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Stealing Choreography - Unethical Practices in Our Industry · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_05: Hi listeners, Courtney here.
0:02
SPEAKER_05: Making the Impact strives to provide current and correct information in all of our episodes.
0:06
SPEAKER_05: And it has come to our attention that some of the information shared regarding copyright in this episode is incorrect.
0:12
SPEAKER_05: We've edited the episode to remove the incorrect information, as we never want to mislead our listeners in any way.
0:18
SPEAKER_05: Thank you for your continued support and enjoy this episode on Stealing Choreography.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
0:36
SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: It should go without saying that stealing is wrong, right?
0:52
SPEAKER_01: In the competitive dance world, too often we hear about choreographers who have had their work stolen, only to find out about it on a YouTube video, or worse, on stage at an event.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: On this episode of Making the Impact, we're talking about stealing choreography.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: Why it happens, how to avoid it, and what to do if yours is stolen.
1:12
SPEAKER_05: Hello, dance world, and welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
1:17
SPEAKER_05: I am your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here, like always, with my co-host, Leslie Mailer.
1:23
SPEAKER_05: Happy Podcast Day, Courtney.
1:25
SPEAKER_05: Happy Podcast Day.
1:26
SPEAKER_05: Happy Monday over here for us in Recording Land.
1:28
SPEAKER_05: And also, my voice is completely gone after a long competition and convention weekend.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, you are here, and somehow you've woken up to make this happen, so I think it's gonna be a great episode.
1:39
SPEAKER_05: It's gonna be a fantastic episode and a very hot topic episode this week because we're talking about stealing choreography.
1:48
SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh.
1:49
SPEAKER_05: The drama.
1:50
SPEAKER_05: Yes, so much drama.
1:52
SPEAKER_05: There is drama.
1:53
SPEAKER_05: There's always drama attached to this because is it appropriate to steal choreography?
1:59
SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna straight up say probably not.
2:02
SPEAKER_05: But you're gonna hear all about that once we dive into this episode.
2:06
SPEAKER_05: It's almost competition season.
2:07
SPEAKER_05: It is January, so maybe you've already had a chance to compete.
2:10
SPEAKER_05: Maybe you haven't.
2:11
SPEAKER_05: You're about to hit the stage very soon.
2:13
SPEAKER_05: I hope that you are gearing up in prepping with your preview shows.
2:17
SPEAKER_05: Make sure you have some dress rehearsals, y'all.
2:19
SPEAKER_05: And our IDA judges are getting ready to head out all season long.
2:23
SPEAKER_05: And I know they cannot wait.
2:24
SPEAKER_05: So I'm pumped for the competition season to be here.
2:27
SPEAKER_05: Are you, Leslie?
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I can't wait.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: It's like I I think I've said before, like as we head towards January and February, I just get more and more excited.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: My mood improves because I really just don't like being bored on the weekends.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I say that now, but it the day will come when like April rolls around and I'm like, oh, can I just have a weekend to myself?
2:48
SPEAKER_01: You know.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: So the grass is always greener, but no, I am definitely looking forward to the 2023 season and seeing what everybody's got cooking.
2:57
SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
2:57
SPEAKER_05: I am too.
2:58
SPEAKER_05: I've been out just a little bit on the convention side of things, judging a little bit, and it's been some really great stuff, even so early in the season.
3:06
SPEAKER_05: So can't wait to see what things are looking like throughout February, March, April, and May.
3:11
SPEAKER_05: And before we jump into this week's episode, we want to tell you about our sponsors today.
3:17
SPEAKER_05: And our one and only sponsor has been here since season one, and that is Level Up Dance Supplies.
3:24
SPEAKER_05: Whether you have two dances or twenty dances, Level Up Dance Supplies has a travel bag that's just right for you.
3:31
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3:37
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3:44
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3:52
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4:01
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4:04
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4:10
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4:22
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4:23
SPEAKER_05: Gear up for the competition season at Level Up Dance Supplies.
4:27
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4:33
SPEAKER_01: And y'all, it's only$5 a month, and membership perks include access to our QA live episodes released monthly, priority for your questions to be answered on those QAs, ad-free listening, free stickers mailed to you and your dancer, a discount on Making the Impact merchandise, and a discounted online critique from Courtney Ortiz.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: All of our subscribers have the option to receive a shout-out on a future podcast episode, so we would love to say thank you for your support to some of our recent members.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: We would love to say a big shout out to Trina and Miranda Fenton, a dance mom and dancer from Gotta Dance Academy in Simi Valley, California.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: They say we listen to all the all the casts, all the podcasts.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: That's a cute way to say it.
5:10
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5:14
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5:17
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5:20
SPEAKER_01: All right, well, little Miss Finton, good luck to you, and I hope to see you on Broadway one day.
5:26
SPEAKER_05: And shout out to another recent platinum premium member, Debbie Sampson, who is a studio owner and also an IDA judge this season.
5:34
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5:35
SPEAKER_05: From Pamelot School of Dance in Auburn, California.
5:39
SPEAKER_05: Debbie says, I absolutely love this podcast.
5:41
SPEAKER_05: There is a wealth of information, and I love having a glimpse of all the perspectives offered.
5:46
SPEAKER_05: Thank you so much, Debbie.
5:48
SPEAKER_05: We have to have you on the podcast soon, it sounds like.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:51
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5:54
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6:00
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6:08
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6:09
SPEAKER_05: All right, dance world.
6:10
SPEAKER_05: It is time to jump on in to our episode this week.
6:13
SPEAKER_05: And we are talking all about stealing choreography.
6:17
SPEAKER_05: Ooh, hot topic.
6:19
SPEAKER_05: And I'm sure a lot of you have maybe witnessed this at competition.
6:24
SPEAKER_05: Maybe I I mean, I hope not, but like maybe your studio has been the one that has actually stolen the choreography.
6:31
SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh, I really hope that's not you.
6:35
SPEAKER_05: Because you're not gonna like this episode if this is if that's you as a studio.
6:40
SPEAKER_05: We have two guests on our podcast today, like always.
6:44
SPEAKER_05: And our first guest is a returning guest who has been on each season of Making the Impact so far, which is so exciting.
6:52
SPEAKER_05: You may remember this IDA judge from season one, episode 20, pushing past performance anxiety, season two, episode 29, music at competition, one of our hottest episodes ever.
7:04
SPEAKER_05: And season three, episode 90, QA with Courtney Live, which was so much fun.
7:10
SPEAKER_05: I am so excited to welcome back to the podcast, Tap Dancer Extraordinaire, Miss Jen Garafa.
7:16
SPEAKER_03: Hey!
7:18
SPEAKER_05: Welcome back, Jen.
7:19
SPEAKER_05: Happy to have you.
7:20
SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
7:21
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me back.
7:22
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
7:23
SPEAKER_05: And uh, we're chatting about stealing choreography.
7:26
SPEAKER_05: You always have so much to contribute, so many different types of episodes you've been on.
7:30
SPEAKER_05: So now we're gonna chat about the choreography side of things today, which I'm pumped to hear what you have to say about it.
7:36
SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh, can't wait.
7:37
SPEAKER_04: We've been around the world and back with this.
7:39
SPEAKER_04: So I'm excited.
7:40
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so Jen, if you wouldn't mind telling the world out there, reminding the world, because I'm sure they all remember you from our previous episodes, a little bit more about you, where you're based, your training, any career credits you'd like to share, and what you're working on now.
7:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I am Jen Garafa, and I am from I'm based down in Orlando, Florida.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: So I am in the center of theme parkland as a dancer.
8:03
SPEAKER_04: I grew up down here, I trained down here, uh, spent a couple summers up in New York City, because why wouldn't you do that?
8:10
SPEAKER_04: And you know, got my undergrad at the University of Central Florida in psychology.
8:15
SPEAKER_04: And then over COVID, I just finished my master's degree from the University of Denver in arts and culture management and marketing.
8:22
SPEAKER_04: So that was a whole, a whole COVID adventure for me, half in COVID, half out of COVID.
8:26
SPEAKER_04: And then yeah, I've been performing at Disney World for about 15 years.
8:30
SPEAKER_04: And I've been teaching since I was 16.
8:33
SPEAKER_04: So we don't need to do the math, but we've been teaching for a very long time.
