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Massacres, the Children's Crusade and Kingdom of Heaven - History of CRUSADES with Prof. Nicholas Morton (Pt.II) · The Smart Cookies podcast

0:04
Welcome back to the second episode of our series
0:06
on the Crusades with Nicholas Morton, professor
0:09
in Middle Eastern history at Nottingham Trent
0:12
University. If you haven't checked out the first
0:16
episode yet, it is absolutely obligatory listening.
0:19
So please drop everything, abandon your family
0:21
and friends and put the episode on immediately.
0:24
But if you have, you will have known that we
0:27
have concluded the story with a pretty unbelievable.
0:31
outcome, and that is the conquest of Jerusalem
0:34
by the forces of the first crusade. Professor,
0:38
the often repeated line about the conquest of
0:41
Jerusalem is that once they conquered it, the
0:43
crusaders were wallowing in blood in the streets
0:46
of the city because they slaughtered so many
0:48
inhabitants who were living there. How brutal
0:52
were these massacres really, and why did they
0:55
happen in the first place? Yes. So the massacre
0:59
in Jerusalem is not, in fact, the only massacre
1:01
conducted by the Crusaders. There were several
1:04
others. When they conquered Antioch to the north,
1:06
they massacred the population there and in other
1:10
towns, such as the Syrian town of Mara as well.
1:14
And Jerusalem seems to have been particularly
1:16
violent. And several thousand people were slaughtered
1:21
in the Crusaders' initial conquest of the city
1:24
with other groups. then being killed over the
1:28
following days. So this was an extremely violent
1:31
and bloody section of the crusade. But as you
1:35
say, it raises the question of why. What was
1:37
the reason for this? Now, historians have given
1:42
different explanations for the massacres in Jerusalem
1:46
and elsewhere. One explanation is that this was
1:51
standard military practice. So to a medieval
1:55
eye, and this crosses many cultures, if a city
1:59
surrenders when an army advances against it,
2:03
the advancing army is expected to spare the inhabitants.
2:09
If a city does not surrender but resists an advancing
2:13
army and is then taken by storm, then according
2:18
to medieval military practice, it's considered
2:22
to be understandable that the army will sack
2:27
the city. I was under the impression, excuse
2:30
me, that only the Mongols did that. And that's
2:34
why they became infamous. They asked, are you
2:37
surrendering? They didn't surrender, and then
2:39
they just massacred everybody. And that fact
2:41
actually shocked people who were writing about
2:45
it at the time, because they actually did carry
2:47
out what they say that they're going to do. I
2:49
didn't know that this applied wholesale in medieval
2:52
warfare. It can vary a little bit, but it is
2:55
also common practice. So that's one possible
2:59
explanation. And that may explain some of the
3:02
other massacres conducted by the crusade. But
3:05
I've always found that to be an unsatisfactory
3:07
explanation for the massacre at Jerusalem. Because
3:12
they don't just conduct one massacre, they conduct
3:14
several. And even the crusaders themselves. describe
3:18
it as being extremely bloody. So we're looking
3:20
at something that goes beyond normal military
3:22
practice. And so it's difficult to explain, but
3:28
I suspect that it probably sits somewhere in
3:34
the following, which is that they've been marching
3:36
on Jerusalem for years. It's taken them about
3:39
two years to get to Jerusalem. By the time they
3:43
get to Jerusalem, about 75 % of all crusading
3:49
forces who set out for Jerusalem have gone, either
3:52
death or desertion. So the number of casualties
3:56
among the crusading army has been enormous. They've
4:00
lost huge numbers of people. They've also suffered
4:03
malnutrition, dehydration, and then they reach
4:09
at their goal in Jerusalem. They're also obviously
4:13
extremely ideologically charged. They're doing
4:17
this to achieve a religious goal. And I suspect
4:21
that once they cross the walls in Jerusalem,
4:23
it's a little bit like blowing up a dam. The
4:27
flood water just floods out and we're looking
4:29
at an enormous outpouring of a mixture of suffering
4:34
and loss and religious fanaticism all being brought
4:38
together. in a colossal outpouring of violence.
4:43
What are they saying about it? You did say that
4:46
even they mentioned how brutal these massacres
4:49
were. Are they justifying it in any way, or are
4:51
they just reporting the facts on what they did?
4:55
They don't see it now. It's complicated. But
4:58
most crusaders don't see it as being a problem.
5:02
We have some who seem to indicate that they felt
5:06
some... concerns at the sheer scale of the massacre.
5:10
But from their perspective, Jerusalem is their
5:15
goal, and they want to fully restore Jerusalem
5:18
to being a Christian city as it had been many
5:22
centuries previously. And so for that purpose,
5:27
they want to massacre the population and thereby
5:30
reclaim it. It's an exceptionally tragic and
5:33
brutal event. Professor, I mean, Jerusalem has
5:37
fallen, but it just seems very unlikely that
5:39
this kind of motley crew of an army whipped up
5:42
from many different factions and places, fighting
5:45
on unfamiliar terrain most of the time in an
5:48
unfamiliar climate and dealing with so many unknowns
5:52
would actually succeed in the end. And now you
5:55
also said that they lose 75 % of their forces
5:59
as well. And yet they did succeed. It's like...
6:03
dropping an army on Mars and hoping they're going
6:05
to achieve anything there. To what do you attribute
6:08
the success of the First Crusade? You did mention
6:11
morale before, but there must have been more,
6:13
right? Yeah, it really, really shouldn't have
6:16
worked. It really shouldn't. And people have
6:21
described Urban as launching the Crusade, but
6:25
in many ways, it was an enormous act of, from
6:29
a purely military and practical perspective,
6:32
It's hard to imagine the Pope ever believing
6:34
this could ever work because let's just acknowledge
6:37
the challenge. They've got to march from Western
6:41
Europe to Jerusalem. And we have reports of crusaders
6:45
getting halfway through Germany and saying, OK,
6:48
we've been marching for weeks. Where's Jerusalem
6:50
then? They have no idea where they're going.
6:55
There's no formal command structure. Large numbers
6:59
of the Crusaders are non -combatants. They're
7:02
just pilgrims going to Jerusalem. And so they've
7:05
got to be fed and protected whilst offering nothing
7:08
in return from a military perspective. They are
7:12
going up against the Seljuk Turkish Empire, which
7:15
is arguably the most effective and most elite
7:18
empire and with extraordinarily competent armies
7:22
of its era. And they're doing it with no logistics,
7:26
really. or very light logistics. And this is
7:31
a time when nomadic armies were, of their very
7:34
nature, more effective than agricultural armies
7:38
like those raised by the Crusaders. So it really,
7:42
really shouldn't have worked. The factors that
7:46
caused it to work, in my view, are firstly that
7:52
some of their leaders were very, very competent.
