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Are Your Students Thinking—or Just Complying? | Ashley Doty · The Academic Coaching Podcast

0:00
Ashley Doty: These are high-performing schools and very compliant children, and it was hard to see if they were doing the thinking.
0:08
Ashley Doty: It was literally so many times that we have to say,"Not enough evidence to determine."
0:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Oh, wow
0:15
Ashley Doty: They're taking notes, but are they thinking?
0:17
Ashley Doty: It's too hard to tell.
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Ashley Doty: I don't know.
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Ashley Doty: They're doing the thing, though, They're told to take notes, and so they take notes.
0:24
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
0:25
Ashley Doty: They're told to, you know,"Can anyone tell me the answer to..." and some raise their hands.
0:30
Ashley Doty: So they're doing the work, but it's really hard to determine who's doing the thinking.
0:34
Welcome back to the Academic Coaching Podcast, sponsored by the Anti-Boring Learning Lab.
0:39
I'm your host, Gretchen Wegner, and this is the place where educators get delightfully nerdy about how to help students become better learners.
0:47
We're talking the science of study skills and executive function strategies, and also the craft of coaching academic habits more skillfully so that all students, especially our neurodivergent learners, have the tools they need to not bore their own brains in school and in life.
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Today, my guest is the fabulous Ashlee Doty, founder of Uncomplicate Ed.
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We're gonna talk about why taking notes doesn't necessarily mean a student is thinking.
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We're gonna talk about why teachers and coaches might need to talk a little less.
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We're gonna talk about what it looks like to give students more control over the thinking, and even over when the teacher stops talking.
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There's a cool little trick that I suggest to Ashlee somewhere in there for her next professional development.
1:38
And of course, we're gonna find out Ashlee's go-to karaoke song.
1:43
Before we get into it, a quick invitation from our sponsor.
1:46
If you're a coach, tutor, or teacher looking for practical brain science-backed ways to teach students how to study more effectively, we have free guides for teaching two of our most popular anti-boring lessons: cognitive overload and the science of studying.
2:03
You can find them at antiboringlearninglab.com under Free Stuff, or just grab the link in the show notes.
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And now, without further ado
2:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): hi, Ashley.
2:14
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm so excited to see you today
2:17
Ashley Doty: Gretchen, I am so happy to be here.
2:20
Ashley Doty: Thank you for inviting me
2:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Now, would you say it's true that at ResearchEd, the conference where we met, we both had an immediate like, oh, you feel like a like sort of person with me?
2:33
Ashley Doty: Abs- it was pretty immediate.
2:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes.
2:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Okay, good.
2:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm glad it wasn't just me.
2:37
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm glad it wasn't just me.
2:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): The one key difference between the two of us is I am really not a karaoke person, and from what I saw at the after party, you are very much a karaoke person.
2:51
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Is that true?
2:52
Ashley Doty: I may or may not have a YouTube playlist of karaoke go-to songs.
2:56
Ashley Doty: That may or may not be a thing
2:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Okay.
2:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I am glad that that may or may not be a thing.
3:03
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uh, you are also a very, uh, energetic, dare I say, anti-boring in your own way educator.
3:12
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Um, and would you be willing to just tell the good people out there a little bit about your story through education to the fun place you are now?
3:21
Ashley Doty: I would so love to.
3:23
Ashley Doty: It's funny'cause I thought you were gonna say one of the key differences was we live on opposite coasts.
3:27
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well,
3:28
Ashley Doty: went the karaoke route,
3:30
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I did.
3:32
Ashley Doty: Um, yeah, so I, I originally...
3:36
Ashley Doty: I'm a career changer, okay?
3:37
Ashley Doty: So I originally studied theater and accounting, um, y- a true Gemini here.
3:44
Ashley Doty: Um, and I am born and raised in Tennessee.
3:47
Ashley Doty: After college, I actually moved to Minnesota and got a gig doing professional theater, but it was theater in classrooms, so we were called actor educators.
3:55
Ashley Doty: So
3:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): did you work for CLIMB Theater, Creative Learning Ideas for Mind and Body?
4:00
Ashley Doty: Yes, I did
4:01
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Me too.
4:01
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): That was my first job out of college
4:04
Ashley Doty: you have got to be kidding me
4:06
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm not kidding you.
4:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): In fact, that's whole, the whole reason why I'm in the work that I do now is'cause of the name Creative Learning Ideas for Mind and Body in Grove Heights, Minnesota, baby
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Ashley Doty: OMG, I have full body chills right now.
4:22
Ashley Doty: Gretchen, that's hysterical.
4:24
Ashley Doty: That's hysterical.
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Gretchen Wegner (she/her): know.
4:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm a little teary-eyed
4:27
Ashley Doty: Um, all right, well, we'll have to unpack that, uh, because...
4:31
Ashley Doty: So you know what I did.
4:33
Ashley Doty: So what, for those listening and watching, we did Theater For Social Justice and got to tour around the entire upper Midwest,
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Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Ja
4:40
Ashley Doty: and it was a really cool experience.
4:43
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): What years were you there?
4:44
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Okay, sorry listeners, you're just gonna have to deal with this.
4:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): We will get to note-taking, and we will get to what it's like being a principal and whatever else in a school.
4:53
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But first, we just gotta do this
4:56
Ashley Doty: That is crazy.
4:57
Ashley Doty: I was there from'04 to'09
5:03
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And I was there from'96, no,'97.
5:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): '97 to 2000
5:10
Ashley Doty: Wow.
5:12
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So you probably did scripts with my name on it
5:14
Ashley Doty: I probably did.
5:17
Ashley Doty: That is really crazy to think about That is absolutely hysterical.
5:22
Ashley Doty: Okay, um, I've n- I've only ever met one other person in the wild who was Climb.
5:28
Ashley Doty: Um, anyways, okay, okay.
5:30
Ashley Doty: W- we'll talk about that later.
5:31
Ashley Doty: So I did Climb, and it was a really cool experience.
5:35
Ashley Doty: Um, and I was also doing regional theater at the time, and my last show that I did was Romeo and Juliet.
5:42
Ashley Doty: I'd finally gotten Juliet, uh, so it was really exciting.
