Latest / Complex Kids, Simple Solutions / Tiara Brumberg — Why “Clean Your Room” Doesn’t Work (And What Executive Functioning Really Means)
Transcript
- Michelle Choairy: Welcome to Complex Kids Simple Solutions, the podcast for parents raising complex and neurodivergent kids who are doing their best in systems that don't always make things easy. I'm Michelle Shoayde, founder of Special Education Concierge, a mom to a complex kid, a speaker, and an advocate. This space isn't about perfection. It's about real life, the hard days, the small wins. the moments where you wonder if you're doing enough, and the moments where you realize you are. Here we talk honestly, share practical insight, and simplify what feels overwhelming, one conversation at a time. You are your child's hero. Welcome to Complex Kids Simple Solutions. Today we have Tiara and she is a coach, creator, and former pediatric occupational therapy assistant who helps neurodivergent women and families build simple, sustainable systems for daily life. As a mom of three complex kids, she blends lived experience with practical tools that make home, school, and routines feel calmer and more doable. we haven't had anybody talk about the occupational therapy side of things that happen with our kiddos. So Tiara, welcome. Thank you. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about where you come from, what you, ⁓ just tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah. So, I, I've kind of lived in a bunch of places, ⁓ which is fun because I feel like that does help me with my job with relating to people from all over. I did grow up in California ⁓ and now I live in Birmingham, Alabama, which ⁓ I never would have thought coming from California. This is where it ended up, but I love it. was wondering that myself. I don't think anyone goes directly. It's always, think, circuitous to get here, but I love it. It's so green. Come on over. It's fantastic. But anyway, I kind of ended up here because of occupational therapy. I had young kids, a bachelor's degree in psychology, was a stay at home mom, and just felt like I loved what I was doing, but I just felt like I needed to be doing more. I just felt like there was more that was on my heart that I could be doing for people, especially with that bachelor's in psychology. I think that's usually for people from a place of wanting to help others in some kind of way. But it was just always... How do I do that? What avenue do I do? What job do I want to do? I didn't think counseling was a good fit. through a Google search, I found occupational therapy assistant under a two year program that I could do at nights while having young kids in Birmingham, Alabama. So my husband is from Georgia and Florida, but he went to Auburn. So he had friends up here. So that was that. So yeah, I got through my program, up, ⁓ I did skilled nursing briefly, but then got into an amazing dyslexia center in town called Alabama Game Changers, where I have worked over four years as an occupational therapy assistant, primarily working with kids with dyslexia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia, and also ADHD. So, yes. So, so part of occupational therapy, you know, is continuing education. And what I love about it is you can really get as niche as you want to with what it is that you want to learn about. And so I remember working at game changers, we get these face sheets of here's this new student who's starting, here's what they like, here's what they do. And they have ADHD combined type and they have ADHD combined type and they have, and I just remember. thinking like, oh my goodness, everyone with dyslexia has ADHD. It is like 100%. And then of course it was like, no, that's not true. It's just the kids who need more of an intensive program like they offer there are the kids who have learning challenges plus there's something getting in the way of typical school interventions being able to fill that gap because pulling them out can be distracting to their peers or it's not enough direct support or they look like they're paying attention. but they're not. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. No, I love this because I am actually, I do have a little five year old that I am ⁓ not my kid, but he's, he's one of the kids that I'm advocating for. And he is going through exactly this thing. It's five. It's the ADHD or trying to figure out pullouts, push ins. How do we address the learning disability that's happening? Right. Which we can't really even really put our hands on it quite yet on what it is that, but it's crazy. talk to us a little bit about that because I think that this is a good entry point into our conversation. Yeah. So I've always loved puzzles and problem solving and finding ⁓ connections and things that don't seem connected. And I'm just in general, a very curious person. I like to understand why systems are the way they are. ⁓ so working at game changers, you know, it was a wonderful opportunity for that. have these kids who come in who are highly intelligent, who have dyslexia, who've used all sorts of coping strategies, but all of a sudden they're not working as well because they've reached that level of