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Why Everyone Is Fighting Over Bike Lanes · The Missing Middle Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: How did you become a left versus right thing, this for a form of transportation?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: The Trump administration literally called them DEI bike lanes.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that says everything you need to know.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: There are few are a few people who really hate bike lanes, but most people just don't care.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think we've seen this in elections in lots of places where politicians try to make it into a big issue.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: When looking into generational differences, one of the first things I came across was that younger people are delaying getting their driver's license compared to previous generations.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that really interesting, not just because it says something about like how differently young people are living their lives, but also it makes me think about cost of living.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Cars are typically the second biggest expense in people's household budgets.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: So for generation struggling with the cost of living, being able to live without a car can make a huge difference.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: But that raises a bigger question.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: If fewer young people are driving, are our cities and streets actually adapting to that?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Across Canada, street design has become a major political issue, showing up in municipal campaigns and increasingly pitting cities against provinces.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And at the center of a lot of those debates is one particularly contentious question.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what happens when we take space away from cars and we give it to bikes?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're talking about bike lash, the growing backlash against bike infrastructure happening across this country.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Demographics, hosted by Mike Moffitt and Kara Stern.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Tom Bappen runs the YouTube channel Shifter, which he describes as a channel about urban cycling, bike commuting, and the ways we get around our cities.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so grateful that he took the time to join us today.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Why do bike lanes make such a great wedge issue for politicians?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think because um urban cycling has been coded as this urban elite thing.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Bike lanes traditionally are in the urban areas.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're seeing a lot of governments that are voted in uh by suburban electorates.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just become sort of less culture war thing, I think, where we're pitting the suburbs against the inner city.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, those, you know, those sort of broad stereotypes don't apply to most people, but I think that's why it's become a good wedge issue.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like a visual thing that when someone sees, you know, an urban elitist riding a bike, they just sort of like it's an easy one to point to.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go over some of the places that are fighting about this in this country.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you have like Ontario, I think is the biggest one.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: We had a law that came in that said that um new bike lanes cannot take away a lane from cars without approval by the provincial government.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And they put through a bill that said that they intend to remove three arterial bike lanes.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then Alberta seems to be taking inspiration from Ontario.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're talking about wanting to create kind of a similar legislation to put city street design under provincial jurisdiction.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they created this tool where you can report your concerns about bike lanes, providing a multiple choice selection about what you specifically don't like about them.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, no option to be like, I like them or I don't care.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's just what don't you like?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's more.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Montreal's municipal race had a a lot of focus on the bike lanes as a major issue at play.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and Halifax, where the premier threatened to take over the city street design as well, just like Ontario, if they went ahead with a bike lane plan and city council backed away.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: These are just like the big ones, because there's other ones happening too.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is going on here?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, the one thing I'm fairly confident about is that none of this is based on transportation policy.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at what works, moving people around in cities, bike lanes have a lot of evidence in support of them.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: You actually see this in the original Ontario court case.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you read it, the judge's original ruling in favor of blocking the legislation was that there was so much evidence that bike lanes increase mobility, that they increase safety, that they're good for cities, that there's no concerns about increasing traffic congestion.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And on the other side, there was basically no evidence that the that bike lanes do increase traffic congestion, which was basically the only contention of the uh of the Ontario government.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the judge was actually quite scathing, saying, like, there's just so much evidence here and no evidence on the other side.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So clearly it's not being driven by uh transportation policy.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it really is a political issue.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: My sense is that it's an easy one for politicians to go after if they're counting on that suburban sort of rural electorate.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, if you talk to people in the suburbs, I think there are a few people who really hate bike lanes, but most people just don't care.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think we've seen this in elections in lots of places where politicians try to make it into a big issue.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I just think most voters are like, there's way more important things to worry about here.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why we're getting so fixated on this.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll see how this plays out over the next little while.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it does feel, to me, not about transportation policy, more about wedge issues, culture wars, all of that kind of stuff too, which also makes it really difficult to uh to combat, I think, as well.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can even look at the states and you see Donald Trump talking about bike lanes.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like it seems like it's all over the place.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have all these cities that are kind of have have been amalgamated.