8:37
SPEAKER_04: And I currently have um started to adventure out of um, I'm on a like a one-year sabbatical from teaching.
8:45
SPEAKER_04: I took like a mental health leave and just decided to take a year off, and it has been the best thing.
8:50
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I'm getting to do a lot of things for myself.
8:53
SPEAKER_04: I'm learning how to play the drums and I into tap dance every day for myself and not for anybody else.
8:58
SPEAKER_04: It's really great.
8:59
SPEAKER_04: And I'm currently performing at Disney World still in Festival of the Lion King, which is just a gem of a show.
9:05
SPEAKER_04: And I'm a full-time stage manager over at Sesame Street.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: I am the venue owner of Sesame Street at SeaWorld Orlando, and so it is just the greatest time.
9:14
SPEAKER_04: It's a fun transition of competition team director, dance teacher skills over to working with professionals who are honestly just some of the greatest people in Orlando.
9:23
SPEAKER_04: And it we love it.
9:24
SPEAKER_04: It's been such a fun adventure to work with that brand and step out of my comfort zone a little bit.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: That's so many things.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: Congratulations on your MFA.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
9:34
SPEAKER_03: It was so hard, but oh, awesome.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: That's so good to hear.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, all of that.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm just I've been, you know, I follow all the IDA judges, you know, and I've never even met Jen, but like I feel like I'm like, oh Jen, I'm rooting for you, all the things you're doing all the time.
9:48
SPEAKER_04: Listen, I was rooting for that cat condo.
9:50
SPEAKER_04: So we're in it together.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: She's she's here, Charlotte's here.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: So she's staring longingly at it right now because it's 40 degrees outside.
9:58
SPEAKER_05: Very good.
9:59
SPEAKER_05: That's so funny.
10:00
SPEAKER_05: I'm rooting for the cat.
10:01
SPEAKER_05: God no, I love it.
10:02
SPEAKER_05: We all just follow each other, um, each other's life life journeys on social media.
10:07
SPEAKER_05: And it is true.
10:08
SPEAKER_05: Like, I feel like that Jen, I have also never had the chance to meet you yet.
10:11
SPEAKER_05: Isn't that crazy?
10:12
SPEAKER_05: Like, we've we've almost connected multiple times.
10:15
SPEAKER_05: Like, I'm in Orlando.
10:17
SPEAKER_05: Oh, you're in New York, and then it just never happens.
10:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:20
SPEAKER_05: And it makes me so sad because I just but I feel like I know you.
10:23
SPEAKER_05: And it's also like through IDA, but then these moments on the podcast are so great to really get to know uh new friends and old friends and people even better than before.
10:33
SPEAKER_05: So we're happy to have you here again on the pod.
10:36
SPEAKER_05: Thanks for joining us, Jen.
10:37
SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
10:37
SPEAKER_03: Glad to be back.
10:39
SPEAKER_05: All right, and our next special guest is a brand new guest to our podcast, and this is someone who I do not know.
10:44
SPEAKER_05: I am meeting them right here for the very first time.
10:47
SPEAKER_05: But they are a New Yorker, and it sounds like our paths may have crossed a few times throughout the city life.
10:52
SPEAKER_05: She is a dance teacher, a dance adjudicator, and a choreographer.
10:56
SPEAKER_05: I'm excited to welcome Amy Bush to our podcast.
10:59
SPEAKER_05: Welcome, Amy.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: Hello.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to myself.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: I almost said welcome as well.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: You fit right in here.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
11:09
SPEAKER_05: Welcome, Amy.
11:10
SPEAKER_05: All the welcomes all around.
11:12
SPEAKER_05: We're happy to have you join us for this chat.
11:15
SPEAKER_05: And I'm so happy that you expressed interest in wanting to join us on this.
11:18
SPEAKER_05: I'm assuming you've maybe experienced uh some choreography stealing yourself, or you've I'm sure you have things to tell us on the podcast.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'll have plenty to say on the subject.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm actually a huge fan of the podcast and listen to it for since the start.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: So it's actually been on my bucket list to be on it.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: So I was able to cross it off for 2023.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: So woohoo, cool.
11:38
SPEAKER_05: Yes, we love making that happen for our guests over here.
11:41
SPEAKER_05: We had that.
11:42
SPEAKER_05: That immediately reminded me of Amanda De Tullio, and she said the same thing when we brought her on the podcast.
11:46
SPEAKER_05: She's like, I put it on my vision board.
11:48
SPEAKER_05: I was gonna be on Making the Impact Podcast, and here I am.
11:51
SPEAKER_05: I love it.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
11:53
SPEAKER_05: That is so fun.
11:54
SPEAKER_05: Awesome, Amy.
11:55
SPEAKER_05: Well, we're happy to have you, if you wouldn't mind.
11:58
SPEAKER_05: Same kind of deal, telling the world a little bit more about you.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
12:02
SPEAKER_02: So I live in upstate New York, so I'm actually about an hour and a half outside the city, but I work directly in the city.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, I've been a dance instructor and choreographer for the last 14 years.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: Prior to that, I was involved in theater.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: I've trained a lot.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: I did Broadway Dance Centers performing their summer intensive.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: I've trained a lot in versus in many, many styles.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: On top of that, I do work in TV and film.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Aside from being a dance adjudicator and a choreographer, I'm a production assistant working all across the Tri-State region in live and directly in TV and film with Marvel Smith's Mazel.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: We just wrapped up my worked on New Amsterdam, the VMAs, iHeartRadio.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: So I've been on the production side, but also being on the forefront of everything.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of me in a nutshell.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, what I can contribute today is that I have a background in arts management from SUNY Purchase and where we study directly, not only communications and marketing for the arts, but art and entertainment law.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: So I'll have a lot to touch on this.
12:59
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
13:00
SPEAKER_05: Cool.
13:00
SPEAKER_05: I'm excited to hear that.
13:02
SPEAKER_05: And like, you know, from from that perspective as well, like what you learned while studying that at school and how that affects your approach into, you know, choreography in general, and then how like to protect the choreography, if that's even possible.
13:16
SPEAKER_05: I think we're gonna dive into that.
13:18
SPEAKER_05: So please feel free to share what you've learned from those courses in college.
13:23
SPEAKER_05: I'd love to hear more about it because I truly have no darn clue.
13:26
SPEAKER_05: And I can't wait to to learn from y'all.
13:28
SPEAKER_05: So thank you, Amy, for joining us.
13:31
SPEAKER_05: And uh, Leslie, feeling good?
13:33
SPEAKER_05: Ready to jump on in?
13:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so let's jump on in.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm so grateful that you guys had the time uh to devote to this podcast today because it has been, it's been in the not necessarily in the news, but like kind of in the news.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, major choreographers across the country and around the world have had choreography stolen and ripped off.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's it's our art.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: This is what we do, this is what we produce.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just like any other job.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: You pr you produce a product and it's yours.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: You did that.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: So I don't understand why people think dance is any different than anything else in terms of whether it's okay or not to steal choreography.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious, um, have either one of you had your choreography directly stolen from you in any way, whether that's at you know, competition or even in class, anything like that?
14:22
SPEAKER_04: I'll jump in.
14:22
SPEAKER_04: There this has happened to me a bunch a lot, unfortunately.
14:26
SPEAKER_04: And it has happened from super minor, where it's like, where's the line of teachers left the studio and their new studio magically had the same song and the same costume and the same structure, but maybe a different eight count, but everything followed the same patterning, right?
14:44
SPEAKER_04: So, like where is that line?
14:46
SPEAKER_04: Last year, actually, we were at competition and a bunch of my kids come running down.
14:49
SPEAKER_04: We were at a convention competition, running down the hallway, oh my god, Miss Jen, Miss Jen, they're doing our dance, they're doing our dance.
14:56
SPEAKER_04: And so I was like, No way.
14:58
SPEAKER_04: And we I go and it's the same song, it's like no, no, like it's right, it's you know, whatever, everybody uses that song.
15:05
SPEAKER_04: It but it wasn't.
15:06
SPEAKER_04: I was like, this is not a song, like it was a tap piece, and it was a song that we were like, I've never heard it at competition before, and I still haven't since that.
15:16
SPEAKER_04: And they I went out and I watched it, I was like, Oh no, that's that is the same biography.
