Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SAVANNAH GUTHRIE'S MOM MISSING: DAY 37

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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE'S MOM MISSING: DAY 37 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie
0:08
Speaker 1: missing day thirty seven. This as investigators say they are
0:14
Speaker 1: closing in on a breakthrough in the search for Nancy Guthrie.
0:19
Speaker 1: A vandalized utility box near her home now taking center stage,
0:24
Speaker 1: as tag tattoo and graffiti specialists way in on the
0:30
Speaker 1: search for the kidnapper. And also all that about data
0:35
Speaker 1: dumps forget it now, it's all on Google and Apple
0:41
Speaker 1: to save the day. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
0:45
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. This
0:47
Speaker 1: is a plea from the public to bring Nancy Guthrie home.
0:52
Speaker 1: They desperately want their mother home. Day thirty seven, a
0:57
Speaker 1: day none of us thought would happen. So many legal eagles,
1:02
Speaker 1: like myself, believe this case would be solved in Nancy
1:04
Speaker 1: Guthrie would behind by day thirty seven. We understand that
1:09
Speaker 1: investigators are stating that they are quote coming close to
1:12
Speaker 1: a breakthrough as a vandalized utility box takes center stage
1:18
Speaker 1: and something called tag tattoo and graffiti specialists coming into play.
1:24
Speaker 1: What can Google and Apple do for the Guthrie family?
1:28
Speaker 1: Now straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter.
1:32
Speaker 1: Tell me about the vandalized utility box. What happened Nancy.
1:36
Speaker 2: This was discovered, as you see, this just near Nancy
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Speaker 2: Guthrie's home and it happened around the time that she
1:45
Speaker 2: went missing. This is the box. It's in her neighborhood
1:48
Speaker 2: and it's very close by. You can see the vandalism.
1:52
Speaker 2: You can see it was hacked, it was torn up,
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Speaker 2: and this is something that doesn't occur naturally. This is
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Speaker 2: somebody intentionally, willfully did something to this box and could
2:04
Speaker 2: have caused major damage to those in the neighborhood with
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Speaker 2: regard to their cameras on their home for security, their
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Speaker 2: cell phones, and their WiFi. This box could damage everything.
2:17
Speaker 1: Well, you got to wonder. Let's just make a logical
2:20
Speaker 1: conclusion here. This is from our friends at WC Inc.
2:23
Speaker 1: By the way, when was it vandalized? Why is their
2:27
Speaker 1: special interest now? How close is it to Nancy Guthries' home?
2:31
Speaker 1: Straight out to James Bass joining us digital friendsic analyst
2:35
Speaker 1: expert witness with Evidence Solutions, Inc. There in Tucson. James Bass,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us tonight. James. A lot
2:45
Speaker 1: has been made of a so called signal jammer, a
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Speaker 1: signal jammer that many people believe was use. Let's see
2:54
Speaker 1: a shot of the protruding antenna from the porch guy's
2:59
Speaker 1: pop please control room, James. Much has been made about
3:04
Speaker 1: was a signal jammer used because neighbors are being questioned
3:08
Speaker 1: by the FBI too, in particular near her home, about
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Speaker 1: a interruption, a disruption in their WiFi service the night
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Speaker 1: Nancy goes missing. What if the utility box was the
3:23
Speaker 1: cause for the blackout and what was protruding from the
3:27
Speaker 1: porch guy's pocket actually was a walk you talk? You
3:30
Speaker 1: to an accomplice? Now hold it. You're the digital expert,
3:34
Speaker 1: not me. Let me try to phrase this in the
3:36
Speaker 1: proper vernacular. Would the utility box having been attacked throw
3:43
Speaker 1: out Wi Fi to Nancy and her neighbors? And can
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Speaker 1: we prove that or deduce that from the fact that
3:51
Speaker 1: the neighbors had the blackout? And the guy walks up
3:56
Speaker 1: apparently let's see him walk up and he's like, whoa
3:59
Speaker 1: the camera working? What it's like he didn't expect the
4:03
Speaker 1: camera to be working? And then he has to backtrack
4:06
Speaker 1: and try to cover it. He's like, what, maybe I
4:08
Speaker 1: can beat it to death, then he tries to cover
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Speaker 1: it with foliage. Did he blow out the utility box
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Speaker 1: and then got the big surprise when maybe he saw
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Speaker 1: the camera blinking or the lens moving, or some acknowledgment
4:25
Speaker 1: of motion sensor working. What do you think, James Bass? Possible?
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Speaker 1: Not possible as presented.
4:32
Speaker 3: I don't believe it's possible. The utility box that was
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Speaker 3: shown appears to be some sort of telephone signal box
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Speaker 3: switching box that would carry a telephone signal, not necessarily
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Speaker 3: your fiber optic or WiFi.
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Speaker 1: Or okay, hold on just a second, Bass, look at
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Speaker 1: this picture. Let me see all those wires from our
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Speaker 1: friends at WC and see. How can you look at
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Speaker 1: that and tell me what kind of wire it is?
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Speaker 1: They all look the same to me. How do you
5:06
Speaker 1: know that's a phone wire?
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Speaker 3: Just pretty much based on the setup and the connections
5:11
Speaker 3: you're looking at what is typical for a telephone, landline
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Speaker 3: wiring box or other data infrastructure. If it had been
5:21
Speaker 3: destroyed or in some way altered, the connection would not
5:25
Speaker 3: have been intermittent. It would have been out completely. If
5:29
Speaker 3: you sever a fib or optic cable, there's no plugging
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Speaker 3: it back in once it's broken, it's broken until it's repaired,
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Speaker 3: and there would have been a consistent outage that we
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Speaker 3: would have known about.
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Speaker 1: Okay, that just made a lot of sense if in
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Speaker 1: fact those are phone wires. And I'm not altogether convinced
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Speaker 1: that you can look at them from two thousand miles
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Speaker 1: away and tell me they're a phone wire. Convince me
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Speaker 1: that's a phone wire.
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Speaker 3: Just looking at the subs, like I say, it's not
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Speaker 3: a good picture that we There's nothing that's been released
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Speaker 3: about the particular infrastructure that would be consistent with a
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Speaker 3: with a telephone service junction box. There's there's a lot
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Speaker 3: of wires involved in.