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So in order to run in Toronto successfully, you need to appeal to the kind of the suburban-minded people and the downtown-minded people.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there is kind of a tension between those two.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of wonder if this is inevitable when you have these big cities that that include the suburban areas as part of the city.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you read about Trump.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: He the Trump administration literally called them DEI bike lanes.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that says everything you need to know, right?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's how they're looking at that.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're not looking at them as transportation policy, it's it's culture war.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I absolutely think you're correct about uh the makeup of the city.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at the cities in Canada that have made the most progress in alternative transportation, in providing safe places for people on bikes to get, it's Montreal, Victoria, Vancouver.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the commonalities between them is that they have multiple jurisdictions made up, it's not one unicity, it's one multiple city.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: The places where you are seeing problems where provincial governments are stepping in are places like Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, which do have bigger municipalities.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is the amalgamation problem here, too.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think in practice, what happens is you have people living in cities who, a lot of whom don't own a car because they don't need a car.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: They absolutely understand the value of bike lanes.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: They're using them all of the time.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're the ones who are voting in these parties that uh understand that as well.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're offering different ways of getting around the city.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then that does tend to bleed out.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: You see this in Victoria, for example, which has made great progress in the last few years.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: That actually has been creating pressure on the outer municipalities to build more bike lanes because a lot of commuters are seeing the benefits of it too.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: But when you get to those outer rings, I think that's where people aren't seeing them.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of those people out there live with a car because they have to, because that's the only way of getting around out there, too.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just people living in very different lifestyles, uh, you know, car free or or or sort of car dependent.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where that tension's coming in too.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the makeup of the city is a huge part of this as well.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the responses to the court case that just came down recently in Ontario, that then, as you talked about, at first they said that they couldn't rip out the bike lanes, then it went to an appeal process.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that court said, yes, they can, absolutely you can.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter if it's based on data, it doesn't matter what, it doesn't matter what it is.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's provincial jurisdiction.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen some responses from like there's op-eds out there talking about how, you know, if you want change, don't go to the courts.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: You should be showing up to vote.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing I keep wondering is how you do that when like people in Toronto did vote for uh pro-bike lane candidates.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was passed through the city with city staff recommendations.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: The candidates last time in the mayoral election that were against bike lanes, like they didn't win.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you look at polling within places like Etobicoke, which probably has the most controversial bike lane, even there, it seems like from the polling I've seen, like it's not the majority of people who want them going away.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Most people want them to either stay or don't care or want to see more bike lanes.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why does this keep coming up?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if it's a winning policy in the cities.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you're right.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: The same thing happened in Edmonton.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the previous city council was very favorable towards bike lanes and passed a hundred million dollar uh investment in bike lanes, which was pretty pretty controversial in a city like Edmonton.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone thought it was going to be a huge election issue.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Most of those politicians who were most in favor of bike lanes got re-elected.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a winning strategy there either.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, I think most voters, it's just not a huge issue for them.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're more concerned about uh jobs and housing and all of those important things too.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they see this as sort of a distraction.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think it does for a certain type of politician, sort of like uh lets them sort of show off their bona fides that like I'm on the side of a specific electorate group and I'm gonna I'm gonna prove this by dumping on you know those woke urban bike riders.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh become a left versus right thing, this form a form of transportation.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know the history of it?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how did it get we get here?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's bizarre to me too, uh, because all of the sort of traditional conservative values of like self-reliance and uh efficient use of taxpayer money uh fits into cycling so much.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, taking responsibility for your own health.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Cycling just fits into that so well.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know how it is.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's less left and right and more urban suburban, which in a lot of our cities now in Canada, that's just the way the vote breaks.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Calgary never used to be like that.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: As we've grown, more and more of the city is voting that way.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that you have that urban-suburban split that most cities have also.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I I don't think it's so much like left and right, but it does feel like urban-suburban, which might be the sort of biggest difference in our elections these days, anyway, across a lot of issues.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did it get that way?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just the way our cities have developed and sort of broken that way too.