7:55
people like Bermond of Taranto, a southern Norman
8:00
conqueror, very experienced. And so he managed
8:04
to work out ways of conducting battles that could,
8:08
to some extent, offset the disadvantages of his
8:12
own armies. There are groups in the Middle East
8:16
willing to work with the Crusaders and support
8:18
them, and that also is important. The Byzantine
8:21
Empire is the obvious example. but there are
8:24
also several Eastern Christian groups, particularly
8:27
many Armenian societies, who have suffered under
8:30
the Seljuk Turks and are willing to provide some
8:32
support for the Crusaders. There are also some
8:36
Bedouin and Arab groups that also support the
8:40
Crusaders. I suspect they probably were being
8:43
driven off their grazing grounds by the Turks,
8:46
who of course are nomadic, but that's a little
8:49
bit of a guess. But there are Muslim allies for
8:52
the First Crusade. And until the siege of Jerusalem,
8:56
the Fatimid Empire, that's a Shia Muslim empire
9:01
centered on Egypt, the Fatimids wanted to resist
9:05
the Seljuk Turks who controlled much of the Middle
9:09
East. And they too, for much of the Crusades
9:12
course, were prepared to ally with the Crusades.
9:15
They do have allies. But even so, it still requires
9:20
a fair amount of explanation. I think there's
9:22
also... ideological factors, religious commitment,
9:26
the fact they've got no way of returning home
9:29
or it's going to be very difficult, so they can't
9:31
escape easily. And then, of course, as they start
9:37
winning battles, they become more experienced,
9:41
better able to work together, their troops become
9:45
more competent, their skills improve, and once
9:49
you've begun to win the first battle, you become
9:52
better able to win the second battle. Once you've
9:54
won the fifth battle, then you're going to be
9:56
winning whatever happens because you're just
9:58
that effective in combat. So they did learn pretty
10:02
quickly. They learned a lot. And they're very,
10:06
very interested in the warcraft of their opponents.
10:10
There's a real focus on that in the reports written
10:14
by the Crusaders. They want to understand how
10:17
the armies raised by the Seljuk Turks or by the
10:22
Fatimid Empire in Egypt, how those armies operate.
10:25
But obviously they're looking for weak spots.
10:27
So, for example, they discover that the Seljuk
10:30
Turkish armies, which are mostly made up of mounted
10:33
archers, they work out the Seljuk Turks' bows,
10:38
the bow strings. They become weak and they begin
10:42
to stretch in the rain. So if they get moisture,
10:45
they stretch. And so the lesson from that for
10:50
the Crusaders is, fight in the rain what kind
10:55
of a shock did the conquest of jerusalem cause
10:57
in the muslim world um it causes a substantial
11:01
shock um of course before the crusaders arrival
11:06
jerusalem had been besieged many times jerusalem
11:11
had been on the frontier of war between the seljuk
11:14
turkish empire and the fatimid empire and in
11:17
i think it was 1078 there was another very brutal
11:21
massacre in Jerusalem conducted by the Turks.
11:25
So Jerusalem is already a war zone, and the city
11:29
itself has suffered a great deal. But the sudden
11:33
and unexpected arrival of the crusade, and particularly
11:36
this is a Christian invasion army, that is a
11:40
major shock because, of course, Jerusalem thereafter
11:43
is in Christian rather than Muslim hands. So
11:48
that does seem to have caused a fair amount of
11:51
shock, although it is difficult to gauge. We
11:55
do have some reports close to the actual siege
12:00
of Jerusalem expressing shock, although many
12:03
of the descriptions we have of the crusader siege
12:06
of Jerusalem come from many decades later. And
12:09
so it's difficult to know exactly how people
12:11
responded at the time. Okay, so the First Crusade
12:15
establishes the Kingdom of Jerusalem for the
12:18
next about 200 years, right? What's the relationship
12:21
between the papacy as well as the European aristocracy
12:25
and this new kind of strange hybrid state in
12:29
the Middle East? For example, did the king of
12:32
the Kingdom of Jerusalem have equal status as
12:35
a French king, for example? Okay, so in the wake
12:39
of the Crusaders' conquest... of Edessa in the
12:43
north, Antioch to the southwest of Edessa, and
12:48
then further south, Jerusalem, you have the creation
12:51
of a network of crusader states as they become
12:56
known. So a series of Christian states or Catholic
13:00
Christian states in the Middle East. And then
13:03
a few years later, the conquest of the city of
13:07
Tripoli in what today would be northern Lebanon.
13:10
creates the fourth crusader state and as you
13:13
say they survive for almost 200 years now jerusalem
13:20
has a king edessa and tripoli have counts antioch
13:24
has a prince but they all have rulers and all
13:27
those rulers depend to some degree on the catholic
13:31
church and so it's not all one kingdom no there's
13:36
four i see in fact when they conquer cyprus in
13:38
the 1190s there's five Right. But all these states,
13:43
they're incredibly vulnerable in their early
13:46
years because in the wake of the First Crusade,
13:48
most of the crusaders go home. And that leaves
13:52
only a few hundred knights in each state to continue
13:57
to govern in that area. And so from their very
14:01
early years, the crusader states need thousands
14:04
of pilgrims, settlers and crusaders every year.
14:10
to build their numbers and to make their states
14:13
viable in the long term. And the papacy plays
14:18
a crucial role in supporting this. Now, the kings
14:21
of Jerusalem, as kings, they are technically
14:25
equal in status to the kings of France or the
14:30
kings of England or other places in Western Europe,
14:32
although their territories early on are much
14:35
smaller. But the papacy provides support by authorizing
14:40
further Crusades. There are lots of Crusades
14:43
in the years after the First Crusade. In fact,
14:47
it's commonly known the Crusades were numbered.
14:52
First Crusade, Second Crusade, Third Crusade,
14:55
Fourth Crusade, etc. Those numbers, we do still
14:59
use them, but actually it's quite misleading
15:02
because between the First Crusade and the Second
15:05
Crusade, There's many, many crusading armies
15:08
that are sent out from Western Christendom. The
15:11
numbered crusades are just the big ones, basically.
15:14
So every year, thousands and thousands of warriors
15:17
and families arrive in the crusader states looking
15:22
to expand or secure the crusader states in their
15:26
early years. And the papacy supports this, authorizing
15:30
crusaders. And then 20 years after the first
15:34
crusade, It's 28 years, in fact, after the First
15:41
Crusade. The papacy also, 29, I'm getting mixed
15:46
up now, it's 30 years. Apologies. 30 years after
15:49
the First Crusade, the papacy also authorizes
15:53
a formal institution, a monastic institution
15:57
of the Catholic Church, which is the Knights
16:00
Templar. And the Knights Templar themselves then
16:05
augment the warriors defending the Crusader states,
16:09
building, garrisoning castles, providing troops,
16:12
and they are supported in large part by the papacy
16:15
and other military orders, as they're known.
16:18
Knights Hospitaller, the Teutonic Knights, a
16:21
German military order later on. Some small Spanish
16:24
military orders also have a presence in the Middle
16:26
East as well. They also show the papacy's commitment
16:31
to supporting The Crusader States, their expansion
16:34
over time. Okay. By the way, speaking of Kingdom
16:38
of Jerusalem, the famous film depicting it is,
16:41
of course, Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven.
16:43
Yes. With the extremely beautiful, if a bit dull,
16:47
Orlando Bloom in the lead role. Did you see the
16:50
film? And if you did, what did you think of it?