5:46
Ashley Doty: My whole family flew up from Tennessee to see me in it.
5:50
Ashley Doty: And at one of the last performances, I was like,"You know what?
5:52
Ashley Doty: I just don't know if this is my jam anymore.
5:54
Ashley Doty: I don't feel like I'm making the difference that I want to make." Uh, which is my main core value, is to make a difference.
6:00
Ashley Doty: So anyways, it was also Minnesota, and it was the fifth year that I'd lived there, so I was done with the winter,
6:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah, from Tennessee to Minnesota is no joke
6:10
Ashley Doty: it is no joke.
6:11
Ashley Doty: So I drew a line across the United States and applied for any job below the line, and Florida is what got me.
6:18
Ashley Doty: So Florida I went.
6:20
Ashley Doty: I joined Teach For America.
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Ashley Doty: That's what got me into education.
6:24
Ashley Doty: And in Flor- I've been in Florida ever since, so, uh, teacher, instructional coach, assistant principal, and principal, and then five years ago, I started Ed to uncomplicate education,'cause it's hard enough as it is.
6:40
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mhm.
6:42
Ashley Doty: with a little bit of a side quest down Climb.
6:45
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well, and can I say I'm jealous of your tagline because education is, is complicate- or is complicated enough.
6:51
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Is that what you just said?
6:52
Ashley Doty: Yeah, yeah, yeah
6:53
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): because so listeners can hear, so we were both actor educators at the same theater company.
6:58
Ashley Doty: It's
6:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): We're both theater people, I didn't mention that.
7:02
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But we also have named our businesses in this weird synergetic way, anti-boring, uncomplicated.
7:11
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So, um, anyway, I have not found the best tagline for anti-boring yet, except, except what I do tell students, which is I teach you how to not bore your own brain when you're learning.
7:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, you can't control whether your teachers are interesting, you can't control how your school is structured, but you can control whether or not you bore your own brain when you're studying and learning.
7:31
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So that's what I do say, but roll off the tongue the same way yours does.
7:35
Ashley Doty: It's good.
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Ashley Doty: We'll have to workshop it.
7:38
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes Started PD company, and then fast-forward to a couple weekends from when-- ago from when we're doing this recording, we met at, uh, ResearchEd, and I was intrigued with your presentation, and I attended it because it's very rare to have people at these brain science conferences referencing what's important for students to know about their own brains.
8:08
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): It's usually what should teachers know or how, how can instruction, uh, be geared towards using the science of learning, but never, like, teaching the science of learning while you're using it.
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Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And so I just so appreciated that you and your co-presenter, Jen, I'm remembering her name correctly, yes,
8:26
Ashley Doty: it.
8:26
Ashley Doty: Yeah
8:28
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): had that orientation.
8:29
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So would you share a little bit more about what kinds of PD you do?
8:34
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And was that-- is that talking to students, is that part of your work, or is it a new part of your work?
8:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Or anyway, tell us a little bit about now.
8:42
Ashley Doty: Uh, so we do professional learning for teachers, instructional coaches, school leaders, district leaders.
8:49
Ashley Doty: Um, we have not done professional learning directly to students.
8:53
Ashley Doty: We've been doing it for those that serve students.
8:56
Ashley Doty: Um, and we, we do-- I mean, mostly we've been in Florida.
9:00
Ashley Doty: Um, and we do topics, uh, started with just the standards'cause the standards had changed here in Florida.
9:06
Ashley Doty: But, uh, we started moving into student engagement, uh, classroom management, although based in science of learning, all based in brain science.
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Ashley Doty: I got to go to my first ResearchEd conference in New York in May, and I was like,"I need more of these in my life." So immediately signed up for St.
9:24
Ashley Doty: Louis, and I thought,"You know what?
9:26
Ashley Doty: I'll-- What about translating this information that is still emerging in the United
9:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
9:34
Ashley Doty: students, to, to the actual full end user?" Um, so that was sort of the idea around how do we make something that teachers can use to teach students about how their brain works.
9:47
Ashley Doty: Uh, so we chose the sweet spot of, of students ages 8 to 12, so kind of, kind of in that group.
9:53
Ashley Doty: And, uh, that, you know, that, as you saw, was what our session was on, though we had not done that session before.
10:00
Ashley Doty: Um, so yeah, like I said, mostly what we do is cognitive science and engage.
10:04
Ashley Doty: We kind of do whatever the school needs us to do as
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Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uhum.
10:07
Ashley Doty: um, as long as we have the experience to do it,
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Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
10:10
Ashley Doty: it's been a, it's been a fun road so far.
10:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well, and speaking of whatever the school wants you to do if you have the experience to do it, can you let us know about the contract that you just did that made me excited to have you immediately on the podcast?
10:26
Ashley Doty: Yes.
10:27
Ashley Doty: Yes, I will.
10:27
Ashley Doty: And you know what?
10:28
Ashley Doty: I, I forgot to mention too, um, just going backwards a moment for professional learning, one of the other things that emerged out of working with schools, and actually it was, it was what I felt being a principal sitting in a school, was m- I love to, uh, be an instructional leader of my building.
10:45
Ashley Doty: Uh, I love to grow the capacity of the leaders, uh, that I also served, I just, I didn't have time to make slides and make the handouts and all that
10:53
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
10:54
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes
10:55
Ashley Doty: somebody would create Create the slides and stuff for me, and I can just execute on
11:01
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
11:02
Ashley Doty: actually, PD in a Box came out of that.
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Ashley Doty: So that was another thing that we did, and student engagement and classroom management, and all that sort of stuff, which has been great.
11:10
Ashley Doty: It's literally like someone opens a box, and they can deliver PD, which has been great.
11:15
Ashley Doty: Uh, uh, the recent adventure has been with a group of schools here where I live in Jacksonville, Florida.
11:23
Ashley Doty: And we were wanting to increase engagement, student engagement, which, you know, loaded word.
11:31
Ashley Doty: What does that actually
11:32
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
11:33
Ashley Doty: Another one of those words in danger of being overused
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Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah,
11:37
Ashley Doty: schools.
