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One Leg Up On American History with Tom McMillan; Learn About the LI 106th Rescue Wing Aiding Titan Submersible Search · OneLegUpAlex Media

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Here's your host, Alex GrITT, and welcome inside to this edition of the
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Alex Garrett Podcast Network. It's the one Leg Up feature once again, and
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right off the bat here I want to give one leg up to the one
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hundred and sixth Rescue Wing. Yes, they deserve a lot of kudos tonight
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as the West Hampton based New York National Guard transport plane is in the rescue
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search for the Titan submersible, you know, the submersible that have five people
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aboard it that has gone missing on an expedition to the Titanic wreckage. As
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ironic and as tragic as this is that the Titan submersible is meeting the same
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fate possibly that the Titanic is, it is good to see that there is
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a rescue wing from Long Island out here helping out the cause in the North
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Atlantic. One hundred sixth Rescue Wing. Give them a shout out at kudos
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today six crew members, one combat rescue officer and four parachute jumpers and two
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crew chiefs who's been on the scene since six thirty pm Monday night and has
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been searching and conducted search operations. According to Captain Charon Campbell, a spokesperson
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for the New York National Guard unit. Kudos to Michael O'Keefe of Newsday for
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picking up on this story. It's kind of funny. I mentioned a while
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ago that I wanted to enhance my observation skills because that's what my dad did.
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And sure enough, here was a Newsday two dollars fifty cents by the
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way, and I'm like, well, let me pick it up, only
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to tell you this great story about thee hundred and sixth Rescue Wing in a
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trying to rescue a very unfortunate situation. I mean, lives or at stake,
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hours are at stake here, but credit to the one hundred and sixth
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rescuing of the New York National Guard Transport, Plane Transport and New York National
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Guard. And that's where we start tonight on the One Leg Up with Alex
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Scare podcast because in just a couple of minutes, I'm gonna play you my
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conversation with Tom McMillan. Now Tom McMillan, Okay, he is actually just
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retired from the Pittsburgh Penguins after a twenty five year career in sports media,
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and he's talking about history. He's talking about the American flag. That was
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the basis of Francis Scott Keys stars making Will banner. So don't miss that.
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You don't want to miss that momentarily. But the other thoughts I had
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today was the top of Newsday, the lead story in Newsday about three point
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three billion dollars being shelled out. So a cable, let me get this
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right for you. A cable could go along Long Beach providing power that would
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hit upstate in New York and would empower upstate in New York. I should
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say yes, Kathy Hokel and Albany signing off on this bill for wind farm
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cable land that would make land vault and connect to the power grid and it
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would all go through Long Beach. I think it's kind of crazy. And
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they say this is to make energy goals of twenty thirty and then if they
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don't do this cable that would run twenty miles offshore or starting in Long Beach.
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Keep in mind, um they would mean they're called it's insanity. You
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talk about oceanography, This is insane. A three billion dollar project to send
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offshore energy to the Bronx and Westchester windmills. When when has that gone?
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Right? I ask you on the Alex Garrett Podcast Network a plan to bring
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Long Island power upstate using a miles long cable that would make Landbowl and Long
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Beach and run to a substation in Island Park and then what twenty miles more
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off. Sorry, it's insane. It's insane. So I hope, I
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hope someone has sense in Albany not to let this happen. I'm gonna cite
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that article on the description of the podcast tonight and when we come back,
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when we come back on One Leg Up with Alex Garrett. One man who
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has one leg up on history is Tom McMillan, and he's written a book
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about a two hundred and nine year old American flag that has been preserved right
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up intil twenty twenty three and hopefully beyond at the Smithsonian. He'll tell us
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all about it next on the Alex Skirrett Podcast Network. Well, you know,
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this show should really start with the star Spangled banner, because yes,
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last week was Flag Day. But I believe and maybe my next guys believes
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as well, that in a very patriotic month of June, you know it
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is flag Day, there are some patriotic moments of this month. But the
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conversation about Flag Day shouldn't just end on Flag Day. And I want to
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start there. When my next guess, Tom McMillan, who we'll get through
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his book in one second. But Tom, you've written about the oldest star
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spangled banner that's still around. Tell us what you've written the book. Our
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flag was still there. I was just fascinated about the flag from Fort mckennry
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that our national anthem. Everybody knows that our national anthem was written about it,
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but pretty much when I looked at it, I think all people really
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know where the okay flu that when the battle Francis caught Key saw it wrote
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a song. But that flag still exists two hundred and nine years later.