16:53
Oh, dear. I have significant problems with it,
16:59
I'm afraid. Just for a start, if any listeners
17:07
have actually been to that part of the Middle
17:11
East themselves, they will know that this is
17:15
not a landscape of deserts and palm trees. It's
17:20
agricultural land. The Kingdom of Jerusalem,
17:23
for the most part, is built on good agricultural
17:25
land. In their early years, the Crusaders, they
17:29
focused their attention on areas they can farm
17:33
because they want to eat and in fact one of the
17:37
ways i explain many of the crusaders early campaigns
17:40
to my students is to show them a picture of a
17:44
rainfall diagram of the middle east and i basically
17:48
say all you want to do is follow the 1500 milliliter
17:53
line of rainfall and that's where they're attacking
17:56
because that's the farmland and yet in kingdom
18:00
of heaven it's all desert desert yeah and perhaps
18:03
rather sort of curiously orlando bloom teaches
18:07
people in the middle east about irrigation which
18:10
seems rather unlikely to me quite honestly given
18:13
that he's coming from an area with excellent
18:15
rainfall and in the middle east they're already
18:17
experts irrigation but that's that's only a small
18:21
point but Don't get me started too much on this
18:24
one. We're here all day. Okay. What about the
18:28
battles? Last question. That are depicted in
18:31
the movie and stuff. The battles are a bit better.
18:35
I like the way they show the fluid and organic
18:38
movement of the Muslim forces in the battles.
18:44
That works better, particularly in sort of field
18:48
encounters. The siege of Jerusalem is more problematic
18:52
because Saladin's forces of this era hardly ever
18:57
used siege towers, and they didn't use them at
18:59
the siege of Jerusalem. Saladin's tactics, like
19:02
many other Muslim or Turkish or Kurdish commanders
19:06
from his era, they almost inevitably rely on
19:11
a massive archery and catapult barrage, followed
19:15
by undermining. They dig under the walls and
19:18
then bring them down. They didn't use siege towers.
19:20
It's very, very rare. And they didn't use them
19:22
at Jerusalem. Saladin in the movie is a pretty
19:25
cool character. I've got to say that. I like
19:28
the actor. I think the actor does a very good
19:31
job. Very charismatic opposed to Orlando Bloom,
19:35
who's a bit lacking in this department. I'm afraid,
19:38
but okay. Yeah, there are very few characters.
19:41
In fact, one of the few clips I have shown my
19:44
students in the past. There we go. Yes. I don't
19:48
do this much, but one of the things I particularly
19:50
like, I like both the sentiment and the way it's
19:53
delivered in Kingdom of Heaven, is where Orlando
19:57
Bloom's character says to Saladin, what is Jerusalem
20:01
worth? And Saladin says, nothing. And then everything.
20:09
And he's quite right. Jerusalem is valueless.
20:13
It's not a large city. It's a small city. It
20:17
has no major trade routes going through it. The
20:20
big cities in the area are Damascus, Aleppo,
20:23
and Cairo. People aren't interested in Jerusalem.
20:26
It has no mining, very little agriculture. It's
20:30
not a major market. It's valueless. It's a small
20:34
city. on the edge of the desert, which doesn't
20:37
have a consistent water supply in this era. There's
20:40
very little reason to want it. But it's Jerusalem.
20:47
And it's central, of course, to Judaism, Islam,
20:51
and Christianity. And so I like that sentiment
20:54
because it captures the nothing and the everything.
20:57
So that's one of the bits I do like. Yeah, that's
21:00
probably the best scene in the movie. And also
21:02
the way the actor delivers it is just... It's
21:05
very well delivered, yeah. Okay, the military
21:09
orders, you just mentioned them, most famously
21:12
the knight Templars, somehow the ultimate villains
21:14
in Kingdom of Heaven, spring up as a result of
21:18
the Crusades. Theologically speaking, how is
21:22
it possible to take religious vows, which they
21:24
had to do, and which are quite a serious thing,
21:27
and yet be allowed to hack away with their swords
21:30
and kill people at the same time? Great question.
21:34
So there's a couple of points here. The first,
21:37
just to sort of start with the whole question
21:40
of how they could do this. So the first crusade
21:47
took place, 1095 to 1099, and it achieved its
21:53
goals, astonishingly. But of course, that's not
21:58
just a military fact. Many people at this time
22:03
also saw this as a spiritual fact. If God hadn't
22:08
supported the Crusaders, how could it possibly
22:11
have succeeded? And so the Crusade itself, in
22:15
the eyes of medieval thinkers, becomes an argument
22:18
in favor of religious war. If God hadn't wanted
22:21
it to work, it wouldn't have worked. But it did
22:24
work. So that line in the sand has already been
22:29
crossed. And holy war... is already deemed to
22:31
be acceptable in the eyes of the Catholic Church
22:34
at this time. So it's less of a problem for the
22:39
Templars to adopt a military role because that's
22:41
already happened. And there's various writers
22:46
who write in favor of the Knights Templar, making
22:50
the same kinds of arguments that were made about
22:52
the Crusaders in some respects, which is that
22:55
the Knights Templar are the ultimate warriors
22:59
of Christendom. because as monks through prayer
23:02
they fight the devil but as warriors in the world
23:07
they fight the enemies of christendom they're
23:10
sort of fighting on both planes the ultimate
23:12
warrior and there's the head of the cistercian
23:17
monastic order actually holds the templars up
23:22
as role models for society people should aspire
23:26
to be the alliance templar particularly the knightly
23:29
families of this era. So they're seen as something
23:32
to celebrate. There are critics of the Templars.
23:37
There's one very famous one, or I find him very
23:40
interesting, from a few years after the Templars'
23:44
creation, who makes the rather sarcastic or wry
23:48
comment that the Templars' behavior doesn't really
23:51
match the behavior of Jesus and his disciples.
23:56
But he's a lone voice. There's not a lot of criticism
24:01
that's been made about this. So yes, the Templars
24:05
are seen as being a sort of institutionalized
24:08
form of religious warfare. And you could also
24:11
point out that the monks or monastic virtues
24:15
of poverty, chastity, and obedience they do actually,
24:22
again, lay the foundations for an effective military
24:25
force. If you have a group of people who are
24:28
rigidly loyal to their superiors, who perform
24:33
their instructions exactly, that has a military
24:37
application. If you have a society where people
24:41
live in poverty, with good food, but with no
24:46
additional money or no additional sort of...
