Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Is This a Break… or a Breakup? What It Really Means When Your Partner Needs Space | Love | E563

Transcript

Is This a Break… or a Breakup? What It Really Means When Your Partner Needs Space | Love | E563 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 1: on with the show.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: You're in a conversation and you're starting to get really
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  Speaker 2: activated and you need a little space to emotionally regulate.
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  Speaker 2: Call a timeout. and then just say hey right now
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  Speaker 2: this is too much for me then take space.
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  Speaker 1: So what does it mean if your partner is telling
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  Speaker 1: you that they need space this could be really scary
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  Speaker 1: to hear especially if you tend to be a little
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  Speaker 1: anxious in relationships right it can feel some ways like
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  Speaker 1: they're withdrawing.
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  Speaker 2: If that creates anxiety in you then it's going to
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  Speaker 2: feel like what did i do wrong Why is it
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  Speaker 2: that you need this when it sometimes isn't about that,
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  Speaker 2: that how the partner who needs space communicates it to
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  Speaker 2: the partner who's receiving the message really matters.
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  Speaker 1: It can actually mean a lot of different things and
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  Speaker 1: actually to have a lot of different opportunities to strengthen
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  Speaker 1: your relationship in this moment and As opposed to making
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  Speaker 1: it worse, which can also happen if you're not handling
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  Speaker 1: this with intention. So on today's episode of Love, Happiness,
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  Speaker 1: and Success, we are talking with an expert marriage counselor
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  Speaker 1: to help us all decode what it means when your
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  Speaker 1: partner needs some space and how to navigate these moments
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  Speaker 1: with a lot of confidence and clarity in order to
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  Speaker 1: support your connection. If this is your first time tuning in, hello,
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  Speaker 1: I'm Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. This is Love, Happiness, and Success.
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  Speaker 1: And we are here every single week to talk about
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  Speaker 1: your relationships, your life, your well-being, your career trajectory. And
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  Speaker 1: every single topic is designed to teach you something and
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  Speaker 1: leave you with some actionable takeaways that you can apply
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  Speaker 1: to your life today. And that is definitely what we're
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  Speaker 1: going to be Getting out of today's podcast, we're talking
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  Speaker 1: today with my friend and colleague, Jennifer Cunningham, who like
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  Speaker 1: me is a marriage and family therapist who specializes in relationships, communications,
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  Speaker 1: matters of the heart, and also who like me is
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  Speaker 1: a board certified coach, which means that she's looking at
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  Speaker 1: not just understandings, but actually implementing the changes that will
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  Speaker 1: change your outcomes. And Jennifer, we have a lot to
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  Speaker 1: talk about.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, we do. When it comes to moving space, I
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  Speaker 2: get all the time with my couples in different forms
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  Speaker 2: and different ways. So I look forward to diving in.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here and sharing your
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  Speaker 1: expertise because you are truly an expert. I mean, you
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  Speaker 1: are boots on the ground. Clinician slash coach doing this
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  Speaker 1: day in, day out. And so let's just take this
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  Speaker 1: from the top, if it's okay. When people say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: my partner is needing space, it feels like withdrawing a
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  Speaker 1: little bit. What does that mean in terms of the experience? Like,
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  Speaker 1: what are people hearing? What are they seeing that leads
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  Speaker 1: them to believe their partner is needing to take a
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  Speaker 1: few steps back?
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's so many things that could be going on,
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  Speaker 2: both with the partner asking for the space and the
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  Speaker 2: partner who's receiving that message. With a partner who needs space,
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  Speaker 2: it may be that they're trying to figure out what
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  Speaker 2: are the best steps forward. You keep running into the
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  Speaker 2: same problems. I don't know how to handle this anymore.
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  Speaker 2: And so taking steps back may give them an opportunity
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  Speaker 2: to think through and gain clarity. And so they're asking
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  Speaker 2: for the opportunities for that. For the partner receiving it,
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  Speaker 2: it can feel like rejection. It can feel like separation, disconnection,
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  Speaker 2: so many different pieces as they're trying to figure out
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  Speaker 2: Because sometimes we don't have the words to express how
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  Speaker 2: we're feeling or where we're at because of all things
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  Speaker 2: in school, they never teach us how to do these things.
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  Speaker 2: And so sometimes we lose our words. And so sometimes
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  Speaker 2: the other partner needs time to process and figure out
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  Speaker 2: what their words are. And that can make you feeling
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  Speaker 2: very alone and vulnerable. And in relationships, you want to
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  Speaker 2: know that the other person has your back. And asking
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  Speaker 2: for space feels like possibly to them, but they don't.
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  Speaker 2: They're being rejected. And it can lead to that when
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  Speaker 2: you talk about attachment styles can make you feel very
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  Speaker 2: anxious when you may have felt more secure in the relationship,
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  Speaker 2: which there can be shifting attachment styles as you are
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  Speaker 2: in a relationship in different seasons of the relationship to
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  Speaker 2: and where you're at and where you might go to today,
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  Speaker 2: but necessarily in the side there, but.
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  Speaker 1: But it's so relevant, right? Like what we're bringing to
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  Speaker 1: the table in terms of our attachment styles impact what
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  Speaker 1: we need in the moments of communication when things do
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  Speaker 1: start to feel tense or hard and to have some
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  Speaker 1: people who might need to take a little bit of
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  Speaker 1: space in order to organize themselves, get to a better place,
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  Speaker 1: like that's part of how they cope. But that can
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  Speaker 1: create a lot of anxiety or like negative reactions in
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  Speaker 1: a person who is really wanting to talk it out
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  Speaker 1: or solve problems in that moment that are related to
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  Speaker 1: historical attachment styles. But even though this dynamic can fluctuate,
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  Speaker 1: like if you are with somebody who maybe wants more
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  Speaker 1: space than you do, it can activate anxiety that might
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  Speaker 1: not be there in the relationships because of the dynamic.