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It's at the Smithsonian, and I think people visited and we just off in
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the way history is. We just know a snippet of it. I thought
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I was looking into it. So this is a fascinating story of the journey
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of that flag. What I could do the most famous flag in US history
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in those two hundred plus years from Fort mckenry and Baltimore to the Smithsonian and
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all the ebbs and flows in between. And I gotta ask you, how
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did you track this down? I mean, you weren't around in eighteen fourteen,
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but how did you track down the remainder of this beautiful story here?
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Yeah? Well, he went to the Fort mckennry in Baltimore. They have
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good resources, the Smithsonian and DC was tremendous. They had about four hundred
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pages of research. I don't think many people have ever asked them for it.
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I was able to pour through that, and then I was really lucky
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and made it really personal Alex because I was able to track down some direct
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descendants of George Armistead, who was the commander at Fort McHenry and the guy
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who thought of the flag and actually took it home after the battle, kind
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of in violation of army regulations, but he took it home and it remained
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in the possession of that family for ninety years, which is one of the
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reasons that exists today. So those family members had some tidbits and photos and
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really interesting things that made it personal for me. It was a patriotic journey
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from me. That was cool. So Fort McHenry, Smithsonian National Archives and
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family descendants Toe and Tom McMillan. He is the author of Our Flag was
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still there, the Star spangled banner that survived the British and two hundred years,
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and the Armist of Family. Now we'll get to the Armist of Family
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a little more. But people may say, well, why are you doing
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this a week after Flag Day? But a story like this, it just
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shows that the American history continues even after one day a year, right absolutely,
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and you know, and we're patriotic in the fourth of July, and
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this battle at Fort McHenry when Key saw the flag was actually in September September
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thirteenth and fourteenth overnight he saw them warning the fourteenth. So this is a
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why you know, a spreading story, and the journey of the flag isn't
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just one day either. I Mean a lot of the book is how and
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why it survived. A rather incredible story. That so when you go to
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the Smiths today and you see it, I hope if people read it to
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appreciate everything that all the people who were involved to get it here over those
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those centuries that we can still look at it and it's really dramatic when you
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see it, when you see it in the museum, when you say spread
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out, no, no kidding, there are more than eight feet of material,
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aka the largest American flag during the War of eighteen twelve cut into small
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pieces. Now is it non American too? Would this be considered desecrating the
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flag by cutting into pieces? Give us your thoughts on well, we would
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have been yet part of the story. Again, there are different traditions in
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different centuries. We have to put ourselves back at that time. Yet for
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the for the listeners, the flag originally was thirty feet by forty two feet
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huge flag at the Smithsonian's now thirty by thirty four It's it's eight feet shorter.
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It's because in the mid eighteen hundreds, the Armistead ladies, his wife
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and his daughter would do something that would because as you said, would be
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considered sacrilegio to us today, but it was commonplace back then. They would
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cut off pieces of the flag and give them as souvenirs to battle veterans and
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maybe their families dignitaries in Baltimore, and over several decades they cut away eight
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feet. I was talking to one of the archivists at the Smithsonian and she
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said, yeah, you know, we would be a gas at that today.
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You could not do that today, But back then, in the eighteen
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hundreds, that's what you did. So they cut away pieces of the flag
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and some of those have been returned to the Smithsonian. They have some of
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those pieces available as well, but some of them are still in homes and
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little museums around the country. Tell us about that. Where does the flag
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live today? It's at the at the National Museum of American History in Washington,
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DC with the Smithsonian actually about fifty eight loose track of time. In
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the early sixties, Uh, the Smithsonian itself was just one museum back then.
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Now it's multiple, but it was just one museum and everything was getting
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cluttered, and they decided back then that they would create a museum just for
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American history, and they built it around the Star Spangled banner. Flag Hall
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was on the second floor and it's still there on the second floor. They
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did a massive renovation about fifteen years ago, in two thousand and eight.
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It's really dramatical the way they've done it because you have to take care of
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that textile that's two hundred and nine years old. They had to do a
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lot of work on it, but it's still there. So people, you
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know, in those museums in DC are free people go in every day,
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and I went down there several times. And sometimes you know, when you're
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write, you get writer's block. And I live in Pittsburgh, but if
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I got that, I would drive down to DC and go see it.