24:49
trinkets or wealth, that when they fight a battle
24:52
where other knights might defeat an enemy and
24:56
then start gathering all the gold and looting
24:59
their armor, Knights Templar won't. They will
25:02
charge, defeat one unit, turn, charge again,
25:05
defeat another unit, turn, charge again. They
25:08
will continue to fight. They won't be distracted
25:10
by the allure of gathering plunder. They'll just
25:15
carry on fighting. And because they are rigidly
25:19
trained, again, the monastic system, the system
25:23
of monasteries can facilitate that because training
25:26
is part of a monk's life. So Knights Templar
25:29
train all the time. They're very disciplined,
25:31
they're very organized, and therefore they are
25:34
a fearsome force on the battlefield. But if I
25:38
could also answer your second question, and this
25:41
takes us back to Kingdom of Heaven, because you're
25:46
right. In Kingdom of Heaven, the Templars are
25:49
presented as the ultimate fanatics. But this,
25:54
again, is fairly misleading. I'll tell you a
25:59
story. One of my favorite sources from the history
26:03
of the Crusades was written by an Arab nobleman
26:07
called Uzama ibn Munkid. And he was in the service
26:11
of the Emir of Damascus. And he was sent to conduct
26:16
diplomacy in the kingdom of Jerusalem. So he
26:20
went to Jerusalem, I think it was in the 1140s,
26:24
to negotiate with the king of Jerusalem. And
26:28
while he was there, he wanted to pray at the
26:32
Al -Aqsa Mosque. Because he's a Muslim, he wants
26:36
to pray there, obviously. And at this time, the
26:39
Al -Aqsa Mosque is the headquarters of the Knights
26:41
Templar. But the Templars have... put aside a
26:45
chapel in their headquarters where Muslim pilgrims
26:50
can pray. So they permit Uzama to come and pray
26:54
in this chapel, and he begins to pray in the
26:58
chapel. But then a pilgrim from Western Europe
27:01
comes charging in and grabs Uzama, drags him
27:05
out of the chapel, and tells him he's got to
27:08
pray in the Christian fashion. The Templars...
27:12
then intervene grab the pilgrim and throw him
27:17
out of the chapel and apologize to ozama and
27:21
say that they're very sorry please could he continue
27:23
with his prayers he won't be interrupted again
27:26
but this pilgrim's determined so ozama then resumes
27:31
his prayers but the pilgrim comes charging in
27:34
again breaks through the knight's templar at
27:37
the door grabs and again tries to drag him out
27:41
of the chapel. And the Templars then grab this
27:45
man and take him completely away. And they apologize
27:49
to him. And Osama makes the interesting comment
27:52
that the Knights Templar, because they are more
27:56
acculturated to the Middle East, are far less
28:00
rough than people who have newly arrived from
28:03
Western Christendom. And he also describes the
28:06
Knights Templar as his friends. That's a very
28:09
different kind of story to the one that you hear
28:11
elsewhere. And if you look at the Templars' conduct
28:14
in other contexts, in diplomacy, in warfare,
28:18
yes, they are among the leading warriors of the
28:22
crusader states. And their Muslim opponents view
28:26
them as being the most dangerous adversaries
28:29
on the battlefield. We have one Muslim writer
28:31
called Ibn Wazil who actually describes a group
28:35
of Muslim warriors who are particularly effective
28:37
as the Templars of Islam. So you can see he's
28:41
actually describing his own soldiers and using
28:44
the Templars as a sort of benchmark for military
28:47
effectiveness. But we also have Templars who
28:51
form friendships with Muslim rulers. We even
28:55
have some who become blood brothers with Muslim
28:57
rulers. So it's a much more complicated picture
29:01
than Kingdom of Heaven would have us believe.
29:05
A big surprise in the first episode was when
29:08
you said that not only did the Christian forces
29:12
not know anything about Islam and Muslims and
29:16
who they're going to be fighting on this crusade,
29:18
but they weren't interested at all. If we fast
29:21
forward to the era of the Kingdom of Jerusalem,
29:24
what are Christians living there thinking of
29:28
Islam and Muslims now? Okay, so one thing they
29:32
know very well. Islam is a different religion.
29:35
It's at a very, very basic level. And there is
29:39
some very limited knowledge of some of the basic
29:43
ideas of Islam, and the quality of that information
29:48
slightly improves over time. But not much. But
29:55
not much. There are always, both before the crusade
29:58
and after it, there are some Western European
30:01
intellectuals who are interested in Islam and
30:04
have a better understanding of it. The Quran
30:06
gets translated into Latin by a Western intellectual
30:10
in the 1140s. But outside the intellectual sphere,
30:15
there's really not much knowledge. There's more
30:18
knowledge about sort of the aspect of Islamic
30:21
culture. So Muslims don't eat pork, for example,
30:25
or things like that. Although even then, that's
30:29
often used as a basis for abuse rather than...
30:33
basis for understanding. So there's not much
30:36
knowledge, although interestingly, they are very
30:39
interested in the different ethnic groups. So
30:44
there's a lot of interest in the sources from
30:47
the Crusaders in Arabs and Turks and Kurds. That's
30:51
an area of interest that does occur. But overall,
30:56
I'd say that knowledge of Islam as a religion,
31:00
intellectually, increases but outside of an intellectual
31:05
perspective there is some development but not
31:09
nearly as much as you might think all right back
31:13
to the military orders some of these become very
31:17
powerful and rich are these orders competing
31:21
with each other for power and wealth or are they
31:24
just working synergistically um the entire time
31:28
like what's what's happening there Right, so,
31:31
from a purely financial perspective, the closest
31:36
modern comparison to the Knights Templar or Knights
31:39
Hospitaller is a charity. With a charity, a charity
31:45
represents a particular cause. People then make
31:48
donations to that cause, and the charity does
31:51
its work. The Knights Templar are very, very
31:54
similar. Again, from a purely financial perspective,
31:58
because I'm sure we wouldn't see the Templars'
32:00
actions as being what we would understand as
32:02
charitable work today. Yeah, not really. But
32:06
they sent emissaries back to Western Europe,
32:11
and they informed people across the social spectrum,
32:15
so kings, queens, merchants, artisans, farmers,
32:20
what they do. They are there to protect. Jerusalem,
32:25
they are there to protect pilgrims going to Jerusalem.
32:28
And this is considered to be a very worthwhile
32:31
cause. And so people make donations to them.
32:35
And many of those donations take the form of
32:38
land. So estates, fields, houses, in some cases
32:43
whole villages or towns or churches. And the
32:47
Templars don't sell these properties, although
32:49
they often sell them. What they do is they begin
32:52
to build up a huge inventory. of property across
32:55
Western Europe. And even today, we come across
33:01
lots of Templar -themed names. I remember flying
33:05
into Tempelhof Airport in Berlin. Berlin, yep.
33:09
That's based in a Templar estate. That's where
33:14
the name came from. And in lots of countries,
33:16
we have names which have the word temple in them.
33:19
Many, many countries. And so from... Spain to
33:25
the British Isles to Germany and Eastern Europe
33:28
the Templars and Hospitallers are given lands
33:31
and they gather them together into units called
33:35
commanderies so regional areas where they have
33:38
groups of estates and they acquire hundreds of
33:41
these things until it's thought by about the
33:44
13th century the Templars had about 900 estates
33:47
in Western Europe and each one is required to
33:51
supply one third of its income to the crusader
33:54
states. And so building that up, it becomes a
33:59
huge sort of pipeline of income. And these estates
34:04
also act as recruitment centers. So they will
34:08
talk to the local knights, the local noble families,
34:13
and encourage their children to join the Templars.
34:17
They'll then go to the local commandery, become
34:20
a knight's Templar. and then be sent all the
34:23
way to distant Jerusalem. So that's the basis
34:27
of their wealth. It's a massive network of estates
34:31
in Western Europe that send troops and money
34:34
to the crusader states. That's why they got wealthy.
34:38
But there are challenges here too. The first
34:42
challenge is that they become so wealthy that
34:45
they become a threat to the king of Jerusalem
34:46
and the other crusader states. They've got so
34:49
much money. that they become a major challenge.
34:53
And so you actually have kings complaining, kings
34:55
of Jerusalem complaining about the Templars because
34:59
the Templars are doing their own policy. They're
35:03
ignoring what the king wants. They become quite
35:05
reckless in that regard. And so in 1173, for
35:09
example, a Muslim community called the Nizaris,
35:13
known to many modern audiences as the assassins,
35:18
They open negotiations with the king of Jerusalem
35:22
over a treaty, an alliance. But the Templars
35:26
don't want this treaty, so they kill the assassin's
35:29
envoys. And that obviously enrages the king,
35:33
but it's an example of the Templars acting as
35:35
overmighty subjects. They're acting too powerful
35:39
for themselves. It's kind of darkly ironic that
35:43
they were championed for fighting the devil spiritually.
35:46
And then at the end, I believe they were accused
35:48
of worshipping the devil, right, by the French
35:50
king and then the pope when they wanted to get
35:52
rid of them. Yes, so when ultimately the Crusader
35:56
states collapse, and they collapse at the end
36:00
of the 13th century. So Antioch goes in 1268,
36:05
Tripoli goes in 1289, Jerusalem goes in 1291,
36:10
Edessa goes a long time before that, and then
36:13
the Crusader states have finished. The Crusaders...
36:16
and therefore the Templars have obviously failed.
36:20
At the same time, we have a very ambitious king
36:23
of France who wants to wage wars against the
36:26
nasty old English, and he is badly in debt to
36:32
millions of livres. He needs lots of money. And
36:37
so on one hand, you have huge Templar estates
36:40
in the kingdom of France, extraordinarily valuable.
36:44
But these Templar estates now, they can send
36:48
money to Cyprus, but the Templars have obviously
36:51
failed. But they're very, very wealthy, and the
36:56
King of France needs money. So you have a discredited
36:59
Templar order and a King of France in need of
37:02
a great deal of cash. Now, the King can't just
37:06
take their money, because the Templars are an
37:08
institution of the Church. That would be outrageous.
37:12
But he can accuse them of heresy. And so it's
37:17
not clear if King Philip of France actually believed
37:20
his own accusations, but he accuses the Templars
37:24
of heresy and then takes all their money. Okay,
37:29
if we can rewind the timeline a bit back again
37:32
to the era of Saladin. So after the First Crusade,
37:38
the Sultan of Egypt, he will famously reconquer
37:40
Jerusalem, I believe. It's in 1187, was it? Correct,
37:45
yes. Although, like we said, a lot of these crusader
37:48
states will hang on for another 100 years or
37:50
so. So these guys are not completely out of the
37:52
picture just yet. Many crusades try to recapture
37:56
Jerusalem afterwards, although I believe all
37:58
of them ultimately fail, right? How come European
38:00
powers never kind of manage to muster another
38:04
successful crusade? Okay, so, yes. Saladin assembles
38:10
a huge empire. in the 1170s and early 1180s and
38:14
with that empire he is able to defeat the kingdom
38:17
of jerusalem at the battle of hattin in july
38:20
1187 and then reconquer jerusalem soon afterwards
38:24
and this then brings about the collapse of the
38:28
kingdom of jerusalem and massive territorial
38:31
losses for the northern crusader states but then
38:36
this then triggers the next major crusade which
38:39
is the third crusade led by people like Emperor
38:43
Frederick I of Germany, Philip II of France,
38:46
and Richard I of England. So these are not like
38:51
dukes anymore. These are actual kings who are
38:53
going on a crusade. The Third Crusade is massive.
38:56
And these armies arrive in the late 1180s, and
39:01
then there's a substantial war that lasts until
39:05
a peace treaty in 1192. And the Third Crusade
39:09
fights Saladin over and over again. It wins many
39:13
of the battles against Saladin, but it doesn't
39:16
reconquer Jerusalem. But it does reconquer many
39:19
of the big ports along the coast of the Middle
39:23
East. And those ports are the economic backbone
39:26
of the region. So by reconquering many of those
39:30
ports, that then creates a basis for... the survival
39:35
of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. So the Kingdom of
39:38
Jerusalem survives without Jerusalem for almost
39:41
a century. Later Crusades are also sent to try
39:46
and rebuild the Crusader states and to reconquer
39:49
Jerusalem. The Fourth Crusade swings wildly off
39:54
course and sacks Constantinople, but that's a
39:57
different story. Okay. The Fifth Crusade tries
40:01
to conquer Egypt before conquering Jerusalem.
40:04
but it's massively defeated. The Crusade of Emperor
40:08
Frederick II of Germany, it successfully negotiates
40:12
the return of Jerusalem in 1229. And for about,
40:16
let's see, it's 15 years, Jerusalem is restored
40:21
to the Kingdom of Jerusalem, although it's lost
40:23
in 1244. Then you have, in the meantime, you
40:28
have the Sixth Crusade, which doesn't achieve
40:30
very much. Seventh Crusade, which is defeated
40:33
by Saladin's descendants. So there are lots of
40:37
Crusades trying to rebuild the kingdom of Jerusalem
40:41
or to reconquer Jerusalem itself. One briefly
40:45
succeeds, but no, the picture in the long term
40:48
is one of substantial defeat for the Crusaders
40:52
and, by contrast, victory for particularly the
40:55
Sultans of Egypt, who are very effective at defeating
40:58
Crusaders. One of the more unsettling chapters
41:03
that I stumbled on when reading a little bit
41:05
about the Crusades was the so -called Children's
41:07
Crusade, during which apparently a bunch of peasant
41:10
kids got whipped up into a religious frenzy and
41:13
became convinced they will reconquer the Holy
41:15
Lands, only to end up, I believe, being kidnapped
41:18
and sold as slaves across the Mediterranean.
41:21
Was that a real event? And if yes, what do we
41:24
know about what actually happened? Okay, so it's
41:27
called the Children's Crusade, although technically
41:30
it wasn't a crusade. To be a crusade, really,
41:35
it has to be licensed by the Pope, but this one
41:36
wasn't. But there was a mass movement of people,
41:41
not just children, although there were children
41:44
involved, who gathered together and they wanted
41:48
to reconquer Jerusalem. And so there's tens of
41:54
thousands of people gather. and they march to
41:57
the southern European ports where they plan to
42:00
take ship for the Middle East. And they're being
42:03
led by who? They're being led by various different
42:07
popular leaders. There's a bit of debate over
42:12
exactly their identity or indeed their age, but
42:15
they're viewed as being a problem by local landowners
42:18
and rulers who don't want the disruption caused
42:20
by all these children. Ultimately, the Crusade
42:25
gets nowhere because it reaches southern Italy.