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  Speaker 1: So like, this is very multidimensional.
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  Speaker 2: It's so complex because it can wake up things within
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  Speaker 2: us that we don't know are there, which is where
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  Speaker 2: we have so much stored in our minds. And we
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  Speaker 2: have a vision of what our relationships should look like
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  Speaker 2: and how they should be conducted, how we should move forward,
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  Speaker 2: what connection means, what distance means, and why people would
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  Speaker 2: bring it up. Because we also have the influence of
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  Speaker 2: social media today saying if people want distance, then they're
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  Speaker 2: out of there. There's other things happening. So we're all
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  Speaker 2: these other voices that are coming into you. into that
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  Speaker 2: can add or to our anxiety or create more separation
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  Speaker 2: or distance in the relationship as well.
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  Speaker 1: So what you're saying is that like there's one layer,
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  Speaker 1: which is the communication that's happening between two people, but
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  Speaker 1: that the way we interpret what is happening in those
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  Speaker 1: moments can be influenced by things we're connected to that
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  Speaker 1: are almost like interpreting it for us that can lead
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  Speaker 1: us maybe to feel more threatened or anxious compared to
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  Speaker 1: if we got more curious about our own experience, what
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  Speaker 1: was going on with our partner.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I say a lot of times, one of the
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  Speaker 2: things that I talk about with my clients is learning
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  Speaker 2: to not take things personally. So when it feels like
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  Speaker 2: a personal attack, we respond differently. We have a perception
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  Speaker 2: of when things feel very personal and how we work
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  Speaker 2: through it. And so if that creates anxiety in you,
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  Speaker 2: then it's going to feel like, what did I do wrong?
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  Speaker 2: Why is it that you need this when it sometimes
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  Speaker 2: isn't about that? But how the partner who needs space
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  Speaker 2: communicates it to the partner who's receiving the message really
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  Speaker 2: matters because if it's just like hey i need space
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  Speaker 2: then they walk out the door what are you supposed
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  Speaker 2: to do with it because when i think about like
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  Speaker 2: needing space sometimes you need space in a conversation and
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  Speaker 2: i talk about that right quite often because i talk
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  Speaker 2: about this in the way of processing and that each
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  Speaker 2: of them process differently and sometimes talking about things depending
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  Speaker 2: on who you are, your personality type, like all sorts
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  Speaker 2: of different variables come into it. You may need space
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  Speaker 2: to be able to process the information being presented to
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  Speaker 2: you versus being able to just process it there in
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  Speaker 2: that moment. And so the needing a space may be
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  Speaker 2: just a task for the ability to process it differently
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  Speaker 2: versus processing it out loud with one another. And I found,
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  Speaker 2: I find a lot that the couples that are together,
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  Speaker 2: one processes out loud and the other one often processes
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  Speaker 2: internally or needs space to process as well. And so
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  Speaker 2: sometimes that need for space is what keeps the conversation
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  Speaker 2: that they're trying to have from turning into an argument
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  Speaker 2: or something that's not, doesn't feel solvable or resolvable. And
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  Speaker 2: it keeps you from getting too heightened in it. There
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  Speaker 2: are so many different facets to why somebody would ask
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  Speaker 2: or need space.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so major. headline takeaway, I mean, just the first one,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be many more, is that to
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  Speaker 1: not personalize what is happening right now and immediately jump to, oh,
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  Speaker 1: I'm not loved, they don't care about me, this relationship
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  Speaker 1: is not important to them, blah, blah, blah, because we
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  Speaker 1: can spiral, right, and go there. Because Because if we
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  Speaker 1: do that, you know, then we get escalated. What you're
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  Speaker 1: saying is that there are a lot of functional and
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  Speaker 1: healthy reasons why someone might know themselves well enough to say,
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  Speaker 1: let's slow down. Let's pause. I need some time and
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  Speaker 1: space to process that go into processing styles, differences in
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  Speaker 1: the way we communicate internal versus external. I think even
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  Speaker 1: like a protective instinct to say, if we keep, you know,
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  Speaker 1: this train keeps going down these tracks, it's going to
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  Speaker 1: get messy. And so let's just all pause. Everybody calm down.
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  Speaker 1: And then we will continue on having a more constructive conversation.
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  Speaker 1: But if we personalize, spin out, we're not allowing this healthy,
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  Speaker 1: functional stuff to happen.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. And so many times when it's not said in
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  Speaker 2: a healthy way, which is often how it is, is
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  Speaker 2: it leaves the other person feeling abandoned. So we're in
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  Speaker 2: the middle of a conversation. I'm feeling really emotionally activated.
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  Speaker 2: And I notice I can't stay in the conversation. I'm
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  Speaker 2: just thinking about that next thing I need to say.
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  Speaker 2: And then I need to go away to calm down,
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  Speaker 2: to emotionally regulate. Because that can be another reason why
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  Speaker 2: you might need some space. But if I just walk away,
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  Speaker 2: what does that leave your partner with? It leaves them
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  Speaker 2: with feeling, oh, what we're saying is not important. What
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  Speaker 2: we're doing is a... they don't know when you're coming
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  Speaker 2: back or anything else. So one of the key things
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  Speaker 2: that I hope that people can take away from today
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  Speaker 2: is this. If you're in a conversation and you're starting
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  Speaker 2: to get really activated and you need a little space
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  Speaker 2: to emotionally regulate is first, just call a timeout. You
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  Speaker 2: can say verbally, let's have a timeout. You can give
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  Speaker 2: a hand signal to do a timeout and then just say, hey,
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  Speaker 2: right now, this is too much for me. And I
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  Speaker 2: need 20 minutes because it takes at least 20 minutes
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  Speaker 2: to emotionally regulate. Then take space. And then come back
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  Speaker 2: when you say you're going to come back. So if
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  Speaker 2: you say you're going to take 20 minutes, don't be
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  Speaker 2: gone for 30 minutes, 40 minutes, 50 minutes. That erodes
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  Speaker 2: the trust between you. But if you come back in
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  Speaker 2: 20 minutes, you know what? You might still be activated.
