Latest / iRefresh Podcast / The Roots of YOGA | told by Christian Indians | EP 106

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The Roots of YOGA | told by Christian Indians | EP 106 · iRefresh Podcast

• 0:02
  God didn't take stripes on His back just for physical healing. That's for emotional healing. Maybe the answers could be found just in being heard and being seen and finding someone else that understands. I was seeing God's hand in the prayers that I was praying for other people. When you are not focused on yourself, it frees you to actually be part of a miracle in somebody else's life. Welcome to iRefresh, where we talk about the power of prayer and God's Word.
• 0:39
  Welcome to another episode of the Power of Prayer podcast. And I have a delightful experience, one we have not done before, and that is we have a couple of gentlemen in the room, and I wanna welcome you someone who's been behind the scenes for quite some time, and that is my husband, Tim. Hey.
• 0:56
  Nice to have you. And then our dear friends from India, Rose and James, welcome. Thank you. So we have had some conversations as we have, I have asked it actually of them of, I want to understand more of the what's going on in India and,
• 1:17
  what God has called them to do in India, and then also the topic of yoga. Because one of the things I know as a believer is, you know, in the end times it says that the very elect will be deceived. And my heart is I want to make sure everything I do, everything I see comes in front of me, is it lined up with God's word? Is it true? Is it what he desires for me? Is it good for me according to his word? Or is it potentially harmful?
• 1:45
  And so, James, I thought it would be a great introduction here is you would help us just to have a maybe clear understanding of the culture in India and what it's like even as a believer in Jesus Christ. What's that look like? Well, thank you for having me here. As a Christian, I'm a Christian.
• 2:06
  That's a good topic to discuss. Christians represent only about 3% of the population in India. And as you have probably heard before, and even as the U.S. government has brought to light some of the issues that are currently facing Christians in India,
• 2:29
  with the various persecutions, whether it is overtly through governmental means, the pressure that comes with being a believer and also just in the form of persecution that pastors face around India. So we as believers have different challenges that are there in India.
• 2:54
  And Christianity, even though they say is 3% officially, we believe there's a larger number of Christians that officially don't want to classify themselves as Christians due to persecution either from their families or just, you know, in general, not being able to receive government benefits and so on. There's things tied to that as well.
• 3:20
  So you can lose benefits. Yes. When you classify. So do you have to classify yourself as a Christian then?
• 3:26
  Yes, in the census, we have to classify what religion we are. And so that's kind of how they get the percentage of where we are, where we stand. But in general, the Christians who have come to faith from another religion, especially Hinduism, they don't declare that they are Christians because of the fact that they will not only face persecution from family, but also lose some benefits from...
• 3:54
  and face quite a bit of challenge.
• 3:58
  You said the pastors are persecuted. What exactly would that mean? Us in the United States, we don't have a clue. Sure. What does that mean to you guys? There are numerous stories that have come out of India of pastors that as they're conducting services, whether it be in a city but mostly in village areas, churches are attacked by pastors
• 4:25
  basically what we would call hoodlums, the groups of Hindu fanatics that come and attack the church and scare the believers that are there, whether they are probably new converts, and they scare them to basically...
• 4:43
  essentially not have them come back to church. And the pastors get beaten up and have been in the hospital, have been taken to the hospital due to injuries and so on. So it's not the freedom of religion is there in the constitution that we are allowed to practice our religion. But
• 5:04
  in reality, groups such as this attack Christians. And so it's a continuous challenge that believers have to live in fear sometimes of not being able to go to church so freely as we can here in the US. Wow, that's a lot. So currently the city that we live in,
• 5:26
  The Christian churches are not allowed to even rent properties. So they're being very strict about the rentals and things like that. So they have to find a place where they worship. Sometimes it has to be at home. And when it's at home, then there's more challenges that are associated with that.
• 5:49
  So if they meet in the home, obviously they're small and restricted in the numbers, but can they be taunted by other people around them and turned in? Because you're saying to James that they would lose benefits. That's right. We have seen numerous incidents of when they're meeting in a home.
• 6:08
  then the neighbors or these fanatic groups come in and basically disrupt the service, of course, and then say, complain to the police and say there's too much sound, or use other governmental means of trying to disrupt the service, and say, well, these people are causing too much noise in the neighborhood.
• 6:32
  they don't have permission to worship in their own home, they're running a church out of their home, all those type of questions come up as far as that goes. And then in village areas,
• 6:47
  Many organizations that have brought people to Christ have been accused of buying Christians, essentially, by paying. They say that Christians are giving money to the poor of society there to become a Christian, which is not the case necessarily. Of course, they are there to help people when there is a need.
