she could leave the room now and she could take the walkie
• 1:02:24
  talkie up to the attic and do some laundry while the kid was downstairs playing.
• 1:02:29
  And that was impossible.
• 1:02:32
  They went to the cinema.
• 1:02:33
  The girl just walked away from her, went to the big poster and start
• 1:02:37
  talking to another girl about the movie.
• 1:02:40
  She, yeah, it changed their whole world.
• 1:02:43
  Just that working on that one milestone yeah, was huge for that family.
• 1:02:50
  So, being a part of those changes for families, changes for the better,
• 1:02:56
  it's what makes it all worthwhile.
• 1:02:58
  You know, scooping poo in the mud and all of that.
• 1:03:02
  We know all about that.
• 1:03:03
  I do it happily.
• 1:03:04
  Swimming in poo.
• 1:03:05
  Yes.
• 1:03:05
  Rupert Isaacson: For those moments.
• 1:03:06
  In Germany at the moment.
• 1:03:08
  Yeah.
• 1:03:08
  What, what, there's a couple of things that, that stand out.
• 1:03:11
  So you, you, you casually mentioned that first day, Oh, we just, you know, long
• 1:03:15
  lined the horse up to the trampoline.
• 1:03:17
  And of course the kid must've been bouncing pretty hard on the trampoline.
• 1:03:20
  Mm hmm.
• 1:03:21
  And you, you casually got there with your horse and that means you
• 1:03:25
  must have done quite a lot of bomb proofing training with your horse.
• 1:03:27
  That, that's, that you must have done a lot of this.
• 1:03:32
  Carola Beekmann: Yes.
• 1:03:34
  So everything we think could happen during what we call play dates we train.
• 1:03:41
  And there was one time a volunteer surprised me and it bit me in the butt.
• 1:03:47
  As she pulled out a soap bubble thingy.
• 1:03:51
  And starting to blow soap bubbles, which my horse had never seen before.
• 1:03:56
  Luckily it was my daughter on the horse and not a client, but my horse spooked.
• 1:04:01
  So, that was another lesson.
• 1:04:04
  lIke, okay.
• 1:04:05
  If you have volunteers, make sure that they ask you before they do because
• 1:04:12
  you know, you need to have checked that your horse is okay with it.
• 1:04:14
  So, yeah, they need to be brave.
• 1:04:17
  And my mare is actually not the bravest but she is trained to be okay with
• 1:04:23
  a lot but, yeah for, in that case, I like the alpha horses the best for
• 1:04:29
  this work because they are brave and used to problem solving and they're
• 1:04:35
  usually okay with, with new things.
• 1:04:39
  So you show them and they're like, what's this?
• 1:04:42
  Oh, okay.
• 1:04:43
  So yeah, that's the kind of horse I prefer to work with.
• 1:04:46
  I have one here now, one out of four.
• 1:04:50
  hE's a superstar, but you know, with the others we work too, but you know, I always
• 1:04:54
  have to, um, be very aware that they you know, no horses, 100 percent bone proof.
• 1:05:03
  They don't exist, but you can get them to a very high level, but,
• 1:05:08
  um, it takes constant training.
• 1:05:11
  So I put.
• 1:05:12
  Weird objects in and around my arena or, or paddock like, tarpaulin
• 1:05:18
  that's just going everywhere.
• 1:05:22
  What, yeah, whatever I can figure.
• 1:05:25
  And I do like my leaf blowing of the arena, right where they
• 1:05:29
  standing next to it in the paddock.
• 1:05:31
  So they're all used to big noises and stuff.
• 1:05:37
  So Yeah, it takes
• 1:05:42
  Rupert Isaacson: sorry.
• 1:05:43
  And you keep that sort of going all the time.
• 1:05:45
  Do you have that sort of a constant?
• 1:05:46
  So they're always exposed to this sort of thing, the horses.
• 1:05:51
  Carola Beekmann: Yes.
• 1:05:52
  You know, I'm what, what I usually do is just, I, we do whatever we need to do.
• 1:05:59
  And we're not like, Oh, we can't do this because the horses are there without
• 1:06:03
  the clients, of course, you know, when the clients are not here, we just do
• 1:06:06
  the leaf blowing and mowing the lawn and driving around with a tractor
• 1:06:10
  and do whatever needs to be done.
• 1:06:13
  Because.
• 1:06:14
  You know, they're safe in there.
• 1:06:16
  And of course we keep our eye on them.
• 1:06:18
  And when they spook, we give them some time, but yeah, it's we, we
• 1:06:23
  treat them like, okay, this is normal.
• 1:06:27
  We, we are used to this.
• 1:06:29
  So, and every now and again, I introduce something new just to keep them flexible
• 1:06:34
  in their minds like, Oh, what's that?
• 1:06:36
  And, and you can tell, you know, one horse just looks at it and go
• 1:06:41
  sniffle and he's okay with it and the other one runs away as far as he can.
• 1:06:47
  And then a few days later, he goes to meet that new thing.
• 1:06:49
  So, yeah, but do you find that with bond
• 1:06:53
  Rupert Isaacson: proofing, you have to keep it going as a constant.
• 1:06:57
  I mean, that, that's definitely something we've found is that when it comes to
• 1:07:02
  keeping our horses bond proof, we, we can't assume because they met a red
• 1:07:07
  umbrella and were okay with it three months ago that they don't have amnesia
• 1:07:10
  about that three months afterwards.
• 1:07:16
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah, very true.
• 1:07:17
  And, and the, the one upside of me not having my pasture on my own terrain, but
• 1:07:23
  I have to walk down the street through the village is that they see traffic
• 1:07:28
  twice a day and, you know, it's tractors big trucks cyclists umbrellas, or when
• 1:07:36
  a new girl is born, there are pink flags at the end in the street or when there's
• 1:07:40
  carnival, you know, the garbage cans.
• 1:07:44
  So they see that every day and we never know what we see, you
• 1:07:48
  know, some things are always there and drive by as a surprise.
• 1:07:53
  So, that's kind of like for the big stuff, a constant.
• 1:07:57
  Yeah, right.
• 1:07:59
  I prefer to call it bravery training, by the way.
• 1:08:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:08:02
  Right.
• 1:08:02
  Absolutely.
