Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S5E3 Brian Joseph, Author - Vegas Concierge - Sex Trafficking, Hip Hop and Corruption in America

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S5E3 Brian Joseph, Author - Vegas Concierge - Sex Trafficking, Hip Hop and Corruption in America · True Crime and Wine Time

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  Speaker 1: Hey, guys, nothing like having technical issues when you're partnering.
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  Speaker 1: Crime is not here and producer Tara and I are
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  Speaker 1: trying to figure it all out. So I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: thing that doing things live like this means we have
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  Speaker 1: to go with the flow, so that is what.
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  Speaker 2: We are doing.
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  Speaker 1: I am sitting here also trying to get everything going
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  Speaker 1: on the back end, on my end and see if
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  Speaker 1: we can get it all going. Okay, I am going
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  Speaker 1: to assume it looks like we are up and going.
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  Speaker 1: Captain's here, so that means we are somewhat back, So
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate it everybody, And welcome, welcome, welcome, thank you
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: for your patients, and welcome back to True Crime and
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Wine time. For those of you that are new here.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Terry true Crime, and tonight I'm writing so Low
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  Speaker 1: as my partner in crime, JT is somewhere in the
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  Speaker 1: middle of the ocean on a cruise with his beautiful
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  Speaker 1: bride of ten years celebrating their anniversary. He did promise
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  Speaker 1: me that there will be no crimes that happen on
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  Speaker 1: the cruise ship, so I don't need to go and
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  Speaker 1: take care of him. He's not going to do anything crazy.
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  Speaker 1: And he also promised me he wouldn't jump overboard. So guys, tonight,
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  Speaker 1: we are honored to have a very special guest with
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  Speaker 1: us Joseph the investigative journalist, an author behind the explosive
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  Speaker 1: book Vegas concierg, Sex, Trafficking, hip hop and Corruption in America.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Hey, Brian, how are you.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: I'm very good. How are you?
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I'm good?
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  Speaker 1: Thank you for your patients. With technology, it always seems
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  Speaker 1: to happen when our tech guy is not around.
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  Speaker 4: No problem. Technology is frustrating and it happens to all
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  Speaker 4: of us.
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  Speaker 2: It does.
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  Speaker 1: And then I think back to the times when it's complicated.
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, we didn't have this back in the day,
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  Speaker 1: so it's better than it used to be. Right, absolutely, Well,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: before we get started into talking about your book, I
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: want to let everyone know today I am drinking a
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: textbook cab from Paseo Roblis, California, and I recently just
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: covered this wine after a friend gave me a bottle
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: on New Year's Eve, and now I've bought several more
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: and added to my collection because it is a smooth
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: but very bold wine. And to me, it tastes like
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: black cherry and milk chocolate. So wine chocolate. Can't say
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: anything's wrong with that? What are you drink, Ken, Brian Well, I.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: Can't claim to be much of a wine connoisseur. This
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: is literally the only bottle we had at home.
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  Speaker 3: It is a it's a Chateau de Lied. I hope
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: I'm pronouncing that correctly. It's a.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: Bordeaux style, oh less. I had to look that up
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: in order to be able to talk about it intelligently.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: Like I said, it's the only wine we had in house. Uh,
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: I just had my first sip.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Now it's a.
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  Speaker 2: Is it pretty good?
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  Speaker 4: You know?
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  Speaker 3: It's rich like any Bordeaux and it's a. It's good.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, You're gonna have a furry tongue after a border.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Bordeaus always make my tongue feel like it swelled three sizes.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: So I want to first of all say thank you
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  Speaker 1: for joining us.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: And as I.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Told you before we started the show tonight, I mean,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: your book is just great it's very eye opening.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: But I want to thank you.
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  Speaker 1: For your fearless work in exposing the dark realities that
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: I think so many people turn a blind eye to
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: because it's an uncomfortable topic, and with the challenges you
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: faced in writing the book, I want to say thank
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  Speaker 1: you because that takes a lot of courage.
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  Speaker 3: Oh well, well, thank you. It was a it was
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  Speaker 3: an issue.
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  Speaker 4: Once I became aware of that, I felt like I
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  Speaker 4: couldn't turn away from. And I really just you know,
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: felt propelled until you know, we reached publication.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I've enjoyed reading your book. I'm
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: reading a third time. I do that with books that
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: I like because I learn that I learn new things
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: each time when I read it.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: And after living in Vegas for four years.
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  Speaker 1: I like, I told you. I mean, I didn't know
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  Speaker 1: that that happened there. I mean, I know it happens everywhere,
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  Speaker 1: but I didn't know it was such.
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  Speaker 2: A thing in Las Vegas.
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  Speaker 1: And I guess I thought that because it's so close
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  Speaker 1: to Peromp, where they have it legal. So I didn't
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  Speaker 1: think because sex work was legal so close, I just
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  Speaker 1: assumed that you wouldn't have to have issues in Vegas
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  Speaker 1: with it and guess what I was wrong like I
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: am a lot of times. So I want to say
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  Speaker 1: thank you for the courage, you know, to write the book.
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  Speaker 3: I appreciate that. Thank you.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Now.
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  Speaker 1: In the book, Vegas Concier Ryan he peels back. He
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  Speaker 1: peels back the curtain on a shadowy intersection of power,
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  Speaker 1: exploitation and the entertainment world, and specifically he las Vegas,
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  Speaker 1: which is known for its glitz, its glamour, hides much
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  Speaker 1: darker stuff than what most of us know about. And
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  Speaker 1: tonight with Brian, we're going to talk about what he uncovered,
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  Speaker 1: the survivors he met, the systems that failed them, and
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  Speaker 1: the powerful forces protecting these criminal networks. And we're also
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  Speaker 1: going to explore how the hip hop industry intersects with
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  Speaker 1: this underworld and what needs to change to finally bring
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  Speaker 1: justice to the victims. So I want to just tell everybody,
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  Speaker 1: pour your favorite wine, cocktail, glass of water, whatever, settle
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: in and get ready for a very raw, eye opening
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  Speaker 1: conversation that reminds us why shining a light on the
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  Speaker 1: darkest corners of society is so important. I also want
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: to let everyone know we will be talking about some
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  Speaker 1: things that are very uncomfortable. We're not going to get
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  Speaker 1: into detail, but if sex trafficking, sex abuse, any type
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  Speaker 1: of abuse is triggering to you, you might want to
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  Speaker 1: skip this episode and come back to see us next week.