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  Speaker 2: But then together, you can decide, do we continue with
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  Speaker 2: this conversation now? Or do we put it on the
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  Speaker 2: back burner for tonight and we come back to it
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  Speaker 2: tomorrow or the next day? And you see just those
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  Speaker 2: two extra things. One, visually saying I need a timeout.
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  Speaker 2: And saying how long. And I guess three. Following through
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  Speaker 2: as well really does make a difference in building that
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  Speaker 2: trust and taking away sort of that fear of abandonment.
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  Speaker 2: If you follow through and you do those things, then
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  Speaker 2: I know I can trust you. Sometimes you're not going
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  Speaker 2: to be able to stay in all the conversations, but
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  Speaker 2: I know I can have those hard conversations when and
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  Speaker 2: if they need to happen.
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  Speaker 1: Jennifer, I have to tell you something. I'm really hearing
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  Speaker 1: the different layers of what you do. Like this is
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  Speaker 1: so informed by so much depth. about processing and emotions
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  Speaker 1: and like the attachment pieces. But you're also really like
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  Speaker 1: talking like a coach in a lot of ways. You're like, okay,
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  Speaker 1: here's what to do. But like teaching the series of
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  Speaker 1: skills that are not necessarily instinctive. And what you're saying is,
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  Speaker 1: if you are the person who might need some more
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  Speaker 1: space in a relationship from time to time, it's really
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  Speaker 1: important that you know how to handle those moments effectively.
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  Speaker 1: Because if you operate in a way that is not
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  Speaker 1: like emotionally sensitive in those moments, or if you don't
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  Speaker 1: have enough self-awareness inside of yourself to even know what's
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  Speaker 1: going on, much less be able to articulate it, that
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  Speaker 1: also is going to be really damaging. And so like,
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  Speaker 1: There are a lot of skills on both sides of
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  Speaker 1: this equation that need to be learned, probably even overtly
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  Speaker 1: talked about. Like, is that a lot of what you're
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: doing with your couples in this type of communication coaching,
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  Speaker 1: would you say?
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  Speaker 2: Helping them to see who they are in their relationship
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  Speaker 2: as well as their partner and helping them through the
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: problems as the problem. versus the people being the problem. Ooh. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Well, no, because honestly, I mean, in distressed relationships, that
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  Speaker 1: is where we go, right? We're not seeing the problem.
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  Speaker 1: You are the problem.
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  Speaker 2: And when you are able to take some account for
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  Speaker 2: your part in it too, it really changes dynamics of
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  Speaker 2: how you're able to communicate through things because no one
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  Speaker 2: wants to be labeled as the bad one, the evil one,
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  Speaker 2: the one who's causing all the problems because What I
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  Speaker 2: know about truth is you have a truth. I have
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  Speaker 2: a truth and the truth actually lies somewhere in the middle.
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  Speaker 2: And so when it comes to couples work, I find
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  Speaker 2: a lot of times, particularly with the men, they're really
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  Speaker 2: scared that I'm going to take one side or the other.
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  Speaker 2: And when it comes to couples work, it isn't about
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: taking sides. It's about helping you hear one another. And
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: one of the things that I work with and we
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: work a lot in is how do you hear one
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  Speaker 2: another and how do you take accountability for your part
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  Speaker 2: and doing something different we can know there's a problem
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: and you can talk about it all day long we
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: can keep talking about the same problem but if you're
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: not taking actions or small steps i always say small
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  Speaker 2: steps not weeks with my clients we're not expecting you
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  Speaker 2: to change it overnight And so it's really important to
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: remember that the problem is the problem. That both of
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: you have your own perspective and perspectives are created over time.
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  Speaker 2: We were talking about perspective a little earlier and it
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  Speaker 2: made me always remember that talk thinking about the God verse.
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  Speaker 2: And they talk about.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: John and Julie Gottman, marriage and family researchers. Yes. Just
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: for our friends who may not yet be familiar because
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. For the civilians.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. But with the Gottmans and their research lab really
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: talked about a thing called negative sentiment override.
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  Speaker 1: Unpack that. What does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: So what that really means is that sometimes we put
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: on glasses with our partners and the glasses themselves have
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: lenses that are distorted and the distorted.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Crap colored glasses instead of rose colored glasses.
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  Speaker 2: And you start to think that every action, everything they do,
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  Speaker 2: is negative. It's against you. They don't care about you.
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  Speaker 2: And you start looking for that evidence. And as you look... Well,
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  Speaker 2: and that.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Comes from having experiences that are hurtful, that don't feel good,
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  Speaker 1: and that over time influences what you expect and how
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  Speaker 1: you think.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. And as they look for it, that's all
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: they find, where the partner might be moving forward and
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: doing something differently. or that they heard your request and
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: they're trying to meet you where you're at or different
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: things and still you would you could see them as
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: just continuing to be everything is negative nothing is working
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: here what are we doing here versus a positive perspective
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: because they talk about the Gottmans talk about in a
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: sound relationship house how important it is to have a
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: positive perspective towards your partner and I know I'm not
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: saying that for all Relationships are all relationships are at
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: that point, but how it does erode the communication over
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: time when we're looking for....
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  Speaker 1: A positive view of your partner, meaning positive expectations. We
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: think well of them. We give them the benefit of
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: the doubt. Those are characteristics of healthy relationships that work well.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: And so like part of what we do and I
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: know you do is sort of assessing a couple as
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: they come in the door, like where are you on
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: that metric? And then working with them to develop it.
