Latest / Learnings and Missteps by Depth Builder / Craig Gauvreau on Transforming Safety Culture through Leadership

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Craig Gauvreau on Transforming Safety Culture through Leadership · Learnings and Missteps by Depth Builder

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Safety is not about rules and injury rates.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: It's about making it personal.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: There's no such thing as zero risk, so you've got to manage it to the point where you can deal with it.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: The way I categorize it is there's the safety professionals that are compliance focused yeah, and then there's the minority, the super tiny, teeny tiny number of safety professionals that are people focused.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: If you're going to be compliance focused, you're always going to be in the passenger seat on influencing the culture, because you're going to be the one getting influenced, versus in the driver's seat and influencing the work environment as a safety professional you have.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I believe you have the ultimate platform to influence the business, to influence the leaders in their way they think and the decisions that they make in supporting the people, and you have a direct, no holds barred access to every level of the organization.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: What is going on?
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: L&m family?
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I'm a pretty fortunate guy and that fortune I get to share with the family here I'm getting to introduce to you and learn more about Mr Craig, international safety superstar.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, I connected with Craig on the LinkedIn.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: He posts a really thought-provoking, straight-up, real perspective about safety and, more importantly, about human beings, which is what, of course, sparked me to say, hey, I need to reach out to this man and see what we can do.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: He's the founder of Keep Safe Consulting.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: He served in the Canadian Army, so he's no slouch.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: He's another baller we got we're lucky here, we got ballers on the show all the time.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Studied at the University of Alberta, published author.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: He published Influence.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: It's Leadership and Safety at the Sharp End.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: There it is, yes, and I got questions about that title because I love it.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I think it kind of reminded me of the Depth Builder logo here and if this is your first time here, you are listening to the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to see how real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I'm Jesse and we are going to get to know Mr Craig.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Mr Craig, how are you doing good?
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Sir, I'm doing good.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: So, before we hit record, you kind of spilled the beans.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: You're in the hotels.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: You're a road warrior traveling all over Canada, I'm assuming, mostly.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Western Canada.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Lately it's been Alberta.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: That's big enough, right.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: That's plenty big, I think.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Being from the States, it's hard for me to understand how big it is, except now I've got super cool friends in Canada.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Alberta's like.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: It's like Canada's Texas, ah there we go, it's all of oil and gas and it's a big province.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: I drove up here to Fort Saskatchewan, north of Edmonton.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: It's, I think, 680 kilometers from my home, so 300 miles.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's a nice drive and you drove up that way.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I drove this time I did my vehicle for the job set Matt.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I appreciate you making the time to squeeze us in.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: I got a softball of a question.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Craig Sure, how do you define safety?
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a tough one.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: That shouldn't be tough, right?
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: You're just managing risk Instead of saying, ah, no injuries, that's a given, but safety is just managing the risk.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it, really, that's it Okay.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: So when we hear risk, my, my brain says exposure, like people exposing their bodies, their limbs, their eyes to damage, and so safety is minimizing that exposure.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: yeah exposure is part of it.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: The longer you're exposed, your chances of having something go wrong right there it increases the risk.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, got it got, and so I mentioned that you served in the Canadian Army.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I also know that you did some mountaineering.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Did you do that when you were in the Army?
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: In the Army?
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: yeah, it's kind of how I got into the safety role.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I was a soldier, so I was in the infantry.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: When I left the Army I was a sergeant an infantry sergeant and the last couple of years in the summers I was a mountaineering instructor.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: We got the Rockies right out our back door.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: We did a lot of that.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: And when I left the Army one of the things I started doing was teaching high-angle rescue and confined space entry rope, technical rescue stuff in gas plants and refineries.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: So I kind of got into the safety field through training.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, so and so what's mountaineering?
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Because my simple mind says I crawled up a mountain one day, so I was doing mountaineering.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: But it's probably not that simple.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: There's some more complexities to it.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: We were doing rock face climbing and we did cut it quite a few rescues of people that got into bad positions where they didn't know how to get out of.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: So we did a lot of ice work and crevasse rescue and stuff like that.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, so in the rescue, that wasn't like you jumping on a walkie-talkie and calling in a helicopter.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: What all do you do as a mountaineer when you're rescuing somebody?
