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315: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Hidden Drivers of Chronic Illness - Inside the MSIDS Model · Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD

• 0:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go to podcast for the most cutting edge insights integrative and functional medicine.
• 0:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I'm your host, Dr. Jill and with each episode we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation.
• 0:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Join me as I interview medical experts, world leaders, innovators of all types, bringing you information for optimal performance and longevity and just to live a better life in general.
• 0:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Today you are in for such a treat with the brilliant Dr. Richard Horowitz.
• 0:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I've had him on before and today he's going to spill the news on some preliminary studies and research that is really going to change the way you view medicine and especially the epidemic of Alzheimer's disease.
• 0:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So if you or someone you love is suffering from that or you're just worried about your own brain health, you will want to stay tuned for this episode.
• 0:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I promise it will completely blow your mind.
• 0:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I have the deepest respect for him and I will introduce him in just a moment.
• 0:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But before I do, I just want to remind you can find products and services of all types to help you on your journey.
• 1:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: At Dr. Jill health.com we've got protocols for the gut, we've got protocols for mast cell activation, tick borne infections, which is the topic of our conversation today, and even brain health, which I don't often talk about, but we have some of the best curated supplements and support for you at Dr. Jill Health.com you can also find my line Dr. Jill Beauty on the website DrJill Health.com and everything from Biopeptide Beauty Serum to the HA Collagen Booster to the tinted sunscreen.
• 1:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: There's just so many products and services there that will help you with beautiful skin with safe ingredients.
• 1:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So check it out@drjillhealth.com okay, let me go and introduce our guest.
• 1:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Our guest is Dr. Richard Horowitz, a return guest to Resiliency Radio.
• 1:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: He's a board certified internist and internationally recognized expert in the treatment of tick borne infections including Lyme disease.
• 1:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: With over 30 years of clinical experience, he's treated thousands of patients with complex chronic conditions that often go undiagnosed or missed diagnosed.
• 2:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Horowitz is the Medical Director of the Hudson Valley Healing Arts center in New York and author of groundbreaking books on chronic illness where he introduces his innovated MSAIDS at Multiple Systemic Infection Disease Syndrome model for understanding and treating multifactorial illness.
• 2:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Known for his integrative and compassionate approach, Dr. Horowitz combines traditional and functional medicine to address root causes of persistent symptoms.
• 2:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I am so excited to interview him again for Resiliency Radio.
• 2:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And he's going to share his insights from decades of the front lines of complex illness care and information on his groundbreaking new book, End Chronic illness.
• 2:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Let's welcome Dr. Richard Horowitz.
• 2:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Horowitz, I am so happy to be here again with you today.
• 2:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And today we've got some literally groundbreaking information that you want to get out into the world.
• 2:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And as we start, one of the things I always love to have guests talk about is, like, origin stories, like, how you got into medicine.
• 3:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And you've had a couple podcasts with me, so we've talked about that.
• 3:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But right before we got on the show, you and I share something of, like, this greater spiritual awareness of why we're here.
• 3:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And so often, some of the incredible insights that you and I have both had in our clinical practice, we know they're from some other source, right?
• 3:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Like, this is a download.
• 3:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And some of the serendipitous kinds of things that we both discovered in our practices, there's a.
• 3:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: There's a greater thing at work for the good of people and humanity.
• 3:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And you started telling me a little bit of a story about, like, where we're going today, because, again, if you're listening now, you will want to stay tuned.
• 3:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This is the biggest breakthrough in Alzheimer's disease and brain health, and Dr. Horowitz will put it all together.
• 3:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But before we do, go ahead and start with kind of that story of how this patient came and the deeper meaning behind what happened in that case, you know, so.
• 3:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So my life has felt.
• 3:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I'm not sure if it's been the same with you, but my life has felt like I've been on a raft and the river is just kind of moving me down.
• 4:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You know, I'm not even paddling.
• 4:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's just moving me down the river, you know, to where I need to go.
• 4:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So if I was to go back to when I was a child, when this whole thing started, and I'll explain why we're even discussing this.
• 4:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: My stepfather, who is a surgeon, who was a doctor, would take me into the hospital when I was, you know, 10 years old.
• 4:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I would scrub up for surgery going into the or.
• 4:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You don't even want to know the things he showed me with like hip replacements, women.
• 4:28
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I mean, things that, as a kid, I said, I will never be a surgeon.
• 4:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: There's no way if I'm going to medicine, it's internal medicine.
• 4:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So he says to me, you know, when I was finishing Northwestern, and at the time it was Difficult to get into med schools.
• 4:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: He said, you know, I went to Europe, I did my training in Europe.
• 4:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Why don't you look at the Free University of Brussels?
• 4:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So he pointed me in this direction.
• 4:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I had taken French in school, I went there, I took a course in Switzerland for a few months because it was a seven year program in French, right?
• 4:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Which I never thought I'd be doing in medicine.
• 4:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I get to Belgium and I'm meditating with tm my first year and the TM City program because it's stressful and I know, like, I really got to meditate to keep my mind and.
• 5:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And my fourth year of medical school, I learn about the Tibetan lamas who all of a sudden are showing up.
• 5:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They're in Rue Capuyer in Brussels.
• 5:13
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They were literally four blocks from where I was living.
• 5:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: My friend Bill, who's been studying Tibetan Buddhism, says, rich, you really should go see him.
• 5:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I go there in my fourth year of medical school and I meet one of my major spiritual teachers, Lama Gendon Rinpoche.
• 5:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And Lama Gendon Rinpoche, immediately when we meet, it was like a connection.
• 5:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like we're old friends, we've known each other for a long time.
• 5:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We speak for a couple of minutes.
• 5:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: He puts his head on mine, gives me a blessing.
• 5:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I walk out of the room.
• 5:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: He walks around me, looking me up and down, and starts laughing hysterically and goes back into the room.
• 5:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it was one of those Zen Cohen's of like, what did he see that he was laughing so hard?
• 5:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So at the end of my seventh year of med school, I met him again and I said, lama about to go in medicine, become a doctor.
• 5:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What's the most important thing you want me to know?
• 6:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And he said, richard, the most important thing is exchange yourself with others and do for others what you would want done for yourself and everything will go well.
• 6:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now in all religions, and this is, you know, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, whatever, it's always about love, wanting other people to be happy, compassion, wanting other people to be free from suffering.
• 6:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But he pointed out, to really integrate these and what they call aspiration prayers, like he was advising being like a farmer, planting seeds in the ground.
• 6:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The ground was bodhicitta, basically working for the benefit of others to relieve their suffering.
• 6:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what I would do, this is 41 years ago, I would plant seeds in the ground.
• 6:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: May I be of greatest benefit.
• 6:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: May I be a healing source for all who think of me.
• 6:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: May they be well.
• 6:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: May I find cures for chronic diseases.
• 6:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I remember doing this 41 years ago.
• 6:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Wow.
• 6:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now fast forward 41 years later.
• 6:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Yes, I've discovered what I believe is a cure for chronic Lyme disease and co infections like bart.
• 7:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the big news which we're going to discuss today is that as I was finishing clinical practice after 41 years, my wife said to me, you know, it'd be nice to have a life together.
• 7:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Do you think maybe you could find another way to benefit the world?
• 7:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I said, honey, of course I love you dearly.
• 7:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So as I was finishing clinical practice, there was a woman who had not done dapsone therapy.
• 7:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: At this point, I was checking my patients for Alzheimer's disease biomarkers.
• 7:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I found that roughly 50% of some of my cognitively impaired patients were having low beta amyloid 42:40 ratios, meaning they were accumulating amyloid.
• 7:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Their P Tau 181, their P Tau 217 were high.
• 7:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The neurofilament light was high.
• 7:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They were having markers that they could develop dementia later on in life.
• 7:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I said to this woman, like literally the only person pretty much that had not done dapsone.