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  Speaker 1: And I just want to say that out loud because
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: for somebody hearing that and be like, oh my God,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: we do not have that right now, which is so normal.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: or a context of a distressed relationship, that's one of
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: the things that does get damaged, is that's part of
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: what we need to rebuild in order to have better communication,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: in order for people to feel more connected. And so
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  Speaker 1: it's not like an all or nothing thing. And I
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  Speaker 1: just wanted to say that out loud. But I really
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  Speaker 1: appreciate that, Jennifer, that there's a dimension of negative sentiment
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  Speaker 1: override versus those positive expectations and whatever's higher is going
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  Speaker 1: to impact your communication, but also that ability to stay
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: in the ring. And that could be one of the
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: factors that contributes to people feeling like they need some
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: space versus it's safer to stay close. Is that what
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: you're saying?
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  Speaker 2: That is what I'm saying, because I think it really
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  Speaker 2: influences that perspective of what's happening when the partner asks
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  Speaker 2: for space. Because it's how you're viewing them, the relationship,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: the history, and all those pieces tie into that very
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: moment that the one partner is asking for space. It
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: is important to remember that different seasons in a relationship,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: you're going to have different ways you view the relationship
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: and where it's at. But perspective really does give meaning
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  Speaker 2: to something that doesn't have meaning yet. And meaning of
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  Speaker 2: I need space can be perceived as a threat. or
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  Speaker 2: invoke different fears. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we need to talk more about that too, because
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: kind of planted a flag on that. You mentioned this
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: earlier and I was like, oh, we need to talk
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: about this is like when it comes to relationships and
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: this is deeply distressing to many people. So I'm sorry
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: if I like I'm making anybody feel tense when I
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: say this out loud, but when it comes to relationships,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: there is no such thing as objective reality. Like it
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: is not a math problem. It is multidimensional and particularly
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: in a complex situation like a relationship, many different things
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: can all be true at the same time. And these
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: different things can sometimes almost seem like they're in opposition.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: And so that's one of the reasons why people can't
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: get into conflict is because they are choosing to be
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: the champion of one facet of the truth, whereas there
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: is also another facet of the truth. Both things are
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: true and now people are fighting about it. And so
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: what I think, too, that this is such an important
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: dimension of communication, we should probably unpack this and talk
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: about how to manage that on the other side of
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: this break. Is that okay with you?
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: That sounds great.
• 21:39
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  Speaker 1: Jennifer Cunningham, who's a marriage and family therapist, board certified coach,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: and true communication and relationship expert who is unpacking a
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: lot of different facets of communication, where things can go sideways,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and how to stay connected through these, especially one of
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: the scariest things when it seems like your partner is
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: backing up and saying that they want some more space.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: So Jennifer, just before the break, we were talking about
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: this really important thing, which is that a big piece
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: of understanding communication and relationships is understanding the fact that
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: there are many different facets of reality that are all
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: true all at the same time. And that it's very
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: easy for people to get into conflict when they are
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: focusing on the part of that that feels most meaningful
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: to them. And when their partner is perhaps focusing on
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: a different aspect of reality, but nobody's necessarily wrong. Can
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you give us an example of like what this commonly
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: looks like? I mean, I know you work with so
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: many people in marriage counseling, relationship coaching. What are some
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: of the usual suspects?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Some of the usual suspects is when it comes to
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: conflict is that I have a quite a few couples
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: who argue over finances.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: One will say, hey, we should stay within budget and
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: let's continue on this pathway. And the other one will go, yes,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: but I would also like to go on vacation and
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: let's do this because I really love that social aspect.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: It's what makes me feel really connected. And they're at
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: these two opposing sides viewpoints because one wants to protect
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: the budget and where their money is and the other
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: wants to be able to spend some of the money
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: that they have and be able to enjoy it and
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: not just pay the bills and so both things can
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: be true they need to be budget friendly and that
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: they need some time away yeah I think that's an
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: easy example of where I can.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's so common. And it's that nobody's necessarily wrong,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: but it is what are you almost valuing or prioritizing
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: where one person is saying, yes, but with this budget,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: we will be able to save X amount of money
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: a month. And the other person is saying, and what
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: is the point of my life if we can't have
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: fun once in a while? Yeah. And like having to
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: find a middle path there. But when people get polarized,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: that can be one of, you know, people just start
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to get so activated. And that's when they're like, I
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: can't talk to you about this anymore because it's.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And that same financial discussion is you were trying to
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: control me and everything I do with the one who
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: wants to go on vacation. And the other one is
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: you never accept my influence on anything. And it's, I'm
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: always the bad guy here. And why can't we work together?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Both of them can feel so polarized on opposite sides
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: of why can't we just come together? Right.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And, but there's this like a character stuff, right? Like
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: this narrative around, you're a bad person. You're trying to
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: control me. Or, and it becomes emotional. It becomes personalized.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Going back to your point, like we need to solve
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: the problem, not actually turn this into a, accusing each other,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: bring a lot of negativity into the situation.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: And that's where I find coaching really cool is how
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: we really dive into what do you both value? What
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: are the things that you're moving towards? What is it
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: that you actually want? Then you can have a very
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: different discussion on this particular subject on finances. Because once
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: you sort of understand where you're both coming from and
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: where you're going, then you can find that common ground
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: when you're You start to plant your own flags at
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: different ends of the field. You're not really finding that
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: common ground. I'm right and I'm right. And there's not
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: that in between that can occur when there's not a
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: common denominator, so to speak. And going back.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: To that part of when your partner is asking for space, Yeah,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: I think that maybe there's one level of this. It's
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: like that emotional activation piece. But I'm also wondering, is
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: there another layer of this? If because it feels like
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: it's just gridlock over and over again, and the communication
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: isn't going anywhere, if that can lead somebody to start
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: to believe it doesn't matter what I say, I'm just
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: this person is trying to control me or like fight
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: with me to badger me to get me to like
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: bend towards their way of perceiving it. And it's almost
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: like a self-protective thing. Like I don't want to keep
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: putting myself in the situation when there's no space for
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: me and my perspective here. Is that another reason why
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: somebody can say, start to feel like they're withdrawing? Like
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: maybe it's not even said out loud, but it feels
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: like they're getting more checked out.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: I think that happens in all the small things. And
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: that people do get to that point of, I don't
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: know how to discuss this with you. I don't know
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: how to work this out with you. I feel like
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: we just keep repeating things over and over again. Why
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: am I doing this? Where do we go from here?