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: When I hear from people who really don't like the bike lanes, I feel like the main thing I hear from them is nobody uses them.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: They are empty.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: If maybe the version that I'll get sometimes is they're only used by delivery drivers, that's it.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one's actually using them.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: But like we know there's data out there that shows that isn't true.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So why is it so prevalent?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because they feel empty.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh if you're not living downtown, if you don't see it all the time and you go for a drive, you know, you you you go into downtown occasionally, bikes are pretty small, they don't take up a lot of space.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think they aren't filled at some times.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not there at rush hour, they look pretty empty.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you could absolutely say the same thing about roads.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times they're not that full.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: In my commute here in Calgary, it's mostly on bike lanes and multi-use pathways.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And on the bike lanes, there's a little bit of there's traffic, not a lot most times, but there's also not a lot of car traffic on those roads as well.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like we they've chosen ones that aren't the main ones.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like there's a huge uh rush of congestion here.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think uh the data is there, like it's clear that they work.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I uh have a lot of sympathy for people who struggle with their commutes in their car.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people choose the car because that's their only option.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so if they're driving downtown and they have trouble finding parking, or parking is very expensive, or they do get stuck in congestion and they look across and they see an empty bike lane, I get why that would annoy you.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's an emotional reaction.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think like I'm wasting my time on this commute.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think most people make these decisions based on their emotional reaction to these things as well.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I also think, as this is maybe just my pet theory, like as a as a cycling community, I think we've done a pretty good job of getting the message out to decision makers and politicians who understand the value of bike lanes.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: We've done a pretty bad job, I think, of winning the hearts and minds of everybody in the suburbs, I think, too.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the marketing funnel where you've got to you have to raise awareness before you push people down to making a purchase.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: We've put all of our effort into making that purchase, and we have not put a lot of uh time and energy into raising awareness about the value of uh transit and uh uh cycling, specifically in those areas.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Transit more so so, but cycling less too.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think people who live really far away recognize that they're probably not gonna ride a bike.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they've probably never heard of a multimodal uh uh commute where you take your bike on the train and then you hit it up afterwards.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: When I go to public meetings around cycling, even with a politician who understands it and is advocating for what I think is a good policy of having uh uh transportation alternatives, I'm always amazed that people come up and it's like they've never thought about cycling as a transportation mode.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So many people still have never seen it.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you've never traveled to a city where there's great cycling infrastructure, if you live your life where a car is necessary for every transportation choice you make, you're just not getting it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to do a better job long term of spreading that message.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've also spent, uh, and I'm guilty of this too, too much of the time messaging around things that are around congestion and uh street life and urban vitality, and not enough around safety.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think where these things have really worked, I noticed this recently when I was in Seattle specifically, they're very on message when it comes to advocating for cycling lanes, and it's always about safety.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one example is a couple of years ago they passed the rolling stop law.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this law that allows cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: This has uh come up in lots of places and got rejected because there's this argument that, like, oh, this is terrible.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: We should all follow the same rules.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: In Seattle, they called it the safety stop, and they had all this evidence about that allowing this makes it safer, allows cyclists to clear the intersection more quickly.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean they're blowing stop signs, it means they're yielding at stop signs.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so the focus on safety, I think, is a really important one too.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I think we get off message a little bit and talk about all these other things.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think like keeping people safe when they're on their bikes is probably the strongest message.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But when you say safety, like the thing I'm wondering is like you're saying we need to get people on board, to win the hearts and minds of people who maybe would never experience it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you do that because that's where I think like when I see what the in Toronto the Bradford campaign is saying, let's put them in ravines, I think appeals to those kinds of people where they're saying they're they they're thinking of the idea of cycling as like an activity that you do for fun.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And going through a ravine sounds a lot nicer than biking on the main roads, but it doesn't work for most commutes.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's where you run into that issue.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you kind of square that?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's also part of the uh our messaging R as a broad cycling uh people is around commuting too much, too, I think, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: There is this uh there is this concept of the mobilities of care where offering transportation alternatives to get kids to school, get them to the soccer game, to take your your aging parents with you to uh a doctor's appointment.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: That is a great place for transportation alternatives as well.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: But we put a lot of focus on upper middle class white people getting to their jobs downtown.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where a lot of the focus on bike lanes are.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's about commuting.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: We often talk about bike commuting.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we, if we broaden it to be people who live downtown or live in more urban areas and it's a two-minute bike ride to get to the grocery store or to the pub to visit their friends, I think that's probably a better place to play.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: The reason that he's probably talking about cycling through the ravines is because that's a commuter play, right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you're out in the suburbs and you have to and your only cycling transportation choice is to commute, I mean, I'd like to, I'd rather ride through a nice park through a ravine than an urban street, where there's a theory.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds great, but it doesn't help the people who are living in those neighborhoods who need cycling to get around for everything else in their life rather than just commuting.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: The criticism of the data argument that I've heard, it tends to take the most optimistic version of reality.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So like it'll assume good weather rather than freezing cold or snow.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Realistically, most people don't want to bike in winter right now in the culture we have.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you make of that argument that the data is too optimistic and basing it not on the 12 months a year rather than just a few months where people, you know, the bike lanes are actually quite busy.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're talking to someone who wrote a book about winter cycling.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: So what I my answer to this question always is look at the winter data.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it totally mirrors the summer data in that as the infrastructure gets uh more connected and safer and is well maintained, the number of people riding in winter climbs at the same rate as the number of people who ride in summer rises.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're not the same.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's always a gap.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like usually if you have good infrastructure, you'll get about 30% of the people who ride in summer will also ride in winter.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: But as things get better, that number climbs, which tells me that it's not this core group of crazy people who ride in winter.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably never going to be uh the same as it is in the summertime, realistically.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, it is harder.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have clothing for it, you have to be prepared a little bit.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: But also people who walk in the streets is less in the wintertime as well.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: The people who use baseball diamonds and soccer pitches is less in winter as well.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean we don't build them?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an amenity we build for the summer.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take care, let's make it work in the winter as well.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll still get people using it and it will rise as it goes.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that so yes, it's lower, probably always will be, but it's still a great amenity for people who live in those neighborhoods.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: The Ontario Court of Appeal, which said that Doug Ford's legislation to rip out bike lanes could go ahead, had a judge explained that, like, doesn't matter what the experts say, the judge wrote something like that common sense would dictate that an additional lane would make traffic faster.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you could just think about it.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you have an extra lane, you're gonna get more cars able to go places.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that rings true for a lot of people.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I understand you can talk all day about like the induced demand and how, for those who don't know what that is, just the idea that you know you add a lane, more people go, oh, that's a good route to take, and then the more cars will end up there.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of the gist of it, I think.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: He described it as just a theory, and it doesn't feel right to people to think that like obviously you take away space, you're gonna get more congestion, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's it it does make intuitive sense.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: It also feels right, which is how people make decisions.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think it's an education piece too.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like induced demand is a counterintuitive notion.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And to really understand it, you have to think about it.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be taught, I think.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: We have to show it over and over and over again.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and there's tons of evidence that it's real, especially in Toronto, I think.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we had a perfect example with the 407 when they made a section of it free, the toll road, and how quickly it became as slow as uh any of the other highways, not just like what they I think people thought, oh great, this will be another highway and it's gonna move quickly.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it it was a very real life experiment that proved it quite well, but I don't know why we can't extrapolate from these things.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think out of that is just like long-term, we need to educate people.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's part of winning the hearts and minds is like having people understand that, you know, one more lane, bro is not gonna fix it.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: We need to look at different ways of doing it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: The same argument applies for transit.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it goes back to most people just don't spend that much time thinking about this stuff.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to get home to their families after work every day.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and when they get delayed, they get angry and they look around at what the culprit might be and they think, uh, we need one more lane or that bike lane's in my way.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a bit of uh thought.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we have to push things a little bit deeper to get people really understand the solutions here.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: When you have these provincial governments trying to override cities, which they are entitled to do in in Canada, that is their right.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a bit of a weird thing when you start thinking about like, okay, then I'm like, why are we voting for city council if anything they say could be overridden?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't we just make it like a part of the provincial government?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But, anyways, they are allowed to do it.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And as provincial governments step in the way that Ontario does, it makes it challenging for the municipal leaders to to push back because there's really only so much they can do.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wonder like the way that it's been approached here is they're trying to find solutions like, is there a way that we can keep a bike lane without taking away a car lane?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Can we are there innovative solutions here?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was wondering if there's any kinds of designs that you could point to that work quite well that maybe have uh more room for cyclists while also keeping space for cars, even when it's existing roads that you're trying to convert.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, in my more optimistic note moments, I think that having uh a second set of eyes on bike lane projects is not a terrible idea.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think as cities, sometimes we build terrible bike lanes and having a review process to make things better, to go back on them and rethink them and maybe adjust as we go.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I wish that was the motivator.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it is.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it is.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it is, but if that really was the motivator, then I'm okay with that.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do think if we can take a bike lane out that's not working and put it somewhere else that might work better, great.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's gonna happen.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that we're not great at building bike lanes in North America still.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like I see projects all the time where we seem to be reinventing the the wheel every time.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's a design from scratch.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I we had one put in here recently, and I was like, I I've I've ridden bike lanes in cities all over the world.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have never seen it designed like this.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, where did this come from?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a weird uh intersection design where a bike lane pops the cyclist up into the pedestrian space and you have to cross in the crosswalk and then sort of go back onto the street again.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: The first time I got onto it, I had to like stop.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: All the pedestrians were like, what is this guy doing riding in my space?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Get off.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think we need to get better at that kind of stuff as well.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think the road diet is uh a concept that doesn't get enough attention.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: You basically, if you have a four-lane road, you just squeeze everything a little bit tighter in order to make room for a bike lane.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this works in a lot of North American cities, especially the old the newer cities like out here out west, because we have so much space.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have so overbuilt our road network in a lot of cases.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: The lanes are super wide.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you take a little bit of space off of each lane, I do think you can squeeze a bike lane in there.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the other side benefit of that is that narrower lanes tend to slow drivers down, which the biggest complaint about people in so many communities is that there's too many speeders ripping through my neighborhood.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's a really interesting project in Edmonton recently in which there was an overbuilt road that was built in the 70s for traffic.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: The projection for traffic on that road was it never even reached half of what the projection was.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so the project went in there and uh it took some space away, not just for a bike lane, but it added some green space, added a row of trees.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: There are like something like 10 schools along this long stretch.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it meant that kids could walk to school more safely, they could ride their bikes more safely.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it really was a community project that touched so many things.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you talk to some residents along there, they're like, oh, it's so much better now.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I feel comfortable letting my kids play out front now because there is that buffer.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what was the conversation?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a bike lane project, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there was a bike lane in there, but there's benefits to it as well.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, thinking more holistically, I think would work.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to see cities be a bit more strategic in the way they plan their bike lane networks.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I find sometimes it's a lane here and a lane there, and wherever they can squeeze it in the the easiest, or wherever they can do it with the less parking, uh, they do that.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: If there was a network that everyone could look at, we could debate what the project's going to be over the next 10 years.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we're going to build it out.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do that.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then let's stop fighting over every bike lane.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just go do it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: That would be a better approach in my mind as well.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that was really interesting in Calgary when we put our bike lane network in downtown is that there was so much pushback against it.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: The city administrators got really creative in reallocating parking space.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like they found little nooks and crannies around where they could add parking where it wasn't before.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so the cumulative loss of parking was quite minimal too.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So having a little bit of like pushback so that we think more creatively, I don't think that's a terrible thing.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just wish that was the motivator instead of what seems to be, you know, a wedge issue and a culture war.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I guess if someone's coming into this discussion and thinking about like how can I get involved, they could learn a lot of it from your channel.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if anyone's listening to this who wants to get involved, I feel like Shifter is a great place to start for this.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: You learn so much from that channel.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for posting there and for taking the time to speak to us on the Missing Middle today.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for the plug and thanks for having me on.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for watching and listening.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Our producer is Meredith Martin and our editor is Sean Foreman.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have any questions about putting your kids on a bike in winter, you can check out the Shifter YouTube channel or email us at missingmiddlepodcast at gmail.com.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see you next time.