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  Speaker 1: No hard feelings because it's it's a dark side, but
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  Speaker 1: it's also reality.
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  Speaker 2: So first thing I want to know.
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  Speaker 1: In your book, you do tell us about how you
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: arrived in Las Vegas, but for those who haven't read
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: the book, can you tell us how and why you
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: moved to Las Vegas, Because if you were like me,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: you didn't have on your places I want to live.
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  Speaker 1: I don't think Las Vegas was probably the top of
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  Speaker 1: your list, was it.
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  Speaker 3: No, it's sort of it wasn't. I don't think.
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  Speaker 4: I think it's safe to say it wasn't on our
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  Speaker 4: radar at all about I don't know exactly how many months,
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: but it was. It was months before we moved to Vegas.
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  Speaker 4: My wife and I had our one and only daughter,
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: our one only child, they should say, And you know,
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  Speaker 4: I was working for a small news organization at the time.
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  Speaker 4: My wife was working in a job she particularly like.
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  Speaker 4: She you know, really wanted to be home with our daughter, understandably, so,
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  Speaker 4: so I was looking around for work and sort of
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  Speaker 4: out of the blue, I was recruited by the newspaper
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  Speaker 4: in Las Vegas to uh, to come and join a
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  Speaker 4: newly launched investigative team.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I don't know if you want to get into it,
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  Speaker 1: but in the book you did share a little bit
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: about why you weren't necessarily jumping excitedly when you got
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: reached out to buy the newspaper.
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  Speaker 4: I'd say, I'd say read the book for that. I
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: I'd prefer not to not to get into.
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  Speaker 3: That too much.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, Uh, Just like I think people, if you don't
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  Speaker 1: know a lot about Las Vegas, there's two big newspaper
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  Speaker 1: first there, and it's just kind of interesting that they
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  Speaker 1: are different. But what inspired you to write Vegas Concierge
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  Speaker 1: And how did you first become involved in investigating the
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  Speaker 1: intersection of sex trafficking, hip hop and corruption, Like how
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  Speaker 1: did you find yourself in that world?
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  Speaker 3: Well, the hip hop and corruption came much much later
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  Speaker 3: on in my research.
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: It really pardon me, I'm getting over a flu we
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: had about three weeks ago, so I'm still coughing a bit.
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  Speaker 2: It's that time of year, is.
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  Speaker 4: Definitely so with this really began was was with an
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  Speaker 4: editor mentioning to me that, you know, if I had
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  Speaker 4: previously done some reporting on foster care, and if I
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  Speaker 4: had done some reporting on foster care, perhaps I'd be
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  Speaker 4: interested in reporting on sex trafficking.
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  Speaker 3: And I saw.
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  Speaker 4: Some similarities between foster care and sex trafficking, very broadly
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: marginalized populations, populations that policy makers don't think great deal about.
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  Speaker 4: That's what really sort of, you know, led me into
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  Speaker 4: into that topic matter is to begin with, I I
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  Speaker 4: I quickly learned that some of the strategies and issues
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  Speaker 4: that I faced in reporting on foster care were not
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  Speaker 4: quite the same as reporting on on domestic sex trafficking.
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  Speaker 4: But I generally like stories that are you know, rooted
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  Speaker 4: on people and in trying to stories that try to
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  Speaker 4: help folks, And so that's really what sort of propelled
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  Speaker 4: me initially into that research. And as I got deeper
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  Speaker 4: and deeper into it, I just became more and more
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  Speaker 4: horrified with the things that I was learning and came
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  Speaker 4: to really view victims and survivors of sex trafficking is
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  Speaker 4: among the most part marginalized people in America, And there
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  Speaker 4: sort of came to a point where it was like,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I can't stop reporting on this.
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  Speaker 3: I can't stop working on this until it's the light
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  Speaker 3: of day.
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  Speaker 2: Now.
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  Speaker 1: During your research, is there anything that you found that
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: was particularly shocking or difficult to process? Because I imagine,
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  Speaker 1: like you said, it was horrifying. I'm sure there was
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  Speaker 1: a lot of it, But was there one thing that
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: was just hard?
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know if this was the hardest
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  Speaker 4: thing that. I mean, I processed and had to encountered
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  Speaker 4: a lot of things that were difficult, But I think
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  Speaker 4: one of the early sort of realizations that I had
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  Speaker 4: was that the victims and survivors of sex trafficking typically
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  Speaker 4: are victims of something else that happened earlier in their life,
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  Speaker 4: some traumatic event. Maybe they had a brother that was killed,
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  Speaker 4: or a father who was abusive, something like that, and
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: that traumatic event then you know, affected their self esteem,
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  Speaker 4: affected affected their soul for lack of a better term,
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  Speaker 4: and then made them vulnerable to the exploitation of a trafficker,
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  Speaker 4: of a pimp, and and and so that dynamic alone
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  Speaker 4: is horrifying. We're talking about people who typically are are
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  Speaker 4: doubly victimized. They had an early victimization, and then their
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  Speaker 4: trafficking experience was victimized. That alone is horrifying. But then
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  Speaker 4: to realize that when they're on, when they're out of
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  Speaker 4: that lifestyle and seeking to get justice or seeking to
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  Speaker 4: move on with their life, but they're then on marginalized
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  Speaker 4: in our society because people dismiss them as immoral.
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  Speaker 3: Women or bad people.
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  Speaker 4: And so to me, that just struck struck me as
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  Speaker 4: like a triple victimization of people. And and sort of
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  Speaker 4: realizing those three things and then going, you know, this
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  Speaker 4: isn't a major policy, uh priority for really anybody that
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  Speaker 4: I'm aware of the American politics.
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  Speaker 3: That that to me was just morally.
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  Speaker 4: Repugnant and something that that just, you know, frankly stuck
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  Speaker 4: in my craw And I looked at that and said,
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  Speaker 4: now that I know these facts, I mean, how is
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  Speaker 4: nobody doing anything about it, or nobody, you know, devoting
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: a great deal of time.
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  Speaker 2: And resources to it.
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  Speaker 1: It's almost like they're forgotten. They're like invisible people.