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Because I don't want to keep living like I am
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: right now. And sometimes they feel that having the space
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: will create some clarity for them of, is this the
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: relationship I want? Do I want to continue moving forward?
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: So maybe, even that oh like going into like do
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: I even want to do this well okay so let's
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: talk about that part as well what I was actually
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: thinking of kind of like going into the relational dynamic stuff.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Okay so going back to like the Gottman's work right
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: there's the four horsemen of the apocalypse which can be
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the Criticism and contempt that is associated oftentimes with somebody
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: who's like pursuing. But then there's also this reaction to conflict,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: which can be defensiveness. Like, no, that's not what happened.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: You're misunderstanding me. Or stonewalling, which is this refusal to engage.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: And I think that those are other dimensions of somebody
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: kind of like creating space in a relationship. Is that
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: deflecting or retreating? And so I definitely want to talk
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: about like bigger asking for space. But with the emotional
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: withdrawal that we can see in relationships, stonewalling, defensiveness, a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: refusal to like participate in conversations, emotional layers of that.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Where's that come from?
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: If I were to just give it a couple of words,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I would say it doesn't feel safe anymore to be
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: or to work for things. Or this is a line
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: in the sand that I've drawn before and I don't
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: know how to get over it. So it feels very vulnerable.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: It can feel overwhelming when you ask somebody to do
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: something different over and over again. And it seems that
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: they actively choose to continue in the same pattern. It
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: can feel very defeating and lonely. So they emerge hopeless.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And so when you feel very hopeless in the relationship,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: you don't necessarily know how to create a pathway forward.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Or you feel like you've done it all. I hear
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: that a lot from the people who ask for space. Like,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I feel like I did it all. You've done all
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: these things. I don't know how to move forward anymore.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: I don't even know what that looks like. All I
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: know is it doesn't feel good in my body and
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do this anymore. It's interesting that
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: so many people don't know where their emotions are in
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: their body. And it's something that we learn over time
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: and we've learned so much more. over my three decades
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: of me doing this about our mind and body connection
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: and how emotions sit with us in different places. But
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: I would say like that emotional side of needing it
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: is feeling like you've hit a wall and you don't
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: know how to crawl over it, so to speak.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: But So Jennifer, this is so interesting. And I just
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: need to say this out loud. And again, this might
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: be activating for some of our friends here listening to us,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: which I'm okay with, right? Because I believe that people
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: listening to this particular podcast are here because they want
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: to learn and grow and have a different perspective that
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: is maybe a little bit more nuanced. And so what
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: you're talking about is the real deal, which I will
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: just say that when you are in a relationship and
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: it's feeling hard and you see your partner pulling away
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: or not wanting to participate in conversations or kind of
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: backing up or shutting down or all these things, it's very, very,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: very easy to construct a narrative. around their emotional intelligence,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: their communication capabilities, their capacity for whatever, that is sort
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: of like the reason why this is happening is because
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: of something having to do with them.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Which could also be true. But what you're saying is
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: a very systemic point of view because you are a
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapist and this is a different perspective,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: which is also, so what are they experiencing now? from
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: and with you that is also contributing to this. And
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: that is the part that I think is so hard
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: for people to see is if your partner is taking
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: a step back, what are they reacting to? How are
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: they perceiving you? And is there something that you could
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: do a little bit differently around coming across in a
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: more emotionally safe way? or with more tolerance or more
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: respect and appreciation, more positivity, more, you know, even just
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: making space for their perspective and letting them in.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Right. It goes back to that piece that I talked
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: about before of taking accountability and looking after a relationship.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: When somebody creates a pause, a stop, a standby within
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: the relationship, there's their perspective on what is going on
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: and we have our own perspective, which sometimes we like
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: to plant a flag in it.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Which is the right one. I mean, you are right.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Right. And, but also sometimes it's that time to reflect
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: and go, what are the things that they're trying to
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: tell me? And I had a coach talk about it once.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: And what is their list of intolerables is what they
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: called it. And, and then they, And then thinking about
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: that and really like trying to figure out, is there,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: like you were saying, is there a pathway cord? Is
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: there something I could tweak, do a little bit differently
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: to help them? Because I always go back to the
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: word safety. I know everybody's not, that's not their motivation,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: but for, to feel emotionally safe means that they can
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: be vulnerable. That means that they can have the further conversations.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: They can bring up things without fear of what might
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: be the repercussions. And so in relationships long-term, when certain
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: patterns get created, these certain fears can start to develop
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: and it can feel unsafe because, oh, when I brought
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: up something that was about my feelings, I hear this
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: a lot. I brought up my feelings and then you
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: made it about you. And you didn't actually listen to
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: my feelings. You just started, this goes back to the
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: defensiveness we were talking about with the four horsemen.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Where you're coming from, but you're not actually hearing me.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: And one of the pieces I work with couples with
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: all the time is how do you hear one another?
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: How do you do it in such a way that
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: it's not just surface level? And I've always liked the
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Amado dialogue, which is really kind of that mirroring back
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: and forth. of what did you ever say that I
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: like to take it to another level of understanding what
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: are their feelings? What are they trying to say to you?
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Are there feelings? And what is the purpose of them
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: saying this? Are they looking for you to do action?
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Are they looking for you to apologize or take responsibility?
