Latest / IB Unplugged / Students as Co-Creators w/ Arissa Roy

Transcript

Students as Co-Creators w/ Arissa Roy · IB Unplugged

0:00
Of course, like teachers, how to have like their own,
0:03
sort of boundaries for how much they can do.
0:05
They're not supposed to do every job, you know.
0:08
But I think when you realize that,
0:11
educating a child is not just about teaching them math,
0:14
but really supporting them in their learning and growth process,
0:18
that's when the teaching can become even more powerful, in my experience.
0:26
Student Voice and
0:28
student agency is something that we're always hearing about
0:31
in a lot of our different conversations,
0:33
and it shows up in a lot of different ways in schools, from the different
0:37
maybe student council or feedback sessions or things like that,
0:40
but sometimes it is
0:43
more of a display or a superficial integration
0:46
into the way the school runs, rather than a really meaningful one.
0:49
And in this conversation, we want to break that down into ways
0:53
that schools can really understand how to make meaningful change
0:56
with student voice, and have a strong dialog
1:00
between the student body and the school administrators and teachers.
1:04
So today we're talking with Arissa Roy, and I'm so excited
1:08
that we get to chat with her because I first interacted with her,
1:11
or first learned about her, at the IB Global Conference last year.
1:14
She presented on stage, and the entire room of educators
1:18
stood on their feet at the end of her presentation,
1:19
giving her standing applause, because she was just hitting
1:22
all these points that were so resonant with what we try to do in education.
1:26
She's a UWC graduate, a UNESCO Youth representative,
1:30
and she founded a global education equity movement when she was just a teenager.
1:34
So, she definitely understands what it's like to be in a school,
1:37
where you just kind of have a student council and a tokenized
1:41
kind of voice, versus actually doing meaningful change
1:44
and relying on youth voices to make that happen.
1:47
So we're so excited for this episode today,
1:49
and we're really excited that you're here as well.
1:51
Let's dive into it and enjoy this episode of IB Unplugged with Arissa Roy.
2:01
Hi, Arissa, welcome to IB Unplugged.
2:03
We're so glad you're here.
2:04
Hi, John.
2:05
Thank you so much for having me.
2:07
Great to be here with you.
2:09
Absolutely.
2:10
We're looking forward to diving into a good conversation here,
2:13
talking about kind of that gap between schools, saying they value
2:16
student voice and genuinely redesigning systems around that.
2:20
But before we do that, we'd like to do a few warm up questions,
2:23
get to know you a little bit better.
2:24
So, I know that you founded Project Power Global at 14,
2:29
that young of an age, and I'm just kind of interested, like,
2:32
what sort of made you feel like, even at such a young age,
2:35
I can change something. I can do something really meaningful.
2:38
Yeah.
2:39
I think that's a really important question,
2:41
especially, you know, because I think even today, a lot of young
2:46
people are still told, like, you're not old enough
2:49
or you don't have the right tools, or you should just wait till, like,
2:52
you're an adult or actually have, like, more money to do something.
2:57
So very valid question.
2:58
I would say, for me, what really
3:01
pushed me to start Project Power Global, was
3:05
I started it during like the first year of the pandemic.
3:09
So, you know, I was at home.
3:11
But one thing that I was, I mean, obviously, I think most of us were
3:16
very aware of what was happening outside, and I was personally very
3:21
inspired by the selflessness of all of our,
3:25
like, frontline healthcare workers, here in my city in Toronto.
3:29
My mom being one of them.
3:31
And so I really felt like, okay, if those people can go outside and,
3:35
you know, risk their own health and well-being,
3:39
to do good and help others, and why can't I sort of
3:43
do something to advocate for a cause that I care about?
3:46
And so that's kind of when I had the motivation and the strength to
3:51
take the notebook that I wrote in, like, when I was 12,
3:55
after my first trip to India, which is what really inspired me to start,
3:59
you know, advocating for more equitable access to education.
4:03
That of course, there was a gap of those few years.
4:05
So, you know, when I was 14, I had that confidence to go back
4:10
to those ideas I had a few years prior and actually start.
4:14
So, yeah, those are the main things I would say.
4:17
Yeah, I love that.
4:18
I love that. Seeing kind of some other people
4:19
doing some risky stuff and saying, well, why not me?
4:22
I can do that too. Yeah. That's great.
4:24
And then in a lot of your work, you talk about student voice,
4:27
and that's really a theme that we're going to keep coming back
4:29
to in this podcast episode.
4:30
But, for you,
4:33
what do you think Student Voice looks like in a school that really gets it
4:36
right, versus maybe a school that thinks that they get it right?
4:40
I think over the years, as someone who,
4:44
I would say I'm a very chatty person.
4:46
I love talking, I love, you know, asking questions.
4:50
But I think what's
4:51
even more important than actually talking is listening.
4:55
And not just listening, but like, actively listening
4:58
to people and to what they actually need.
5:02
And so in my experience, what,
5:06
you know, a school that
5:09
takes into account
5:11
the voices of their students or their youth, what are they doing?
5:16
They're actively listening to the needs of their students.
5:20
And, I mean, I can give a personal example.
5:24
So when I was at UWC, which stands for United World Colleges,
5:29
which maybe we'll go into a bit more later,
5:33
myself and a few of my peers, we really had
5:38
seen a gap in our community where, you know,
5:41
while we were there for the two years, there was so much happening
5:45
around the world, from conflicts to war,
5:49
you know, many different political issues that had come up, or not
5:55
come up, but even just gotten worse while we were there
5:58
and we didn't know how to really talk about it with our peers,
6:01
because we didn't want to ask the wrong question.
6:03
Right?
6:06
What we did was
6:07
we proposed to our school, like, can we start something called
6:10
the Peace Council, where we basically just set up a space for
6:14
ourselves and our peers to learn how to talk,
6:17
how to ask those questions without maybe offending our friends.
6:22
Because the reality was,
6:23
for those two years, we were surrounded by people from over 80 countries.
6:27
And so, you know, most of the conflicts we were seeing around the world,
6:31
we knew someone from that place who maybe had ties or who had connections.
6:37
And of course, you know, had more of a personal relation to something.
6:41
So, yeah.
6:42
And my school ultimately said, yeah, like, let's do it.
6:45
Let's set this up.
6:46
So I feel like that was an example of
6:49
what real support looks like for youth.
6:52
And I would encourage educators in schools
6:56
to do that more, to basically say like, hey, what do you actually need,
7:00
and not just like set up groups that they feel the students need.
7:04
Because also our needs change really fast, especially in today's world.
7:08
Yeah, that's such an interesting example because that's something that John and
7:11
I have talked about quite a bit.
7:12
We did another podcast episode with somebody about national identities,
7:16
and that was something that John was saying
7:18
was happening at his school, where there'd be people
7:20
from multiple countries that were facing conflict.