11:37
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): it's true.
11:38
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Motivation, engagement.
11:40
Ashley Doty: self-care,
11:41
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
11:42
Ashley Doty: all
11:42
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes.
11:42
Ashley Doty: ones.
11:43
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes.
11:44
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes
11:46
Ashley Doty: so we wanted to not only look at the conditions that the teacher set for learning, but then how are the students responding to those conditions?
11:53
Ashley Doty: Um, so we broke down engagement into...
11:57
Ashley Doty: And, and this is widely out there, but helped the leaders and then the teachers see there's, um, emotional engagement, how curious am I?
12:06
Ashley Doty: Which feels, it, it kind of leans to motivation.
12:09
Ashley Doty: Behavioral engagement, am I doing the thing?
12:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Угу
12:13
Ashley Doty: then cognitive engagement, which is the thinking.
12:16
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uhum.
12:16
Ashley Doty: So when we were going into classrooms a- at these schools as leadership teams, we were looking at who's doing the thinking, and how do we know?
12:29
Ashley Doty: And we, I mean, we were in classrooms from kindergarten to 12th grade, literally.
12:34
Ashley Doty: There's six different campuses.
12:35
Ashley Doty: We were all over.
12:36
Ashley Doty: And it was so interesting.
12:38
Ashley Doty: These are high-performing schools and very compliant children, and it was hard to see if they were doing the thinking.
12:47
Ashley Doty: It, it was literally so many times that we have to say,"Not enough evidence to determine."
12:52
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Oh, wow
12:54
Ashley Doty: yeah, so they're taking notes, let's say, which
12:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah
12:57
Ashley Doty: or, you know, they're taking notes, but are they thinking?
12:59
Ashley Doty: I, it's too hard to tell.
13:01
Ashley Doty: I don't know They're doing the thing, though, They're told to take notes, and so they take notes.
13:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
13:08
Ashley Doty: they're told to, you know,"Can anyone tell me the answer to..." and some raise their hands.
13:12
Ashley Doty: So they're doing the work, but it's really hard to determine who's doing the thinking.
13:16
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Угу
13:18
Ashley Doty: And one of the classrooms we went into, this was high school chemistry, and one of those teachers that we all wish we had, who, like, loves their subject matter, like making, making...
13:30
Ashley Doty: If you didn't love chemistry before coming to his class, you would walk out of there loving ch-
13:34
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
13:34
Ashley Doty: just exciting.
13:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And that's kind of what I was saying with the anti-boring piece.
13:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, we can't always get a teacher who's anti-boring.
13:42
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): This particular teacher was, but we can at least know how not to bore ourselves.
13:45
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But thank goodness for the teachers where you're just engaged in their classrooms regardless
13:50
Ashley Doty: That's right.
13:50
Ashley Doty: That's right.
13:51
Ashley Doty: he was teaching new material, and so he had slides for new material, and the students were asked to take notes while he was teaching.
14:00
Ashley Doty: And he does what we are all notorious for doing, which while they are writing, he continues to talk
14:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes
14:09
Ashley Doty: And he had such great things to say.
14:11
Ashley Doty: He was, you know, like great science teachers break down this super complex topic into something analogous to like, that you can actually reach and grab.
14:19
Ashley Doty: And he was doing these great things, but the students had to make a choice.
14:23
Ashley Doty: Am I going to take notes and copy what's on the board, or am I going to listen?
14:28
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
14:28
Ashley Doty: because they're compliant and he, they were told to take notes, they took notes.
14:34
Ashley Doty: So, and they were literally copying verbatim from the screen.
14:37
Ashley Doty: In fact, he had done a really cool thing to try to accommodate students who struggle with the transfer of screen to,
14:44
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah
14:45
Ashley Doty: He had printed out a few of these notes already, and students every day are allowed to kind of check out that binder and copy it down on their own.
14:53
Ashley Doty: But it was still copying
14:55
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
14:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Which is easier to do if the t- if the teacher is gonna be talking and you're wanting to listen.
15:02
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I think, yes, multitasking is not something our brains can do, but if we're using different, completely different parts of our brains, we can.
15:09
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And so there's a way that we can go on autopilot, I think.
15:12
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I mean, I haven't seen the science of this, but
15:14
Ashley Doty: Mm.
15:15
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So I imagine that's kind of what they're doing.
15:17
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): They're like,"Okay, let me just copy what's on the board while part of my brain is struggling to listen to him still." But then we know that then what you're writing, you're not engaged with, and so what's the point of it?
15:30
Ashley Doty: Right.
15:30
Ashley Doty: Right, right, right.
15:31
Ashley Doty: And so as we were lit-- we were literally there as leaders trying to see are the students thinking, and what evidence do we have to determine it?
15:41
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uhum.
15:41
Ashley Doty: again, everyone was behaviorally engaged in that they were participating, but it was literally impossible to tell.
15:47
Ashley Doty: It didn't-- was no way to know if everyone was thinking or not.
15:51
Ashley Doty: and we were in there for a full 15 to 20 minutes.
15:53
Ashley Doty: And teacher talking, very engaging in himself.
15:58
Ashley Doty: Which maybe we need a better word for that.
16:00
Ashley Doty: Very entertaining,
16:03
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Entertaining, yeah
16:04
Ashley Doty: but the students weren't able to pay attention to that because they were taking the notes.
16:09
Ashley Doty: And again, it was hard to know who was doing the thinking, except for it was very clear the teacher was doing thinking.
16:14
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Ja.
16:14
Ashley Doty: what were the students doing?
16:15
Ashley Doty: So as we exited that classroom, the principals and leaders were like, you know, they're, they, they're, uh, s- leaders of a six-twelve, and they're like,"We see this all the time, and it's note-taking."
16:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): a 6-12, meaning sixth grade to 12th grade, just naming it for our international listeners.
16:30
Ashley Doty: Thank you so much.
16:31
Ashley Doty: Yes, not six to 12-year-olds, sixth
16:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
16:34
Ashley Doty: through 12th
16:34
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah
16:35
Ashley Doty: you.
16:35
Ashley Doty: Um, so...