challenge. it was from an occupational therapy perspective was really interesting because part of what we were doing in the beginning was parsing out how much of this is attention versus developmental vision challenges, like visual tracking, visual scanning, ⁓ because so many of those can look like ADHD, impulsivity, executive functioning challenges. So part of it was trying as much as possible to pull out those ⁓ very specific motor skills versus behavioral challenges for that arise with ADHD. And then a lot of times there's both. then creating interventions for kids that recognize that their eyes have trouble with visual scanning and they're probably going to need more breaks or we're going to have to think about what the subject matter is because there's also ADHD. it, I loved what I was doing. I thought it was amazing, ⁓ but I still felt like I was a little bit far from being able to make as much direct impact. as possible in these kids. We would get them to where they were reading ahead on grade level. They had all these decoding skills. They had all these hard skills where they could return to school. But then they were coming back for medication management and there was still a gap. They can read, but they're not turning in their homework. They ⁓ now are doing well on tests, but their backpack is a mess and there's a fight every night to get them to do homework. And so then it was... the executive functioning piece of all that. And that's kind of where my continuing education started going. And through that, learned I have ADHD. You I think the more you start learning about it, you're like, ⁓ that's funny. Like that sounds like me. then it happens enough times and you're like, this feels like more than a coincidence at this point. So yeah, so genuinely just noticing. So then I decided to move to ADHD coaching. I'm certified with the International Coaching Federation. And what I love about what I do now is a lot of it, my occupational therapy background, my understanding of sensory systems, proprioceptive systems, input, regulation, combined with being able to meet clients in their homes or combine that with that parent education piece and have more of a direct impact on families. ⁓ It has changed so much of my approach for how we manage our own kids with ADHD. And it has relieved so much tension in our home that it really put it on my heart that that's really the service I want to provide and help other people with. So it's been neat seeing like this path. So, okay. Tell us, what does that mean? What does executive function, you know, like Tell us, explain this to us because I think that we hear the term, but we're not 100 % sure. What does that mean? What does it look like in a day to day? And how do we mediate that? How do we help the kiddos with it? Absolutely. Yeah. Executive functioning. I think it is becoming, you know, a little bit more of a buzzword, but I agree. think even within that, there can sometimes be misunderstandings or misconceptions about all that those challenges entail, even starting to work with clients, they'll say, I don't think they have difficulty with sustained attention because you should see how long they play video games or like, kind of thing. so executive functioning skills are those higher level skills that develop last in our brain development. So brains develop from the back forward. So The stuff that we're talking about is all kind of located in the front and it's a really ⁓ complex system of connections between different parts of our brain that process all these different things and then organize it in a way that we're able to do things on a level that matches our intellect and our ability. So for kids without ADHD, that develops just naturally along with other things. And usually the demands placed on them from school, from society, from sports, are pretty well developed for where the typical brain develops in terms of what they can handle. So kids going into sixth grade who suddenly have multiple subjects and all of these things to balance, neurotypical kids, it's less of an adjustment. Kids with ADHD or just with executive functioning challenges, that brain development can be 30 % delayed from their peers. So now it's almost as if you have a third or fourth grader trying to manage a sixth grade workload in terms of... Being able to ⁓ start something, especially something that's complex or feels hard, or a lot of times these overlap. So another big one is time management. People with executive functioning skills typically have time blindness. So they perceive time differently depending on whether or not they are really interested in the thing that they're doing. So. Typically I'll ask kids like, you know, when you play video games, if you played for two hours, have you ever felt like it's been five minutes and you get upset that it's over so fast? Like, yes. How did you know? How did you know? I was in the middle of a level and it has been three seconds and my mom is lying. Like, and then it's like, okay, if I ask you to brush your teeth, like I don't have time to brush my teeth in the morning. Like, okay, how long does that? It's like 20 minutes to brush your teeth. Like, let's set a timer and really