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  Speaker 4: That's one way to look at it, But I think
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  Speaker 4: I think there's another way to look at it, which
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  Speaker 4: is what we have so many preconceived notions about who
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: these victims are. We again, we think that they're they're immoral,
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: that they they're just out to make a buck things
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: like that.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, nothing could be further from the truth.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I hadn't planned on sharing this story, but
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna share it real quick because I know she
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: won't mine.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: But back in the day, I.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Used to own a staffing company and I met a
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: wonderful person who her name's Clayton.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: She's kind of a good friend of mine.
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  Speaker 1: She and I partnered together and we helped get a
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: couple of sex workers out of that line of work
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: in Dallas. And because I had a staffing company, helped
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: get them jobs, got them the clothes they needed, got
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: them some skills, and now one of them, actually, Laurie,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: became and worked for us. And I will say I
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: will never forget her telling me about the things that
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: happened in her childhood that led her to where she
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: where she was, and how she wound up with the pimp,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: how she wound up on the street. And that was
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: the first time in my privileged world that I realized
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: they weren't out just for money. They were not out
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: there doing all the things I had thought and how
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: I was raised to think. And I now think there's
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of people that way.
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  Speaker 4: Well, well, you were lightened, and there's sadly so many
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: people in American society who who don't know that, and
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: just you know, take the images we see on television
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: or in popular culture.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: I think that's the truth.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, Now, how did you navigate the
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: risk and challenges because you and this is a dangerous
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: as well as complex subject and you know issue, how
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: did you navigate the risk and challenges of investigating it?
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: Well, excuse me.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: I was very blessed to have people I was working
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: with and continue to work with, who knew many of
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: the principles involved, who knew the issue intimately and were
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: able to advise me, you know, when something I was
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: doing was potentially risky and I was able to you know,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: assess those risks with their help and analyze it and
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: you know, make decisions accordingly.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Now, what role do you think Las Vegas plays in
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the story? Because I think it happens a lot more places,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: It's not just Vegas, especially after reading your book and
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: the way things kind of move around.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: But how do you think.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Vegas became such a hub of that type of industry.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: Well, I think it became a hub for a number
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: of reasons. It is a community that rebels in sinful behavior,
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: and of course we often associate sinful behavior with sexual practices.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: You already mentioned that Nevada does have parts of it
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: where sex work is legal under underlimited conditions. Again, Vegas
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: is not one of those places, but it's close enough
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: that people who might want to engage in that behavior,
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: you know, the most likely are staying at a casino
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: or a resort, and the people at the resort and
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: you know, work there, you know, don't want them to leave,
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: don't want them to go an hour to perumpt they
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: want them to stay there. So there's not an incentive
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: to to really you know, correct them if they if
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: they do believe that sex work is legal in Vegas,
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: or on the other hand, it gives them an incentive
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: to sort of turn a blind eye for you know,
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: activity that you know might raise a red flag in
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: the mind of someone else and under different circumstances. And
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: then finally, I think the third major reason is simply,
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: you know, Vegas is a huge tourist attraction and there's
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: you know, a lot of money to be made here
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: from the people who come.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I will never forget when we were moving to Vegas
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: and we went to look at houses, and we took
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: both of our boys. One was going into middle school,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: one was going into high school. So we took them
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: down to the Strip during the day. I will never
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: forget the guys standing there flipping those cards with pictures
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: of women on them, and he handed one to my
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: middle school kid, and we hadn't even moved there yet,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: and I took them out of his and I dropped
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: him on the ground as said, not my kid. And
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: you're right, it's it happens there. I'm assuming it still
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: happens there. I've been gone nine ten years now, I'm
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: guessing that still happens. But they're handing out those cards
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: for escorts.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: The I.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: I haven't seen the cards in quite some time.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: I believe that that practice is no longer, Okay, I don't.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: I don't know that that it's not happening everywhere. It's
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: certainly not as pervasive as it once was. But I
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: can't tell you if it's definitely not happening anywhere.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: I can't say that.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: But yes, I mean there's certainly still ads for you know,
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: for well, there's you know, billboards for right for struck clubs,
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: and there's certainly a lot of activity, you know, in
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: cyberspace on these topics.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, do you think that because Vegas when it
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: rebranded itself many many years ago from being the fun
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: family place to the tagline what Happens in Vegas Stays
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: in Vegas, do you think that made it more enticing
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: for Because I'll remember when they went from getting people
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: to go to circus Circus before I'd ever been to Vegas,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: when they flip to say, and what happens in Vegas
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: stays in Vegas. My first thought was that's where all
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: the naughty people go.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, it certainly puts you in a certain frame
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: of mine, doesn't it about what when you come to
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: Vegas to do and what's available to you? You know,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: I haven't done any you know, sociological studies to tell you, you know,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: how things specifically changed, But I think it's reasonable to
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: at least think that that branding and that framing had
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: an impact.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, Tourism Committee, I'm going to just go out
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: on the limb and say I think it had something
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: to do with it.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: And I a couple of people that work in that
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: group now, so I'll.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Be nice, but can you tell us how the hip
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: hop industry intersected with the trafficking and corruption that you
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: were uncovered when you were doing your research.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: Certainly, so the main sorry, the main intersection is the
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: primary trafficker UH looked at in the book. UH is
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: also a hip hop music producer, and so that was
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: sort of the primary entryway into UH into looking at
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: hip hop. What we also did in the book is
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: we we use that that connection as a way to
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: look at how hip hop talks about pimping and pimps.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: And what we found is that hip hop often uses
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: the term pimp to refer to UH, you know, a
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: flashy person or a super lover. Pimping can be referred
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: to as as having a lot of style. And so
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: I want to be very clear, however, that I don't
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: believe that there is that hip hop is to blame
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: for sex trafficking, or that there is anything that there's
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: anything essential in hip hop that that connects it with
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: with with sex trafficking. You can have there are wonderful
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: artists and wonderful albums and wonderful songs nothing to do
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: with this, And I don't want to ever, you know,
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: give the impression that there's some sort of intrinsic connection,
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: or there's something essential, or the hip hop is to blame.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: I don't believe that at all. That being said, though
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: you know it is, it is common.