15:23
SPEAKER_04: Um they costumed it differently, they used the same sections of music, which was obvious because it was a song that had to be heavily cut.
15:29
SPEAKER_04: Oh wow.
15:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it was just they were like, Why would someone who how how can I do that?
15:35
SPEAKER_04: Like, what are what are they doing?
15:36
SPEAKER_04: It's like, all right, listen, there is no point in doing this right here, right now, because at some point you just have to realize like it's not it's a lower level, like it's it's not gonna do anything.
15:48
SPEAKER_04: We're not doing the same dance in the same year.
15:50
SPEAKER_04: And at some point, I don't know, I just always tried to be like, guys, biggest form of flattery.
15:54
SPEAKER_04: Like, we can get into the crux of this later, but someone loved that so much that they wanted to do it, and like it's not even that good.
16:02
SPEAKER_04: So we're just gonna we're gonna go have a pizza and it's gonna be fine.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't even my best work, guys.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter.
16:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like it wasn't it wasn't my best work.
16:11
SPEAKER_04: It's certainly not not great right now.
16:13
SPEAKER_04: Like they're just having fun doing a thing that they saw that they liked and whatever, but oh there's been some there's been a couple moments like that that you're just like, yeah, that's fine.
16:23
SPEAKER_05: So that is like I like it, like you just saying that and how you said that you handled it.
16:29
SPEAKER_05: I would have I don't know if I could have been that chill about it.
16:32
SPEAKER_05: Like I would have probably hunted the studio down and been like, who is your studio director?
16:37
SPEAKER_05: I need to have a conversation and then pull up the video of my dance and say, so I just watched this dance on stage.
16:45
SPEAKER_05: What are your thoughts?
16:46
SPEAKER_05: Because that's actually my choreography.
16:47
SPEAKER_05: So how did you obtain it?
16:49
SPEAKER_05: Who who recreated this without my permission?
16:52
SPEAKER_05: Like, I would have been legit asking questions and like, yeah, I you're very professional.
16:58
SPEAKER_04: I obviously like I would have been like livid and freaking out, but I mean I mean, there's a point that you just like the kids at both studios I taught at, like, you're not allowed to post your stuff until the next season.
17:10
SPEAKER_04: So they can't post anything.
17:11
SPEAKER_04: And you guys have met Amanda Please so like she's on it, right?
17:14
SPEAKER_04: And there's just no, like, you can have a I think a certain second count of a video, but it can't have the music.
17:20
SPEAKER_04: Like, there are stipulations at either studio that were different.
17:23
SPEAKER_04: So it's like new season, knew you, like you're better than we're you just have to you can throw a tantrum now, but like we're not at a level where anything's gonna happen with this.
17:33
SPEAKER_04: So interesting.
17:35
SPEAKER_05: I think like that that um thing that you just mentioned, which I'm sure we can dig into a little bit later, but like just the fact that most studios have in their agreements that the parents and the kids aren't allowed to post full videos is for the protection of the choreographers as well.
17:52
SPEAKER_05: And I don't think that parents understand that.
17:54
SPEAKER_05: They're like, well, I want to post my daughter solo, it's so beautiful.
17:57
SPEAKER_05: I'm sure it's great, but you don't know who's watching that and you don't know who's who's screen grabbing that, and then is going to recreate and teach it, and you're gonna see your daughter solo on stage next season.
18:07
SPEAKER_05: Like, do you really want that?
18:08
SPEAKER_05: No.
18:09
SPEAKER_04: So that opens the argument of I paid for it, it's mine.
18:12
SPEAKER_04: That you don't have a can of worms.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're gonna get right on there.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Yep, exactly.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: Amy, what about you?
18:21
SPEAKER_02: I've definitely had my work stolen a handful of times as well.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: I've been a teacher since I was 18, so it started around when I was 20 that I noticed my work being stolen, but it was always after I parted ways with a studio that as soon as I left, I already had routine set, and my name was then removed from it, and they put a different choreographer's name on it because they say that it's the studio that owns it, but it's not anywhere is in a contract.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: So I could have took a legal action against it, but at times it's just not worth it, especially if you're moving on with your life.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: And I was young at the time too, when it first happened to me.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: There was one studio I worked for and I left, and then they used it as a talent showpiece the following year and for their competition season and publicly stated a different choreographer's name.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: So there, but I had video evidence and I was young and I didn't really know.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's also part of it too, when it goes into a studio, is a lot of the teachers when they first started, they're young.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: They just came out of a studio atmosphere from being a student that they don't know what their rights are.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: Right.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Especially if it's an employee versus an independent contractor sort of deal.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: They don't know what they're entitled to and they take a lot of things for face value because sometimes they go back and teach at a studio that they grew up in.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: So they're trusting whoever the owner is or the teachers that they have their best interests, but sometimes that's not always the case.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: And then it was the same thing recently, which was part or the reason why I study art management with art and entertainment law, that I was going through a choreography copyright situation as I was parting ways from a studio where I had three routines get capita for another two years.
19:56
SPEAKER_05: Oh wow.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: And I had students coming up to me in the hallway when I parted ways because I was there supporting another studio um that I had a few students ended up going to.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, We performed your routine, you missed it.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: I was like, You perform by what?
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Which one?
20:11
SPEAKER_02: Knowing that my name got revoked.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, and they were so it goes into a whole thing of at that point who has proper ownership.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Made me want to study a little bit deeper for sure, but I've definitely had those experiences.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: And also sitting on a judge's panel, there's definitely routines that have been in question that if I'm like, this looks really familiar to the point that I can almost say it, like I know what's it's gonna be predictable because I've seen it before and I don't know where I've seen it before, but this like it could be like I'm in New Hampshire, and I remember seeing this summer is like in Tennessee.
20:42
SPEAKER_05: Oh actually, Leslie, didn't that happen to you this summer?
20:47
SPEAKER_05: Um, I I don't know if it was this summer, it was an earlier or I thought it was at Nationals.
20:52
SPEAKER_05: No, I don't think it was at Nationals.
20:54
SPEAKER_05: I'm thinking of something.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: There was there was a scenario where I where I did have to as the director, I had to review a video versus the choreography that we saw on stage.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't judging, but you know, somebody came up to the judges and said, That's my choreography, those aren't my kids.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: What like why what's what are you doing?
21:14
SPEAKER_01: Like what's happening?
21:15
SPEAKER_01: So I ended up having to watch a video of this person's choreography in a music video.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: That person was also there just supporting another studio, but a different studio was doing his choreography that came from this music video.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like trying to compare the two because I didn't see the original piece.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: I looked at the music video, and it was it was one of those things where it was close enough, but some of it was also just vernacular movements that combined in a certain way.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: You nobody has like ownership of this step and this step and this this phrase of combining a step without making it yours.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of what it was where I was like, oh it's close enough that I see where you're coming from, but it's also different enough.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: That like I can't tell you not to use, and it wasn't these steps, but like Shah say pasta bureau, Shah say step in touch.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Like those are just steps.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: You strung them together, they happened to look the same, you know?
22:12
SPEAKER_01: So it also when when you're paying homage, and like Jen, I think we can get into this with some of your work, there is a line.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you have to even for me, like at a dance competition, most of the time I don't know the choreographer.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: It's not written anywhere, it's not announced anywhere, except for at the very end where maybe they award best choreography.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: But like if you want to avoid getting in trouble for even paying homage, you know, X, Y, and Z inspired by Fosse.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: That's the title.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: Put it in the title because otherwise I don't know if you're ripping off Fosse.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: So those are my thoughts on that.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: Well, going along with that, there are certain choreographers, like you bring up Fosse, that you know it's them.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: And they have such a unique way in their choreography, like Brian Friedman and the way he is with his voguing and his whacking, and he literally created his own dance genre to specialize his type of choreography.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: And you'd see Blake McGrath, who studied under Brian Freeman, has taken that as his own inspiration to kind of create his work.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: And then you have somebody like Talia Fabia.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: Her work is so athletic that a lot of contemporary choreographers don't know how to do her work like her.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: And you could see where the inspiration comes from, but you know who you're trying to imitate at times.
23:29
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
23:30
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: So then it's a whole thing of inspiration versus stolen.
23:35
SPEAKER_05: Right.
23:36
SPEAKER_05: And it like and like kind of like what like you we all just kind of mentioned, like, where's the line?