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And I was inspired just by looking at it and thinking, you know,
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nobody's really told this story beginning to end. I want to be the one
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who's able to tell the story. Well, it seems like this is the
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flag that the rocket drag Laire bombs versing in the air were reflecting. And
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I got to ask you, where are the descendants of Armistead that talked to
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you? How did you get this behind the scenes looking if you will,
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Yeah, well I did. I cold wrote them letters. I did some
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research. You can find a lot of things on ancestory dot com. And
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I just cold wrote them letters, explained to them who I was and what
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I was doing. And they were extremely gracious. Some folks in Philadelphia and
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some folks in Florida. They were excited that someone was talking about it,
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and they had me to their homes and they provided They were very very great,
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provide some photos for the book, provided some documents. Actually because of
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this Alex. One of the things I'm promised of a little side view here
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is because of the research, I was able to put some of them in
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touch with the people of the Smithsonian, and they have donated several of George
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Armistead's items now to the Smithsonian. They were in their home. He had
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he had in his home. I saw them in Philadelphia. They had his
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original US Army commissions that were signed by John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and
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James Madison. They were in their home and they had in eighteen sixteen painting
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of him and those things. Now, the Smithsonian was very excited and that
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the armist had decided, you know, we have these in our home.
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It's nice, but if we give it to the Smithsonian, we know it'll
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be preserved for all times. So the Smithsonian authenticated those pieces and they have
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now been donated down there. So it's kind of a cool little thing for
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me as an author. It wasn't the purpose of the book, but because
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of that I was able to put those two together, and those items are
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will not be available to the American public. I gotta ask you this because
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you know, we just kind of went out the gate here about the flag.
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But you are Tom McMillan, and for those who are just listening to
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the show for the first time, listening to you for the first time,
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give us some insight into who Tom McMillan is. You are a historian and
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an author. Yes, I actually just retired from my profession, which was
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in sports media and communications. Believe it or not, I was a writer
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and a broadcaster and then I worked as VP Communications for the Pittsburgh Penguins of
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the NHL for twenty five years. But history was always my passion and I
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my wife and I volunteer at historic sites and as I got on in years,
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I I thought I can write a little bit. I'll try to write
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some books. This is actually my fourth book. I wrote one on Flight
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ninety three, September eleventh flight that crashed I live in Pittsburgh, one hundred
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miles from where I live. In two on the Battle of Gettysburg. I'm
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a total Civil War nerd. But this one there's an Armistead family member who's
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famous at Gettysburg, who was involved in Pickett's charge. And by researching that
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book is when I really stumbled across some of this information and I thought,
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this is the kind of story that I want that. I want to do
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so the sports media and communications was my profession, but history and history writing
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is my hobby and will continue to be so. All right, low side
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note because my dad raised me in sports and we were at Lamieus what we
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thought was his last game against the Rangers back at the Igloo years ago or
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so, So there's a little history there, how about that? Yeah,
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so when you know about Penguins history, I got to ask you. I
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mean, twenty five years you saw them win the Cup with Crosby and we'll
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see they've kind of waned a little bit here, but are they going to
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be a force season? Yeah? Well it's you know, there's an ebb
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and flow of sports. They they have beaten back the curve because they made
15:07
the playoffs for sixteen straight years. His past year was the first year they
15:09
missed in seventeen years. That's almost impossible to do. You can't in the
15:13
salary cap area you were, It's really hard to do that. So just
15:16
that sustain the excellence for that long, I mean, you can't stay on
15:20
top forever. But Crosby and maltenal Tang are still here and there's a new
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GM, so they're gonna they're gonna try to retool and take another run.
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But it has really been a golden era and I was very privileged to have
15:31
a front row view with those Lemieux teams which I covered for the Pittsburgh Post
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Gazette, and then the Crossby teams, which where I was involved as an
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executive. To be part of those Stanley Cups one of some of the great
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memories of my life. Obviously, it's amazing that I brought you on talking
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about the American flag and here we are talking about the Penguins, but I've
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kind of had a bit of a history with them as well. And of
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course I'm a Cutching now and Pittsburgh the Pirates have a come along now this
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year as well. I'll love to see what happens there. Yeah, it's
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it's a good sports town. And it was easy if you love sports,
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which I did, and loved writing, which I did. It was easy
16:07
these getting motivated, they get into that kind of career. But alex I,
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when they would say asking this history stuff, I would say, for
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most people, sports is their escape from their real job, their escape from
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their life. And I say, when you work in sports, you need
16:21
in a permit and so history was my sports. That's what I did in
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my downtime, and it was a love of history for many many years before
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I started writing. That led to this and now in retirement, this is
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really what I'm doing. And to tell this story, you know, be
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able to tell this patriotic story. I try to, you know, to
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touch stories and maybe haven't been told before, and this was one that really
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hadn't been And I think you appreciate it too. As a history lover.
