Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 776: How A Mother and Daughter Joined to Heal Their Past with Kimberly Maize MSW and Savannah Woodard

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Episode 776: How A Mother and Daughter Joined to Heal Their Past with Kimberly Maize MSW and Savannah Woodard · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson. My
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mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in who
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we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity,
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genuiness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com. That's
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the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. Five four, three
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two and one. Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited.
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That was my guest today. Kimberly Mays and Savannah Woodward. Kimberly and
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Savannah, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, welcome So. Kimberly Mays
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and Savannah Woodward are a mother daughter powerhouse duo who co founded One Planet Healing,
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a grassroots trauma survivor and woman own organization focused on minimizing the retraumatization of
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people impacted by trauma. Their focus is on the human rights and social justice
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issues created by institutional betrayal, changing the current paradigm of seeking people in their
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recovery and providing opportunities for people to learn in depth perspectives of trauma resolution.
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Kimberly utilized for decades of introspection during her recovery from the associative identity disorder,
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working with hundreds of people impacted by trauma, and implementing research and insights from
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wisdom keepers worldwide, and developing the life saving trauma responses to model. Savannah
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is the second generation trauma specialist and a Moving the Human Spirit certified Trauma Informed
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Coach. Savannah has a decade of experience, invest knowledge and working with people
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impacted by trauma and is most passionate about helping utilizing your experiences of recovery,
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been working with families and healing intergenerational or transgenerational trumps. Enoufa there, Welcome
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to the podcast. Thank you so much. So all right, before we
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go in, your share with the listeners where you're from originally and where you
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both are currently. We're both from southern California originally. I moved to Iowa
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in the early nineties to provide a safer and some distance from my family of
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origin and to get her at a safer place to be than where our hometown
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is pretty dangerous and there was a university in the town that we moved to,
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and so that's where we ended up. Now we're in Wisconsin. After
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you know, a cup a decade or so of going different places, we've
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landed in the Midwest. So Savannah, let me ask you, how did
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this interest in what you're doing start for you? Well, to be honest,
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I feel like I was kind of born into it, you know,
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born into a really traumatizing environment, and eventually as I got older, being
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surrounded by social workers. And you know, my mom received a diagnosis when
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I was thirteen, a trauma informed diagnosis that really changed our lives. And
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I think that my true wake up call is too, why trauma formed care
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and trauma specific education is so important is when I had my own children,
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and I really recognized how my childhood trauma affected how I parented and how I
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showed up for them. And so that's what really led to me diving deep
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is to not only improve my own experience as a parent, but also help
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other parents, you know, not struggle so much. So kimberly share with
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the listeners who might not have listened in on our first episode, but give
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us, give us a thumbnail sketch of your experience. What led you to
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this field. Well, like Savannah said, I was definitely born into it.
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I have to be honest. I didn't have the capacity at the time
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to make any grounded, insightful decisions about what I wanted to do with my
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life. I honestly went to school because school was very easy for me.