23:41
SPEAKER_05: Because we're doing the steps, which aren't anyone, no one ha o has ownership of these specific dance moves that we're doing.
23:50
SPEAKER_05: It's how long do they have to do them?
23:53
SPEAKER_05: Like in your scenario, Leslie, like if it's two counts of eight, is that considered stolen?
23:58
SPEAKER_05: Or does it have to be at least one minute of the exact identical dance, you know, or the whole thing?
24:05
SPEAKER_05: Like, I don't even know legally, like, you know, on the legal aspect of that, what that would be a question for me, because it's like, I of course, I I put a lot of thought and thought and effort into those two counts of eight.
24:18
SPEAKER_05: I don't want you stealing my two counts of eight.
24:20
SPEAKER_05: Right.
24:20
SPEAKER_05: But I really don't want you stealing my entire dance, or I really don't want you to use an entire one-minute chunk of the choreography that I've put a lot of thought and effort into creating.
24:29
SPEAKER_05: So, you know, two counts of eight, you know, whatever, but like, why I don't know.
24:35
SPEAKER_05: Like, why, why?
24:36
SPEAKER_05: Even in that's my question at the end of the day.
24:38
SPEAKER_05: Like, I don't understand.
24:39
SPEAKER_05: Are you really that you're not creative enough at all to create your own two counts of eight?
24:45
SPEAKER_05: To create your you're gonna spend more time relearning something from a video than it's gonna take for your brain to create something that's brand new and fresh.
24:53
SPEAKER_05: Makes no sense.
24:58
SPEAKER_05: In this section of the episode, we discussed copyright laws pertaining to choreography and gave some incorrect information.
25:05
SPEAKER_05: Making the impact does not give legal advice.
25:07
SPEAKER_05: So if you have questions or concerns with the legality of copyright of your work, please consult an attorney specializing in trademark and copyright law.
25:15
SPEAKER_05: Now let's get back to the discussion.
25:22
SPEAKER_05: Well, I know there's a lot of studios that will like recycle old works of choreography.
25:26
SPEAKER_05: So, like, you know, they'll have this powerhouse dance and then they'll put it to rest for like eight years, and then they have that next group of dancers who are up and coming that they're like, I want to bring back that piece.
25:36
SPEAKER_05: If you had video footage, if you had breakdowns of it, if you have it notated, then it'll be an easier, seamless transition for you to recreate that dance in that next process instead of having to remember what did I do eight years ago and try to like restudy that video briefly that was just a comp video.
25:52
SPEAKER_05: So even in that sense, it could be helpful.
25:55
SPEAKER_05: But I have I have a lot of a lot of thoughts right now.
25:58
SPEAKER_05: I I'm also thinking about what you were talking about, Amy, with the fact that you set a piece at a studio and then you left, but then they continued to use your work without crediting you.
26:10
SPEAKER_05: I think it's the crediting aspect of that scenario that you're talking about because at that point it feels stolen because they're attaching someone else's name to it.
26:19
SPEAKER_05: Even though you don't teach there anymore, it's just the fact that you're not being properly credited.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's like going into say an art gallery.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: You're buying a piece of art doesn't mean the artwork is yours.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: You don't get to say this is you can legally say this is my painting, but you didn't create that painting was not done.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: You didn't create it.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: Right.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: So there's still some ownership rights to that.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: Which I just think that, like you were saying, that you've definitely been, you know, been but by going to studios and having things happen.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's just us the choreographers, we are so given, like giving with our work that we don't sometimes switch into that business mindset that maybe owners, those who are specifically owners of studios will go into that we are just so willing to give our choreography because we enjoy the art of it.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: We don't think about protecting it because we would never think it would be something that would ever have to go to a court system.
27:20
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28:39
SPEAKER_05: And now let's get back to the show.
28:46
SPEAKER_04: I think that's on us too, right?
28:48
SPEAKER_04: Like Courtney, maybe that's something that you think about now is you do so much, you get to do so much guest choreography that you roll in with your own contract.
28:56
SPEAKER_06: Yep.
28:56
SPEAKER_04: That's basically like you're leasing for better for lack of better term, you're leasing my work.
29:01
SPEAKER_04: Right.
29:02
SPEAKER_04: And you can use my work for this amount of time.
29:04
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
29:04
SPEAKER_04: And then my work is null and void to you.
29:06
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
29:07
SPEAKER_04: And that's something maybe we need to start as you know, people get uh smarter and and learn more and have more access to things that we protect ourselves better.
29:16
SPEAKER_05: And that being said, that's a great point because that's where I've kind of got stuck in the creation of my own contract.
29:23
SPEAKER_05: Because after I did learn some lessons, I was like, all right, gonna go into this season with the contract in hand, I'm gonna present this contract.
29:29
SPEAKER_05: And that's where I got stuck is the duration of time that it that they are allowed to use.
29:34
SPEAKER_05: Is it one competition season?
29:36
SPEAKER_05: Is it could you reset it again?
29:37
SPEAKER_05: Could you duplicate it next year?
29:39
SPEAKER_05: Could you reset it five years from now?
29:41
SPEAKER_05: Is it yours forever?
29:42
SPEAKER_05: Like, you know, the how long they can use that choreography, and then also how long before I can repurpose that choreography?
29:50
SPEAKER_05: That's the other question.
29:51
SPEAKER_05: Cause like what I was thinking about, Leslie, in on your end, that I was thinking about that sort sort of feels like stolen choreography, but might not have been in this scenario, is if there is a guest choreographer, we've heard this a bunch of times, you they set a solo at that studio and then you see the same solo, or maybe it's maybe more of a group.
30:10
SPEAKER_05: You see the same group routine being completed, you know, in mid in the Midwest region by a whole different studio.
30:17
SPEAKER_05: And you're wondering, is it is that stolen choreography, or did that guest just duplicate their work at two different studios?
30:25
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
30:25
SPEAKER_05: Which And did anybody know about that?
30:28
SPEAKER_05: And exactly.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: And now like now I'm remembering what you're talking about.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and I believe that that particular choreographer probably didn't tell anybody, probably assumed nobody would notice, and did it twice on two different studios in completely different regions.
30:43
SPEAKER_05: Or like in the duration of time between that like felt like it might not notice.
30:47
SPEAKER_05: Right.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, and I just, you know, and and how how how are you how are we to know as a judge, as a director, as an outsider?
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know if you had a an agreement with these studios that said, yeah, no problem, you can reuse your choreography.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: And you know, then it comes into the sort of questioning of like, do we as contemporary meaning current choreographers of dance competition?
31:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, listen, there's there's some amazing competitive choreographers out there.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm not knocking anybody.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: There's some amazing, amazing people.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: But are we gonna have rep now?
31:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, is it just that I, Leslie Miller, choreographed this one piece and my rep is so good that, like, here, everyone can do it.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: Just you like I that feels a little like we all think very highly of ourselves.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: And again, not knocking anybody, but like we are not Fosse.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: We are not the West Side Story Jerome Robbins, like we are not, that is not yet who we are.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Maybe some of us will become that one day, and in 50 years, somebody will pay homage to Leslie Mueller's car wash.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: But the Wells car wash or the car wash for everything.
31:49
SPEAKER_04: I think that also brings up like we maybe don't think enough of ourselves.
31:54
SPEAKER_04: Right.
31:55
SPEAKER_04: Like, if I'm not, like I'm not gonna take, I know Leslie, you got to judge one of my pieces last summer.
32:00
SPEAKER_04: I would not take my sweet little duet, my homage to Tap Dan's version of Fossi, and do it anywhere else because it's not gonna get better than that.
32:08
SPEAKER_04: Like that was the best that piece is gonna be.
32:11
SPEAKER_04: And it's not gonna be the same like I would never I have enough faith in my work that I would never take it to somewhere else.
32:18
SPEAKER_04: Well, and the other thing is, and that's a disservice to the kids also.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's there's a difference, and we have to always talk about this for many reasons, but competition is there to be reviewed, judged, scored, and given a placement.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Performance is a whole nother ball game.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: So if you wanted to take that piece, Jen, which was so cute and wonderful, and homage to who got the pain, and it was so good, and put that in a concert in five years that was only there for presentation.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Cool, great, amazing, perfect.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: It's your work, do it on somebody else.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: That cool.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: But to then put it into another competitive environment, like you said, it it was what it was at that point in time.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: That's who you created it for.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: It was there for that sole purpose of being adjudicated.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: It's done.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Put it in the vault.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: It was so good, you know?