• 7:10
  They use that as a means of saying that Christianity, people are buying Christianity, essentially, which is essentially not the case, obviously. Right. That's really, you know, that's an incredible challenge when I think about, you know, just a normal daily life for you to gather together on a weekly basis.
• 7:33
  that we here, I mean, I'm more conscious of it in America as things have changed here as well, is it's coming all over. But you're saying to me when you mentioned too, and Tim feel free to pipe in too,
• 7:48
  I'm always, I have lots of questions, but you mentioned a lot of it times it is radical Hindus that are coming, which kind of begins to open up also the door of what we're, one of our main topics too is the yoga. Mm-hmm.
• 8:04
  So from what little I do know about yoga, that is a part of the Hinduism religion, is that correct? That's right. Yoga has of course its foundations in Hinduism and the practice of itself is to basically enlightenment and to unite your personal soul with,
• 8:30
  With the God that they serve. Okay. So yoga has different aspects. Okay. So you have this personal spiritual aspect, and then you have the exercise part of it.
• 8:51
  And then the third is that chanting or the meditation part of it. Okay. So it's a three form, which biblically, you know, we have the spirit, mind, and body. Wow. So yoga is part of Hinduism. You cannot take yoga out of the religion, Hindu religion. So even when we were in the city, we walked.
• 9:18
  when we go for walks, we see yoga being practiced, whether it is the breathing exercise or the stretches. So these are all things that is part of a person who follows the Hindu religion. So to bring that out of Hinduism and bring into Christianity, it's a
• 9:41
  I'm not sure whether it is a possibility. Because basically, I think you, in preparing for this, you mentioned to me was that Christians there in India, they would never practice yoga. Is that correct? That's right. Okay. So even in schools, it's mandatory now for schools to help practice or offer yoga classes.
• 10:08
  And so the Christian families bring their children out of those schools because they don't want them to practice yoga. That's quite a statement. Yes. They are trying to, the government is also trying to require that of all schools, whether you're a private or a public school. And so that, you know, that is part of their, you know, what they call exercise and they, you know, want it.
• 10:34
  for health purposes for the kids, but that is all part of their agendas to, to bring yoga into, to be a requirement of the Hindu of, of all people to do that, to practice yoga. Yeah. So the exercise component is really the, the body portion. Yes. And really that's a good thing. I mean, you know, we as Christians, you know, we should be working our body out to keep ourselves healthy. That's right. Um,
• 11:04
  But really the big difference then is going to be the spirit side and the soul side. That's right. Yeah, I mean, go ahead. But the exercise part of it, which is something called the Hatha Yoga,
• 11:23
  The part that is, even though we're trying to say, okay, that's the exercise part of it is postures. And each pose is worshiping a god that they have. Like I said, there's over 300 million gods. And so each pose represents or you worship a deity. So how can you have that be an exercise is what...
• 11:52
  It's impossible, is what I'm hearing. Christians in India understand that there's no way for them to take a pose because they know that that is actually worshiping some god.
• 12:06
  of the many that they have in the Hindu religion. So it makes sense for the government wanting to bring yoga into every school because that's their indoctrinating every single person to take on, because yes, like you said, Tim, it starts with the body, but it also then affects the mind and the spirit, because you can't affect one part of a spirit, soul, and body without the other following suit.
• 12:34
  So, okay, so what else could you tell us then about yoga that would help us to have maybe more clarity as Christians here in the United States? So I read from a Hindu professor at the university. He says that yoga comes directly from a main branch of Hindu religion.
• 13:01
  which teaches that everything is God. There's no distinction between the creator and the man. Man is God, yoga is the vehicle that is supposed, vehicle to the supposed realization that man is God. So that is what the whole thing about yoga is. So most often people say that when they do yoga, it makes you feel good.
• 13:29
  And it just, it makes, you know, after you do all those stretches, it makes you feel good. But as I listened to a young woman who just came out of Hinduism, she practiced yoga throughout her life and which she's, it was a spiritual journey for her. And she, as she got into more and more in this journey,
• 13:58
  her body got into a level of where she was experiencing a lot of pain and her health was affected. And she was able to get out of it and God healed her and that's how she became a Christian. So from her perspective, she mentioned that yoga is...
• 14:20
  Christian yoga is more of a deception and a tactic that the enemy uses. It is a I think you had used another word for it. It's it's a counterfeit yes of what the true meaning of That's good biblically what we should be doing. Yeah
• 14:44
  Well, you know, it makes sense when you, you know, like we said at the beginning is whenever we're exploring things,
• 14:51
  which I think in our lives we're always exploring, learning. There's something about us as people that are always wanting to know our identity and knowing our purpose in life and being valued for whoever we discover who we are. And I think that's where when we don't allow the Holy Spirit to be the one who leads us in that path, like you said, then there's a place and a room for us to be deceived.