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Speaker 1: Well, why are they calling it a utility box as
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Speaker 1: opposed to a phone box or is it all.
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Speaker 3: One in the same the telephone utilities?
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Speaker 1: Thank you, James Bath. They did not teach this in
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Speaker 1: law school. This is from our friends at wc NC. Well,
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Speaker 1: there's another issue straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons. Joining US
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Speaker 1: Director Operations USP, a nationwide security he leads an entire
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Speaker 1: team of people dedicated to finding missing people all around
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Speaker 1: the world. Former marine Iraqi war That says it all. Fitzgibbons.
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Speaker 1: Another thing, what would be the motive for cracking open
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Speaker 1: a utility box like that. There's nothing to steal, or
6:51
Speaker 1: is there? I mean you'd wonder why people would go
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Speaker 1: on to abandoned houses. There's nothing to steal, right, Well,
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Speaker 1: they're in there getting copper wiring, which is very expensive.
7:01
Speaker 1: So what would be in a utility box to steal?
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Speaker 1: Why crack it open unless you're trying to affect the
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Speaker 1: Wi Fi or the phone service in the area, As.
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Speaker 4: James Bass just aptly pointed out, if that line were
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Speaker 4: cutting the Wi Fi the data coming in from.
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Speaker 5: The street to the house, there would be a persistent outage.
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Speaker 4: This would have been something that would have a utility
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Speaker 4: team would have had to come out and repair. Okay,
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Speaker 4: so what we're looking at here is likely some kind
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Speaker 4: of vandalism that took place with no specific motive related
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Speaker 4: to the Nancy Guthrie abduction.
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Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me follow through with that. Brian Fitzgibbons,
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Speaker 1: you said no specific motive related to Nancy Guthrie's investigation.
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Speaker 1: What about any motive at all? What's the motive for
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Speaker 1: cracking it open?
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Speaker 6: Yeah?
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Speaker 4: I mean this does look like a telephone box, just
7:54
Speaker 4: the size of those, you know, wires and cables in there.
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Speaker 5: Hey, could the motive be to take out phone service?
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Speaker 4: You know that's certainly not going to do anything to
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Speaker 4: disrupt internet or sell service.
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Speaker 5: In twenty twenty six.
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Speaker 4: I can't imagine that that's a high value target in
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Speaker 4: relation to an abduction.
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Speaker 1: Case unless someone tried to. Hey, guys, big thank you
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Speaker 1: to WC and C for that video. Unless this Joe
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Guys, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of
8:32
Speaker 1: a hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But
8:36
Speaker 1: for our purposes, he's a forensics expert and a death
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Speaker 1: investigator with literally thousands of death scene investigations under his belt.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Unless I mean there's nothing to steal, why
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Speaker 1: crack it open? So let's think this through. Could the
8:54
Speaker 1: prop have thought it would disrupt the Wi fi and
8:57
Speaker 1: then have to back up with a Wi Fi Because
9:01
Speaker 1: we know there was a disruption around the time she
9:04
Speaker 1: goes missing, and you know one house, m two houses coincidence,
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Speaker 1: three houses pattern, so we know something was going on
9:14
Speaker 1: with the Wi Fi. We know it was at the
9:17
Speaker 1: time Nancy was kidnapped from her home. Is it possible
9:21
Speaker 1: the perp vandalized that in an attempt to disrupt Wi
9:25
Speaker 1: Fi and then backed it up with a jammer? And
9:28
Speaker 1: if so, what forensic evidence could be obtained from the
9:34
Speaker 1: box or maybe even the wires inside. That's going to
9:36
Speaker 1: be tough, Yeah, it would be.
9:38
Speaker 5: You know.
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Speaker 6: One of the interesting things about that box the Nancy
9:41
Speaker 6: is that when you're working a scene have to assess
9:44
Speaker 6: the reality of the evidence also status of the is
9:47
Speaker 6: that box everybody's saying, well, it could have proclimated the
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Speaker 6: time in which Missus Guthrie went missing. I want to
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Speaker 6: know more information about the physical standing of the box
9:56
Speaker 6: and what I mean by that, Are there any prime
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Speaker 6: marks on that box that might indicate some type of
10:02
Speaker 6: particular tool that was used to open it? And also
10:05
Speaker 6: one of the things that we see when we work
10:08
Speaker 6: cases involving tool marks to kind of age age of
10:12
Speaker 6: break in is we'll look for like oxidation or rust
10:15
Speaker 6: that shows up on particular areas, like how long has
10:18
Speaker 6: this thing been pride open? And also going back to
10:21
Speaker 6: whoever it administrates that box, you know, like whether it's
10:24
Speaker 6: a phone company or local utility company, when was the
10:28
Speaker 6: last time they made a pass around that box? Who
10:30
Speaker 6: made notes about that box? And then when you get
10:33
Speaker 6: into the interior of the thing, it looks like just
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Speaker 6: a mass of like wires going everywhere, disordered multicolored spaghetti
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Speaker 6: if you will. Does somebody actually go in there with
10:45
Speaker 6: snips and try to cut wires? Again? Another interest, interesting
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Speaker 6: area relative to tool marks and were they specifically targeting anything
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Speaker 6: in there? And that goes to the mind of the person.
10:56
Speaker 6: What kind of knowledge or level of knowledge did they
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Speaker 6: have about this? One more thing, do they have anybody
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Speaker 6: in this area that the police are familiar with that
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Speaker 6: goes around burglarizing areas and they attack these kind of boxes.
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Speaker 6: Do you have anybody that has a certain set of
11:12
Speaker 6: burglary tools that might engage in this behavior. So there's
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Speaker 6: a lot considered just with the box itself.
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Speaker 5: You know.
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Speaker 1: Another thing regarding motive, Joe Scott Morgan, why does anybody
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Speaker 1: do anything? I mean, in my mind, I would look
11:25
Speaker 1: for a logical motive. You go into a home to steal, rape,
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Speaker 1: rob that's a reason for breaking in, not a legal reason,
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Speaker 1: but a reason. Why would somebody crack open a utility
11:38
Speaker 1: box for what? There's nothing to steal. I guess the
11:40
Speaker 1: same reason people frow stones and knockout street lights or
11:46
Speaker 1: knockdown stop signs. I guess for the fun of it.