33:08
SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
33:09
SPEAKER_05: I mean, I do think that there are some of those pieces that as a choreographer, you know you put so much work, time, thought, effort, uh, artistry into developing it.
33:20
SPEAKER_05: And it's a piece that you are really proud of, not even just the execution from the dancers, the actual if you if you take that out of it, what you created visually and artistically, and you and how much I mean, you probably spent t so many hours developing this, tweaking this, and you see the final product, and you're like, wow, this is one of my like this is my best work.
33:40
SPEAKER_05: Why should it have to go in the vault?
33:42
SPEAKER_05: Like, if it, you know, like like I I think there's a time and place when it can go it should go into the vault for a little minute, but I don't think it needs to forever.
33:51
SPEAKER_05: And if it does come out of the vault, it should be that choreographer resetting that piece and having the right amount of time between it.
34:00
SPEAKER_05: So there's not like I mean, I I personally think it should be at like at least a five-year put in the vault.
34:06
SPEAKER_05: It might be able to like come back after five years, but I don't think that a choreographer should go and set a piece at a studio and then next season duplicate that piece somewhere else, or even in the second two seasons after that duplicate.
34:18
SPEAKER_05: It's too close.
34:20
SPEAKER_05: There's judges everywhere, judges are judging all over the country.
34:23
SPEAKER_05: You never know who's sitting behind that table, you never know if that person was at that other competition that judged this dance already two years ago in another region.
34:30
SPEAKER_05: Like, you just don't know.
34:31
SPEAKER_05: So why risk it?
34:32
SPEAKER_05: Like, I think on the choreographer's end, for the ones that do this, they're probably like, Well, I put so much time into this, and this did so great, so I'm gonna put it on these dancers because these dancers are even better than the dancers that I did before.
34:43
SPEAKER_05: So they're gonna really deliver it, and they were like, they were like my test trial over here, and now I'm gonna like really nail it with this studio.
34:50
SPEAKER_05: Like, and then you know, whatever, but also I just don't think that like you got kind of were saying, Jen, it's not not really fair to the students.
34:57
SPEAKER_05: Like, I it I I don't and or the studio too.
35:00
SPEAKER_05: It's you're getting recycled work, and like as a choreographer, I would be upfront with them about that.
35:05
SPEAKER_05: And I would be like, I've already set this at another studio before.
35:08
SPEAKER_05: It's I feel like the time has passed.
35:10
SPEAKER_05: There's been enough time in between where I feel like it's I can bring this back.
35:13
SPEAKER_05: Here's a video of it.
35:14
SPEAKER_05: What do you think?
35:15
SPEAKER_05: Do you think that this you know what I mean?
35:16
SPEAKER_05: Like, really sell it in that way, instead of just like going around and being like keeping it hush hush that you've already set this dance five times at another studio.
35:24
SPEAKER_05: Like, come on.
35:25
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's like a teacher in school, they're gonna teach the same math project, right, to the first graders every single year.
35:30
SPEAKER_04: We're gonna teach the same set of skills and set of curriculums, but the thing that they teach has to be based on the kids in the classroom.
35:38
SPEAKER_04: You can't teach it the same way year after year after year.
35:41
SPEAKER_04: So you can't take the same choreography and just bump it to new kids.
35:46
SPEAKER_04: They're not getting to learn the way that they need to learn.
35:49
SPEAKER_04: And at the end of the day, aren't we all here to teach kids?
35:52
SPEAKER_03: Aren't we all here to teach kids how to dance?
35:54
SPEAKER_03: That's the crux of what we do.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: And then that like goes into I know when I've sat behind Judge Table, I've saw at least six jazz routines that look the same, but it's because they're all doing progressions that they've been learning.
36:07
SPEAKER_06: Right.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: Which at that point, you judge based off of what you see.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: And us as judges, we are there just to once state our critiques, give the scores, like we said.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: Anything that happens behind that curtain and behind that stage, we're not a part of.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: We're at the table seeing what we're seeing, and we judge based off that.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: So anybody that thinks it's on a judge, it really isn't because we don't know.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: We go to our judge's room, we're not part of the backstage world, you know, but it's progressions at the end of the day.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: And at that point, like I know a lot of choreographers, like with my pieces, anything I've ever said at a studio, a lot of times we're working through our own personal stuff and we have a personal attachment to that choreography.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: So at that point, it becomes very hurtful when that choreography gets taken because it was more than just choreography at that point.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: Right.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean, all of a sudden it starts becoming a personal thing, but it really is up to the choreographers and the studio owners have everything in writing.
37:05
SPEAKER_02: If we learned anything from cancel culture, have receipts, have things in writing, have your timestamps.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: It's going to save you.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: And then it's also up to the choreographers if they care to if the studio uses it or not.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: I know I've ran into an incident where there was a letter, a cease and assist letter, sent to a family when they left the studio that they weren't allowed to perform the choreography choreography.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: It was sent from the studio owner, not the choreographer.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: And the choreographer was like, do what you want with it.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: I really don't care, but I'm not signing off and I'm not getting involved.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: So at that point, it it's just get your receipts.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: That's like the biggest thing.
37:43
SPEAKER_05: With your receipts, now here's my next question is like what kind of action can actually be taken?
37:51
SPEAKER_05: Is is kind of where I want to know.
37:53
SPEAKER_05: Like, if we have receipts in in the scenario of of Jenger office, uh, you know, you what you your students watched their ta their dance at a competition, what happens at the competition?
38:05
SPEAKER_05: Like, do we pres do you uh if you wanted to pursue it, in this scenario you didn't, but if you were Courtney and I was going to pursue it, do you go to the competition director and say, uh, I just want to inform you that this other studio is doing my choreography that I did last year and I just watched it, my students watched it.
38:23
SPEAKER_05: I can show proof that it's mine, like in the scenario, like you said, Leslie, like the one, the one studio.
38:29
SPEAKER_05: What happens?
38:30
SPEAKER_05: Does that does anyone even care?
38:31
SPEAKER_05: Does the stud does the competition actually handle anything?
38:34
SPEAKER_05: Like, do you I I I don't I don't ever think that a dance has been disqualified because it was ripped off choreography.
38:41
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's the tough part, right?
38:44
SPEAKER_04: Like you have to pick your battles of okay, is this a fight?
38:48
SPEAKER_04: Like for me in the situation last year, this isn't a worthwhile fight for me.
38:52
SPEAKER_04: It's a recreational tap duet versus my previous, like non-recreational tap duet, which is why this duet maybe wasn't doing so great because the content was too hard.
39:02
SPEAKER_04: Like there is just a point that you have to be like, this is not my fight.
39:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like it's not worth this.
39:08
SPEAKER_04: However, there are pieces that stick in your memory, right?
39:12
SPEAKER_04: So there's um for example, my favorite movie is Pride and Prejudice 1995 with Garrett Knightley.
39:18
SPEAKER_04: It is the best movie, it is the greatest, okay?
39:20
SPEAKER_04: So there was a studio that did Rihanna's day, and it was the ballroom scene where he touches the ribbon on her dress.
39:27
SPEAKER_04: And it was so this had to be 10 years ago.
39:30
SPEAKER_04: It is it was the most beautiful piece.
39:33
SPEAKER_04: And the boy in the number like touches the ribbon on the girl's dress, and you're just like, oh my god, they're doing it.
39:39
SPEAKER_04: This is the greatest thing ever.
39:40
SPEAKER_04: And it was so good.
39:41
SPEAKER_04: And there is to this day, I cannot watch a piece to that song without being like, oh, that piece was so good, right?
39:50
SPEAKER_04: And if someone in that case, that would have been like a contender for a national title for like national dance honors or like something that is more monetary, where if I was the choreographer of that piece and now you're gonna make money off of my concept and idea, right?
40:06
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's um I feel like there's been so many.
40:09
SPEAKER_04: It was it uh Nick Van Young that did the American pie top dance that was just out of this world.
40:15
SPEAKER_04: Like if someone rips that off and then they're gonna make prize money on it, or they're gonna gain students off of it, that's when I think you have to say, Hey, that was mine, and you're about to give them five thousand dollars.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: Right, I'll take that.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
40:30
SPEAKER_04: I'll take that thank you.