• 15:17
  But then you start going back, okay, what does the word say? Go back to Ephesians, you know, in 6, when it talks about we need to put on the full armor of God. And why is that? Because of the attacks we have are not always like where we physically see it. It's more of the spirit realm because there's principalities and powers of the air that are trying to take captive our thoughts and to submit us to the deceit of the enemy. I mean, it happened there in Genesis with, you know, Eve.
• 15:46
  And how the serpent, which I want to tag on that related to yoga. You've talked about there's a thing related to the serpent. Because you think the very first time that we were deceived by Eve, it was a serpent who would throw out words, used enough truth, but infiltrated with, well, yes, you can eat of this fruit because you will become like gods. So the very beginning, we see that God,
• 16:16
  the deceit of the enemy was trying to captivate a person, you know, Eve being so intrigued by, I wanted all things. I want to know and be like God. But you've mentioned to me before, Rose, that there's something about a serpent, I think, and related to yoga. Yes, it's called Kundalini. So it's basically...
• 16:45
  A spiritual force described as a coiled white serpent of light, which lies at the base of the spine, on your spine. Hindus believe that the Kundalini can aid them in their transcendence to impersonal spiritual monosal. So this is for a Hindu, the physical postures of yoga are essentially keys that unlock the spiritual realm.
• 17:12
  for the purpose of losing all attachment and feeling that enlightenment. Wow. So you're basically losing yourself. Yes. So I think, um, most often, even I know that my niece, when she does at the end of, uh, the yoga, they'd say, okay, this is now a time for us to, uh, have that, um, open up our minds and just relax.
• 17:38
  But in the Bible, it doesn't say for us to open up our mind. It says to fill our minds with the things of God. So the Bible says that abstain from all those evil things. And to be wise. And have that wisdom to discern what's right. And so I think it's, Tim mentioned earlier, to have the Holy Spirit. Listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Is this the right path? Am I taking the right path? Is this yoga path?
• 18:08
  the right path for me. So as we are coming to that, you know, as the Lord is coming there, we need to more and more listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit and be led by the Holy Spirit. Yeah, there's some great scriptures. As you were talking, I was just thinking about it. I was looking here at 1 John 4, 1. It says, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
• 18:34
  just like what you're saying. So we can be deceived, even as a believer, if we're not testing it. How does this line up? Do I have sense of peace?
• 18:44
  You know, Tim, you're always talking about who is our God, the God of peace is Jehovah Shalom. You know, that's one of the characteristics of our Father in heaven. Right. He's our righteousness and he sanctifies us. You know, he is our peace, our provider, our healer.
• 19:05
  Whereas in yoga, they're talking about healing from another source. Yes. Which, you know, it has to be right straight from the pit of hell. Yes.
• 19:17
  You know, you've got a good point, though, Tim. I think if you would expound, because you're good about even those characteristics of, you know, the Father and the Holy Spirit because of who they are, those characteristics of God the Father or even the Holy Spirit are there to help us so that we don't find or are not deceived and give in to something that's counter to having a relationship with God.
• 19:43
  Well, when you develop a relationship with the Holy Spirit, you have to realize who this person of the Holy Spirit is that you're developing a relationship with. You know, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.
• 20:00
  And he sent him to give us wisdom and give us understanding and be our counselor. So, you know, it's a whole, I mean, we could go on for hours and hours and hours, but, you know, you have to understand, you know, who we're dealing with in our God. You know, it's like I said, you know, Jehovah Shalom, he's the God of peace. Yeah.
• 20:31
  You know, the only way to him or to the God of peace is through God's only Son, Jesus.
• 20:38
  Exactly. That's good. And that's where we can be deceived when we're going contrary to that. And so that's where I know that we have scripture too. And when you're talking about the physical form, I think 1 Peter 4, 7 through 8 even refers to saying, have nothing to do with irreverent silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness. For while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way.
• 21:06
  as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. And then the other part, too, when you refer to the Hindu gods, there are multiple gods. Exodus 23 says, You should have no other gods before me.
• 21:24
  because there's only one God. So it's like we have to make sure we know what the Word is so that we can see is this truth or is this veering away from God's truth. Anyway, so what else have you discovered about the yoga and the experiences of how it maybe affects us in spirit, soul, or body? I think you had a lady that you said went through the Hinduism, but then she got sick and
• 21:52
  Like, okay, so how did she get sick? Was it from eating? No. So she did, like I said, it was a spiritual journey for her. She was one of this experience, the religious experience. Okay. So she decided, so she's from a Hindu background, born and raised here. She went to India.