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Speaker 1: I don't understand that motivation. So that's not a motive,
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Speaker 1: a typical motive that we would look for under the law.
12:00
Speaker 1: But you know, it's like joy writing just for the
12:03
Speaker 1: hell of it. I like what you just said about
12:06
Speaker 1: had other utility boxes been attacked regarding getting fingerprints from this,
12:13
Speaker 1: regarding your thought, were any of the wires severed or cut,
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Speaker 1: which really would indicate someone trying to disrupt Wi Fi
12:26
Speaker 1: or sell service? How would you look for that in
12:29
Speaker 1: that big tangle of cords, And how can you get
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Speaker 1: prints on the outside of the box and more specifically
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Speaker 1: on the inside of the box.
12:36
Speaker 6: It would be very difficult. Just let me give you
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Speaker 6: an idea. If people at home will think about, say
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Speaker 6: you're you're holding a large screw driver in your right hand, okay,
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Speaker 6: and you want to pop open this box, and you're
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Speaker 6: not wearing gloves. One of the things that you would
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Speaker 6: do is say you would take like your left hand
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Speaker 6: stick stick the screw the screwdriver into into the panel
12:57
Speaker 6: and try to pry it open. And one things people
13:00
Speaker 6: don't think about perpetrators in particular. We have all the
13:03
Speaker 6: time in the world to examine these areas. Perpetrators trying
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Speaker 6: to go go go, go go go. As they're trying
13:08
Speaker 6: to leverage this thing to pop it. They're touching and
13:11
Speaker 6: contacting these areas. Only problem with that is that the
13:15
Speaker 6: X area of this thing is not very well protected,
13:18
Speaker 6: so fingerprints might degrade in this area depended upon the
13:22
Speaker 6: amount of time they've been there.
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Speaker 3: You know.
13:25
Speaker 6: We work on what are called fatty lipids that transfer
13:28
Speaker 6: the friction ridge imprints and give us a negative image
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Speaker 6: of the imprint or the fingerprint on the surface there.
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Speaker 6: So and inside that tangle. Nancy, good luck with all
13:39
Speaker 6: of that. I think that it would be very, very
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Speaker 6: difficult to raise a print in that area. I'd be
13:44
Speaker 6: more interested probably in tool marks on any of those areas,
13:48
Speaker 6: and have they been clipped away with some kind of
13:51
Speaker 6: specific tool.
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Speaker 1: Wow, Jackie here in the studio just had a great idea.
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Speaker 1: We're all trying to figure out what would be a motive.
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Speaker 1: She says that there are copper wires in the utility boxes.
14:04
Speaker 1: That's money. That's a lot of money. People vandalize all
14:10
Speaker 1: the time to get copper. That said, investigators stating that
14:15
Speaker 1: tonight they are very close, as they say, to a breakthrough.
14:21
Speaker 1: What breakthrough, that's all we're learning does have anything to
14:25
Speaker 1: do with this utility box crime stories with Nancy Grace
14:38
Speaker 1: speaking of the jamming, a lot has developed over the weekend.
14:43
Speaker 1: Straight out to James Bass. James, I'm really overwhelmed with
14:50
Speaker 1: your analysis regarding Google and Apple. I kept saying, day one,
14:55
Speaker 1: get a data dump. Get a data dump, which would
14:58
Speaker 1: be the fi's cellular analysis survey team cast getting all
15:04
Speaker 1: the information of cell phones, or not just cell phones,
15:08
Speaker 1: nav systems, you connects in cars, iPads that may be
15:14
Speaker 1: in the car that are trying to connect any device
15:17
Speaker 1: while it may not be hooked in to Wi Fi
15:20
Speaker 1: that has quote touching Wi Fi as it goes by,
15:23
Speaker 1: you know, when you're trying to connect. Let's just say
15:25
Speaker 1: at the airport, all of these different Wi Fi, you
15:29
Speaker 1: see them and you may try to connect to them.
15:33
Speaker 1: If you do connect, you touch. So there's not just that,
15:36
Speaker 1: But you're saying Google and Apple may very well save
15:43
Speaker 1: the date. Google's already saved the date once by their
15:47
Speaker 1: scratching technique where they go from day ten to nine,
15:53
Speaker 1: to eight to seven to six five they find the
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Speaker 1: porch guy. It's very very delicate because you don't want
15:59
Speaker 1: to erase day five when you're scratching off day six.
16:03
Speaker 1: That said, you believe Google and or Apple can help
16:07
Speaker 1: in a very very different way. Try to dummy down
16:12
Speaker 1: for me and explain it again, they didn't teach this
16:14
Speaker 1: in law school.
16:15
Speaker 3: When you can get a hold of the cell tower
16:18
Speaker 3: dumps that everybody is familiar with, that's going to give
16:21
Speaker 3: you a list of all the devices that have connected
16:25
Speaker 3: or touched that tower essentially, and once you establish a
16:28
Speaker 3: pattern and you narrow down your focus, you're able to
16:32
Speaker 3: identify one, two or three specific devices with that, then
16:38
Speaker 3: you're going to try to identify this person a little
16:40
Speaker 3: bit further. Once you can do that, you can go
16:43
Speaker 3: to Google and ask for what's commonly referred to as
16:47
Speaker 3: a Google takeout a GTO, and it's information that Google
16:52
Speaker 3: collects about you as a user that's freely available to anyone.
16:57
Speaker 3: You can download drown data and see what's there, But
17:01
Speaker 3: of particular interest would be the location data. As part
17:05
Speaker 3: of their service, they offer Google Maps and location services,
17:11
Speaker 3: and in the background, they're going to drop a location
17:14
Speaker 3: pen sometimes every five to thirty seconds.
17:19
Speaker 1: What do you mean in the background.
17:21
Speaker 3: You it's not something you're asking it to do. It's
17:25
Speaker 3: something that's done completely in the background. The user never
17:29
Speaker 3: sees it, and most users don't even know that it's happening.