40:31
SPEAKER_04: That was my work.
40:32
SPEAKER_04: So if there's something that is that like momentous of a moment, then I think that's the battle you can choose.
40:40
SPEAKER_04: But then knowing the repercussions of that are like maybe these two studios are in the same town, and now we have this fight to fight forever.
40:47
SPEAKER_04: Is it not it not is it worth it?
40:49
SPEAKER_04: Because our work, I really believe that our work and our worth and all of that is always worth it, but you're gonna now deal with this for years.
40:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:58
SPEAKER_04: So what is that worth to you?
41:00
SPEAKER_04: You know, there's a totally almost like a yogic, like, okay, I'm gonna Nava stay out of this and y'all do what you're doing.
41:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's so it's such a fine line.
41:10
SPEAKER_05: It's super tough.
41:12
SPEAKER_05: But I think, like, in my head, if if you're a studio that intentionally stole someone else's work, took the time to record it, took the time to screen grab it, took the time to then reteach yourself the choreography to then learn it off a you like I don't have time for that.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: I this is where I do not understand.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's so all of us probably, we I have had to learn show choreography off of video.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: First of all, that's unfair because that's unpaid time.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Secondly, if you are the one like it's hard.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: It is very difficult to learn when nobody's breaking it down for you.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: They're just doing the dance.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: Some of these kids probably aren't even doing it right.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: So if you are like, what drives somebody to take the time out of their schedule?
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Also, again, it is unpaid time.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're getting paid for that 45-minute rehearsal where you're teaching the choreography that you learned in an hour that was an unpaid hour of your day.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: I just don't understand.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: Someone help me understand.
42:12
SPEAKER_04: I think it comes into lack of confidence too, right?
42:15
SPEAKER_04: Like, if I don't believe in my ability as a teacher, then I'm gonna go to someone.
42:21
SPEAKER_04: Maybe my musical theater pieces aren't doing well, and I my confidence is so shot, and I'm not doing the care for myself and my creativity that I need to do.
42:30
SPEAKER_04: So I'm gonna go watch some Courtney videos and I'm just gonna string that together, and all of a sudden I have a Courtney solo that I made, you know, like and that's the fine line of like how much maybe Courtney taught a great BBC jazz class, so I'm gonna I'm gonna take that class in my garage for me, and oops, it just popped out in myography.
42:48
SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
42:49
SPEAKER_04: I think we have to be better about as choreographers holding ourselves accountable.
42:53
SPEAKER_04: You can't take someone's classwork or performance work and just dump it into choreography and call it your own.
42:58
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
42:58
SPEAKER_04: You have to do the work to better yourself and make your vocabulary bigger so you can have your own ideas and credit appropriately.
43:06
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: And that's like the biggest thing because we saw that with all the TikTok controversies that you know, all these TikTok stars are getting these brand deals and everything off of videos that they were repeating choreography, but they never credited the people the people that created it.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: And it became a huge, huge thing across the scene.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, the choreographers they just want their credits.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: Where it's doing.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: I know I've been guilty of it in the past where, you know, once the work has been passed on, after they choreographed it, hey, this isn't working, this isn't working, this isn't working.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: Can you just change it?
43:40
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm, you know, the students are like, I'm not getting the owner saying it just doesn't look right, you need to change it.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: But there's never the conversation with the choreographer if it's okay.
43:48
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
43:49
SPEAKER_02: And that's where it becomes that gray area where it's once that choreographer sets the piece, do they just release their hands and go, okay, I said it, whatever happens, happens.
43:58
SPEAKER_05: Right.
43:59
SPEAKER_02: But then that goes back.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Of the contracts and what they want the ending product to be shown.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: That if their name's on this piece, what do they actually want to be able to see?
44:07
SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of these competitions, and if you look in the rules and regulations of a lot of these competitions, it says nothing about if your work is stolen or possibly stolen.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: This is your next steps.
44:17
SPEAKER_02: These are the rules, because there are no rules in competition against it, unfortunately.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: At least in the competition rules I've I've read.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: That's a great I haven't seen anything.
44:24
SPEAKER_05: I want to now go look at the competition rules because I have a feeling that you're correct that most don't have that rule in there.
44:30
SPEAKER_05: And the and then that should be, that should be a rule.
44:34
SPEAKER_05: However, I will say a lot of comps don't actually follow through with their rules.
44:38
SPEAKER_05: But regardless, it should at least be there.
44:40
SPEAKER_05: So you can f you can actually go up and when you go up to Leslie the director and says, Hey, Leslie, that's my dance on stage, that Leslie the director can decide at that point how to move forward with it because it actually is a rule in writing.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think the hard part about that too is just like with levels, almost every competition, yeah, there's something in writing, but usually that that writing says, We trust you, the teacher, to make the right decision.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, I trust you to not steal choreography, but you came in here and stole it anyway.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think the honor system works as well as we as a community would like it to.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: Because of course, we all we are all here to teach kids dance.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: That's what we all say we're here to do, all of us.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: And but that all like we are also here to teach life skills.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: We're also here to teach how to be on time, how to be a kind person, how to be a team worker, like you see people, kids and studio owners alike all at all times acting unlike that, you know.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: So it's I I I wish I uh I do have high hopes for the community, but based on what we see year in and year out with the levels debacle every time, you know, I would also like my thing if I was a director and have had that situation happen, you know, bring bring me the receipts.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: If you can show me today before the award ceremony, a video and I will watch the video we just saw, I I'll I can make a determination.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: I can do my very best to make a determination.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: But like, what happens when you can't show me a video?
46:02
SPEAKER_01: What happens if I'm trying to take you at your word?
46:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know whether you have that rivalry with that studio from down the street.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's, I don't know.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: I wish I could trust people more, is what I'm saying.
46:13
SPEAKER_05: And just on that, like kind of like what I was saying before and like what you mentioned, Jen, about like, is it worth it to get into this heated discussion with this studio?
46:21
SPEAKER_05: And like, but in that scenario, you Leslie could be the middleman to actually control that environment.
46:28
SPEAKER_05: I know, sorry.
46:31
SPEAKER_05: But like maybe make it like a respectable, like professional conversation between these two rival studios instead of it being with two head-to-head.
46:42
SPEAKER_05: That's why Leslie's the director, is because I just try to mediate everything.
46:45
SPEAKER_05: That's my job.
46:46
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
46:47
SPEAKER_05: So I mean, of course, I don't want that to happen, but I think that could be a good way to approach it.
46:50
SPEAKER_05: Like, like you said, if they have the diverse seats, you could bring the other studio owner here, and then you could kind of be the mediator in between to kind of resolve this and then discuss this is how we're planning to take action.
46:59
SPEAKER_05: And then they can have beef after that if they want to, but at least it was it made sense.
47:03
SPEAKER_05: It was like the higher up the authority figures of the competition that you're paying money to attend is actually the one calling the shots and making the rules and following through with them.
47:11
SPEAKER_05: Like no one could be mad at that at that point.
47:13
SPEAKER_04: Right.
47:14
SPEAKER_04: I think it's interesting we talk too about like what can the competitions do.
47:18
SPEAKER_04: I know we kind of like briefly touched on that, but as I'm like listening and like processing, right?
47:23
SPEAKER_04: And wheels are training, they're I think it's hard when you set your kids up for this came from that.
47:30
SPEAKER_04: So when someone asks you who choreographed this, like this is a conversation I had with my little Fosse duet, who's your choreographer?
47:36
SPEAKER_04: The choreographer is Jen Garatha, and this was inspired by Bob Fosse.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that comes out of your mouth.
47:42
SPEAKER_04: That is what it is.
47:43
SPEAKER_04: But when the host says, Who's your choreographer?
47:45
SPEAKER_04: Jen Garapha, okay, thank you so much, and they move away.
47:47
SPEAKER_04: And the kids don't have time.
47:49
SPEAKER_04: I know I have been at competitions where like a musical theater solo or a musical theater group, and the host, I want to say it was Shake the Ground, and they're just like very educational, you know, education first.
48:01
SPEAKER_04: And the host said, Hey, do you know what musical this is from?
48:05
SPEAKER_04: And the kids would say, I think it's wicked.
48:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's wicked.