• 22:15
  and went to all these different temples and visited with all this guru they call. And so she went through all these different yoga experiences. And so she said that she, her experiences were so enlightening. Like there were times when she was laughing, there were times when she was just
• 22:38
  so peaceful and so, but then it was just up for a moment. And then when she leaves that experience, her body would just go into this. The doctors couldn't identify what the problem was. And they couldn't find any sort of medication.
• 22:56
  So they put her in some sort of like drug that would just calm her down. Tranquilize her. Basically. Sounds like it, yeah. And that was the only way for her to go through life. And when she came back to America, her mom had to keep giving her these pills to make her completely just...
• 23:21
  I, you know, at home and not able to perform at all whatsoever. But then she experienced the power of Jesus Christ and came to the Lord. And the moment she gave her life to the Lord and experienced that love and experienced the Holy Spirit, her body completely.
• 23:43
  was healed. And her mom would say, hey, I want you to take your pill. And she's like, no, I don't need it. And so she understood the power of Jesus Christ, the power of healing. And so now she's very vocal about what the aspect of yoga is.
• 24:01
  and how it affects your body. And you do, you experience that short moment of, oh, that bliss and that feeling good, but the next. What's following. It's not good. It's not healthy. Yeah. It doesn't last. It doesn't last. Right. But you know, in America, it's just being marketed so much. And if you look at in every aspect of whether it is
• 24:31
  Advertisement, or if you go to stores, you see yoga being advertised quite a bit. Oh, yeah, and spas. It's always classes for the yoga. Yes, yes. And supposedly they give you that essence as though it's going to be peaceful on the other side. But, you know, one word you've used, too, is enlightenment. Yes, yes.
• 24:53
  So the enlightenment is what? So that we become connected to, well, they have a lot of gods, so connected to all these gods? So are you part of, are they saying you became a god yourself, or is it just connected to one of the many gods when they're doing that? I mean, is there clarity on that? But I think the Hindu belief is that eventually you become a god, right? This is a process of getting there. Okay.
• 25:19
  So is their enlightenment something like to give you understanding of things? Is that what their thinking enlightenment is? I believe so. Yeah. So that's really a counterfeit of what…
• 25:34
  the Holy Spirit gives us, he gives us understanding. Yes. You know, when we read the word, sometimes it's, if you don't have the Holy Spirit resident in you, you can't understand. I'm like, you know, this is, I don't understand, it's very complicated, but you read it, the Holy Spirit speaks to you. Exactly. And brings the understanding. Exactly.
• 25:58
  enlightens you, so to speak. Revelation. We use the term of revelation with clarity and understanding, where they talk about enlightenment. But the great thing for us is what God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is, they're desiring to have a close relationship.
• 26:21
  And I'm not sure if that's what they're offering on the other side, but I know for us, we get to commune and we get to have a conversation directly. We don't have to go to anyone, but go have direct access to the Lord. What a beautiful thing that we have. Yes, exactly. So I think that we can, I mean, there's probably other points in there too, but there's definitely, when you're saying the way that things are marketed to us today, like,
• 26:44
  there's going to be a lot of resistance of, of those who are practicing right now as, as a believer. So I don't know what, what is it that we can do to really give an understanding of like, I think with clarity of what is the, an alternative to what yoga offers in our world today? Because if they're marketing yoga, what are some other things that we might see?
• 27:11
  Like for me, I'm thinking exercise. Okay, so if it's dealing with your body, there's all kinds of forms of exercise. They kind of all go through trends. Like I know when I went to college, back in the day, it was aerobics. Yes. You know, so I did that. And you still do stretching in your aerobics before and after exercise.
• 27:30
  And, you know, the breathing part, they used to do that back in the day, too. I mean, still do. I think you can still do breathing. But I think part of it is we don't really necessarily want to clear our mind, maybe of, you know, bad thoughts or what have you. Because the Lord says about think on those things that are pure and lovely and of a good report.
• 27:49
  So I think those are the things that the Lord wants us to renew our mind and taking captive our thoughts to the obedience of Jesus Christ. So I believe that there is a space for us to be quiet and meditate on God's Word. Yes, I mean, there's so many different ways you can exercise. You don't have to take yoga. I mean, knowing that it is a Hindu practice, I mean, you can do whatever that's out there.