17:34
Speaker 3: But that data is collected and it's retained forever. Until
17:38
Speaker 3: you go in and tell them to delete that information,
17:41
Speaker 3: it will forever reside.
17:43
Speaker 1: Okay, you totally freaked me out when you told me
17:46
Speaker 1: this example. James Guys James Bass is a digital forensic
17:53
Speaker 1: analyst and expert witness with Evidence Solutions, Inc. There in Tucson.
18:00
Speaker 1: When you said that, for instance, Google and Apple are
18:03
Speaker 1: tracking me to the extent or all of us. If
18:07
Speaker 1: you park your car and walk into Walmart, they go, oh,
18:11
Speaker 1: she parked your car. Explain that. When you told me
18:14
Speaker 1: the first time, I was too busy scribbling notes to
18:17
Speaker 1: even understand what you're saying. And how can this help
18:20
Speaker 1: me find the kidnapped.
18:21
Speaker 3: With the background location services. I'll give you a for instance,
18:26
Speaker 3: I was at a task force doing some counter terrorism work,
18:30
Speaker 3: also being closed nondescript building. It was a top secret
18:35
Speaker 3: sci skiff a building you can talk about on secret information.
18:43
Speaker 3: And the facility we were at was not advertised. There's
18:46
Speaker 3: no sign its existence was top secret. But because I
18:52
Speaker 3: had a phone years later, I was able to go
18:56
Speaker 3: back and tell you every day when I left my house,
19:00
Speaker 3: the route I took to get to work, where I
19:02
Speaker 3: parked my car, and where I left my phone, And
19:06
Speaker 3: that was done completely in the background, without the input
19:10
Speaker 3: or user.
19:11
Speaker 1: Of the device, James, including the top secret location right
19:16
Speaker 1: there in the parking lot front door of the building. Well,
19:19
Speaker 1: I guess the Chinese know that now, thanks for blurting
19:22
Speaker 1: it out. That said, what if the pump hass the.
19:27
Speaker 3: Phone turned off, Well, if the device is turned off,
19:30
Speaker 3: we're not going to get anything from it. If the
19:32
Speaker 3: device was on but not being used, you know, if
19:36
Speaker 3: you had the device powered on, threw it into the
19:38
Speaker 3: floor of the car or put it in his armrest
19:41
Speaker 3: and was driving, then you would If you can identify
19:44
Speaker 3: the device, and if they were using the Google Location services,
19:49
Speaker 3: if that was available and enabled, then you're gonna be
19:53
Speaker 3: able to go back. Once you identify them, send a
19:56
Speaker 3: search warrant to Google for that information, and you'll see
20:00
Speaker 3: their entire life, everywhere they park, where they live, you know,
20:06
Speaker 3: if you're driving walking, they make these assumptions and they
20:10
Speaker 3: use is made in the background for targeted advertisements to
20:14
Speaker 3: send you to what are considered your bylocations. So that's
20:20
Speaker 3: what it's used for. But on the investigative side, we
20:23
Speaker 3: can timeline and geolocate somebody to within a three to
20:29
Speaker 3: ten meters radius with a sub second timestamp, we can
20:32
Speaker 3: put you there to the millisecond at a particular time
20:35
Speaker 3: and day.
20:37
Speaker 1: What are the phones in airplane mode?
20:39
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, if it's an airplane mode, it's going to disable
20:42
Speaker 3: all of the antennas. It's supposed to disable your GPS,
20:46
Speaker 3: anything that can transmit or receive, it's supposed to disable that.
20:52
Speaker 3: Essentially an airplane mode. Yourself is a music player.
20:56
Speaker 1: What if the parts we're using your burner phone. I
20:58
Speaker 1: know all these questions are elementary to you, like they're
21:01
Speaker 1: coming from a fifth grader, But again they did not
21:04
Speaker 1: teach us at law school. What if the prop had
21:06
Speaker 1: a burner phone, the burner phone shows up on the
21:09
Speaker 1: data top, then what do we do with that?
21:12
Speaker 3: A burner phone, as people believe to exist, really is
21:17
Speaker 3: not the same thing. Most people in the early part
21:22
Speaker 3: of cellular phones you could go get a completely anonymous
21:25
Speaker 3: phone and use it and be fine. Nowadays nothing's really anonymous.
21:32
Speaker 3: An Android or an Apple phone require an email to
21:35
Speaker 3: register and use their services. If you're getting a prepaid phone,
21:39
Speaker 3: you have to pay with a credit card which is
21:41
Speaker 3: attached to a bank. There's all of these safeguards that
21:44
Speaker 3: are put in place that hinder being anonymous.
21:50
Speaker 1: Will Google put up a fight to give this tracking information?
21:54
Speaker 3: Not with the search war? Absolutely not.
21:58
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So what can you tell me about Apple?
22:01
Speaker 1: How could they help Apple?
22:04
Speaker 3: Everyone collects the same information. Apple spends a little bit
22:08
Speaker 3: more time saving it on your phone so that they
22:11
Speaker 3: don't have to be responsible for turning it over anybody.
22:14
Speaker 3: But they also save your routes and your maps and
22:18
Speaker 3: your map searches. So if you enable it, even if
22:22
Speaker 3: you have an iPhone, if you're using Google Android, you
22:26
Speaker 3: know their maps or location services. If you download that app,
22:30
Speaker 3: then it's still going to be saved with Google. It's
22:34
Speaker 3: right now. Google's mapping service is one of the primary
22:36
Speaker 3: ones everyone uses, and I would strongly suggest they go
22:40
Speaker 3: after this information once identify the person.
22:43
Speaker 1: Well, James, let me ask you this, what can't Apple
22:45
Speaker 1: give me that Google cannot give me nothing.
22:49
Speaker 3: Nothing that they're all collecting. In general, they collect the
22:51
Speaker 3: same data Google, they save more. They focus a little bit,
22:57
Speaker 3: I'm sorry Google. Apple focuses a little bit more on
23:00
Speaker 3: anonymity and keeping your data on your device. Book Once again,
23:05
Speaker 3: once you identify that person obtaining the device is you
23:09
Speaker 3: know it's going to be your next step, get the
23:11
Speaker 3: phone and then get the data done.