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At least half the funnest the research and learning, and then you have to
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sit down and write. But I learned so much myself writing this book,
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and I was I'm a pretty good student of history, and I was astounded
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at how little I knew about this flag story. So I thought, yeah,
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obviously, uh not every day you get to go onto an army base
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and a fort, So as Fort mckenry the only base you've been to?
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Oh no, I mean it's Fort McHenry is essentially a national park. It's
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part of the National Park Service. So I had visited there plenty of times
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before, just through my life. Whenever you're in Baltimore, I always went
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to Fort McHenry, never thinking I was going to write a book. So
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it's a it's a special place because the walls of the fort are still there.
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I mean you can stand there and look out on the water in Baltimore
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Harbor and almost you can see where key Ship was and imagine what was happening
17:38
that day. And the big flag flag flies over the fort. So it's
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uh, you know, it's a former military base, but now it's a
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you know, they call it a National Historic Site, but it's basically run
17:48
by the National Park Service. Uh, free to the public. There's no
17:52
charges. You go to Fort mcchenry as a historic site, though I know
17:53
they can't really change much. I mean I don't know we're getting into the
17:56
base or not. But are there relics from the base that you can and
18:00
see at the park. Well, the outer walls of the fort are still
18:04
there now selling them bad that have been prepared over the years. Again,
18:07
the fourth continued in existence after the War of eighteen twelve. It was it
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was pretty much a Union prison during the Civil War. The Federal Army used
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it and was used into the eighteen hundreds. Yea, the hour structure of
18:19
the fort is still there and they have the guns placed or replica guns obviously
18:25
placed where those guns used to be. So it's set up, it's set
18:29
up the way it looked during the battle in September of eighteen fourteen, that
18:33
the key would have seen from the water, So you really get it's kind
18:36
of an eerie feeling when you go there. They've done a great job of
18:38
preserving. They know where the footprint is of the fort, and so the
18:42
visitor center is off a little bit and you walk over and and and they
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always have a flag raising ceremony every day. The flag there, The idea
18:52
of the flag is really the focus of what they do with the program.
18:56
All right, well, I gotta ask you this. Do you know how
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they folded this this huge American flag at the end of the day, even
19:03
when there was no battle, because obviously that's a big part of the military,
19:06
is the folding of the flag, that taking it down at the end
19:08
of the day, type of ceremony it is. I'm not sure, I'll
19:14
tell you. I don't know the details about that. From the early eighteen
19:17
hundreds, my guess is they weren't as precise as they are now. I
19:21
think those I think those traditions and regulations developed over time. Remember the War
19:26
of eighteen twelve was only was only thirty six years after the declaration of independence.
19:33
I mean, we were still a really young country and here we are
19:37
at war with England again. So I think, you know, the country
19:40
was just in its embryonic stage, just both governmentally and traditional wise. So
19:44
I'm not really sure, but I don't think it was as precise back then
19:47
as it is now. It's certainly now they're very precise regulations of what of
19:52
what you would do with the flag. So this flag, it's part of
19:56
this two hundred and nine year old flag that he saw, I mean part
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it was the Armistead ladies in his destent that did protect it. But there
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were times, there were months when it was just rolled up and put us
20:07
at campus sacked. They didn't have the technology or the knowledge of flag preservation
20:12
that we did today, so they probably did some things that ended up causing
20:18
some damage, but they wouldn't have known that. They didn't have to informitate.
20:21
They did the best they could, and they certainly did well enough that
20:25
the flag survived. And then it's had two major rehab projects, one of
20:29
the early nineteen hundreds and one of the early two thousands, and now they're
20:32
convinced that it's gonna it's gonna exist for many, many decades, if not
20:37
centuries, into the future. All Right, I gotta ask you this,
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Tom, because obviously, um, you say, of documents and letters,
20:45
do we get to see the words of George Armistead and the plans of him
20:48
unfolding in this book? Oh? Absolutely, I get into his It was
20:53
a it was a distinguished military family. Armisteads had been in some sort of
20:56
the militaries. It's the year sixteen eighty pack back in Virginia. He and
21:00
three of his brothers were professional US Army officers. So yes, he took
21:04
over the fort in eighteen thirteen, a year before the battle. That's when
21:08
he ordered the flag. So we do the build up. The war is
21:11
going on, but it hasn't come down to Baltimore. So yes, that
21:14
whole summer they know that British are coming, they don't know exactly when.