• 7:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I said, you know, you have chronic Lyme disease, you've had an EM rash, you failed doxy, you've been sick for 15 years, you're ELISA positive, you're C6 ELISA positive, your CDC IgM Western blot positive, your CDC IgG Western blot positive, and your Alzheimer's P Tau 217 is high.
• 8:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Would you now please be willing to try this even though I have no proof it's going to work?
• 8:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She said, doc, I have a family history of Alzheimer's.
• 8:18
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'm going to do it.
• 8:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She does the protocol in September and finishes it and I repeat her Alzheimer's biomarkers.
• 8:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Three months later, she reverses her P Tau217 for the first time.
• 8:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It went from 0.33 to 0.12 below normal range.
• 8:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And her amyloid ratio improved, showing she was lowering amyloid three months after the nine week oral dapsone combination therapy that I used for chronic Lyme disease ptlds.
• 8:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And what's amazing about this is the only treatments for Alzheimer's disease that's been available are these anti amyloid antibodies like lecanemab and donatumab that if you look at the results, and this just came out in a Cochrane database, that they lowered P TAU by roughly 20 to 30% after six years by 20 to 30%.
• 9:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I lowered P Tau217 by 63% in nine weeks and lowered beta amyloid.
• 9:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It has never been done and it's Showing up in the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease reports, it means we now have a new clue, a new way, a new path forward for all these people with dementia.
• 9:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And what the study showed is all 16 MSIDs factors that I have been publishing for chronic Lyme that I've been publishing on long Covid now also appears to be the fact with Alzheimer's disease, all 16.
• 9:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I have this in my new book from Simon and Schuster, Ending Chronic Illness.
• 9:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And, and we'll talk about this in a second.
• 9:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But I'm like out of my skin with excitement because something I was doing for 41 years trying to find a solution for one illness all of a sudden spilled out into another epidemic.
• 9:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It is so exciting.
• 10:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I feel like I'm regenerated.
• 10:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like, oh my God, I could help with a worldwide epidemic in another way.
• 10:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It is so exciting, Jill.
• 10:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I feel blessed.
• 10:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like these seeds that I planted are coming to fruition and I want people to know it's not because I'm some special person or I'm exceptional.
• 10:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You need to literally put these seeds in the ground with proper compassion and love and saying, how can I benefit the world and just do it over and over again.
• 10:26
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This was a spiritual science experiment I started 41 years ago.
• 10:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I've now seen the fruits of this, you know, planting of the seeds.
• 10:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's absolutely mind blowing to me.
• 10:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And this is why I love you so much, brother.
• 10:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I'm going to say that out loud to the public because it is like truly there's this connection that's so much deeper because you and I, and there's lots of other practitioners in the world that have the same heart.
• 10:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But it's truly like to be of service.
• 10:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: There's no greater joy like the true, like vibrancy of life comes from this discovery.
• 10:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And we all, we both know that it comes from something greater than us, right?
• 11:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We're just conduits.
• 11:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And it's so beautiful to hear this because it really will change.
• 11:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Now let's back, step back just a little because people have heard of beta amyloid and tau protein.
• 11:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And as you and I know, these are targets of these drugs.
• 11:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: However, what they really represent is these microbial insults to the brain and the glia are trying to deal with it, right?
• 11:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And kind of.
• 11:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So maybe just explain for kind of the layperson who might have heard of these markers.
• 11:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Number one, what test could they ask for that you tested on this woman?
• 11:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And then number two, what does that mean in terms of microbial infections, especially tick borne infections?
• 11:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Because I think, yes, really important.
• 11:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you're not going to be able to see this.
• 11:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Well, but this is a lab sheet.
• 11:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I do, yes.
• 11:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And in my medical detective substack and for those who don't know about my substack, it's free to sign up.
• 11:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's free of charge.
• 11:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I have done a series on Alzheimer's disease.
• 11:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Early on I did two, but now I have another four part series that is being released and in this lab section.
• 12:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I'll give you the codes right now.
• 12:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I especially like Quest labs.
• 12:07
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You can go to a Quest laboratory.
• 12:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is not a specialized lab.
• 12:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is Quest.
• 12:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is LabCorp.
• 12:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But I do like Quest.
• 12:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Specifically the beta amyloid 42, 40 ratio.
• 12:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Please take pens and papers for those people who are listening.
• 12:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The code is 11786.
• 12:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The code for P Tau 181 is 13690.
• 12:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The code for P Tau 217 is 13825.
• 12:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The code for Neurofilament Light is 13979.
• 12:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And the code to check your genetic markers to see if you have a genetic APOE variant like 4, 4 or 3, 4 that leads to higher rates of Alzheimer's genetically is code number 12563.
• 12:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you can go to a local lab like Quest and get these markers done.
• 13:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now I want to point out to people, if it comes back and you've had Lyme disease, please do not freak out.
• 13:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is actually a good thing.
• 13:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: There's hope for you.
• 13:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And interestingly enough, my agent, Jen Weiss just spoke to me yesterday and she called me up because she knows about this study and she told me about someone.
• 13:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I can't give, but let's say it's a very good friend of hers from college.
• 13:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And she said, by the way, doc, my friend right now is on lecanemab.
• 13:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She was treated by another Lyme literate doctor.
• 13:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She had only taken minocycline and a few other things and she had these markers and she's now on lecanemab.
• 13:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I said, jen, your friend needs to know about this study because it's a nine week oral protocol.
• 13:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We need to like check her markers before and after and then this gets published in the literature.
• 13:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right?
• 13:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I mean, so we're going to see probably a flood of studies now.
• 13:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They're going to start to come out on this.
• 13:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But it basically gives hope to people who had none.
• 13:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And the other part of it, so explaining what this is.
• 13:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So in my career with Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, you need to Know that the reason people have not made the relationship between Alzheimer's and Lyme is the difference of association versus causation.
• 14:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So in the medical literature, Alan McDonald.
• 14:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: God bless you, Alan, for all the great work you did.
• 14:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Eva Shopi from the University of new haven, Judith McClossy from Switzerland, who I know well, they published autopsy studies on Alzheimer's patients showing that they found Borrelia burgdorferi, the agent of Lyme disease, in the brains of these people with Alzheimer's.
• 14:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: That there was a direct association by Hill's criteria, by Cox criteria, meaning the association was such that if you had Lyme or other spirochetes like denticola, spirochetes from the mouth, you had somewhere between a 10 to 13 times higher rate of housing Alzheimer's.
• 14:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What they found in a study a few years ago, in these autopsy studies of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, important also for Parkinson's, they found biofilms, amyloid and P tau in these autopsy studies of these patients.
• 15:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the problem is it was all autopsy studies.
• 15:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: There was never a live study in a patient taking a biofilm persister drug regimen, which is ultimately what dapsone combination therapy is, and giving it to a patient who's alive and saying, okay, let's see what happens.
• 15:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is what this article basically did.
• 15:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So the reason it's never been fully accepted.
• 15:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: In fact, if you look at the guidelines by the American Academy of Neurology and the Infectious Disease Society of America and the American College of Rheumatology, none of these guidelines has said, oh, by the way, if you've been diagnosed with dementia and Alzheimer's disease, please get checked for Lyme, Borrelia burgdorferi.
• 15:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And the reason they haven't said it is because they've been denying that this is a chronic persistent infection, despite the fact that there's hundreds of articles proving it.
• 15:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I have 11 articles.
• 15:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is my 11th article on Dapsone in the published peer review medical literature.
• 15:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And we have 300 and roughly 75 people retrospectively where the number one effect of dapsone therapy was cognition.
• 16:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And in fact, when you flew out to New York to take my training course, right, with your doctor friend who deals with your football team locally there in Denver.
• 16:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We talked about all of these studies.
• 16:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But now, of course, I've done more because it was a few years ago, before the COVID pandemic, when you flew out and we had time together.
• 16:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So the point is, there's lots of studies showing Lyme persists in the body, but because of dysfunctional medical politics and because these were autopsy studies and no one had ever proven before that you can reverse these Alzheimer's biomarkers with antibiotic regimen Dapsone comment.
• 16:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's the first time it's ever been published, so that's why no one's accepted it.
• 16:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now I've reached out to Dale Bredesen in California.
• 16:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I spoke to Brian Fallon this morning and I said, okay, I'm ready for a two arm, you know, multicenter placebo controlled randomized trial.
• 16:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: One arm chronic Lyme patients, one arm Alzheimer's.
• 16:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We look at the 16 MSIDs factors in chronic Lyme, we give them dapsone therapy.
• 17:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We, we look at the 16 EMSync factors in Alzheimer's following the biomarkers in both groups.
• 17:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is going to be an amazing study because it's a randomized multicenter placebo study.
• 17:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's the gold standard.
• 17:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And although the study I submitted to the nih, because I did submit a study last year, I'm so certain of my results, they turned it down.
• 17:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Why?
• 17:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Oh, because Lyme, you know, we need this study, Dr. Horowitz, we need the research, but because Lyme's not a persistent infection, we're not interested.
• 17:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, I'm sorry, I beg your pardon.
• 17:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now I think the study will be approved, I'm pretty sure, because we're going to be fundraising through my 501c3, the MSIDS foundation, msidsfoundation.org and we're going to get the funds that they didn't give me last year to get a couple of good biostatisticians, get Mount Sinai and get Charles Chu from the University of San Francisco andrew Wiles group for the University of Arizona has shown some interest going to get these universities together and I'm sure Dale Bredesen will be interested.
• 18:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We're going to sit down at a big zoom table or maybe I'll convince everybody to get together in New York and we're going to hash out these details to do a gold standard study that no one will question.
• 18:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We have a solution, by the way.
• 18:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: My wife is now eight years in full remission from the Dapsone protocol.
• 18:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She was sick for 25 years and she had every MSIDS factor, all 16 on there.
• 18:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I have people in remission now for years, but I need the gold standard study to prove it to the scientific community.
• 18:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it's like a. I don't know, it's like, oh, for me, a revolution and a resurrection of my spirit.
• 18:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Even though I've been so happy to have discovered what I discovered, it's like, oh my God, we've got new things we can do to benefit the world.
• 18:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Yay.
• 18:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's.
• 18:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I don't know.
• 18:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I can't believe I'm like a little child who's so excited about this.
• 18:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Hey, guys.
• 18:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Just a quick interruption of the show to remind you if you have not yet seen the documentary Doctor Patient Movie, you can find it@doctor patientmovie.com they're free versions with commercials on YouTube or Tubi.
• 19:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Or you can go to Amazon Prime Doctor PatientMovie.com or just search Doctor Patient Movie on Amazon Prime.
• 19:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Take a look, share it with a friend or loved one who's suffering.
• 19:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I'm specifically mentioning on this episode because we deal with several patients, Burke and Ryan, in the movie, who have dealt with chronic Lyme disease and tick borne infections.
• 19:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So if you are someone out there you love is suffering from those kinds of illnesses, please check it out.
• 19:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Let me know what you think.
• 19:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And let's get back to the show with Dr. Richard Horowitz.
• 19:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You and me both.
• 19:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I could not wait to have this interview.
• 19:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So at the time this comes out, it'll already have been published, but in the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease reports, you have a paper coming out that suggests this direct relationship based on your clinical cases.
• 19:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But what you're saying is now we're going to hopefully have this randomized controlled trial which again is the gold standard that we can actually literally change and shift the way medicine is thinking about Alzheimer's disease.
• 20:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I could not be more excited.
• 20:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And it's so relevant because literally I don't know the exact stats on Alzheimer's, but it is exponentially increasing insulin.
• 20:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Do you have any little specific stats on how much of a big, you know, people know this is a big deal, but it is.
• 20:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's a tsunami waiting to happen.
• 20:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Well, to let people know how big a deal it is, and I checked the literature.
• 20:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is in the article.
• 20:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: By the way, you're going to be a little surprised to hear the statistic.
• 20:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I was when I was doing the review of the medical literature.
• 20:28
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So previously 46.5 million Americans have been told that they have preclinical dementia.
• 20:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: That's not a good number in roughly 350 million people.
• 20:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But here's what's even worse.
• 20:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They basically reported last year in 2025 that there's a 42% chance of becoming demented over 55 years old in the medical literature, it's like, what?
• 20:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And so when you think about this, it's like, why is everyone getting demented?
• 20:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Well, hold on.
• 21:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Lyme is an epidemic proportion.
• 21:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: BMG Global Health published a few years ago that 1 out of 7 people on the planet, 14.5% have been exposed to Lyme disease.
• 21:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The CDC told us a few years ago, 476,000 people roughly were getting Lyme every year.
• 21:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But when they looked at Medicare rates, it was seven times higher.
• 21:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Which means.
• 21:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What are we talking about here?
• 21:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: A few million Medicare patients who are at risk for dementia?
• 21:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Which means that based on the literature, conservatively based on Judith McClosy's work, at least 25% of all these Alzheimer's cases are being driven by Borrelia burgdorferi, by Lyme.
• 21:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I suspect, honestly, it's going to be higher because in the MSIDS model, in the 16 point model, where we have six major rivers of inflammation, infections, toxins, microbiome issues in the gut, leaky gut, intestinal hyperpilmeability with mast cell activation, vitamin mineral deficiencies, sleep disorders, those are the six big major rivers of inflammation causing an ocean of inflammation.
• 22:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: As you know well as I do, inflammation is what's driving all chronic illness.
• 22:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right?
• 22:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I mean, that's basically the point of this book, is that it showed up.
• 22:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And by the way, what I was shocked at in writing this book, I'm so happy Simon and Schuster gave me a contract, is almost every major disease I looked at, from ADD, ADHD to autism to Alzheimer's to the three Bs, Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella to Cs, cancer, cardiovascular disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, D, digestive disorders, E, environmental medicine, F, functional medicine, H, hormone disorders, I, immune disorders and mood disorders.
• 22:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It didn't matter what major chronic disease I looked at.
• 22:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: All 16 MSIDS factors were found in every disease.
• 22:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It was like, so now we have a new way of looking at chronic illness.
• 22:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And this is now not just Lyme.
• 22:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Long Covid, by the way, is part of this also.
• 22:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's in the book.
• 22:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I published it a few years ago.
• 23:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it's not just Lyme, long Covid and Alzheimer's.
• 23:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It means if you have Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis and you've had, I know, your own experience with these, or cancer, which you've had your own experience with these, all 16 Empson factors, meaning, yeah, the microbiome, you, gut's important.
• 23:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Environmental toxins are important, in fact.
• 23:18
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it means it's a new way of looking at these chronic illnesses.
• 23:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But now this is going to blow open the field with research on an epidemic that's Alzheimer's is doubling basically in numbers, 42%.
• 23:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's kind of like, wow, what do we do?
• 23:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it's like, well, look at the 16 points.
• 23:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Make sure you don't have chlamydia pneumonia that's active.
• 23:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You don't have Borrelia burgdorferi, that you don't have lots of mold toxins in your body, which suppresses your immune system and causes problems with cognition.
• 23:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's a brand new way of saying I'm sick.
• 23:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And instead of naming the disease and throwing drugs at it, which you and I have been avoiding pretty much our whole lifetimes, we're trying to unravel the root causes, which is what I found basically in my new book, Ending Chronic Illness, and is in this Alzheimer's paper in the Journal of Alzheimer's, A Disease Report.
• 24:07
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it's.
• 24:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I mean, it's miraculous, Jill, that this is happening after 41 years, where, again, what I did in one field spilling over into another.
• 24:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It is a blessing.
• 24:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And again, going back to what I said, for those people listening, the spiritual science experiment that I started with 41 years ago, I promise you, it's not that I'm that special.
• 24:28
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, these are blessings that happen from planting seeds in the ground.
• 24:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You have a great heart.
• 24:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Anyone who knows you and look, they'll look at you and go, my God, what a good person.
• 24:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What a great heart.
• 24:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right?
• 24:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like just you're.
• 24:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Most people are good people, but they don't think of planting seeds in the ground, of aspiration, of how can I benefit the world in more and more ways.
• 24:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that's all I did.
• 24:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And now it's coming back 41 years later.
• 24:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Oh, I got full body goosebumps just because this is so where.
• 24:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And honestly, the future of.
• 25:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Of healing, not only on this model, but on a spiritual level, is understanding our greater meaning and purpose.
• 25:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And if we can share the things that the divine has kind of showed us in our careers with even people trying to heal, this greater meaning and purpose actually adds value and healing to their lives.
• 25:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Now, I want to just step back a little because you said a lot in that last section.
• 25:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's so important.
• 25:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I love every bit of it.
• 25:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But people have heard me on this podcast say a lot with Dale Brezin, which I've worked with as well, about mold being a cause of Alzheimer's.
• 25:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But I want to clarify, because this is all connected and you Said it, but I want to say it again.
• 25:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So often what we see is, as you mentioned, mold is so immunocompromising, it causes a massive deficiency in the T cell function and the B cell function and inflammation in the microglia of the brain.
• 25:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So even though you might have heard me say, oh, mold is a cause, it's all connected because say you have underlying 24% or 20 whatever percent of the population has Borrelia burgdorfaeri.
• 25:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: As soon as they get a mold exposure, that weakened immune system, I think of it like whack a mole.
• 26:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: These old infections, Chlamydia pneumonia, mycoplasma pneumonia or whatever things that are underneath or the three B's will pop up and create issues.
• 26:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And what you're saying is this incredible new data, as we hit those infections, we can reverse the classical markers, which is the tau and the beta amyloid.
• 26:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And again, you've said this, but just to be clear, for those listening who this might all be a foreign language, what these are is beta amyloid is an extracellular protein and tau is an intracellular protein.
• 26:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And they're just the immune system trying its best to wall off this process of overactivation of the immune system.
• 26:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But it actually all connects and I love it.
• 26:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So we can both say that mold and Lyme is all connected, but really what it is a toxic exposure weakens immune system and then all these infections are at play and active.
• 26:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And so this is really at the root of getting to curing Alzheimer's disease, which we haven't said that before, and.
• 26:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What's clear about this?
• 26:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And getting back to the initial question of what is beta amyloid, what is P tau?
• 27:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you get an infection in your brain with Borrelia, you're getting cognitive complaints of memory, concentration problems, word finding problems, walking into rooms, forgetting why you're walking in, reversing numbers, etc.
• 27:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now you're finding these biomarkers basically of inflammation.
• 27:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right.
• 27:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I mean, these are pathological proteins.
• 27:18
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But what's happening is the beta amyloid is basically trying to protect your brain.
• 27:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what the researchers have not looked at, what they've been doing, is trying to remove beta amyloid without trying to figure out why.
• 27:29
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Why is the beta amyloid there in the first place?
• 27:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it's like epidemic of Lyme disease, epidemic Chlamydia pneumonia, mold toxins.
• 27:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what it is these infections and toxins which are always at the top of my rivers of inflammation on this 16 point map microbiome important leaky gut Leaky brain barrier important.
• 27:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But what happens is the beta amyloid, there's this sticky form of amyloid, which is the beta amyloid 42.
• 27:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What happens is you start getting these amyloid plaques that are forming, trying to wall off the infection.
• 28:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But what it's doing is disrupting neuronal communication.
• 28:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What then happens is it's then driving this phosphorylated tau.
• 28:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So these tau proteins are like microcubles to keep your neurons functioning.
• 28:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And so that the communication between neurons is correct, basically, these microtubules, they start getting all into these tangles.
• 28:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And again, the neurons don't communicate properly.
• 28:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that's when the memory concentration problems happen.
• 28:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it's a downstream effect with the amyloid driving the P town.
• 28:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What's interesting, in this patient, her beta amyloid was actually not that high.
• 28:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It was in normal range when we did the study and we published it, but after were done, and this is what's interesting about P tau.
• 28:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: P tau is reflecting beta amyloid.
• 28:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It turns out when the P town goes down, the beta amyloid goes down.
• 28:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that's what happened is her beta amyloid ratios improved.
• 28:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you could actually see when you look at the graph, it's opposite because it, when it goes up, that's actually what you want with the 40 to 40 ratio.
• 29:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it showed that were lowering down her beta amyloid in the brain while the P tau was going down.
• 29:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It has never been done before in medicine.
• 29:13
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it's the first time we've gone from a hypothesis, looking at autopsy studies of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and infections, to now actually doing this in a live person in vivo and going, hey, here's a solution that no one has been able to prove.
• 29:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Let's get those studies done.
• 29:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Because again, it's one case study.
• 29:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I don't want to jump out of my skin yet, but the reason I know it's going to work again, I said this before.
• 29:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: When you look at all these roughly 375 patients that I published in the literature, I've done 11 studies on dapsone.
• 29:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The most significant effect was always cognition.
• 29:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that is why I am sure that you're going to see an effect in this.
• 29:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Because many of these patients that I know, including my wife, their memory and concentration has stayed fine year after year.
• 30:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If it didn't stay fine, right, I would have seen it in these patients where they would have kept saying to me, they relapse.
• 30:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now, when they do relapse, why do they relapse?
• 30:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They have babesia that has not been properly treated, bartonella is present, which interferes with the nine week dapsone protocol.
• 30:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They minimally need without mold, four pulses of high dose dapsone combination therapy.
• 30:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But after you've been through the nine week protocol, you're talking 13 days of oral antibiotics, generic every two to three months.
• 30:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now, if mold is not there, four pulses of high dose dapsone will generally get rid of Bart.
• 30:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But if mold is there, you may need 5, 6, 7.
• 30:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I think the most I've seen is maybe 8.
• 30:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Because as we just talked about, the mold is suppressing your immune system and it's also causing brain changes at the same point.
• 30:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And by the way, regarding your immune system, these people with long Covid who also got T cell exhaustion.
• 30:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now your B cells have been affected by Lyme disease.
• 30:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So your B cells are made in your bone marrow, B for bone marrow, T from your thymus, T cell exhaustion.
• 31:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So borrelia is knocking out your B cells.
• 31:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you're no longer making IGG antibodies, you're making igm.
• 31:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So if you go to your Lyme doctor and you notice you have a C CDC positive IgM, Western blot or immunoblot, 10 years later, it's not because it's a false positive, it's because borrelia knocked out that part of your immune system where you're not making IGG antibodies.
• 31:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And we published back in healthcare back in 2018 that 20% of our 200 patients on Dapsone therapy had chronic variable immune deficiency.
• 31:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Lyman bartonella was knocking out their immune system, then comes along Covid with T cell exhaustion, then comes along mold.
• 31:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now your immune system can't fight these chronic infections.
• 31:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: That is why you've got to look at all of these MSIDS factors at the same point.
• 31:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But this is going to give hope to millions and millions of people.
• 31:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I am so excited to share it with people in my new book, Ending Chronic Illness from Simon and Schuster.
• 31:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: All of this is laid out and in fact what I put in the book because some of my doctor friends have been afraid to use dapsone.
• 32:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But this study in the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease reports is going to change their mind because once the biomarkers come back positive, it's going to be like, doc, please give me dapsone combination therapy, right?
• 32:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's no time to hold back.
• 32:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But I'm interested to see what people are doing.
• 32:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: SOT therapy and ozone and hyperbaric and hyperthermia and peptides, things that do help Lyme Patients, you now need to be doing these studies to look at what is happening to these biomarkers because we need to protect our patients brains going forward.
