Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / Leo Bernal Future Star? Matthew Liberatore's Potential Bullpen Move, Quinn Mathews Upside

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Leo Bernal Future Star? Matthew Liberatore's Potential Bullpen Move, Quinn Mathews Upside · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
0:10
Speaker 1: Jim Hayes with my buddy Jeff Jones. And Jeff, before
0:13
Speaker 1: we get started, you work for the Bellevue News Democrat,
0:17
Speaker 1: but you also are writing on your own platform. Please
0:21
Speaker 1: tell us about that.
0:23
Speaker 2: Check out Words About Birds, wordsaboutbirds.com. We'll have stuff through
0:27
Speaker 2: the offseason as well. In fact, right now we have
0:29
Speaker 2: subscriptions open that'll last you until I get to spring
0:31
Speaker 2: training next year. Knock on wood, assuming that's in February.
0:34
Speaker 2: So check it out. We'd be happy to have you.
0:36
Speaker 2: Just this morning, a little column up about the importance
0:40
Speaker 2: of the excitement of looking back this weekend, but also
0:43
Speaker 2: the importance of maybe putting that in the shoebox for
0:44
Speaker 2: a while and making this team look a little bit forward.
0:48
Speaker 1: Fair enough, fair enough. Right now, Cardinals have an off day.
0:52
Speaker 1: for today. As you mentioned, they got the 06 reunion
0:55
Speaker 1: coming up on Friday, then Yachty and Albert going to
0:58
Speaker 1: the Cardinal Hall of Fame. Big weekend. Should be a
1:01
Speaker 1: ton of fun. I'll be there. You'll be there. Hopefully
1:04
Speaker 1: a lot of Cardinal fans will be there. A lot
1:06
Speaker 1: of fun. What wasn't fun was a three-game series in
1:10
Speaker 1: San Francisco, particularly the game on Wednesday where the Giants
1:16
Speaker 1: get six runs in the eighth. The Giants have trouble
1:20
Speaker 1: scoring six runs in a series. They got six runs
1:24
Speaker 1: in the eighth, and they swept the Cardinals. Now, we've
1:27
Speaker 1: had some losses like that this season, where the Cardinals
1:31
Speaker 1: are up, and maybe you stop, you know, watching the
1:34
Speaker 1: game because it's a day game. You got other things
1:36
Speaker 1: to do, and you go back, and you look at
1:37
Speaker 1: the score, and you go, huh. Now, Jeff, I'm a realist.
1:40
Speaker 1: You're a realist. It's a rebuild, okay? And there's been
1:43
Speaker 1: a lot of good out of this season. The Cardinals
1:46
Speaker 1: are close to 500. Some people thought that was an impossibility.
1:50
Speaker 1: And we've seen really good stretches and make you believe
1:53
Speaker 1: that this team is built for the future. But when
1:57
Speaker 1: I see that giant series, because the Cardinals look good
2:00
Speaker 1: taking two or three from the Dodgers in L.A., and
2:03
Speaker 1: then I see the giant series, I see a depleted bullpen.
2:06
Speaker 1: But I don't know. So my question is, what the hell?
2:10
Speaker 1: What the hell? Yeah, I mean.
2:12
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, when we talk about what's
2:15
Speaker 2: going to happen over the course of a season, right,
2:17
Speaker 2: and we talk about a team that might run out
2:19
Speaker 2: of pitching, I realize when I say that phrase sometimes
2:22
Speaker 2: it's sort of hard to understand what that looks like. Like,
2:25
Speaker 2: what is a material outcome that comes from running out
2:29
Speaker 2: of pitching? And the answer is it looks something like
2:31
Speaker 2: the end of the game on Wednesday, right, where Cade Winquest,
2:35
Speaker 2: for all the, you know, limited success he's had in
2:37
Speaker 2: what is now four or five, whatever it is, appearances
2:39
Speaker 2: in the big leagues, Is the guy who is 25
2:43
Speaker 2: and he's been in AAA for a long time and
2:45
Speaker 2: the stuff is there, but you're not entirely sure that,
2:48
Speaker 2: or AAA for this season, I should say, the stuff
2:51
Speaker 2: is there. You're not entirely sure that maybe it's going
2:54
Speaker 2: to carry over into results. So you give the guy
2:57
Speaker 2: a shot and then, you know, he leaves a mess
2:59
Speaker 2: for George Soriano. And as good as Soriano was say
3:03
Speaker 2: through July, maybe even into the beginning of August, it's
3:07
Speaker 2: also probably worth remembering that this is a guy who
3:09
Speaker 2: has now made the most relief appearances he's ever made
3:12
Speaker 2: as a professional. It's the most endings he's thrown since
3:15
Speaker 2: he was a starter in double a, whatever it was
3:17
Speaker 2: four or five years ago. And again, Also a guy
3:20
Speaker 2: who was available on waivers, I think literally five times
3:23
Speaker 2: over the winter, right? Like it's not like they had
3:26
Speaker 2: an absolute lockdown closer out there and you're shocked and
3:29
Speaker 2: shaken that it went away. This is, this is kind
3:31
Speaker 2: of a bullpen that is staffed by guys that are
3:34
Speaker 2: a little bit on this fringe of the big leagues, right?
3:36
Speaker 2: And that stands to reason when you have a rebuilding team,
3:39
Speaker 2: a lot of teams are not going to be investing
3:40
Speaker 2: a lot of big dollars in the bullpen. And oftentimes it's,
3:43
Speaker 2: That is the thing that comes last is sort of
3:45
Speaker 2: building out a reliable relief core. And the Cardinals mostly
3:49
Speaker 2: don't have one, have mostly gotten through the season without
3:53
Speaker 2: a lot of bad meltdowns. When they come there, they're
3:56
Speaker 2: pretty hard to ignore.
3:58
Speaker 1: And what we're seeing from some of the young guys,
4:00
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, is really encouraging. Let's, let's start with
4:04
Speaker 1: Leo Bernal, right? A lot of hype coming up and
4:07
Speaker 1: he comes up and he looks like a major leaguer.
4:09
Speaker 1: He looks like he has all the pieces and, to
4:12
Speaker 1: be the Cardinal catcher of the future. So my question is,
4:17
Speaker 1: is he?
4:19
Speaker 2: I think it's an interesting notion, especially because, you know,
4:23
Speaker 2: it would be hard to come away from the season.
4:26
Speaker 2: Jimmy Crooks had this here in the big leagues, anything
4:29
Speaker 2: kind of, but discouraged, right? The, the offense really wasn't there.
4:33
Speaker 2: And I think if it's fair to say that we
4:35
Speaker 2: saw some leaks in his defense, you know, whether or
4:37
Speaker 2: not those were downstream or, from the offense not being
4:40
Speaker 2: there I who can say but it was not I
4:43
Speaker 2: think in all encouraging season for Jimmy Crooks and and
4:47
Speaker 2: so that door is definitely open and you know Leo
4:50
Speaker 2: Bernal is a guy who has been really really widely
4:54
Speaker 2: heralded kind of as he's climbed up through the minors
4:56
Speaker 2: a guy who you know, a guy who you hear about, right?
4:59
Speaker 2: This is the guy who's coming. This is the guy
5:00
Speaker 2: who's going to be able to do it and certainly
5:02
Speaker 2: has looked every bit the kind of well-rounded catcher you
5:05
Speaker 2: would hope that he would be here nearly going. You know,
5:08
Speaker 2: we'll see obviously what it looks like when the season
5:10
Speaker 2: is over, what the players look like at the end
5:12
Speaker 2: of the season. I do think that whatever comes out
5:14
Speaker 2: of this year, the Cardinals have learned enough about their
5:17
Speaker 2: catching situation at the big league level and especially what's
5:20
Speaker 2: coming behind them kind of at the upper levels of
5:22
Speaker 2: the minors and that they are going to have to
5:23
Speaker 2: make some adjustments to this roster. There really are probably
5:26
Speaker 2: not enough rooms at the end for all of these
5:28
Speaker 2: guys going into 2027, whatever that looks like. And Bernal, honestly,
5:33
Speaker 2: over the last 10 days of this road trip, has
5:36
Speaker 2: helped to change that and has done enough over the
5:38
Speaker 2: last basically two weeks to help define what that looks
5:42
Speaker 2: like going forward for this team.
5:45
Speaker 1: And the thing I like about him is I like
5:48
Speaker 1: his eyes. I said this before in another podcast, but
5:52
Speaker 1: He's got that look in games, in the eyes, that
5:56
Speaker 1: Yachty had. Like, there's something about him I really like.
5:59
Speaker 1: But let's be honest, Jimmy Crooks was Bernard before he was, right?
6:03
Speaker 1: And I don't think all that, it doesn't all flush
6:06
Speaker 1: away because a young guy didn't adjust to big league
6:10
Speaker 1: pitching right away. We've seen that over the years. So
6:14
Speaker 1: the question is, at least with those two, are they
6:17
Speaker 1: still going to give Jimmy Crooks, do you think, wide
6:20
Speaker 1: latitude to be that guy again?
6:22
Speaker 3: Or.
6:22
Speaker 1: Do you think what he did at the big league
6:25
Speaker 1: level is going to cause him to maybe go in
6:27
Speaker 1: another direction?
6:30
Speaker 2: I think they have some ability for wiggle room there. Obviously,
6:34
Speaker 2: you know, the hit tool was really strong for crooks
6:37
Speaker 2: throughout the minors, the power as well. And it didn't
6:39
Speaker 2: really manifest at all in game situations this year.
6:42
Speaker 1: I'd have to look.
6:43
Speaker 2: I think the OPS still starts at the five point.
6:45
Speaker 2: to end his tenure in the big league this year.
6:47
Speaker 2: So it's really not what you want in, in terms
6:52
Speaker 2: of a first long look at the big league level. And,
6:55
Speaker 2: and there is no doubt that they gave him really
6:58
Speaker 2: every opportunity, you know, and they called them up, they
7:00
Speaker 2: kind of cleared the runway and said, Hey, he's going
7:02
Speaker 2: to play pretty well every day. And he did for
7:05
Speaker 2: a long time until he kind of demonstrated that maybe
7:08
Speaker 2: he wasn't there yet, that maybe he wasn't kind of
7:11
Speaker 2: ready for, for that responsibility. And then it did ratchet
7:14
Speaker 2: down to some extent. Now, you know, the age makes
7:18
Speaker 2: it a little bit difficult. Being in roughly the same
7:20
Speaker 2: spot in his career, maybe a year ahead as Bernal,
7:22
Speaker 2: makes it a little bit difficult. And the name that
7:25
Speaker 2: we have to say, we're talking about the catching, Is
7:27
Speaker 2: Ronnie Rodriguez, because there's no universe where we don't get
7:31
Speaker 2: to the I say no universe, no universe where he's healthy,
7:34
Speaker 2: where we don't get to the end of twenty twenty
7:36
Speaker 2: seven and aren't talking about. Is it time for Ronnie
7:39
Speaker 2: Rodriguez to be in the big leagues if it even
7:41
Speaker 2: takes that long?
7:42
Speaker 1: Right.
7:42
Speaker 2: Which I understand is an absurd thing to say about
7:44
Speaker 2: a guy who was 19 and a double A. But
7:47
Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's there is no way to oversell
7:50
Speaker 2: what he has been able to do offensively. at double
7:53
Speaker 2: a this season you can only undersell it it has
7:55
Speaker 2: been one of the better uh offensive double a seasons
7:58
Speaker 2: we have seen in baseball in the last couple of
8:01
Speaker 2: decades and from a catcher it is just almost unfathomable
8:04
Speaker 2: uh what he has done so that is a real
8:08
Speaker 2: real factor in how a lot of these choices are
8:10
Speaker 2: going to be made moving forward and it is not
8:13
Speaker 2: probably to jimmy crooks's benefit Just because that one extra
8:17
Speaker 2: year and those couple extra years, you know, in age
8:20
Speaker 2: on Bernal are going to push a little. And maybe
8:23
Speaker 2: we'll put the Cardinals in a spot where is the
8:25
Speaker 2: best way to get value out of Jimmy Crooks to
8:27
Speaker 2: see if other teams think there is there is something
8:30
Speaker 2: there for them. Maybe I can definitely see that being
8:33
Speaker 2: a path that they are, if not forced to go down,
8:36
Speaker 2: at least strongly encouraged by the shape of their roster
8:39
Speaker 2: and nothing else.
8:41
Speaker 1: So Rodriguez is posting monster numbers at the minors. No
8:45
Speaker 1: question about it. Some about crooks that the Cardinals do love.
8:48
Speaker 1: I mean, you've seen it too. This guy put in
8:51
Speaker 1: the work to prepare his pitchers to be in the
8:54
Speaker 1: meetings and did the extra work. And the catchers, I'm sorry,
8:59
Speaker 1: the pitchers really like him back there. They came up together,
9:02
Speaker 1: some of them. So there's a relationship there. So that's
9:05
Speaker 1: in defense of crooks. The other thing is with Herrera
9:09
Speaker 1: behind the plate, Okay, doesn't throw guys out, had some
9:13
Speaker 1: bad moments back there, but the guy can hit. Not
9:16
Speaker 1: having the kind of year I think we're all hoping for,
9:18
Speaker 1: but obviously really, really productive. But if he's just a DH,
9:24
Speaker 1: doesn't that lessen his value?
9:27
Speaker 2: It definitely does, and that is a difficult spot for them, right?
9:30
Speaker 2: You know, when people ask why they continued on this
9:33
Speaker 2: path with Herrera behind the plate, the simple explanation is
9:37
Speaker 2: he would be one of the best hitting catchers in
9:40
Speaker 2: the game. He would not be one of the best hitting,
9:43
Speaker 2: call it left field, first base, TH, whatever, catchers. And
9:46
Speaker 2: they're also not eager to kind of gum up the
9:48
Speaker 2: DH spot with one guy 100 percent of the time. Anyway,
9:52
Speaker 2: that's not that's not something that they that they love
9:54
Speaker 2: to have be their situation. So, again, has had a
9:57
Speaker 2: strong offensive year, not a strong offensive year. strong as
10:00
Speaker 2: the year before. You definitely have seen a little bit
10:02
Speaker 2: of a step back. I, I wonder how much of
10:06
Speaker 2: that is the result of how much he is catching
10:09
Speaker 2: this year. Last year, I think it was maybe a
10:11
Speaker 2: dozen games before we got hurt at the start of
10:13
Speaker 2: the season last And then they largely, I say largely,
10:15
Speaker 2: they abandoned the catching when he came back from that
10:18
Speaker 2: knee injury later in the year. And then he was
10:20
Speaker 2: really able to take off. So, OK, if he's not catching,
10:24
Speaker 2: does the offense increase? And if so, does it increase
10:26
Speaker 2: to such an extent that maybe he is a guy
10:28
Speaker 2: who you see as a DH? You know, first base
10:31
Speaker 2: is tough because I don't think that they're looking to
10:33
Speaker 2: make more space away from Alec Burleson.
10:35
Speaker 1: So are you.
10:35
Speaker 2: Talking about Herrera in the outfield? Maybe, but he also
10:39
Speaker 2: had a situation where he aggravated a knee injury while
10:42
Speaker 2: playing the outfield last season, right? These are all the
10:45
Speaker 2: things that kind of come into this and make it
10:47
Speaker 2: a difficult choice. And, you know, the other part of
10:50
Speaker 2: it too is, if Herrera is going to be one
10:54
Speaker 2: of the catchers on your roster, then you probably have
10:57
Speaker 2: to carry three, right? We've seen this throughout the season
10:59
Speaker 2: where you have one guy catching and have Herrera DH-ing
11:02
Speaker 2: and they still want to have a catcher available on
11:03
Speaker 2: the bench for whatever reason that you might need to
11:06
Speaker 2: have a catcher available. And so if that is the case,
11:09
Speaker 2: then what does that do to your roster flexibility moving forward?
11:12
Speaker 2: And it's not, it is not an easy answer to
11:14
Speaker 2: that question. And it's not one that I honestly feel
11:17
Speaker 2: super strongly about one way or the other, other than
11:20
Speaker 2: to say, hey, It has to be better behind the plate.
11:24
Speaker 2: It just has to be better. I don't know how
11:26
Speaker 2: you can let him catch 30, 40, 50 games next
11:30
Speaker 2: season and not have it be demonstrably better. But if
11:33
Speaker 2: it is not better, then I'm not sure what the
11:36
Speaker 2: next thing is.
11:37
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, that bat plays. And even though
11:40
Speaker 1: the season he's having offensively isn't, I think, where we
11:43
Speaker 1: thought it would be, this guy's going to hit. He's
11:45
Speaker 1: still a young guy. I would not put that bat away.
11:49
Speaker 1: We did find out some things on the road trip,
11:51
Speaker 1: I think, at least getting some information that can shape
11:56
Speaker 1: your belief in what the future holds. But to me,
12:00
Speaker 1: Quinn Matthews looks like a starter, a guy in the rotation.
12:03
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on him? Look, he's cut down
12:06
Speaker 1: on some of the walks. He's obviously throwing a lot
12:09
Speaker 1: of pitches, which isn't great, but he looks to me
12:13
Speaker 1: like a guy in your rotation.
12:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's it with Quinn, right? He has to
12:18
Speaker 2: walk fewer guys. If he can keep the walks down
12:21
Speaker 2: and keep the pitch count down, then he's able to
12:23
Speaker 2: access the rest of his stuff because he's always going
12:25
Speaker 2: to be a relatively high pitch count guy. There's a
12:26
Speaker 2: lot of swing and miss in that game. He's never
12:28
Speaker 2: going to be Mr. Efficiency. That's just not the way
12:30
Speaker 2: that he pitches. But has looked solid to really very
12:35
Speaker 2: good at some time. You know, do I think that
12:38
Speaker 2: you can go into the winter counting on him next
12:40
Speaker 2: season to give you 30 starts and 170 innings?
12:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:44
Speaker 2: That would be that that's sort of tough for me.
12:46
Speaker 2: I think you definitely go into spring with that being
12:49
Speaker 2: a possibility. I think you definitely go into spring looking
12:52
Speaker 2: at him as a guy who can win one of
12:55
Speaker 2: those spots, especially if you're going to be without a
12:57
Speaker 2: hundred Dobbins for all of next season, you assume that,
13:00
Speaker 2: you know, whatever the recovery period is for Richard Fitz,
13:03
Speaker 2: I can't imagine it on day one of spring. He's
13:05
Speaker 2: going to be like full go drop the hammer. And
13:08
Speaker 2: you're asking questions about where, you know, Matthew Libertor fits
13:11
Speaker 2: in the rotation moving forward or if he fits in it.
13:14
Speaker 1: Right.
13:14
Speaker 2: So there are, there are, there are no opportunities for
13:17
Speaker 2: Quinn Matthews to definitely grab one and make it his own.
13:20
Speaker 2: And I think you should give him every opportunity to
13:22
Speaker 2: do that. If you're the Cardinals, I just, I would
13:24
Speaker 2: want to see it a little bit more to, to
13:27
Speaker 2: be comfortable really kind of, you know, putting him in
13:30
Speaker 2: and Sharpie into that rotation.
13:32
Speaker 1: You mentioned, you mentioned Libby. And on this podcast, we
13:38
Speaker 1: love Libby. We've seen Libby pitch well. But it's been
13:41
Speaker 1: a rough go for Libby. And I'm not so sure
13:44
Speaker 1: what the answer is for that guy. Maybe a reset.
13:48
Speaker 1: But where do you think the Cardinals are with Libby
13:50
Speaker 1: right now?
13:52
Speaker 2: So I think the best way to think about how
13:54
Speaker 2: Libertor fits in for them moving forward is to think
13:56
Speaker 2: about the rest of the rotation, right? Because you would
13:58
Speaker 2: have to assume that going into next year, again– assuming
14:02
Speaker 2: that next year is representative of whatever a season might
14:04
Speaker 2: look like, you are looking at returning Palante and McGreevy
14:09
Speaker 2: and Leahy into the rotation. That assumes that you're not
14:13
Speaker 2: moving on from, you know, say, Palante in the offseason
14:15
Speaker 2: if a trade materializes, whatever. But let's assume those three
14:19
Speaker 2: guys take up three of the spots. Then you're talking
14:21
Speaker 2: about finding a spot for some combination of whether it's
14:24
Speaker 2: Matthews or Fitz or the guys coming up behind them
14:27
Speaker 2: that are in Memphis right now. You know, maybe that's
14:30
Speaker 2: one more spot. You would assume that they would at
14:32
Speaker 2: least sign some kind of veteran to be part of
14:36
Speaker 2: the rotation mix, not even necessarily for the coverage, or
14:39
Speaker 2: they will likely need it. but also because they've had
14:42
Speaker 2: a lot of success at flipping those guys into useful pieces.
14:46
Speaker 2: I think the Dustin May situation worked out just about
14:49
Speaker 2: as good as anybody could have asked it to, expected
14:51
Speaker 2: it to this year. And then, you know, they're excited
14:54
Speaker 2: about what they got for May and return the deadline. So, OK,
14:57
Speaker 2: that incentivizes them to bring in one more veteran. So
15:00
Speaker 2: now you're talking about five, six starters in the group.
15:03
Speaker 2: before you even get to Libertor. And that raises a
15:07
Speaker 2: really interesting question about the best place for him moving forward.
15:10
Speaker 2: You know, I always feel weird making this comparison because
15:14
Speaker 2: it feels like a lazy comparison, but it also feels
15:17
Speaker 2: kind of like a right-on-the-nose comparison He is the exact
15:21
Speaker 2: same age that Andrew Miller was when Andrew Miller stepped
15:24
Speaker 2: out of the rotation for good and became a full-time
15:26
Speaker 2: reliever for the rest of his career. I'm not saying
15:28
Speaker 2: that I think Libertor is going to become Andrew Miller.
15:30
Speaker 2: He doesn't maybe have that kind of like 80 grade plus, plus,
15:34
Speaker 2: plus one super pitch that Miller had, but we had
15:37
Speaker 2: seen him be really, really effective as a reliever. And
15:40
Speaker 2: I get why as a rebuilding team, you are always
15:42
Speaker 2: going to want to try to make a guy into
15:44
Speaker 2: a starter. If you can, I understand that more innings
15:47
Speaker 2: are always going to be, I get all of that stuff.
15:49
Speaker 2: I think that the year that Matthew Liberatore has had
15:51
Speaker 2: this year, and also, frankly, for a large part of
15:53
Speaker 2: last year, should get them to a point where they
15:57
Speaker 2: start asking serious questions about what are the bullpen is
16:00
Speaker 2: is the right path for him moving forward and if
16:02
Speaker 2: he's on board with that and if not okay does
16:05
Speaker 2: it work here does it work somewhere else i don't
16:07
Speaker 2: know you know and the other question too is what
16:10
Speaker 2: they can get out of him as a reliever do
16:12
Speaker 2: they think they can get more out of him on
16:13
Speaker 2: the trade market than they can get from him as
16:15
Speaker 2: a reliever just from a pure value perspective i don't
16:18
Speaker 2: know the answer to that either my suspicion would be
16:20
Speaker 2: probably not at this point but Who can say other
16:24
Speaker 2: than I don't know that you can really go into
16:26
Speaker 2: the winter intending to run it back with him in
16:28
Speaker 2: the same kind of prominence next year as you have
16:31
Speaker 2: seen this year.
16:33
Speaker 1: He was dominant out of the bullpen and a guy
16:35
Speaker 1: who give you one inning, maybe three innings. He wants
16:38
Speaker 1: to pitch and he also looked nasty. I mean, he
16:41
Speaker 1: looked kind of like a different guy on the mound
16:44
Speaker 1: when he came into games and high leverage situations had
16:47
Speaker 1: a little snarl to him. All right. Before the break,
16:50
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about a guy. who has
16:52
Speaker 1: hit at every level, except at the big league, and
16:55
Speaker 1: now he's hit it. And that's Thomas Sejaisi, because since
16:58
Speaker 1: he's come up, he's been pretty much Babe Ruth. And
17:01
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, look, I like Gorman at third base defensively.
17:05
Speaker 1: He's better than most people think, gives you some power there.
17:08
Speaker 1: I don't know where they are on him, but if
17:10
Speaker 1: it's not him, why not Sejaisi at third base? Because
17:13
Speaker 1: that guy has a bat.
17:16
Speaker 2: Maybe, and what we've seen here over this last stretch
17:19
Speaker 2: maybe does define some of that. I think that probably
17:23
Speaker 2: the best version of Thomas and JC is in sort
17:26
Speaker 2: of an enhanced version of the role that Jose Fermin
17:29
Speaker 2: has right now, right? As a guy who maybe can
17:32
Speaker 2: play five, six spots and then, and bounce around and, and,
17:35
Speaker 2: and be a useful part of a team. You know,
17:38
Speaker 2: the thing was to JC, that was really a challenge
17:40
Speaker 2: last year that I asked about a fair amount. I
17:42
Speaker 2: never got a very satisfactory answer to was just sort
17:45
Speaker 2: of where the power went because he was in the
17:47
Speaker 2: big leagues last year and You know, it was it
17:50
Speaker 2: was the power was gone. You would get singles now
17:53
Speaker 2: and again, you'd get the ball in play, but you
17:55
Speaker 2: were just not seeing any of the driving. Well, you know,
17:57
Speaker 2: the homers, the doubles, all that disappeared, obviously, over this
17:59
Speaker 2: road trip that that has come back strongly. He is
18:03
Speaker 2: he's played a really strong shortstop, I think, when Mason
18:05
Speaker 2: Wynn has been out, has looked really good at that spot.
18:08
Speaker 2: And so, you know, if you're talking about what what
18:10
Speaker 2: what can guys do over the last couple of weeks?
18:13
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's changed the way the organization
18:15
Speaker 2: looked at them, but at least to sort of solidify
18:17
Speaker 2: how they're looked at. No doubt. So JC has been
18:20
Speaker 2: one of the guys who has stepped up into that
18:22
Speaker 2: and I think has earned and will earn more opportunities
18:24
Speaker 2: from it.
18:26
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I don't care who's at short.
18:28
Speaker 1: I don't care what team you're watching. When you see
18:32
Speaker 1: a team that doesn't have Mason winning shortstop, you see
18:35
Speaker 1: a team that isn't getting as good defensively from their
18:38
Speaker 1: shortstop as the Cardinals get with Mason Wynn. When you
18:41
Speaker 1: watch games without Mason, you see a different team. Same
18:44
Speaker 1: with JJ at second base. Those two guys being out
18:47
Speaker 1: make the team a different team defensively. Not a shot
18:50
Speaker 1: at the guys filling in, but that's just the way
18:53
Speaker 1: it is. Let's take a break here. You're watching Cardinal
18:55
Speaker 1: Territory on the Foul Territory Network.
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19:58
Speaker 1: All right, we're talking about guys we learned some about.
20:01
Speaker 1: We got to see Connor Jerpy, and what did he do?
20:05
Speaker 1: Four perfect innings, right? And struck out six. And this
20:10
Speaker 1: is a guy who's coming off Tommy John. I don't
20:13
Speaker 1: think the Cardinals, unless the bullpen had been a disaster
20:16
Speaker 1: and having some starters not in the mix, I don't
20:20
Speaker 1: know if you would have seen him this season because
20:22
Speaker 1: you probably want to err on the side of caution.
20:25
Speaker 1: But we saw him, and Jeff, he looked really good.
20:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing with Chirpy and guys like that is
20:32
Speaker 2: that it's such a unique look that guys never see, right?
20:37
Speaker 2: You have that complete, like, from the three-quarter, from the side,
20:40
Speaker 2: across his body, ball completely hidden, you know, kind of
20:44
Speaker 2: makes up for what he lacks in extension, maybe makes
20:47
Speaker 2: up a lot of the velocity deficit when you have
20:49
Speaker 2: that much deception and delivery, and you saw it. It
20:52
Speaker 2: was a really uncomfortable at bat for four innings worth
20:55
Speaker 2: of big league hitters, and that's That's difficult to do.
20:58
Speaker 2: You know, what does it look like the second time
21:00
Speaker 2: he sees a team? What does it look like second
21:02
Speaker 2: time through in a single game? What does it look
21:03
Speaker 2: like 20 starts into a season? I don't really know.
21:06
Speaker 2: I don't know that the Cardinals necessarily know either, but
21:09
Speaker 2: he has pitched really well since coming back this year.
21:12
Speaker 2: You know, it was a long road back. It was,
21:14
Speaker 2: you know, close to two years between appearances and games
21:16
Speaker 2: for him. from being injured to having the surgery to
21:19
Speaker 2: recovering and all that. But you're right, the Cardinals found
21:22
Speaker 2: themselves in a place where they did need him because
21:24
Speaker 2: the original plan was for Quinn Matthews to piggyback behind
21:28
Speaker 2: Kyle Leahy as Leahy kind of winds his innings down. Well,
21:32
Speaker 2: they need Matthews to pitch in the rotation now. So
21:34
Speaker 2: if Chirpy can be that guy for, you know, a
21:37
Speaker 2: couple of more starts behind Leahy and be the guy
21:41
Speaker 2: who can give you, you're not going to get four
21:42
Speaker 2: perfect every time, but can give you a really representative effort,
21:46
Speaker 2: That's exciting for them because it also means that they
21:48
Speaker 2: go into the winter with a little bit more confidence
21:50
Speaker 2: that he can be a part of the mix next
21:52
Speaker 2: year in some form or fashion.
21:54
Speaker 1: Pretty cool. Pretty cool to see. I mean, you don't
21:56
Speaker 1: get perfect innings. You don't get much of that from
21:59
Speaker 1: the Cardinal bullpen these days anyway. And he looked really good.
22:02
Speaker 1: All right. I'm going to give you this question and
22:05
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you my answers first. Give me
22:07
Speaker 1: two guys that you didn't see coming. Two guys that
22:11
Speaker 1: suddenly this season have come into play and have shown
22:16
Speaker 1: well that you didn't see coming. I'm going to give
22:19
Speaker 1: you two, and one is my unsung hero. I'm going
22:21
Speaker 1: to start with him. For me, there was a guy
22:24
Speaker 1: who I thought initially was roster putty, right? A guy
22:29
Speaker 1: who could do different things. You put him, you didn't
22:31
Speaker 1: expect much. Now when the Cardinals rally, and they rally
22:34
Speaker 1: a lot, we've seen that, right? We've seen a lot
22:37
Speaker 1: of that punch back stuff. He's always in the middle
22:40
Speaker 1: of it. He gives you a really solid at bat.
22:42
Speaker 1: He's I don't know, his average doesn't knock you out
22:45
Speaker 1: with two strikes, but he always fouls off five or
22:48
Speaker 1: six pitches. It gives you a solid at-bat. And then,
22:51
Speaker 1: you know, you weren't supposed to see him in the outfield.
22:53
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, he's in center. We don't love
22:55
Speaker 1: his defense in the infield. Oh, look, he's at shortstop.
22:58
Speaker 1: And you know what? He does everything fine. He's a guy,
23:01
Speaker 1: I'm not saying he's going to start for every game,
23:04
Speaker 1: but to me, he's a really important piece to this
23:06
Speaker 1: ball club. Better, I think, than anyone thought. And then
23:10
Speaker 1: the other guy, that I really like is Gastelum, who,
23:15
Speaker 1: when they first brought him up, kind of looked overmatched,
23:18
Speaker 1: didn't know how to set up that changeup of his.
23:22
Speaker 1: And now he looks like a guy you can see
23:24
Speaker 1: being a big part of that bullpen going forward. Those
23:27
Speaker 1: are my two. First of all, agree or disagree. And second,
23:31
Speaker 1: give me your two. Or did I steal the two
23:33
Speaker 1: best ones?
23:34
Speaker 2: No, so I definitely agree with those two. My only
23:37
Speaker 2: caveat for me was a guy who, you know, and
23:39
Speaker 2: I joked about this at the end of last year
23:41
Speaker 2: that like we would show up to spring training this
23:43
Speaker 2: year and Heim would have him starting at second base
23:46
Speaker 2: and he would hit like 360 with no slug and
23:48
Speaker 2: one of adding time because he just has that kind
23:50
Speaker 2: of at the ball skill. But no, I think that
23:52
Speaker 2: you're right that if nothing else, he has demonstrated this
23:55
Speaker 2: season that he is a big leaguer, right? He has
23:59
Speaker 2: a useful place on a big league roster. That was
24:01
Speaker 2: not maybe a guarantee. before this year. And so he,
24:03
Speaker 2: you know, definitely to his credit, if I'm going to
24:06
Speaker 2: pick two guys that have, that have maybe contributed more
24:10
Speaker 2: than I would have expected, what I'll do one in
24:13
Speaker 2: season or one kind of low key full season blaze Jordan,
24:17
Speaker 2: I thought was better at third base, especially then we
24:21
Speaker 2: were kind of told kind of warned that he might be,
24:24
Speaker 2: you know, kind of in the run up there in June.
24:26
Speaker 2: So when they finally sent Nolan Gorman back to Memphis,
24:29
Speaker 2: you know, ask him, you'd ask around about plays Jordan.
24:31
Speaker 2: And a lot of the response that you get would
24:33
Speaker 2: be like, and there was not a lot of confidence
24:36
Speaker 2: that he would be able to handle third every day.
24:39
Speaker 2: He was not great shakes over there, right? He's not
24:41
Speaker 2: going to win a gold glove at third base, but
24:43
Speaker 2: he was fine. He was stable enough over there. He
24:45
Speaker 2: held it together. And, and, you know, right before he
24:47
Speaker 2: got hurt was really sort of finding the power stroke
24:50
Speaker 2: a little bit and looking a little bit more comfortably
24:52
Speaker 2: like the hitter that I think that he can be. So,
24:55
Speaker 2: you know, again, a guy who had not protected in
24:58
Speaker 2: the rule five last winter, you know, maybe you're questioning
25:00
Speaker 2: whether there's a lot of, of, of space for him
25:03
Speaker 2: with the organization moving forward had, I think a really
25:06
Speaker 2: kind of good representative year for his skillset and was
25:09
Speaker 2: rounding into form at the right way, right at the
25:11
Speaker 2: right time, rather before the ankle got hurt.
25:14
Speaker 1: Yeah.
25:14
Speaker 2: We, they had not said his season is over. I
25:16
Speaker 2: think that that probably is a reasonable assumption. We'll see
25:19
Speaker 2: where it goes from there. The second guy and a
25:22
Speaker 2: guy that, you know, doesn't get talked about a lot,
25:25
Speaker 2: doesn't get talked to a lot, but we talk about
25:28
Speaker 2: the bullpen and the challenges they have had kind of
25:31
Speaker 2: getting through innings. Justin Brule is over 70 innings pitched
25:35
Speaker 2: out of the bullpen this season. I noticed that the
25:37
Speaker 2: other day when he came in and I was curious,
25:39
Speaker 2: you know, in 2021, I think all of Gallegos, Helsley,
25:46
Speaker 2: and Genesis Cabrera went over 70 innings. Before that, you
25:49
Speaker 2: got to go back to 2019 to find anybody who
25:52
Speaker 2: would throw in 70 innings. And Justin Brule has been
25:55
Speaker 2: really good in terms of what a second lefty can
25:57
Speaker 2: look like, should look like out of the bullpen. He
26:00
Speaker 2: has been like the absolute model of this is what
26:04
Speaker 2: the second left-hander you would hope would look like for
26:07
Speaker 2: a team. A guy who can handle multiple innings at once.
26:09
Speaker 2: A guy who can get you a strikeout if you
26:11
Speaker 2: need to. Keeps the ball in the ballpark. hasn't hurt them, right?
26:16
Speaker 2: Has he done anything that really has blown you away?
26:18
Speaker 2: He's had a couple of games where he'll get two
26:21
Speaker 2: and a third of shutout and go, wow, he was
26:23
Speaker 2: in the bullpen tonight, but has just been really consistently
26:28
Speaker 2: a good second lefty, B-plus, useful kind of bullpen piece.
26:32
Speaker 2: Maybe that sounds like damning with faint praise, but that's useful.
26:36
Speaker 2: That is a guy who helps your team if you
26:39
Speaker 2: have him in your bullpen, and I think he deserves
26:41
Speaker 2: some credit for that.
26:43
Speaker 1: I think those are two good picks. And Broll, I think,
26:46
Speaker 1: in many cases, have saved their bacon when they had
26:50
Speaker 1: nowhere else to turn, and he came in and pitched
26:52
Speaker 1: very well. And with Blaze Jordan, to me, and maybe
26:56
Speaker 1: I'm objectifying him too much, I think he's a victim
27:01
Speaker 1: because he looks a little bit like a softball player, okay?
27:04
Speaker 1: So do I. Okay, I'm just saying. He doesn't look
27:06
Speaker 1: like a guy who's going to be able to take
27:09
Speaker 1: the pitch the other way and be like, a bonafide
27:13
Speaker 1: hitter as opposed to a guy swinging for the fences
27:15
Speaker 1: and defensively I'm with you. He's fine. And he makes
27:19
Speaker 1: some plays you don't expect. He's not going to win
27:21
Speaker 1: a gold glove, but I think blaze Jordan as a
27:24
Speaker 1: hitter can do a lot more than we've seen. He's
27:26
Speaker 1: got power. He's got opposite field power. I like that,
27:30
Speaker 1: that he, that he uses the whole field, which is,
27:33
Speaker 1: you know, if you look at them, you're like, Oh,
27:34
Speaker 1: that's the kid that, you know, hit a 500 foot Homer,
27:37
Speaker 1: you know, when he was 12 years old. No, no,
27:39
Speaker 1: this is a guy to me. Who's ahead? All right,
27:43
Speaker 1: last thing. The Major League Baseball front office, the commissioner,
27:50
Speaker 1: they've already talked about wanting to expand eventually, right? People
27:54
Speaker 1: are putting out conjecture what that might look like. And
27:58
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, are we going to play next year? I
28:02
Speaker 1: don't care about expansion. I don't really want to guess
28:04
Speaker 1: what cities. I want to know if we're going to
28:07
Speaker 1: be playing baseball next season. Because guess what? This season's
28:11
Speaker 1: coming to an end faster than we realize, is there
28:16
Speaker 1: going to be baseball next year?
28:18
Speaker 2: I would say yes. If you told me today that
28:22
Speaker 2: I had to draw an over-under line for number of
28:25
Speaker 2: games in the MLB season next year, I would say
28:28
Speaker 2: the line is probably somewhere around like 129.5. If you
28:34
Speaker 2: told me they were going to miss a month of games,
28:36
Speaker 2: that opening day was going to be on May 1st,
28:38
Speaker 2: they were going to squeeze in 125 game season. I
28:43
Speaker 2: think blind, you would probably take that today because it
28:47
Speaker 2: avoids sort of the worst outcomes.
28:49
Speaker 1: Of no season.
28:50
Speaker 2: And that is really hard for me to imagine. It
28:54
Speaker 2: is so hard for me to think that that teams, which,
28:58
Speaker 2: you know, as much as we've heard teams talk about
29:00
Speaker 2: how challenging their revenue streams are year after year to
29:03
Speaker 2: shut them off within six years of living through the
29:06
Speaker 2: 2020 season, where they kind of had to deal with
29:08
Speaker 2: the reality of having the revenue streams mostly shut off
29:12
Speaker 2: for nearly the entirety of the season. I think that
29:14
Speaker 2: was probably a fairly sobering experience that, that, that alters
29:18
Speaker 2: some of this and maybe forces some of this to
29:20
Speaker 2: come together a little bit. So I do think there
29:23
Speaker 2: will be baseball. And I also think frankly, i think
29:27
Speaker 2: the expansion question is related to the lockout question in
29:31
Speaker 2: as much as you know if we assume that they're
29:35
Speaker 2: going to add two expansion teams it feels like a
29:37
Speaker 2: pretty safe assumption at this point that you're going to
29:39
Speaker 2: be getting two new big league teams say by the
29:42
Speaker 2: end of the decade, if that is the case and
29:45
Speaker 2: you consider what the expansion fees look like for a team,
29:49
Speaker 2: you know, the angels just sold for $ 4 billion. And
29:52
Speaker 2: I don't think MLB is going to be especially eager to,
29:55
Speaker 2: for teams to come in at valuations that are much
29:58
Speaker 2: below that. So even, even if let's say, you know,
30:01
Speaker 2: let's throw a dart at the wall and say the
30:03
Speaker 2: expansion fee is like 3 billion per franchise, a billion
30:07
Speaker 2: less than the angels were valued at when they were
30:09
Speaker 2: sold for. then you're still talking about like $ 6 billion
30:14
Speaker 2: that you get to split up among the other 30 teams,
30:17
Speaker 2: perhaps not equally, because one way that maybe you solve
30:20
Speaker 2: some of these economic problems coming out of the lockout, i.e.
30:23
Speaker 2: the league wanting to have more control over the TV
30:26
Speaker 2: product and to centralize some of that stuff, maybe one
30:29
Speaker 2: way that you kind of make the Dodgers and the
30:31
Speaker 2: Yankees and the Cubs and the Mets, these organizations who
30:34
Speaker 2: own their own TV broadcasts, You make them happy by
30:39
Speaker 2: maybe dividing up the revenue from the expansion fees, not
30:44
Speaker 2: entirely equally. Maybe there's a way to squeeze that lemon
30:47
Speaker 2: a little bit and get a little more juice out
30:49
Speaker 2: of that. You know, there are much more qualified people
30:51
Speaker 2: than me who know all the economics, all this stuff work.
30:54
Speaker 2: But it's so hard for me not to look at
30:57
Speaker 2: that as an opportunity to sort of settle some issues
31:01
Speaker 2: that may otherwise be a problem in the labor conversation.
31:06
Speaker 1: Also- The players don't win if they don't have a season,
31:10
Speaker 1: and the owners don't win because fans are not happy,
31:14
Speaker 1: and you have to think about the long-term health of
31:16
Speaker 1: the game. Although I am told that the Players Union
31:19
Speaker 1: has a nice war chest built up to help some
31:22
Speaker 1: of the players out that might need some financial help.
31:25
Speaker 1: But also, the normal guys on this podcast tell me,
31:28
Speaker 1: I forget, they know that the amount of games that
31:31
Speaker 1: have to be played in a season for there to
31:34
Speaker 1: be a postseason is Because they say there is no
31:37
Speaker 1: way the owners will do without postseason revenue. And that's
31:41
Speaker 1: the thing that will save having games played this year. Right?
31:44
Speaker 1: Do you agree with that?
31:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really smart point. The only
31:48
Speaker 2: thing I would add to it is... I bet that
31:52
Speaker 2: that number is higher than 60 because my suspicion is
31:56
Speaker 2: that they do not want to live through 2020 again, where,
31:59
Speaker 2: you know, guys came back for, for that workout camp
32:01
Speaker 2: and like the second week of July and the season
32:03
Speaker 2: was getting kicked off around the 23rd, 24th of July.
32:07
Speaker 2: And they had to sprint through 60 games to play
32:09
Speaker 2: a coincident playoff. I bet I've had the number of
32:11
Speaker 2: games to get to a postseason is higher than that.
32:14
Speaker 2: I bet it's probably triple digits. Maybe it's maybe it's
32:18
Speaker 2: less than 100, but if so, just barely. So, you know,
32:20
Speaker 2: we'll learn through the course of negotiation and, you know,
32:23
Speaker 2: knock on wood, hopefully not. But if a lockout drags
32:26
Speaker 2: on into the regular season calendar, we'll learn how far
32:29
Speaker 2: teams and players are willing to push it in terms
32:33
Speaker 2: of stressing that schedule.
32:35
Speaker 1: Lance Lynn, who's in Italy right now, says they know
32:38
Speaker 1: the amount of games and everyone understands what they're dealing with,
32:42
Speaker 1: so there will be games. You know what, Jeff? You
32:44
Speaker 1: love baseball. I love baseball. Thanks for coming on the
32:47
Speaker 1: podcast today.
32:49
Speaker 2: I'm always happy to do it, The Cat. It's my
32:51
Speaker 2: favorite thing of the day. Good to see you.
32:53
Speaker 1: God bless you, and you're not telling the truth. That's
32:55
Speaker 1: going to do it for this edition of Cardinal Territory.
32:59
Speaker 1: We'll see you for the next episode. Hopefully, that one
33:01
Speaker 1: won't suck.