• 28:15
  Go for long walks and just meditate on the Word of God. And, you know, I believe that if you search, you'll find whatever it is that you need to do. For somebody that has been taking yoga and is...
• 28:35
  you know, feeling like, hey, there's got to be something else. You know, we would tell them that, well, you know, Jesus came so that we might have life and have it more abundantly. And, you know, the way to the Father is through Jesus. And so, you know, we, you know, there has to be another path or there has, there is another path and it's through Jesus. And Jesus said that,
• 29:04
  he would send us another comforter, someone who would teach us and he would be the truth. He would testify of him. That's the Holy Spirit. So, you know, all we have to do to accept Jesus is to believe that he died for us. The father raised him from the dead and then accept the Holy Spirit as a gift and
• 29:33
  that takes care of all of our needs from, you know, it'll get us out of yoga. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the things that are advertised to Western, uh,
• 29:47
  to the Western culture in India is people, they advertise the aspect of coming to get, you know, self-realization or enlightenment and peace as we talk about that. And so there are numerous places in India where these Hindu organizations try to invite you in to come and find that peace and realization and even in the form of yoga.
• 30:14
  But as you said, you know, the Holy Spirit is there to guide us. We don't have to go anywhere to do that, but sit in your own living room and, you know, and commune with the Holy Spirit and develop that relationship so that that is the ultimate answer. You don't have to seek after, go to another country or, you know, you can experience that in your own home. Yes.
• 30:38
  You know, James, you were talking about too beforehand about how even when your father had come over to America, what did he discover when he was seen in the church amongst Christians that he was concerned about? Yeah, the concern was in the form of the New Age movement. And again, yoga is a form of that, trying to water down Christianity to the extent of, you know,
• 31:04
  there's multiple ways, for example, to get to God when we know that there's only one way. And, you know, just in the form of, you know, trying to portray that as a, you know, that there's multiple ways and trying to be more tolerant, as you would say. But, you know, he felt that Christians here are having that, have that, I would say,
• 31:34
  you know, to do more acceptance of other people. But yes, we should love as Christ has told us to love others. But we don't have to compromise our beliefs on and realize that, you know, God is there to help us in each step of the way.
• 31:50
  Watering down Christianity, in a sense, is not the answer to, obviously, what we go through in life. And as you said, the Holy Spirit is there to guide us each step of the way. But, yeah. That's good, Rose. Well, if you have even some closing thoughts, you'd think that would be really important, just really encourage people that are listening,
• 32:12
  Maybe their involvement, they've been involved in and there's a resistance or like, I'm not going to accept that. Do you have any thoughts that might help to encourage people to just go to the Lord to pray through and consider listening to what maybe the Holy Spirit wants to show them personally, as far as what God would have them.
• 32:34
  especially if they're really involved and they love it maybe they haven't had that feeling well I never got sick and I'm still feeling great and I'm still feeling everybody's experiences are going to be different is there anything that we could say to them that might just help them to ponder and pray through
• 32:52
  The only thing I can say is that even our conversation with our niece was that we tried to tell her this is not the path for her. Her response was said, it feels good. It helps my body. However, I feel like sometimes it does help our body, but sometimes our mind gets kind of disordered. And then our...
• 33:21
  faith walk kind of gets strayed. I feel like this deception, you know, enemies is a deceiver. So he deceives you in thinking, okay, this is good. It makes me feel good. And, but it affects our mind.
• 33:40
  So that's one example that I know that we were able to see in person that it did because it was kind of like, no, this is it. This is the right way. But we were able to see that in her life. And I feel like a lot of people might think, okay, this is makes my body feel good. Why should I stop? I would go back and say, okay, get back in the word.
• 34:08
  spend time in prayer and ask the Lord, is there something wrong with this? Show me, guide me, bring people into my path and show me in a way that I know this is not from you. And so I'd say, pray, seek the Lord. That's really good. Well, James and Rose, thank you so much for being willing just to share, to give us a really a better understanding of what's happening in India, the culture where really that yoga comes from.
• 34:35
  how it may seem good, but scripturally it doesn't necessarily, well, it does not necessarily, it does not line up with what God has. God has so many incredible things he has for us, spirit, soul, and body, to strengthen us in all capacities. And I think you've really given us something for people to really take away, to ponder it, to pray through it.
• 34:57
  to seek the word. We're going to have even our show notes, even a lot of the scriptures that we know that are helpful, that are really is here's the enemy and the counterfeit, but here's what God has for you that to strengthen you in your, in every area of your life where you can actually, and alternatives to, to the yoga that might help them to maybe transition to something. If after they pray, like, you know, I need to just maybe take a new journey and see what happens on that. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.