23:13
Speaker 1: Straight out to Joseph got Morgan, Professor forensics and death investigator.
23:19
Speaker 1: What do you believe? I mean, it's very cryptic that
23:22
Speaker 1: one of the investigators inside the investigation stated that they
23:27
Speaker 1: are close to a breakthrough. I mean it's got to
23:32
Speaker 1: be digital. I think it's digital. It could be because
23:36
Speaker 1: of that mixed DNA that was found in the home.
23:38
Speaker 1: Maybe they're getting closer to that. It's called stranger DNA.
23:41
Speaker 1: It's not anybody connected to her, related to her that
23:45
Speaker 1: works for her is typically in her home. It's digital,
23:48
Speaker 1: it's DNA. Or maybe it's good old fashioned police work
23:53
Speaker 1: like hey my neighbor blah blah blah, and a some
23:59
Speaker 1: type of eyewitnesses come forward. I don't know what it is,
24:05
Speaker 1: but if you were on this team, what do you believe?
24:09
Speaker 1: They should be doing right now. In addition to what
24:13
Speaker 1: Bass just said, getting about three inches up Google and
24:16
Speaker 1: Apple's tailpipe, I.
24:17
Speaker 6: Could listen to bass talk all day long while it
24:19
Speaker 6: really breaks it down now in simple terms, I love that.
24:23
Speaker 6: As far as from an investigative perspective, I think they've
24:26
Speaker 6: been trying to unspool this DNA information for some time.
24:29
Speaker 6: We've gotten little bits that have come out about the
24:33
Speaker 6: mixture and about it seems as though that's coming to
24:37
Speaker 6: a dead end. Of course, we don't know what else
24:39
Speaker 6: they have at this point in time. However, I have
24:42
Speaker 6: to say, Nancy, as we stand right now, I would
24:46
Speaker 6: be leaning probably into the digital data that we're talking about,
24:50
Speaker 6: because no one travels this world without one of these
24:54
Speaker 6: damn millstones that we have around our electronic neck, you know,
24:59
Speaker 6: with these phones, and so at some point in time,
25:01
Speaker 6: they're going to have tagged these people or tag somebody
25:04
Speaker 6: in that area. I think that they're doing a deeper dive.
25:07
Speaker 1: They're calling in PA, please, I agree with you. But
25:10
Speaker 1: the possibility of a walk you talkie suggests to me
25:14
Speaker 1: that they turn their phones off. But let's just pretend.
25:17
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend somebody had a cell phone on. Somebody
25:21
Speaker 1: had a you Connect. I don't know what you drive,
25:23
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, but our beat up minivan has you Connect
25:28
Speaker 1: in it, so I guess that would work. A NAV
25:30
Speaker 1: system would work. You just heard Best talking about the
25:35
Speaker 1: location data. It could be a number of things, not
25:40
Speaker 1: a walkie talkie. That will not work unless it's somehow
25:43
Speaker 1: hooked into a cell phone. Some of them are. But
25:47
Speaker 1: that suggests a cell phone was turned off. So let's
25:51
Speaker 1: pretend the cell phone was turned off. Let's go with that.
25:54
Speaker 1: What avenue would you travel now if the cell phone
25:58
Speaker 1: had been turned off? Forget all data.
26:00
Speaker 6: Well, what I'm thinking about right now, and I've been
26:03
Speaker 6: thinking about it for some time, it's relative to any
26:05
Speaker 6: kind of assets that the police have in this area,
26:08
Speaker 6: all the locals, anybody that's involved in any kind of
26:11
Speaker 6: nefarious activity, relative to crimes against persons. All right, And
26:16
Speaker 6: when I say crimes against persons, I'm not talking about
26:18
Speaker 6: regular old burglary. I'm talking about people that do strong
26:22
Speaker 6: arm robberies. They're not afraid to go into homes, get
26:24
Speaker 6: into people's spaces. Because right now, this is going to
26:27
Speaker 6: be a matter of, like you said, good old fashioned
26:29
Speaker 6: police work, where they're putting pressure points along the way,
26:33
Speaker 6: and also couple that with any potential that this reward
26:38
Speaker 6: money is going to be raised. What they're trying to do, Nancy,
26:42
Speaker 6: I think, is lean on every potential lead that they
26:46
Speaker 6: have or person that might roll over on somebody out there,
26:50
Speaker 6: because they've turned the pressure up significantly. And here's the
26:53
Speaker 6: other thing, Nancy. You know, we hear a lot about PEMA.
26:57
Speaker 6: We don't hear a lot about the FEDS. And as
26:59
Speaker 6: you well know, the FEDS are notorious for keeping their
27:02
Speaker 6: mouths shut. And there's no telling what kind of assets
27:06
Speaker 6: they're bringing to bear because they have so much in
27:09
Speaker 6: their infrastructure that they can use everything from electronics to
27:13
Speaker 6: gain information, Nancy, that they can press, press, press, and
27:17
Speaker 6: I think that that's probably the angle they're working right now.
27:20
Speaker 1: Scott, you said, look at the usual suspects in the area,
27:24
Speaker 1: but that have robbed or burgled before. But there is
27:28
Speaker 1: no question that the mo of a robber or a
27:32
Speaker 1: burglar is not to take an eighty four year old
27:34
Speaker 1: woman out and take them out for a drive. You
27:38
Speaker 1: can't walk past fifty yards. This is absolutely a kidnap.
27:41
Speaker 1: And that's a whole nother mindset from a robber or
27:45
Speaker 1: a burglar. And I mean they had to know she
27:48
Speaker 1: was home or somebody was someone they went in at
27:51
Speaker 1: two o'clock in the morning, of course somebody is home,
27:54
Speaker 1: So that takes it out of the robbery and burglary
27:57
Speaker 1: realm from me that said, what about it to you, Fitzgibbons,
28:04
Speaker 1: What do you believe they should be doing right now?
28:09
Speaker 5: Yeah?
28:09
Speaker 4: I agree with everything that Joe Scott and James Bass
28:12
Speaker 4: just said.
28:13
Speaker 5: And I want to add, Okay.
28:15
Speaker 1: Fitz Gibbons. Fitz Gibbons, that doesn't work on crime stories.