• 32:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And now that we know we are finding these Alzheimer's biomarkers in patients with chronic Lyme and it's possible some of these things will help, but it needs to be proven now scientifically.
• 32:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the beauty is no matter what your chronic disease is now, there's hope for people that they didn't have before.
• 32:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And what a beautiful thing to provide.
• 32:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like at the end of my one clinical career, it's now like okay, I guess I'm going to be working on the research field, working from the one to you know, trying to benefit millions of.
• 33:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I contacted Dr. J.B. from the NIH, the head and I said hey, if you'd like to talk about this please, I'm available.
• 33:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I don't know if you read your emails or not, but now's the time for us to all come together.
• 33:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Anyone who's been doing this needs to be doing this and checking their patients because now there's a way for us to protect patients in ways that we just didn't think of before.
• 33:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it's really such an exciting time.
• 33:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah, I could not be more excited.
• 33:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And one of the things I see we have a lot of listeners who are other doctors and professionals and I think they need to absolutely get their hands on a copy of your book because the way you write, I've seen all the work that you've done before.
• 33:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's a very and I've been to your teaching in New York and it's an incredible.
• 33:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: What we need to do is really change the way medicine is being done.
• 33:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: As you started out, instead of just going to the ICD10 code, giving a label for a patient and sending them on their way, we're actually going to root cause.
• 33:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Now you mentioned your MSIDS model.
• 33:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Anyone familiar with you has read about that.
• 34:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But maybe just one more time for those listening, I think that's such a brilliant way of thinking of it.
• 34:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And you've like you said all the A, B, C, D, E, F all through the types of diseases.
• 34:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This can benefit every single one of them.
• 34:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what this is and you and I have been knowing this for a long time, the reason people get acute and mostly chronic illness is inflammation.
• 34:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the question is, where's the inflammation coming from?
• 34:26
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So having seen over 13,000 chronically aligned patients during the last 41 years, every year I would discover like a new Piece to the puzzle.
• 34:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So, for example, about probably like 35 years ago, a woman comes into my office.
• 34:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She's in a wheelchair.
• 34:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She can't walk.
• 34:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She's five years sick with chronic lyme.
• 34:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Seeing a very good lyme literate doctor.
• 34:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She can't walk.
• 34:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I take a history.
• 34:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She says, she's in her 30s.
• 34:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She says, Doc, I got drenching night sweatshirt.
• 34:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And now usually it's a man.
• 34:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'll make the joke.
• 34:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Oh, are you in menopause?
• 34:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right.
• 34:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But it was a woman.
• 34:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I couldn't make the joke.
• 34:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I said, you know, it's funny.
• 34:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I just got back from a lyme conference, and there's this parasite called babesia, and it causes malaria like symptoms.
• 35:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's not supposed to be in dutchess county, New York.
• 35:07
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Let me check you for it.
• 35:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I spoke to Rick Ostfeld from the institute of ecosystem studies.
• 35:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We sent out ticks from our area in dutchess county.
• 35:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Guess what they found?
• 35:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Babesia Microti.
• 35:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We did PCRs and fish testing in this patient.
• 35:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Positive.
• 35:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And also hundreds of patients at the time.
• 35:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I gave her at the time because it worked atovicon and azithromycin, mepron, azithromax.
• 35:28
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I published actually the first abstract on this, by the way, at the Lyme disease foundation way before it was published in the new England journal of medicine.
• 35:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that was thanks to Joe Boriscano, who basically encouraged me to do it.
• 35:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: She got out of the wheelchair and started walking.
• 35:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And five, six months later, she's walking, she's skiing, and she, by the way, has done dapsone combination therapy and her brain and all of her symptoms have improved.
• 35:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So that was the first, like, okay, parasites.
• 35:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Parasites is part of it.
• 35:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So we look at infections on the msits map.
• 35:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: There's a bacteria, the big ones that we're finding that really you look at is borrelia, lime and bartonella.
• 36:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And there's about 18 or 19 pathogenic species.
• 36:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So a barred fish is good for that.
• 36:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And there's other bacteria.
• 36:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But let's for the moment, make it simple.
• 36:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Borrelia, bart, Infections with bacteria, Parasites like babesia, C. You can have viruses, people get long Covid they get reactivation of Epstein Barr, Herpes virus 6.
• 36:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: T cell exhaustion makes them sick.
• 36:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And d, fungal infection.
• 36:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it could be candida overgrowth in the gut, or you're getting fungus in other parts.
• 36:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And of course, mold then comes into the toxins.
• 36:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So that's one infections, right?
• 36:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Number two is environmental toxins.
• 36:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So again, we'll simplify because there's Hundreds to thousands of environmental toxins getting in daily in everyone's body.
• 36:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Which is why if you came to my kitchen and you saw what I swallowed every day, you'd go, you have got to be kidding me.
• 36:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it's like, look, everyone in my family is dead from cancer.
• 36:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'd like to be around on the planet longer.
• 36:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what are the main toxins?
• 36:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Let's be simple now.
• 36:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Let's look at mold and heavy metals.
• 36:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We'll be very simple.
• 36:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They're showing up in most of our patients.
• 37:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: C, number three, look at the microbiome of your gut.
• 37:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If you don't have enough short chain fatty acid producing bacteria that lower inflammation.
• 37:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that's why I take a scoop of fiber every day with mgp fiber from orthomolecular.
• 37:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I put organic flaxseed, black seed, hemp seed in my yogurt, getting in fiber as a prebiotic.
• 37:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'm taking four different probiotics.
• 37:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'm taking postbiotics with PDC activate, right, to stimulate my immune system.
• 37:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But number three is the microbiome of your gut because they've now shown what the gut brain axis.
• 37:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Whatever is happening with those bacteria in your gut is affecting your brain.
• 37:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Number four, also the gut.
• 37:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Many people have leaky gut, intestinal hyperpermeability.
• 37:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And you know this from glycol polysaccharide.
• 37:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The LPS gets across the barrier, gets into your brain and then basically leaky brain, leaky gut, leaky brain.
• 37:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: LPS starts creating inflammation.
• 37:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Number five, vitamin mineral deficiencies.
• 37:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So when you're dealing with all of these thousands of environmental toxins, you're using up vitamins and minerals.
• 38:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Many of my patients are deficient in magnesium.
• 38:07
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You need magnesium for 300 detox enzymes in your body.
• 38:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If I'm exercising frequently and I don't regularly take magnesium, I'm cramping up.
• 38:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So if you're someone who's listening and you've got asthma and you've got low back pain with spasm, you got irritable bowel, you know what links up all those things?
• 38:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Magnesium deficiency.
• 38:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right.
• 38:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then there's copper deficiency, which you need for superoxide dismutase.
• 38:29
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right?
• 38:29
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And zinc deficiency, which you need to lower inflammation and help with your phase one liver pathways.
• 38:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Many of our patients are deficient.
• 38:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And you don't just check in the serum.
• 38:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You check red blood cell minerals, which is where 99% of these minerals are located.
• 38:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The sixth is sleep.
• 38:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They've shown that if you don't sleep properly and at least get seven hours, six or less dementia is going to rise.
• 38:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So those are your six main rivers of inflammation.
• 38:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now you've got these rivers of inflammation causing an ocean of inflammation which, with downstream effects.
• 39:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what happens from the inflammation?
• 39:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It goes to your brain and it hits your hypothalamic pituitary axis and it starts shutting down your hormones.
• 39:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now these men come in their 20s with no testosterone, telling us, I've got no Libido in my 20s.
• 39:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And they've got a testosterone of 150, which is like what it should be when you're 95 years old, because the luteinizing hormone, the hormone that normally produces testosterone, it's been shut down from the Lyme from inflammation in the brain, or women go into early menopause or your adrenals.
• 39:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: 99% Of my patients have basically poor adrenal function.
• 39:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Poor adrenal function.
• 39:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You can't fight infections, you're tired.
• 39:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Then you get all this free radical oxidative stress that damages your mitochondria.
• 39:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You need mitochondrial function for your neurons to work, for your heart to work, for every organ in your body to work.
• 39:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then you start getting neurological symptoms and psychological symptoms, and it affects your autonomic nervous system.
• 39:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you get POTS dysautonomia.
• 39:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Except the POTS dysautonomia is also caused by your mold toxins and by your long Covid.
• 40:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: At the same time, it's caused by your Lyme and your Bartonella.
• 40:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you stand up and you get dizzy and you feel like you're going to pass out, and you've got fatigue and brain fog and anxiety and palpitations, but it's not from your Lyme.
• 40:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's because you can't hold the blood pressure standing up and none of your autonomic nervous system is working.
• 40:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then your liver gets affected by all these toxins.
• 40:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You're getting non alcoholic steatohepatitis, which is causing metabolic syndrome with insulin resistance, which drives your Alzheimer's disease, because glucose intolerance and everybody kind of getting the picture here.
• 40:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then you're deconditioned, right, because you're so sick, you're in bed and you're deconditioned and you get these resistant pain syndromes where people come in on 480mg of morphine sulfate and they've got some such bad neuropathy.
• 40:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They're on gabapentin and they're on Lyrica and they're on Elavil amitriptyline and they still can't clear the neuropathy which is migrating around their body with the tingling, numbness, stabbing, burning and tingling.
• 41:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Neuropathy is only caused by one disease, Lyme disease.
• 41:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It is not caused by anything else according to literature review.
• 41:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I just basically gave you in a nutshell these 16 factors, which again, they're in my prior books, why Can't I get Better?
• 41:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: New York Times bestseller, How can I get Better?
• 41:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: National bestseller.
• 41:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But I took the 16 point MSIDS model and I looked at these 16 factors in all these different diseases, like autism, all 16 factors, ADHD.
• 41:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, I didn't know this.
• 41:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Nobody knew this because nobody bothers to do a search of the medical literature to find this out.
• 41:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This should transform the entire field of chronic disease medicine.
• 41:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So while I'm discovering a potential cure for Alzheimer's, please, thank you, Buddhist, bodhisattvas, God, all of the spiritual beings who help this happen.
• 41:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: While I'm discovering, it's like, oh, by the way, you may also have solutions for all the chronic diseases.
• 41:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like I did.
• 41:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What?
• 41:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah, amazing.
• 41:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's like when you go to root cause, it translates into really every condition that we deal with because we're actually going to the causes, the cause, the true causes of our degeneration of the system.
• 42:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So.
• 42:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And you know, as a functional medicine doc, it's not that you do this all the time.
• 42:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You're brilliant.
• 42:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I know the way you work.
• 42:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If I was sick, you'd be one of the first people I would be calling because you're one of the few brains and hearts I would trust in medicine with this, by the way, if that ever happens and my wife doesn't know this, make sure you tell her this.
• 42:26
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the fact is that even if you and I both know mitochondrial dysfunction or we know about leaky gut, what sometimes happens with these complex patients who come in with 38 symptoms?
• 42:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And by the way, if you go on my website cangetbetter.com you can download the validated Lyme symptom questionnaire under questionnaire and you can take it and score it.
• 42:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And if you're 63 or higher, there's a very high probability you have chronic Lyme.
• 42:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And So the website cangetbetter.com, you just download it.
• 42:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If someone's listening going, gee, those symptoms certainly sound like I have chronic Lyme.
• 42:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: That's how you can basically look at the questionnaire and download it.
• 43:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the point being, even as functional medicine docs, we need a questionnaire to look at questions one and 22.
• 43:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We might forget to ask did you have drenching night sweats and day sweats and air hunger?
• 43:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Because she's so busy with these clinical symptoms.
• 43:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The beauty of the questionnaire, it allows us to look at the whole gestalt of all of the questions at the same point.
• 43:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the point being, we might say, well, I checked your adrenals, but, oh, yeah, I forgot to check the testosterone, or did I check for leaky gut?
• 43:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You know, I checked.
• 43:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it's like a good.
• 43:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like a checkbox, right?
• 43:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like.
• 43:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's not, you know, you have to be a brilliant scientist.
• 43:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's just, look at all 16 factors.
• 43:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: When you're sick, use it as a.
• 43:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like a little checkbox next to you just to make sure you're giving comprehensive care to your patients.
• 43:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You know, so even for us who've been doing this for a long time, I need it.
• 43:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I need a checkbox to go back and go, did I make sure I went through all 16?
• 43:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's just an easy way of making sure nothing gets missed.
• 43:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 43:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We use in our clinic your questionnaire and of course, give you credit in that.
• 44:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And if people are listening or walking or driving or something, we will be sure in the show notes to link up to that questionnaire.
• 44:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you want to take a peek at that.
• 44:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I think that's a really great way to start.
• 44:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This is so exciting.
• 44:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: The last thing I want to talk about before we kind of wind up is dapsone, obviously, is having this incredible effect because it's one of the most powerful things that you've come across.
• 44:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Is there any contraindications, or do you want to just run through just a real brief overview of dapsone, the appropriateness of it for certain populations, and if.
• 44:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If it's a clinician, especially if there's any types of people that wouldn't be candidates.
• 44:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Sure.
• 44:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So the.
• 44:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The biggest problem with dapsone.
• 44:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Dapsone, by the way, has been around for 50, 60, 70 years.
• 44:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And the way, by the way, that I figured out, this is by the way, where the universe guides you.
• 44:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Right.
• 44:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So I'm in my residency at Mount Sinai at Elmhurst Hospital, City Hospital in New York.
• 44:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This goes back to 1984 to 1987, middle of the HIV epidemic.
• 45:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'm seeing all these patients with tuberculosis with mai, with mycobacterium avium intracellulare with TB because their immune system is shot.
• 45:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: One of my mentors from Mount Sinai was an infectious disease doctor along with Dr. Dave, who was a gastrodoctor were using at the time inh rifampin pyrazinum were using TB drugs.
• 45:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: There was something in the back of my mind that when John Hopkins researchers back about 10 years ago, and it was roughly at the same point that Eva Shopi at the University of New Haven, Kim Lewis at Northeastern Stanford, they were discovering that Lyme disease is a biofilm persistor bacteria.
• 45:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what does that mean?
• 45:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It means that not that it persists.
• 45:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We knew that at least those of us in the field knew it persisted.
• 45:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But it means it persisted in a specific form.
• 45:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that form is a biofilm persisture form, like tuberculosis, like leprosy.
• 45:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now, how do you cure leprosy?
• 45:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You give rifampin and dapsone for a year.
• 45:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You basically cure leprosy.
• 45:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So how did I come up with this protocol?
• 46:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I said, well, leprosy is a biofilm persistor bug infection.
• 46:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I wonder what would happen if I took doxycycline or minnow and added it to rifampin adaptone.
• 46:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'll bet it'll work.
• 46:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it was a home run out of the park.
• 46:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: My first paper on Dapsone was 2016.
• 46:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It was 10 years ago and we immediately saw effects.
• 46:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But here's the problem.
• 46:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It took me 10 years to figure out the dosage of dapsone because when I published my first study, it was 25 to 100 milligrams helpful.
• 46:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But people relapsed when they stopped the protocol.
• 46:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So then over the next couple of years, I was playing with higher doses.
• 46:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And what I noticed as I keep increasing the doses of dapsone, it was more effective, but so were the side effects.
• 46:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what are the side effects of dapsone which you have to be careful with.
• 46:46
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I call it do no harm.
• 46:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: H is for Herxheimer reactions, A is for anemia, R is for rashes if you're sulfur sensitive.
• 46:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Although, thank God, most people who, for example, have a Bactrim allergy with sulfamethoxazole, trimethyrim can take it.
• 47:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And if you're not sure, you can get tested for it.
• 47:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But if we give them an H1, H2 blocker like Zyrtec, Pepcid, cetirizine, famotidine, it usually it's fine, people can tolerate it.
• 47:13
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And the last is harm M from meth, hemoglobinemia, where you don't carry oxygen well in the blood.
• 47:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So let's go through it one by one.
• 47:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So dapsone is a sulfur drug.
• 47:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So if you're severely sulfur sensitive, and I've never personally Seen anybody with Stevens Johnson syndrome where their skin falls off giving a sulfur drug, Never seen it.
• 47:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If you had that, you would probably not want to take dapsone, but because it's not really common, you normally, most people who are sulfur sensitive usually can take it.
• 47:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But your doctor is going to have to use an H1 H2 blocker and start very low, like 25 every other day, making sure there's no rash.
• 47:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But you cannot have an enzyme deficiency called glucose 6 phosphate dehydrogenase, G6PD, because if you do, you basically will get more anemia and your meth hemoglobin levels will be higher.
• 48:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now, I've only actually seen two or three people in 13,000 people that were G6PD deficient.
• 48:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: One of them, by the way, his hemoglobin was so high at 16, I said to him, listen, this is really the only known, from my perspective, cure answer for this disease.
• 48:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: We did it.
• 48:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: He got through it.
• 48:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Basically.
• 48:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: His hemoglobin, I think was down to maybe 12, not worse than anybody else.
• 48:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But I would not advise, by the way, if you g. I'm just telling you a story here.
• 48:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If you're G6PD deficient, you're generally not going to do this, but it happened one time and hemoglobin was high enough.
• 48:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So that's really the contraindication.
• 48:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the way we get around the side effects of anemia, and this is where the doctors unfortunately get scared for no good reason.
• 48:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If you're, for example, a man or a woman with a hemoglobin, let's say of 16, you literally could do this protocol with your eyes shut and never do a lab.
• 48:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And you'll be fine because you're going to lower your hemoglobin by roughly 4 grams.
• 48:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You'll be 12 at the end of double dose dapsone, on rare occasion, you will drop 5 or 6 grams.
• 49:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You'll be down from 16 to 10.
• 49:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: That's the most I've ever seen it.
• 49:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then two months later, you're back to baseline or higher.
• 49:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So you will get a temporary anemia.
• 49:13
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But what has stopped some of the doctors of using it is they look at the anemia and they go, oh my God, what's happening?
• 49:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like it always comes back to normal.
• 49:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So if you ask me the question, you're doing this for 10 years, you've done this for over a thousand people.
• 49:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Has anyone ever, even one time where the labs did not come back to normal?
• 49:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The answer is no.
• 49:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It has always come back to normal.
• 49:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now you got to make sure you're not iron deficient as a woman.
• 49:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If you're a woman and you have a heavy menstrual cycle in the middle of dapsone, you may need to stop it and take extra iron, right?
• 49:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the beauty of the regimen is even if you start and stop, you can start back where you started.
• 49:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The other thing that I did in this book, which I think is going to help people in ending chronic illness to get through the dapsone, I showed them how to start with low dose dapsone.
• 50:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I don't generally talk about this, but because there's some scaredy cats out there, it's like, oh my God, the anemia, it's like, oh my God.
• 50:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Get it, you know, get a grip on it, please.
• 50:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And the meth hemoglobin, they're blue.
• 50:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Their lips and their hands are blue.
• 50:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, yeah, methylene blue does that.
• 50:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Also.
• 50:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: The average meth hemoglobin is 5 or 6% in 2/3 of the people on double dose, high dose dapsone.
• 50:28
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now what is a dangerous methemoglobin?
• 50:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: 50%, 60%, Not 5 or 6.
• 50:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Lately the highest I've seen it is 9%.
• 50:37
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now you could have a headache and feel short of breath and have bluish hands and lips, but guess what?
• 50:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's not dangerous as long as the methemoglobin is not higher than 20%.
• 50:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If it was higher than 20, I would stop it.
• 50:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I was using more methylene blue, but it actually doesn't go higher than 9 or 10%.
• 50:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Because what I did in designing the protocol, and you understand, it took me 10 years to figure this out, I reversed the anemia and stopped it from getting bad by using over 300mg of folic acid, 200mg of folinic acid, leucovorin and 120mg of L methylfolate, which I use Zaquil XR from Zymogen.
• 51:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now you and I both know there are these hypermethylators and you gotta be careful.
• 51:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But you know something?
• 51:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Even with it, I don't know, for some reason it doesn't seem to be a problem, at least in my population.
• 51:26
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: In yours you might see it, but I haven't seen it be a problem.
• 51:29
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And because I figured out the doses of methylene blue, will you slowly work it up weekly tolerate it?
• 51:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Because you can't be on psych drugs, you have this contraindications to methylene blue because you can get Serotonin syndrome, high fevers get stiff.
• 51:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I've never seen it happen.
• 51:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If you follow the protocol the way it's described.
• 51:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And by the way, you will have to stop your psych drugs before you do this with your SSRIs, your SNRIs bupropion is not as bad, but we still stop them all.
• 51:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You can't be on narcotics.
• 51:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: There are contraindications in this protocol where you can't use methylene blue and dapsone with certain drugs.
• 52:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So.
• 52:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But guess what?
• 52:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: 99.9% Of the people can do this.
• 52:08
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And now that it's 10 years later and I've done it in over 1,000 people, easily, I can tell you with confidence.
• 52:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Is it easy?
• 52:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Absolutely not.
• 52:17
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I tell people this regimen is like cancer chemotherapy.
• 52:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is going to kick your butt.
• 52:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You are not going to like the way you feel on this protocol.
• 52:24
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You will be saying, Dr. H, what are you doing to me?
• 52:28
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it's like, I understand, but just like if you had lung cancer or some other cancer or let's take non Hodgkin's lymphoma, which has a good cure rate with CHOP therapy.
• 52:36
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I said to you, I'm going to lower your white cell counts and lower your platelets and give you all these side effects, but you've got a great chance.
• 52:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You're going to be in full remission.
• 52:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's a nine week protocol, folks.
• 52:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's not like staying forever.
• 52:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But.
• 52:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But again, if it's Bart, if it's mold, if it's Babesia, if it's other msids factors, you are going to likely need more dapsone pulses.
• 52:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But by the way, this is all in my published literature, which is you can read about.
• 53:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's all in my new book, Ending Chronic Illness.
• 53:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But the point being, this is not a long protocol compared to what some people are doing out there.
• 53:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So yes, there are side effects.
• 53:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Herxes, anemia, possible rashes, which I almost never see, Methemoglobin.
• 53:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But it took me 10 years of tweaking the doses of the folic acid and the methylene blue and the antioxidants they're on high dose glutathione to keep down methemoglobin with cimetidine, an old drug from like ages, bygone, which lowers meth, hemoglobin, you know, with nac, with alpha lipoic acid, with vitamin C, with vitamin E, with nadh, inada, all of these things lower meth, hemoglobin.
• 53:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So why are you taking, you know, 80 pills per day.
• 53:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You're taking 80 pills per day because eight of them are probiotics with like a trillion.
• 53:47
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I've got 500 trillion twice a day, by the way, of these probiotics.
• 53:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Nobody gets C. Diff on this protocol, right?
• 53:53
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I've got like 8 leucovorin and 8 folic acid.
• 53:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Sixteen of those supplements are just folic acid.
• 54:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then you got a bunch of glutathione.
• 54:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So most of the protocol is your supplements protecting your microbiome, protecting you from the anemia, protecting you from, you know, these herxes.
• 54:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So basically it took a decade for me to figure this out in a way that I've got it down to a nine week protocol with a boatload of pills that you'll be smiling when you do this protocol.
• 54:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But if you go on my website and can get better.
• 54:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then I stopped the consultation service, by the way, because I was getting calls and emails from all over the world.
• 54:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But if you look under consults, you'll see all the links to the Dapsone articles.
• 54:34
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I have documentaries that I've done from Doctors Talks where you can see on the first documentary from 2024, 18 people who are chronically ill and you will hear their story of I had Lyme, I had Babesia, I had Bartonella, I had mold.
• 54:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Oh my God, I'm so much better.
• 54:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Thank you, Dr. H. And Dapsone protocol.
• 54:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And then the next person goes on.
• 54:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I mean, it's pretty convincing.
• 54:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So if you want to like really understand, not just reading the literature, but listening to people tell their stories on my website can get better.
• 55:03
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Under there you'll see the documentaries.
• 55:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I have a podcast with Dr. Charlie Bizzle and Dr. Moss.
• 55:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like, hey guys, are you using Dapsone?
• 55:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: What's your experience like?
• 55:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Oh, yeah, it's like the only thing we're finding that we want to use at this point.
• 55:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like, if you listen to people long enough, you'll go, not easy.
• 55:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But if I was sick, this is what I would be doing.
• 55:23
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And my wife, you know, again, she's eight years in full remission, my beloved.
• 55:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And she was sick for 25 years.
• 55:29
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So it's like, it's the shortest, quickest, most effective protocol I know of.
• 55:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And now it looks like it may help with Borrelia Burglarify with Alzheimer's.
• 55:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Like, what?
• 55:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, what?
• 55:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This is so exciting.
• 55:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This may be my favorite podcast of the decade because it's such good information.
• 55:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So ending Chronic Illness is the book that is.
• 55:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Is it released?
• 55:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Is it out yet?
• 55:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Or is it soon?
• 55:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's going to be released officially October 13th.
• 55:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Perfect.
• 55:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I really want to thank my agent, Jen Weissen, Simon and Schuster, because if they didn't give me the contract, when I.
• 56:04
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They gave me the contract, I said, listen, let me do a search on Alzheimer's.
• 56:07
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This is, by the way, how they got me to write it.
• 56:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I showed them that all 16 factors were associated.
• 56:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I already published on the 16 factors, the MSIDS, for long Covid.
• 56:16
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I published that in Microorganisms 2024.
• 56:20
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And of course, I published on chronic Lyme.
• 56:21
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But what I didn't know, and they were, they had faith in me.
• 56:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I didn't know it applied to ADHD and autism and chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia and digestive disorders.
• 56:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I had no idea until I did a deep dive in the medical literature and I went, are infections associated with ADHD bacterial?
• 56:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Yes.
• 56:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Viral?
• 56:42
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Yes.
• 56:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Fungal?
• 56:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Yeah.
• 56:43
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It was like.
• 56:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And I did it for every disease.
• 56:45
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it's like, oh, my God, I didn't know this.
• 56:49
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: This means nobody knows this.
• 56:51
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Which means we have just broken open the field of chronic disease medicine with the next big one going to be Alzheimer's, but it's going to end up applying.
• 56:59
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So now we're gonna need all these.
• 57:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Now we need all these randomized multicenter placebo trials for adhd, for autism, for cancer.
• 57:06
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I mean, this breaks open the field of chronic disease medicine.
• 57:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So if, you know, Bobby Kennedy wants to know where to put the NIH money, for me, this is it.
• 57:15
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Just take all of these chronic diseases, apply the MSIDS model, and look at this, and let's see what we got, and we may be able to transform the whole landscape of chronic disease medicine.
• 57:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's so exciting.
• 57:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I could not agree more.
• 57:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I. I'm just smiling so big.
• 57:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Most of all, I just feel a deep sense of gratitude for you following that spiritual leading to just ask for wisdom.
• 57:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Because so often we ask, it comes, and it has clearly, abundantly blessed your life.
• 57:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And now you are blessing the lives of not only hundreds of thousands of clinicians, but millions of patients who will be affected.
• 57:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I can't wait to see you.
• 57:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I and all the cadre of physicians who believe that this is really root cause medicine, how we can change the landscape because it is ready, people are ready, people are hungry, and the time is now.
• 58:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I don't know what else to say except just thank you from the bottom of my heart.
• 58:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Oh, it's my pleasure.
• 58:14
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And, you know, ultimately for our country, when you consider that 86% of our health care costs are chronic disease, and 70% of the deaths in this country are chronic disease.
• 58:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And 18% of our GDP in this country is chronic disease.
• 58:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Spending money on all these chronic illnesses.
• 58:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: When we look at these kind of figures, we're going to break the bank ultimately, especially with the dementia rates going up.
• 58:38
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, hold on, we need a new solution.
• 58:40
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And you know this.
• 58:41
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But I'll just tell the people out there, 50 to 60% of all Americans have at least one chronic illness.
• 58:48
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: 25% Of Americans have two or more chronic illnesses.
• 58:52
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So what are people doing?
• 58:54
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They're throwing drugs at them.
• 58:55
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against pharmaceuticals, right?
• 58:58
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Pharmaceuticals save lives.
• 59:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: There's no doubt.
• 59:00
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But there's a place for them.
• 59:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right?
• 59:02
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You don't just treat the end results of these illnesses.
• 59:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You have to get to the root causes.
• 59:07
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And that's basically the beauty of, you know, ending chronic illness.
• 59:10
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, well, hold on.
• 59:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: If all these Americans have these chronic diseases and we're spending all this money on chronic health care, this may be the solution we're looking for.
• 59:19
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So, you know, it's almost for me, like, if somebody had said to me when you started out in medicine 41 years ago, this was going to happen by planting these seeds in the ground.
• 59:28
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, oh, come on.
• 59:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You're.
• 59:31
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: That's.
• 59:32
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Yeah, that'll.
• 59:33
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: It's like, wow.
• 59:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Wow.
• 59:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 59:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Wow.
• 59:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I feel the same.
• 59:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's like, so I love it.
• 59:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And you said can't getbetter.com is where the people find the quiz.
• 59:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Where else?
• 59:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If they want to buy the book.
• 59:44
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And, and ending the, and the site for the book is endingchronic illness.com.
• 59:50
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: They can go out and they can get the book directly there on ending chronic illness.com, which again is the name of the book.
• 59:56
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So, yeah.
• 59:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: So that.
• 59:57
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And following with my medical detective substacks, again, free to sign up.
• 1:00:01
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You'll get a lot of information on everything, actually, were talking about today.
• 1:00:05
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And it's a way to follow me scientifically as things are coming out in science.
• 1:00:09
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I'm putting it out there for the public and the doctors just so.
• 1:00:11
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Right.
• 1:00:12
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Everyone can benefit.
• 1:00:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Well, we will link up if you're listening to both of those websites and to your sub stack and from the bottom of my heart and everybody listening.
• 1:00:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Thank you, Dr. Horowitz.
• 1:00:22
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Jill, I, you know, I love and my wife knows that can say this.
• 1:00:25
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: I love you dearly.
• 1:00:27
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You're such a wonderful person.
• 1:00:29
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: You are like a sister to me.
• 1:00:30
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: Thank you for doing all you've done for the functional medicine community and you and I are going to stay in touch with this.
• 1:00:35
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: But I can't thank you enough for having me on the podcast.
• 1:00:39
  Dr. Richard Horowitz: And by the way, for Resilience Radio, this is ultimately one of the ways that we're going to develop Resilience is getting to the root causes of why everyone's getting ill. Yeah.
• 1:00:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Hey guys, I was not kidding.
• 1:00:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I think this is one of the episodes of the year, maybe month, maybe decade.
• 1:00:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Richard Horowitz is a dear friend and just profoundly inspirational human and I hope this information you find useful.
• 1:01:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But more importantly, if you know someone who's dealing with dementia, early onset Alzheimer's or cognitive issues or even just Lyme disease or tick borne infections, will you please share this episode?
• 1:01:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Let's get the word out and really change the way we do medicine.
• 1:01:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So, so excited for this episode to release and Dr. Horowitz new book, End Chronic Illness will be available in a few months, so stay tuned for that.