7:24
And I think this is also maybe a bit of
7:27
realization afterwards that it was never part of the conversation
7:31
from us of the kind of student up perspective,
7:35
but it was talking about like, how do we train our teachers
7:38
to have these conversations, but I don't, at least,
7:41
I don't remember if we talked about how to train the students
7:44
to ask the right questions,
7:46
because we were saying even the teachers didn't even know how to do this.
7:49
So, I do love that initiative as an example.
7:53
What I'm really inspired by with that is that you obviously
7:56
had a good inspiration of something you really wanted to bring to the table.
7:59
And I think, you know, I'm in a bit of a leadership role at my school.
8:03
And so sometimes I'll have this opportunity
8:05
where students will come want to ask me about bringing something up, but
8:09
like, that's a great idea that you've got there.
8:12
And I'm wondering kind of where that came from.
8:15
And I guess, to what extent did your teachers
8:18
cultivate that or maybe like, make you feel genuinely
8:21
heard, like this is a valuable thing and let's cultivate that out?
8:24
Or was it just sort of purely you and your peers saying,
8:27
we need this, and it's a gap here?
8:28
Like, how did that kind of come about?
8:30
You mean the Peace Council?
8:31
Like what was the main driving force for that?
8:33
Yeah. For example.
8:35
When I tell the story of how
8:37
and why we set up the Peace Council, it always comes back
8:42
to a very personal
8:45
thing that happened where, of course,
8:49
we all probably know what happened, in October 2023,
8:55
when the Israel and Palestine
8:59
situation escalated significantly and
9:03
that was kind of
9:06
a huge topic in the school.
9:09
As soon as, you know, the news came out and everyone was talking about it and,
9:15
at the time and, and now still, two of my best friends
9:20
from UWC, one of them is from Israel, and one of them is from Gaza,
9:24
from Palestine.
9:26
And, you know, that was super
9:30
different for me,
9:32
in terms of what I experienced, you know,
9:36
when those news stories first came out, because I,
9:40
of course, went to check in with both of my friends and,
9:44
you know, it was almost as if I was hearing the same story,
9:49
but from, like, the other, like they were victimizing themselves or,
9:53
like they were switching who's the victim,
9:57
who's actually creating the problem.
9:59
So, it was very interesting, because it was like legitimately word
10:04
for word, the same story, just the sides flipped.
10:08
And so, that was a moment of,
10:12
like, what?
10:13
Because I care about my two friends, but like,
10:15
what is actually happening, and then I have my own personal opinion,
10:19
and then I have the opinion of my family and the news here in Canada.
10:23
And it's like all these things.
10:25
And of course, like I've done my own research historically on things.
10:28
So it's like all these perspectives kind of brewing
10:32
at the same time and you just don't know what to think.
10:35
And then I also realized that most of us at
10:38
the school had the same sort of like reality, right?
10:42
We wanted to check in with our friends, but we didn't know how to say that.
10:46
You know, both my friends lost loved ones,
10:51
over the last few years,
10:53
in their immediate family or extended family and friends.
10:57
So both of them were dealing with grief, in some way or another.
11:00
And of course, like, I'm not here to talk about the political issue
11:04
and that specific conflict, but I think it's an example of how,
11:09
you know,
11:10
there can be multiple perspectives.
11:13
And you have to learn how to make space to listen.
11:17
Because I think listening is the first step for peacebuilding.
11:20
And so that's kind of where we saw a gap in the school.
11:24
There wasn't really a space for that to happen in a safe
11:27
and like maybe even supported environment.
11:30
So, that's kind of why we proposed it, myself and two other friends,
11:36
one of the friends was my Israeli friend, actually.
11:39
So, yeah.
11:41
So, he was part of that.
11:42
And of course, we had sessions where we would have, you know, presentations.
11:48
And whenever we would talk about a conflict, we would make sure that they
11:52
there was both,
11:53
both perspectives or all perspectives represented, however many we could.
11:58
And then in
11:59
terms of your question about, like, the teachers,
12:03
what I found really beautiful is that, first of all, most,
12:06
if not all teachers were very supportive of the idea.
12:09
And, you know, when we first started the council,
12:12
whenever we would do a session, even though it would be at like 7:00 at night,
12:17
which might seem bizarre, like,
12:20
for a day school at UWC, like it's sort of like a life, right?
12:24
So, it's like a community.
12:26
So, you know, we would do sessions at night,
12:29
and even though it's after hours technically,
12:32
our teachers would still show up for the community.
12:35
And I think that was very helpful and very powerful to see.
12:39
And I think what happened, when that occurred,
12:43
is that there was a shift from the teacher being,
12:47
you know, the only educator in the room to the students,
12:51
also having, you know, a say and teaching everyone.
12:55
Because I think that sort of,
12:57
not to bring teachers to the same level as students,
13:01
but I think everyone has a lesson to teach.
13:04
So yeah, sorry, I rambled there for a while.
13:07
No, no, no.
13:07
But in that example that's great,
13:09
because, yes, I think teachers go into the profession
13:13
not just because they're passionate about a subject
13:15
or because they're, you know, inspired by helping young people,
13:18
but because we like learning, like ultimately, we enjoy it.
13:21
We like schools.
13:22
We want to be there.
13:22
And so, you know, I think we get to learn from our, you know, our students as well.
13:28
So, I think that's a really powerful thing.
13:30
I'm glad you brought that out.
13:32
So, this actually lends itself really well to what we're talking about today.
13:36
And let's get into kind of this first segment, because there's an element
13:39
of tokenism, where like, you know, a school is saying like,
13:44
oh, we definitely want to hear
13:45
what students have to say. We want your perspective.
13:48
But then the action is kind of lacking a little bit.
13:50
What does it take to go from like inviting young people
13:53
to speak versus inviting young people to build?
13:57
Like, what you just gave us as an example, you were building something useful there.
14:01
What does it take?
14:02
How do we bridge that divide?
14:04
Well, thanks for the question.
14:05
I think we don't ask that enough.
14:07
And I think sometimes there's just an assumption
14:10
that as long as young people are in the room, then we're fine.
14:13
Like then we've heard them, you know, that's it, right?
14:17
I would say from my experience again,
14:20
as someone who, over the years, has been involved
14:23
with many different organizations, one even being the UN.
14:27
So I now serve on something called the Unesco
14:30
SDG 4 Youth and Student Network, which is basically like,
14:34
I'd like to say it's kind of like a huge youth council for Unesco,
14:37
where we get to do projects with different teams there and also
14:40
really influence some of the policy discussions that happen.
14:45
And so, yeah, I would say
14:47
the three main things to, sort of, go away from tokenism
14:52
to more inclusivity, to more equity for youth is, number one,
14:57
building,
14:59
sort of a sustainable pathway for young people to be involved.
15:03
So not just having, you know, one or two conversations, or one conference,
15:08
or one this, building real like, real positions for young people in spaces,
15:14
that are permanent, that have the same sort of
15:18
level of power,
15:20
I would say, as any other player or person on a certain board.
15:25
Right?
15:27
But what comes with that is,
15:29
obviously, the equity piece, because if you're inviting a young person,
15:34
they might not have as much expertise or experience,
15:38
and might not have as much knowledge in how a certain space works.