16:37
Ashley Doty: And like, you know, we see this all the time, is note-taking bad?
16:40
Ashley Doty: Well, of course it- it's not bad.
16:41
Ashley Doty: You know, it's not, it's not bad, it's not wrong, and there is a way a teacher can shift his instruction to shift more of the thinking to the students, uh, and, and less of it to be just behaviorally compliantly taking notes.
17:00
Ashley Doty: So we were talking in the hall.
17:01
Ashley Doty: It was like, like, uh, right afterwards.
17:03
Ashley Doty: We were talking in the hall, and like, we just need to teach a protocol.
17:06
Ashley Doty: Um, talk a little, then stop, talk.
17:09
Ashley Doty: Talk, they don't write, just for a little bit, they write, perhaps try to summarize in their own words what he just said, then show the slide, and now reconcile your notes against my notes.
17:29
Ashley Doty: So in this case, I'd- I defined verbally and with an analogy sublimation.
17:35
Ashley Doty: Whatever.
17:35
Ashley Doty: That's what the lesson was.
17:37
Ashley Doty: so the students would then have to s- summarize it in their own words or draw a picture of what they felt like it is.
17:43
Ashley Doty: They could really lean into the great analogies he was doing, write that in their notes.
17:46
Ashley Doty: Now animate, slides come in, check my notes.
17:51
Ashley Doty: Did I define sublimation in a similar way to what he did?
17:54
Ashley Doty: Yes?
17:55
Ashley Doty: Check mark.
17:55
Ashley Doty: Let's r- let's move on.
17:57
Ashley Doty: No?
17:58
Ashley Doty: No harm, no foul.
17:59
Ashley Doty: Make the edits right now.
18:00
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm
18:01
Ashley Doty: Or even,"I'm gonna talk a little bit.
18:03
Ashley Doty: Turn to your partner.
18:05
Ashley Doty: Summarize, synthesize what we just said, then write it in your notes." And of course, the argument's alway gonna, always gonna be,"Well, that takes longer." Yes, it does.
18:14
Ashley Doty: But you're gonna have to spend that time reteaching it anyway, so invest it on the front end or the back end.
18:19
Ashley Doty: There you go
18:19
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
18:19
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And if your students aren't thinking during class, and if you're the only one doing the thinking as the teacher in the front of the room, then what's the point anyway?
18:28
Ashley Doty: That's right, and I, I kind of argued too, if, if all they're doing is copying verbatim the notes, then just give them the notes.
18:34
Ashley Doty: Who cares?
18:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
18:36
Ashley Doty: them a study method then, if
18:38
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm
18:39
Ashley Doty: Because just cop- we, like we all know, and there's plenty of evidence to support, writing, getting into your brain, and that, and that's great for retention, but not copying.
18:50
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
18:50
Ashley Doty: there's still a synthesis that needs to
18:52
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
18:53
Ashley Doty: versus just me what's on the slide.
18:56
Ashley Doty: So if, if that wasn't the case, then just give them the slides.
19:01
Ashley Doty: Just, just, you already kinda had that printed out.
19:03
Ashley Doty: Just give them the slides and teach them a study method, but if you genuinely want them to take notes, you have to have stop and jot moments for
19:09
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
19:10
Ashley Doty: do some of the thinking
19:11
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
19:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah, and it, it might even be, you know, as from somebody outside the classroom who's very interested in improving students' independent learning skills, I would say all of the above.
19:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I love the protocol that you wrote down or that you suggested,
19:28
Ashley Doty: Mhm
19:28
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): as one of a number of different
19:32
Ashley Doty: Yes
19:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): do to get students sh- showing their engagement.
19:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I also love that about your story.
19:38
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): It's not just are you secretly engaged inside and secretly doing the thinking inside, but what is our proof?
19:44
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): What is the behavior that actually lets us know that engagement is happening?
19:50
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And that process of ev- even when they write, you don't know exactly if they're learning, but you know they're doing a little thinking in that moment.
19:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And then I, I love the opportunity to check their understanding because that's actually a study skill, too.
20:06
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): When you're studying by yourself at home, maybe you decide to do a brain dump on a whiteboard of everything your science teacher shared that day.
20:12
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): You still then need to give yourself feedback about was it accurate or was it not accurate.
20:18
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And, uh, so you practicing that skill in class is a wonderful thing to do.
20:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Time that it's,"But today we're gonna try something different."
20:31
Ashley Doty: Right, exactly.
20:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And maybe follow along with the lecture or maybe just read the notes.
20:37
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Be cool.
20:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): See, we're experimenting as we go what's best f- for you in terms of your own engagement.
20:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): We can't know what's best for them in terms of their own, their actual learning unless we also provide the checks like formal quizzes and that sort of thing.
20:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But, um, yes, variety.
21:00
Ashley Doty: Yes, I agree.
21:01
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
21:02
Ashley Doty: anything can get old.
21:02
Ashley Doty: Anything can get
21:03
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
21:04
Ashley Doty: Um, but I think the overarching, it teaches even every 10 to 15 minutes can say,"Okay, who's doing the thinking right now, and how do I know?" if that's a constant refrain, and teaching that, saying that to the students, why not?
21:20
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
21:20
Ashley Doty: doing the thinking right now, and how
21:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And how do we...
21:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
21:23
Ashley Doty: Mm-hmm.
21:24
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
21:24
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And I think this advice mirrors perfectly for academic and executive function coaches in their sessions.
21:32
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): One of the things we work a lot on inside the Anti-Boring Learning Lab is we practice, we rehearse these 10-minute mini lectures I gave you.
21:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): When we chatted yesterday, I gave you the example of the study cycle, and we're focusing on what's the least you need to say to get the student into effective action since teachers typically, I forget the numbers in the literature, but it's, they say vastly more than they need to usually to get most students going.
21:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Do you know, do you have information about this, or you're just agreeing with me with that gesture?
22:03
Ashley Doty: just hardcore agreeing with you.
22:06
Ashley Doty: In fact, it's, it's so funny.
22:07
Ashley Doty: So just this morning, I was doing a debrief with all of the school leaders at all six of the schools, because we're done with all the visits.