48:08
SPEAKER_04: Do you know who the choreographer on that was?
48:10
SPEAKER_04: Did your teacher did you get to learn that yet?
48:12
SPEAKER_04: And the kids would say, No, we didn't talk about it.
48:15
SPEAKER_04: And then the host would say, The choreographer on Wicked is this, and your teacher did such a great job of paying tribute to them.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: Or I love that.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
48:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like, and I think that's kind of the way to like, Oh, you're doing cell block tango, which is an interesting choice for you, but will be done.
48:31
SPEAKER_04: Who's the original choreographer of that?
48:34
SPEAKER_04: Do you know?
48:34
SPEAKER_04: Like, and then that can lead you into, you know, whatever.
48:37
SPEAKER_04: And the same with classical ballet variations.
48:39
SPEAKER_04: Who choreographed this?
48:40
SPEAKER_04: This Susie, actually, it was Parishna Copper.
48:43
SPEAKER_04: Thank you for that.
48:44
SPEAKER_04: Oh gosh.
48:45
SPEAKER_04: You know, like, and that's part of the education that the kids need to be getting, and that sets them up to stand up for themselves.
48:52
SPEAKER_04: Like, hey, Miss Courtney, this dance looks a lot like that dance that the other studio did last year.
48:57
SPEAKER_04: Like, that was a really good dance.
48:58
SPEAKER_04: Are we doing that?
48:59
SPEAKER_04: And then their teacher might go, huh?
49:01
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, maybe we shouldn't back the pedal, right?
49:04
SPEAKER_04: Like, so maybe it's just a matter of and it's a multi-year process of empowering the kids to be educated in what they are actually doing without being lemmings follow off the cliff, just like jumping.
49:16
SPEAKER_03: Because they were told to, yeah.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: I know, like a lot of times during my critiques, if I end up seeing something that I'm like, okay, I know I've seen this in a music video.
49:25
SPEAKER_02: I see that this is very, you know, royal dance crew.
49:28
SPEAKER_02: Like it looks exactly the same formations.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: I'll mention in a critique.
49:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is I love this Jana Jackson vibe.
49:35
SPEAKER_02: This reminds me of this.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: So it holds that teacher and the choreographer and the students accountable, being like, okay, here's the inspiration.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: She knows where it's coming from.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: We we see where you're trying to go with it.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: But the thing is too, we have to understand with competition, the only time a choreographer really gets recognized is during a best choreography.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: When the student has to announce it on stage, or if there's a special judges award that is specifically for choreography.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: Right.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: The competition circuit isn't made for choreographers.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: Right.
50:09
SPEAKER_02: It's made for students.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: Because it's their first, in all honesty, it's their first steps into knowing what an audition process is like.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: And being able to step in front of a panel of judges, perform their routine.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: Do they win?
50:21
SPEAKER_02: Do they not?
50:21
SPEAKER_02: Do they get hired?
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Do they get not?
50:24
SPEAKER_02: So if I think a lot of competitions, if they are going to, I understand like us as freelancers, we want to get hired again.
50:32
SPEAKER_02: So we want to be able to utilize our work and be like, oh, we won best choreography at A, B, and C competition.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
50:39
SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, the competitions are not for the choreographers.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: So if studios are stealing choreography, why?
50:46
SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, it's just a question of why.
50:49
SPEAKER_02: And is it because you're burnt out and you're just, we've all been there where we're just so burnt out, we're like, I don't know what else to do.
50:55
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what else I can produce right now.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: And you saw something at Nationals, you're like, I really liked their staging.
51:01
SPEAKER_02: I liked what they did.
51:02
SPEAKER_02: Let's try to do something like that.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: And it just ends up almost turning into the same piece because it's so fresh in your mind, they have nothing else to come up with.
51:10
SPEAKER_05: Just lack of creativity.
51:11
SPEAKER_05: I mean, if you lit if you truly think you have to steal something to be creative, I don't know if this is the job for you.
51:18
SPEAKER_05: Like, you know, we are artists, we are creators.
51:21
SPEAKER_05: There's a lot of people who are really great educators, there are a lot of people who are really great business owners, and there's a lot of people where they are not great choreographers, and that's just not in their skill set.
51:30
SPEAKER_05: And it feels like it's almost a requirement as part of being a dance teacher for a competitive studio that you also now have to become a choreographer.
51:38
SPEAKER_05: And if that's not your skill set, then please say, I, you know what, I just really don't feel super comfortable choreographing this.
51:46
SPEAKER_05: I would love to just stick to the recital choreography.
51:48
SPEAKER_05: I don't feel like I'm gonna be able to give deliver what you your expectations are for my studio in the choreography element.
51:55
SPEAKER_05: And that does not mean that you should go online and steal choreography from other people because you're not creative enough.
52:01
SPEAKER_05: That means you need to continue to keep working on that skill set for you, work with the recreational dancers, work on the recital choreography until you feel confident and ready to produce something for cor for competition.
52:11
SPEAKER_05: And to be honest, it's weird.
52:13
SPEAKER_05: I've seen like the stolen choreography thing happen in your scenario, Jen, like you produce something to a competitive levels team, and then a recreational studio is now duplicating it.
52:22
SPEAKER_05: And that's because they're in it, they're a little more inexperienced, they didn't, they didn't really have the creativity.
52:27
SPEAKER_05: They saw this really amazing uh product of a highly competitive studio that they're now trying to think that it's okay to duplicate onto their recreational dancers.
52:36
SPEAKER_05: And again, it wasn't created for you, so it's not gonna turn out how you thought it was going to, and it's not gonna score well just because the choreography is good, because the technique isn't there because your dancers can't execute it.
52:45
SPEAKER_05: But then there's also those really, really high, amazing, huge powerhouse studios that you should know better than to to steal choreography.
52:54
SPEAKER_05: And then that's the hard part for us again.
52:57
SPEAKER_05: We're going back to was it stolen or was it reproduced by that same choreographer?
53:02
SPEAKER_05: We don't really know.
53:03
SPEAKER_05: And I think that we as judges, I personally think that we should know who choreographs each dance.
53:09
SPEAKER_05: I would like to be able to see that.
53:10
SPEAKER_05: I think that we can we can control that a little bit more if we see.
53:14
SPEAKER_05: I think that competitions think that we don't need to see that because they don't want our perspective uh to be skewed into how we approach it initially right off the bat, as to, oh, this is a Courtney Ortiz stance.
53:25
SPEAKER_05: Well, it better be fair.
53:26
SPEAKER_05: It's like and then you see it and it was tragic, and then and then everyone's like, oh god, Courtney's choreography really went downhill.
53:32
SPEAKER_05: You know, like you you don't want people to be approaching it like that or having you know lower higher expectations and things, you know, or this is gonna get first because it's this choreographer.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: Like I can see both sides of it, but also what kind of irks me is occasionally at at certain nationals, they will announce the choreographer because it's nationals and like it's a little higher level of everything.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: But when they announce when when the studio has clearly put for every single piece choreographed by the faculty of X, Y, and Z Dance Studio.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: Your whole faculty didn't choreograph this dance.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: You were trying to like sway me or like not sway me because you don't want me to know that either that was a guest or that was your home teacher.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I don't enjoy about that either.
54:16
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, it could go one way where it's like, ooh, Courtney Ortiz's dances are so good.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm and that's gonna or or now I don't know, and now I'm annoyed because you didn't tell me because you told me the whole faculty choreographed this dance.
54:26
SPEAKER_01: No, they didn't.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: You couldn't get them all in a room at the same time.
54:29
SPEAKER_04: So, like I mean it's interesting that's one of the things that um and it and you just had invotion dance project on the studio satellite, right?
54:37
SPEAKER_04: But it's one of the things that Amanda has always said this is in her faculty is I can't speak highly enough, but it is always a team.
54:45
SPEAKER_04: So like I'm gonna set the tap piece, but then Max is gonna take it and Max is gonna do arms.
54:50
SPEAKER_04: I don't do arms.
54:51
SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you've seen my stuff, but there's no arms.
54:54
SPEAKER_04: So Max is gonna take it and he's gonna deal with that, and then Emily's gonna take it and she's gonna help them with a different aspect of it, and I'm gonna take the contemporary dance and we're gonna work on rhythm.
55:04
SPEAKER_04: And then and we're and we rotate.