42:27
It's got nowhere to go. No way of affording shipping
42:30
to the Middle East. Because you have to pay for
42:34
shipping. Nobody's just going to take you across
42:36
for free. So the Crusade breaks up. Some of the
42:40
children sort of disappear into the cities of
42:43
northern Italy. And there are some rumors that
42:46
some children were taken captive by Italian merchants
42:50
and then sold as enslaved people. From a military
42:54
perspective, the Children's Crusade is a non
42:58
-event, but it does show just how much interest
43:02
and commitment there is in the idea of reconquering
43:06
Jerusalem, and not just among nobles and aristocrats,
43:10
but among the general populace as well. And when
43:14
did that happen? 1212. I see. So it was a real
43:18
event, because sometimes when I was reading about
43:20
it online, some people said that... didn't actually
43:23
happen because it's not okay although it's a
43:27
real event although again it's it wasn't a formal
43:30
crusade and just to make life even more complicated
43:33
none of the crusades that i've described not
43:36
the first crusade the second third fourth fifth
43:39
sixth seventh none of them were described as
43:42
crusades but people at the time they were called
43:45
the journey to jerusalem they were called pilgrimages
43:48
but the concept of a crusade is an invention
43:53
of modern historians. It's not actually something
43:56
people said at the time. They did describe crusaders
44:00
with the Latin term crucignatus, which means
44:05
someone marked by the sign of the cross. But
44:08
even that didn't really emerge until the 13th
44:10
century. Before that, what we would call crusaders
44:14
were called pilgrims or just referred to by their
44:19
ethnic group as being... Franks or French, essentially,
44:23
or Italians, that sort of thing. But these journeys
44:27
to Jerusalem were sanctioned by the Pope as a
44:31
military expedition. Yeah. What they had, which
44:34
makes them distinctive, is they were sanctioned
44:37
by the papacy and the people who conducted them
44:40
were granted what are called indulgences. And
44:45
an indulgence goes like this. A knight wants
44:50
to... cleanse himself of a lifetime of waging
44:55
war against neighboring families for his lord.
44:59
So he takes a crusading vow. And what he has
45:04
to do after that crusading vow is to go to his
45:06
local priest and to confess all his sins. If
45:12
he confesses all his sins, normally that crusader
45:17
would then have to perform a penance. So an act
45:21
to show he's sorry for what he's done. But a
45:24
crusading indulgence basically means by going
45:27
on crusade, that penance is entirely removed.
45:32
So you perform no penance. It doesn't matter
45:34
what you've done. Killed people, slaughtered
45:37
towns, stolen from churches, doesn't matter.
45:41
As long as you confess the sins, the stain of
45:44
that sin will be wiped clean. I should point
45:47
out, it's not just knights, it's... knights,
45:51
merchants, women who go on crusade from across
45:55
the social spectrum, anyone can take a crusading
45:58
vow, and provided they take the vow as part of
46:02
a formal expedition, they get that indulgence
46:06
that wipes clean the spiritual stain of everything
46:08
they've ever done wrong. Were there some women
46:12
that went along with the crusades on this journey?
46:16
Lots of... female participants. Some went as
46:21
part of family groups. So perhaps they went with
46:24
their brother or with their husband. Some went
46:28
to conduct their trade. So here are sort of female
46:34
merchants or female women there to conduct. We
46:38
have female washerwomen who are there to sort
46:39
of conduct their trade as a washerwoman with
46:42
the Crusaders. There are also prostitutes who
46:45
accompany the Crusaders, although the church
46:47
is very hostile. I don't think they take crusading
46:50
vows, but they do participate in the crusading
46:53
ventures. And we even have female aristocrats.
46:58
So Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine, the Queen of France,
47:01
accompanied her husband, Louis VII of France,
47:04
on crusade. And Duchess Ida of Austria even led
47:10
a crusading contingent herself. So she was a
47:13
crusade commander. There are lots of examples
47:17
of women going on crusade. And in fact, when
47:22
Saladin besieged Jerusalem, we have a very interesting
47:26
account of the siege written by someone called
47:29
Margaret of Beverley, who is from the English
47:32
county of Yorkshire. And she went on pilgrimage
47:35
to Jerusalem and happened to be in the city when
47:38
Saladin laid siege. And she helped the defenders
47:41
of the city. She put a saucepan on her head as
47:44
a helmet. and brought water to the defenders
47:46
as they tried to protect the walls against attack.
47:50
So we have examples of female pilgrims as well
47:53
as female crusaders. By the way, I just thought
47:57
of this. There were some crusades that were conducted
48:00
within Europe, like against some heretic groups,
48:05
weren't they? Yeah, so there are lots of crusades.
48:09
I mean, the crusades to the Middle East are the
48:11
famous ones. Yeah. But in fact, within a few
48:15
years of the launch of the first crusade, the
48:18
papacy begins to launch crusades against other
48:22
opponents. And so in 1107, the papacy launches
48:27
a crusade against the Byzantine Empire, fellow
48:30
Christians. A few decades after that, the papacy
48:35
launches crusades in Spain against the Muslim
48:38
territories in Iberia. Very quickly, there are
48:43
crusades launched in the Baltic region against
48:47
the pagan peoples such as the Wends in what today
48:51
would be modern -day northern Poland. There are
48:54
anti -heresy crusades in southern France against
48:58
the Albigensian heretics. There are crusades
49:02
in northern Germany against the Stedingers. There
49:05
are later on crusades in Eastern Europe against
49:08
the Hussites. Basically, the crusade as an idea
49:13
becomes a papal weapon against all its opponents.
49:19
And there are even crusades launched against
49:21
the papacy's political opponents, even if those
49:25
political opponents are themselves Catholic Christians,
49:29
not heretics at all. So crusading starts being
49:34
directed against the Middle East. But very quickly,
49:37
it's used as a general tool of... military warfare
49:41
authorized by the papacy. During the time of
49:45
the Crusades, were there any contemporaries who
49:48
viewed the entire endeavor as an immoral one?
49:52
Surprisingly few. There are very, very occasional
49:58
indications of that sort of concern. So, for
50:04
example, towards the end of the 13th century,
50:07
there's a Spanish... preacher and hermit called
50:15
Ramon Lull. And he suggests that Knights Templar
50:19
and Knights Hospitaller should be merged into
50:22
a new military order called the Order of Science
50:25
and Chivalry, which should try and achieve conversion
50:29
to Christianity through conversation and debate.
50:34
Like a Socratic method of conversion. He does
50:38
also leave space for them to conduct warfare
50:40
as well, but within his argument, he makes the
50:44
point that this would be much closer to the example
50:48
of Jesus than going around fighting people. Again,
50:51
the rise of the Franciscans, to some extent,
50:54
is seen as an alternative method to fighting,
50:57
although the Franciscans and Dominican friars
50:59
themselves do take part in anti -heresy activities.
51:03
Again, that's mixed, but there's surprisingly
51:05
little criticism. of crusading as a concept there's
51:11
lots of criticism about crusaders misbehaving
51:14
so crusaders who plunder their opponents or who
51:17
conduct campaigns that haven't been well established
51:20
but the basic idea of whether a crusade can be
51:24
launched there are voices against it but they're
51:27
surprisingly few all right um How do the Crusader
51:35
states finally fall? Tell us about the last days
51:38
of these states. It's a surprisingly... No, you'd
51:44
expect something as dramatic as the fall of the
51:47
Crusader states to be an epic confrontation and
51:52
battle. Actually, it occurred rather differently.