find out. So the things that they don't want to do feel like they're going to take so long that they just don't want to do them. So then that leads to procrastination, challenges with initiation, challenges with breaking up tasks and prioritizing what should I do first. If this feels like it's going to take forever, why don't I just do this other thing that I like better? but now all of a sudden I've never turned in science homework because that is always harder, more complicated. I have to find all my materials, which maybe I've lost because organization is a piece of executive functioning. ⁓ Being able to complete something that you start is a part. task persistence, being able to stick with something for a long time, especially things that are challenging. Being able to... Emotional regulation is a huge piece of that. So especially with these kids with ADHD, where they do have that higher intelligence, they have that lower frustration tolerance because they feel like I'm smart enough. Why can't I just fill in the blank? Why can't I just find my homework? Why can't I just remember I've got this thing that I've got to study for? And when they can't, they feel like they don't really have a plan for how to work at things that are hard because typically these kids can kind of coast for a long time on compensatory strategies using visual memory skills. And then when they reach that level of challenge, they can kind of shut down and become very frustrated. And then that's when we see a lot of tension in the home. Yeah. Well, welcome to my daily life. ⁓ As you started going through, was like, ⁓ yeah, that's from the time my son wakes up to the time he goes to bed. Yeah. ⁓ and, and it is, it's so true. Like you say, pick up your backpack, get your lunch, get your stuff together. idea. And then he's in my bedroom playing with his phone. It's like they have no idea how to do it. this is interesting. I, for example, with my son, I say, clean your room. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. And he lays down. Yeah. My daughter, I say, go clean your room. Then she picks up the stuff on the ground. She kind of, you know, what she needs to do. She doesn't do it well. Right. You know, ⁓ because I'll be honest, Tiara, like nobody. I'm a freaking perfectionist, so nobody's going to do the job the way that I want them to do it, right? This is long talk. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. We've been doing it longer. That just makes sense. You've been doing it your whole life. You've had more practice than them. You're better at it, for sure. ⁓ my gosh. It's like, you know. Anyway, she comes in and she's great because she will do and she will clean it up. You know, I go in there and I put all the crayons with the crayons. put the, the, know, the paint with the, and she's like this artist. so she just, she loves all her stuff around her anyway. My son, on the other hand, it's like, go clean your room. ⁓ so I started actually doing things differently. I start by pick up your shoes. Yes. And they belong. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And then pick up your dirty clothes and put it in the dirty clothes, laundry baskets. So I have found that I really truly need to like, yes, step by step for everything for him. please teach me. Oh, amazing. Okay. We're doing this. Let's Let's listen to this and do it. Okay. What do we do? ⁓ my gosh. Yes. First of all, your instincts are a hundred percent correct. Something like clean your room feels huge. It can mean dusting, sweeping, vacuuming, cleaning the wall, like cleaning the mirrors. Am I getting this like paint off of this table that's been here seven years or am I, know, like that could be endless. Right. So they don't know where to start and they don't know what clean means. So getting more granular about What is one thing that you can do, especially at five, where you are gonna slowly get into those, ⁓ one of the executive functioning skills I didn't touch on is working memory. So that's being able to follow multi-step directions. for example, like, hey buddy, you've got soccer in 10 minutes. I need you to get your cleats, get your water bottle and meet me in the car. Okay, goes to get his cleats, sees a dog. What happened? So yes, so being able to remember the steps, thinking about, my water bottle is right next to me. Let me grab that first and then go get my cleats and I'll even put them on in the car because we're kind of running late. being able to take directions, organize them in the way that's more efficient and that makes sense. And so that you can remember them and then acting them out is part of that working memory. I love that for his age, you're giving him one step at a time. think that's fantastic. almost 12. He's not five. he's almost 12. Oh, the five-year-old is the one you... Oh, well, hold on. five-year-old is the one that I'm advocating for. My son is almost 12 years old. He should be getting a couple of them. And he does want something that he wants really, really, really a lot. if we're going out and we're going somewhere... ⁓ and I say, go get ready, put your shoes on and get your stuff. He will do it. Cleaning the room. ⁓ forget about it. Yeah. So