28:21
Speaker 1: You can't just say what he said.
28:23
Speaker 4: No, Well, I want to add one piece about what
28:27
Speaker 4: they can be looking into, which is the tattoo on
28:31
Speaker 4: the perpetrator's arm. And this is something that's been widely
28:35
Speaker 4: talked about, but we haven't talked much about the capabilities
28:38
Speaker 4: that law enforcement has to generate leads off of that.
28:42
Speaker 4: The FBI has a tattoo and graffiti Analysis team that
28:46
Speaker 4: specializes in analyzing images of tattoos, graffiti symbols, hand signs,
28:53
Speaker 4: anything remotely related to organized crime, extremist groups, and the like.
28:58
Speaker 4: And they've got access to millions upon millions of photos
29:03
Speaker 4: from arrests and bookings all across the country. And even
29:07
Speaker 4: though we have a limited look at the tattoo itself
29:10
Speaker 4: from that ring camp video, we do have the height
29:13
Speaker 4: of the suspect, the location of the tattoo, and the
29:17
Speaker 4: location of the individual himself, so that there is enough
29:21
Speaker 4: to at least assist and provide some intelligence into the search.
29:26
Speaker 1: It's called TAG TAG Tattoo and Graffiti Team. Tattoo and
29:32
Speaker 1: Graffiti Team operates actually within cryptanalysis and racketeering records. It's
29:39
Speaker 1: there in Quantico at the FBI Lab and it's a
29:41
Speaker 1: team of cryptanalysts, the only one of its kind in
29:46
Speaker 1: the US, helping law enforcement. Now, this is what we
29:51
Speaker 1: know about TAG. Experienced researchers and they have access to
29:55
Speaker 1: an incredible library of resources, thousands of distinct and photographs
30:01
Speaker 1: of tattoo and graffiti. For instance, what you see on
30:06
Speaker 1: the neck to the left, I've covered the face is
30:11
Speaker 1: a traditional Chinese character for wind, and it is used
30:16
Speaker 1: quite often. If that had appeared, that would be tracked down.
30:21
Speaker 1: Let's see the next round offered by TAG from Border Patrol.
30:26
Speaker 1: Take a look at this. What you're seeing here is
30:31
Speaker 1: a series a offering of Santa Ria on the left,
30:37
Speaker 1: see that that was in Pittsburgh and that was deciphered
30:42
Speaker 1: by TAG. Then to the top right, that is a
30:47
Speaker 1: tattoo relating to MS thirteen affiliation. On the bottom left
30:52
Speaker 1: you see the tree top Peru blood gang affiliation and
30:58
Speaker 1: at the bottom right seat and a cult drawing of
31:03
Speaker 1: a tattoo. Now these are graffiti analysis from the National
31:08
Speaker 1: Joint Terrorism Task Force. Now what TAG does is they
31:13
Speaker 1: look at these including tattoos, and they can trace them. Tattoos, symbols,
31:20
Speaker 1: other images can reveal so many significant details about a crime,
31:25
Speaker 1: a perp, and they're easy to overlook if they are
31:29
Speaker 1: not immediately identifiable. So how do you go about Brian
31:34
Speaker 1: Fitzgibbons is joining us one of his expertise, how do
31:38
Speaker 1: you go about enlarging what we're seeing on his wrist
31:43
Speaker 1: and figuring out what portion of a much larger tattoo
31:47
Speaker 1: it is in identifying it definitely TAG for sure. What
31:52
Speaker 1: else how do they do it?
31:54
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's where the difficulty is going to come in,
31:57
Speaker 4: Right that we only have a small portion of the
32:00
Speaker 4: tattoo visible and the resolution is not so high, So
32:04
Speaker 4: there's going to be some kind of AI assisted enhancement
32:08
Speaker 4: done to this. And I want to add one thing
32:10
Speaker 4: that the FBI, through their next generation identification system, is
32:16
Speaker 4: moving towards a tattooed database that's image searchable as opposed
32:21
Speaker 4: to the tech searchable format that exists within the NCIC
32:26
Speaker 4: database where a lot of this type of information is
32:29
Speaker 4: stored on bookings and arrests. So they've been developing that
32:33
Speaker 4: system over a course of a number of years. So
32:36
Speaker 4: I think they'll have a very good swath of millions
32:40
Speaker 4: of tattoo photos to analyze this against.
32:43
Speaker 1: Well, there is the entire database, but also I want
32:47
Speaker 1: you to look at one more series what you were
32:49
Speaker 1: saying here, This is from our friends at US Customs
32:51
Speaker 1: and Border Protection. Now this was submitted to them, and
32:56
Speaker 1: they identified a scorpion tattoo and General Francisco Villa aka
33:03
Speaker 1: Pancho Villa, and he is found on a number of tattoos.
33:09
Speaker 1: So you're going to have to call on these experts
33:13
Speaker 1: to make sense of the tattoo and then track where
33:18
Speaker 1: it came from. Believe it or not, not every tattoo
33:21
Speaker 1: parlor will give every tattoo that's heard of. Certain parlors,
33:27
Speaker 1: certain tattoo artists specialize in certain tattoos, and believe me,
33:33
Speaker 1: the FBI is all over it. We may not be
33:36
Speaker 1: able to make out this symbol, but they will and
33:43
Speaker 1: tonight a theory has seemingly taken over the Internet, and
33:48
Speaker 1: it is that a Chilean theft gang is responsible for
33:53
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping. Okay to you, Dave Matt Crime Stories
33:59
Speaker 1: investigating reporter. There was Travis Kelcey, Patrick Mahome, Bobby Portas,
34:04
Speaker 1: Joe Burrow and other high profile athletes that reportedly were burgled.
34:13
Speaker 1: It's only a robbery if you take it from the
34:15
Speaker 1: person burglary as you take it from the structure. Those
34:20
Speaker 1: cases are very different. I don't recall anyone kidnapped in
34:25
Speaker 1: those cases there was. What can you tell me about this.