• 1:08:03
  I, I, I think it's a great word.
• 1:08:06
  It's something which I think isn't talked about enough with bond proofing,
• 1:08:11
  bravery training, uh, desensitization.
• 1:08:14
  People have these different names for it is that often the, there's
• 1:08:17
  an assumption, do it once that's it.
• 1:08:19
  And of course, I found, and I guess you must have found over the years too,
• 1:08:23
  is that, no, actually, one needs to kind of do refreshes fairly regularly.
• 1:08:31
  Or the horses can decide, no, actually, I'm scared of that thing I wasn't
• 1:08:35
  scared of, you know, 10 minutes ago.
• 1:08:37
  Yeah, very true.
• 1:08:39
  But, you know, that kind of thoroughness of training, I think, is something
• 1:08:44
  unusual within the equine assisted world.
• 1:08:46
  I think that quite often I've seen people really working within sort of bubbles.
• 1:08:51
  And then of course, if something unforeseen happens, which inevitably
• 1:08:54
  it's going to at some point, and particularly if one's working, you know,
• 1:08:58
  an autistic population or somewhere, the, the client themselves is going
• 1:09:05
  to do something pretty unpredictable.
• 1:09:07
  That then the horse may or may not be ready for that.
• 1:09:11
  And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a wonderful thing that you've,
• 1:09:14
  you're covering those bases, you know, from the get go.
• 1:09:18
  There was something else which jumped out to me about that first story.
• 1:09:22
  So you said, you know, on that first day that he was in there,
• 1:09:25
  you had the horse available.
• 1:09:26
  There's the horse eating hay there in the arena.
• 1:09:28
  Okay, there's wool.
• 1:09:29
  So the kid can't run away from the arena, but he's running.
• 1:09:32
  When he wasn't going to interact with the horse that first
• 1:09:35
  day, what was your strategy?
• 1:09:37
  What did you do to get interaction with him, say, okay, well, if the horse
• 1:09:42
  isn't going to work, what, what, what other tricks have I got up my sleeve?
• 1:09:45
  What did you do to establish relationship?
• 1:09:50
  Carola Beekmann: Yes.
• 1:09:51
  Well, it started with the preparation.
• 1:09:53
  We didn't have an empty arena.
• 1:09:56
  So with the jumping poles and cones and traffic signs we
• 1:10:02
  made streets and junctions.
• 1:10:04
  So when he came in and he saw that play area, he was instantly in play.
• 1:10:11
  So all we had to do is shadow him and, and verbalize what he
• 1:10:16
  was doing and what he was seeing.
• 1:10:20
  So you set up the street
• 1:10:22
  Rupert Isaacson: in the arena before he went in?
• 1:10:27
  Yes,
• 1:10:28
  Carola Beekmann: exactly.
• 1:10:28
  So we, we tailor make the environment.
• 1:10:32
  as part of the, the preparation before the kids come.
• 1:10:36
  So when they come, they come in this place where they love to be.
• 1:10:42
  And it can be anything and everything.
• 1:10:44
  It depends on their interest.
• 1:10:47
  Rupert Isaacson: So do you find out from the family before they come
• 1:10:51
  out what the passionate interests or obsessive interests of the child are?
• 1:10:55
  Yes.
• 1:10:56
  Carola Beekmann: So yeah, we, we do an intake with the parents.
• 1:11:01
  So we have a very extensive chat with them where we make notes where we
• 1:11:08
  want to know anything and everything.
• 1:11:09
  Like what does he like?
• 1:11:11
  What does he what is he afraid of?
• 1:11:14
  Which sensory triggers are nice for him?
• 1:11:18
  Which one are not.
• 1:11:19
  And the main thing is of course, the two things is what are his
• 1:11:24
  interests and what are the goals?
• 1:11:25
  Because we always use like.
• 1:11:28
  The interest as a sort of wrapping paper around the goals.
• 1:11:33
  So the kids never know that they were working on goals.
• 1:11:36
  They just lay their favorite thing.
• 1:11:40
  And then in the meantime we, as adults work on the goals specific to that child.
• 1:11:45
  So yeah, the kids come to play and there are horses and you can sit or lie on
• 1:11:52
  top of horses and you can write them.
• 1:11:54
  But not necessarily, so a lot of it is also playing outside, having
• 1:12:00
  a, a safe and natural environment where the kids can explore and
• 1:12:06
  do whatever they like to do best.
• 1:12:08
  No,
• 1:12:09
  Rupert Isaacson: they're not going to interact with the horse.
• 1:12:11
  If they don't want to get on the horse, you have plenty of
• 1:12:13
  other stuff for them to do.
• 1:12:16
  Carola Beekmann: Yes.
• 1:12:17
  Yeah.
• 1:12:17
  We have swings, trampolines.
• 1:12:20
  We have a pond so they can fish they, you know, yeah all sorts of play equipment.
• 1:12:26
  So, yeah, they don't have to interact with the horses.
• 1:12:30
  They are available.
• 1:12:32
  But if they are into other stuff, then that's what we'll do.
• 1:12:36
  So I have like two brothers.
• 1:12:38
  They, they, they love to play soccer.
• 1:12:40
  So we start with that.
• 1:12:41
  And then I introduce a big yoga ball and then we play soccer with the horse.
• 1:12:45
  But if they're not into that, yeah.
• 1:12:47
  Okay.
• 1:12:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Again, that's, that's really unusual because you're talking
• 1:12:54
  about a level of training through the in hand work, the long reining, the
• 1:12:59
  lunging, as you've said, that the, the bond proofing or bravery training,
• 1:13:03
  as you call it That requires a bit of an obsessive, you know, horseman's
• 1:13:09
  approach and then you're willing to abandon the horse in a moment if
• 1:13:13
  that's not what the kid wants to do.
• 1:13:15
  And you've got other things to stimulate the learn.
• 1:13:20
  I think that they're remarkable because As you and I know, I mean,
• 1:13:26
  most of us who are in the horse world, I'm, I'm guilty as charged.
• 1:13:29
  With such horse obsessives, it's hard for us to necessarily move away from the horse
• 1:13:35
  if, if that's not where the person is.
• 1:13:37
  And to be able to put that kind of level of Detail into the preparation of
• 1:13:44
  the horse yet not be attached to them.