I, well, think that that has something else going on there, but anyway. Yeah. What is the incentive or punishment that's a reaction to him cleaning or not cleaning the room? Exactly. yeah, exactly. Why is he doing the boring thing? Like what is the... Interesting. Right? Yeah. So that's, that's a piece of it is why. Yes. Because that's a lot of these kids. They're like, if there's no punishment or if the punishment is they just have to hear you nagging, that's not so much a punishment. These kids are so good at tuning you out. So they're like, ⁓ you can say whatever you want. My brain is somewhere else lady. I've played a level of Minecraft in here. Like, so, so part of it is, ⁓ are there activities that he's already taking part in without earning access to them? So looking at A lot of times when I work with families, we talk about what are expectations based on their age that are appropriate and that are what are opportunities he can have to earn extra access to things. So if he has a phone, if he's playing games with his friends, if he likes to go out into the neighborhood, do whatever in the time, ⁓ in the morning, what are the expectations after school? What are the expectations for bedtime? What are the expectations? So first kind of getting that down first and starting small. So. Some parents are like, well, we want him to clean his room, do two chores and get all his homework done. Like, okay. Like he's, but then we're the problem, you know, obviously then becomes all they feel like is I'm in school all day and then I'm home and I'm working and I never get to do anything fun. So starting small with things that feel doable. So for example, my son is, just turned 12. So his expectations after school are bed is made, clean clothes are put away and drawers are shut and no dirty clothes on the floor. So that's how he gets access to 30 minutes of his rest time, screen time before he starts his homework. So, ⁓ and in the beginning of setting that up, we had to go up and look with him because there is, you know, sometimes the, ⁓ yeah, like it's totally, I've done it because they know if they're check or not. They know if they're the kind of parent who's gonna follow up. over time though, they've learned. When I've I've done it and they've checked and I didn't, well now my time ends five minutes earlier and I could have just knocked that out, that was annoying. So they start just doing it. So that's part of it is turning those into expectations. And then like you said, keeping those very specific, it's dirty clothes off the floor, it's bed is made. And even get what is bed is made look like talking about that in advance. like for some families I work with, there's like 47 decorative pillows that all have a really special home that is super important. And for some it's like, blanket pulled up, I'm done. I don't even have a pillow. sleep like a rabbit. It's like, that's cool. Like, well, yeah, my son has his calming corner that we put together for him. That's where he sleeps. then he still has his bed up on top. But it's like, the problem is, is that I know he can't fold anything, right? Yeah. And so, and honestly, like, my son doesn't even make it up to his bed. Yeah. And I'm like, expectations should I have? Yeah. Yeah. I can't even get my son to go to sleep in his own bed, which, know, I think sometimes it's on me, but I, I have found and not just with my son, not just with my daughter, but even with my husband. Okay. Yeah. You pick the fights that you really want to fight. Right. Sometimes things are, you know, It's just not worth the fight. Absolutely. Now, should we, you know, do this? Like, should, should we, of course we still need to teach them how to keep the clean room. We still need to teach them those things. But sometimes like for me, okay, well, if he's sleeping and he prefers to sleep on the ground, I don't know that I really, that it really matters too much to me. he, is he getting good sleep? Um, yes and no. Um, he, he has always had a problem with sleeping. And so he wakes up in the middle of the night and he's hungry and he goes and he gets something to eat and, then he comes back. And sometimes we find depending on what we have in the house, like, you know, Halloween time, there's chocolate wrappers underneath his little. you know, it's, you know, it is what it is. But yeah, but you know, the thing is, that as moms or parents, which parents as parents, we really need to pick which battles we're going to fight. And sometimes we have to, to, you know, just not see certain things. Because to me, it's much more important. that he picks up those shoes that are all over the floor, pick up his clothes that needs to go in the laundry basket than it is to let me fold this blanket and put it on top of where I just slept, right? So you pick the battles, but I love, this is something that I just started doing. Like I could not understand, go clean your room. And then he would go and lay on the ground. couldn't understand why. And this is why they don't know how to do it. And they don't know how to break up those those things. Now, you said you worked in schools, right? So I have with kids with kids. Yes, they had a classroom