34:28
Speaker 2: Theory, Well, I can tell you that the one consistent
34:31
Speaker 2: feature to the Chilean you know robbery crew is that
34:36
Speaker 2: they apparently just targeted athletes, high profile, rich athletes that
34:41
Speaker 2: they the Chilean robbery group knew when the guy when
34:45
Speaker 2: they were out of town because they knew where they
34:47
Speaker 2: were playing their games and things like that. So the
34:50
Speaker 2: homes were targeted at those times when the teams were
34:54
Speaker 2: playing away. I don't know how that fits into an
34:59
Speaker 2: eighty four year old woman who can't walk more than
35:01
Speaker 2: fifty feet. Also, it's not we have no proof that
35:07
Speaker 2: this was a robbery, you know, that was something that
35:09
Speaker 2: was brought up, a possible foiled robbery or something along
35:11
Speaker 2: those lines. But Nancy, there is no report of any
35:16
Speaker 2: front Guthrie's home. There's no report of a robbery. We
35:20
Speaker 2: have heard that idea of a bungled robbery, but that's
35:23
Speaker 2: just not what seems to be the case at all.
35:26
Speaker 2: It appears that this was a targeted kidnapping, not a
35:29
Speaker 2: robbery gone bad. So the Chilean idea that angle really
35:35
Speaker 2: is focused on the high profile nature of the individual. Well,
35:39
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie is only high profile because of her daughter
35:43
Speaker 2: in that regard, So I'm not really sure that the
35:46
Speaker 2: Chilean robbery crew holds a lot of water.
35:49
Speaker 3: Just my thought.
35:56
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace James Bass it's the South
36:03
Speaker 1: American Theft Group sat G, and that includes chile nationals.
36:09
Speaker 1: They've been linked to millions of dollars of stolen goods
36:12
Speaker 1: from wealthy rich US homes. They conduct extensive surveillance that's
36:19
Speaker 1: in common with this. They use jammers, which that's really
36:24
Speaker 1: old news. Jammers have been used by robbing cruise in
36:27
Speaker 1: LA for a really long time. But the Guthries home location,
36:33
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's home is not like a multimillionaire athlete's mansion.
36:42
Speaker 1: And I'm just very curious. In all of those cases,
36:46
Speaker 1: no one was home and it was actually a robbery.
36:51
Speaker 1: None of those gang members wanted to encounter a living
36:55
Speaker 1: person in the home, So what do you make of it?
36:59
Speaker 3: I would have to agree with the opinion that these
37:03
Speaker 3: are probably not related. I'm basing that on the fact,
37:08
Speaker 3: just my past criminal investigation experience. You don't want to
37:14
Speaker 3: encounter someone in a robbery. The surveillance that they would
37:18
Speaker 3: have conducted prior to, if it had been consistent with
37:21
Speaker 3: the Chilean gang, would have identified someone in the home.
37:24
Speaker 3: That would have been the only ahead of time. It
37:27
Speaker 3: just it really does not fit what you would expect
37:30
Speaker 3: to see.
37:32
Speaker 4: What about if it's GIBBN spot on and you know
37:34
Speaker 4: these crews, It's not just limited to Chilean robbery crews
37:40
Speaker 4: all across.
37:40
Speaker 5: The United States.
37:42
Speaker 4: This is something that's widely investigated by law enforcement and
37:45
Speaker 4: there are certainly patterns to it. They utilize, you know,
37:50
Speaker 4: very integrated surveillance techniques, disguise to go up to do
37:55
Speaker 4: mimic deliveries, to check on patterns, build that past her
38:00
Speaker 4: life at that household before they make their hit. So
38:04
Speaker 4: you know, to think that this took place at a
38:07
Speaker 4: time when the burglar was sure that Nancy got through
38:12
Speaker 4: would be home certainly refutes that point.
38:17
Speaker 1: Well, here's the other thing. In all of those cases,
38:19
Speaker 1: items were taken, not a little old lady items, very
38:24
Speaker 1: expensive items were actually taken from the residence that did
38:28
Speaker 1: not happen here, Dave Matt. In fact, I haven't heard
38:31
Speaker 1: of a single thing taken from the home and a
38:36
Speaker 1: lot of and I saw someone write this on x
38:39
Speaker 1: aka Twitter, asking had any of Nancy Guthrie's jewelry been taken?
38:44
Speaker 1: Because in a lot of the photos we see her
38:46
Speaker 1: with Savannah, she's wearing some beautiful jewelry. I think she
38:52
Speaker 1: was wearing it in the video of her at that
38:54
Speaker 1: Mexican restaurant. Let's pull that up. When Savannah made an
38:57
Speaker 1: Arizona homecoming that said, I haven't heard a word about
39:02
Speaker 1: missing jewelry. Remember how a Groton watch took center stage
39:07
Speaker 1: in the Lacy Peterson investigation, and then a similar watch
39:12
Speaker 1: was pawned, not the watch, but a similar watch. We
39:16
Speaker 1: haven't heard anything about stolen jewelry or pawn shop searches.
39:21
Speaker 1: I mean, it suggests to me nothing was taken.
39:23
Speaker 5: Now.
39:23
Speaker 2: The only thing we've even seen close to that, Nancy,
39:26
Speaker 2: is last week when we had the FEDS on the
39:30
Speaker 2: scene going into the home. You remember when they parked
39:32
Speaker 2: the suv in the garage, you shut the door. There
39:37
Speaker 2: were two people later that day that were using a
39:40
Speaker 2: metal detector along the driveway and searching in there, had
39:45
Speaker 2: like a garden spade and the metal detector looking for
39:48
Speaker 2: something maybe, but no no report of anything stolen by
39:53
Speaker 2: law enforcement at this point. Now, whether there's something missing
39:56
Speaker 2: they're not talking about. I mean that could be, but
39:59
Speaker 2: no men of robbery at all.
40:01
Speaker 1: Here. She is wearing a pendant, bracelets, earrings, Nothing said
40:08
Speaker 1: about missing jewelry. Another theory Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator,
40:13
Speaker 1: that's from our friends at today. A lot of stated
40:18
Speaker 1: has been stated about missus Guthrie suffering a heart attack.
40:23
Speaker 1: Explain your analysis of that theory.