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: You just ask them, did I get it right? And
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: so this formula helps them to feel heard and helps
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: you to feel heard because sometimes that's what's needed, but,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: The reasons that people ask to take a step away
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: for those pauses, there can be so many different things,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: whether that's internally different things that are going on, whether
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: it's a future in the relationship, whether it's just that
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: they need time to process because it can be, you know, small, medium, large.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: So many different layers and so many different things that
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: this can look like. And also to be clear, and
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I just want to say this out loud too, and
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I think you said this, but I'm going to restate it.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: This isn't any one person's fault. Like this is a
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: dance that two people are doing together. People react to
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: each other's reactions and we all have perspectives and feelings.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: And that is why this work can get so complex.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, even for very experienced professionals who specialize in
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapy, it can become complex. like this
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: eight dimensional thing, which is also why, I mean, we
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: talk about this a lot on the show. I personally
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: feel very concerned when people are trying to do this
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: type of work with a just clinical mental health professional,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: AKA a therapist who does not have any of this.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, they learned how to diagnose and treat anxiety
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: or depression, but they are now, you know, working with
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: a couple and trying to, figure out what's even happening
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: and so no shade to them therapists are great i
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: am here for therapists therapists listening come check out my
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: love happiness and success for therapists podcast we're talking about
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: you every single week but there's a real difference in
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: understanding scope that comes from your background and your training
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: that is very very different absolutely i mean it But
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: there are very few marriage and family therapists compared to
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: regular therapists. And I just want to say that to
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: people because I think, well, just sorry to keep going on,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: but I think like a lot of people coming into
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: therapy or marriage counseling expect that this is where we're
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: going to go. And then they have a different experience
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: because they've connected with the wrong type of provider without
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: even knowing it. So I just wanted to put that out.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many times I have been
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: very specific. And if I'm meeting somebody individually or what
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: have you, and they're starting that couple aspect that you
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: really want to look for a marriage and family therapist,
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: because it is something that you brought up earlier. Lisa,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: that's really important. Yeah. Is that systemic look to things? Right.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Looking at all of the different elements and being able
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: to be in the room with two people and coming
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: from two different backgrounds, two different places and all that,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: it really is a different set of skills that you need.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: to be able to work with them. And like I said,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: like you said, no shade against anyone else. It's just,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: it is just a very different subset. Totally. Yeah.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: And we have specialty, like I'm, I'm not that great
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: with depression or, I mean, I'm not a trauma expert. Right.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: So it was like, we have to find our lane. Anyway. Okay,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: so we have to take another really quick break now, Jennifer. However,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: on the other side, I want us to get close
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: to the third rail situation that all this brought up earlier.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: What if your partner is saying, I need some space
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: as in, I want us to take a break. I
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: want us to pause the relationship or, I mean, it
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: can even look like a separation, right? So not like,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I'm done, done, but... taking an actual break. I'm going
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: to move into a different apartment for a few months
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: type of break. Can we talk about that on the
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: other side of the break?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: So True story.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: I went through a period in my life when I
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: thought I was losing my mind. I couldn't remember anything.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I felt foggy.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: I was exhausted.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I felt very irritable. Then started hearing that there's a
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: thing called perimenopause that happens to women in their 40s
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: and that it might apply to me. But I felt
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: so much better once I started managing it with a
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: variety of strategies, including supplements like Ritual. Ritual Perimenopause Health
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: is a daily hormone-free supplement formulated to support perimenopausal hormone
• 41:17
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• 41:21
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• 41:24
  Speaker 1: high-potency shatavari extract, evening primrose oil, and vitamin B6. These
• 41:30
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• 41:33
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• 41:36
  Speaker 1: daily routine with Ritual. Get 25% off your first order
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: at ritual.com slash LHS. That is ritual.com slash LHS for
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: 25% off your first order. We are back with Jennifer Cunningham,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: a marriage and family therapist and board certified coach who
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: works with me at Growing Self. And Jennifer, we're talking
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: about what it means when people are needing to take
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: a step. And so we talked about, you know, what
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: does this look like in a communication thing? People taking
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: like a pause, calming down in communication settings. We talked
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: about what it means if people are backing up like
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: emotionally and some of.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: The dynamics related to that.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: But now I'd love your insight on what does it
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: mean if somebody's Actually asking for a break in the relationship.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: How do you interpret that from your perspective?
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's different for different relationships. Number one,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: whether it's a newer relationship to a more seasoned or
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: older relationship. I see it means different things. For the
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: younger relationships, maybe they don't know what it looks like
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: to move forward or they maybe not experience some of
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: the things that they're encountering within the relationship. I need space.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: I need to get out of here because I don't
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: know how to do that is something that I've seen.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I've run into a lot. Couples who've been together for years,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: over six months. Separation means I need to regroup. that
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: being in this relationship right now, I am missing pieces
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: of myself. I am missing what I'm able to think
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: through and me needing space or moving to another location,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: even for a few months, then I hope to gain
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: clarity on who I am now and what I want.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Because that's a really important piece that is intermingled both
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: in my individual work and couples work with people is
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: we do change over time. And so even with somebody who,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: 10 15 20 30 40 plus years and you look
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: different than you did they won as do they and
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: so sometimes it's like do i still see you in
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: this next season of my life and so we need
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: to gain perspective depending on where they're at so what
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: is hard is saying and i need space isn't definitive
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: A lot of times it doesn't just say, oh, well,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: I'd like to separate. It doesn't say I want a divorce.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I want to break up. I need space. So it's
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: like a pause.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: And that can feel very disconcerting depending on how you
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: function around creating a pause or the questions you have
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: around it or the reasons for it. But there are
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: so many reasons why they might ask for it and
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: need that space because. In that same environment with their
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: partner or family or what have you, they might not
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: be able to gain the clarity that they feel they
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: need in that moment.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: But I also see that sometimes it's, along with all
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: the reasons, but sometimes it started with the death of
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: somebody who was close to them.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Is this what I want? Is this still the course
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: that I want for my life? Or change in job?