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: I think it's fair to say that in hip hop
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: the term pimp is used in a way that doesn't
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: exactly describe it when we're talking about a trafficker, and
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: that sort of soft pedaling of that term can you know,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: potentially have some corrosive effects on people who who might
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: not be educated on this issue. If you're if you're
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: perhaps a young woman who's heard on the radio the
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: term pim several times and then you meet someone who
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: says I am a pem, you know that might not
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: raise red flags for that young woman when you know
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: pimps are scary individuals, and then anyone that you know
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: takes on that moniker you should be wary of.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, growing up in the eighties, I mean,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: this is kind of a funny story, but when I
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: was in middle school, right before going to high school,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: my dad was working a job and he was in
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: New Orleans.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: So there was the company put him up.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: He was in the oil industry and we were down
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: on Bourbon Street, so we had a balcony to his
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: apartment and I remember looking at my mom and I said,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: I want to be one of those ladies that's wearing
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: those feather things in those high heels, with a beautiful makeup.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: And sparkly things, and I will never forget.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: My dad goes, well, look at the guy behind her
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: who's watching everything she does and is telling her what
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: to do when to do. But I just thought it
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: was glamorous until, thankfully, you know, my dad said, that's
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: a pimp. And if you ever have someone say I'm
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: a pimp, he goes, you run as fast as you
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: can and you scream for help. And I don't think
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: a lot of people ever know that it's just because
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: it's glamorized.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: It absolutely is.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: It Sadly, popular culture often plays often plays pimps for
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: laughs or alternatively. You know, the term is soft pedal
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: to mean you know, cool or smooth, something like that,
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: and that's just not you know what it truly is.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Now in your book, you share the story of Angela
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: who I mean, she was prominent throughout your book and
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: she was a survivor who endured exploitation under you know,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: a notorious pimp and hip hop producer, and I think
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: it's Molly mally Mall?
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Is that how you say?
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: First thing I have to say about her before getting feather,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: the fact that she spoke up and talked to you
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: and reading your book my heart. I felt for her
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: story and I think the courage it took for her
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: tell her story. So I think it's just amazing. So
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't if Yeah.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: If I may say so, Angela is the most courageous
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: person I've.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: Ever met and and.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: Is a true uh is a true hero for for
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: for stepping up and being willing to put herself and
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: her story.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Out there because it couldn't be easy. I mean, I'm
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: sure she was scared that somebody was going to come
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: after her, didn't want her to talk, you know, didn't
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: want any of that. So I mean she's very courageous. Now,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: can you share her background and some of the circumstances
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: that led her to Molly Mal's control.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean the book goes into two more details.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: About maybe I highlight it, Yeah, don't tell the book.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: Well, she grew up in a in a in a
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: in a in a lower income part of of Houston. Uh,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: her father wasn't around very much her her mother was
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: absent quite a bit as well, and and she uh
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: spent a lot of time in the care of of sitters,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: and you know, grew up feeling very rejected.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: And unloved.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: Uh And and you know, she was you know, uh,
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: you know, I think you know, I hate talking for her, right,
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: but I I think I think she, you know, sought
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: out the the affections of adults and and and and
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: saw out validation from them, and.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Very common, I mean a lot of people. One thing
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: that I was surprised and I wanted to talk a
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: little bit about is the methods that pimps in general.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I think, I think it not just him, but that
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: they employed to recruit and entrap people. Because that was
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: eye opening to me. That was shocking, to be honest,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I had to go back and read it a couple
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: of times. I was like, they actually do this to
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: suck people in.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: Yes, that what you're describing falls under the general category
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: of something that's known as grooming, and it can take
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: many different forms, but generally what it can involve is
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: a pimp, a trafficker closing up to a potential victim
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: and you know, showering them with attention, showering them with gifts,
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: making them promises, things of that nature. That's sort of
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: the early stages.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: And then you know, once.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: Sort of the the hook is planted, you know, then
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: you know grooming can then take some different different forms
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: from there. But that that generally and very broadly describes
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: what grooming.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Can look like.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: I want to be clear that you know, it's it's
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: it's very easy to talk about these issues and sort
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: of theoretical terms, but every every victims circumstances can be
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: different and indeed are different, and so it's really important
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: when we we talk about these issues too, to understand
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: them on an individual's basis. It's very similar, for uh,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: for situations when we talk about spousal abuse. We can
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: talk about spousal abuse and sort of broad terms, but
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: I think we all intrinsically understand that every person's marriage
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: is a little bit different, and it's important for us
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: to understand them on an individual basis. It's the same
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: is true for trafficking victims and survivors and their trafficking experiences.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: We can talk about them broadly, we can talk about
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: the characteristics of what grooming looks like things of that nature,
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: but it's really important to understand the specifics of those
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: cases and handle those specific cases on a case by
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: case basis.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: See, I had always put grooming with people who groom
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: like ot of files things like that, who groom kids
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: to grow up and do things. Until I read your
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: book and read about I called it recruiting. But it's
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: you're right, it's grooming. They kind of used the same playbook.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: It's different, but the same playbook. They found what that
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: person wanted and needed and craved kind of.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Engage a little absolutely.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: I mean I think, I think you know, pimps would say,
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: if you know all all it takes is to find
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: what somebody wants, and once you know that, you can
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: you can use that to your advantage to exploit someone.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now in your book you go into detail, so
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: I don't want to go into a lot of it,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: but just overall a quick way, how would you describe
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Angela's daily life.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: During her during her trafficking experience trafficking again, I don't,
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: I'm hesitant to to speak for her, but uh, I
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: would say the book describes that she was, you know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: very isolated, and very much expected to to either be
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: preparing to work or working. That that was sort of
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: the only two states that she was allowed to be in.
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: She would make large sums of money but not be
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: able to hold on to it. That would go to
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: her trafficker. And she was expected to have, you know,
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: multiple encounters with with John's, you know, on a daily basis.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: See, I don't know why that you would think I
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: would have known this, but I didn't realize. I had
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: this misconception that if you had a pimp, that meant
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you got more of the money, like it was like
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: a fifty to fifty partnership. Reading her book, I learned, no,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: they it was trafficking. I had until I read your book,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: I had never put pimp with traffickers. I had never
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: brought that two together. I had thought traffickers was somebody
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: who gets kidnapped off the street and brought into the
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: sex trade.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Sadly, that is what I think a lot of people think.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: Uh, And I think I think that's the case for
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: a number of reasons, in part because pimps have been
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: a pop cultural phenomenon before we understood what trafficking was.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: But not I should be clear pims are traffickers. Pms
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: are not looking to have partnerships with anybody. They are
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: looking to make money off of someone.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like I said, once again, I learned I was
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: very naive. Now what factors do you think contributed to
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Angela's decision to get away from Mali, to.