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Because that sounds like intense, amazing and also maybe scary.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, potentially scary.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're rappelling down on a rope line to somebody who's either fallen or they're stuck on a mountain where they oh, this is too hard now I don't know what to do, so rappel down on ropes and then sometimes haul them back up or keep going down, lowering them down Crevasse rescue, you're pulling them out of there.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: You've got two sheets of ice and they're in the middle here and you're going down to get them.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's quite a deal.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can only imagine it's all technical stuff, if you think of the movie Cliffhanger, that stuff.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay With Stallone that was a good one.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, with Stallone, that was a good one.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: You were doing that in the Canadian Army and then you got into training for confined space entry and rescue Yep Because of the connection between the skill set you built in.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Mountaineer.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: It was so transferable.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: It was all knots and ropes and carabiners and harnesses.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: You're exposed to height.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: In a commercial setting it might be a window washer on a skyscraper.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: You got to go get them because he's in a tough spot.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man, I bet that guy wasn't happy if he was stuck.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I've never been in it, okay.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: So then my guess is this Mr Craig, mr Young Teenage did not decide he was going to be a published author and run his own safety consulting firm.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: It just kind of happened.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Is that accurate?
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fair statement.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, okay.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: So what was originally when you were mapping out your life through high school and post high school?
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: What was the plan?
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: What direction were you headed?
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I for some reason always had an interest in the army, in the military.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: My parents were both in the Air Force.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: That's how they met, so there was a bit of a connection there.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: And I met my wife when I was in the army and I was going to be a lifer.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I was going to be a soldier right to the end, but then I became a dad.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: So that kind of changed things Got it.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: I was in my late 20s almost 30, when I decided I was going to make a change.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: We had two little kids at the time and I thought you know, my kids didn't even like talking to me if they saw me packing away my stuff.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Because, back then when I packed up my gear to go.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: I was gone for months, ah.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: So they let you know like we don't like it that you're leaving us, like just go away, be gone, do it again yeah.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: I thought I would try and make a change while I was young enough to do it.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: I tried a couple of things that didn't pan out, because I assume the military is like this anywhere you go in as a young kid and it's a lifestyle, not a job.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: So, transitioning out, the military is really good at bringing young people in, molding them, and they're not so good at sending them the other way, which, of course, is why we have so many problems with our vets both in the us and canada, all over the world right yes, yes, yes, yes, like re-entry into civilian life is not yeah.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: So the first couple things you try, it doesn't work out.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: And then a guy I knew was looking for an instructor for high angle rescue.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: He knew I was looking for something and that's kind of how it connected, yeah yeah.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: So what was that like?
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Getting out of the military?
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Pretty structured, pretty clear chain of command, pretty clear expectations.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming I've never been in the military coming into civilian life.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Was that shocking?
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: I was scared for sure, because not only do you have all that structure, you're pretty protected too, right, you know.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: You know what you got to do, you know.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if it was shocking it was, it was different.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: You heard that phrase beat 50 of the people, but just showing up, well, you probably beat 80 of them if you show up on time.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: And, of course, in the army, hey, you better be on time, right, yeah, yeah.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: So, and I heard this the other day and it was, it was brilliant.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Do you know?
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Jocko welling Willinkas?
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: But before we go there we're going to do the L&M family member shout out, and this one goes to Mr Angel, who I got to meet as a construction management student at UTSA, did a little shindig over there with my mentor and friend, mike Hyman.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Angel says this he said this event helped me realize and remember how important it is to allow others to critically think for themselves rather than clipping their wings, as you said.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: We can wonder why we are not soaring with the eagles and surrounded with turkeys when we become the solutionizer, as a leader that is always giving unsolicited advice and solutions to every problem.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Angel, I'm glad that stuck with you, because it was a problem I had for most of my career never giving my people the space to leverage their autonomy, their agency and their critical thinking, because I was always giving them answers.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: So folks give Mr Angel a shout out and also, when you get a chance, leave a comment.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Leave a five-star review or a three-star review, whichever makes most sense to you, but when you leave me the comments, that's the ultimate, because then I get to shout you out and I actually know that somebody is listening just besides me.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: So he had a phrase there where he said discipline equals freedom, right, yep?
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: And I think that's a good way to deal with when you come out of the structure of the army, because the discipline gives you the flexibility to do what you need to do.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: It allows you to try stuff and we've done some stuff, so you got a little bit of courage as well.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: You know, to try stuff you haven't done.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I think that's a perfect fitting.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Discipline equals freedom, yeah.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: And the phrase is a little counterintuitive, right?