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I could basically do nothing and get a's and fall apart inside, which is
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what I was doing. I ended up going into social work because I,
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like I said, I wanted to be able to continue going to school and
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at financial aid because I was literally, you know, I was extremely dissociative
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and fragmented, and I didn't get I was in school from the early nineties
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and then I went I ended up dropping out of graduate school, but went
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back later after I had some recovery, So that was in two thousand or
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nineteen ninety nine. I didn't get my my what we consider a trauma informed
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as much as you could at the time diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder until two
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thousand and three, So I was very fragmented and dissociating. What age were
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you at that point? Thirty three? Okay, So how did you,
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how were you managing during prior to that? During that time, not very
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well, as you know, her child can contest. I, like I
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said, I mean I was in and out of the psychiatric hospital, suicidal
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ideation, attempts, self harm, thirty forty hospitalizations. I was on security
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disability, and I honestly, you know, some people say that they don't
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remember their childhood. I honestly don't remember probably eighty five percent of my entire
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life, because that's the severity of my dissociation. Honestly, I had enough
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intellect, which is a privilege. I think, you know, I had
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enough intellect to be able to succeed, you know, like a parent competency,
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like Marshall and Hanson. I looked different than I was because I was
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able to succeed in school while still being d id because I could front,
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I could show up and I was able to do very well, and I
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got fintal aid. Back then, single mothers got a lot of money,
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and so I lived in government housing and I barely. I didn't make it
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very well. By the time I had my diagnosis, I had completely self
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functioning. I was not working, was not going to school. I was
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you know, probably the one of the closest times to ending my life when
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my my psychiatrist got trauma informed. He went and trained with doctor Colin Ross
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at Timberlawn in Texas. And getting the ID diagnoses then is not like now
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where it seems to be much more prevalent of a diagnosis. Then you didn't
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get that diagnosis, and so for him, and he had been my psychiatrist
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for ten years, so he knew me. And you know, he actually
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apologized to me later and said, I'm sorry this diagnosed you with all those
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diagnosed ses. I just didn't know. I wasn't confident enough in my ability
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to diagnose trauma to give you the diagnosis that I felt you deserved. But
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now it's so blaringly off it obvious, and that diagnosis literally changed our lives
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and saved my life because I finally didn't see myself as a mentally ill person
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anymore. I was like, oh, now I see what you're telling me,
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and that makes more sense. That's the only diagnosis I ever resonated with,
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and I had twenty five different diagnoses during my years in the mental health
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system. Why we're here, Yeah, first of all, I mean appreciate
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both of you coming on here and sharing this. This is uh, I
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would imagine, not very easy to share. To talk about all this stuff,
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talk about your life like this, I think it takes a lot of
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courage. And I really appreciate and commend you for the work you're doing,
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and I want to get into the great work you're doing, but I also
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want to set the stage here. So, Kimberly, you said you grew
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up in a I guess chaotic would be an understated statement. Kaok life,
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traumatizing life, childhood understatement, Yes, yes, my trauma. Okay,
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yeah, it's extreme. Now, Savannah, you so was it both of
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you? Did you do have siblings? Savannah, I'm the only child me?
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Okay, okay, So your mother raised you? To what degree were
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you aware of what was going on? How did you interpret what was what
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was going on? You know, I think that when I was really young,
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it was so normalized that it was just kind of what it was,
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and it was just what I dealt with daily, and and I just,
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yeah, I was just kind of in that childlife perspective of my mom of
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my situation. It wasn't until you know, maybe ten eleven twelve when I
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started realizing that I was different than other people that you know, my mom
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was different, my home was different, and you know, to be perfectly
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honest, I don't think I truly understood the severity of my trauma until my
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mid to late twenties, when I really was able to slow down do my
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own work process. There was a little bit more space in my life to
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be able to look inward and to work on myself. I started to do
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more yoga and meditation, doing more introspection, and I really became hyper aware
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of how my trauma impacted my behavior. And again, like I said,
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when my children were born. I was twenty five and twenty six when my
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two sons were born. And you know, I know a lot of parents
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out there kind of feel this way too, that they are a direct reflection
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of who you are and what you've been through, your beliefs, your values,
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your habits. And it was like having two little mirrors just running around.
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And then once I lost my first husband in twenty nineteen, everything changed.
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I recognized how I had recreated my role, my childhood role of care
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grit giver onto my husband, how that affected me, my relationship with my
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mom, my relationship with my kids, and That's really when I was like,
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trauma is now everything to me. I understand my life and most of
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the people around me. And that's when things really changed. So the last
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four years, I've just taken a deep dive. Well and she and you
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know her her childhood was you know, is my mom going to take her
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life? Is my mom? My mom's going to the hospital again? My
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mom? You know, her entire life revolved around me and getting my met.