51:55
By the time you get to the mid to late 13th century,
51:58
the Middle East is in the process of a massive
52:00
invasion. Not an invasion from the Crusaders,
52:04
although they did occur, but the biggest invasion
52:07
is the invasion of the Mongols. The Mongols are
52:10
in the process of conquering most of Eurasia.
52:14
China, Middle East, Central Asia. They repeatedly
52:20
invade parts of Eastern Europe, ultimately even
52:23
invading Poland and Hungary. And the Mongols
52:28
are conquering everywhere. And in the Middle
52:31
East, the really big fear is the Mongols will
52:33
complete their conquest of the entire area. And
52:37
certainly the Mongols do destroy many empires
52:40
and emirates across the Middle East, including
52:44
Saladin's empire. Saladin dies in 1193. Saladin
52:52
dies in the 1190s. But his empire continues until
52:58
it's destroyed by the Mongols in the 1260s. But
53:01
one empire in the Middle East does prove capable
53:06
of resisting and ultimately defeating the Mongols.
53:10
And that is an empire called the Mamluk Empire
53:13
in Egypt. And the Mamluks managed to hold the
53:18
Mongols at a battle called Ain Jalut in 1260.
53:23
following which they managed to conquer much
53:25
of Syria, where in fact much of Syria hands itself
53:28
over to the Mamluks because they want to be able
53:30
to resist the Mongols. And then the Mamluks substantially
53:34
defeat the Mongols in 1181. So you've got this
53:39
major new empire rising, growing in power, based
53:43
in Egypt, but spreading into Syria in the late
53:47
13th century. And this empire's big opponent
53:50
is the Mongols. Now, in the process of the Mamluk
53:55
Empire's rise to power, as it grows in territory,
54:00
territory not taken from the Crusader state,
54:02
but taken from other areas of the Middle East,
54:05
the Mamluks become overwhelmingly powerful because
54:08
they have to raise massive armies to confront
54:12
the Mongols, who also have massive armies. But
54:16
in the gaps between the Mamluks fighting the
54:19
Mongols, they occupy their armies taking apart
54:23
the Crusader states. And so the Crusader states'
54:27
downfall is rather uneventful. When the Mamluks
54:30
aren't fighting their main enemy, the Mongols,
54:33
they almost train their armies, destroying Crusader
54:38
cities, Crusader towns. There's very few battles
54:42
because the Mamluk army is so much bigger than
54:44
the Kingdom of Jerusalem's army that there's
54:47
no point trying to meet the Mamluks in battle.
54:49
So the Mamluks destroy one town one year, Two
54:52
years later, another town, then another town,
54:55
and then it collapses. And so it's a slow period
54:59
of disintegration at the hands of the Mamluks,
55:03
who were actually much more worried about the
55:06
Mongols. Why does the willingness to organize
55:09
new campaigns after that dwindle in Europe? There
55:13
is a longstanding willingness to send big crusades
55:17
into the Middle East. But over time... that begins
55:23
to shift. So in some parts of Western Christendom,
55:27
for example, crusading becomes diverted. So in
55:31
parts of the German Empire and Eastern Europe,
55:35
increasingly crusading campaigns are conducted
55:39
along the eastern frontiers of Western Europe.
55:44
So into areas that today would be areas such
55:47
as northern and eastern Poland. the Baltic states,
55:51
Lithuania, that sort of area. There's a lot of
55:53
crusading in that area, and that may well have
55:56
diverted crusaders who might otherwise have gone
55:59
to the Middle East. The papacy also launches
56:03
a lot of crusades against its internal opponents,
56:06
which again will redirect crusaders from other
56:09
targets. Potential crusaders in Spain continue
56:14
to wage crusades against Muslims in the Western
56:17
Mediterranean. So there are various diversions,
56:20
but also there's a lot of wars in Western Christendom
56:25
which draw the attention of rulers. So there's
56:29
a war called the War of Sicilian Vespers, a war
56:32
over Sicily, fought between the Aragonese and
56:37
the Southern Italians, and to some extent the
56:39
Southern French. The Byzantine Empire is in a
56:42
long -term process of collapse that also draws...
56:46
warriors who might otherwise have gone elsewhere.
56:49
And then when you get to the 14th century, you've
56:53
got the famous Hundred Years' War between the
56:56
Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of France.
56:58
There's various wars within Germany. And all
57:01
of this draws attention away from the Middle
57:04
East. And then over the top of all of this is
57:09
the threat of Mongol invasion. Because in 1241,
57:12
the Mongols invaded Hungary and Poland. And particularly
57:16
in Hungary, but also in Poland, there was enormous
57:20
devastation. And there is a perpetual fear, perhaps
57:24
the Mongols will come back. As people are very,
57:28
very alive to the danger of a new Mongol major
57:32
offensive. In fact, no massive Mongol offensive
57:35
really took place. But they don't know that.
57:41
Fancy that, you mentioning the Mongols, because
57:43
I hope we are going to... be able to talk about
57:45
them in one of the next episodes of this podcast.
57:49
But before I let you go, Professor, in the popular
57:53
imagination, what's the thing that we get most
57:56
wrong about the Crusades? The Crusades are thought
58:01
to be simple. When I talk to people about the
58:04
Crusades, perhaps someone I've just met at a
58:07
dinner party or an event, and they say, well,
58:11
what do you do? And I say, well, I'm a historian.
58:13
I study the Crusades. The one thing they're confident
58:16
about is the Crusades were simple. Christians
58:19
and Muslims fighting each other. That's it. It's
58:23
as simple as that. And I'm not going to pretend
58:27
that there isn't an underlying conflict. There
58:30
is an underlying conflict between Christians
58:32
and Muslims. I'm not going to deny that for a
58:34
moment. But it's a lot more complicated than
58:37
that. There are lots of occasions when Christians
58:40
and Muslims work together, often to fight other
58:43
groups of Christians and Muslims. The causes
58:46
of war in the Middle East are complex. They can
58:49
be due to money and trade and commerce or personal
58:53
rivalries or population migrations. And in the
58:57
13th century, you've got the Mongols as well.
58:59
And they get there too as another reason for
59:03
other forms of conflict, other forms of alliances.
59:08
During the Crusades, people learn a great deal
59:10
about each other, and there's a great deal of
59:12
exchange of ideas and technologies between Christian
59:16
and Muslim societies. Artisans, architects, mercenaries,
59:23
falconers, shipbuilders, they crisscross Muslim
59:29
and Christian territory the whole time, conducting
59:32
their trade. There's a lot of interaction. And
59:34
I think perhaps the easiest way for me to explain
59:36
this is, with an example. Do we have time for
59:39
a quick example? Absolutely. Okay. This example
59:43
takes place in the early history of the Crusader
59:47
States. And it goes back to a figure I mentioned
59:50
before called Uzame Ibn Munkid. And his hometown
59:53
of Shai Zah in Syria is attacked by an army from
59:58
the Principality of Antioch, one of the Crusader
1:00:00
States. The army of Antioch attacks Shai Zah,
1:00:05
and the attack goes very badly. And so in the
1:00:08
middle of the night, the army of the Principality
1:00:11
of Antioch withdraws from the siege, trying to
1:00:14
use the hours of darkness to get away from the
1:00:17
siege and get back to its friendly territory.