there, but it was mostly outpatient or kids who would come for like ⁓ eight hours to do language therapy and then OT. Okay. But you did ⁓ look at goals and things like that. ⁓ yeah. Which is really influences a lot of how I, I mean, that is part of coaching for sure. want to be, we need to be clear about what it is you're trying to do or how will we know that you've done it. So even like with the bedroom thing, ⁓ I love that 100%. not picking out all the battles that you don't need to pick. think when my kids feel like the thing they want to do is different than the thing I would like them to do for whatever reason, we try to frame it in terms of experiments. So buddy, it sounds like you're saying you want to do an experiment. You think you sleep best and are most comfortable when you are on the floor. How do we know that that experiment is working? How hard is it to wake you up? Like if it's really hard to get you up in the morning because for whatever reason, is that part of success? Like if you, takes forever to fall asleep. Like how do we know that this is a good sleeping spot versus somewhere else? So we can look at it in a way that's measurable and that he can start reflecting on giving him that opportunity to follow his gut and see if something is working or not, but also learning how to flex and adapt and have those measurable goals of how to assess and think about, is this working or is this a bad habit? Yeah, no, for sure. I think that, you know, taking one thing at a time, just like we talked about, right? One thing at a time. Yes. So one of the things that I see a lot of in schools and with these types of goals is that the goal is so large that it's that it's like, ⁓ so how are we gonna do this? So we really need to piece it. And so that's the reason why I brought this up is because a lot of times in the schools, ⁓ because let's be honest, like not, for example, me, my family, my son had O.T. for a while, but we can't do everything outside of the school, right? Like he already has speech, he has, behavior there. There's all of these things that he's doing in the afternoon. sometimes you kind of have to pick and choose. So you do rely sometimes on the occupational therapist at the schools to develop these goals for the kids. And I really do like OTs and SLPs because they actually really think better than a lot of the, like even some of the teachers because some of the goals, they're just grabbing it from anywhere and they're just putting it on there. And so that's what worries me. So if you were, you know, to, to, to coach a parent about this, maybe you need to coach me. So, you know, how would you do that? How would, what would that look like? So we can make those smaller attainable goals. Yes, I love that. This is actually very timely because I have a client who they're changing him from tier two to tier three services. And the mom sent me his list of what his goals were. And one of them was ⁓ he will be able to use his calm down box independently. Okay. And they said, if he's not able to do this, then he's going to do a special education assessment and all these other programs. I said, OK, so is this like after a week of treatment? Is he doing it independently? Does that mean no cues whatsoever? Like, is there a scaffolding period where it's like, If he uses his teacher can cue him twice. And if he uses those cues to use it, does he get credit for using the calm down box? If it takes two cues, is it only one cue and he gets credit? Does it have to be completely independent? No cues. He by himself gets the calm down box. And is there any progression throughout the school year of working towards that? ⁓ Because that is way too vague. It's way too vague. for how long does he use the calm down box? Like if he If he stares at you and grabs a calm down box by himself and slap some fidget for a minute and puts it back, does he get credit? Because he used it. He is not calm now. Did he change his state? Did he re-regulate himself? And as defined by what? Is he able to participate in class discussion without being disruptive for how many days? How many cues is he allowed to receive where he still gets credit for doing it because he's making the choice to change versus needing to get pulled out. So literally. drives me crazy. I, so that is, so when I work with parents, that is something that we are very clear about. And I do think that is where occupational therapy really helps in terms of coaching is I do want to get very particular because these kids are little mini lawyers and they, God bless their super smart brains, but they are like, If you give me a loophole, I will slap that calm down box and stare you right in the eyeballs and I will want my check mark so that I can get extra recess time or whatever. they know how to take those super vague goals and use them to their ability so they can do what they want to do while also kind of doing the thing you're going to give them a treat for. you do have to get very clear and very specific. And when I'm working with students, I always say like, Dude, that was so smart, you got me. Like you totally got me. So now we found that's a whole. So we're going to clarify a bit because I think you know