15:42
And I can give you an example.
15:44
My first time at the UN, I was like 15 or 16,
15:49
I was really like, overwhelmed.
15:51
Like it was a really scary to be there.
15:55
Because even just like the language that is used in the room,
15:58
sometimes as a 15 year old, you don't know all the terms
16:01
and all the words and all the lingo and all that.
16:03
So it's like, how do you show up for young people
16:08
so that they can be successful in those spaces?
16:11
So, that's kind of the equity piece. So what does that look like?
16:13
It looks like having, you know, support materials to teach young people,
16:17
so that they can learn those skills before inviting them into a space,
16:21
so that they're prepared
16:22
to actually share ideas and to contribute meaningfully to the discussion.
16:28
I think it also looks like
16:30
offering help and that sort of mentorship, but not just
16:34
from an adult to the youth, but also vice versa, like,
16:38
intergenerational sort of support system that you can build.
16:43
And the third, I would say is just,
16:47
you know, making sure that the young people feel like
16:51
they have the support that they need
16:54
if they don't feel welcome in the space, how do you actually ask for help?
16:59
I think asking for help can be really hard.
17:03
So that was like the equity piece.
17:06
I know I was going to say a few other things, but I think I covered most of what
17:09
I wanted to say in terms of the tokenism.
17:12
Sustainable system that goes on.
17:14
It's like a proper position, the equity in terms of access
17:18
to knowledge, access to terminology, being ready for that kind of thing.
17:21
And then, yeah, support.
17:23
Making sure that you're comfortable enough to be heard or to,
17:26
you know, to offer that support in case things get a little bit tricky.
17:29
So tokenism is an area of education which has been discussed
17:33
and evaluated for some time.
17:35
You can see Laura Lundy's model of student voice, which was introduced in 2007.
17:39
She argues that voice alone isn't enough, and that students need a space to express
17:44
views, an audience willing to listen, and a genuine influence over decisions.
17:48
She suggests that many schools can achieve the first two,
17:52
but they really struggle with that last one.
17:54
You could also see Roger Hart's Ladder of Participation from 1992,
17:58
where he argues that authentic participation requires a frame shift
18:02
from young people speaking to young people building.
18:06
So, just a couple of things that might help you along your way.
18:09
Now back to Arissa.
18:10
Yeah, I think I see a lot of it as a loop.
18:14
And you can kind of decide how far along you are
18:18
in how complete your feedback loop is with the students.
18:22
So, it's easiest to create a space for students to speak.
18:29
It's not hard to get a student to start talking.
18:33
That's the easy part.
18:35
The next level is do you have people listening?
18:38
And that's also, I would say most teachers
18:41
want to hear what a student is thinking and what a student
18:46
wants to contribute to the school, to the community.
18:49
But then the third piece that's the hardest is for the student
18:54
to feel like enough meaningful change is happening and enough action
18:58
or building, as you said, is happening
19:01
that makes them want to speak again.
19:04
And that's that core piece that I think is hardest to get right,
19:09
because it means that not only are you listening,
19:12
but you're also committing to doing something about it,
19:15
but making sure you have the
19:18
working structures and ability to do something about it.
19:24
Because if you've already made all the decisions,
19:27
your budgets are closed,
19:29
your plans are finished, all of the things,
19:31
and then someone comes in with a bunch of good ideas,
19:34
you're not in the space to receive
19:37
new ways of working or thinking.
19:40
So that's that element that I think is really important, that it seems like
19:44
you've been able to be part
19:47
of that feedback loop in really impactful ways.
19:50
Yeah, I just I mean, I thought too that,
19:53
I think the way you described it, it's sort of like it's like a circle.
19:57
It's you need all all those elements to kind of come in.
20:01
So, yeah. And I definitely feel like,
20:05
it's not just support for the students.
20:08
I think it's also support for the teachers to be able to offer that, you know,
20:13
and I think whenever I talk to my teachers about many issues,
20:17
it's almost like you see parallels between our problems
20:21
and their problems, because they're like, well,
20:22
we don't get enough pay or we don't get enough support or time.
20:26
It's not just one level, too many levels of change
20:28
that has to happen in order for it to be sustainable.
20:31
Yeah.
20:31
Well, I think what also is a little bit tricky there, and just from the kind
20:35
of educator side is, you know, people come in, they've got some good ideas
20:39
and you want to support and you want to bring it up.
20:41
And then there's layers of practicality.
20:43
And you mentioned budgets, that sort of thing.
20:44
But there's stuff
20:45
that maybe at that moment you go right, it's not going to work this time.
20:49
Yeah.
20:49
And it's a matter of like how to navigate that
20:51
so that it's not the crushing discouragement that's like,
20:54
but I just gave a great idea. And why isn't going to work?
20:57
More of like a, it just in this instance, these particular practicalities
21:01
prevented us.
21:01
But don't stop with the ideas like keep them, you know.
21:04
And I think navigating that's pretty tough sometimes, because
21:08
in many cases for a young person it might be one of their first times
21:11
or first few times bringing up an idea.
21:13
And if it gets kind of shut down, it feels like,
21:15
oh, they're not listening to me and don't want my ideas.
21:19
So kind of navigating that's a little bit tricky.
21:21
And I think that lends itself to some of the things
21:23
that you were mentioning earlier about your teachers being present,
21:27
you know, both in the evenings for those sessions and that sort of thing.
21:30
Is there more that you've noticed that teachers do that kind of allow
21:34
you to build in that space better as opposed to,
21:38
hey, here's your student council.
21:40
You guys see your student things, we'll do our teacher things
21:42
and this school is going to run fine.
21:43
Like, how do we get to that genuine building space?
21:46
In terms of things, I feel, I've seen work really well,
21:51
I think that
21:52
I mean, I'm not a teacher, but, from the teachers that I've spoken with,
21:57
you know, they often tell me, like,
22:01
we also need, you know,
22:05
training to be able to handle certain topics.
22:07
So, that's also another area which
22:10
I feel like needs to be talked about more in the education space.
22:14
How do we better equip our teachers to be those leaders
22:18
that we really need them to be?
22:19
I think teachers change the world, like, I think
22:22
whenever we say education changes the world, like,
22:26
who do you think actually like, you know, gives that education
22:29
most of the time it's teachers, right?
22:31
So teachers are real change makers.
22:34
You know, and so it's like you can't just expect teachers to be able
22:39
to do that without having the support that they need first.
22:42
Right? So I think that that's one thing.
22:46
Other areas I've seen, you know,
22:49
that have been helpful for this whole cycle is having
22:54
a really open dialog between leadership in a school and the students.
23:00
And what does that look like?
23:01
Well, I can give an example again, you know,
23:07
we call him rettore,
23:08
which just means like, head of school, basically.
23:12
And he would often, you know, come and
23:16
just chat with us, have dinner with us, you know,
23:19
like, just have, you know, very open and honest conversations
23:23
with students to really learn, like, from their level, like,
23:26
how do you actually feel about certain topics in the school?
23:29
So I think having that, you know,
23:33
very welcoming, like space,
23:35
for students is been really helpful in my experience.
23:39
And then the third thing, to sort of tie everything together,
23:44
is, I think, checking in as often as possible with students,
23:49
the teachers that I've had the best experience with
23:53
didn't just care about how I was doing in the course
23:56
or like what grade I was getting, but they cared how I showed up to class.
24:00
They cared how I was feeling during the class,
24:02
if I felt included, and if they noticed anything off about me,
24:06
they would often like, say like, after class, like, are you okay?
24:10
Like, are you disagreeing with something like, is there something I can do?
24:14
And so I think, like, of course, teachers have to have like their own,
24:20
sort of boundaries for how much they can do.
24:23
They're not supposed to do every job, you know.
24:26
But I think when you realize that
24:29
educating a child is not just about teaching them math,
24:32
but really supporting them in their learning and growth process,
24:36
that’s when the teaching can become even more powerful, in my experience.
24:40
Oh, come and say that to every educator.
24:43
Yeah. That's awesome.
24:44
Yeah, I hope I'm pretty sure most people know that,
24:48
but hopefully they start doing it more.
24:52
John, I'm going to put you on the spot and we can cut it if you don't like it.
24:55
But is there anything that she's said that either really resonates
24:58
with your practice or anything that you feel like you at your school or within
25:03
your practice is really helping amplify the student voices at your school?
25:07
Yeah. All right, I see you, Courtney.
25:09
I see what you're doing. No.
25:12
Genuinely, yes.
25:13
And I really appreciate you commenting on those things, Arissa,
25:16
especially the training piece,
25:19
and then making sure that people are aware of it,
25:21
because, you know, as an educator in those spaces,
25:23
you mentioned a couple of conflicts that came up, the Israeli Palestine.
25:26
We've got a lot of Ukrainian Russian students together.
25:29
There's, you know, a number of these things that as an international educator,
25:33
you mentioned earlier at the top of the show, like,
25:36
it's tough to ask certain questions.
25:38
You don't know, like, can I get into this space or not?
25:40
And that's a tricky one,
25:42
I think for most educators, you do want to care, and you do care.
25:46
You're interested in how this is going to affect the children,
25:49
the people that are coming into your classroom,
25:51
how it's going to affect their thinking and what they're able to learn and grow.
25:56
Because just as you say,
25:57
I'm not just teaching biology, I'm teaching a young person all these things,
26:01
and we'll get into stuff
26:02
about the IB learner profile and all of that that comes through.
26:06
Yeah.
26:06
But part of that includes a genuine relationship.
26:09
And so you build that relationship through,
26:12
as you say, those sort of passing conversations.
26:14
Maybe it's yeah, I go to the boarding house and have dinner in the evening, or
26:18
we have a quick catch up in between lessons
26:21
or something like that, and you're building that relationship.
26:23
And naturally, if you've got a student who's you know, their family
26:27
has members on the front line, you want to ask and you want to know.
26:32
And so yes, training that, but along with that is exactly
26:36
what you just said is that genuine care and that genuine relationship building.
26:40
So, I absolutely agree with the things that you're saying,
26:43
and I hope that most of our listeners right now
26:45
are taking that too and just going, yeah, I am not just teaching my subject.
26:49
I'm teaching a young person,
26:51
and interacting with that young person means that I need to know them better
26:54
and the better I know them, the better we can go.
26:56
So, yeah. Yes.
26:59
Thanks for my soapbox moment there, Courtney.
27:01
You're welcome.
27:02
And with that, we're moving to our next segment.
27:07
I do think that there's something to be said about
27:11
the system in place also guides a lot of these things.
27:15
And how much teachers are enabled to have this way of working with their students.
27:20
And I was listening to your TedEx talk, and one of the things that you were
27:24
arguing about was the way that subjects are taught need to fundamentally change.
27:28
And, while I would love to hear you do your TedEx talk again, I won't do that.
27:34
But, what do you think is one of the most urgent shifts that you would call for?
27:39
Yeah, there's so many, but I would say one
27:42
that's been on my mind lately is,
27:45
and it might be a shock to you, John,
27:49
but I'm gonna be so brave and say it.
27:52
I think we
27:54
need to get rid, or not get rid fully, but significantly reduce
27:59
the number of exams that we have in school.
28:03
And let me tell you why.
28:04
Shock. Horror.
28:06
I'm falling appart here.
28:07
No, thanks.
28:08
Terrible, red light. You're fired, Arissa.
28:11
John loves exams.
28:13
That's why he became a teacher for.
28:15
My favorite thing.
28:16
Really?
28:17
I need to hear more about this.
28:19
Definitely not.
28:22
Maybe I can interview you now, John.
28:26
Yeah, yeah.
28:27
Okay.
28:28
So, first of all, when I look at an exam,
28:31
like many of us, I think think of an exam as, like showing
28:37
all that you've learned in a course over the last year,
28:40
or half a year, however long you've been in that course.
28:45
As a student,
28:47
you know, I'm definitely more of a visual person.
28:51
I like more, like doing projects, things like that.
28:54
I'm very much not good at exams, I would say.
28:59
And so obviously I'm biased with this comment, but,
29:03
when I look at,
29:05
you know, sort of what education is supposed to do
29:09
and looking at the fundamental purpose of school, for example, it is,
29:14
you know, educating a young person, teaching a young person a skill, a lesson,
29:20
like a topic, anything like that,
29:22
biology, maybe.
29:24
And so if you're actually trying to do that, then why is so much emphasis on
29:32
preparing a student to be, you know, good at taking an exam?
29:37
And I know there's many,
29:40
many teachers are probably going to disagree with me on this,
29:43
but, you know, I think that,
29:46
from my own experience, one of the main ways
29:49
that my education kind of limited me was that
29:53
we spent so much time when I was in the IB,
29:57
talking about how to get a seven
30:00
in, you know, paper two,
30:03
and less time talking about the actual subjects,
30:07
and that really, you know, worried me and stressed me out.
30:11
And not just me, but most of my peers too had that same opinion that
30:15
why are we spending so much time doing practice problems to know how
30:20
to, like, get the most points in the IB and that's just,
30:24
I feel like, such a waste of time, to be honest with you.
30:28
Because, that is just training students to become robots, which we don't need.
30:33
We have many AI advancements these days.
30:37
We don't need more robots in society.
30:40
And I think what we need to be doing
30:41
more is teaching things like soft skills, things like
30:45
collaboration.
30:48
You know, how to become
30:51
an actual, like, kind, respectful member of society.
30:55
Like, those are more important things, like financial literacy.
30:59
Like, those are topics that we don't talk about,
31:03
whereas we spend so much time prepping for exams.
31:06
And I know that this is so much easier said than done.
31:10
And it's not
31:11
just about, you know, the IB changing or like the whole high school
31:15
or middle school or elementary school system changing.