22:13
Ashley Doty: And o- of the, like, next steps, one of them, and common trends, one of them was just teachers need to stop talking so much.
22:20
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): mhm。
22:20
Ashley Doty: kkhh.
22:21
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): gap。
22:22
Ashley Doty: is there a cue or something at the back of the room that's like,"You said it.
22:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uhum, uhum
22:27
Ashley Doty: for a minute.
22:28
Ashley Doty: Let it percolate." Just kkhh.
22:30
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
22:30
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well, what comes up for me as you say that is their cue is if we allowed-- If we had protocols to allow students to advocate for their own learning needs in the moment, then there could be a classroom protocol where-- Like, I know, I know I over-talk.
22:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): For sure, I over-talk, which is one reason I focus on the least you need to know.
22:51
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And in fact, in fact, I tell this story in my lab, but now it's extra special to tell it to you.
22:58
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): The very first class that I taught when I worked at Climb Theatre, I had to lead the activity House Neighbor Tree with a group of students.
23:11
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Now, we won't get into what House Neighbor Tree is.
23:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): You laughed.
23:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I assume that you all were still playing this once you were there.
23:18
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And the feedback that I got afterwards was that I gave three times the number of instructions I needed to get the kids to just make a house with their arms.
23:32
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Make a tree, make a neighbor, hold hand, you know.
23:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And it stuck.
23:37
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I was so embarrassed at the time, uh, but it really stuck with me, and so it is a skill that I've been practicing ever since.
23:45
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And then in the Anti-Boring Learning Lab, during our mini-lecture practices where we rehearse those little ten-minute things, we look at what are you saying that you don't need to say.
23:54
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And some of the educators feel a little grumpy about needing to get feedback about this sort of thing.
24:00
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like,"I do great when I'm with my student.
24:02
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): It's fine." It's like, it probably is fine, but why not?
24:05
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, this is a key thing that we know in the research is adults, or we could even say anyone in power over, whether it's a man with a woman, whether it's, you know, a white person with a person of color, et cetera, et cetera, has a tendency to take up more of the verbal space.
24:23
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And in relationships that are age-related power dynamics, teacher and student, the older person al- and the more knowledgeable person also takes up more of the space.
24:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And so we all could benefit from noticing what our power dynamics are in our everyday lives or in our teaching lives, and then adjusting accordingly to give the person with less power a little bit more space.
24:50
Ashley Doty: Yeah, and I think, I think part of that also comes with not being afraid of the white space, of the silence.
24:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Ja.
24:58
Ashley Doty: Because I think there's something within us that's like,"Oh, I've gotta fill every moment.
25:03
Ashley Doty: If I don't..." And then now all these fears come in.
25:06
Ashley Doty: Will they think I'm incompetent?
25:07
Ashley Doty: Will they think I'm incred- not, not credible?
25:09
Ashley Doty: Will they think...
25:09
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
25:10
Ashley Doty: being okay to let silence sometimes fill the space,
25:13
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
25:13
Ashley Doty: because different people need different times to process.
25:18
Ashley Doty: And one of my favorite things to say too is,"Don't turn our classrooms into Jeopardy!"
25:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm
25:23
Ashley Doty: responds the fastest.
25:25
Ashley Doty: This
25:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
25:26
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
25:27
Ashley Doty: So let the silence take up space so that it will invite
25:31
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
25:32
Ashley Doty: people to make
25:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
25:34
Ashley Doty: to
25:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
25:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
25:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And sometimes to advocate for themselves,"Hey, can I have another minute to write this down?" I mean, not that-- The teacher does have to make sure it's not too many minutes, you know, so that the fast students don't get bored.
25:48
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But, but when students understand their own learning,
25:53
Ashley Doty: Mm-hmm.
25:54
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): they know what to advocate for.
25:55
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, wouldn't it be amazing if a student sensed a teacher making a transition into a new topic, and put their hand up and said,"Hey, I notice I need a little retrieval practice before we move on.
26:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, that was cool what I just l- what we just heard, but could we just do a little brain dump, or could we just do a little something?
26:14
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Could we go to our retrieval practice?" Maybe a classroom would even have, uh, stations that are retrieval practice stations.
26:20
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): "Could I just do that for a little bit?"
26:24
Ashley Doty: Could it even be like, I mean, you said a transition.
26:27
Ashley Doty: Could they even do like the timeout signal?
26:29
Ashley Doty: 'Cause it could
26:29
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
26:30
Ashley Doty: Like T for transition,
26:31
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uh-huh.
26:32
Ashley Doty: T for timeout.
26:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Time out, yeah
26:34
Ashley Doty: a little bit...
26:35
Ashley Doty: I need to just process this for a moment
26:37
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah
26:38
Ashley Doty: cover my notes, or, uh, just sit with it,
26:41
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah
26:42
Ashley Doty: a partner, or something.
26:44
Ashley Doty: Oh, I love that idea
26:46
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well, you're making me think about, I have this master class that I'm teaching in, uh, at the end of October, and hopefully this is going to come out before then, um, about note-taking.
26:57
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): It's called Beyond Cornell Notes is the first one, and the second one is called Beyond the Highlighter, and the first one is about taking notes in class, and the second one is about taking notes from reading, and, you know, the tendency to just highlight all the time.
27:09
Ashley Doty: Oh yeah.
27:10
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): but as I'm teaching, I feel so pressured.
27:14
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I have It's like a three-hour mass.
27:16
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Each of them are three hours.
27:17
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I wanna get so much information into that time.
27:20
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I also know adults think, they think they like to get a lot of information.
27:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, you know,"Just go, just go.
27:27
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Keep going.
27:28
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): It's fine.
27:29
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I wanna get it all, and then I wanna move on with my life." But I think as a result of this conversation, I really wanna challenge myself, especially because it's a note-taking, it's about note-taking.
27:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I wanna challenge myself to give s- a few catch up with your note-taking breaks every 15 minutes or so, which by the way, in the research that I was doing to prepare for this, it really is one of the best practices, is have, uh, catch-up time
27:57
Ashley Doty: Yeah.