that that wasn't the spirit of what we were trying to accomplish and writing this goal. So also teaching them that cognitive flexibility, which is a piece of executive functioning of like, this is the thing we did before, but we've learned something new and now we're going to adjust together. yeah. Yeah. it makes sense. My goodness. Seriously. I mean, I love that you call them lawyers. I have heard them called so many things, but I have not heard them called lawyers. But I love that. It's true. Like they're going to debate you on everything. But you know what's funny? Like my daughter who's nine, she is the biggest debater I have ever met in my life. And sometimes it's like, errrr. You know, she makes it. She's like, well, you drink diet Dr. Pepper in the morning. Why can't I? And she just figures it out. But it's going to make her so successful as an adult. And I'm like, these thinking patterns are things you want people to do. These are the people you want to hire because they are going to find the inefficiencies in your system because they are not going to tolerate doing something that doesn't make sense. Yeah. But it just kills the mothers and the fathers. definitely regulate yourself and know what kid you have. Like being continually surprised when you're. I mean, genuinely, it's so it's such a huge foundational piece because it's not just about their executive functioning. The biggest foundation for that is that emotional regulation piece. If you are doing the right thing and you are saying to your kid, you know, pick up, ⁓ you know, what are the things you need to do to clean your room? And they say, have to pick up my clothes. have to make my bed. I have to close my drawers. Fantas- and by the way, making eye contact. So we affirm, we both know the things you're saying. Yes. If your tone of voice is that, they're fine. If your tone of voice is, we have done this a million times. What is it you're supposed to do in there? We have talked about this. You do not get your screen time. Tell me what it is you're supposed to be doing. Are you sure? Are you sure, that we're not supposed to be insane? I have your yell. Here's, well, do an experiment, right? I'll do it with one of my students. Do an experiment. Try talking to your kid one day, one way like that, and try talking the other way, because kids with ADHD and executive functioning challenges are going to match energy and seek stimulation. It is way more exciting to have a conversation on that heated level, but it's also a diversion and an avoidance tactic from doing the thing that you actually want them to do. Yeah. Geez. Well, all right. Lots to think about right there for mom and dad out there. listen. Well, this has been so good. getting to the end and I might have to have you back for part two or something like that. But for right now, so I always ask at the end, towards the end of the episode, What is the one thing that you would like the parents to take out from what we just talked about? Yeah, I think leading with curiosity and also making sure that you are finding a way to tap out when you need to so that you can be in control of how you are, what kind of regulation are you providing? Because your kid is going to match and absorb whatever it is you're bringing to the table as well. If they come in hot and you're able to kind of stay in this zone, ⁓ it really does kind of limit the potential of what can happen versus ⁓ matching energy and all of that. And also the other thing is, you know, I would say these kids wake up each day and they want to be your favorite and they want you to think they're brilliant and they want you to love them and they want you to brag about them. And they want you to just think they are the most amazing with it together kid that has ever walked the earth. Anything that they do that is contrary to that, just getting curious about what's getting in the way of them being able to be who they want to be. That sounds good. Yeah. mean, we need to all try and I will. I promise you I'm going to, I'm going to do the experiment. We'll have you back. And then I'm going to tell you how the experiment went. I love it. Yes. It is not perfection. You are a human too. And also modeling that to your kid and coming back and being like, buddy, like I did not handle that right this time. I brought me to the table and what I had today wasn't great. And like, so that they see that. I mean, that's huge. No, we are not perfect people raising perfect people and they're going to grow up to be imperfect people who manage imperfect people. So modeling how you handle that and the grace and forgiveness you give to yourself and to your children. It's just, it's just trying. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. where do parents find you? Tell us really quick. Yes. So you can find me at them, middle coaching.net. ⁓ I'm also on Facebook, the middle coaching. and yeah, I'm also on LinkedIn, same, the middle coaching. ahead and find me on there. ⁓ yeah, I'd love to connect. And we'll have that all in the show notes. So thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll do part two. thanks everyone. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. Thank you.