31:19
These changes are also
31:22
like not happening or a lot slower because it's a whole system
31:25
right at university level, because unfortunately
31:29
today and I can even share a personal example about it.
31:32
Like universities, they still judge you heavily, if not 100% on your grades.
31:39
And, you know, I shared this at the IB
31:42
conference and I'm okay talking about it now, as well.
31:45
Like I did not end up with a good IB score at all.
31:48
Like, at all.
31:49
And I'm okay sharing that because I think
31:54
it's not a reflection of me fully in my learning journey.
31:59
It's a reflection of me at one moment of time where I knew I was struggling.
32:03
And I'm not the best at taking exams, but the fact that we
32:07
sort of put this blanket way of measuring student success
32:11
and then sort of graphing them on a chart of, okay, she didn't get a seven to like,
32:15
she's not as good as this person.
32:17
Like, that's just really sad in society.
32:20
And I know that it's complex,
32:24
because how else are you supposed to judge people?
32:26
How else are you supposed to, like, measure one's potential?
32:29
But I think if we are so brave to, like, actually
32:33
take the time to create a better system,
32:36
then that's where education will become even more powerful.
32:40
I love the things that you're saying right now.
32:41
I genuinely do, and this is all the stuff that, it's
32:45
kind of a big focus of my research that I'm currently actively on.
32:50
Yeah, so much what you're saying is resonate with me. And,
32:53
I guess firstly,
32:56
it's hard to hear, because I know that it happens, but it's hard to hear
33:00
when teachers or students are focusing so much on the grade.
33:03
This is what you need to do to get that mark,
33:05
this is what you need to do to perform better.
33:07
Here's how you write so the examiner understands it, that sort of thing.
33:10
Because just as you've said,
33:12
we're here to develop a passion in a particular subject.
33:14
We're here to widen
33:15
an understanding of this idea and how it connects to all the other bits.
33:19
And what you mentioned with that genuine development of soft
33:22
skills, the things like international mindedness
33:25
or aspects of learner profile, like how to be more caring,
33:28
how to inquire about real things, more knowledgeable
33:30
and you know, all that stuff matters a lot.
33:34
Yeah.
33:34
And the thing I love about what you said is there's a societal piece there too.
33:38
I don't think it's just the IB, and I don't think it's your teachers
33:41
or what you've experienced coming up in parents.
33:44
Like it's this wide, wide big thing that right now
33:48
we're comfortable with it because
33:50
the valuable currency that we use up until somebody is 25 is grades.
33:55
But there's way more that we can be getting into
33:58
and I actually have a lot of respect for the IB for aiming to push that needle,
34:02
because if you look into other systems, A-levels, matura, AP, etc.,
34:08
there's not quite the explicit focus
34:11
on international mindedness, IB learner profile, that sort of stuff.
34:15
Those skills that you've just identified are really important.
34:18
So I'm wondering like when we talk about the IB values,
34:23
international mindedness, inquiry based learning, things like being,
34:27
you know, more caring, more inquiring, that sort of thing.
34:31
Yeah.
34:32
If we're trying to build up student agency,
34:37
how does a focus on those IB learner profile attributes,
34:41
support student agency more differently or better than a focus on grades?
34:47
When you look at the IB and from my IB experience in my IB journey,
34:54
the moments that I felt
34:57
the most empowered came in those like CAS moments
35:01
or those moments of like, even TOK,
35:05
when my TOK teacher,
35:09
said, like, you have an idea,
35:11
like make a presentation about this, like to talk about in the school.
35:14
Like, I want to hear what your thoughts are on that topic.
35:18
I think what is really great about the IB,
35:21
as much as I, you know, criticize a lot,
35:25
there are very amazing things about it.
35:27
And one of those things is, those elements where you really are
35:31
open to whatever the student wants to do or where is thinking or has ideas about.
35:36
And, you know, so that I feel that environment of like, hey,
35:41
Arissa, I actually think you have an idea, like, do you want to share?
35:44
Like, do you want to like start something to talk about it in the school?
35:48
Like that is where real student agency happens, because a student is then
35:52
given that opportunity to be like a leader and a teacher in the community as well.
35:58
And you know, another amazing thing is that,
36:02
when I did my service,
36:04
component of my CAS,
36:08
over the two years, what I did was I went and I worked at, like a seniors home,
36:13
with in this very, like small village just outside of
36:16
Duino, like,
36:17
I mean, Duino is a small village, but like another small village,
36:22
you know, we were able to really, like,
36:25
get to know the elderly people that we are working with.
36:28
And actually, I even went back for a reunion
36:32
a few months ago to TWC, and I went to go visit her.
36:36
Her name's Silva, and we became, like, best friends, even though she's like 80.
36:41
So, you know, that opportunity to really, like, work within community.
36:46
I think those are moments where IB students really gain
36:50
that, like perspective, that they have the power
36:53
to create ripple effects of change, which is something I really talk about,
36:57
as opposed to the moment where you kind of
37:00
are like almost not saying the moment in class
37:04
don't do the same.
37:05
Like many moments in class where we have like,
37:08
group projects or things like that, where you're able to like, really interact.
37:12
Those moments were great.
37:13
But I think when you're kind of sitting in an exam room
37:16
where you have to write your, like, student number on the top of the paper,
37:20
like you kind of feel like you're a number which you are in the IB system.
37:26
So that did not feel student agency for me, in my opinion.
37:30
Now, Arissa is tapping into a deep passion of mine here
37:33
with student identity development and performativity.
37:37
There's a really interesting body of research here, which is quite extensive,
37:41
but for those who are interested to learn more about it,
37:44
you got to see Deci and Ryan's self-determination theory.
37:47
Their work is especially useful as it highlights what Arissa is saying
37:50
about assessment, undermining autonomy and intrinsic motivation.
37:55
Our episode with Conrad Hughes on Rethinking assessment addresses
37:59
this issue head on, and I also recommend the work of Alfie Kohn,
38:03
specifically his book Punished by Rewards or The Schools Our Children Deserve.
38:08
You could also see Yong Zhao's criticisms of standardization,
38:12
high stakes testing, or, of course, the goat,
38:15
Carol Dweck and her work on growth mindset.
38:18
All of this stuff super pertinent to what Arissa is talking about right now.
38:22
I want to get into the kind of youth and global policy idea
38:26
and what schools can learn from it and really what your role has been.
38:29
So I guess first, as an introduction to this,
38:32
could you talk a little bit about what you've been doing with, like,
38:35
the UN Transforming Education Summit and the SDG four?
38:39
Could you give us a little bit of a summary there first?
38:42
I always get like the first question
38:44
because I do post a long line about like my work and everyone's like,
38:48
how do you actually, like what do you actually do with the UN?
38:52
And which is a great question.
38:55
So, like I said earlier, currently what I do is
38:59
I serve as the Europe and North America representative,
39:04
the youth representative
39:07
for the SDG 4 Youth and Student Network.
39:09
And I sort of explain that, but basically
39:12
we are a group of 100 young people from I think, again,
39:17
over like 50 countries are represented, in the network.
39:21
And, what we do is we basically work
39:25
with something called the IAS.
39:28
So the Inter Agency Secretariat, which is basically my two bosses,
39:33
Hannah and Marco, shout out to them, they're awesome.
39:35
And they basically relay everything that we do
39:39
in the network to other like Unesco folks.
39:43
And my role on the executive committee,
39:47
so I think there's like eight of us on the executive committee,
39:50
8 or 9 can't remember exactly the number, but
39:54
we basically serve as the first point of contact for the region
39:59
whenever Unesco like, does something to do with youth in that region.
40:03
So I got elected to be the one
40:06
for Europe in North America, which when I was first elected, I was like
40:10
Europe and North America, like, those are two very big like areas.
40:14
And I'm like, okay.
40:15
But I think that the two years in Italy and a lifetime in Toronto,
40:20
you know, felt like I could maybe do my best, but,
40:24
no, it's been really awesome because what I get to do is basically
40:29
I every like month we meet with the region and we discuss
40:34
about the cool things that young people are doing in the education space.
40:38
And we basically just talk about it, see how we can support.
40:42
And then like sometimes we launch certain campaigns with Unesco,
40:46
which has been awesome.
40:47
And one thing that I'm really hyped about right now that, the executive committee
40:52
has been working on, is the work around the post 2030 agenda for SDG 4.
40:58
So, as you may know and other folks may know,
41:03
so the UN Sustainable Development Goals,
41:05
they were launched in 2015 and they last till 2030.
41:09
So now in the global policy space, a lot of us are saying,
41:13
okay, but what happens after 2030?
41:16
So, we task in the executive committee to basically
41:20
launch a youth consultation and survey process globally
41:26
to basically collect information about what young people really want
41:30
in education post 2030, so that we can help
41:34
rewrite SDG 4.
41:37
So that's kind of what we're doing with the support of the Japanese government,
41:40
who's basically helped fund this whole thing with Unesco.
41:44
We are working on that whole process, and we've actually launched the survey.
41:50
You can basically access it just by looking at post 2030 survey Unesco.
41:54
You'll find it there.
41:56
And we've already had more than 30,000 responses on this forum,
42:01
which is amazing from from several different places.
42:04
And it is actually open till September, so I don't know when this podcast
42:08
will be launched, but if you are an educator or a young person,
42:13
you know,
42:14
who wants to be heard we have the survey.
42:19
It's from ages 10 to 30
42:21
can answer. It's a pretty, pretty big range.
42:24
And what's awesome is we've also set up,
42:28
like support and guidance documents
42:30
for educators who want to host, like, a
42:33
group consultation where basically, even you, John, could maybe do that,
42:38
where you could maybe invite your students and like, there's a bunch of questions
42:41
and then you basically have a discussion and then you fill out the form as a group.
42:47
So, yeah, but, that's something that we've been working on.
42:50
And, in October,
42:53
we will all meet and basically consolidate the answers and
42:58
write the youth like,
43:00
proposal, I guess, for the new SDG 4.
43:03
Have you been able to look at any of the responses yet?
43:06
Unfortunately not.
43:07
Unfortunately, they have not shared that with us, but
43:11
we have gotten sort of like an overview of what young people have said
43:16
from our bosses.
43:17
And the main three things, for one,
43:21
more mental health education in our systems,
43:25
which is really been a big topic I think this year, for young people,
43:31
how do you actually create the safe, inclusive spaces
43:34
for young people to feel like they belong,
43:37
and feel like they have the sort of mental health support that they need.
43:41
The other really big one is again,
43:44
like just more work to do
43:48
with, like, the changing systems, especially with technology.
43:51
So a lot of talk about AI
43:53
within the form, I think they said was the second biggest topic.
43:57
And then the third one, I think, if I can remember, was a lot about climate.
44:02
So young people are really concerned about climate change and how we can,
44:06
learn how to become best global citizens for our environment.
44:12
For listeners who might not be familiar,
44:14
SDG 4 is the United Nation’s Sustainable Development Goal,
44:17
that's focused on inclusive, equitable, quality education.
44:21
The global targets run until 2030,
44:23
which is why these conversations, about what's next,
44:26
are so significant right now.
44:28
You can check out what the IB is doing in their lead up to 2030, as well.
44:32
There are some really interesting movements
44:34
and initiatives that are taking place at the IB
44:36
directly addressing SDG 4 in really meaningful ways,
44:40
and we're really hopeful that we'll be able to bring this to the table
44:43
in an upcoming episode.
44:45
That's pretty inspiring to hear, actually, and not to tout the IB.
44:49
But what's interesting
44:50
is each of the global conferences that I've been able to go to,
44:53
there's been a focus on mental health, well-being, sort of inclusion focus there.
44:59
There's been a focus on AI, tech and changing systems.
45:02
So it's nice to know that there's a kind of an ear to the ground,
45:07
I guess you could say
45:08
of like what's going on and what should we really be focusing on.
45:11
It sounds like you able to do some really amazing things there.
45:14
And what a cool opportunity
45:15
to be involved in this with the UN Transforming Education Summit.
45:19
And, you know,
45:20
the theme of our show right now is a lot about building with young people.
45:24
So I wonder
45:25
maybe if you were to
45:26
take kind of a metacognitive look here, kind of step out a bit,
45:29
what do the meetings that you're able to be a part of with the UN look like,
45:33
compared to maybe a typical student council meeting or stuff
45:38
that happens within a school of like, hey, we want to hear student voices.
45:40
What are the key differences you notice?
45:43
I feel like there's so many jokes
45:45
I could make right now, but I'm going to be careful with what I say.
45:50
Say them and then we'll cut them.
45:53
Okay.
45:55
Well, I think I've been to, like,
45:57
in person,
45:57
I've been to maybe, like
46:00
ten, like things at the UN,
46:02
And honestly, all of them are very boring.
46:07
I would say, because it's like,
46:12
sorry.
46:16
Okay, first of all, it's extremely repetitive, when it comes to the UN.
46:21
And I'm comfortable saying that because I think,
46:25
in order to change a system, you really have to be part of it.
46:28
And I feel like I'm sort of part of it in a way.
46:30
So I think I'm comfortable to say that.
46:33
But yeah, like, for example,
46:35
for the last like three, four years, I've been a youth delegate at something
46:39
called the ECOSOC Youth Forum, which is the Economic and Social Council.
46:43
Basically, every year they organize this huge youth conference,
46:48
inviting young people from around the world on different like SDGs.
46:51
They have a focus on each year.
46:53
And, this year I was a speaker at the session for Europe and North
46:57
America and, yeah, like I've been the last four years in a row.
47:03
And I like, I promise, like, every conversation
47:06
that happens in the main chamber,
47:08
it's like the same conversation, just like different people leading it.
47:13
So that's been like, very interesting to notice because I think
47:18
whenever I share that I'm somehow involved at the UN, everyone's like,
47:22
but they don't do anything, right?
47:24
And, you know, like it's, honestly true in many ways.
47:29
Because if you look at conflicts globally like
47:33
how is that even
47:34
possible if we technically have something like the UN in practice.
47:38
Right?
47:38
And I think the reality is and I wrote about this, actually,
47:42
in my extended essay, my whole EE was around the UN Security Council
47:47
and whether or not they actually do anything basically.
47:50
And the reality is the strongest body and the UN is a Security Council,
47:56
but in that council, they have something called veto power,
48:00
which of course, most people know, but it's basically
48:04
veto power is given to the P-5,
48:09
and the countries like the US and China, I'm pretty sure, Russia,
48:14
and basically what happens is whenever there is a resolution
48:18
that needs to be voted upon in the Security Council,
48:22
and there's been several resolutions on many different topics, but
48:25
what happens is there's voting.
48:27
But if you're a P-5, if you're one of those people with veto power,
48:31
even if everyone else says yes, but you're the only person that says no,
48:36
then like the resolution, that thing happens.
48:38
Like it's just just gone. Like everyone says no.
48:41
So it's like that sort of system makes it hard for the UN,
48:45
I feel to actually
48:48
do its mission, that it like, goes about and says.
48:53
Sorry,
48:53
I've kind of drifted off there to the question..
48:55
Actually, it sounds a bit related to schools actually, you know.
49:00
Yeah, exactly.
49:01
Kind of boring.
49:02
Hearing the same thing all the time.
49:04
You get into a meeting and a bunch of students are like, hey, we should do this.
49:07
Let's definitely do that.
49:08
But the one teacher's like, no, and it doesn't happen.
49:11
Yeah, I saw what you were doing there, Arissa.
49:13
There's a definite parallel.
49:15
Yeah. I'm comparing.
49:17
But no, I would say back to the meetings question.
49:21
When I've been in like smaller
49:23
meetings at the UN where we're actually like, you know,
49:27
talking about things on a more concrete level,
49:30
those have been really great because I feel like you get some
49:33
really interesting voices in that space.
49:37
And of course, like within the Unesco group, we've had amazing meetings.
49:42
And I think that there, I would say that they have been similar
49:45
to my experience in my IB school,
49:48
in terms of like the diversity of thought and ideas and like people's backgrounds.
49:55
So what I would say, as like a
49:57
message, is have more like,
50:00
not so formal conversations, because the UN is very formal
50:04
and like you get two minutes to speak and that's it.
50:07
We're going to cut your mic, like literally they will cut your mic if you go over.
50:11
Which I mean has to be fair for everyone, but still.
50:14
So I think, like my favorite moments at the UN, have been literally
50:19
like in line for like coffee, because you get to talk with
50:22
like people who have done really cool things in a more
50:26
easygoing setting.
50:27
No, it makes a lot of sense.
50:29
I think there are probably a lot of teachers who are listening to you,
50:33
and there are students in their classes that they're thinking, oh,
50:37
they would love to do these kind of opportunities or projects
50:41
and all of the different things that you've been doing.
50:44
Do you have any advice for them to then give to their students,
50:49
or just for them in general, for how other students
50:53
could kind of emulate some of these experiences,
50:55
get involved in some of the projects that you've been doing?
50:59
So whenever I go and speak about, like this work
51:03
in like change making, what I first like to tell people is that,
51:07
you know, I think there is
51:08
this idea that these global issues are too big for us to help solve.
51:14
And people often feel like
51:17
they're not like, you know, skilled enough to actually make
51:21
a meaningful difference for that change to happen.
51:25
And what I say to that is that we all have our own unique story and unique voice.
51:30
No one is like, exactly like us around the world, right?
51:35
So, that is one main reason why I think everyone
51:39
can play a role in creating like change and more peace in the world.
51:45
And so, when I believe has been really powerful in my journey
51:49
is looking at my impact from like a what do I care about, what am I good at,
51:55
and then trying to combine those two things to help make an impact.
51:59
So I kind of talk about this formula for change making.
52:03
And it goes like, issue,
52:05
so, like a global issue that you care about.
52:06
So, for me I'm really care about education.
52:09
And then you look at, so issue plus gift.
52:12
So, what are you good at?
52:13
Maybe you're good at sports or maybe you're good at art or public
52:17
speaking or I don't know, maybe you love video games,
52:21
or something like that. You know?
52:22
So and you try and combine those two things
52:25
and that's when you can actually maybe create something
52:28
that's not only meaningful to the society,
52:31
but also to yourself, because you're able to do something you love.
52:34
And that's kind of how I started
52:38
PBG, like my organization.
52:40
We started by doing like, really fun events online
52:44
where we would gather people to, like, play games and like,
52:47
that's something I loved and eventually, like, you know,
52:50
we would do, like, a lot of speeches and stuff in schools.
52:54
And I love public speaking.
52:55
So that was a way I've combined that.
52:58
But also some of my team members, they loved baking.
53:00
So we would do like bake sales and like things like that to raise money.
53:03
So it's like,
53:05
those are small ways I feel like you can actually create that change.
53:09
And then the second thing I would say to anyone, not just youth, is that
53:12
sometimes you won't see for yourself
53:16
the immediate impact of what you're doing.
53:19
And that's okay, because I really do believe in this idea
53:23
of ripple effect of change.
53:25
I actually have written like a children's book where I talk about that,
53:31
and it's sort of that idea of
53:32
like, you know, when you throw a stone in the water, you see, like those ripples
53:36
that you create and sometimes those ripples won't be super apparent.
53:40
Maybe you do a good, like a kind deed.
53:43
Maybe you hold like the door for someone and that made their day.
53:47
So they do something nice.
53:48
You know, like those are small things that you might not
53:51
see how you've made an impact, but you have.
53:54
So, I would say just do
53:57
whatever you can in your everyday life to
54:00
try and make it like a positive impact.
54:03
My mom always used to tell me, try and leave every room you go
54:07
to a little bit better than you found it, whatever that means.
54:12
Yeah.
54:12
And then the last thing I would say is collaboration.
54:16
Without my team, without, you know, meeting other
54:19
young people doing similar work, I would never have been here.
54:23
And I think so many of us, we still work in silos
54:27
a lot of the time, with in these issues,
54:29
there's so many youth organizations about education.
54:32
There's so many organizations about climate.
54:35
Why don't we all just work together?
54:37
And so that's kind of what I'm now focusing on more, as I continue my journey,
54:41
that idea of like collective action, because that's when,
54:45
you know, more change will happen.
54:47
So, Arissa brought up some great points, and I know for me,
54:50
as an educational leader, in a school, there are multiple other factors
54:54
to include which may not be so evident to other stakeholders.
54:57
And there's issues,
54:58
of course, like safeguarding concerns and legal responsibilities,
55:02
governance structures or budget realities, competing stakeholder demands, etc.
55:06
So, if you are a school leader genuinely wanting to increase student agency,
55:11
but you're facing constraints
55:12
around budgets, policy requirements, safeguarding, accountability,
55:16
consider Lundy's model of student Voice or the OECD Learning Compass from 2030
55:21
or Mitrice 2008 book titled Student Voice in School Reform.
55:25
Also, our episode with La Mor also provides a framework
55:28
for humanizing pedagogy, which really helps students flourish.
55:32
But, in general, start small,
55:33
build capacity framed around self-determination theory,
55:36
share that leadership that moves beyond consultation to co-design
55:41
and close the loop by communicating what students suggested,
55:43
what happened, what changed, and what could not be changed and why.
55:48
There's actually simple ways
55:49
to move forward with this that don't have to feel
55:52
like you have to reinvent the whole wheel.
55:54
Arissa, such meaningful things that you're saying here.
55:56
I really, really appreciate it.
55:57
And so many of the things
55:58
that we've talked about have inspired me quite a bit and are making me feel like,
56:02
I'm ready to get in and do some more meaningful action here at school.
56:06
I love that idea of just like issue plus gift equals a meaningful change.
56:11
And I think that's a simple formula
56:13
that we can kind of build out a little bit more in classrooms as well.
56:16
And like I said, at the very start when we were just sort of chatting
56:20
before the actual episode started recording, like you're
56:22
just a hugely inspirational person.
56:23
I'm really glad you've taken the time
56:25
to chat with us here and keep doing the great work you're doing and
56:29
keep inspiring
56:29
everybody around you, both people your age and educators like me, because,
56:34
it's really refreshing and it helps us recognize that there is meaningful work.
56:38
And just as you said, we might not be aware of like a ripples that are going.
56:42
But what you've just outlined is, yeah, very encouraging.
56:47
And I think, I hope all of our listeners and educators listening to this and go,
56:50
right, I'm doing good work.
56:52
Keep doing the good work.
56:53
Yeah. Thank you.
56:54
I really appreciate you coming in
56:56
with so much authenticity, honesty about your journey.
56:59
Things that you're working on.
57:00
It's just such, like John said, refreshing and inspiring way to look at,
57:05
yeah, for teachers, what their students can do and what
57:10
the next steps could look like for them, and what the next steps
57:13
could look inside their own classrooms and in their own schools.
57:16
So, thank you so much, Arissa.
57:17
It's been a pleasure.
57:18
Thank you so much. Thank you both.
57:23
See what I mean?
57:24
I told you she'd be a great guest.
57:26
I never doubted you.
57:28
Yeah, I know, but you,
57:29
unfortunately, were unable to go and see her at the presentation.
57:33
And I think you gave me that look when I came out after, I was like,
57:35
we got to get her on the show.
57:37
Yeah.
57:38
You were like, give me the postcard.
57:40
I'm going for it.
57:41
Yeah, yeah. No, she's great. Right?
57:43
Oh, great. Yeah.
57:45
I love that the IB
57:46
asked her to speak at the conference, because it's not like
57:49
this is how I got a perfect score at the IB.
57:51
She's like, I don't even score that well.
57:53
But look, all the other..
57:55
She didn't say this. I'm saying this.
57:57
Look at all the other things that the IB actually prioritizes,
58:01
and you see how it plays out in the way that she is leading her life,
58:06
making decisions and kind of really trying to drive meaningful change or like,
58:10
yeah, those are the things that matter.
58:12
And that's why we're all here for the IB.
58:15
Yeah.
58:16
And that's the thing that's way
58:17
more important than a perfect score or something like that.
58:20
You know, there's so many things
58:22
I think you could probably take from that conversation.
58:23
But what stands out to you, Court?
58:25
I think that, what I wanted in that
58:28
last question where I was asking about, like, okay, what can teachers do?
58:32
I think there are
58:33
so many students that teachers will hear her and think about, oh,
58:38
that one student would be so into this or gosh, I wonder how my kid could do it.
58:43
And I think that she makes what is a really impressive,
58:47
and maybe even daunting resume,
58:50
feel like something that anyone could just go for.
58:54
It's like, if you care about something, do something about it.
58:57
It's that simple.
58:59
Or just speak what's on your mind and collaborate,
59:05
talk to other people and figure out a way to start small,
59:09
start grassroots, and really try to make some change within your own school.
59:12
So I think that it's going to resonate with a lot of teachers,
59:16
this idea of there are students that have a lot of passion
59:20
about these problems in education or maybe in other fields, but
59:24
there are really tangible ways to do something about it.
59:28
Yeah, no, I agree.
59:29
I think, you know, for me,
59:30
what's really sticking with me, and I think what's going to take me
59:33
into my lessons coming up here is just everything
59:36
that she really emphasized around meaningful education.
59:39
Let's learn, in my case, biology.
59:42
And let's not worry too much about what I have to do to get the right grade.
59:46
Let's not worry about how to answer the questions,
59:47
so that the examiner sees it. That's her thing.
59:49
That's let's love the subject and let me show up
59:52
why we might love the subject. That really stood out to me.
59:55
And then alongside that was how important it is to have a strong relationship
1:00:00
and just investing in those relationships, how frequently did she
1:00:04
talk about the most meaningful moments happening from unstructured time?
1:00:08
You know, happening from the casual drop in,
1:00:10
the sort of noticing when she was well or unwell or something like that.
1:00:14
And I think that's something that, you know, as educators,
1:00:17
we naturally are drawn to, or we want to be part of that.
1:00:20
And sometimes we can get overtaken by like,
1:00:22
but I have to get the curriculum, so that we can get the grade.
1:00:25
But, you know,
1:00:26
to see somebody like Arissa, who has done so many amazing things already
1:00:30
reflect that
1:00:31
the most impactful stuff for her were those 1 to 1 relationships
1:00:35
and those like genuine moments of let's explore the subject.
1:00:39
Not the grade based things,
1:00:40
that's just so confirming,
1:00:42
I think for me, as an educator, and I hope for everybody else out there listening.
1:00:45
I forgot to say to her when she was talking and she was like,
1:00:48
I bet a lot of teachers would disagree with me.
1:00:51
And then talking about how the exams are and her kind of
1:00:55
frustrations and qualms with the exam structure.
1:00:59
And I was like, how unfortunate that she's probably not alone in students
1:01:03
thinking that all of these teachers just love testing them.
1:01:08
No, we don't.
1:01:09
No, everyone we talk to wants change.
1:01:13
And yeah, that was just a funny moment of, oh gosh, this is really what
1:01:17
students think of you, guys.
1:01:21
No, I don't dare get into what I think my students think of me.
1:01:23
That's not going to be a useful exercise right now.
1:01:27
No, no.
1:01:28
But, overall a great episode with Arissa.
1:01:31
I feel really fortunate to have been able to meet her, chat with her.
1:01:35
And yeah, I hope this was great for all of you.
1:01:37
Let us know what you think.
1:01:39
And until next time.
1:01:41
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast, hosted by John Patton
1:01:44
and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
1:01:47
Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
1:01:51
If you'd like to submit a topic, request, or a question, please do so
1:01:54
on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
1:01:57
Let's keep the conversation going
1:01:59
and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity and joy.
1:02:02
See you next time.