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sometimes, discipline being this rigid, how should say caste situation, yeah, but it's really not no, no it's?
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: It sets the conditions to be free and grow and learn and experiment and try.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish I knew that back in my 20s.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Oh right, I'm glad I didn't have an ip iPhone in the internet when I was 20.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: So, speaking of the iPhones in the internet, I mentioned it at the introduction that you and I connected via LinkedIn.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: What was that like?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: What led you to begin posting and engaging on social media?
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, going back to that idea of discipline equals freedom.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: I was surprised I could get up and give a speech, presentation, training, and when I went to write my book I felt I had some imposter syndrome.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Right, the only way to get over that is to get doing it and do more of it, because I know I really believe what I've been posting, because it challenges the status quo a little bit.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: So it's one thing to get up in front of a group of people and speak, but you start posting and putting it out there and it's out there for the world to see and it's out there forever.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: But I was surprised.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: I did not expect.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Where did that imposter syndrome come from?
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Look over here, needle it.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Hey, what if they don't like it?
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And so you just start posting and then you get some people saying, hey, yeah, spot on, thanks for saying this and for bringing it up, and that kind of thing.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And so I want to, as I transition, I do a lot of site work, which is good.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of safety speakers who aren't doing so much site work and they disconnected from their same.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: With writers, they get disconnected from the people they're trying to influence.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Now I do, probably in my business I do.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Probably 80 to 90% of my business revenue is from doing site work out in these construction projects.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Currently my clientele is all oil field industrial construction, is all oil field industrial construction.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: And what I'm hoping to do is with the book and again, why I publish so much on LinkedIn is to start doing leadership workshops for the front line.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: That's kind of my target audience.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: That's why the subtitle in the book is it's Leadership and Safety at the Sharp End, because we've got there's some excellent leadership workshops and stuff out there.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: But their target audience seems to be middle management, upper management and you know what.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: And we often in industry and I think it's in all industries we kind of set people up to fail.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: When we take a guy or a girl who's excellent at their craft, hey, we're going to make that the supervisor Boom, we move them up to the supervisor, give them no training.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: They fail dismally.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: So I want to start doing some of that.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: The book is written as a bit of a hand guide, more than just a lecture or anecdotes and stuff.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: It's got stories in it but it's got exercises in it and so nice.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: My plan is to use that and do some half day or one day workshops and do some follow-up.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: I think that's also a missing link with people that take some leadership workshops, especially new leaders there's no follow-up afterwards.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Some coaching and that was, I think, one of the biggest things I got out of the army was when you take a leadership course and you move off to the back to the unit, there's always somebody coaching you To continue the thread of that learning.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, so I'd like to do some of that and then keep doing some job site work so you stay connected with the audience you're trying to influence and then move them along.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: So when you say site work, what does that look like?
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Right now it's up in the oil and gas installations.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I'm doing some work at a gas plant right now and they're getting ready to drill into a salt cavern and do some cavern storage.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: So instead of having tanks up on the ground, they have these salt caverns that are sealed and they're down 2,000 meters into the ground.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I was working up at another site further north where they take sulfur, which is a byproduct of processing oil and gas.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: They make it so it's safe to transport.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: It's all industrial construction, some of it's new construction, some of it's modifying an existing facility and that kind of thing.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I go up and help out with hazard assessments.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: If there's incidents, we do incident investigations see what actually happened.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I do a lot of coaching.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Instead of doing safety rules, I work with the supervisors.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Rules is part of it, but I work with the supervisors on how to be leaders and make their work site safe, so that you're not just doing checkbox.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got this.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: We've got that hazard assessment stuff, so what surprises or awakenings have you had?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: in working with leaders and helping them understand their responsibility or contributions to the safety mindset.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I think some of the most successful work I've had doing that is changing the mindset of being in charge.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: It's not that you're in charge, as you have people under your charge that you have to take care of and make sure they get home.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: So what's the difference?
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: I love this.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: You're responsible for them.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: One of the first things to do is I do a lot of talk.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: I even have a chapter in the book about saying stop saying safety is number one, because it's not.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, whoa, whoa, oh the horse.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I get a lot of people going what?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: And it's not that you don't want anyone to get hurt, but the company is doing some new construction on an existing facility so they can make more money.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: The contractors got the job so they can make more money, and the workers they do the job so they can pay the rent and fill the mortgage or the freezer.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: And it's okay to say that we're there to make money.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: You got to get past this nonsense of saying safety is number one, because as soon as you say that and schedule's pushed and something goes behind, and then we start eroding that yes, and so I think I have some impact, because a lot of safety people won't say that right, right, oh yeah.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: And when you're the safety guy and you're coming up and you say, stop saying that.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: One of the things I try to say a lot is when you're a leader, you can't talk your way to something you behaved your way into.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: So you've got to get out there and you've got to connect.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: You've got to see what the drivers are with your workers and see what's going on with their head.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Have they got a sick one at home?
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Are they present?
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Right, yep, right, yep.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: So that's what I mean about when they're in your charge.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Your job is to take care of them.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: You don't have to teach them how to be a pipe fitter, a welder, an electrician or a plumber.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: They are already there.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: They're the craftsmen.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Just get out of their way.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Let them get to it.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Break down the barriers so they can get their work done right.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I heard the heard one friend of mine say here's the deal my teams install teams out there, the vehicles on the road and they need to get to where we need to get.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: My job as a manager and leader on the job site is to make sure they have all green lights.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I was like, dude, yes, clear the road for them and let them do it and make sure you're taking care of them.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think for me, like that the idea, because I spent a little bit of time as a safety professional like super small period of time and I asked myself the question of, like, what is safety?
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: How do I define safety?
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Safety, how do I define safety?
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: And I could only come up with it's taking care of people, being responsible for the people in my charge, to use your language right, being responsible for them and to them, to facilitate them doing what they needed to do and not getting hurt or injured or any yeah, like that's a given right.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: You want to make sure everyone gets home and not hurt and there was some jingle in their pocket.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: But those are given Safety.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: It's when you hear it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: It's often no, we've got rules and stuff and we do for sure.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: But it's not about that, it's about the people.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I had a bit of an epiphany.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I was probably an intermediate safety person by now like experience, wise and knowledge and stuff about seven, eight years into my career.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: I've been doing it for god, 26 years.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: But uh, and I started to to not drink the kool-aid.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: I started questioning things like we would focus on injury rates and I always used used to wonder I don't think Bob the Builder cares whether your frequency rate for your injury is 0.1 for 100,000 man hours, but he probably cares about his friend Joe who might get hurt.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: So I stopped drinking the Kool-Aid and a turning point for me was this is going to sound crazy, but I was at the company who made five fatalities one year, right, oh my God.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: These job sites were all really remote, like way out into Northern Alberta, Northern Canada, and they were all single vehicle accidents they were.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: These guys were driving to the work sites or from the work sites on their way home and they were all ejected out of the vehicles.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: They were single vehicle rollovers guys tossed out.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: They either hit something or the vehicle hit something when it was rolling over them.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: And three of them were married and a couple of them had kids.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: So we were on this massive campaign.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: A lot of really hard work went into this.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: We had presentations and we were traveling with directors and VPs of the companies.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: It was a big oil and gas service company.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: As the safety guys we were driving these guys around to the different remote work sites and I was up in an area I think it's called Tommy Lakes.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: So if you picture Alberta and British Columbia on the border and then the Northwest Territories up here, like we're up right here, like a snowball's a throw from the Arctic Circle.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: So we're I was just going to say that sounds really cold.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Oh it was, it was wintertime, we were doing this, and so I get up, we get up there.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: We're supposed to give this presentation.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Have you ever heard the phrase death by PowerPoint?
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you takepoint slides and you print them and you're going to review these with an industrial work crew out on a work site.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: It's not going to go well yeah, like, yeah, whatever, man.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: So it's going to be good for my little camping fire I was asked if I could do the presentation.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: I'm outside the crew truck.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: They had one of them suburban one-time crew trucks and they had a crew truck that would go from the work site to the camp, the industrial camp.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: They were staying in and it was like an ugly winter road.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I wasn't supposed to be doing the presentations, it was the presidents and the vice presidents and directors.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but I get up there and this guy says I hate public speaking.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Can you do this?
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: I didn't even look at the presentation because I wasn't going to be speaking.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Right, right, I'm looking through this PowerPoint.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I'm going through the slides and thinking, oh, these suck, this is terrible.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: And so it's like death by PowerPoint on steroids.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Right, I happened to look to my right at the crew truck.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: There's no one in the truck and the seatbelts are all connected, right, so they're clipped in.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and nobody's in the truck.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Nobody's in the truck.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: So they can get in the truck and they can go where they're going to go.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: They don't have to listen to the dinger of the seatbelt warning right, yeah, okay.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: And they had an ugly winter road.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: There was a ravine on one side and a hill on the other.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: So I just I thought, oh, this is not good.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I tossed the presentation in the trash on my way into the meeting and I asked the guys how many of you guys wear your seatbelt in the crew truck?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I said it's okay.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I said no one's going to be in trouble when I drive from this site down to 50 miles or 80 kilometers to the next site.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: You're going to do what you're going to do anyway, so no one's going to be in trouble.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: I said 15 of you guys are married, 11 of you got kids.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: So I talked about these five guys whose family had to move on.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I said so here's the deal.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: When you're driving down that road back to camp and you slide off the hill into the ravine, you're at minus 30 degrees.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: You're probably going to die.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: I said if you're okay with somebody else raising your kids and and sleeping with your wife, don't put your seatbelt on.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow, yeah.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: So that was an epiphany.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: The reason I say it was an epiphany for me was I had a couple guys go Craig, you're an asshole?
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: I said maybe, but that's the reality of it.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, and he goes.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: No, I said thanks for it.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: I never looked at my safety that way.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I always looked at as a rule and management's telling us this, doing that, and so that's when I started thinking safety's not about rules and injury rates.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: It's about making it personal, like there's no such thing as zero risk.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: So you got to manage it to the point where you can deal with it right yeah, yeah.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: So I imagine when you like it was clear, like it clicked.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: You looked in the truck I said, oh, that's the largest contributing factor.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Here's the reality, if something like they take on the risk.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: So it became very clearly like, oh duh, and then you forget the PowerPoint.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: They can use that paper for something else.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Powerpoint, they could use that paper for something else.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Here's what your decision could create.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Are you okay with that?
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Bam, two by four between the eyes.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: So in the moment you're like, oh, this, I can really connect with people on a human level.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: And then it sounds like from that point you said, okay, from here forward, this is how I'm going to do it Now.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Leading up to that, it was the risk assessments, the box checking, the pre-test, safety plans, whatever all of those words out there.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all the words, yeah, right.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: So all your colleagues were still in that same bucket.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: What was that like?
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Knowing that man, what I?
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: My perspective is totally different than what we've been taught, than what we've studied, than what the corporations are completely bought into.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: What was going through your head?
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Did you see friction in?
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: your future.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, my boss, at the time, like I said, this was a time when I wasn't so much a novice, I was kind of an intermediate.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: But you're right at that point where you start to question things like does this add value?
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: So I would ask questions like they'd come up with an initiative.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: For example, I would say things like does this make it better for the guy out on the tools?
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Hmm, oh, you're being difficult.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: No, no, I want to know.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Right, no-transcript.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: These guys did good.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: They didn't break nothing.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: The ruts from the tires are like up to my knees.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: It's impressive that they could do this.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: So they were busy when I, when I got there, I introduced myself to the supervisor and I said, well, I'll go do a couple of things I got to do and maybe we could talk to the crew afterward.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: It was funny, you remember, in those situations where the mud's picking up on your boots and your boots are getting heavier and heavier.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: I was walking between the two buildings and there was a cable going from one to the other like a bonding cable, tried to step over it and my boot hit it and I thought, oh, here we go, I'm gonna fall into the mud and the safety guy's got a face full of mud.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: But when my boot hit the cable it came out of the connection.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: So I thought, oh, oh.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: So I I went around and checked all the connections and I went to the supervisor.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: And this supervisor, he was your quintessential tough, not oil field or construction guy, like whatever's in here is coming out here and there's no filter and it's going to have a few expletives.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: So I asked him.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I said, hey, I can go and fix the connections.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: The bonding connections are all loose.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: You guys are busy.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'll tighten them.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: And he looks at me like what I.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Actions are all loose, you guys are busy, I'll tighten them.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: And he looks at me like what I said?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I can't find the wrench, so I need to.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I'll tighten them up, can you get?
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: rid.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you were asking him for a wrench and he's like what the hell?
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And then I said look, when we have the meeting with the crew, let's talk about static electricity, because we just had a fire on another site where static electricity ignited the rig tanks on a drilling rig.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: The crew had put it out but still it was static electricity that started.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: And I said you guys are pulling pipe out of the well, that's important, right?
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: He goes oh, yeah, definitely.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: So we talked to the crew and talked about how static electricity happens and talked about the importance of bonding, like the guys had made the connections, but they just didn't tighten anything down.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: And that supervisor says oh, I had to write a report.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: If there's any deficiencies from an inspection, you would put it on that.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: And this guy he says can I write on this?
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: I said, yeah, sure, so he writes.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: It was really.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: It was humbling because he says finally a safety guy that can come to this job site anytime he writes that on the report.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: And then I got thinking, oh, my boss is going to see that he says to me.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Come on, Craig, we'll take you anytime.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: And your boss didn't say you're doing something wrong.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: It turns out, they kind of got cross-threaded somehow a few times and he says.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I said, yeah, this ought to be good.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: My boss ain't going to like that.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: He goes, your boss is a freaking asshole.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: And sure enough, a couple of weeks later he sees that and he goes what's this?
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I said hey, I don't know.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: I told him what happened.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: I said maybe you got cross-threaded to this guy, I don't know.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I said he actually says to me you were just a pushover and you didn't do your job out there.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: I said you can look at it that way, or you can look at it and say maybe, just maybe one of your people had some impact today.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: And then I walked away.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: I was a sergeant in the army, I'm not going to be intimidated by this little right.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: So anyway, the funny story is, as I was walking back clearly annoyed, back to my office, an operations manager that I'd worked with in the past at another company called me.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: He was at a new drilling company, said they're looking for a safety manager oh really.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: And I walked back and gave my resignation, nice.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: And then I became a safety manager and I got to try a lot of the stuff that I talk about as a leader.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: And this one guy I worked with he was a VP, he was the COO of the company.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: His name is Randy Hawkins.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: This was one of my best bosses ever worked for Wow.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: So as the safety manager, I reported to the COO and he said to me I didn't know we could do safety this way.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: This is like excellent.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I thought we're onto something here.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that led to me writing the book was I'd give speeches and presentations and stuff and a couple of guys go man, you got to write some of this stuff down, craig.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: And I wonder and so that was the beginning of maybe I should look at doing a book, and how would I write a like a book that?
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: So it's really more of a book about leadership and influence than it is a safety book.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: It's got a safety theme to it, but that's all.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Safety is whatever's going to be successful for you as a leader, no matter where you are in the food chain, is going to make you successful, influencing safety, because that's all you're doing is you're influencing.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: We don't need more rules.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: There's lots of those and I think the mistake a lot of people make in the safety field is they go to a tradesman, like a builder or whatever he is, a welder, somebody who's been around a long time, and we make the mistake of trying to tell them how to do their job and their craft.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know there's a whole bunch there.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I applaud you for having the courage to do that.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: And then I think the world just does that right.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: You have this awakening and you have a kind of awesome experience on site.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: You actually helped, like you didn't leave a list of critiques, you helped, got a good note from the site leader, pissed off your boss, got a new job offer.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: It all worked out.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, it did, yeah.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: But what I think is most important is that you had the courage to say no, I'm going to do it differently.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, so much so that you had the COO, like saying I didn't know we could do safety this way.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: And in my head there's a distinct difference between compliance, the way I categorize it is.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: There's the safety professionals that are compliance focused yeah, and then there's the minority, the like super tiny, teeny tiny number of safety professionals that are people focused.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: How do we make it better for the people?
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: How do we serve the people versus the compliance thing?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And so I got a question.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: I took some.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: I can't remember some training is a week long safety training, because I was in a safety role and I remember sitting in that training.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: It was about 20-some-odd people.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: I was in Minnesota, kind of close to y'all, and it was colder than I like.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: I don't even know how cold it is up your way.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Well, I think Minnesota is like south of Saskatchewan and Alberta, so yeah, we get a lot of the same weather, yeah.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so get a lot of the same weather.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so it was cold and I remember sitting in there and it was me and two other gentlemen.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: We were like the outcasts.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: We were the weirdos that were asking questions about influence and leadership, and the majority of the people in there wanted to know what is the rule, what is the consequence?
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Where is the page that I can cite this violation?
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: What's the maximum that we can like super compliance, focus, and me and the other two guys we're talking about different things, about collaborating with the leadership and getting involved hands-on with the trades, and can you do this sort of thing?
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: And I'm looking and the rest of the guys are like.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: They're like could y'all please just shut up Because we don't care.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Anyways, fast forward.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I'm talking to the guys at lunch and whatever.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: And I'm asking okay, so you're like the head safety guy for your company?
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, and these were all different framing companies, roofing companies, general contract like all construction, almost all of them, with the exception of one.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: One guy was there because he had a pretty damn significant handicap injury.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: And the company said, hey, how about you lead our safety goal?
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Because you got a great story and he did, like his whole attitude change or whatever Everybody else.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Their boss said, hey, I want you to be the safety guy.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: And they're like the head safety person for the company.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: And so in that moment, this is so.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Here's my question.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Like in that moment, what I thought I saw was like my boss when they recruited me.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: They were explicit.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: They said we want you to help us transform our safety culture.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: We want to have a more people-focused experience.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: We want to be less compliance-driven and more people-focused.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I said, hell, yeah, let's go.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Everybody, like those other guys that were there.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Their boss said we need a safety guy because we got to do something to improve our insurance rates and they picked compliance focused people and put them in a safety role.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: So, man, that's a long way to ask the damn question.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I think, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are like there are so many safety professionals that are 100% singularly focused on filling in the paperwork and checking the boxes and guarding against liability, and I think it's because it's a reflection of what their boss is, the decision makers within the company.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I think it's a reflection of their view of what safety is and can be.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: I think you're onto something there.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Compliance is an easily measurable thing.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: The rules say this and this, or we do this and this.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Bang Simple, but you're only going to ever.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: You'll never get beyond mediocre if you're focused on compliance.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Say it again, Craig.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Say it again.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Because, if you think of standards, you got a company that's failing.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: They're down here and the rules are bringing you to this level.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: So you're going to compliance and you're going to get there, but you're not going to sustain anything.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: You're going to always be mediocre.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: You're still going to be hurting people.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: You're still going to have rules broken, because if you're compliance focused, you're going to pencil, whip stuff.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: We did all this stuff, boom, let's go to work.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And so you're kind of playing the short game versus the long game.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: There's always a culture, right.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: But if you're going to be compliance focused, you're always going to be in the passenger seat on influencing the culture, because you're going to be the one getting influenced, versus in the driver's seat and influencing the work environment.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I hate I have to speak this language but I don't like it.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: There's culture, not safety culture, right, because you're not going to have a really good safety culture on one side with a really bad work environment on the other, or a culture right, it's just going to be bad.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: What's the other one?
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Leader, oh, safety leadership, there's just leadership.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: It's just going to be bad.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: What's the other one?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, safety leadership, there's just leadership.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: It's not safety leadership, there's leadership.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: But that's the terms we have in the industry, so I use them.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: But really, if you just take a people-focused approach and make sure we've got the guys set up to succeed and taken all the barriers down so they can get their job done, then yeah, we're going to make a difference.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: But if you're compliance focused, you're not going to sustain anything.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: You're going to get too mediocre.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: You're going to stay there.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: You might have a little pocket of excellence every now and again, but you won't sustain it.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: It'll fade back down.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: If you're compliance focused, the best you can expect is mediocre yeah.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Because if you think of OH&S standards, whether you're in Canada or the US, those rules in OH&S are written because someone got hurt or killed.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yep, their minimum Yep.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: So if you're only ever achieving compliance, you're just getting above an injury right, you're going to be mediocre and that's all you're going to achieve.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: It's going to be mediocre and that's all you're going to achieve.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Is it going to be easy to achieve?
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not killing people.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's an accomplishment Like it's not.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Like we have.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, so what's what?
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: One of the things that's happened and this is where we need to speak with leaders on is in in just about all industries, we've gotten pretty good at reducing the injury rates and, to some degree, the severity of the injuries.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Were you ever taught that triangle where you have so many injuries?
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah, or behaviors would lead to so many things which would eventually lead to fatality.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: If our injury rates are dropping and the severity is dropping, then there should be less fatalities, right?