55:07
SPEAKER_04: So there is a point that like uh this tap piece was choreographed by uh Jen Grapha and the IMDP staff because the whole staff contributed to that piece, even though the footwork is mine or the contemporary work is Julie's, but uh I went in and did rhythm and we worked on accenting with me.
55:26
SPEAKER_04: So then there is that like crossover of like we're gonna acknowledge the main person and also the full staff because this staff has actually worked as a team.
55:36
SPEAKER_04: Now, that being said, there's other studios that I'm the only tech teacher, no one else is touching my stuff, and it's like the entire faculty, and I'm like, it is not actually right, right, it's not them.
55:46
SPEAKER_04: And then I wanted to touch back on the burnout and creativity because as a teacher who I mean two years ago I put out 25 pieces that were all tap pieces, and then they were like, Let's throw in a musical theater, like let's just there were some other stuff in there that and I was experiencing like clinical grade burnout.
56:07
SPEAKER_04: Like we were, it was rough and it was terrible.
56:09
SPEAKER_04: And I said, I just need something basic.
56:12
SPEAKER_04: Like I cannot, I I I'm not creative, but I have to do this thing where I had to find inspiration, and I think that's the line of are we being inspired by or are we taking from?
56:24
SPEAKER_04: Right.
56:25
SPEAKER_04: So I knew I was gonna set jet set because I swore I would never touch jet set because everybody knows jet set.
56:30
SPEAKER_04: I love jet set.
56:33
SPEAKER_04: It's so cute, it's so cute.
56:34
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, I'm gonna do this.
56:36
SPEAKER_04: There's so much to work with.
56:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we're gonna dress like flight attendants because that's what you're gonna do, right?
56:40
SPEAKER_04: In that one blue costume that everybody wears.
56:42
SPEAKER_04: In that one blue costume.
56:45
SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, but I went on, you know, I went, I gave myself two hours and I sat and I YouTube that piece in like novice recreational, seven to nine year olds, and I watched two hours of footage of like, okay, where have people taken this?
57:00
SPEAKER_04: I like that this went on and off.
57:02
SPEAKER_04: I like that this was a great idea of a chin stand variation.
57:06
SPEAKER_04: I like in this piece, this was a good idea of this, so that then I could turn everything off, go in my garage and make my piece because I had inspiration for a non-tap dance for like my creative burnout.
57:18
SPEAKER_04: Right.
57:18
SPEAKER_04: So that is the like there are tools that we can use, but that doesn't mean I like that piece with the seven-foot airplane, and I'm gonna go build that airplane and we're gonna put three kids on the way.
57:28
SPEAKER_04: I got like right.
57:29
SPEAKER_04: There has to be a point that as a creator, we can find inspiration and then turn it off and allow ourselves to be inspired.
57:36
SPEAKER_04: Right.
57:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that's a big difference.
57:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I completely agree with that.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: And kind of touch it based on the same thing.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: I feel like a lot of burnt out, especially for teachers and in like in-house studio choreographers, our entire life is surrounded by dance that we forget to be a student.
57:52
SPEAKER_02: We forget to learn.
57:54
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
57:54
SPEAKER_02: And I know I've ran into that where I've hit a wall, and I'm like, when was the last time I just went and took a class?
58:00
SPEAKER_02: And then I went and took one of my friends' classes, went back the following week, was inspired, went to a convention for the week and seminars, came back knowing what I needed to do.
58:08
SPEAKER_02: Right.
58:09
SPEAKER_02: And it's because of the fact that I hit a wall because I have used up everything I've learned up to there.
58:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
58:15
SPEAKER_02: What else do we need to do now to one motivate the students, push them, but uh now I don't know what else to teach them because I've run out of all my tools.
58:25
SPEAKER_02: Right.
58:25
SPEAKER_02: And that's our responsibility as educators and choreographers that we have to continuously learn in order to push our students to learn just as much.
58:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I think these kind of conversations.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you have to put on your own oxygen mask and have conversations like these.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, even I feel like this happens almost every time, you know, we have a podcast, is after the fact, you know, one or both of the guests will reach back out and be like, this was so great.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: It was so great to have conversations with like-minded people to get ideas.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you you just you need that community.
58:58
SPEAKER_01: And I do think I agree that if you're in a studio day in and day out, and that is your primary job and that is your primary activity of the week, yeah, that will get you'll burn out of it.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: It's it's tiring, especially if you've been doing it for years.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: And so, Jen, like I'm just glad that you're you're taking your time off from the studio knowing it's gonna make you a better teacher and choreographer later because you're now able, like you're learning the drums.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: Like that's gonna make you like you're already a great tap teacher.
59:23
SPEAKER_01: That's just gonna enhance your skills and it's a thing that you want to do for yourself.
59:27
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, all like circling back to stealing choreography, the reason that probably happens is because people are just tired.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: Like we're tired.
59:37
SPEAKER_01: Everybody is tired.
59:38
SPEAKER_01: And the easiest thing to do when you're tired is just borrow some sugar, you know.
59:42
SPEAKER_01: Like if you can't run out to the store, just borrow some sugar.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: So like I can sort of understand to an extent.
59:47
SPEAKER_05: And like the inexperience aspect of it, like it because even your your uh mention, uh Amy, of like you should now continue to train and be a student.
59:57
SPEAKER_05: Like if you're if you're stealing choreography, to me, that means there's lack of creativity and inex in your inexperience.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_05: So that means that you probably should be training more so you can gain the that experience, so you can become more creative, so you can create new choreography.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_05: And it it all ties in.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_05: And to me, there's truly, there's really no excuse.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_05: I'm I I think that the to round out this this discussion, we have to tell the dance world, whether you're doing competitive dance, whether you're doing a viral dance video, whether you're doing a concept, uh, even professionals have done it and stolen other people's work that there's just it's not worth the risk, and it's not, it's not why do it?
1:00:36
SPEAKER_05: Just don't even worth your integrity.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: Like exactly.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: It is not worth your reputation to get it tarnished by doing something like that.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: Just like plagiarism with, you know, like that can go on your record, like your academic record.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_01: So kids, don't copy the paper, don't use the chat bot to write your paper, and don't steal choreography.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_04: At the end of the day, the season ends, the kids graduate, the kids move on, and you're the person that's gonna stay.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_04: So at the end of the day, the thing that stays is what you do ethically.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_04: So if what you do is become kind of known for taking other people's things, everyone else moves on, and that sticks with you.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_04: So I think what's most important is that we as professionals and as educators have the things stick with us that are great.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_04: And that's our own work and our own integrity and our own level of ethics and professionalism, not okay, I took this thing and now everyone's gonna remember me for that, even though those kids are long gone.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's also going into what is your purpose as you know, a studio owner or a teacher?
1:01:45
SPEAKER_02: Do you want to be a choreographer and get out of the studio life?
1:01:49
SPEAKER_02: Is that why you're pushing so much?
1:01:50
SPEAKER_02: Is that why you're stealing others' choreography that's getting recognized?
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: Because you rather be hired as a choreographer than a teacher.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_02: There's that question as well.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_02: I know I've had a few studios that I'm I've been affiliated with that their ending goal was to get to the dance awards in California to be recognized as a choreographer.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_02: So they kept tying themselves to competition and pushing choreography to a certain competition that could get their them there closer.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_02: But it's a disservice at the end of the day of what your true purpose is of owning a studio and being a teacher.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_02: So it really goes down to what you were saying, Jen, about your morals and your ethics and what the true purpose is of what you are doing.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_02: Because if it is to be a choreographer, then that's fine.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_02: But make that known because you're being it's a disservice to the students at the end of the day.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_05: We hope you enjoyed this week's episode all about stealing choreography.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_05: Be sure to follow our special guests on social media.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_05: You can find Amy at the official Amy Book and Jen at Jen Garota.
1:02:51
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1:03:20
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1:03:25
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1:03:34
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1:03:35
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1:03:39
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1:03:43
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1:03:47
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1:03:54
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1:03:56
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1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: The second half of season four of Making the Impact is moving right along.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_01: Coming up in the next few weeks, stay tuned for our next Spotlight feature, all about headshots and resumes and safety and competitive dance.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_05: Thanks for tuning in to Making the Impact.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_05: We'll see you next week.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_05: Until then, keep dancing.