21:18
Really, And then I was able to obtain his post battle report that he
21:22
wrote maybe ten days after the battle, where he describes what happens, and
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I quote that extensively. Sometimes you don't want to use long quotes in your
21:32
books. You want to write around it, but that I thought that stuff
21:34
was so important that I wanted to let his words tell that story rather than
21:38
mine. So those things, you know, we're available. It's a little
21:41
easier to do research now with the internet. You can go online, but
21:45
not a lot of people have seen them, and so I think some of
21:48
the information, even though it's two hundred years old, is really going to
21:52
be new to a lot of a lot of readers who again just no kind
21:55
of really top line of this story at Fort mckennery with Francis Scott Key,
22:00
Well, why I love this month is because not only a flag day,
22:02
but I believe it's the birthday of the Army. I mean, there's a
22:04
lot going on as far as patriotic and I feel like you you probably touched
22:08
on that as well. Yeah, the US Army was the Continental Congress formed
22:14
the Army in June of seventeen seventy five. That's when they appointed Washington in
22:18
the first General. So it all it all ties in um there's there's there's
22:23
a lot that happened this when you look at this period of Junior and going
22:26
to the first week of July was the July in the Battle of Gettysburg the
22:30
first week of July. There's really a lot of American history that has happened
22:34
in this three or four or five week period. Having said that, you
22:37
can probably take any five week period and then you know, we have a
22:40
lot of history in our country, but this is this is a I think
22:42
a patriotic time, and it was a nice time to focus on the flag.
22:48
You are a historian, Tell us about the other books you've written as
22:51
well, just to get people up to speed on the work of Tom McMillan.
22:55
Yeah, I worked the first book, but I took a shot to
22:59
try to do this. Lesten tore it could be successful. Was on flight
23:02
ninety three September eleventh flight where the passengers and crew fought back at Crashton Shanksville,
23:07
Pennsylvania, which and my interest was we were all affected by nine to
23:11
eleven, those of us alive at the time, but it was very I
23:15
mean, it's only a hundred miles from Pittsburgh, so I would go out
23:17
there and look at the site. And about ten years later I'd realized,
23:21
you know, there'd been a lot written about what happened in New York in
23:23
DC, but not much really written about Shanksville, and so I really wanted
23:27
to dig into that flight, and I talked to some family members and it
23:30
was quite an emotional journey to write that book. And that was my first
23:34
one. It's still for sale and they have it at the Flight ninety three
23:37
National Memorial. And then I ended up writing two books on the Battle of
23:41
Gettysburg. It just always I've been studying Gettysburg for thirty years. I went
23:47
there as a kid. One was on five. Actually, there were five
23:51
young men who grew up in Gettysburg and ended up fighting for the Confederate Army
23:55
in the Battle of Gettysburg. They were foreign avengers in their home time,
24:00
and nobody had written that it was. So I called the title of that
24:02
as Gettysburg Rebels. And then I wrote another get Armistead and Hancock. There's
24:07
an Armistead again. There was a Confederate general and a Union general, Lewis
24:11
Armistead and Winfield Scott Hancock, very good friends before the war. Not only
24:15
not only did they face each other in the war, they faced each other
24:18
and pickets charge at Gettysburg. And just writing I thought that then encapsulized the
24:22
whole history of the Civil War. You have these two guys who surved together
24:26
in the army as friends in the US Army, I bought together in the
24:30
Mexican War, and here they are in the most famous attack of the Civil
24:33
War, the Battle of Gettysburg, facing each other and they both were wounded
24:37
by the others troops. So I do try to dig into some of these
24:41
stories that in my old newspaper days would have been feature stories and expand on
24:45
those. So hopefully people who aren't even really into the total like deep history
24:51
of the Battle of Gettysburg, where the War of eighteen twelve, this is
24:53
a story that maybe you can enjoy. All. I gotta ask you this
24:56
because again I'm a sports guy. So you went from the ice ring,
25:00
the sport you know, the ring, the skating ring, to to maybe
25:03
Gettysburg reenactment. Is that kind of the vibe I'm getting from you. I
25:07
would they when and whenever the Penguin season ended, whether that was with a
25:11
loss or a Stanley Cup, the next weekend, I went to Gettysburg.