27:59
Ashley Doty: Yeah, I mean, that makes great sense, and I'm excited about the highlight one that you mentioned because, um, I mean, thinking back to my own study habits, but even when I go into classrooms and students are asked to highlight the most important thing, and they highlight, the whole thing's just covered in pink highlight.
28:15
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
28:15
Ashley Doty: if it's all important, then none of
28:17
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
28:18
Ashley Doty: Um, so I love that you kind of mentioned a twofold, two-tiered approach, and I love what you said, too, about even as adults, we think just want all the information
28:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
28:34
Ashley Doty: peace out.
28:35
Ashley Doty: We also think we don't need to get up and move.
28:38
Ashley Doty: Uh,
28:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): but we do.
28:40
Ashley Doty: I say in trainings all the time, like, like,"We're gonna be moving a lot, and we're gonna be engaging." And I was like,"Let the groans out.
28:45
Ashley Doty: Just let
28:46
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
28:46
Ashley Doty: feeling it.
28:47
Ashley Doty: None of
28:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
28:48
Ashley Doty: to do that.
28:49
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah
28:50
Ashley Doty: I'm not here to give you what you want.
28:53
Ashley Doty: I'm here to give you what you need.
28:55
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uhum.
28:55
Ashley Doty: my favorite things to say, too, in any training is it's not about what's taught, it's about what's learned.
29:00
Ashley Doty: I could cover the material, sure.
29:02
Ashley Doty: What, but what are you gonna get out of it?
29:05
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
29:07
Ashley Doty: can't take that much,
29:08
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
29:09
Ashley Doty: 12 or 72.
29:12
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
29:12
Ashley Doty: can only take it in chunks, and so even, as you mentioned, working with adult learners, what we think we want is not always what our brain needs.
29:20
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm
29:21
Ashley Doty: So I love that you're gonna build that in for the adult learners in your workshop.
29:25
Ashley Doty: That's perfect.
29:26
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm, so one of the things that's inspiring me about this conversation is everything that you're saying about training adults is also something one could say in a coaching session to a student.
29:38
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like,"I know you probably, you may not wanna move, but we've been at this, we've been sitting at this computer for 15 minutes.
29:44
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): At least take a moment, at least to, like, look up and find a distance.
29:49
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): What's the fur- Let me ask you right now, Ashley, what's the furthest away you can see right now from your position?
29:55
Ashley Doty: Yep, I can see some trees at the very end of my neighborhood.
29:59
Ashley Doty: Mm-hmm.
29:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah, see, that's pretty cool.
30:01
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): That's like a long ways away.
30:02
Ashley Doty: Yeah,
30:03
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And it's so good for the eyes, and I unfortunately don't see trees, but I, I can see down the hallway, and I can see my curtain for my shower
30:12
Ashley Doty: Yeah, I said, you know, um, everyone in my organization, we work remote, and we will often take go look at the horizon breaks.
30:20
Ashley Doty: Like,'cause we've been looking at our screens or looking at things immediately in front of us, we all just need to take a break and look at the horizon.
30:26
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Totally
30:27
Ashley Doty: just some- you know, something about just the eyesight, the vision, the break for our brain
30:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): उहं।
30:33
Ashley Doty: and we might be really in it, but our brains need those breaks
30:38
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
30:39
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And I do try and offer an opportunity for, in my adult trainings, for people to stand up and wiggle.
30:45
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uh, only ever half of the people who have their cameras on do.
30:49
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But I like to think that it's good for them.
30:51
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah, that it's good for them to see me doing it, and to see the other people doing it.
30:54
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And I really would love for us to invite our students to do that more, because also they can't sit for an hour and a half and study, so they need to move.
31:04
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But what are some ways to move that don't require going to look at your phone?
31:09
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): 'Cause that's like walk to get the phone, and then you're still again.
31:12
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And students need to practice that.
31:14
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
31:17
Ashley Doty: Yeah, I totally agree.
31:18
Ashley Doty: Like, it can't involve looking at one, trading one screen for another.
31:22
Ashley Doty: Um,
31:23
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
31:23
Ashley Doty: something different.
31:24
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
31:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Though I will say one of the tips that I give students or give educators to give students is leave your phone right outside of the room that you're in and on the floor.
31:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So that way you study for a little bit, and then when it's time for a break, maybe you have a Pomodoro timer, or maybe you just feel in your body, I g- I'm not concentrating right now, and I...
31:44
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): or I wanna go check in on the group text or whatever.
31:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Go do it.
31:48
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I mean, it's, it's kind of impossible to tell students not to do it, and the reason I know this is it's impossible for me to tell myself not to do it.
31:54
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And so I try to have a practice of not expecting students do what I'm not willing to do myself.
32:03
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But then if it's on the floor, you have to actually squat down.
32:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): You have to reach down or squat.
32:09
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, I'm somebody who, who is, is good at, like, actually sitting in a squat for a little bit, and that way your body's in a whole new position.
32:17
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): It's not folded over the way it has to be on a chair.
32:20
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So that way you're on...
32:21
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And then you leave it there.
32:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Ta- you know, text for two minutes, and then leave it there, and then go back to work again
32:26
Ashley Doty: Smart.
32:26
Ashley Doty: Ooh, I like that.
32:28
Ashley Doty: might try that myself
32:30
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Let me know how it goes if you do.
32:34
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
32:34
Ashley Doty: day.
32:34
Ashley Doty: That's not gonna hurt
32:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So I do wanna ask you another question, but have we shared everything there is to share about the note-taking conversation and protocol?
32:43
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Like, have those protocols been put into, b- been taught to the teachers yet?
32:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Have they tried them, or was it just your work group that was coming up with them?
32:52
Ashley Doty: Somewhat.
32:52
Ashley Doty: Um, they, the, the school leaders were differentiating their coaching support, which I appreciate.
32:58
Ashley Doty: Um, so not every teacher, uh, does note-taking.
33:01
Ashley Doty: You know, in the music class, in the art class, it's not gonna look the same.
33:04
Ashley Doty: So they were differentiating some support from what they see some teachers doing.
33:10
Ashley Doty: And I mean, we're talking this is fresh, hot off the presses the last two weeks.