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: Get away from well, from uh or just well Molly specifically?
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: Molly started to get some some law enforcement heat, so
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: that that drew her away from his network.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: But she in question while yeah, and got hooked up
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: with a.
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: With another pimp who who brutally beat her, and it
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: was that that beating that.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Led her to leave the life.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, so see, and this is why I'm reading it
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: a third time, because I think I had the two
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna just call them jerks.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: The two jerks flipped.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: I was thinking the other one was the one who
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: had the legal heat, and she flipped to Molly. I
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: was thinking he was the one who did the brutal beating.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: So I had them backwards. So yeah, how do you
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: think she was able to get the courage to leave?
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Because reading her story, I don't know if I had
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: been beaten down that much and had been through that
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: for so long, how you dig deep inside and fire
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: and that courage. What do you think that was or
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: did she mention to you what it was that gave
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: her that?
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: Well? I think I think oftentimes when we are put
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: in really dire circumstances, it's a chance to reflect on
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: our lives. And certainly Angela is a is a deep
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: thinker and as we've discussed, quite an amazing individual.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: And I think those two factors. I think.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: Her leaving the life can be explained in part by
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: her own strong spirit colliding with a dire circumstance. I'm
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: sure there were other factors as well, but again I
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: don't want to speak for her, but but that's that's my.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: That would be my read of the situation.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Now, can you shed light on law enforcement and how
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: law enforcement it in Las Vegas handled trafficking, pens the
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: sex industry.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: Well, So we've talked a lot about Angela, and Angela
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: is certainly the primary subject of the book, but close
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: behind her is another subject that is very vital to
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: the book, and that's that's Don Hoyer. And he's a
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: retired by sergeant and he's someone that I spent a
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: long time with and got to know very well, first
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: of my time at the newspaper and then subsequently working on.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: The book, and he he was able to.
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: You know, really enlighten me about, you know, how law
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: enforcement approaches this issue. And the first thing I would say,
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: when we talk about you know, law enforcement and there
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: and then the way they address sex trafficking, I apologize
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: is is that there, you know, really are are two
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: flavors of people in law forcement, people who know this
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: issue and people who don't. And and and it's really
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: important to uh, you know, to to start off with
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: that that sort of differentiation.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: My impression, uh in working with Don is that he
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: worked on the vice team in Las Vegas, and the
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: people on his team that he worked with were largely,
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: you know, very knowledgeable about this issue and very compassionate
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: about this issue because they had studied it, because they
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: had interacted with people whose survivors things of that nature.
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: On the other hand, you know, police departments are large organizations,
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: big bureaucracies, and there are people in those bureaucracies that
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: aren't as educated on this topic as the people who
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: specialize in it. And and particularly when you're in a
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: community like Vegas where sex trafficking is so rampant. It happens,
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: you know, so frequently, particularly on the strip. You know,
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: law enforcement officers can come in contact with this this
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: subculture you know frequently, but won't be as educated on
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: this topic in the way that the that the trained
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: vice officers are and that that can have some detrimental
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: impacts in terms of the if victims are not treated appropriately,
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: that can make them hesitant to work with police when
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: they are ready to leave the life and perhaps you know,
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: come out against their pim.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, And I wasn't sure how to pronounce
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: his last name, and I talked to produce a car
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: about it. But down he he was just I mean,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: he was like a hero to me. With reading you know,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: everything he tried to do, and I mean everybody needs
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: to read it because I could probably ask a thousand
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: questions about him and about everything he saw there. But
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: I want to know, how do you think law enforcement
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: deals with and even you know, down the ethical and
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: the moral dilemma presented in law enforcement here you want
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: to have empathy and compassion for them, but yet they're
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: breaking the law. How do you think he and his
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: team was able to do that?
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: Well? It is difficult, and I think it can be.
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: It can be, you know, very you know, very hard
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: at times. What's important to understand is that it's very
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: difficult to build cases against against traffickers. And and that's
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: because typically juries only expect or or or expect victims
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: to testify against against their pems. As you might imagine,
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: many victims afraid to do so. The only other way
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: to build a case against a pimp is through circumstantial evidence,
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: and a critical portion of circumstantial evidence against a pimp
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: is there associations with known prostitutes. The only way that
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: you can establish that someone is a known prostitute is
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: by is by police picking them up and arresting them. Now,
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: of course that sounds horrifying, the notion that someone that
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: we know as a victim is being arrested, right, And
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: that's something that I struggled with with understanding. And this
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: is this is Don's perspective on this, that arrests handled
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: appropriately handled with respect and compassion do two things. The
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: first is that they begin to open up a relationship
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: back and forth with police that maybe someday can flower
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: into a stronger relationship where the where the victim feels
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: comfortable coming to that officer and saying, you know, I'm
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: ready to get out of this lifestyle. Let me tell
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: you about the pimp that I've been working for. That's
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: one component of of what a compassionately handled arrest can
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: look like. The other component, again from from from Don's perspective, UH,
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: is that is that arrests, even if they're you know,
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: like maybe for you know.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: You know, in a day or you know not you know.
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: Not substantially long, but longer than just a passing through
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: the uh right, the station gives gives the victim some
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: time away from their pem.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: And that time away is.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Valuable because the victim doesn't have the pimp in their
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: ear filling them up with with manipulation, with brainwashing, and
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: it gives them time to think about the situation that
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: they're in, and that's space can begin to break the
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: invisible chains that pimps have on the women they're exploiting.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: I found similarities to that in domestic violence victims because
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: they will have arrest you know, the husband or that
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: significant other. It gives that person time to be away
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: from them and to think as well, Now, something that
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: just struck my mind. Did the pimps, or did you
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: run across where they victimized the person because they got arrested?
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Did they see that it was their fault?
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: And well, I would say that it's not unusual, as
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: I understand it, for pimps to.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: Say to a woman in their stable after they've come
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: out of an arrest situation that you know, you have
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: more money to make now were you were you were
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: you were locked up, or maybe you have bills to pay,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: you know, legal fees, you know, things of that nature.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: So uh, pimps can uh, you know, pressure women after
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: an arrest to make more money.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Sorry, my dogs just decided to go crazy in the background.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: But so they just wanted them to make up the money.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know why.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: It just hit my brain that My thought was, oh,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: did they tell on me? That was my first thought,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: or they turn an evidence on me. I guess they
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: didn't think of that.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Well, I would say, I'm not your dogs here. I
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: would say that pimps are are master manipulators, and many
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: of them feel very confident that they have sufficiently brainwashed
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: the UH people that they are exploiting to not speak
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: about them at all. So I don't know that that
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: would be their first concern, although it could be I
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: think given that they tend to be pretty financially driven,
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: they're about their first concern is going to be.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: You know, you weren't working for X number of hours.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: Or days we need, so you owe me that. Now,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: when you were investigating this, did you face any legal
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: intimidation or anything from people, any pimps or people in
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: that world?
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: Nothing overt nothing that I can speak to you. You
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: can never truly understand what what people mean by things
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: that they say or right to you.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: But I never I never directly felt threatened.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: No, Okay, but in the windows. I mean they happen.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: We see that happen in some things, and you never
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: know well.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: And you don't know, And I think that's.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: You can be reading into it or can be traumatizing it.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: It's it's hard to know what.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: You know what people's uh you could mean by it,
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: you know you, like you said, you could read it
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: into something and so I can't say that anything that
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: that made me directly feel threatened. No.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: What to date has been the most surprising reaction to
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: your book. I mean, whether it be from public who's
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: read it, or from what Angela or down or people
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: you know that you wrote about in the book.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: I've been very gratified that the people have got it,
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: that they've they've understood the intent of the book, which
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: was to educate and to help people better understand the
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: the nuances and textures of this issue. I was, you know, candidly,
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: I was afraid that, you know, maybe people wouldn't grasp
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: that and and maybe maybe grip more to the the
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: sensational aspects of the story more dismiss it. I mean,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: I will say I did hear from from someone I
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: know who sort of dismissed the book and said, well,
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: you know, you know, women have had sex for benefits
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: for years. I don't really understand the purpose of what
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: you're talking about here, but I'm very very proud to
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: say that, you know that that sort of dismissive response
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: has been in the in the minority, severe minority good.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: Most people have, I think, understood this approach it with
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: the seriousness that it deserves, and have come away, as
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: you did, with deep compassion for the trauma and victimization
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: that people like Angela have endured.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the revictimization of those individuals is just
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I came and put words to it now talk about
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: that how can average people like me help identify because
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: trafficking happens in more than just with pens, but it
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: can happen. I heard a story not too long ago
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: that it was the woman's husband. They had been married,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: they got into a situation they needed money. He turned
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: her out and her neighbors didn't know she was still
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: going to PTA. But what resources or how can the
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: average people like me help identify that someone could possibly
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: be in that situation.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: It can be difficult, and it requires us to be
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: aware of the people in our orbit and the things
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: that they're doing. I mean, I think it's it's it
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: can be very very difficult as it relates to strangers
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: that you might see on the street corner or walking
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: through a mall or a casino to one hundred percent
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: know if someone is being is being trafficked or not.
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: But we have a better chance of potentially identifying red
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: flags for the people in our lives. And one way
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: to do that is to look for Uh. We have
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: a section in.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: The back of the book where we talk about some
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: red flags.
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: You know, one potential red flag is someone showing up
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: with luxury goods that they previously you know, didn't have
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: and they haven't gotten a new job.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: That you're aware of.
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: That's one, you know, one potential sign because it could
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: be a pimp rooming that person or or already you know,
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: already started the the trafficking relationship and sort of giving
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: gifts to to solidify that. Of course, you know, bruises, uh,
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: you know, signs of violence can be potentially signs of trafficking.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: Being on call, being at someone's beck and call particular
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: person's beck and call it at all hours of the
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: day and night is a potential sign. Not Having access
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: to critical personal identifying documents. It's sorry, it's very common
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: for traffickers to take from their victims their birth certificates,
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: their driver's licenses, things of that nature, so they can't
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: leave their control. And so if you know someone who
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: doesn't have access to their own driver's license, of their
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: own birth certificates, that could be a red flag in
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: the context of all these other things that we're talking about.
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: It again, it's not it's not like you see one thing, Okay,
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: this person's being trafficked. You sort of have to to
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: see all of these different things together.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Well, but talking about that, reading those red flags, takeing documents.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: That also is a sign for domestic violence because of
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: the control they take it so and we all the
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: time on this show say, if you suspect something, don't
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: worry about looking like a fool.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: I would rather look like a fool than be sorry later.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think you know another thing that we
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: can all do is just simply be compassionate to the
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: people in our lives and to be you know, to
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: have real connection with them. It's very easy to sort
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: of be a surface level with everybody and to not
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: really engage with them. But I think it really can
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: matter when we reach out to people and show them
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: that we care. Oftentimes victims of domestic sex trafficking feel isolated,
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: feel alone, feel like no one else cares about them,
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: and indeed feel like the only person who does care
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: about them is there. And if we as a society
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: can become more compassionate, it can become more more aware
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: of each other and more caring, more humane to each other.
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: That can begin to undercut the manipulations of a trafficker.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, in my thoughts, it would kind of cut
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: them off at the knees if we show that compassion
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: and we'll be there because the way I see it,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: they're grooming them so that they think they are the
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: only piece bole that care. And if other peoples show
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: that they care, you're kind of taking away their control
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: and their power.
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: In my vision, No, you're You're absolutely correct. And I think.
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: And one of the sad things about working on this
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: book was how it made me so disappointed in our culture.
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: We are a very isolated, siloed culture at this point.
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: You know, in twenty twenty five, we don't care about
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: our neighbors. We don't care about the people we interact with.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: And I think that sort of disregard.
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: Leaves us all vulnerable to exploitation, whether it be sex,
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: shopping or other kind of exploitation.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: I does, I mean absolutely, And I think of thinking
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: of Vegas. You know, friends that I know go there,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: and I asked them what was your favorite part? And
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: to hear people tell me, oh, I love just sitting
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: at the restaurants and watching the people go by and
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: people watching. And after reading your book, I have a
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: friend that just came back. I said, did you see
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: anything that made you want to get up and say?
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Hey, do you need help? Do you need.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Anything, and she was like no, And I was like,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: because you're just sitting there not watching. Because now that
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: I think back the things that I saw there after
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: reading your book, I was like, wow, I should have
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: but I didn't know. And from my point of view,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: I hope that's what people will get when they read
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: your book, is to start looking at things and get
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: out of your own little when you're out and look
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: at what's happening right in front of you.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean the the voyeuristic nature of Vegas is desensitizing,
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: and I think that desensitization please right in the hands
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: of traffickers.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: It does. Well.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: I know we've been talking for quite a while. I
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: know we've had some questions. Please see what we've got,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: so if I can figure out how to see the
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: questions will be Lady and Gray says, how prevalent are
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: victims who are not runaways or kidnapped victims in simply
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: easy targets due to past trauma.
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: That's a very difficult question to answer. I can tell
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: you that kidnapped victims is not the most common thing
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: that we're seeing here. Runaways and easy talk target targets
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: due to pass trauma. In my mind are the same thing,
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: and that's going to be the more common thing as
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: I understand it. Again, I want to clarify that, you know,
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: this is obviously illegal activity. There's not like their census
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: is being tone of this. Ye.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: So it's hard to get data.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: It's virtually impossible to get data.
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: And so you know, we're piecing this together as we go,
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: and you might note that I, you know, I do
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: measure my words very carefully. And the reason why I
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: do that is because there are people who are skeptical
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: of sex trafficking, and I don't want to give those
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: people any ammunition to to dismiss this plight on our society.
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: So it's my belief that by speaking carefully and measuring
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: my words carefully, that I am eliminating or at least
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: attempting to eliminate any any criticism. Uh, as it relates
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: to the legitimacy of this issue.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: No, it's not.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: See. So, how has social media affected trafficking.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: Hugely? Hugely?
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: That's a that's a various dude question. Social media is
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: a is a is a common tool the traffickers use
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: to recruit victims, and it's a social media has made
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: it easier for pimps and other traffickers to find people
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: to exploit. Used to be you know, in the beforetime,
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: before the Internet.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: And social media. Traffickers typically, as.
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: I understood it, only found their victims through personal contact.
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: Now you hop on the web, hop on Instagram, hop
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: on Twitter, and find people that you can exploit. Much
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: like you know, scams are exploiting us through social media
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: and other forms of digital connection. It is a huge problem.
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: It is something that our children are in danger of
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: by being on the Internet. Do they fear the tracking
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: of it? Do traffickers for the tracking of it? I
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: haven't gotten that impression at all. My impression is that
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: they are giddy about social media because it allows them
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: to survey a larger population.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Say, it opens up their prospect pool. Oh, the thought
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: of that just gave me chills. That just yeah. So
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Lady and Gray said, did you find a lot of
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: underage victims or they largely late teens to twenties?
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: So my reporting for this book for the most part
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: focused on the dooms who are are of age. I
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: think I have The book does mention some previous reporting
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: I did for the paper on on under I got
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: to choose my words carefully. People under age who engage
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: in prostitution are being trafficked.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: Uh, it is horrifying to see uh, children, people who
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: are who are unable to you know, consent to sexual
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: behavior being exploited in this way. And it is sadly,
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: you know, much more common than I think people realize.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the scary thing. I agree.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: I think it's way more common than any of us
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: really want to think, you know, because that's hard to think.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: I have to ask because as a person you know
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: who wants to you know, become a PI. I know
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: there's people out there who want to become investigative journalist.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Do you have any tips, advice or would you tell them?
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Why would do it?
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: Investigative reporting is, in my opinion, the most gratifying and
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: meaningful work that you can do. I will separate, however,
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: the work from the business and the business of journalism
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: of course, is struggling mightily right now.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: There.
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: It's just it's very hard to do to do long
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: term investigative work and support your family.
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: And so if you have.
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: Deep pockets, I'd say go for it. If you don't,
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: I would recommend you know doing this in conjunction with
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: something else that.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: Pays the bills.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: And do you think that's because we've become an instant
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: society wet DNA testing. You take the DNA, You've got
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: it tomorrow, because you know, CSI investigative journalism to investigate,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: take the time, talk to sources, do the work. It's
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of work, a lot of hours, days, weeks, months, years,
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: and you don't get paid till you're done at the end.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: Right Well, that's in books, that's certainly the case. I
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: mean in news organizations, you know, you'll have a you know,
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: a salary, but you know, news organizations are squeeze right now,
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: and it's very difficult to justify for a news organization
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: to have on staff a reporter who hasn't done anything
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: for hasn't had anything in the paper for six months
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: or a year. I mean, that's very hard to justify
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: when when the profit margins are down as much as
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: they are and they're under so much pressure, especially when
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: you consider, you know, the kind of resources that investigative
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: reporting you know, can require, you know, in documents that
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: can cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars, you know, travel,
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: other things of that nature. It becomes a lot harder
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: to justify for news organizations. You know what I would
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: call true investigative reporting. Oh maybe it's true, is it
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: the right Maybe that's not the right word. There could
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: be true investiative reporting that's more short term, but really
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: deep long investigative reporting.
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: It's harder and harder to do.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I I mean, I know we're in a
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: virtual society, but there is still something about traveling somewhere
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: and talking to somebody face to face.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: It you'll get information. I mean, it's just different.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: I would I would absolutely argue that.
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: It's very difficult to do this kind of work and
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: not have at least some face to face contact.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, what's next for you? Are you working on
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: another book? Are you?
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: That's a that's a great question.
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: The honest answer is that I don't know. I love journalism.
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: I would love to continue in journalism. This has been
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: a very hard road for for me and my family,
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: and we've you know, we we uh, you.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: Know, largely you know, funded this project out of our
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: own pocket.
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: So you know, I'm freelancing right now, trying to look
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: around for for what's next for myself.
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I would love to find a you know,
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: some sort.
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: Of situation, whether it be a newsroom or or a
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: university setting where I could teach and do freelance journalism,
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: where where you know, I would feel comfortable and feel
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: I feel like I fit.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I have a lot of stories that
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: I would like to tell in this.
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: As it relates to trafficking, as it relates to justice issues,
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: as it relates to other issues in general. You know,
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: it's uh, the reality of the media marketplace today is
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: you know, I don't I don't know what's next. It
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: really is going to depend on you know, what opportunities
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: I can find.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: But to answer your but to directly answer your question, yes,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: I would love to continue reporting on this issue. I
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: have lots of ideas about it, and I would you know,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: if there's some you know, patron out there that would
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: like to you know, see that, see that happen, you know,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: that would be wonderful.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: If we have any multi billionaires out there, you just
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: have money to spend.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, because I do think it's going I think.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Sex trafficking is just going to get worse as technology
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: continues to grow. I think it's going to get worse now.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: But I think you did a great job writing this book.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: So have you ever thought of writing fiction with some
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: of your stories?
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: I do have an idea for a fictionalized television series
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: that would address some issues for sex trafficking. You know,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: you know candidly, you know that's a new world for me.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: I am still, you know, kind of learning about what
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: that might involve.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: Well. And also, if anyone knows anybody from Law and Order,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: I mean SVU, all I could think about is I
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: could hear Olivia Benson in my head. I mean, I
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: think you need to write a script or two for them,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: so anybody know personally.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: You know, it's funny that you say that.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: I believe that, you know, the mark of a truly
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: influential piece of journalism on criminal justice issues is when
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: it appears in some form in a Law and Order episode, I.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Because people watch it.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's how I wound up in true crime.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: My mom got me into Law and Order many many
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: years ago, and look at me today. Well, I want
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: to thank you so much for joining us tonight and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: for sharing you know, your insight. I want to tell everybody, yes,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: anybody watches us nose I'm a big reader. I'm you know,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I set a goal every year how many books to read?
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: This year my goal, I had to back it down
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: a little bit, but my goal this year's three hundred
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: and fifty books. And I can do that if I
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: don't read books two or three times.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: Oh man, I'm causing your problem.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but no, it's good because I am learning
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: so much, and it's good because I also want to
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: get my PI license. Sex trafficking would be part of
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: that kind of work. So it's been great. But like
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: I said, it was eye opening, and I also like
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: that it brings awareness to something, and I'm hoping it
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: will educate people to turn the light bulb on for
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: even me, who knew stuff about prostitution because of my
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: previous world. I never associated prostitution with sex trafficking until
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: your book. So I thank you for turning that light
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: bulb on for me, because I still didn't until.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: Now I have a better understanding of it.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: So I I personally say thank you for it and
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: appreciate your courage.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: I thank you for that, But but really, the the
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: people who deserve all the credit or this, or Ora
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: Angela and don they're there, their courage for speaking out
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: when so many people in their situation would have chosen
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: a different path. It's it's because of them that this
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: book was able to be completed and and any success
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: this book had has is a credit to them.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: But also thank you to your family, because even with
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: just a podcast, I mean, families give up a lot
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: for people to do these kind of things. I know
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: my family does for me to do investigative work that
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: I do on a missing person case. So also thanks
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: to them, because like you said, it's it takes a
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: toll on the family.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: It does.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: And I am I am deeply grateful to my wife
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: and my parents for their for their support this project.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just want to tell everybody go out
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: and grab it.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: Trust me, you will be glad you did.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: And I love that you gave resources in the back.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: I love the term you know, you give the glossary
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: of what things mean. I mean, you truly did all
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: that stuff because I read some books and I have
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: to keep Google up so I can go Google to
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: see what something means. I appreciated you going that extra
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: step so I didn't have to do that.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: I thought it was really important to, you know, publish
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: as much of what we learned, because this is such
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: a misunderstood area of our society and frankly, I just
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: haven't found any succinct one stop shop for all these
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: different ideas, and so I don't know that there'll ever
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: be one one stop shop, but we tried to at
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 4: least create a place for people to begin to understand
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: this issue in a deep and texture way.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: Well, like I said, thank you, And if you still
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: keep in touch with Angela, I mean, just please tell
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: me about the courage that I mean. She is somebody
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: that I would just want to meet and give a
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: hug too, and just I I don't know, I just
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: what she has come through and where she's at today
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: just makes me say you can truly overcome anything.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, she is an inspiration to us all and I'm
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: fond of saying that, you know, she is the heart
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: of Vegas Concierge, but don you know is the conscience
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: and he is He is also unequally you know, courageous
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: individual and an amazing individual as well.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: He is I mean, because I mean, like I said,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: I don't give too much weight because I want people
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: to go and read the book. And I've been told
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: before when we interview authors, they're like, well, we didn't
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: need to read the book, you got it all. No,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: we're not giving you all the answers this time, but
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: I do. I want to say thank you. I want
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: to say thank you to people who are watching. People
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: who watch later remember to like you know this video.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: I am also going to ask you to share the
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: link for the website that we put up in the chat.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: It's also in the description of the live stream. We
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: need more people to read Vegas Concierge so they can
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: get educated.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: So I want people.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: To think about it as I learned the most amazing
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: thing today, and I want to share it with others
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: because the more people who read it, we can maybe
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: make an impact and make a difference. Because it's not
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: happening in just Vegas. It's happening everywhere. So that is
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: what I'm going to ask people to do. So don't
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: just share, you know, the thought about it, but I
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: want you to actually go out and share it. It's
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: a hard topic to talk about, but it's a topic
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: that we need to talk about. So thank you again,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: thank you to everyone that watched, and real quick, don't
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: forget JT and I have an in person live show
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: at Hamilton Pool Vineyards and Farms in May. Here in
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Dripping Springs, Texas. I shouldn't say here because I'm in Austin,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: but we'll be covering the Austin Yogurt shop murders and
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: it's a case that we'll make your head spin. So definitely,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: if you're in the area, you want to purchase tickets.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: Next week on True Crime and Wine Time, we are
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: covering a case that is still haunting me and I
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: might slat JT for bringing it to our attention and saying.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: We needed to do it. It's when the axe Man
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: comes a New Orleans nightmare. Guys, do we need to
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: make New Orleans anymore hunting? Okay, but we're going to
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: Also if you have any cases, authors, books that you've
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: read about subjects that you think are of interest to
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: us and our audience, please email Tara at tcwtmedia dot
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: com because.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: We want to look into it. Bring it on the show,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: and as we sign off, always, guys, please stay safe
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: and speak up if you see something.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: Don't be worried about making a fool of yourself.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Just speak up and as you know me, enjoy your
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: wide time. So until next time, guys, see you soon,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: and we're going to see if it works this time
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: and not kills us all