25:17
That was that was how I I uh calmed down from the season. So
25:22
yeah, I always uh it's it's only about three and a half hours from
25:25
where I lived. So it's it's an easy trip. It's always been a
25:29
big part of my life, and that's why it's kind of interesting at the
25:30
end now that I've figured out writing books, you know, to be able
25:33
to write about it and enjoy it that way, to do that research in
25:37
it, and it actually there's a there's a productivity to it, and I
25:41
want to keep going. But this book on the Flag just came out,
25:45
so I'm focused on this for a while and doing some interviews like this and
25:48
podcasts and book talks and and it's it's it's a fun part of it getting
25:55
out and meeting people and talk to them about this story again that a lot
25:57
of them tell me already heard that they didn't know a lot about. So
26:02
that it's it's rewarding to know that you're providing some information that maybe people who
26:06
are interested in history didn't know before. All Right, that leads me on
26:10
my next question. I love how you set that up because I got to
26:11
ask, and I've never really asked a historian this, but what does it
26:15
mean to you to preserve the American history through your writing? Oh, it's
26:21
it's it's I've had a great professional career, but this is the most rewarding
26:25
part of my life. You leave a little bit of yourself and I've always
26:30
loved American history so much. And now that you're able to make, you're
26:33
able to make It's a very small contribution, but you're able to make a
26:37
contribution and years from now people. You know, I always said sometimes in
26:42
the modern context, if we don't do the research now, we might not
26:47
be able to find those things in fifty years. So you're also thinking,
26:51
maybe no one would ever have looked at this star Stangle banner story. Maybe
26:53
no one would have looked at the armistated family. I just kind of stumbled
26:56
into it, and it is. It is very rewarding. You don't it's
27:00
a hobby for me. You don't do it. You might make a little
27:03
bit of money, that's not your motivation. You do it because you love
27:07
it and you can interact with people and see that they react to it.
27:11
That's the best part of this. It's it's having people read it and learn
27:15
and getting that feedback that that keeps you going. All right, Then I
27:19
got to ask you this, because obviously you've now covered Baltimore, You've covered
27:22
Gettysburg. What about the history of the steel city. Will you ever cover
27:26
your hometown? I don't know. People have asked me that to write book
27:32
of Pittsburgh. Who knows. I'm wide open. One thing I can't even
27:36
tell you, Alex though. There are always people and especially your friends and
27:38
family members, you know, when they know you write books, they why
27:41
don't you write about this? Why don't you write about that? There have
27:45
been a couple of ideas that I had that I started and I just didn't
27:48
feel it, even though it was interested in the topic. You really it's
27:52
a lot of work. It's fun, it's a hobby. I enjoy it,
27:55
but it is a lot of work. It's a lot of time,
27:57
and you have to love the story, and you kind of know that as
28:02
soon you're you're a little bit in, maybe a couple of chapters, and
28:04
I've started a couple of books a couple of chapters, then it's just it't
28:07
feel right. So I think that's part of it. You have to love
28:11
it, so you never know. The next book has never planned. I've
28:15
always allowed myself to stumble onto these these other books, so we'll see what
28:19
happens. There's still a lot of history here in Pittsburgh, but there might
28:23
just be something of of of traveling for research that intrigues me too, So
28:27
I'm I'm an open campus on Well, have you ever come to New York.
28:30
Let us know. We'd love to talk with you more. One last
28:33
thing, favorite rendition of the national anthem that I could play to end the
28:37
segment today. You know, I just there are so many of them.
28:41
So there have been so many great wines that the s forty events, you
28:44
know, the Whitney Houston people talks about that talk about it. I just
28:48
I like this straight, dramatic, patriotical I really do. And then people
28:52
have had great versions of it. But just it's the it's the song.
28:57
When I hear the music and I think about the flag, that's what inspires
29:00
me. So well, I know there are some famous ones. I just
29:03
like the you know, the basic, straightforward version of the anthem, the
29:07
one I the one that I grew Grewden Millwood love as a kid. So
29:12
I don't know if that's a that's a very exciting answer, but I just
29:17
it makes me. It makes me stand at attention whenever I hear Tom McMillan.
29:22
Thanks so much, and we'll definitely have you back on the Alex Garrett
29:23
Podcast Network,