33:14
Ashley Doty: So,
33:15
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
33:15
Ashley Doty: I don't think anyone's fully leaned into trying it yet with these schools.
33:20
Ashley Doty: Um, I have worked with other schools that have tried it, and it, it, it was, difficult at first because it's not the way we were taught, and it's not the way we had been teaching.
33:32
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
33:33
Ashley Doty: So it's breaking a cycle of I do five slides, I stop.
33:38
Ashley Doty: I do five slides, I stop.
33:39
Ashley Doty: We try, you know, we tried to make it give some parameters.
33:42
Ashley Doty: Either set a timer, every 10 minutes stop, or
33:46
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): उहम्।
33:46
Ashley Doty: slides stop,
33:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): उहम्।
33:48
Ashley Doty: so that you won't forget because you're cau- You're, you have a habit, right?
33:51
Ashley Doty: We're, we've been doing it like this for so long that it's hard to break a habit without something
33:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
33:57
Ashley Doty: us.
33:58
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Could there be a dist- I'm sorry, can I go into brainstorming mode right now with you?
34:02
Ashley Doty: yes.
34:03
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Could they insert a slide, could you have a district-wide slide that is break now, and they d- so there's literally slides that they put in like,"Oh, it's a break time."
34:14
Ashley Doty: I would love that.
34:15
Ashley Doty: I think
34:16
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
34:17
Ashley Doty: and I always need cues like that as an educator to be like,"Oh, yeah, I gotta do that thing."
34:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mhm.
34:23
Ashley Doty: I hadn't put it in a slide, I would've just kept rolling.
34:26
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right
34:27
Ashley Doty: yeah, I think that's a really good idea
34:28
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
34:29
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): My other thought that I have loved to do in my one-on-one sessions with clients that I imagine could be done in classrooms as well, is actually have a timer and give it to a student or my client, and then say,"We're gonna take a break at whatever time this goes off.
34:46
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): You get to set it.
34:48
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Don't tell me when it is." Uh, I like the power differ- It's like wherever I am, I have to stop if I'm talking, and where- whenever you are, I mean, you can finish your thought.
34:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Maybe both of us can just finish our thought, but then we need to get up and stretch or take...
35:05
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Or, you know, whatever.
35:05
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Whatever.
35:06
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Or just even check in.
35:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Sometimes it's a metacognitive break.
35:08
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): How are you doing right now?
35:09
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Is this too much?
35:10
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Is this, uh...
35:11
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But I, I need the randomness, and I think the students really love that they can control when the teacher gets interrupted
35:18
Ashley Doty: That is a really cool idea, and I
35:21
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
35:21
Ashley Doty: even be like a reward for students who, you know, uh, did their homework or whatever it might be.
35:28
Ashley Doty: You get to be the one that sets the timer today.
35:30
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
35:31
Ashley Doty: oh, that's a cool idea.
35:32
Ashley Doty: I love
35:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yep.
35:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): See?
35:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): We, we should just get together for rambles every once in a while
35:40
Ashley Doty: I think that's swell.
35:41
Ashley Doty: We need a system for it.
35:43
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yes.
35:45
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So the other thing I thought would just be fun to have people know about is you shared me that there was a big change in the standards in the state of Florida that included a surprising thing that is a good thing.
35:59
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But anyway, would you share what it is with folks?
36:02
Ashley Doty: would love to.
36:03
Ashley Doty: So we, and I'm sure this is every state, but in Florida we have something called the Florida Educator Accomplished Practices, or the acronym FEAPS,'cause there's not enough acronyms, uh, in, in our line of work.
36:15
Ashley Doty: Uh, but it, it's basically how teachers are evaluated against these various teacher standards.
36:21
Ashley Doty: Well, they updated them this year, uh, August 2026, to include two of those FEAPS, including what the state of Florida is calling cognitive science of learning.
36:31
Ashley Doty: So actually supporting teachers with, and then observing them for, cognitive science principles in their classroom, primarily retrieval, which great, that's a very high yield strategy.
36:46
Ashley Doty: Um, so I'm very excited
36:49
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm.
36:51
Ashley Doty: It's like it's in writing, so it's official.
36:53
Ashley Doty: It got board approval that cognitive science is gonna take more of a, a spotlight it has in the past, which is just exciting for, the students of Florida and the teachers of Florida, and for me nerdily, because, uh, I think we've been trying to spread that a lot here.
37:13
Ashley Doty: I think I was sharing with you the other day that oftentimes as educator- as humans, can sometimes get so lost in the details that we lose the forest for the trees.
37:22
Ashley Doty: And
37:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah
37:23
Ashley Doty: sure, how can they learn this one skill that's tied to a standard?
37:27
Ashley Doty: Yes, and but how do just people learn anything?
37:30
Ashley Doty: Like, don't forget how just people learn anything, and then now apply that to science.
37:35
Ashley Doty: Now apply that to music, whatever.
37:38
Ashley Doty: Now apply that to something.
37:40
Ashley Doty: So instead of getting so lost on this really specific skill or benchmark or standard, forget to take a moment and zoom out
37:47
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
37:48
Ashley Doty: about how we learn.
37:49
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
37:49
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Right.
37:50
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And what we know about how we learn and how we can apply that to truly almost anything in our lives to hack to hack whether I remember the list or, or whatever it is that we're trying to hold onto.
38:05
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
38:06
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uh, that's truly exciting, and as somebody who has coached a few students out of the state-- who are in the state of Florida, um, I'm, I'm excited to hear that that's in the standards.
38:18
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And you sharing that is also reminding me an interesting thing that I heard some folks, some of the folks from the UK talking about at ResearchEd.
38:27
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And just so for people to know, ResearchEd, it brings educators together with science of learning scientists, and it started in the UK.
38:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And one of the things, I, I've heard differing opinions from different people who are from the UK even about the quality of the schools and the education there.
38:45
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But one of the things that is true is that what you're talking about right now, Ashley, in terms of the science of learning becoming more a part of the Florida standards, that has been the case in the entire country, uh, um, for a while, or I should say countries of the United Kingdom.