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She was very much secondary and I was so motivated by trauma. You
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know, sometimes when people's trauma is so big, they don't see anyone else,
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including their children. Which is why we're here again, is to help
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We want to minimize that and help people to recognize that all trauma motivated behaviors
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are understandable reactions to their experiences and it's okay to not be ashamed that your
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parenting is affecting your children. I mean, this is what our podcast is
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about. A New Generation podcast is us telling about how we had to take
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radical responsibility to heal the transgenerational intergenerational trauma. And that's a hard look at
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my impact her as a parent, and her on her children, and my
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generational trauma and so her role as my caretaker was so recreated in her relationships.
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I think it wasn't until, like she said, her first husband took
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his life that she really realized, Wait a minute, this role was created
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by my mom. Absolutely. So is ther point, Savannah, where you
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went took off when to live quote unquote live your life? What point was
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that? When did you guys kind of separate? Not very well? We
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were very very unmatched. Yeah, so it's kind of you know, been
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touch and go for many years. There's been times throughout my life where I've
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tried to distance, try to do my own work, and then come with
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the intention of coming back to my family system more well adjusted. And I
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was continually being retraumatized by different parts of my life that it was nearly impossible
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to be able to do that work. You know. I think that I
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first tried to do that when I was sixteen or seventeen. I moved out
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of my mom's house into my grandparents' house, and then I moved into my
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own apartment before I was eighteen. And there were a few years there while
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I was trying to sober up from substances, I was trying to find my
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autonomy, and I feel like I succeeded to do so. You know,
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it kind of wasn' layers over the years, and so I think that was
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the first layer in me saying, Okay, I'm allowed to kind of step
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away from my mom. My mom had started to prove to me that she
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was well enough, and this was obvious, maybe not obvious, but obvious
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to me now very subconscious that I was trying to pull away. And there
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have been many times throughout my life where we've taken space, We've gone months
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at a time. But one of the most impactful boundaries that I've asserted in
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my life was what we called the Divide. We talk about it on our
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podcast quite a bit, and it was a eighteen month no con tapped where
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my mom and I had no contact for eighteen months and my sole intention was
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to try to find autonomy after decades of enmeshment. You named it the Divide.
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Yes, yes, later after we came back, because we both have
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talked about it and agreed at the time, the extent of the trauma that
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caused the incidents that led up to the divide were so extreme that both of
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us thought we'd never talk to each other again. I literally thought I'd never
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talk to my daughter or see my grands again. Yeah, so okay,
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let's just want to pause here for a moment to thank our sponsors. We're
15:39
talking with Kimberly Mays and Savannah Woodward of One Planet Healing. We'll be back
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in a couple of seconds. Hang on here, folks. All right,
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So how what brought you back? How did that event happened? Well,
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there was something going on in my personal life that led to us having to
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have conversations. Just for legal reasons. I had to ask her a couple
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of questions to be able to get through on a lawsuit that I'd been enduring.
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And that was the first practical reason as to why we'd reconnected. I
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had already been considering wanting to reconnect because we had had some communication the last
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couple of months of our no contact around our perspective what we thought had happened.
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It was a first attempt at repair, and because that had been going
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successful, we were able to communicate in a way that we hadn't before.
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Although it was via email, there was definitely a shift in the relationship dynamic
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and communication that was very clear to me, And so I was already considering
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reconnecting, and then this very terrible situation kind of brought us back together.
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But it was meant to be, I feel. And so after we were
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able to communicate about something that was so difficult, I was kind of like,
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well, okay, we got through that, maybe we could talk about
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other difficult things. And that was just kind of the door opening to many
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many conversations on our perspective on why it had been the way that it had
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been, what we needed to do, you know, taking radical self being,
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radically self aware, taking radical self responsibility of me as a daughter,
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this is how I contributed. You as a mom, this is how you
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contributed. We were able to really hold space for one another, validate one
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another, and really got through some of those really difficult conversations that we had
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been avoiding for decades. And it's quite pause a second here, sure,
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so I don't want to skip over that, because that in and of itself
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is incredible. I mean that you have the ability wherewithal the awareness to you
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know, look at the roles each of you quote unquote played in this.