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, but there isn't.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: In Canada, like in Alberta, for example, we have the National Day of Mourning every April.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: In the States they call it Workers Memorial Day.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: It's on the same day, it's on the 28th of April.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Yep, if you look at the numbers.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: So in Alberta, where I'm at, we average 160 work fatality a year and it's been like that for 15 years.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe 158, 166.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: It's just like that for 15 years.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Maybe 158, 166.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: It's just like that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Across canada, it's been 900 to a thousand workers a year for 15 years.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: In the states, I believe, it's 5 000.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Your population is what are you?
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: 300 million people?
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Like canada, we're only 40 million people.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: So, okay, but you can go to any region.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: You can go to the uk, you can go to australia.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: It's the same thing.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: The number is going to be different, but the change is not right, so pretty flatline the number of deaths.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: It's been flatlined, and so you would think if that triangle is actually true, we would have that number should come down, but there's a gap there somehow, and so we need to get better at reducing the fatalities.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: One of the things that's happened recently this has never happened before, at least on record is in Alberta occupational cancer is now one of the number one killers.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: It's like asbestos and stuff like that.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: So I got looking at that when Canada was in Afghanistan with the American military, we were there what?
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: 20 years, Something like that.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: In the time that Canada was there, we lost 128 soldiers in combat In combat In combat 128 in 11 years.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: We have 160 in construction.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: It's going to work every year.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: So, craig, well, first L&M family.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: You don't have to be a safety professional to appreciate what Craig is talking about, because he's talking about.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: You already said it right you took not safety leadership, it's leadership.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: It's not safety culture, it's culture.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: If you're only focused on compliance, the best you're going to achieve is mediocre.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: These are universal ideas that are applicable to any industry, any department.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: You know it's interesting and I don't know the answer, but I've been in my career in these specialized roles safety guy, lean guy, these different things.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and the intent is to provide a better experience for the men and women that are out there doing the work.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: However, what I got to see over and over again is managers kind of behave.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: There's this unwritten rule that if there is a safety professional, that means they don't have to worry about safety and, more specifically, they don't have to have any of the hard conversations related to safety, because the safety professional will do that, or the QAQC person will do that, or the lean person is going to do that.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: I worked with this was back when I was a foreman, I think, maybe even early superintendent.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: We had a safety professional and that guy just oh man, he would piss me off Like you've been thinking about him.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Just really, because here's the thing as a safety professional you have, I believe you have the ultimate platform to influence the business, to influence the leaders in their way they think and the decisions that they make in supporting the people, and you have a direct, no holds barred access to every level of the organization.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: So it's like the role that, if you like me, if you're an influence freak, that role itself is the perfect role that can be super, super leveraged.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: The power that they have that maybe they're not aware of just goes wasted so often.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Anyway, so I'll stop beating on that.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: But this guy, we had this process called MISA Mentally Installed Systems on Paper and so the idea is we'll peel our drawings apart, look at the work, get all up into the weeds.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: How are we going to execute it?
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Is it going to be scaffolding?
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: What are we going to do?
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Like just brainstorming?
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: How are we going to approach the work If let's bring the safety guy in and say hey man, there's this thing right here.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: We're not exactly sure what the safe is.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: This is what we're thinking, but that's not going to work.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: It's a stairwell, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: His response would be that's y'all's job.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: And yeah, just imagine that every time we reached out to him to be as a resource to help us mitigate the risk or design something to get as safe as we possibly can, his answer was always.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: And his answer was always that's y'all's job.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Y'all are the professional.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: But he would come back around and boy would he hammer us every time oh, you're in violation, these are the things you're not doing.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: It's like, okay, what can we do?
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Well, that's y'all's deal.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm like what the hell are you here?
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Jeez, can you tell?
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: I'm having a flashback here and it was like and I've seen a bunch of, he's just the worst example, but I've seen so many safety professionals.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: The way they operate is they come in after the fact and critique you and make sure my like, did you do?
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: Somebody got injured, okay, or there was a near miss?
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Let me see your pre-tax safety plan.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Guess what that task wasn't on the plan Violation, let me see.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: It doesn't solve anything and doesn't bust a grape in trying to help us make the work better.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: But by this point in the conversation there may be some safety people that are like screw these guys.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: I'm confident that the L&M family out there is going to take some of these really simple, clear and I'm going to make sure to clip out these punch in your gut points because they're that and again, they're applicable in leadership and influence and serving people.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Period Doesn't matter what department, what industry, they're universally applicable.