1:00:20
But the army of Shizar realizes what's happening.
1:00:25
And so it sets out in pursuit of the army of
1:00:29
Antioch. And it begins to try and block the Principality
1:00:35
of Antioch's armies escape. So for a short time
1:00:39
it seems as if the army of Antioch is going to
1:00:43
get trapped and destroyed. But then one knight
1:00:47
steps out from the ranks of his army and manages
1:00:50
to hold off the army of Shizar for long enough
1:00:54
to allow his army to escape. That's the first
1:01:00
part of the story. The second part of the story
1:01:03
occurs a few days later when this knight who
1:01:07
had enabled the escape of his fellow crusaders,
1:01:11
he arrives at the town of Shai Zah, he knocks
1:01:17
on the door, knocks on the gates, and says that
1:01:21
he really admired the way the soldiers of Shai
1:01:23
Zah fought during their recent battle. Could
1:01:27
he come in and train with them for a while? And
1:01:30
so Osama Ibn Munkah's family invites him in.
1:01:35
shows him their hospitality, they train together
1:01:38
for a few days, and then this night goes home.
1:01:42
Now, I offer this story for two reasons. The
1:01:46
first part of the story gives you the kind of
1:01:49
story that you'd expect, a crusader army fighting
1:01:52
a Muslim army. The second part of the story adds
1:01:56
more complexity. There was plenty of scope for
1:02:00
friendships and for interaction. during this
1:02:03
era. Warfare wasn't fought in the modern sense,
1:02:07
where the thought of going to sort of socialize
1:02:10
with your opponents after a battle, that just
1:02:12
doesn't exist. It's a different concept of war.
1:02:15
During the Crusades, there are friendships across
1:02:18
religious boundaries. There are alliances across
1:02:21
religious boundaries, ideas, technologies, concepts.
1:02:26
They get exchanged. They learn more about each
1:02:28
other. So yes, there is a religious conflict.
1:02:32
But there's a lot of other things going on as
1:02:35
well. Isn't there also this famous story of Richard
1:02:38
the Lionheart battling Saladin and then Saladin
1:02:42
loses a horse and then Richard the Lionheart
1:02:44
sends him his own horse during the battle or
1:02:47
something? Yeah, it's not quite clear if that's
1:02:51
legendary or not. But even so, the interactions
1:02:55
between Richard and his commanders and Saladin
1:02:59
and his commanders are very interesting. Saladin
1:03:02
and Richard never met, but Richard admired some
1:03:06
of Saladin's warriors, and he was very good friends
1:03:10
with Saladin's brother. In fact, Richard admired
1:03:13
some of his opposing warriors so much that he
1:03:16
knighted them, making them formal knights within
1:03:22
his power to do that. Similarly, we have many
1:03:26
Muslim writers who describe how Saladin showed
1:03:31
compassion for many of the prisoners that he
1:03:34
took captive during his wars from Western Europe.
1:03:38
And many of these writers describe very positively
1:03:41
Richard the Lionheart or indeed other commanders
1:03:44
from the Third Crusade. So even in the Third
1:03:47
Crusade, a major climax of warfare between Saladin
1:03:53
and the Third Crusade, representing their rival
1:03:58
religions, as it were, even then, it's a much
1:04:01
more complicated picture than is typically given.
1:04:04
All right, last thing. I don't know why this
1:04:07
popped up right now, but wasn't there also like
1:04:11
a pretty crazy story of St. Francis of Assisi,
1:04:14
the famous saint, trying to go to Sultan's court
1:04:18
and convert him to Christianity or something?
1:04:21
Am I way off here or did that actually happen?
1:04:23
That actually happened. Okay. So that is in the
1:04:27
Fifth Crusade. And the Fifth Crusade was an attempt
1:04:30
to... So many colorful characters, yeah. There
1:04:33
are. During the Fifth Crusade, there was a massive
1:04:36
crusading army that attacked Egypt. The idea
1:04:39
being to conquer Egypt and use Egypt's resources
1:04:42
to permanently reconquer Jerusalem. And the crusade
1:04:45
itself was a military failure. But during the
1:04:49
crusade, amidst the fighting, Francis of Assisi
1:04:52
walked out of the Christian lines and crossed
1:04:55
into the Muslim lines. and then went to the court
1:04:59
of the Sultan al -Kamil, a descendant of Saladin,
1:05:03
and attempted to convert him to Christianity.
1:05:07
Because St. Francis was the originator of the
1:05:10
Franciscan order, which believed, among other
1:05:13
things, in trying to convert people to Christianity
1:05:15
through preaching and prayer. So he went to the
1:05:19
Sultan. He explained why he was there. He had
1:05:23
a debate, apparently, with the Sultan's intellectuals.
1:05:26
He didn't converse anyone, but then after he'd
1:05:29
had this debate with them, he went back to the
1:05:31
crusading army, and that was the end of his journey.
1:05:33
But you're right, it's astonishing. But again,
1:05:37
it challenges us to rethink modern ideas of warfare.
1:05:41
When we fight battles today, we are used to the
1:05:45
idea that armies fight battle in quite an absolute
1:05:48
sense. You're not friends with your opponent.
1:05:51
You don't talk to your opponent. You just fight
1:05:54
them and try and beat them. Totally different
1:05:57
in the medieval period. Wars take much longer,
1:06:03
and warriors have plenty of space for admiration
1:06:06
for their opponents, being friends with their
1:06:08
opponents. They still fight, although even then
1:06:11
they make alliances. But in some ways, it's a
1:06:15
little bit more like a sort of a contact sport.
1:06:19
There is plenty of room for friendship and socialization.
1:06:24
We even have examples of armies fighting each
1:06:27
other, and then after the battle, them having
1:06:29
a feast together afterwards. That's rare, to
1:06:31
be fair, but it can happen. It's a very different
1:06:34
way of approaching warfare, and very different
1:06:38
to modern -day concepts of warfare. Absolute
1:06:44
delight, these two episodes, Professor Morton.
1:06:46
Thank you so much for your time. Do you have
1:06:49
any sort of social media or websites, anything
1:06:51
you would like to share? Where can people follow
1:06:54
your work? Yeah, sure. So you can find me on
1:06:57
Twitter or X. Just type in my name, we'll find
1:07:01
me there. I'm also on, what is it, Blue Sky or
1:07:05
Instagram. You can find my books listed in these
1:07:09
places. And I've also got a YouTube channel,
1:07:12
the handle for which is at Medieval Near East.
1:07:16
And there's various videos there. Not particularly
1:07:19
good quality, I'm afraid, but if you want to
1:07:20
find out more about my stuff on the history of
1:07:23
the Crusades, you'll find it there. So, yeah.
1:07:27
Appreciate it. Thanks again, Professor. Thank
1:07:28
you very much for listening. Please subscribe
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