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I'm curious, Kimberlyeve. I mean, this is you know, I just
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can't imagine what you've gone through and and how are you doing now? Fantastic?
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That amazing ever been? Yeah, I mean it's it's I actually sometimes
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say to myself, Wow, I can't believe who you are now. I
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mean, living as a person who had such severe complex trauma, what I've
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been through, having that diagnosis, fully integrating that diagnosis, which probably took
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about two decades. The you know, the truth of the matter is is
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that I had to look at what needs childhood needs I was trying to get
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met through my daughter that didn't belong to her, and that was a physical
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feeling I could feel inside. And because I got none of my needs met
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from my mom or family of origin, I overly enmeshed and tried to overly
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attach with her, and it was suffocating her and it was starting to come
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out, you know, on the grandkids. And even though the divide was
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the most painful thing I ever had been through, because I thought I was
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gonna lose the only family I had, it had to happen because I had
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to. I had to become an individual person by myself that didn't have these
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attachment wounded attachment issues with my daughter. And because I did that, I'm
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you know, I became a whole individualized person that can meet my own needs.
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What has allowed you or helped you to gain this type of awareness the
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trauma response syndrome model, the model that I created to help with trauma resolution
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to your own model, your own development of this model, How did you
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develop that? What helped you? Pardon me to at some point you know,
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you've got to stand back, be able to stand back and look at
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what has gone on? What enabled you to do that initially? So what
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I able to do that initially has become is because I became extremely hyper focused
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on trauma and learning about trauma. So I started reading all the Bessel vander
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Koch's research in the early two thousands, and you know, reading about childhood
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developmental disorder, which is what he's you know, trying to put in the
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DSM, and that research wasn't published yet. I took a really deep dive
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into you know, doctor Colin Ross's work, Alice Miller, you know Patrick
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Carnes with sex addiction, those kinds of things. I went in patient on
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a trauma unit for thirty days that don't it doesn't exist anymore because of course
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they lose funding. But that really opened my eyes and helped me to understand.
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I I literally once although I didn't really remember once, once it was
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put in a trauma paradigm, what was going on with me, I did
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begin to I stepped back and started to witness why was I doing what I
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was doing? Because because it took probably about three years of very very intense
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trauma therapy before I could was even integrated enough to be able to function.
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So you know, it took five years before I was okay enough to be
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able to like take a step back, take radical responsibility, be able to
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the biggest thing was to watch myself and think what why was I doing what
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I was doing? And it came back down to trauma based needs and understanding
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the concepts that have been created into this model when they were really tiny and
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and them growing and taking you know, concepts from theories and then applying trauma
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to them and making it bigger because you know, a lot of people don't
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understand the intricacies of trauma trauma motivated behaviors, and that's what I started to
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recognize a witness. But of course the number one thing is I stopped engaging
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in the trauma motivated behaviors. I stopped engaging in men with men and no
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drugs and alcohol. You know, I became. I stopped retraumatizing myself every
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day, my own behaviors. That's the key. Probably, how did one
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planet healing start? How did you folks come about let's let's do this.
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Probably it started with the extreme. You know, we're not anti psychiatry.
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We are pro informed, consent, pro informed. What I call pro informed
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diagnosing is that we need to stop the medicalizing and pathologizing of humans. That's
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the main thing is that when you spent twenty five years in a mental health
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system where you're misdiagnosed and wrongly medicated, and it nearly took my life and
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that's still happening, that's what needs to stop. I was not bipolar.
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I had four different personality disorder diagnoses. None of them were correct. I
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had, like I said, I had psychosis. Every single thing that I
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experienced was from trauma and nobody understood it, and so then they wrongly medicated
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me. I was on twelve or fourteen psychiatric medications at one time. That
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has to stop. We need to stop. There's no reason for that.
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Want to get to like Savannah, did you sit down and say let's start
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this program, this project. How did that come about? You know,
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I think, you know, we I don't know if it was that concrete,
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but after talking about our life story, you know, at first your
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reaction to our story of like, wow, I can't believe that this is
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happening. We kind of had that same aha that once I became an adult,
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we sat down and really started talking about the stories we had experienced,
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what we had been through, what we were seeing. You know, we
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were assisting people in recovery at the time, hearing their stories. But you
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know, I think what really pushed me over the edge was losing my first
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husband to malpractice and really seeing the same experience that I had as a child.
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You know, I witnessed all of this as a child, but because
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they had that childlike perspective, of course, I didn't totally understand the impact.
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But then once I saw it play out, you know, at almost
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thirty years old, and really recognized, wow, this impacted my husband's family,
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my family, my children. To really just see it all play out
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as an adult and feel powerless to that, I really tapped into the millions
26:08
of people out there that feel powerless to the system and they don't have the
26:14
resources or the wherewithal to be able to advocate for themselves, stand up for
26:18
themselves. And I don't know how else to say it. Something inside of
26:22
me came alive. I was born when that happened, where I was like,
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this is my purpose. That's why this happened to me. I got
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to tell everyone I know that there's a different way if we could look at
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it in a more trauma informed way of how trauma impacts our body, our
26:37
nervous system, our thinking, our belief systems, our behavior, our behaviors,
26:41
and really have the opportunity to be trained in that. I honestly feel
26:47
that thousands of people and thousands of lives would be saved and suicides would be
26:51
prevented. So how did one planet healing? How did you start that?
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Would you say, Mom, we got to do this, or Kimberly,
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did you say, so are we going to do this? It's been like
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percolating for the last decade, like probably you know, I was very psych
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psych injured from medication withdrawal, and so I was very sick for a long
27:19
time, and I thought, well, I'm never talking about trauma again because
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I was you know, a lot had happened. But then, you know,
27:30
as our life experience started to grow together and I started working with people
27:37
again, and then, you know, because really the concept of one Planet
27:42
Healing started in like twenty and fourteen, and it just has now finally now
27:49
that we've gone through what we needed to go through, because we were too
27:56
in mesh to be able to actually make anything happen, and as far as
28:00
an organization, and so it had to be this divide for now we've come
28:07
back together. Now we live twenty minutes from each other, and now is
28:10
when we're like, we know exactly what our message is and what needs to
28:15
happen and how and why. And so now we're finally in the last year
28:22
fully bringing one Plant healing to the forefront after about a decade. And we
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definitely did have a conversation after we lost Curtis of this cannot happen again.
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I think that was the final straw. Once we lost him, we were
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like, there's no more messing around. It doesn't matter if we have a
28:40
bad day or not. We're pushing through. We got to get this message
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out. And as soon as we started talking about it, the response that
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we have from people that we work with people who listen to our podcast.
28:49
It's infectious, and now we don't have a choice. We have to do
28:52
the same. It's like interject here, just to be clear. What happened
28:59
with your your past husband was he was fell victim to the system in a
29:06
sense, yes, and took his own life. Yes? Okay. So
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what is the goal over the mission of One Planet Healing to minimize the re
29:18
traumatization of those impacted by trauma? And we do that by providing alternative perspectives
29:26
of working with people other than the medical and diagnostic approach viewing people rather,
29:33
so our perspective is that people were not saying there's no such thing as mental
29:38
illness. We'd never say that. I've spent way too much time working in
29:41
the mental health system to say that. But people who have histories of complex
29:47
trauma have different experiences, and we need to be seen as one hundred percent
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having understandable reactions to what we're and people need to get educated on trauma so
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they can recognize all of this is trauma. I call it trauma response syndrome.
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All these diagnoses people are getting, they're they're they're not correct. What
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the disconnect is currently is okay, I see that you have this horrible complex
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trauma and you're bipolar. That's the disconnect. No, they're not bipolar.
30:29
They these are all trauma responses. And so we want to educate people.
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We call one of our goals is to minimize the power differentiation that inherently happens
30:40
in healing spaces. So we really change our language to to to decrease that,
30:47
to put the power back in the hands of the people who are being
30:52
served. Essentially, so you know we don't we are educators. We're educating
30:57
people on trauma. Are you know that? That's what we do, and
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we want to train other people to be able to do that so that the
31:08
people who need the help could take that information and utilize it in their own
31:15
lives. And so our mission is to train as many people as we can
31:22
in this perspective to help more people. So are you are you training uh
31:30
anyone? Education, educators, therapists, coaches, uh survivors, So anyone
31:37
can come to your site and get the education. And how are these uh
31:42
education with yours delivered? Are these is everything online? Yes? Everything will
31:48
be online right now? You know. The there will be school teachable,
31:56
there's stuff on teachable, but we wanted we would like to be able to
32:00
have opportunities to train in person as much as possible because that's much more dynamic.
32:07
But we hold courses that we trainings, webinars, those kinds of things
32:13
so that people can see online to maybe eventually come to us to train in
32:17
person. Our main what we would like the most is that people who have
32:23
lived experience who are called to assist others and are doing their inner work.
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That's the ideal trauma specialists. In my perspective, we want any so we
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call therapists, counselors, those kinds of things. We call those people.
32:42
Anyone who assists in the recovery of others would benefit from training in the trauma
32:49
response INDO a model under One Planet healing. So we want to change that
32:53
language to move away from anything that's treatment oriented, because people who who are
33:00
drawn to us, you know, they want a different language, they want
33:04
a different paradigm, they want a different perspective, and that's what we offer.
33:08
I mean, for me, what's very powerful about what you both are
33:14
doing is your relationship naturally and your ability to speak from different positions in that
33:24
relationship. That's very unique and very powerful, and the fact that you know
33:30
you had this divide and what caused that, and your ability to come back
33:37
and utilize a different lens through which to look at your relationship and then to
33:44
move beyond that or forward and start what you're doing, is so freaking amazing
33:52
and it's really inspiring, it really is. You know, I talked to
33:55
a lot of people and I haven't definitely not have have I had people on
34:04
like yourselves, who are who are doing this? Thank you very God.
34:08
Yeah, I'm very proud of ourselves. And I'm telling you it's a lot
34:14
of hard work, you know, it's a lot of hard work to be
34:17
able to take radical responsibility as a parent and say, you know, it
34:22
wasn't okay how you were raised, It wasn't okay your role, it wasn't
34:28
okay how I acted. None of those things were okay. You You are
34:31
the most important. I am the parent, you are the child, and
34:36
I need to be able to relate to you in that way. And I
34:39
do it without one thousand percent no shame. That's the key. I'm not
34:45
ashamed of it. Because trauma motivated my behaviors. Now I was for a
34:51
very long time, but That's another one of our main main goals and what
34:58
we're very passionate about is that we work with a lot of families where I
35:02
work with the parent or the parents, and she works with the child,
35:07
mostly adolescents, and we help them, you know, heal their their transgenerational
35:15
trauma because everybody gets heard and validated and then they can come together and we
35:21
can mediate and it's very powerful. That's that because when families heals society.
35:28
Yeah yeah, look Wan Wine down here. What's the best way for Bele
35:34
to get in contact with you? Both of our emails are on the website,
35:40
which is Kimberly Mays m A, I Z E. Kimberlymays dot com
35:47
and there's all kinds of everything that you could possibly want to know, is
35:52
there? Okay, and your podcast is a new generation podcast. We'll have
35:58
that linked up generation. This is our logo if anyone's looking, and it's
36:04
on Spotify, SoundCloud, and YouTube and we're all over social media for interest
36:08
in following along. Okay, we'll held those linked up. Look, you
36:12
two love to have you back. You are definitely a dynamic power duo.
36:20
It's amazing. I mean, come on, you're so freaking inspiring you.
36:25
Yeah, I appreciate you. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you for
36:30
saying that. But it is, it's it's it's what you're doing is amazing.
36:37
So look, thank you so much and we'll be in touch. Thank
36:40
you so much. Thank you,