• 1:13:47
  Interacting with the horses is unusual.
• 1:13:49
  Do you find that it's easy to train your volunteers and your, your
• 1:13:54
  colleagues in this because they presumably also have to have the
• 1:13:57
  same approach to the horse training?
• 1:13:59
  Or do you find that this is something that you have to.
• 1:14:02
  teach horse people a skill really to, to not be so attached to the horse
• 1:14:08
  while at the same time being really attached to the paradoxically to
• 1:14:12
  the, to the preparation of the horse.
• 1:14:14
  Do you find this as a hard concept for people?
• 1:14:20
  Carola Beekmann: Well, part of when they start, I always introduce
• 1:14:25
  them to the eight guidelines of movement method and horseboy method.
• 1:14:29
  So, you know, as a main thing, follow the child.
• 1:14:34
  I always say it as soon as the child comes through the gates,
• 1:14:39
  they they do what they do.
• 1:14:43
  And, and we interact with them and we see what they're doing and we play with them.
• 1:14:50
  And you know, we, we try to set this up so they will engage in
• 1:14:56
  activities we have, um, thought of could help with their goals.
• 1:15:02
  But the kid is in charge and that for some is a very new concept because
• 1:15:11
  well, especially in the Netherlands, there are many rules and regulations
• 1:15:15
  and, well, school system generally around the world is, okay, teacher
• 1:15:21
  tells you what to do and you do it.
• 1:15:23
  Or at home, parents tells you what to do and you do it.
• 1:15:26
  And so to totally reverse that.
• 1:15:29
  But I find it that because you totally reverse it, uh, they get it.
• 1:15:36
  So we don't do something in between.
• 1:15:38
  We just say, okay, it's in charge and we follow.
• 1:15:42
  And I always get them to observe one or two sessions.
• 1:15:47
  And then I say, okay now you can be a more active part.
• 1:15:50
  And I always, always.
• 1:15:52
  As well, say when the kid starts to approach you, of course, you can interact.
• 1:15:56
  You can't stay there and say, okay, I'm only a blobservant today.
• 1:16:01
  So if they seek you out for interaction, you interact and I will
• 1:16:06
  be there and guide you through it.
• 1:16:09
  So yeah, to, to totally reverse that concept of being a leader.
• 1:16:17
  Normally, but now if that leadership to the child yeah, they usually get it
• 1:16:21
  and also because they, they see the joy and, and of the children and they see
• 1:16:29
  it working, you know, you see that it works, so you don't have to question it.
• 1:16:35
  Rupert Isaacson: And the involvement of parents and family and other other
• 1:16:40
  therapists is again, quite unusual.
• 1:16:43
  I mean, a lot of the places I've, I've gone to watching work is
• 1:16:47
  everything's kept very separate.
• 1:16:48
  When you're integrating like that obviously I can totally
• 1:16:50
  see why that would work so well.
• 1:16:53
  Do you ever find that it can be tricky?
• 1:16:55
  Like do you find sometimes that a parent might get pushy with the kid
• 1:17:00
  saying, Oh, you know, do what Mr.
• 1:17:01
  Corolla is saying, or.
• 1:17:03
  A therapist might, another therapist might say, no, no, that's wrong.
• 1:17:06
  We should do it my way.
• 1:17:07
  Or do you, do you find on the whole, actually people integrate really well?
• 1:17:11
  What, what's been your experience, positive and negative with that?
• 1:17:17
  Carola Beekmann: Well, the positive is because I, I explained the, the eight
• 1:17:22
  guidelines as well as to the parents, you know, also of course, the, the,
• 1:17:27
  the neuroscience behind what we do.
• 1:17:30
  But also the volunteers and the colleagues, and okay,
• 1:17:33
  this is how we work here.
• 1:17:35
  This is how we do it.
• 1:17:37
  And usually they, they, they just go with it.
• 1:17:41
  And there's one time, uh, I later found out that this was a dad with narcissism.
• 1:17:49
  I didn't know at the time.
• 1:17:51
  But he, he, despite me explaining the neuroscience and the eight guidelines.
• 1:17:57
  He just the first couple of times he went with it, and then he he decided
• 1:18:04
  that I was wrong and he was right.
• 1:18:07
  So yeah, that that family didn't no longer come because the boy
• 1:18:13
  also, you know, loyalty to dad.
• 1:18:15
  If that says it's not fun, we're not going anymore.
• 1:18:19
  But he turned out to have a narcissistic personality disorder.
• 1:18:24
  So that was the one time I was like, okay, I don't know if I would have
• 1:18:30
  more knowledge about narcissism if I could have avoided that situation.
• 1:18:34
  But his ex wife said he had XYZ therapists and he all went two or three times to
• 1:18:41
  that person and just went away again.
• 1:18:44
  So, I wasn't the only one.
• 1:18:47
  So that one still puzzles me a bit, like, okay, could I
• 1:18:52
  have handled that differently?
• 1:18:53
  But usually.
• 1:18:55
  It's they respond very positively to the approach we have.
• 1:19:01
  Rupert Isaacson: So here's another question.
• 1:19:02
  I know that the Netherlands is a little bit like the, like Germany where I am,
• 1:19:07
  where in some ways it's really good that you'll get, there's, there's, there's
• 1:19:13
  understanding from within government of, of the value of equine assisted work.
• 1:19:17
  But at the same time unless one goes through, you know, very, very set.
• 1:19:23
  Pathways, which then can end up being quite constraining to find the funding.
• 1:19:27
  How do you find the funding?
• 1:19:29
  Because you're very much pioneering, you know, This much more child led approach.
• 1:19:35
  How, how do you find the funding to make that happen within the Netherlands system?
• 1:19:41
  I think a lot of people would be quite, yeah, to know.
• 1:19:46
  Carola Beekmann: So in the Netherlands every municipal is responsible
• 1:19:52
  for the well being for everybody who lives in their community.
• 1:19:58
  So the funding is very decentralized.
• 1:20:02
  So it used to be through the, the national government.
• 1:20:05
  Now it's with the municipalities and well, they went through a learning
• 1:20:10
  curve and now decided that it's for them easier to only work with big contractors.
• 1:20:18
  So we speak mental health healthcare organizations.
• 1:20:22
  So, for people like me who are independent what we now have to do, so like before
• 1:20:30
  I could be like a main contractor for my municipal that changed now.
• 1:20:36
  So now I have to find a big organization to be a subcontractor with.
• 1:20:41
  So
• 1:20:41
  Rupert Isaacson: you have to partner up and subcontract.
• 1:20:43
  Okay.
• 1:20:43
  Carola Beekmann: Yes, exactly.
• 1:20:44
  And then every municipal has like a welfare team.
• 1:20:48
  So when there's a kid who has challenges the family can go to the,
• 1:20:54
  to the welfare team and they get a counselor and with the family and the
• 1:21:00
  counselor, they see which which kind of care, uh, guidance would be helpful.
• 1:21:08
  So the other thing is I need to get myself known with those welfare counselors.
• 1:21:14
  So they know that I exist.
• 1:21:17
  Because I'm a subcontractor.
• 1:21:18
  So I'm not like on the big list.
• 1:21:20
  So yeah, that takes some time for people to get to know you.
• 1:21:25
  And then when you have some successful clients who with very happy parents,
• 1:21:33
  happy clients and goals met then your name starts to get around.
• 1:21:38
  So it, it, it takes time to, to make yourself known.
• 1:21:43
  And the paperwork takes time and, and yeah, you really need to, to dig into it.
• 1:21:51
  Some choose to not work with the funding and say, I only take private clients so
• 1:21:59
  that, that the parents funded themselves.
• 1:22:02
  I do have some, but for me, I find it very important to keep collaborating
• 1:22:07
  with my local Municipals, because otherwise, the kids of the people who
• 1:22:13
  can't afford it, which are usually the kids who need it most I don't get to
• 1:22:17
  serve if I only do the private funding.
• 1:22:22
  So, For me I'm really really invested a lot and still investing
• 1:22:28
  a lot because I just moved to this place one and a half year ago.
• 1:22:32
  It's, uh, sort of besides my earlier area.
• 1:22:37
  So I need to invest in getting to know all the.
• 1:22:41
  local welfare counselors here to get my name out.
• 1:22:44
  So, yeah, it it takes a lot of tenacity, but for me, it's worth it
• 1:22:51
  and important to, to especially need, reach those kids that need it the most.
• 1:22:58
  So
• 1:23:00
  Rupert Isaacson: what you're talking about here is, is a sort of bureaucratic stuff
• 1:23:06
  you've got to do on top of running of the barn, the You know, looking after the
• 1:23:12
  horses, the training of the horses, the obviously the serving the clients that,
• 1:23:16
  you know, and you've, you've bootstrapped this up independently over a decade or so.
• 1:23:25
  What about burnout?
• 1:23:26
  I mean, this has been a lot of, a lot of work, a lot of responsibility.
• 1:23:33
  Have you experienced that?
• 1:23:35
  And if so, what have you done about it?
• 1:23:37
  Because I think this is something that faces a lot of people
• 1:23:40
  that are getting into it.
• 1:23:41
  Yes.
• 1:23:42
  Yeah.
• 1:23:43
  And what would your advice be?
• 1:23:44
  Carola Beekmann: Yes.
• 1:23:45
  So, yes, that happened.
• 1:23:48
  Christmas 2020, we drove home from my mum's and I just started to cry.
• 1:23:53
  And I had no idea why and I couldn't stop.
• 1:23:56
  sO after sometime I met with a psychiatrist and I had the very nasty
• 1:24:04
  combo of depression with burnout and which is tricky because for depression, they
• 1:24:11
  say, okay, go out, move, be in nature.
• 1:24:14
  But with burnout, if you do one step too many, you take three steps back.
• 1:24:18
  So to balance that out was a very tricky and long.
• 1:24:24
  Way to come back from and well, at first I definitely couldn't
• 1:24:32
  do without the medication.
• 1:24:34
  So, I started with that and they knocked me off my feet every time I
• 1:24:38
  had to go up my dosage, I, it took me a month to, to get regulated again.
• 1:24:45
  So that in itself was.
• 1:24:48
  A very yeah, hectic time and yeah, I slept and I slept and I slept and I was
• 1:24:57
  up for about a couple of hours a day.
• 1:25:00
  I drove to my horses usually crying to, went there, took
• 1:25:05
  care of them and drove back.
• 1:25:07
  I could hear one playlist.
• 1:25:11
  Music I couldn't, um, bear anything else.
• 1:25:17
  So, and you know, I, I ate some and I took care of my daughter and that was it.
• 1:25:23
  And the rest I slept.
• 1:25:25
  And so that was a dark time.
• 1:25:29
  How long did that, how long
• 1:25:29
  Rupert Isaacson: did that, that, that really extreme crisis time last Mm,
• 1:25:35
  Carola Beekmann: I would say about a half year before.
• 1:25:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:25:41
  In that time, you presumably had to put your therapeutic work on pause.
• 1:25:45
  Yes.
• 1:25:46
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
• 1:25:48
  Yeah.
• 1:25:48
  I couldn't work.
• 1:25:49
  So, luckily I'm a member of what we call in Dutch a Broodfonds,
• 1:25:54
  which translates to bread fund.
• 1:25:56
  It's a group of entrepreneurs who put money aside in a locked savings account.
• 1:26:04
  And when some, uh, anybody out of that group gets ill,
• 1:26:09
  we donate money to each other.
• 1:26:11
  That's interesting.
• 1:26:12
  Is that something,
• 1:26:13
  Rupert Isaacson: is that a tradition within the Netherlands?
• 1:26:15
  Carola Beekmann: It's, it's new ish but it's, it's it's way cheaper
• 1:26:20
  and better than your disability insurance, because especially in
• 1:26:24
  the horse business, I, I try to.
• 1:26:28
  insure myself and it would have cost me 800 euros a month.
• 1:26:34
  So because I work with horses, that's a high risk business.
• 1:26:39
  So, so through this broad phones you know, we, we help each other
• 1:26:43
  and we also have network meetings.
• 1:26:45
  So we, we know each other.
• 1:26:47
  So that makes it more like a, a tribe thing or a community thing.
• 1:26:53
  Like, okay, we take care of each other.
• 1:26:55
  It's not this big insurance company who gets to make a
• 1:26:59
  lot of money over our backs.
• 1:27:00
  And
• 1:27:01
  Rupert Isaacson: is there any sort of government or
• 1:27:03
  oversight over the Braapfond?
• 1:27:05
  I mean, are they, or is it just like, what's to stop somebody from running
• 1:27:09
  off with the money or like, how's that
• 1:27:11
  Carola Beekmann: organized?
• 1:27:11
  Yeah.
• 1:27:11
  Yeah.
• 1:27:11
  No.
• 1:27:12
  All the, you know, everybody has their own savings account, but they're locked.
• 1:27:17
  So I can't get money out of it.
• 1:27:19
  So I can put money into it every month.
• 1:27:22
  bUt only the secretary of the treasurer of our Broodfond can get
• 1:27:29
  money of, get, gets yeah, gives notice to, to the big organization.
• 1:27:36
  So like, okay, this person needs a donation and it's all, all in you know,
• 1:27:44
  you, when you make a lot of money, you donate more than when you make a little
• 1:27:48
  bit money, you donate a bit less and then or put less in your savings account.
• 1:27:54
  So it's all like balanced out, like, and
• 1:27:56
  Rupert Isaacson: was this a fund that already existed or was
• 1:27:58
  this something you put together
• 1:27:59
  Carola Beekmann: with, with the group?
• 1:28:00
  No, no, no.
• 1:28:01
  It's, it's an existing thing in the Netherlands.
• 1:28:04
  So
• 1:28:05
  Rupert Isaacson: who's to pay into?
• 1:28:07
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
• 1:28:08
  So you, you pay like a monthly fee or no.
• 1:28:13
  You pay yourself in your closed bank account.
• 1:28:17
  You pay yourself, but the, the treasurer can get money out of it to help.
• 1:28:22
  My
• 1:28:22
  Rupert Isaacson: colleagues got it and that, and so there's
• 1:28:24
  sort of legal oversight of
• 1:28:25
  Carola Beekmann: this.
• 1:28:26
  Yes.
• 1:28:27
  It's all with, with the taxes and everything that's all figured out.
• 1:28:31
  So it's all, how long has
• 1:28:33
  Rupert Isaacson: this been a thing in the Netherlands?
• 1:28:36
  Carola Beekmann: I don't know.
• 1:28:36
  I should have, I should look that up, but yeah, there are quite a
• 1:28:40
  Rupert Isaacson: girl or is it like 20 years or what do you think?
• 1:28:44
  Carola Beekmann: I heard about it.
• 1:28:46
  Just before I joined because I saw this thingy that there was a meeting for new
• 1:28:52
  members to to to tell us You know, what is this about and I was like, okay, I don't
• 1:28:58
  have an insurance yet Maybe this is a good
• 1:29:00
  Rupert Isaacson: idea used to you when you first heard about it.
• 1:29:04
  Yes.
• 1:29:04
  Okay.
• 1:29:05
  So maybe it's something relatively recent within
• 1:29:08
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah, I don't know, maybe five to ten years or
• 1:29:12
  so I'd have to look it up, but
• 1:29:13
  Rupert Isaacson: that's really, that's really interesting.
• 1:29:15
  I'd be actually, I just sort of want to do a bit of a heads up then
• 1:29:20
  to the, the listeners, listeners.
• 1:29:22
  Do you have, if you're listening from another country, is there
• 1:29:25
  anything similar to this?
• 1:29:27
  Because.
• 1:29:28
  I have not heard of this before.
• 1:29:29
  I can't, I don't think this exists within the UK.
• 1:29:33
  I certainly don't think this exists within the USA.
• 1:29:35
  I haven't heard of it in Germany.
• 1:29:36
  Maybe it's there.
• 1:29:37
  Tell us if it is, because this is, this is really useful information,
• 1:29:41
  I think, for people who are doing this sort of work that we're doing.
• 1:29:45
  Carola Beekmann: Absolutely.
• 1:29:47
  Yeah.
• 1:29:47
  So the, the broad phones, they, they kept me alive while I was sick.
• 1:29:52
  That that's the, the, the conclusion of this of this talk about the broad phones.
• 1:29:58
  They, because when I was sick, I, they, all the other members donated
• 1:30:04
  to me every month so I could, uh, keep eating and feeding my horses.
• 1:30:09
  And if.
• 1:30:10
  If that hadn't be, I had to sell them all and, uh, probably ended back up
• 1:30:17
  in, in the school somewhere again.
• 1:30:20
  So they, they really saved my butt.
• 1:30:22
  So,
• 1:30:25
  Rupert Isaacson: okay, so then by the time you ended up, you know, opening
• 1:30:29
  for business again when you felt that you had gone through some recovery, did
• 1:30:33
  you find that having spent some time effectively as a client, Um, rather than
• 1:30:40
  as a provider, a service user, rather than a service provider, if you like
• 1:30:44
  that, did that deepen and inform your practice, your equine assisted practice?
• 1:30:49
  Yeah.
• 1:30:50
  What wisdom did that bring?
• 1:30:52
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah, it, it, it makes you more aware of what
• 1:30:57
  families deal with go through.
• 1:31:00
  yoU know, I had the trauma for when I was young, but you know, I was over that.
• 1:31:05
  I dealt with it.
• 1:31:05
  So it, Kind of goes to the back of your mind.
• 1:31:08
  But going through this and also dealing with.
• 1:31:12
  thE doctors and the medicine and the psyche the psyche psychiatrist
• 1:31:19
  and that is yeah, obviously.
• 1:31:23
  And also the process of getting diagnosed, it turned out that one of the main
• 1:31:29
  reasons I got so burned out and depressed is I turned out to have ADHD which was
• 1:31:36
  undiagnosed You know, especially people, my age, that was a boy's thing, right?
• 1:31:43
  That girls have ADHD is well, not when I was young, that was not common knowledge.
• 1:31:49
  I don't even know if boys were.
• 1:31:52
  Diagnosed back then, or they was just busy and irresponsible
• 1:31:58
  and always up to something.
• 1:31:59
  So that really helped me heal because I now could figure out like
• 1:32:07
  admin work was like horror for me.
• 1:32:10
  I couldn't get anything done.
• 1:32:11
  You know, my mind went everywhere.
• 1:32:13
  I had my to do list and at the end of the morning I had done nothing
• 1:32:17
  or at least completed nothing.
• 1:32:19
  so That was one of the.
• 1:32:20
  Big frustrations and, and causes of my burnout.
• 1:32:24
  And there was Murphy's law, there was all kinds of stuff going on, but
• 1:32:28
  anyway, going through that again with the diagnosis process and dealing
• 1:32:34
  with the doctors and the medication.
• 1:32:37
  yeAh, it really gave me a deeper sense of like, okay.
• 1:32:42
  This is what these families have to deal with.
• 1:32:46
  And they usually don't come to me first, you know, they have usually tried
• 1:32:52
  anything and everything before they get tipped off that this also exists
• 1:32:57
  because it's not so well known yet.
• 1:33:00
  sO yeah, it it really has deepened my understanding.
• 1:33:04
  And also it, it urged me to seek other forms of healing for myself.
• 1:33:14
  So what so in the beginning I couldn't work with my horses, you
• 1:33:17
  know, from the medication I got so dizzy, so I couldn't lunge a horse.
• 1:33:21
  I couldn't sit on a horse, but as soon as I could I had to change perspective again.
• 1:33:26
  You know, I normally, I ride to train my horses and now my horses had to help.
• 1:33:32
  So I started to ride for me.
• 1:33:36
  And that was a new experience for me because I was always so
• 1:33:39
  focused on this horse needs this.
• 1:33:42
  So we're going to do this particular training today.
• 1:33:45
  And, but luckily because I did that, I had horses who could
• 1:33:49
  carry me and right for me.
• 1:33:53
  So, that was a big thing that helped me turn it around.
• 1:33:58
  And the other thing I met was a thing called TRE, that is tension
• 1:34:04
  or trauma releasing exercises.
• 1:34:08
  A lady I know she already told me about it, that she did
• 1:34:11
  that, my time wasn't there yet.
• 1:34:14
  But then I saw, okay, I think I want to try it because I got to a level
• 1:34:19
  like, okay, I can function again.
• 1:34:21
  But there was like this plateau, I couldn't get any further than that.
• 1:34:26
  And then I started the TRE sessions with her and that just, um, helped me so much.
• 1:34:34
  What it basically is, you do a couple of exercises to exhaust your muscle groups,
• 1:34:39
  and then you either stand against the wall or you lay down and you start to
• 1:34:43
  tremble and with that trembling trauma.
• 1:34:48
  Tramples out of yourselves.
• 1:34:50
  That's like the short of it.
• 1:34:52
  And
• 1:34:53
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:34:54
  Like when a hunted deer goes, gets the shakes off to getting exactly,
• 1:34:58
  Carola Beekmann: exactly like babies and animals.
• 1:35:00
  They do it themselves.
• 1:35:02
  Okay.
• 1:35:02
  We, as people have learned that that is weird behavior somewhere.
• 1:35:09
  So we stopped doing it.
• 1:35:11
  But it's, it's a natural thing.
• 1:35:13
  And when your body knows how to do it again without feeling
• 1:35:17
  awkward It's, it's very healing.
• 1:35:20
  So because trauma gets in all your cells, it's not just in your brain,
• 1:35:24
  it's, it's so for me, what first happened is all my old physical
• 1:35:29
  traumas, like my knee and my ankle and my calf, they all started to dissolve.
• 1:35:36
  You know, they, they were usually okay, but when you
• 1:35:38
  get really tired, you feel it.
• 1:35:40
  I I'm, I'm sure, you know, it's like you're, when you're really
• 1:35:43
  tired, like, oh yeah, that injury over there is now bugging me.
• 1:35:46
  That's gone.
• 1:35:47
  That was the first thing that happened.
• 1:35:48
  And then my, yeah, my mind just opened up.
• 1:35:53
  There was room for new space.
• 1:35:56
  I could read again.
• 1:35:57
  I could study again.
• 1:35:59
  That was all not possible.
• 1:36:00
  I couldn't do anything new before that.
• 1:36:03
  So, yeah, that was a big thing for me.
• 1:36:07
  And then the icing on the cake is after a five year search, we found this new home.
• 1:36:15
  with on a little plot.
• 1:36:16
  So it's a tiny little farm where I can finally have my, my
• 1:36:20
  horses and my practice at home.
• 1:36:22
  Yeah, that was the icing on the cake and my
• 1:36:25
  Rupert Isaacson: finally working out of another writing stable.
• 1:36:28
  Carola Beekmann: Yes, exactly.
• 1:36:31
  Which was cool for quite a while, but the, the longstanding wish is
• 1:36:38
  to just have my own place you know, because, you know, when you're
• 1:36:42
  in a writing stable, there are.
• 1:36:44
  Other people that ride there and you always have to compromise and, and
• 1:36:50
  do a lot of planning and here it's just, it's me, you know, I can do
• 1:36:55
  whatever, whenever, uh, and it takes a lot of work that comes with it.
• 1:37:03
  . But you know, I do it for ourselves.
• 1:37:05
  It's our own place.
• 1:37:06
  So, and I love to be outside and yeah.
• 1:37:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that, that, that's something definitely, which
• 1:37:12
  I've experienced both sides of, you know, for years and years.
• 1:37:14
  I had my own, we had our own place in Texas and then Mm-Hmm.
• 1:37:18
  to Germany, you know, young kids.
• 1:37:19
  So suddenly it's like, well, no, let's not immediately start another farm.
• 1:37:23
  Let's.
• 1:37:23
  Work out of a riding stable.
• 1:37:25
  And that was it.
• 1:37:26
  It worked.
• 1:37:27
  We learned how to dance that dance that you're talking about around other
• 1:37:32
  people whose attitudes and horses may not be quite as attuned to the needs
• 1:37:38
  of the clients as as as one might like.
• 1:37:42
  And now I'm back to having my own place again and can control the environment.
• 1:37:46
  And there's definitely.
• 1:37:48
  I'm very, very glad I went through that education process of no longer being
• 1:37:53
  complacent and being able to understand that when people are working out of
• 1:37:59
  riding stables, which a lot of people have to how much kudos to give them
• 1:38:03
  that they can get that work done, you know, dancing around other people.
• 1:38:07
  But yes, it's, it's definitely.
• 1:38:10
  So much nicer if one can have control.
• 1:38:13
  So now you, there you are, you've, you've, you've come through, you've
• 1:38:16
  built the thing, then you collapsed, then you built it up again, and here you are
• 1:38:22
  now, here you are, stronger than ever, with your own, operating out of your
• 1:38:26
  own place, doing this cutting edge work.
• 1:38:28
  I also know that you have recently, despite being a maverick and
• 1:38:33
  having gone outside of the regular.
• 1:38:37
  You know, therapeutic riding associations, systems, and so on, as
• 1:38:41
  many of us have and have made it work.
• 1:38:43
  You have now actually begun a collaboration with the Royal Dutch
• 1:38:48
  Horse Association, which would be the equivalent in the UK of the British Horse
• 1:38:52
  Society or, or Spot Island or the U.
• 1:38:55
  S.
• 1:38:55
  Equestrian Federation.
• 1:38:56
  You know, the, the, you've suddenly found yourself, interestingly,
• 1:39:02
  back with the mainstream.
• 1:39:03
  Can you tell us a bit about this collaboration?
• 1:39:06
  What is it?
• 1:39:07
  What's it doing and how, how'd you get
• 1:39:11
  Carola Beekmann: So what we has just have established recently, , is a
• 1:39:18
  new collaboration with our Royal Dutch Horse Association, , which
• 1:39:22
  for the Dutchies is KNHS.
• 1:39:25
  wE now have jumped through enough hoops to become part of the
• 1:39:31
  mandatory training, , for continuous professionalization, , for instructors.
• 1:39:38
  So in the Netherlands you become an instructor, but then you have to
• 1:39:43
  keep up your knowledge and skills.
• 1:39:47
  So, there is a select, , group no, not a group.
• 1:39:53
  It, well, there are select selected courses you can do to, to get points to,
• 1:40:00
  to keep your license as an instructor.
• 1:40:03
  And just last week we got the notification that we are approved for
• 1:40:09
  that program for horseboy method one.
• 1:40:12
  So, which means that now we can bring horseboy method one into the riding
• 1:40:21
  schools the general riding schools, of course, but especially the riding
• 1:40:25
  schools for special needs people.
• 1:40:27
  So the therapeutic riding center and what really for me has been a drive to do that
• 1:40:36
  is what we talked about earlier is that.
• 1:40:41
  Sometimes what we see in those riding centers, it's, it's the calm
• 1:40:45
  older horses that work there, but they, they, , have their issues.
• 1:40:51
  And that's why they're quiet.
• 1:40:53
  That can be, but what we also see is that the horses don't
• 1:40:59
  get better from that work.
• 1:41:00
  They get worse.
• 1:41:02
  So they get worn out at some point.
• 1:41:04
  So to reverse that, or at least help.
• 1:41:08
  To keep those horses in better shape or get them in better shape.
• 1:41:13
  I'm very passionate about bringing horseboy methods to those riding schools.
• 1:41:19
  So they can see a new way, another way, which doesn't take more time.
• 1:41:26
  But it is so much better for the welfare for the horse, but also because of the
• 1:41:33
  effect we talked about earlier, we'll get.
• 1:41:37
  More benefits for the writers.
• 1:41:40
  So, yeah, it's very exciting.
• 1:41:42
  We're going to start training in February at a therapeutic writing center.
• 1:41:49
  sO yeah, it's, I hope it's going to be a success and get the word
• 1:41:55
  out that there is another way.
• 1:41:59
  Which helps to, yeah, to have the horses happier and
• 1:42:05
  healthier and get better results.
• 1:42:08
  So, yeah, you, you have to be the maverick and then in the
• 1:42:13
  Netherlands also be willing to go back into mainstream and see.
• 1:42:18
  If you can on the edges of mainstream, make the mainstream a bit wider.
• 1:42:23
  So that's the next
• 1:42:26
  Rupert Isaacson: big project edging the mainstream's comfort
• 1:42:29
  zone a little further out.
• 1:42:31
  Exactly.
• 1:42:32
  Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
• 1:42:32
  Just nudging them out of their comfort zone.
• 1:42:35
  So yeah, I I'm very excited about that.
• 1:42:38
  Well that's
• 1:42:38
  Rupert Isaacson: a quite an achievement and quite an achievement to come
• 1:42:41
  back because you know, you, you said that the burnout, you know, which
• 1:42:44
  happened in 2020 You know, if that was taking sort of a year or so to, to.
• 1:42:52
  Carola Beekmann: No, closer
• 1:42:53
  Rupert Isaacson: to two years.
• 1:42:54
  Yeah.
• 1:42:54
  So really get back from it.
• 1:42:56
  Yeah.
• 1:42:56
  Yeah.
• 1:42:57
  I can imagine.
• 1:42:58
  I mean, most burnouts, it's at least a two year period.
• 1:43:01
  And then to, to, to surge back like this new farm, new place collaboration
• 1:43:06
  with the Royal Dutch Horse Society with their continuing education.
• 1:43:10
  That's, that's, you know, hats off to you Carola.
• 1:43:13
  That's really something.
• 1:43:15
  Yeah.
• 1:43:16
  We are coming out of towards wrap up time.
• 1:43:25
  Is there any way people can contact you?
• 1:43:28
  Whether for trainings, whether for inspiration, whether for advice,
• 1:43:31
  whether for obviously if they want to bring their children or
• 1:43:35
  young adults to you as clients.
• 1:43:37
  How do people contact you?
• 1:43:39
  Where do they find you?
• 1:43:41
  Carola Beekmann: Okay.
• 1:43:42
  There are several ways.
• 1:43:44
  Of course I have my own website, Corolla, BigMan nl I'm on Facebook.
• 1:43:48
  Can you spell that for us?
• 1:43:49
  It'sa.
• 1:43:49
  Rupert Isaacson: BigMan.
• 1:43:51
  How do you spell Corolla?
• 1:43:51
  BigMan nl.
• 1:43:53
  Oh,
• 1:43:54
  . Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
• 1:43:55
  C-A-R-O-L-A And then B-E-E-K-M-A-N nl.
• 1:44:07
  Okay.
• 1:44:08
  So The same for Facebook.
• 1:44:11
  I'm also on LinkedIn and we also have a Facebook page called
• 1:44:16
  horse boy, the Netherlands.
• 1:44:17
  I'm one of the admins there.
• 1:44:19
  So if you reach out to there you will get me directly or
• 1:44:22
  people will refer you to me.
• 1:44:25
  anD there is a brand new website, totally Dutch that's
• 1:44:30
  called movement method dot NL.
• 1:44:33
  We have been working on that with five, six colleagues for a while now, and it's.
• 1:44:40
  Not completely finished, but it's up.
• 1:44:42
  And so on the contact page, of course you can also reach me and that's
• 1:44:47
  info at movement method dot NL.
• 1:44:51
  So yeah, that's how people can find me.
• 1:44:54
  And of course, through the NTLS.
• 1:44:56
  co website, I'm on the providers page and also on the trainers page.
• 1:45:04
  Can I give you a little?
• 1:45:05
  Rupert Isaacson: So, I just want to, I want to do a little big ups
• 1:45:07
  for the, for the, for the listeners.
• 1:45:09
  In terms of not just the work with the with, with special needs, which
• 1:45:13
  I know you're extremely good at.
• 1:45:15
  You're also very, very good producer of horses in your own right.
• 1:45:18
  And Carola has been very modest in the course of this
• 1:45:22
  interview listeners, but she's.
• 1:45:24
  She, she, she mentioned very briefly some of the international work she's done.
• 1:45:28
  But one thing I can say is that I know relatively few people who can
• 1:45:33
  really rehab and muscle horses to the extent that I have seen Carola do it.
• 1:45:39
  Carola, I've seen you take a number of horses, which were absolutely
• 1:45:43
  messed up in the back and in the hocks and in the stifles and turn them.
• 1:45:48
  Around into meta horses, and a lot of people who know the work that I do with
• 1:45:54
  horses know that, for example, with my lunging work, I am a absolute flag
• 1:45:59
  flying user of side reins, etc, etc.
• 1:46:02
  And so, of course, there's always this.
• 1:46:04
  controversy between should you use side reins or should you not?
• 1:46:06
  But I can absolutely say that Corolla is one of the few people I've seen who,
• 1:46:10
  without the use of the side reins, can absolutely, absolutely, miraculously
• 1:46:15
  turn a horse around in, in terms of its muscling and in the, in the lunging.
• 1:46:20
  The reason I'm saying all this is that if you're, if you're looking for
• 1:46:24
  help, advice, training, don't just go through the, it's not confined to the
• 1:46:30
  equine assisted work that she does.
• 1:46:32
  I really would wholeheartedly recommend Corolla because she's
• 1:46:35
  not going to say it herself.
• 1:46:37
  So I'm bigging her up now.
• 1:46:38
  I would really wholeheartedly recommend you, Corolla, if someone's got a horse
• 1:46:42
  that needs, um, training or rehabbing.
• 1:46:47
  Whether or not.
• 1:46:48
  You're in the Netherlands because I know that you can do this.
• 1:46:51
  She also hasn't said this cause she's too modest.
• 1:46:53
  I know that she can do this long distance through WhatsApp
• 1:46:56
  and online training programs.
• 1:46:58
  So, give us your, give us your website again, Carola.
• 1:47:01
  Carola
• 1:47:03
  Carola Beekmann: Beekman dot com.
• 1:47:05
  Okay.
• 1:47:06
  Very Carola.
• 1:47:06
  So in, if for English you just call, you just spell Beekman, then you get it right.
• 1:47:11
  And
• 1:47:12
  Rupert Isaacson: it's, and it's all, it's all little letters, right?
• 1:47:14
  Carola Beekman.
• 1:47:15
  com.
• 1:47:15
  Yes.
• 1:47:16
  Carola Beekmann: Yes.
• 1:47:16
  And there is an English section on my Dutch website.
• 1:47:20
  So, for all the horse training stuff.
• 1:47:22
  So.
• 1:47:24
  Rupert Isaacson: So do reach out to her people, because she,
• 1:47:26
  she, she does know her stuff.
• 1:47:27
  And I have watched a number of horses that were...
• 1:47:33
  Not, I would say the most obvious contenders turn under Carola's tutelage
• 1:47:39
  into, like I said, meta horses, including that black and white spotted
• 1:47:43
  mare, which she referred to, which was probably one of the weakest backed horses
• 1:47:48
  I've ever seen when you first got it.
• 1:47:50
  And the way you turned that horse around was frankly, you know, astonishing.
• 1:47:55
  So hats off to you.
• 1:47:58
  Thank you.
• 1:47:59
  Pleasure.
• 1:47:59
  All right.
• 1:48:00
  Any last words before we, before we sign
• 1:48:03
  Carola Beekmann: off?
• 1:48:05
  No, just thank you for having me.
• 1:48:07
  And yeah, please reach out if you, uh, want help or advice or coaching.
• 1:48:13
  I'm, I'm very eager and happy to share all the knowledge.
• 1:48:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you for coming on, on the show.
• 1:48:21
  We're going to head out now and get horses in from the field in the
• 1:48:24
  rain and take them back to, I'm sure you're going to do the same thing
• 1:48:28
  cause it's raining like crazy here in Northern Europe at the moment
• 1:48:31
  and has been for the last six weeks.
• 1:48:33
  I'm sure some of the listeners will know exactly what we're talking about.
• 1:48:36
  And we look forward to just keeping tabs on your work and
• 1:48:41
  seeing how you develop further.
• 1:48:43
  Yeah.
• 1:48:44
  Carola Beekmann: Okay.
• 1:48:45
  Thank you so much for having me and it was a pleasure to chat.
• 1:48:49
  Likewise.
• 1:48:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:48:50
  Speak soon.
• 1:48:52
  Speak soon.
• 1:48:53
  thank you for joining us.
• 1:48:54
  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
• 1:48:56
  Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online
• 1:49:01
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• 1:49:07
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• 1:49:11
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• 1:49:14
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• 1:49:21
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• 1:49:25
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• 1:49:28
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• 1:49:32
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• 1:49:34
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