39:04
Ashley Doty: Right
39:05
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And, and one of the things that they're saying is the impediment to getting the science out in the United States is the fact that we have state standards and not national standards, and that is something in the UK that has helped things like retrieval practice get in the hands of teachers in a way that it just isn't in the United States yet.
39:26
Ashley Doty: I would 100% agree with that.
39:29
Ashley Doty: I mean, the, I see that from the seat that I'm sitting in here for sure.
39:33
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mhm.
39:35
Ashley Doty: uh, without going too far down, uh, another fun road, um, I, I would agree that that has been an impediment to the progress here in the States, but I'm hopeful and I'm encouraged see them enter the educator practices as standards in Florida, and having more research ed opportunities in the States.
39:59
Ashley Doty: And hear the buzz starting to kind of come around it.
40:02
Ashley Doty: Um, you know, I ended up-- I s- I started a, a Facebook group called Uncomplicating the Science of Learning for K-12 because I wanted all of the great energy and conversations around great things like research ed to continue going and not just live in a one weekend event.
40:23
Ashley Doty: Um, h- how does this really translate and look into real classrooms with real teachers and real students?
40:29
Ashley Doty: So I, I'm hopeful and I'm encouraged.
40:32
Ashley Doty: It's grown by like literally 200 people in the last two days, which
40:35
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Amazing.
40:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm one of those 200.
40:38
Ashley Doty: welcome to the fold.
40:40
Ashley Doty: Um, so I'm excited and I, I really do feel encouraged by, um, by the growth thus far and where it could continue
40:49
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
40:50
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
40:51
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well, I strongly encourage folks to look that up inside Facebook.
40:55
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Just type in Uncomplicating the Science of Learning, and it will come up.
40:58
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I know because I did that yesterday.
41:00
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And, um, Ashley, I want you to think about what your favorite karaoke song is to share with the people.
41:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And while you're thinking about that, I just wanna name to folks that in the show notes or on my website, antiboringlearninglab.com, I will have information about the two upcoming master classes.
41:18
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And it is very rare that I teach outside the Anti-Boring Learning Lab.
41:22
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Most of the time I'm teaching inside the lab.
41:25
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): But I do these master classes that have me go into the science to investigate what is the latest that the research is saying about note-taking, note-taking and ADHD, for example, or, uh, note-taking and illustrations and drawing and doodling, et cetera.
41:44
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So I will be sharing all of that, as well as my framework for, uh, my two-part framework for how to teach students to take notes.
41:51
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'll be sharing that in Beyond Cornell and in, uh, Beyond the Highlighter.
41:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'll be doing something I've never done before, which is actually walking people through the practice, how to skim a nonfiction article or book and how to turn it into a chart so that you get the entire contents of the book on one page in a chart, and we're gonna do it alongside each other in that one.
42:14
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So along with some science as well.
42:16
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): So
42:17
Ashley Doty: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited! I will.
42:22
Ashley Doty: That sounds really exciting
42:26
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Oh yeah.
42:27
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): For those, do sign up sooner rather than later.
42:29
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Beyond Highlighter is early November and Beyond Cornell is end of October.
42:34
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I don't know the, the dates off the top of my head.
42:36
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): That was my little commercial.
42:38
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And Ashley, what is your favorite karaoke song, do you think?
42:42
Ashley Doty: Sure, 100% hands down, don't even need think time, it's Black Velvet.
42:48
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uh, which is what you're saying, wasn't
42:50
Ashley Doty: what
42:50
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): it?
42:51
Ashley Doty: It's, it's, you know, w- my husband and I joke that that was what clinched it for him, was singing Black Velvet
42:58
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): ああ。ああ、 many many。
43:03
Ashley Doty: just my go-to song.
43:04
Ashley Doty: It's got my hometown name in it, of Memphis.
43:07
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Uh-huh.
43:08
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
43:09
Ashley Doty: my jam.
43:10
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
43:10
Ashley Doty: help but sing it every time.
43:12
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And you know, I'm following The Voice this season, and I think one of the contestants sang it for their audition, if I'm remembering correctly, though I could be missing, mixing that up with you singing it at karaoke.
43:23
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): I'm not sure.
43:24
Ashley Doty: Uh, I'll take that as a compliment if someone on The Voice could
43:28
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Yeah.
43:29
Ashley Doty: us up.
43:30
Ashley Doty: I'm okay with it.
43:31
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): And is there anything else you wanna share with people about how to connect with you?
43:36
Ashley Doty: Yeah.
43:36
Ashley Doty: Oh, I'd love that.
43:37
Ashley Doty: I think, as you already mentioned, the, the Facebook group, Uncomplicating the Science of Learning, it, it's free.
43:43
Ashley Doty: Come on in.
43:44
Ashley Doty: Um, it's, it's meant to just share conversation, share ideas, things like that.
43:48
Ashley Doty: Uh, our website though, and what we do in professional learning, is uncomplicateed.com.
43:54
Ashley Doty: Um, it does have two Es, so it looks
43:56
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mhm.
43:56
Ashley Doty: uncomplicate ed.
43:57
Ashley Doty: But you can head over to our website if you wanna learn more about our professional learning or if you wanna check out PD in a Box,
44:04
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Mm-hmm.
44:05
Ashley Doty: that's something that you think your school would be interested in, in upskilling themselves too in facilitation, having the slides and the handouts literally already done for you, just to pass them out.
44:16
Ashley Doty: Um, but yeah, and, and then I'm on all the socials, so you know, just look, look it up there, Uncomplicate Ed or Ashlee Doty, you'll find me
44:23
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Great.
44:24
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Wonderful.
44:24
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well, I hope that this is the beginning of some mysterious ongoing collaborations bringing together academic coaching and the quirky, what I like to say, the quirky corners of schooling with the people who are not in the quirky corners of schooling, who are the leaders and the teachers, and I just think there might be some magic we'll eventually create together, and we just gotta keep talking.
44:49
Ashley Doty: I'm here for it,
44:50
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Okay.
44:51
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): All right.
44:52
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Well, thank you, Ashley, and take care, everyone.
44:54
Gretchen Wegner (she/her): Bye.
44:55
Ashley Doty: Bye