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: or loss of job or moving. Like there's all those
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: major transitions, kids moved out quite often with that.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: So you're saying that there, and we know this, you know,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: a crisis can really catalyze a transformation that in many
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: ways is very positive, right? Like memento mori or a
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: stage of life and like, okay, I guess, you know,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: our kids are moving out. Who am I now? And
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: that sometimes it can be really helpful to, to have space,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: almost like to go on a vision quest. Like I
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: need to, I don't know if there are any other,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: this is a personal share, probably too much information. But
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: so in my family growing up, like a tarot was
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: part of it. We were talking earlier, if it's okay
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: to share that you came from like a religious culture
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: growing up and mine was sort of like metaphysical, both spiritual.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: We do have a lot in common. But there's a card,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: the hermit card, whereas you need to like separate and
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: listen to your inner voice, your inner light in order
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: to find the direction from inside of yourself. It's just
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: a symbol. But that's what it can be. And I
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: have seen that too, particularly people who've been in relationships
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: for a long time and midlife and kids getting older
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: need that. Who am I now? And if they're in
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: the jumble of the day to day, it can be
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: hard to hear that. And I think related to this,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: I have also seen a very positive application of this,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: which is people who love each other and there's a
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: lot of strength in a relationship, but who are in
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: a very high conflict season. There's a lot of just
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: hostility and like fights breaking out left and right, a
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: therapeutic separation to take a little break, maybe live in
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: different homes and still coming together. in marriage counseling or
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: communication coaching, while they're like resolving the communication pieces, it's
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: almost like resting the, lowering the heat, making it so
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: that there aren't these like fights breaking out between sessions
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: and it's almost safer feeling. And so they're still working
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: on the relationship and repairing communication. without it like re-injuring
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: the relationship while it's happening. They need space to do that.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I've seen very healthy separations with clients where the
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: end result was a better relationship. Because they needed it
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: to be able to process and not just keep repeating
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: patterns when they go back home. And instead getting to
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: utilize the tools and techniques to help them communicate more
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: effectively with one another, hear each other, those pieces.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Breaking the pattern. It breaks the pattern. That was the
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: way you said it.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: So I think that what we're talking about right now,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: the context of a, Longer term relationship, why somebody might
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: need to take a break in a very healthy, appropriate
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: way that also contains a lot of hope for a next,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: like actually better chapter of the relationship and giving each
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: other space. But that takes a lot of, I think,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: emotional maturity, the ability to tolerate a lot of big
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: feelings because it is scary. There are a lot of unknowns.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: And so just with this use case, and I'm going
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: to ask you about a different one, but with this
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: use case, Do you have any recommendations for someone whose
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: partner is wanting this? I need some space from us
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: for a while. To help them handle this in a
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: constructive way. Because this is us. Rape opportunities for freakouts
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: and spirals and meltdowns.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. So a couple of things that I would say is,
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: number one, don't decide it in the first conversation. Give
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: it a couple of conversations for you to actually sit
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: with it for a while and figure out kind of
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: what your parameters are. What is it that you would need?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: How long? When are we going to revisit? this what
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: does it look like do we have contact don't we
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: have contact that way you can have clarity on what
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: this time frame is for and so that you can
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: come back together and make the choices that you need
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: to on either moving forward in the relationship or working
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: together with a couples therapist or couples coach? Or does
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: that mean that we're resolving the relationship and moving forward
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: on our own? But it's really important to understand the parameters,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: like how long are you asking for? What is it
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: that you need? How much contact? Those kind of things.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: It would be the kind of thing that you need
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: to sit with and have multiple discussions because if you
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: try to have it in one discussion, you're activated most
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: likely when somebody just brings up space. So give yourself
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: some time to sit with it and to be clear
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: with where you're at. And it might change. And it
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: may feel different after in it. And that's where leaving
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: the opportunities to have other conversations or saying, hey, this
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: isn't working for me or not. can happen especially when
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: you're able because it's coming from a very emotionally mature
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: place of understanding what you need and I don't expect
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: that everybody knows what they need and so I want
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: to really emphasize that to you and so yeah sometimes
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: having somebody help with discernment can be very helpful in
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: these times.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Like is this a moment where you would advise like
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: get a qualified, competent person to maybe even have some
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: of these conversations with you because it can be very
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: like powder keggy, like super intense just with the feelings
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: of the attachment stuff. But also what you just said
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: is that, and this I think surprises people who don't
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: do what we do to hear, but that there's people
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: don't know how they feel. they don't know how they think.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: There's like this whole process of figuring that out. And
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: especially in these kinds of moments to have somebody who
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: can facilitate that so that you could even articulate what
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: that is in conversations with your partner could be enormously helpful.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Like do this with a lifeguard in the room is
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. A process consultant.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Or a mediator. The person who is there. Just a
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: person that's there that can hear both sides and Is
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: it so emotionally invested that can help fill you different
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: ways or pathways forward? Pathways. And I think that would
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: be really important to have somebody there that's not necessarily
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: just like a friend or somebody who's involved in your
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: regular life. It's really important to have somebody who's neutral
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: as possible. Of course, we all have a bias. As
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: neutral as possible to be there and help.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: Well, let me just say that out loud then. A
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: professional marriage and family therapist who knows what they are
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: doing will always be neutral. That both people in this
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: conversation should feel heard, respected, and understood. And one sign
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: that you may have engaged with the wrong type of
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: helping professional is that if they start having reactions and
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: their personal biases or preferences are coming into that conversation,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: that is never appropriate.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Jennifer, thank you for bringing that into the light. Such
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: a good conversation. And I know we're coming up on time.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: I have to just ask you about one other thing
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: before I let you go on this topic of people
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: saying that they need some space. I think that there's
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: also a different type of situation that I've actually observed
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: with younger people, particularly like, you know, teenagers or young
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: 20-somethings or or maybe it's not age-related, but people who
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: are in dating relationships, maybe, that they probably don't want
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: to continue. And they're not necessarily mad at the other person.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: They don't hate the other person. It doesn't need to
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: be a big thing. But they will have conversations. Yay,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: that they're not ghosting, right? Like, that's a win right there.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: But then they might say things like, maybe we just
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: need to take some time, need a little break because
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: they feel really squeamish about saying, I don't know that
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: I want to keep dating you. I like you. Maybe
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: we could be friends, but I don't want to do
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: this anymore because they're really worried about hurting somebody else's feelings.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: So they sugarcoat it to the point that the other
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: person is left thinking that they're taking a break when
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: the other person is like, okay, bye. Like is actually
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: out of the pool. Do you have any insight into that?
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: Or like, If somebody's gotten that message from somebody and
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: it's trying to be like, okay, are we taking a break?
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Did I just get broken up with? What's happening? How
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: do you decode that?
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: I actually have. Do you know what I mean? Some
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: people really are set not to hurt other people so
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: much so that they hurt them more. And they don't mean,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: and asking for a break when you truly want to
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: be away means that you're not. Break up. Yeah.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: Like missing a word.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: You're not honest with yourself. Or with the other person.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: And then just dragging it along and slowly letting it dissolve.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Just is elongating the heartache that the other person experiences.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Well, why is it more destructive? Say a little bit
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: about that. Because I think the person who thinks that
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: they're letting them down slowly, right? is actually being more
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: destructive because I do think that people who do that
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: typically are actually trying to be kind in a misguided way.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: What do they need to know?
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: I actually had a client talk the other day, talk
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: about health. Oh, I don't hurt people. I'm like, oh, okay.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: And then we talked about some ways where she had. And,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: but sometimes you're just, aren't cognizant of it but the
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: thing is how it hurts the other person more is
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: it keeps giving them a carrot it keeps telling them
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: that there's still hope so they keep sitting in the
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: hope that someday you're going to want to work on
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: this or move forward and so it doesn't allow for
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: that other person to move forward and instead they stay
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: stuck and we do a lot of or I do
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: a lot of work with heartbreak recovery And so many
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: people can stay stuck because they were given that, that
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: I just want to go on a break, but the
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: break means I want to break up, but I'm not
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: going to ever tell you that. I'm just going to
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: try to be friends with you or be friendly with
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: you or however those next steps look. And it continues
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: to give that person false hope that there is a
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: pathway forward instead of letting them know that it was
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: a good run. but this isn't the relationship I want
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: to be in. And then there's clarity in there. But
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: part of that is knowing yourself, knowing what you want,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: and that sometimes it's better to rip the Band-Aid off
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: than it is to slowly take it off to try
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: to keep yourself from coming to pay.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: They are dangling in this emotional purgatory of, they are
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: still attached to you, not knowing that you're no longer
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: attached to them and that that's not fair.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: So then this is a hard one and I'm going
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: to ask you anyway. So imagine a person, one of
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: our friends here listening to this today has had that
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: type of experience and they said they were coming and
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: they want them to come back, right? They are still
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: attached Is there anything that this person could do in
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: order to like almost get clarity about what this is?
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: They said they were coming back. Are they? Is there
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: a conversation they could broach or something that you would
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: look at to like reality test what's really going on?
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Or do they just need to decide for themselves what
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: they want to do?
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: One, they could just look at a relationship inventory of
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: what the relationship really was and where they're at and
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: how they feel about it. If they were to take
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: one step back and write it out. That's one. Two,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: they can, if it's still viable, contact the person and
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: ask very black and white questions. Like, you said you
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: needed a break. You took time. Do you feel that
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: we're over or that there is no pathway forward for us?
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: I just need clarity. And just like being that blunt
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: about it so that it gives that person the opportunity,
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: the other person to just say yes or no. And
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: hopefully not continue to dangle the carrot. And then the third,
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: like you were talking about, is in any time that
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: you are in a pause, there's always an opportunity for
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: growth and to work on yourself. And so you figure,
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: take that time for you to be able to move
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: forward and, and time, if you're able to let it
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: go and give it its place that you've learned from
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: that relationship versus it is the end all be all
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: of your existence. Yeah. We have different ways that we're
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: attached and some, some relationships are harder to let go
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: of than others. And especially when there's false hope and,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: you know, yeah it is really looking at different paths
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: of understanding whether it's understanding the relationship getting blunt black
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: and white clarity from the other person if possible or
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: it is taking those steps to take care of yourself
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: or to learn about yourself so that you can be
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: ready to be in another relationship or to let go
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: of that relationship. Amazing.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: All right, Jennifer. Well, this, like, note to self, you're
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: going to be coming back on this podcast very soon.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: And I think we should talk more about, because you
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: also have so much expertise in heartbreak recovery and how
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: to heal, grow, move forward when a relationship has actually ended.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: So you guys stay tuned for that conversation. with Jennifer Cunningham.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: But Jennifer, thank you so much today for just lending
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: your expertise to this conversation as a communication and relationship
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: expert around how to navigate these moments that can be
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: really confusing, but also can also be extremely important turning
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: points for a conversation or even for the trajectory of
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: a relationship. It's been a true pleasure.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you. thanking you for having me on today. And
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: I look forward to have future discussions.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: And so I will also share just the quick outro. Jennifer,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: I know that you would not promote yourself because you're
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: not that type of person, but I will. Jennifer is
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: such an excellent couples counselor, relationship coach. She is a
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: person that I refer people to personally when they're like, Lisa,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: who should I talk to? Jennifer Cunningham is one of those.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: And she's on my team here at Growing Self. She's
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: part of our network. If you would like to talk
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: with Jennifer about your situation, come to growingself.com forward slash Jen, J-E-N,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: that's growingself.com forward slash Jen. You can learn more about
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: her and also book a free consultation meeting with Jennifer
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: to simply talk about what's going on, your hopes and
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: goals for your relationship and find out whether or not
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: she is actually the right person for to assist you
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: to attain the outcomes that you want to achieve. So growingself.com
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: forward slash Jen and Jen, I sincerely hope that our
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: friends come and talk with you about these difficult moments
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: because you have so much to offer. So thank you
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: for sharing just a little bit of that today.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you.