40:26
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I think that there's a sleep doc
40:30
Speaker 6: that a guy that deals with people that suffer from
40:34
Speaker 6: sleep apnea. This idea of the sudden shock of being
40:37
Speaker 6: awakened in the middle of the night, And you know,
40:40
Speaker 6: it gave me pause to think about a comment that
40:43
Speaker 6: you'd made earlier, Nancy, about you know, they didn't go
40:47
Speaker 6: in with the intention of stealing, but yet we have
40:54
Speaker 6: missus Guthrie that's missing. And not to put words in
40:57
Speaker 6: your mouth, but your feeling is that they went there
41:00
Speaker 6: with a specific content to remove her. What if they
41:02
Speaker 6: went in and she did have a medical event and
41:07
Speaker 6: they panicked and they removed her from the home for
41:11
Speaker 6: whatever reason, could a heart attack fit into into that?
41:17
Speaker 6: And listen, she's she's certainly somebody's candidate for that. We
41:22
Speaker 6: know she's on blood dinner, she's hypertensive, she's got a
41:25
Speaker 6: pacemaker that regulates the rhythm of her heart. She's in
41:28
Speaker 6: fragile health, all right. And there are much more robust
41:33
Speaker 6: people out there that would knuckle under in circumstances like this.
41:38
Speaker 6: So is that a possibility, Well, yeah, I mean it's
41:41
Speaker 6: a possibility. I mean, we already know something about her
41:45
Speaker 6: relative to she's had blood that has been deposited outside
41:51
Speaker 6: of that home that can in fact be tied back
41:54
Speaker 6: to her, and I have my own thoughts about the
41:57
Speaker 6: nature of that deposition, and you know I've thought about that,
42:02
Speaker 6: you know, extensively. But whether or not she had a
42:05
Speaker 6: heart attack, that's it's almost impossible for anyone to make
42:10
Speaker 6: that kind of diagnosis at this point in time. Hopefully
42:13
Speaker 6: we won't have to make that diagnosis. Hopefully we'll be
42:15
Speaker 6: able to find her alive and say, hey.
42:19
Speaker 1: Jo Scott, look at this. You know, James Bass and
42:23
Speaker 1: I were talking earlier. James, what was your analysis? You
42:27
Speaker 1: brought up the fact that you do not believe, as
42:30
Speaker 1: Joe Scott and I do, that she was standing when
42:35
Speaker 1: this blood was left there, when her blood this is
42:39
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's blood, based on aspiration. Explain your analysis, James, Now.
42:45
Speaker 3: I am no, let's better expert. You know on the
42:48
Speaker 3: record for that, what we were looking at there was
42:52
Speaker 3: just the low velocity their straight down drops that are
42:56
Speaker 3: deposited there around the porch. But what we do see
43:00
Speaker 3: there is that aspiration. Must they have be an aspirated pattern,
43:03
Speaker 3: you know, a cough or you know, a sneeze, something
43:07
Speaker 3: something consistent with that. But to be that small that
43:12
Speaker 3: pattern would be in my experience, you would be a
43:15
Speaker 3: little bit closer to the surface, so possibly kneeling, possibly
43:20
Speaker 3: being taken out of the house, you know it, I
43:25
Speaker 3: believe there's I believe that to be the origin of
43:28
Speaker 3: the pattern. But that's just my opinion.
43:32
Speaker 1: What about it, JESSCTT.
43:33
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, And it's a highly concentrated area. Uh, you know,
43:38
Speaker 6: and you know, you've been out on plenty of crime scenes, Nancy,
43:40
Speaker 6: You've seen blood, you know, deposited and a lot of
43:43
Speaker 6: a lot of different locations over a broad area. This
43:46
Speaker 6: is a very contained area where you have that. And
43:50
Speaker 6: the most interesting bit to this is is the fact
43:55
Speaker 6: that that blood in the larger droplets, it appears, you know,
43:59
Speaker 6: some of those have white centers to them. That appears
44:03
Speaker 6: that blood appears to be a rated which means that
44:06
Speaker 6: it's coming out of the Naso Fair Necks area. So
44:09
Speaker 6: I don't know if she's been traumatized in the mouth
44:11
Speaker 6: and knows that sort of thing. I would suspect that
44:15
Speaker 6: she probably has been because the expiated blood that you
44:17
Speaker 6: see there, the tiny little satellite drops in that one
44:20
Speaker 6: cluster that is consistent with her you know, coughing perhaps.
44:26
Speaker 6: And again I point back, you know, you and I
44:28
Speaker 6: had this discussion not too long ago about another case
44:31
Speaker 6: out of Arizona that we had similar blood deposition, and
44:35
Speaker 6: that was in Travis Alexander. When we take a look
44:39
Speaker 6: at his vanity in his bedroom or in his bathroom, remember,
44:44
Speaker 6: after he had been stabbed, he expiated blood onto that surface,
44:47
Speaker 6: that vanity, you know, where he's probably looking at himself
44:49
Speaker 6: in the mirror, and that's kind of the similar thing
44:52
Speaker 6: that you're seeing here. The blood is air rated, it's
44:55
Speaker 6: being forced out, and you got that one spot right there.
44:59
Speaker 6: But Nancy then stops, and that's the you know, with
45:02
Speaker 6: Travis Alexander, we have blood everywhere, but with this it's
45:04
Speaker 6: in that one focal area right there, and it stops.
45:09
Speaker 6: And we don't know what happened at that point. Was
45:12
Speaker 6: she was she in fact covered in some way, picked
45:15
Speaker 6: up hauled off. I have no idea, and there's no
45:19
Speaker 6: footprints that we can see, at least in this image
45:22
Speaker 6: of blood. Either.
45:23
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Nancy
45:26
Speaker 1: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial one eight hundred two two five
45:32
Speaker 1: five three two four repeat eight hundred two two five
45:35
Speaker 1: five three two four, or if you wish to remain anonymous,
45:40
Speaker 1: five to zero eight eight two seven four sixty three
45:44
Speaker 1: five two zero eight eight two seven four six three.
45:50
Speaker 1: There is a one point two plus million dollar reward
45:56
Speaker 1: for information leading to the whereabouts of Nancy. Guthrie asked
46:00
Speaker 1: much less. A conviction is not required to get the reward.
46:05
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend,