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Strictly Come Hamster - Season 17 (featuring Mark Cockram & Dan Pinn) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:35
It is. I sold it.
0:39
And this is the great journey of life otherwise known as Strictly
0:45
Come Hamster. And I am one of your hosts
0:48
today, Joan Ford. And as ever, I'm here with Oh
0:53
no, I'm not allowed to compliment you anymore, am I?
0:55
No, no more with my uncharismatic, unintelligent,
0:59
and frankly full of bizarre opinions.
1:03
Mr. Rod Brown. It's certainly true.
1:05
Hey Joe, how are? You doing?
1:07
Oh, loving life, especially given what we're going to talk
1:09
about today, I. Think this is going to be a fun
1:11
old podcast? Yeah, we're doing season 17,
1:13
aren't we? So last time we were in 1969 we
1:17
were at the end of 1 decade. This podcast we're ten years
1:20
later. We're at the end of the 70s, so
1:23
think back those of us who were around in those days.
1:26
Britain was in disarray. We had rampant inflation, 40%
1:29
inflation. Strikes were everywhere.
1:31
Even ITV was on strike. But nobody need panic as
1:35
Margaret Thatcher is just around the corner and she's going to
1:37
bring hope and unity and joy to all of us.
1:41
So good. Times are coming, haven't they
1:44
just? But yeah, we're doing Season 17.
1:47
And you know what? I've got to say it before we
1:50
start. This is tatty, embarrassing,
1:55
lowest calibre Doctor Who. I will describe it as a turgid
2:00
quagmire of vapid characters, amateur dramatics, mirthless
2:05
antics and clattering sets. Can I guess what's coming next?
2:10
Go for it. You love it.
2:12
Well, I do love it. Yeah, those are not my words.
2:16
That is what is online by the Radio Times.
2:18
That's what Radio Times says about the homes of Nimon and
2:21
season 17. And this was hated.
2:24
My God, this was hated and we will come to her.
2:26
I think a lot of our comments have have picked up.
2:28
This was hated by fandom at the time.
2:31
We may have turned a corner a little bit, you know, I.
2:33
Think we might have done, but that's what's online.
2:35
That's what Radio Times are currently saying about this
2:38
series. So.
2:39
There were some loud Gary Russells out there in the ether
2:41
telling you this is an embarrassing farce, but
2:44
fortunately we've got two farming and charismatic guests
2:47
to say otherwise today. We're going to put them right
2:49
tonight, but to help us sort out our crin off from our Anna,
2:53
we're going to be joined by a Duff pair of podcasters, a
2:57
collection of hairy, grubby little men.
2:59
But we love them anyway. They're going to help us decide
3:03
which of our stories is going to be lifting that liqueursion
3:06
glitter ball and which is going to be sent back in time 400
3:09
million years to enjoy the primordial soup.
3:12
So let's meet today's guests. And one of them is a new timer
3:17
to the hamster verse. He's a virgin in this They Say
3:20
podcast. Dan, please introduce yourself.
3:23
Yeah, hello. I'm Dan.
3:26
Yeah, I'm. I'm popping my hamster cherry
3:28
tonight. In fine company.
3:32
Yeah, yeah, yes. I'm really happy to be here.
3:36
Sporting a magnificent beard, if I might say so.
3:39
Yeah, it could do with a bit of a trim.
3:41
To be fair. It's gone a bit.
3:42
Uncle Albert from Only Frozen. Yeah, yeah.
3:47
Dan, can you do me a massive favour because I know you've
3:50
podcasted elsewhere. Will you just quickly let people
3:52
know where you've been before this?
3:54
OK, yeah, so my first one was with Luke Malloy on Lost in
4:02
Gallifrey or Lost on Gallifrey Podcast.
4:05
That was my first one. Then I've done a couple with
4:11
Dave Rennie, Kettle and the String and then towards the end
4:16
of last year I did What's in the box with Jim Allenby and they
4:20
were all tremendous fun. You're prolific now, then I
4:24
expect big things. Oh.
4:25
He's a pro. I don't know about that.
4:29
Fantastic. I'm beginning to settle into
4:30
doing it, yeah. You're in good company tonight,
4:34
you're in safe hands. And our other guest for tonight
4:38
is a seasoned old timer. Oh, I know something else.
4:42
Jesus. You are lucky.
4:44
Would you? Like to introduce yourself,
4:48
Mark? Hello.
4:50
Yes, I'm Mark and you may have heard me on other podcasts.
4:53
I've done a few podcasts as well.
4:55
My first podcast was in 2012. I did about 200 episodes of the
5:00
Blue Box podcast. I did about 50 episodes of
5:03
Neurology. I've done about 50 episodes of
5:06
the current one, which is all of time and space.
5:09
The slowest podcast in the world.
5:12
It's quality rod, not quantity. I feel like the the the
5:16
Apotheosis of your podcast journey, though, is when you and
5:19
I did a four part commentary on the horns of nine months.
5:22
It was it just, it was a a highlight, a personal highlight
5:27
of my podcasting I. Swear we were flirting within
5:30
about 2 1/2 minutes on that recording.
5:31
Well, I mean, it's the effect you have on it.
5:34
Has on stock series. No, absolutely not.
5:37
No. Dan is starting to look very
5:39
worried indeed. To be fair, I'd.
5:41
I realise now I'm old news because Dan's on the scene.
5:44
So, yeah, I do appreciate I am just you know.
5:47
Get out of the way. Shut up.
5:49
I wanna speak to Dan, so I understand that it's fine.
5:51
I know my place. But my wife has reliably
5:54
informed me that I am totally oblivious to people flirting.
6:00
With me, I'm up my game. Then don't.
6:02
Worry. Yeah, you.
6:03
Got the challenge? There, Joe.
6:05
Joe's not that subtle. I've already.
6:06
Complimented you have. Fabulous beard, OK.
6:09
Joe, I feel like he's thrown down a gauntlet, do you know?
6:12
I've got to say though, you know I've never said this to you
6:15
before on an actual recording, but I swear your your voice
6:19
would be perfect for ASMR. Say something now, clearly.
6:23
How seductive is his voice? One of my friends at work has
6:30
decided that she's going to exploit me by creating an only
6:35
fans thing. Not in that way, just audio,
6:41
audio wise and just get me to read out various things.
6:46
I mean, listen, she's always guys.
6:48
I don't know. I don't know.
6:50
I'm sure we've all got to. Hear it myself.
6:52
A bit of a semi already. Anyway, Ron, back to.
6:54
You, Joe. That's just, you know, you wake
6:57
up in the morning, isn't it? That is every man Mark.
7:00
What are you talking? About.
7:03
All right. Yeah.
7:03
Fair play. So let's rain back to filth and
7:06
get back to Season 17. Yes, Joseph.
7:09
So before we get into stories themselves, let's just have a 5
7:13
minute talk about the season overall and I'd love to hear
7:16
your thoughts on the season as a whole.
7:18
What you thought when you first saw it, What you think of it
7:21
now, Mark, go for it. OK, well, this is where I came
7:25
in. I was six years old.
7:27
I know, Rod, you're probably, what, in your 20s by then?
7:37
Yes. So I I got vague memories of
7:43
City of Death kind of pieced together, but the the one I
7:47
really remember watching from start to finish was the Horns of
7:50
Nyman. And that's the one that got me
7:52
hooked. And I think season 17, obviously
7:57
I've got this emotional attachment to it, which makes me
7:59
somewhat biased, but I just feel like it's it's the end of what I
8:04
would call the imperial phase. So from 1963 up till 1979,
8:10
you've had Daily Daily Derbyshire's music, You've had
8:17
oh this is the last time we get to hear anything from Dudley
8:20
Simpson. It just feels like classic who
8:26
wears. From 1980 onwards it's takes on
8:30
a totally different tone and it's got a new, fresh, new look.
8:35
It's look trying to be very 1980s, whereas this feels like
8:39
the end of that sort of that first chunk, if you like.
8:43
It's almost like the comfiest pair of slippers you could
8:45
possibly put on, isn't it? Oh.
8:47
Absolutely. Yeah, Dan.
8:49
What's your experience of season 17?
8:53
Yeah, yeah. I think, I think I was about six
8:56
months old when this. Came out this season.
8:59
So, so I don't I don't remember it on broadcast.
9:02
Shame. On you.
9:03
Yeah. Yeah.
9:04
Sorry about that. Yes.
9:07
So I suppose my my earliest memories of it would have been
9:11
when the VH s s come out. But it was so it was very
9:15
because we had City of Death quite early on and then quick.
9:19
That was followed by by Sharda, wasn't it?
9:21
And then and then Destiny in the Dark and then it took.
9:25
Then basically they left the rest of the season until quite
9:28
late on didn't they So And I think by then I'm I think
9:34
because I don't I don't know what would I have.
9:37
Yeah, so I I think towards the end of the VHS is I kind of
9:40
stopped buying them. And so it wasn't until the DVDs
9:43
came out that I saw the likes of Horns of Nine and and Nightmare.
9:48
You were saving the best of last, weren't.
9:50
You. Oh yeah yeah definitely.
9:51
Definitely. But but yeah so so it's it's
9:55
yeah, it was very kind of staccato for me to this season.
10:00
I may I may have seen a couple of them on UK Gold when I went
10:04
around to like mate's houses and they were watching it on on that
10:07
but yeah so so but yeah I it's it's a strange one so I've I've
10:15
I've got issues with with the creature from the pit because
10:19
because of the circumstances that I came about getting
10:23
getting seeing that but I'll I'll tell you that's a little a
10:29
little teaser for you for later on.
10:34
And then? Yeah, but I I mean, I loved City
10:37
of Death when I saw that on on DVD.
10:40
Yeah, Sharda, that was a good one.
10:43
Destiny and Daleks. Yeah, I I really, really enjoyed
10:45
that one. I I know it's got its faults,
10:47
but, you know, so yes, so I think overall it's got more
10:53
highs than lows. So I I quite enjoyed this
10:55
season. It's good, Joe.
10:57
I've got to figure it Down's going to be the most balanced of
10:59
all of us on this call. I love season 17, but I have to.
11:04
I had to When preparing for this.
11:05
I had to battle with my own brain, because there's the
11:08
objective part of my brain and there is the subjective part of
11:11
my brain. And the objective part of my
11:13
brain tells me that this is very tatty television indeed.
11:18
It's Doctor Who on a shoestring, and what hits the screen
11:23
occasionally is unacceptable television.
11:27
The subjective part of my brain kicks that aside completely and
11:32
just has a riot with a seasoned is fizzing with ideas like wit,
11:37
colour, a brilliant doctor and companion and robot dog and just
11:44
once or after another that's just full of energy and fun.
11:49
It's one of my favourites. This is 16 or one or two sort of
11:53
my go to seasons of Doctor Who, or when I'm in a bad mood I'll
11:56
always put these on. So I love 17.
12:00
I unapologetically love season 17, despite all of its flaws,
12:04
which are very apparent in places that I'm sure we'll go
12:08
into later. Yeah, well, I was 13, not 20.
12:12
Thank you, Mark. I was 13 when this went out and
12:16
this was my first full season that I was audio recording.
12:20
So I had these on audio tape and probably listen to them for the
12:24
next 1520 years after that on audio, probably more than I saw
12:28
them on video even when they came out.
12:30
So I know the dialogue and the sound of these, you know, back
12:33
to front. I absolutely love these this
12:36
one. Excuse me, can I interject
12:38
quickly? Then go for it.
12:39
Right. So if you know the soundtracks
12:40
of these, I'm going to do a very quick quiz musical quiz of
12:43
season 17. What's that?
12:52
Nightmare of Eden. Oh God damn it.
12:53
It is all right. Oh, sick of death.
13:00
Come on. OK, one more.
13:08
Cliffhanger too. Oh, you are such a geek.
13:10
Get on with it. Go on, I'll believe.
13:11
You. I'll believe the sound of that.
13:12
Story go on. Yeah, So I loved it.
13:23
Then I loved it and I've heard it so many times.
13:25
The dialogue just sings in this series.
13:28
It's witty, it's intelligent. I started writing, I think for
13:32
nearly every one of my reasons on every story to start with.
13:35
I bought the ideas and I've I've tamed it down because that's
13:38
going to get bit dull. But just the ideas in this
13:40
series, they're just absolutely on fire.
13:43
I don't think creatively and imaginatively.
13:46
There's a better season, Season 17.
13:49
So yeah, I loved it. Then I joined Fandom.
13:52
I had this period and was absolutely shocked to get the
13:55
Doctor Who Appreciation Magazine, which absolutely
13:59
ripped it to shreds. They hated it, but it still
14:03
does. I looked at the the recent DWM
14:05
poll, so a 41 Tom Baker stories. City of Death obviously is #1.
14:11
Destiny comes in at 30, Eden's at 33, Creatures at 35 and nine
14:16
months at 40. So it's still not popular series
14:19
there's? Only one story that people
14:21
generally rate this year. Yeah, City of Death.
14:24
But I think we're going to turn that around tonight.
14:27
So before we get into round one, should we start with some of the
14:30
comments from our listeners? And as with our previous
14:34
podcast, now our guests are going to take on the joys and
14:37
pleasures of reading these out. So let's start with our first
14:41
batch of comments, and let's start with Mark.
14:44
OK, I have my list here. I can get it to open.
14:55
OK Jason Thompson's been in touch.
14:57
Hello Jason. And they say the season that
15:01
received fan wisdom in the 90s said was cheap nonsense with
15:04
undergraduate humor and was therefore rubbish.
15:07
Well, Cobblers to that. Cheap.
15:10
Yes, But so did pretty much all TV at that time.
15:13
Does it have shortcomings? Oh, dozens of them.
15:16
Is it fun? Yes.
15:18
And are there some brilliant story ideas in there?
15:21
Absolutely. That's basically what I said,
15:24
wasn't it? Great minds think alike.
15:30
So Next up we've got Michael Storm.
15:34
While inflation problems do affect the studio bound stories,
15:38
they don't really look that much worse than anything either side.
15:42
However, while as a younger fan I love Tom's OTT Ness in this
15:47
season as a miserable bastard, I do find it great so little at
15:52
times. What really sells the season,
15:55
though, is the chemistry between Tom and Lala.
15:59
Yeah, what point do you reckon they got at it in this season?
16:02
Oh, by by City of Death story stories.
16:05
Yeah. Yeah.
16:06
City of Romance, isn't it? What happens, What happens
16:09
happens in Paris days. And papered it didn't.
16:11
Stay. Oh, no, it didn't.
16:11
Stay in Paris. No, quite.
16:13
Came back to the Acton Hilton. You you can tell that, you can
16:16
tell they're in the the honeymoon period low of the of
16:19
their relationship because it feels the next season.
16:22
You can tell when they've fallen out and whereas in this it feels
16:27
like it's all. General lack of eye contact is a
16:29
bit of a giveaway. The.
16:31
Occasional kick, yeah. Me, me and Rod are a bit like
16:34
this from episode to episode. You know you can tell when.
16:36
We're being nice to each other. Which one's Tom and which one's
16:40
Lala? That would be saying.
16:42
Oh, I'm. I'm Lala.
16:43
Come on. Yeah.
16:44
Thank you. He He wears the fox better.
16:50
Yeah, well, you know, if you've got it, flaunt it, Joe.
16:52
That's what I say. I look.
16:54
Great in the full outfit as well.
16:58
Oh, there's an image right Next up, we've heard from Fraser
17:02
Gregory. Oh Jesus Christ, here we go,
17:04
here we go. Buckle up everyone.
17:07
Here we go. Season 17 is probably Graham
17:11
Williams finest. What really lifts it above the
17:14
rest is his script editor, who sprinkles magic through each
17:18
story. Tom Baker absolutely devours all
17:21
the lines Douglas Adams gives him, while Lala Ward comes in
17:25
with a more vulnerable elf in Romana that remains the perfect
17:29
foil to the Doctor. John Leeson is amiss as canine,
17:33
but David Brierley makes his own mark on the role.
17:36
It's a season packed with laughs and high concept sci-fi that
17:39
sets out to do what Doctor Who really should entertain the
17:43
family, and it really succeeds in that.
17:45
Not just a table season, it's a proper vintage 10.
17:50
How annoying. I agree with every word.
17:54
Right, so Next up we've got the awesome Psy heart and he says my
18:00
second favorite season with my absolute favorite story in it
18:05
where it all began for me and the Doctor.
18:07
Romana 2 and K9 will always be the best ever TARDIS team for
18:12
me. Stories that are fun, funny, but
18:15
with big concepts at their heart.
18:17
Gorgeous season and not the worst.
18:20
PS Cloris is the best jungle ever seen in Doctor.
18:23
Who? I think that's right, I feel.
18:26
Hard to argue. I met Psy the other day.
18:28
He's a very tall chap, isn't he? Oh God yeah.
18:31
The first time I saw him, I just spent about half hour looking
18:34
up. And he's just as lovely in real
18:37
life as he is on the podcast. I could hear him saying those
18:40
words as Dan was reading that out.
18:41
You know. OK, well Next up from me we have
18:47
heard from. Not really Mitch Ewer.
18:50
OK, now we're going to be dancing with tears in our eyes.
18:53
Let's see the late 80s fan consensus of season 17 as an
18:58
idea of who was sorely mistaken. Sure, Destiny is rubbish and
19:02
Nimon is awful. I know she got me to read this
19:05
one out, but everything else is fantastic.
19:09
Could even be said to be the least real who before JNT got
19:14
his hands on things. So Next up we've got Gareth
19:17
Boley and he says it's an OK season, but only OK from the
19:23
classic series. My least revisited city of Death
19:26
is stand out due to music, Paris filming and being my first VHS.
19:32
I'm kind of pleased there's someone in there with a negative
19:35
opinion. It would feel a bit disingenuous
19:38
to put out an episode where everyone in the world loves
19:42
season 17. Gareth, we obviously, we do love
19:44
you and it's always lovely to hear from listeners, but you are
19:47
wrong. But in this case, when you are
19:49
wrong, yeah, don't. Worry Gareth, I'm going to beat
19:51
couple of the stories in the back, so don't.
19:54
Worry whoa. Oh, don't you?
19:57
I've got off. Here as well, don't worry.
20:00
OK, Next up we've heard from James Lark.
20:05
I'm glad fans got over themselves and learned to enjoy
20:08
season 17, because it's never not fun.
20:11
It's not wrong, you know. I think there is.
20:13
There is a period of your life where you take Doctor Who
20:16
terribly seriously, obviously. None of us here because.
20:18
We've always been there, done it.
20:19
But then you get to sort of see, I wasn't born when this was on,
20:23
so that does make me the youngest of the four of us.
20:25
Well, I'm just making a point about age because it's age
20:28
specific argument. And then you get into your sort
20:31
of mid 30s to early 40s and you just love all this stuff.
20:35
You start looking around at the bloody miserable world you're
20:38
living in and go, do you know what I want to watch?
20:40
Myra Francis camping it up for four episodes and that'll be
20:44
fun. Sorry, back to the comments.
20:45
But I but I think I think also though that those sort of books
20:50
that came out in the 90s was it how Stammers Walker you know
20:55
brilliant as those books were. But I think they also shaped
20:59
because I mean when they came out I would have been in my
21:01
early teens and I've not seen these stories and then I've got
21:04
someone who's a lot older than me saying this is rubbish and
21:08
you kind of thought oh OK that that's that must be must be
21:11
correct you know kind of thing. And I think that's kind you, but
21:13
then you kind of get to a point where you you see them for
21:16
yourself and you would form your own opinions and I think that.
21:20
Absolutely. We've had the same thing in the
21:21
80s. I had the Bakita Time book which
21:24
is a follow up to a celebration and a lot of the the opinions in
21:29
that are are formed by people who watched the the stories back
21:33
in the 60s and had their own opinions and that's kind of the
21:37
agreed consensus and not till you actually see it for yourself
21:39
do you think? Actually no.
21:40
I quite like that. But it was the main fan voice.
21:42
Like I say, I joined DWAS at this period and they they
21:45
absolutely hated it. I can't tell you the love.
21:47
I mean, we think, you know, the Chippers period is controversial
21:51
this day and age and people say negative things online, but my
21:55
God, what they were putting in print back in these days.
21:57
I mean there's, you know, people with burning, burning tortures
22:00
about to attack the BBC. They hated this.
22:03
Well, luckily they really eased off when JNT took over.
22:06
Didn't. Well, they did for the. 1st.
22:07
Two years. They did for two years.
22:09
I mean, I've been slagging off DWM today for basically giving a
22:13
positive appraisal for everything they're bringing out
22:15
these days. But I understand why they do it,
22:17
because they're marketing the show.
22:19
It just means it doesn't have any critical worth for me, is
22:22
the problem. However, I think going in the
22:24
other direction and basically slagging off everything, that's
22:26
a bit of a strange approach as well.
22:28
And what you just said, they're done about those books.
22:30
They were really sort of intelligently written as well,
22:33
and they were sort of the handbooks especially.
22:35
They were almost like academic books, weren't they?
22:38
So as a young fan reading those books, it does feel like a
22:41
textbook that you're reading with with facts in it rather
22:44
than opinions. Fortunately, we've spent the
22:47
last 10 to 15 years via podcast, completely pulling apart those
22:52
dreadful opinions and telling them whenever, and we'll
22:55
continue to do so tonight. Well, I thought I was weird at
22:58
the time because I was. I loved her and everyone else
22:59
was telling me I was wrong, but I.
23:01
Don't want to be the one to tell you but.
23:05
Right, Joe tells me every day. Back to the comments.
23:11
OK, yeah, so Next up we got the lovely Luke Malloy.
23:15
I I would do the accent but I don't know if I can get.
23:17
Luke Malloy. I do not know if I can get high
23:20
enough or squeaky enough. Always get excited to watch
23:26
season 17, then realise it's mediocre whilst doing so.
23:30
I think that's a fair comment from a A new series fan going
23:34
back and watching Classic Co Can I?
23:36
I'm sorry. I promise you we will get to the
23:37
stories eventually and maybe I'll edit this out later, but
23:40
I'll just tell you a very amusing story about the last
23:42
weekend, because I just spent the last weekend with Luke
23:44
Malloy in Alborn, right? And he was sent up to the wrong
23:48
room in the pub. And there was a.
23:51
Man in the room naked, wearing a towel and he came running out of
23:55
that room so scared he was going to jump in our bedroom and sleep
23:58
with me and Mark. But no, no, he got the room
24:00
wrong anyway. Sorry.
24:02
How much did you pay that guy to go in his room, Joe?
24:06
It was you. Wasn't it, Joe?
24:07
Come on, admit that I. Shall tell you where that
24:09
weekend ended. All right.
24:15
Well, Next up we've heard from Daniel Knight.
24:18
Hello, Daniel. And Daniel says glorious.
24:22
Yes, it's a little rough around the edges, but that's because
24:24
Graham Williams had 60% of the budget compared to Hinchcliffe,
24:28
thanks to crippling inflation. It was the first season I saw
24:31
all the way through, and I was spellbound by the doctor and
24:34
Romana's adventures. As an adult.
24:36
I appreciate the wit and sophistication of the scripts
24:39
and ideas, even if the budget sometimes can't cope with the
24:42
ambition. OK, so Next up we've got Paul
24:45
Quinn. Oh dear, you watch yourself with
24:49
this one. Why?
24:49
Why am I getting all the sweary ones?
24:52
Sorry. I don't.
24:54
Well, yeah. OK.
24:54
I would like to say down that Rod did divvy these out, OK.
24:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah, OK. It's ropy as fuck If they
25:04
haven't got the city so right. It's hard to see what the best
25:08
story. Eden has the best script.
25:11
Creature looks really good in places, can grieve, can shoot
25:15
Daleks game, Graham Crowden. What a mad basket.
25:19
And Sharda could have topped the lot.
25:23
I would. I would have been screaming out
25:25
for that, Colby. That was the best of the lot.
25:29
Right. So that's the end of our first
25:30
batch of comments. So let's dive into our first
25:34
story. So let's go to Mark.
25:37
Mark, pick your story and give us your three reasons why you're
25:40
either championing or condemning our story.
25:45
OK, well, I'm going to go big. They say go big or go home.
25:48
I'm going to go big. It's the haunt of Diamond, isn't
25:51
it? Obviously.
25:52
Obviously. Obviously.
25:54
OK, three reasons. First reason, there's some great
26:00
sci-fi ideas in there. You've got the whole thing with
26:03
the the electronic maze that keeps on shifting and it's a a
26:07
circuit in a computer layout. So it's it's giving you a sort
26:14
of a flip on an old ancient text the Minotaur story and we're
26:23
we're updating it we're making it sci-fi.
26:26
You've got the second reason I think is Graham crowd and it's
26:30
just amazing. I just, you know, I appreciate
26:36
other opinions are available on that particular character, but I
26:41
think anyone who can really outdo Tom Baker in the crazy
26:44
stakes, that's got to be worthy of mention.
26:48
I think he's just just so watchable and he's just.
26:53
Almost having to underplay it for the first time all year
26:56
because he knows he can't possibly.
26:58
There's no way we're going to chop it.
26:59
No, that's it. That's it.
27:01
And the third thing for me, I think is a really good story for
27:05
Romana. I think she gets to go center
27:08
stage and I think that's quite unusual for a 70s Doctor Who
27:13
story. And I think she's great, You
27:15
know, she really grabs the bull by the horns if you.
27:18
Like, Oh, well done well. Done.
27:21
Fantastic. So shall we go to our comments
27:24
on The Horns of Nimon? So let's start with Mark,
27:28
Donaldson says. Gets a lot of stick from fans,
27:31
but if we remember their aired over the festive season, we can
27:34
reframe it as a glorious pantomime version of Greek
27:37
mythology. Oh.
27:39
I don't want to say this Michael storm the low light, mostly
27:42
because it's dull. Tom and Crowden are clearly
27:45
unimpressed with the material and are hissing around.
27:48
The vast majority of the guest cast are damp squibs.
27:51
The only real highlights is Romano getting to be the Doctor
27:55
and the decaying Corps. James Lark says yes, it is panto
28:00
fun, but one of those pantos where the director fails to
28:03
exercise any discipline or control on the cast.
28:07
We're all having a much better time than the audience.
28:10
Tom's worst performance redeemed slightly by Lalla, taking it
28:14
seriously. And Simon gips Kent.
28:16
No explanation needed. It's about 12 years old, isn't
28:21
he? No.
28:23
Right. I think he's OK.
28:24
Fair enough. John Benzaglia.
28:25
Goofy, but a lot of fun when it comes to unintentionally funny
28:29
performances. Malcolm Terrace's jowl shaking
28:32
babbling Rail rail supreme. Oh, it's so great, King.
28:37
Scum Fraser. Gregory, Fraser.
28:40
I take back everything I said. You're spot on.
28:43
Forget the shaky sets and Wobbly monsters.
28:45
Forget Romana getting to be the Doctor and the Greek myth
28:48
plundering storyline, Graham Crowden delivers the single
28:52
greatest performance by a supporting actor in the whole of
28:55
Doctor Who in this story. If you don't like this one, then
28:59
I'm sorry you don't like fun. It's a fucking delight.
29:03
Keep it. Yes, everyone's swearing.
29:05
Very swearing. That's it.
29:07
Agreeing with Fraser, I can only say one thing.
29:10
I feel dirty. You have brought this calamity
29:14
upon me. Come on please, somebody say it.
29:18
You meddlesome Hussey oh. Well done.
29:21
I was keeping that one. Rash dummy, says Panto.
29:24
Fun all the way. Lala Ward shines in her second
29:27
best outfit and everyone seems to be having a whale of a time.
29:30
I totally get why people will be put off with the tone, but it's
29:33
a warm hug for me. David Gillespie, Pratt says, get
29:36
such a bad reputation for being the worst of the season.
29:39
And when documentaries talk about issues in the late 70s,
29:42
they tend to use clips from this one.
29:44
Wholly unfair, Graham Crowding gives one of the most fun terms
29:47
in the 1st 26 years. Oh, it's a good thing Luke
29:51
Malloy is cute. Still don't understand it's cult
29:54
bad status. It's not cult bad, It's bad bad.
29:58
So is that comment Ian Banks has saved only by Lala Ward's
30:03
performance? There's quite a negative budget.
30:05
Yeah, Daniel Knight. Daft on the outside, but the
30:07
concept is quite dark. Graham Crowden's performance is
30:10
memorable to say the least, and his descent into madness is
30:13
actually very well done. It's this Lala Ward's finest
30:16
hour, very probably. Jovolu, Ellen said.
30:19
I get why people don't like this one, but I do.
30:22
It would lose something if Graham Crowden was less over the
30:24
top. Well, do the accent.
30:28
Not after your abysmal. One last time, Joe Louella's
30:31
from America, guys. OK, James H, once you accept
30:34
it's a comedy. It's brilliant.
30:35
The classical references work well.
30:37
Crowded is a panto villain. I can believe in ship ship
30:40
captains who value money over safety.
30:44
That seems pretty realistic. And a gullible fall or tall
30:47
don't. Just don't remember, just don't
30:50
mention the sound effect. Jesus Christ.
30:55
What's that do you mean? Do you?
30:59
Mean. Yeah, I love that bit.
31:03
OK, so let's go to Dam. Dam.
31:05
You going to be won over by Mark's glowing endorsement
31:09
there? Yeah, I I I think prior to
31:12
watching these for for this episode, I would have said that
31:17
The Horns of Diamond is 1 where I would kind of sit on the fence
31:21
a little bit about. But I was pleasantly surprised
31:26
watching it how how much fun it was how how much I enjoyed it
31:30
and and it got me thinking and this is going to sound like a
31:33
backhanded compliment but I but I mean it in a very well meaning
31:38
kind of way. It's this season's time lash I I
31:41
like time lash but it's this season's time lash because it's
31:46
it's got like it's got the over top performances it's got the
31:50
naff sets it's got the duplicitous monksters in it you
31:55
know sort of thing but it and it's all it's one of those ones
31:57
where no matter how bad it looks and some of the performances in
32:03
it it's so bad it's good and and yes so I I'm I I'm happy to put
32:08
this one through to to the next round and I think I think like
32:11
like you were saying Mark you know that performance by by
32:13
Graham crowd and his his soul deed is is is is just brilliant
32:20
but we we all I mean we've we've we've all laughed about how over
32:24
the top it is but also it's quite layered as well you know
32:28
like when he's talking to the nyman he's he's almost sort of
32:33
you know cowering before him and and all this sort of thing and
32:36
and sort of sucking up to him and all that kind of stuff
32:40
whereas then obviously there is the overblown you know bits and
32:45
bobs you know when he goes back to you know to talk to the rest
32:48
of of the people on his planet kind of thing and but but yeah
32:53
there's so much lays to that and and again I picked up Malcolm
32:57
Terrace the the code Was great. So good.
33:00
I especially. When his pants split as he felt.
33:04
Actually he spends most of episode two walking around with
33:07
a massive split in his bag. It's just it's just amazing that
33:11
it's that they didn't. No one goes, oh, OK, come on.
33:13
Let's let's just say oh you know But it's funny because a lot of
33:18
the time he's just shouting his lines.
33:21
He's he's just like everything's a shout.
33:24
And I it's it's I I like I've been watching old episodes of
33:29
Grange Hill and he pops up in that as one of the parents of of
33:33
one of the kids is. It the same acting style, Dan.
33:36
Exactly the same format. It's amazing you know that that
33:41
he's he's he's he's in these two shows and and I don't know, I
33:46
don't know if he's, I don't know if he's taking the Mick or he
33:50
just feels that that's the way it should be pitched for these.
33:53
Types We see the scene. Now you know.
33:56
My child has not got into Grange Hill.
33:58
It was a computer malfunction. I just had a vision of a
34:02
classroom door open while someone's being taught.
34:05
Just putting his head through and go weakling scum walking out
34:08
together. Whoever said about the wobbling
34:10
jowls, yeah. Yeah, it's terrible, wasn't it?
34:13
It was like it was. Like Hermitude set and I think
34:20
I. Think then you've got like, but.
34:22
But putting those aside, you've then got like a really
34:26
understated performance by John Bailey, who plays.
34:30
Oh yeah. Decent.
34:32
He's also Victoria Waterfield. 'S dad?
34:34
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Edward.
34:35
Edward Waterfield. And you only see him for what,
34:40
10 minutes of one of the episodes?
34:42
It's such a good performance. Feel for him in a way that you
34:45
don't for sold it, you know you you think oh you you're going to
34:49
get what's coming to you mate. Whereas whereas with him you're
34:53
kind of like, oh man, this. This I feel like whatever
34:55
shortcomings there are with the budget, I think he goes a long
35:00
way to selling the threat of what the Neiman can do that
35:05
whole. Although they.
35:06
Should call him aside. Exposition Eddie.
35:09
Because he just turns up and spouts exposition for 10
35:11
minutes, doesn't it? Because you can't have any
35:13
flashbacks to this great invasion of the planet that he's
35:16
on. So you just have to explain now.
35:18
But it's a heroic performance, like you say.
35:20
I believe Chris Chipnall was a massive fan of this story as
35:22
well. No wonder his era was so.
35:25
Good. Just that scene.
35:28
And in fact, Stephen Moffett hates this season.
35:31
I saw a quote from Stephen Moffett saying he thought, Sit,
35:34
your death was a great bit of telly and the rest of the season
35:37
was hap. That's bizarre on it to me.
35:40
He's probably like the the nearest we've come to Douglas
35:43
Adams. Writer in the New.
35:45
Series, I think I know Jokes. I got it on that.
35:51
Point Where's more than that? Particular process, yeah.
35:55
OK. Well, thanks Dan.
35:57
So Joe, we missed out a couple of comments.
35:59
We finished the comments quickly.
36:00
My fault. We did Jason.
36:02
Tom, we've had so many. Jason Thompson said.
36:04
It's fun, but the epitome of what the season as a whole gets
36:07
criticized for. Tom is completely out of
36:09
control, mugging his way through it and doing all that silly
36:13
stuff with canine mouth to mouth and the whiz bang bong sounds
36:17
from the TARDIS. What is wrong with her?
36:19
I love. That.
36:20
Scene. Andy Parkinson says The first
36:23
story I remember seeing as a kid.
36:24
My God, Mark, just like you. Graham Crowden owns every scene
36:28
he's in. Kieran says So bad it's fun.
36:32
Dre says absolutely. Hilarious.
36:34
And the space-time visualizer says never fails to make me
36:37
laugh, even if not for the right reasons.
36:40
So, Joe, we've got Dan voting it in.
36:43
Are you going to vote it in? I've got a feeling you are.
36:46
Well, I'm actually, I was on the fence with this one, despite the
36:50
fact that I do have a podcast that is entirely inspiring.
36:53
I hear this story, you know, that whole thing I was saying
36:57
about objective, subjective, This was the one I was most
36:59
torn. And this was the one I said to
37:01
you Rod, that I agonised over 3 days and just could not not put
37:05
it through to round two, even though my brain was telling me
37:08
to put it to to leave it here. So no, it is going through.
37:12
Otherwise, I was going to say to you, if you speak again, I will
37:15
have you eliminated. On the well done, I feel like
37:19
there's going to be a lot of quoting tonight.
37:22
How many handsome men have you seen tonight?
37:29
Despicable. Worm.
37:30
But against. It I would say this is
37:33
television. It isn't a panto at the end of
37:36
Brighton. Pier Seth's story is remarkably
37:40
undercooked in this, even though he's kind of supposed to be the
37:43
hero of the piece and the aliens, the the 9/1, the heads
37:46
that came off. That was a great idea and they
37:49
should have realised that, but obviously they couldn't do it.
37:52
So those are the last one by three against.
37:53
But the reason that it's going through is one.
37:56
I think it's a a brilliant and ingenious way to invade by, you
38:01
know, offering the poison challenge.
38:03
We're going to give you all this technology to this horrible
38:06
machismo race. We're going to give you weapons
38:09
and this so you can go out and dominate the Galaxy by tricking
38:12
them into thinking there's just one of you doing it.
38:14
And actually you're going to open the door and then a plague
38:17
of locusts will come through as such a great idea.
38:20
And the way that plays out is brilliant.
38:23
I'll just repeat what everyone else has said.
38:24
Lala Ward pretty much as Doctor Who.
38:27
This is our first female doctor that we ever got because Tom Bay
38:30
is just pissing about. I don't know what he's doing,
38:32
but Lala Ward is literally taking control of the show,
38:34
which is amazing. I love the mythological
38:37
references, and there's a lot of that in 16 and 17, and it's
38:41
doing different, something completely different from
38:42
Hinchcliffe, which was sort of riffs on all those old horror
38:45
movies, these sort of literary mythological references.
38:49
It it adds some depth to the stories.
38:51
Like you kids maybe. I hope.
38:53
I don't know. You guys were there at the time.
38:56
Sorry. Maybe you did get small though.
39:01
Oh yeah, you were very young. Sorry.
39:04
Maybe kids did go and learn more about this stuff.
39:06
I hope they did. And of course, Graham Crowden's
39:10
crowning performance. Someone said it was one of the
39:12
best ever turns in Doctor Who. I don't know what got that
39:15
thought, but it's certainly one of the most unforgettable turns.
39:18
And that sequence at the end between him and Lala Ward.
39:22
Is one of the. Most chaotic and dramatic Dr.
39:27
Villain confrontations. You're ever going to, I mean his
39:30
death. You never forget it, do you?
39:32
I'm going to say something quite controversial here.
39:34
I think it's just a a tiny bit camp.
39:37
Really. Yeah.
39:39
Yeah. You don't.
39:39
Say. Yeah.
39:41
We don't do camp on this podcast, I'm afraid.
39:43
No, no, absolutely not the. Butcher's podcast on the On the
39:46
Planet. Basically drowned in
39:49
testosterone here. I mean, I get it.
39:53
You, you know, the people who don't like it.
39:55
I do get it. You were saying earlier about,
39:59
you know, seeing it differently at different ages, And as a kid,
40:02
I loved it. As a teenager, I just found it
40:04
incredibly embarrassing. And you just get to a point, you
40:07
know, like in your life, don't you, Rod, where you just stop
40:11
giving a shit about what other people think and you just think,
40:13
I like it. It's fun, you know?
40:16
Well, actually, Ma, I don't think I've ever given a shit
40:18
what people think because I've always loved.
40:19
It. I've loved it all the way
40:21
through. Despite people telling me it's
40:23
naff and rubbish and pantomime, I've never bought it for a
40:26
second. I love this.
40:27
I think it's absolutely brilliant.
40:29
Is it because it's camp though? I think partly that I just think
40:34
it's a fantastic story. Like you were saying, Joe, The
40:37
Great Journey of Life is such a brilliant idea and it's just I
40:40
think they tell it really well. Bear in mind, this is TV when
40:44
yeah, budget was absolutely. They had nothing to play with.
40:47
There were no pennies left in the purse at all.
40:49
And they tell this huge story spanning different planets and
40:54
deep space, and they, you know, they do it all by telling a good
40:58
story and they have got good actors in there.
41:00
I think Graham Crowd and I wouldn't say it's the best of
41:03
the show's had, but he's bloody amazing in this.
41:06
I love him. I buy him.
41:08
But you know, we've got a huge tableau for this show and we're
41:11
telling this story, so we start in space and they can't do it
41:14
terribly well. I think the black hole bits
41:16
begin with is probably visually the kind of weakest bear, but
41:20
they do clever stuff. So to show the.
41:22
Corridor works, doesn't. It the corridor works and the
41:24
fact that they slow the picture and the sound down to give you
41:28
the suggestion of gravity, I think that works really well.
41:31
What about that ball that's like a rice crispy going around that
41:34
the TARDIS bounces off. Oh, OK, not so good.
41:38
But then we go to the planet that's been duped.
41:40
And yeah, Graham crowd. I think Graham crowd does give
41:43
you full range of emotions. We see him at the beginning.
41:46
He's totally in control. He thinks he is he.
41:48
He's even, you know, bragging that he's got the Nim on where
41:51
he wants them. He he thinks he's totally in
41:53
control. We go into the power complex and
41:57
again, really clever storytelling.
41:58
They haven't got the budget to show the walls shifting.
42:01
So they do it by sound effect and it's really subtle.
42:04
You don't see those walls ever moving.
42:06
You just hear the sound and Tom gives a reaction and it's
42:09
changed. And I think that really.
42:11
Sells it the most creative sort of disguising the limitations by
42:17
doing lots of corridors that you've ever had.
42:19
Because it it's constantly rearranging.
42:21
So it's the same set, but it feels different.
42:23
It feels like they're in a lab room.
42:24
It does. There is so much cheating,
42:26
though. I mean, when we go to Crinoth,
42:27
we were just talking about, you know, it's just another dress
42:30
set, a quite poorly dressed set. But this is another Planet Belly
42:33
Salit, and John Sessam's production acting, as you said,
42:38
really kind of sells that. So they're doing all this
42:40
trickery. And I think throughout this
42:41
whole season, actually, music and sound effects particularly
42:44
really cover a multitude of lack of budget.
42:48
And so I think it's a great spanning story, sells it really
42:51
well. Joe, I've written down exactly
42:53
what you just said. Move over Jodie Whittaker.
42:55
This is our first female Doctor. She's dressed in a frock coat.
43:00
She's got her own Sonic screwdriver.
43:02
She does all the main parts of the story.
43:03
She bonds within Nathan's. She confronts Soldid in really
43:07
angry scene. She, you know, protects the
43:09
Anathans when they're in the power complex.
43:11
She Shields all the Anathans from the Naiman attacking.
43:15
She even takes the Doctor's teaspoon to investigate the
43:18
trans mat and she gets the closing shots of the episode.
43:20
And actually the season, it's her smiling usually.
43:23
That's the Doctor smiling at the end of the episode.
43:25
Slash season. It's Romana here.
43:27
So yeah, I'm going. To ask Dan or Mark this because
43:30
they're both straight and so the answer will definitely be yes.
43:34
But you know when Lala Ward gets really angry, so I'll turn you
43:37
on a little bit. Funnily enough, no, I love it.
43:41
Really. I think.
43:43
She's amazing. But no, it doesn't.
43:46
Suck. I think I'm more fluid than you
43:47
are then. I've always, I've always been on
43:51
the the side of Team Tan. Yes, awards.
43:57
High 5 Dan. Yep.
44:00
We'll see you both back for season 16.
44:02
Oh no. Wait, that's what it is?
44:04
And the last thing I'm going to point, Joe, you just said, were
44:06
people talking about or were were kids going to look at this?
44:09
I can tell you a story. So I was in my third year at
44:12
secondary school. We had a geography teacher who
44:14
was well into his 60s. Real fuddy Duddy old guy, He
44:18
said at the beginning of the lesson, I'm not going to talk to
44:20
you about geography today. Did anyone watch Doctor Who on
44:22
Saturday? To which obviously my ears
44:25
breaks up, and everyone else, well, well, what Hell's he
44:27
talking about? And he spent 45 minutes.
44:31
Making PAPI and mache naimans. No.
44:33
He talked us through all the Greek mythology illusions in
44:36
this story, on why it was so clever.
44:38
Everyone else was asleep. I was.
44:41
That's when I was aroused, Joe. I was aroused at that moment.
44:43
The only time you've ever paid attention at school.
44:46
I had a geography last night. I know.
44:48
So yeah, it was, you know, it was attracting the kids and it
44:51
was attracting, you know, the older audience as well.
44:54
So now I absolutely love this. This is going through.
44:56
How could it not? Can I just like say a very quick
44:58
word for the terrorist Dicks novelisation which I feel like
45:01
these latter end novelisations of Tom Maker's time get a real
45:05
bad rap. There's a prologue at the start
45:08
of this which shows the Sconon war and empire spanning decades
45:14
and in a couple of pages it tells this sort of Game of
45:17
Thrones esque warfare over the years.
45:21
And really as it and Soul Deed is characterized as somebody
45:25
that has risen up the ranks far beyond his ability to do so.
45:29
So Dicks has actually watched this and gone.
45:31
This is the stuff they can't do on the screen.
45:33
I'm going to give this a real sense, you know, I'm going to
45:36
add add a lot to it, but also take these characters and give
45:39
them sort of motivation as well. It's a great book.
45:43
And if you're still not convinced that this is a good
45:45
story, even if you're going to, you know, maybe you're doing the
45:48
marathon or whatever, the great journey of a life and you're
45:50
watching all the episodes. If you're not enjoying the
45:54
story, just focus on the supporting artists.
46:00
This was pointed out to me when I I did a commentary for a
46:04
friend's podcast, and I'd know I really picked up on it that much
46:07
before. Maybe I just was paying more
46:08
attention to Lala Ward. I don't know.
46:10
But it's Oh my God, it's hilarious.
46:14
They're just. Is that the the blonde girl in
46:17
the back when when Romana's talking to Seth?
46:21
There's a couple of them, yeah. Yeah.
46:22
And they're it's like. Her eyes are just really scary
46:26
and intense something. It's really weird.
46:29
She's earning her face. Yeah, yeah.
46:30
Yeah. Yeah.
46:32
There's one that's very androgynous.
46:34
I spent the whole story, I guess.
46:35
Yeah. Or is that girl?
46:37
I can't figure. Out with the curly hair.
46:38
The curly blonde hair. Yeah, we know the one well.
46:42
So Horns of Nimon is definitely going through four for four.
46:46
Damn. Would you like to pick your
46:48
first story to raise or chastise?
46:51
Oh. Yeah.
46:53
I'm going to go with Sharda and it's it's a hard one to review
46:59
purely because there have been so many different versions of
47:04
it. It's it's not the fact that it's
47:06
it's only like half done or half finished or whatever.
47:10
It's the fact that we've got so many different versions of it.
47:13
You've you've got the Paul McCann version you've got the
47:15
the one where Tom Baker you know did all of the sort of narration
47:20
and the linking and all that sort of stuff and then you know
47:23
we we we've just got the the animation and and then finally
47:28
they've chopped the animation down into 25 minute episodes.
47:31
So it's it's quite hard to kind of judge it purely because which
47:38
one do you do you go for. So with this, I'm kind of basing
47:42
this actually on the the, the stuff that they've actually
47:45
recorded and also the potential that this story had.
47:51
So I really like Sharda. Like I said earlier, I had the
47:56
VHS cassette when it came out and we had the, you know, Tom
48:00
Baker. Sharda.
48:01
What sort? Of.
48:03
Business going on and it's weird as as you know like I say I
48:09
would have been I don't know probably 13 maybe when when that
48:13
video came out it didn't bother me that that it wasn't finished
48:18
and and I think a lot of that is like I say is down to that you
48:23
can see how good this could have been had they been able to
48:27
complete it. And and I I was kind of like
48:30
what are the what are the things in it that I I really really
48:35
enjoy And I think the first one is Tom Baker and his performance
48:40
in this. I think like we always we talked
48:46
about that perceived fan wisdom and I think at this point
48:50
everyone was going Oh yeah Tom's performance is over the top and
48:54
you know it's too larger than life and all this kind of stuff.
48:58
But I was kind of thinking if he continued to play the doctor as
49:02
he had in season 12, six years on, it would have been really
49:08
boring and you would want some sort of development in seven
49:11
years, you would expect there to be, you know, and and I think in
49:15
in this one you can, I think by this point you can tell the ones
49:20
Tom enjoys and the ones that he doesn't.
49:24
And there's two reasons that that he enjoys it or dislikes
49:28
it. And I think one of them is the
49:30
script. So you've got this awesome
49:34
script from from the pen of of Douglas Adams.
49:38
I can understand that if you don't get on board with with
49:41
that type of humour then this might be problematic for you.
49:45
But for me it it I I I love Hitchhi because I I love
49:48
everything that Adams has done. So I think he's really enjoying
49:52
the script, getting his teeth into that material.
49:55
And also I I think when he's surrounded by my next point
50:00
which is such a fantastic cast he loves playing off of all of
50:06
those great actors and and like like like he's been brought out
50:12
in a lot of those comments as well.
50:13
I I think this season him and Lala as Romana they they they
50:19
work brilliantly there's such a great chemistry and and you you
50:23
can you can really feel that so so I think Tom Tom's performance
50:27
in this is is is is excellent like I say then you've got the
50:32
got the cast you know so they're just all of them are are giving
50:38
the best performances 100% all the way through it So like I
50:43
think it's really sad because Pooro's pooro Dennis Carey this
50:47
would have been I suppose his biggest part in Doctor Who so
50:51
he's kind of wasted in track and because and and and also in even
50:56
more so in time lash whereas in this he's just brilliant as
51:00
professor Cronotis you know it's it's it just it just works he he
51:04
you know it's just so good then you got Christopher Neem as as
51:09
as Skygra and again I mean bless him they they put him in the
51:17
camp costume you could ever believe I.
51:21
Mean. That's my entire wardrobe.
51:23
How did he well? Yeah.
51:25
I mean the hat, I that's the bit I don't well, the hat and the
51:29
bag. What if they lost that?
51:34
Then I could. I could kind of cope with it a
51:36
bit better. Do you know what Dan?
51:38
On the behind the sofa, Matthew Waterhouse is watching with
51:40
Colin Baker, right? And towards the end of the
51:42
story, he's lost the hat and he goes, Matthew Warehouse goes,
51:46
no, he goes now he just looks like a reject from The Tomorrow
51:49
people. It's the hat that makes it,
51:51
Doctor. Who?
51:53
Yeah I suppose and and the carpet bag as well.
51:57
Yeah but but he's he's fantastic as as skaggering and and kind of
52:02
as as the as the story goes on you kind of you know because you
52:07
get that reveal at the beginning where he's got the globe and
52:09
he's he's taken the minds of all of those other other people and
52:12
stuff and you you don't know where he's going with this but
52:15
but you know it feels like you know rather than wanting to to
52:20
to to you know take the universe like most villains do he he
52:25
wants to become it really isn't he but his mind and everything
52:29
So that's really cool. I think Daniel Hill's good I
52:33
even like the guy that plays Wilkin as well and and and you
52:37
know I mean again just a small part but he's absolutely
52:41
brilliant in it and yeah Victoria Burgoyne as well as as
52:46
Claire I I I get some really good bits in it and I I just so
52:49
I just think the the cast is just wonderful and then my final
52:53
bit is I I think there's some really really good location work
52:59
in the whole of this season but but Cambridge it just it just
53:03
looks so good and it and it kind of really sells the story and
53:09
makes it yeah just kind of elevates it amongst you know
53:12
kind of and and so I I feel that that you know the potential of
53:17
this story it whether it could be as good as cities of death
53:22
I'm not so sure but it would come down close I think and and
53:28
so I I would want to put this one through to the second round.
53:31
Fabulous. Should we go to our comments,
53:35
John Ben Salius is delighted to have this in complete form.
53:38
Contains an abundance of imaginative and wacky concepts.
53:42
Skagger's You Always Makes me laugh.
53:46
Bafflingly, Jason Thompson says Sharda's never managed to grab
53:50
me. Seems over long and plodding
53:52
whenever I've seen any version of it.
53:54
Michael Storm says pretty good. I think it's unfinished.
53:58
Status has bigged it up a bit because watching the animation
54:01
it shows six part per wee syndrome as we get a lot of
54:04
padding. Good padding, though, Daniel
54:07
Knight says a bit of a curates egg.
54:10
Christopher Neem is the antithesis of Gray and Crowd and
54:13
being quite measured, but no less entertaining.
54:15
It's two very different approaches, isn't it?
54:18
The Krags are a bit rubbish and it's all a bit rambling.
54:21
Maybe I'd like it more if I'd seen it as a kid.
54:23
James H says far too long. Not as clever as it thinks it
54:27
is. Better than City of Death, but
54:30
if they'd been finished, it wouldn't have been, wouldn't
54:32
have had a great reputation. A mediocre end to the season,
54:36
and I dread to think how some of the effects would have looked on
54:38
screen if they'd been finished. David Gillespie Pratt Surely
54:43
we're due another attempt to finish it soon.
54:46
It's a hard 1 to get a handle on.
54:47
Bits of it are good. Some of the studios scenes
54:49
though aren't the most dynamically directed and maybe
54:52
we've been saved from some poorly realised visuals.
54:55
Overrated, perhaps? Spiky Neil says over long
54:59
there's enough material in the script for a snappy 4 parter,
55:02
but six is far too long and Romana gets nothing to do for a
55:06
full 2 episodes beyond be gloated at and explained to by
55:10
Skagra. It's OK.
55:11
Not great. We've got Fraser Gregory's
55:15
dissertation on the Sharder here.
55:17
It's Prepare yourself folks. I'll try and do this fast until
55:21
we get the definitive Puppet version.
55:23
The Blu-ray one is the best we have, and then it falls flat due
55:27
to not having any studio time for Tom and Douglas to work
55:29
through the script and refine it.
55:31
It feels rather stale in pass as a result.
55:33
And no one can criticize Chipnall's PowerPoint.
55:36
Yes, I'm looking at you, Joe. If they give a free pass to
55:40
Romana, being forced to watch Skagra's slideshow in A
55:43
Clockwork Orange style. But the footage we have is
55:46
gorgeous and puts pay to the myth that Pennant Roberts was a
55:49
journeyman. Oh, he was Tom and Lala punting.
55:53
Hunting around would be enough to put it through, but Skagra's
55:56
costumes seal was the deal. Keep it.
55:59
Herald of Creations that I recently watched the animation
56:02
of Sharda. The whole first episode feels
56:04
like a sketch rather than a sci-fi show.
56:06
I think if it had been made as intended it would have been too
56:09
long and clunky. Andy Parkinson Sharda has more
56:13
versions than I've had hot dinners, but it's a great story
56:15
and it's a travesty they binned it half made.
56:19
Big orange, Michael says Fandom thought it was a classic because
56:22
we couldn't see it. It's good but padded.
56:25
Joe L'allan the story? No, I'm not going to do it.
56:27
The story of how it was made is almost as interesting as the
56:30
story itself. Great recycled Douglas Adams
56:33
concepts. Funny lines, bit long.
56:35
And Ian Banks has the final word, a bit of a mess frankly
56:39
so. What is this madness in these
56:42
comments? So let's go to Mr. Cockrum.
56:46
Are you going to endorse Dan's view?
56:49
Well. I do feel sorry for.
56:53
Dramatically. For Graham Williams, let me let
56:55
me make my point. I feel sorry for Graham Williams
56:59
because he's just been handed a really tough gig.
57:04
He's taken over from Philip Hinchcliffe.
57:07
Philip Hinchcliffe has just, you know, to use common parlance,
57:12
spaffed the all the budget up the wall on his final story.
57:18
What does that mean? Well, I'll let you know this
57:22
date on there, Joe. Yeah.
57:23
Yeah, Cool. Anyway, So, yeah, his first
57:27
season, you know, he's not got an awful lot of money.
57:30
We have, you know, very lamentable stories that perhaps
57:35
shouldn't have made it onto the screen, but did.
57:39
Yes. Looking at you, Underworld
57:42
season 16 is a marked improvement and this season
57:45
feels like it's the first one where he's really got a handle
57:48
on the budget and he's going to really go out and finish on a
57:51
blockbuster. He saved all his money for
57:54
Sharda and it gets canned because of all the industrial
57:58
action. And I think the BBC, you know,
58:01
reading between the lines, it looks like they wanted to prove
58:04
a point to the unions. I think they could have finished
58:07
it. There were talks about you know
58:08
filming the last stuff that needed to be done but I think
58:12
they just wanted to prove a point to the unions to sort of
58:15
you know say well you've ruined this and that's that's it.
58:19
I think it's a good story. I think Douglas Adams I adore
58:23
his writing for Doctor Who for me he feels a bit hit and miss
58:28
city of Death I think is very good pirate planets.
58:33
I don't know if my problem with Pirate Planet is more down to
58:35
Bruce purchases delivery. He's.
58:40
Very madness. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:44
It's not quite Graham Crowden for me, so there's some really
58:48
good ideas in there. But yeah, that probably just
58:50
slightly puts me off that one a bit Sharda.
58:54
It's a strange one, isn't it? Because for so long we didn't
58:57
have it. I didn't really collect the
58:58
videos that much, so I wouldn't have seen the Sharda version.
59:04
Not for what I don't think until it came out on DVD is that box
59:07
set. So the first version I probably
59:09
would have encountered was the Paul McGann big vintage one.
59:14
I think the animated version is is particularly good and now
59:19
they split it down into the 25 minute episodes.
59:23
I really enjoy it. I think Christopher Neem is just
59:30
brilliant. You'll you'll note there's a a
59:33
bit of a continuing theme throughout this season of camp
59:36
villains. And no, he brings the camp he
59:41
really does. Is he cruising at one point When
59:44
he? He takes over that guy.
59:45
He sure is. You will.
59:47
Probably know more than. Anything.
59:48
Yeah, Gareth Roberts. Yeah, doesn't.
59:51
It, yeah. Well, it's all from the point of
59:53
view of the guy whose car he steals and he thinks we're.
59:56
Having a good time with him. And he ends up being brain
59:58
sucked and thrown out the car. Oh well, have you ever?
1:00:01
Been brain sucked, Joe. Well, yeah, you heard my.
1:00:09
I like the supporting cast. I think Daniel Hills great.
1:00:13
So we've we've had two Waiting for God alumni in this season.
1:00:19
Victoria Burgoyne. Sorry Rod and Joe, but yeah, she
1:00:24
is. Well, she always, she always
1:00:26
brings a smile to my face because I always think of the
1:00:29
links that Tom not for that reason, I I always think of the
1:00:33
links that Tom Baker did in the Tom Baker years.
1:00:35
You remember that when he was commenting, he gave comments on
1:00:37
every story. Don't beat you cock.
1:00:39
Yeah, that's the one. And he saw Victoria.
1:00:43
Oh, he was he. Now he makes.
1:00:45
Me smile. He goes it was her first telly
1:00:48
and she was so sad and then he looks straight at the camera.
1:00:51
Such a harm and he we were all. Sad.
1:00:54
And then he starts going. Oh, Mary.
1:01:04
He does that when she's with him on the.
1:01:06
Commentary He does. He does.
1:01:07
He does. I mean, you would well.
1:01:10
Yeah. Well, I would anyway.
1:01:14
Yeah, I I like it. I think it's a great story.
1:01:18
It's a fantastic cast. I think Professor Cronotis is a
1:01:22
great character. He gets used again in Dirk
1:01:26
Gently, doesn't he? Because never one to let a good
1:01:30
idea be wasted by the program not being made.
1:01:35
I love the little guy who's he's kind of like, I don't know what
1:01:39
his role is at the at the university, but he's the the guy
1:01:43
in the bowler hat who's just looking people in.
1:01:45
Yeah, yeah. Gerald Campion.
1:01:47
He was a child star with the BBC in the 50s.
1:01:49
Billy Bunter wasn't. He he was.
1:01:51
Tom Baker was apparently absolutely overawed that Gerald
1:01:54
Campion was in Doctor Who. Yeah, yeah.
1:01:58
So yeah, I really enjoy it. I think it's a good story.
1:02:02
I in the the new version, I like that they've attempted to affect
1:02:08
something close to what Dudley Simpson would have done
1:02:11
musically because I think having seen the the the version that
1:02:17
came out on VHS KEF, I'm so sorry my friend, but that just
1:02:21
didn't really mesh with what was going on on the screen.
1:02:24
I could still hear it in my nightmares.
1:02:27
I. Mean.
1:02:32
It could have been worse. It could have been Doctor in
1:02:33
distress, couldn't it? Well, indeed.
1:02:37
Stick around. It's coming.
1:02:38
It's coming. Yeah.
1:02:41
So yeah, I'm going to put it through.
1:02:42
Fantastic. I'm also going to put this one
1:02:45
through. I really enjoy Sharda.
1:02:47
I think it's so great watch like you guys, probably the version I
1:02:52
watch most these days is the 25 minute animation.
1:02:56
I love the synergies between this and lots of other Douglas
1:02:58
Adams work. It kind of adds, it acts as a
1:03:01
bit of a companion piece I think to City of Death.
1:03:03
It's not repeating things, but they they kind of bookend the
1:03:06
season. So in both stories you've got an
1:03:08
absolute slew of beautiful location filming that really
1:03:13
gives both those two stories a really distinctive feel and a
1:03:17
feeling of place and location and atmosphere, and that works
1:03:21
really well. And he's interesting.
1:03:22
In City of Death we're looking at art and here we're looking at
1:03:25
literature and books, and both of them we get kind of a pseudo
1:03:29
male companion. So we've got Duggan obviously in
1:03:31
here. We've got Chris or Bristol,
1:03:33
which always sounded a little bit dodgy to me.
1:03:36
We've got all the themes about playing with time, particularly
1:03:39
the book, and you've got all that thing about hidden
1:03:41
personas. So in City of Death, you've got
1:03:43
the Count, who then turns out to be a criminal mastermind, but
1:03:46
really he's hidden again and he's an alien.
1:03:49
Whereas here we've got Cronotus, who's the Time Lord, who's
1:03:51
hiding, who turns out to be a criminal.
1:03:54
So we've got all those hidden within hidden, and I like all of
1:03:57
that. I think that's great.
1:03:59
And obviously, like you said, Mark, you've got links back to
1:04:01
Do Gently as well, where he rips off both this and City of Death
1:04:05
to turn in a completely original work.
1:04:07
But I really like that. My second point for it is
1:04:10
Douglas Adams himself, because it's kind of the end of the
1:04:12
season and I think like the best of the kind of classic Who
1:04:15
script editors. He's got a really clear style
1:04:18
and vision. He knows what he wants to do and
1:04:20
I think it shines through not only in the stories he writes,
1:04:23
but it shines through in everything that he scripts,
1:04:25
edits and he's totally In Sync with his leading man.
1:04:28
And Tom clearly loves him and loves the dialogue he gives him.
1:04:31
So that's such a fantastic symbiotic relationship, Those
1:04:34
two, they work in complete harmony together and I think
1:04:37
it's glorious what we get as a result.
1:04:40
Probably. If you push me to, I would say
1:04:42
of his scripts for the show, this is probably Douglas Adams
1:04:46
weakest, but I still love that. There's huge ideas, there's
1:04:50
wonderful dialogue. And then my Third Point is, like
1:04:53
you were saying again earlier, Mark, this is kind of this is
1:04:56
the end of an era and so much to love here.
1:04:58
We don't get this kind of really OTT camp villain for a long time
1:05:03
after this. We get very serious as we come
1:05:05
into bid Mead and then we get very knifely when we get in
1:05:08
Saywood. We lose this really kind of
1:05:11
joyous, glorious Doctor Who that just revels in Doctor Who being
1:05:15
Doctor Who. I mean, what other programme
1:05:17
apart from this at this time, would walk into a field where
1:05:20
there's an invisible ship and they know it's there because
1:05:22
there's a bloody carpet lying in the middle of the field and they
1:05:25
say there's a carpet and they walk up there.
1:05:28
You know, that is just Doctor Who, isn't it?
1:05:30
Where else do you get that? The invisible ship.
1:05:33
There's lots of lovely touches. The sphere that's chasing the
1:05:36
Doctor at the end of the second episode, when it knocks over,
1:05:38
you know it's as it flies along, it knocks an old lady over.
1:05:42
It's. Really cool for for those days
1:05:44
it's. Quite how did she do wrong?
1:05:47
But I love that little touch. What about?
1:05:50
The like he's a fishing on the bank, minding his own business
1:05:53
and and it just like he gets. Sucked off on the riverbank.
1:05:58
That ball. Is just a bastard, isn't he?
1:06:00
He's just going around. And Tom is just so relaxed in
1:06:05
this. Tom feels different here.
1:06:06
I think particularly in this early scenes in the study, he
1:06:09
just feels so relaxed. He's just chilling with Lala.
1:06:13
They've got a lovely relationship.
1:06:14
He just, he almost feels as though he's not acting at that
1:06:17
point. He feels like he's being Tom
1:06:18
Baker and you compare that to what he is when he lands on our
1:06:22
goal list just a few months later, when he's very angry and
1:06:25
very cross here, he's just having a ball.
1:06:28
He clearly loves Dennis Carey. The way he kind of interacts
1:06:32
with him, Tom's doing all his shtick.
1:06:35
I love it at the think tank where he kind of goes to
1:06:37
congratulate all the wizened old men and he doesn't quite know
1:06:40
how to touch all of them. So he touches one on the cheek,
1:06:43
Pats one on the head and then thinks better at the last one.
1:06:46
And it's just Tom, isn't it? And he's just I I just think Tom
1:06:50
can't be beaten as the doctor. And for me, this is his glory
1:06:54
day. I hate it when people say he's
1:06:55
given up or he's phoning it in or you know, he's sending it up.
1:06:59
I don't think he sends it up at all.
1:07:01
I think he's doing his best for the show and he's he's loving
1:07:04
what he's doing. So absolutely for me this is
1:07:07
going through, if for no other reason than the scene where the
1:07:11
Doctor gives Romana a medal and they they salute each other.
1:07:15
They're just, well, they're off in a ball and so am I, Joe.
1:07:19
So pleased all three of you put it.
1:07:21
I just couldn't have handled it because this is probably my
1:07:23
favorite of the year. Yeah, of course, this game.
1:07:25
Are we going to all put everything through?
1:07:27
Well, let's find out. I mean, somebody's going to win
1:07:31
this, so some are going to get knocked out later.
1:07:33
You've kind of covered all the points that I've got.
1:07:35
So whilst you've been talking, I've been very quickly thinking
1:07:38
about 3 scenes that I think exemplify why this is so great.
1:07:42
One is the very first scene, which I am very rude about.
1:07:46
Pennant Roberts on this podcast and I think he deserves his
1:07:49
props. That is a scene that's told in
1:07:52
silence and visually he manages to tell you exactly what is
1:07:57
going on in that scene and his cameras moving about and there's
1:08:00
a lot of incident. So bravo to him there.
1:08:04
Aside that I do think the first two episodes of Sharda, watching
1:08:07
them as the sort of cut down 6 episodes, the first two are two
1:08:11
of the most perfect Doctor Who episodes I've ever seen.
1:08:14
They're so charming. It's like distilled Doctor Who
1:08:18
for me, those two episodes. The second scene is dead men do
1:08:23
not require oxygen, which I think is a fantastic
1:08:26
cliffhanger. Where Tom Who, or rather the 4th
1:08:30
Doctor Who's almost bought into his own myth at this point and
1:08:32
thinks he can talk his way out of any situation, gets into an
1:08:36
intellectual jewel with a computer that at the 11th hour
1:08:40
completely bests him and he's almost dead on the floor with a
1:08:44
lack of oxygen. It's a brilliant seat.
1:08:46
It's not the sort of cliffhanger we normally get, and it's it's
1:08:48
very, very good. And I like as well, like you
1:08:52
said, Rod Howe, Douglas Adams, in that sort of muffity way,
1:08:55
invisibly hides twists in the story and the moment where
1:09:00
Cronotus's study turns into the TARDIS.
1:09:04
I think it's such a brilliant, it's such a great moment.
1:09:09
Yeah, it's it's just superb, this story, everyone,
1:09:12
everything, everyone said, charming guest characters,
1:09:15
wonderful performance. Cambridge hasn't changed.
1:09:18
I was in Cambridge last year. And actually, as a quick side
1:09:22
note, the only time I've ever seen panic on my usually
1:09:26
steadfast partner's face was when we were pumping down the
1:09:29
Cam and he nearly went in the water.
1:09:32
It's the moment I treasure and it literally looks exactly like
1:09:35
it did in 79 or whenever this was filmed.
1:09:38
Oh, it's gorgeous. Shot it.
1:09:40
Is over long? Is that barbershop quartet still
1:09:42
there? I.
1:09:44
Mean what have a Doctor Who story would have?
1:09:46
That in the lead up. Cliffhanger, you know.
1:09:48
Oh, it's fabulous. Yeah, apparently they they met
1:09:53
Pendant Roberts in the bar and they asked if they could do it
1:09:56
and he said yeah, come on, come on guys, ladder.
1:09:58
But you know, it adds some flavour and character, doesn't
1:10:00
it? Hey, I think Pendant Roberts's
1:10:02
strongest thing as a director is he casts brilliantly every
1:10:06
single one of his story. He casts impeccably.
1:10:08
Time Lash? Maybe not.
1:10:11
No, actually, it's it's impeccably fun.
1:10:13
Let's be. Honest to watch?
1:10:14
No. It's going through.
1:10:16
Of course it is. It's wonderful.
1:10:17
It's it's like a a glass of pure sunshine.
1:10:22
And Joe, we're over to you to pick your story.
1:10:25
Buggery. I'm not prepared.
1:10:26
Hang on. No, I am.
1:10:28
I am. OK, so then someone's got to be
1:10:31
negative about this season. So I'm going to choose a story
1:10:34
that I would like to kick out, please.
1:10:37
And that is Destiny of the Daleks, which I think is.
1:10:42
Easily the weakest. Story of this season and here is
1:10:46
my reasons why I think it has an airless atmosphere to it.
1:10:52
The. Dudley Simpsons music is missing
1:10:54
for like the 1st 17 minutes of the first episode and there is
1:10:59
there is sort of an atmosphere to it, but it's just feels.
1:11:03
It feels like nothing is happening, despite the fact a
1:11:05
lot is happening and it really makes you realize how much IS
1:11:08
music pushes the story on and sort of lens mood and pace as
1:11:13
well. And as a whole, it's so weird.
1:11:16
Destiny the Daleks. It lacks the sort of charming
1:11:20
humor I come to expect from the Graham Williams era and it sort
1:11:25
of replaces it with bad one liners.
1:11:28
It's a weird fusion between what Terry Nation is trying to do and
1:11:32
what Douglas Adams is trying to do, and they don't marry well
1:11:36
together. There are some witty lines in
1:11:38
here, but they're few and far between.
1:11:40
That whole psychic like it, you know, all that sort of stuff.
1:11:43
It's not funny in a way that most of this season is very
1:11:46
funny. Yeah.
1:11:49
So I don't quite get that. And all of the characters in
1:11:52
this, they lack any kind of motivation.
1:11:56
They're not really very interesting to watch.
1:11:58
They're not particularly well cast.
1:12:00
I mean, what's going on with those bloody extras when you
1:12:03
talk about the extras in the halls?
1:12:04
And I'm on in Destiny. The Daleks, they're being
1:12:07
fucking massacred and they're laughing about it.
1:12:10
They're sort of falling to the ground going.
1:12:13
It's really weird. Joe, when you said falling to
1:12:16
the ground, they're very, very slowly moving towards the
1:12:19
ground. I'm not being paid well enough
1:12:21
to be damaged. You've never seen extras fall so
1:12:25
gracefully. Actually, five Doctor sidemen on
1:12:28
that chess board, Actually, they do it as well.
1:12:31
I don't believe this is the same Dave Ross that we saw in Genesis
1:12:34
of the Daleks. It's a performance without any
1:12:37
of Michael wishes. Subtle to your nuance.
1:12:40
It's a yeah, but it. That weird.
1:12:43
Glue around the mouth. He can barely get the words out.
1:12:46
Can. He he manages feel for him a
1:12:48
bit. He manages to make some words,
1:12:50
like he he puts in about 15 syllables.
1:12:53
Weaponry becomes whack. And now he it's very it's a
1:12:56
strange performance. And his return, it should be
1:13:00
triumphant. And this the cliffhanger is and
1:13:03
then everything that comes after that is a bit of a damp squib.
1:13:07
And my last point is the Mavellans, which is an
1:13:11
interesting idea. Daleks versus Mavellans 2
1:13:14
Logical Forces and but it's a great idea.
1:13:17
They're disco robots with dreadlocks.
1:13:20
Like they look ridiculous. How Moffett.
1:13:23
Even came on Joe could. Put them back in Doctor Who for
1:13:26
a second and expect them to. It could.
1:13:28
Be more 1979 than a bunch of disco robots with dreads.
1:13:33
I know, but it don't really give you much St. credit School the
1:13:36
next day does it? Did you watch?
1:13:39
Doctor Joe. Don't watch, Doctor.
1:13:41
Who Actually, that's a good point.
1:13:45
Yeah, so I I do think this is well directed good.
1:13:47
I do think there's some really interesting visuals.
1:13:49
The location work is good. There's some nice action secret.
1:13:52
I love the bit where Lala Ward's battling that Mavelin and kicks
1:13:55
his arm off and stuff. It gets sort of muddy and nasty,
1:13:58
doesn't it? There There's good scenes in
1:14:00
this, but as a whole, I don't think it's particularly well
1:14:03
directed. I'm missing the humor I like in
1:14:06
this and I'm it's the characters more than anything.
1:14:09
I just don't really give a shit about any characters in Destiny
1:14:12
and the Daleks, and that's usually my inner certainly my in
1:14:15
this season for the rest of the stories.
1:14:17
So yeah, Destiny, the Daleks. It's a bit of a chore.
1:14:21
OK, let's go to the comment. We've had loads of comments on
1:14:24
this one. So Fraser Gregory said that
1:14:26
Terry Nation sadly forgets how to write his creations, and
1:14:30
Adams isn't savvy enough to pull round a script that woefully
1:14:33
mischaracterizes both the Daleks and Davros Ken Greaves
1:14:37
direction, though, is superb. This and the turns from the two
1:14:40
leads save the show. Keep it.
1:14:43
In below us so it's destiny is unfairly derided.
1:14:46
I know it looks cheap, but episode one has a great sense of
1:14:48
danger. The drilling, electronic noises
1:14:51
and shiny walls make it unnerving.
1:14:53
It's a fun romp that terrified me as a kid and anyone attacking
1:14:56
it should spack off. Jason Thompson said.
1:15:00
I recently listened to the BBC audio release and it shows how
1:15:04
almost all the criticism of Destiny is based on how it looks
1:15:08
Divorced from the visuals. It's a superb story.
1:15:10
Yes, the Daleks are Tati, and the Mevellans have silly disco
1:15:14
costumes and a ludicrously easy to remove Power Pack.
1:15:17
And David Goodison isn't quite as good as Davros, but this is
1:15:21
still great stuff. Divorce from the visuals.
1:15:24
Do you remember those Daleks? Go along the sand dunes with the
1:15:27
bombs at the end and you can see because they walk.
1:15:29
It all. Yeah.
1:15:30
They. Bounce.
1:15:34
Now that's just a call Back to the chase.
1:15:36
Come on, yeah, the chokes are better than this.
1:15:39
A little better than this. A strange bruise, some great
1:15:42
location work and a great dynamic between Tom and Lala.
1:15:45
It's a shame the studio seems to feel so tatty and the Daleks are
1:15:48
in such a sorry state. The lack of music at times gives
1:15:51
it a very weird vibe. Daniel Knight said the poor
1:15:54
relation to Genesis, but it's well directed and pacey.
1:15:57
The Mevellans look suitably alien and while David Goodison
1:16:00
doesn't get the dialogue or ring modulator that Michael Wisher
1:16:03
got, he does a fine job. OK, the Daleks look a bit tatty.
1:16:08
John Bensalea, well made but a bit flat, Needs more incidental
1:16:12
music. Dave Rennie says Not a fan.
1:16:14
Rickety Daleks, poor Davros and Dove.
1:16:16
Disco looking androids. Daniel Rawnsley I suppose
1:16:20
destiny can be blamed, celebrated for resurrection.
1:16:22
The ongoing debate as to whether Davros should be in charge of
1:16:25
the Daleks or vice versa. For my money, he shouldn't be.
1:16:28
It reduces them to being grunts. Michael Storm says fairly
1:16:32
run-of-the-mill and a bit dull, but the enhanced soundtrack on
1:16:34
the Blu-ray does help the atmosphere.
1:16:36
However, it does have a great termination.
1:16:38
Part one and Part 2 has a stonking cliffhanger.
1:16:41
We're getting there, folks. Crash dummies.
1:16:43
So watchable it's shoddy. Got some terrible ideas, and the
1:16:46
Daleks look knackered. But like an owl of shaped
1:16:50
jumper, I find it cozy and comforting.
1:16:53
James H said it sensibly writes up canine, stupidly writes back
1:16:57
Davros in and and fails to consider that as a sequel to
1:17:00
Genesis it should probably try and carry the visuals over from
1:17:03
that story. However, the story itself is
1:17:06
great fun and an interesting idea.
1:17:08
Just looked, just let down by the look.
1:17:10
Jean. Canine versus the Daleks.
1:17:12
What is he talking about? Tom Newsom Underrated, but
1:17:16
because it doesn't look gritty enough, despite a really
1:17:19
inventive, exciting story. Big orange, Michael said.
1:17:22
Forget a few things about the dialects to tell a story that
1:17:25
doesn't quite add up. As the hell there's more Joe
1:17:29
Llewellyn. It's fine.
1:17:30
One of the better Terry Nation scripts didn't drag too much.
1:17:33
Graham Hampton said, in spite of its reputation.
1:17:35
I have a fondness to the destiny.
1:17:37
All done. My first memory of Doctor Who
1:17:39
love this story. Love Romana's costume and whilst
1:17:42
David Stavros is no Michael Wisher is a special place in my
1:17:45
heart. The good ship, Schulkster says.
1:17:48
This was the big one for me. I remember the teaser trailer
1:17:51
where the Doctor gets woken up and told he will face the
1:17:53
Daleks. The cliffhanger to episode one
1:17:55
was terrifying. The Daleks screaming at Romano
1:17:58
was so alarming it seemed to go on for ages.
1:18:01
And finally, Paul Smye, possibly the weakest Dalek story of the
1:18:05
classic era. OK, well, I'm going to pick up
1:18:08
my response to this one and I'm going to say, Joe, I agree with
1:18:12
you that there are many problems to the story, but but still
1:18:17
going to put it through and I'll tell you why.
1:18:20
So I think episode one is an absolute delta of an episode.
1:18:24
Yes, it's an absolute, archetypal Terry Nation opener.
1:18:28
You've got an almost exclusive focus on the Doctrine Companion
1:18:31
walking around a deserted landscape by the number of
1:18:34
mysteries they've got to solve. They get cut off from the
1:18:37
TARDIS. There's radiation danger.
1:18:39
Not heard that one before. There's a mysterious character
1:18:43
who turns out to be a friend, like Belal and Severin.
1:18:46
A spaceship lands like Death and the cliffhanger.
1:18:49
Guess what the cliffhanger is? It's the reveal of the Daleks.
1:18:52
We saw that. Coming.
1:18:55
But, but I think there are a number of factors that lift
1:18:58
start above its other counterparts counterparts.
1:19:02
One is there's fantastic choice of locations from that kind of
1:19:05
weird deserted city and then you go through to the sand dunes to
1:19:09
really distinctive and dramatic looking locations, which I think
1:19:14
Ken Grieve shoots really, really well.
1:19:16
I think the soundscape you were talking about, the lack of music
1:19:18
and absolutely there is a lack of music, but I think the
1:19:21
soundscape is brilliant and gives a really strange,
1:19:25
unnerving feeling. Tom and Lala, this was their
1:19:28
third story. They're working together.
1:19:31
They're in absolute unison here. The fact that her costume
1:19:33
matches his, they're just totally In Sync, these two.
1:19:37
And there's the pair of them striding across the landscape
1:19:40
with them, two scarves flowing in the wind.
1:19:42
I think it's marvelous. I love them of Alan, so I
1:19:45
disagree with you. I think they look great.
1:19:47
It's nice that we've got some ethnic representation for once
1:19:50
in Doctor Who makes a change at this period in time.
1:19:54
And you have got Douglas Douglas Adams human now.
1:19:56
You've got the regeneration scene with Romana.
1:19:59
You've got canine having laryngitis, which is obviously
1:20:02
foreshadowing the change in his voice.
1:20:04
You've got lots of playful dialogue.
1:20:06
You've got Tom Reed in the book, The Origins of the Universe, and
1:20:10
then you have got, you know, a dialogue reveal at the end of
1:20:12
episode one. You can't really beat her.
1:20:14
So I think it's so tatty though, isn't it?
1:20:17
I mean, it takes off the wall with it, for God's sake.
1:20:19
And. It stays on him until the camera
1:20:21
moves. So I think, I think part one is
1:20:24
a great set up. My second reason is episode two.
1:20:28
I think episode 2 works really well.
1:20:30
Tom is 99% serious. He's actually very serious in
1:20:35
this epidemic. Obviously he does the line of if
1:20:37
you're supposed to be the superior beings of the universe,
1:20:39
why don't you climb after me? But apart from that, he's deadly
1:20:42
serious in that episode. It's not fun though, but there's
1:20:46
a sense of impending doom. Tom is letting you know all the
1:20:49
way through. He knows there's something more
1:20:51
to the Mavallans, but more importantly, he knows what the
1:20:54
Daleks are digging for. And he does.
1:20:56
At the end, he's going Davros. No, that's episode three
1:21:01
episode. Three.
1:21:01
You know all this bullshit. That's episode 3.
1:21:05
Episode 2, isn't it? Yeah.
1:21:08
Oh yeah, that too. Episode 2.
1:21:10
There were years and the dialects are shot really well in
1:21:12
episode 2. They're fast, they look good,
1:21:15
they sound good, They don't fall apart in episode 2.
1:21:18
The set designs are great La La Because bear in mind this, the
1:21:22
first time we've seen this new Romana.
1:21:24
I think episode 2, she really establishes the difference
1:21:27
between her and Mary Tom. And it's the scene where Tom
1:21:31
finds her grave and she comes along, she's escaped from from
1:21:34
the dialects and she just stands.
1:21:35
Then she's got a smile on her face and there's a line about,
1:21:38
oh, I've got two hearts, one for casual, one for best and she's
1:21:41
just playful. And that's so different to the
1:21:43
way Mary Tam would do it. And I think it really
1:21:45
establishes the two of them. So I think episode one, episode
1:21:48
2, great. I then struggle a little bit to
1:21:51
find a third good reason. I agree with you.
1:21:54
Three and four are a let down, should we say At best, Davros is
1:22:00
terrible. We need a song.
1:22:01
Comedy, music as he's pushing him around the corridors like.
1:22:04
Did you want? Pushing round.
1:22:07
I mean, you know, we've had the recent discussion about whether
1:22:09
Davros should still be in a wheelchair.
1:22:11
But Tom taking the wheelchair and pushing Davros around just
1:22:16
feels very, very uncomfortable. And you cannot imagine those the
1:22:20
same characters from Genesis. The way Tom needles him and
1:22:23
takes the Mickey out of him undermines the character.
1:22:27
It just feels very awkward, but I need to find a third redeeming
1:22:31
factor. So I'm going to go with the
1:22:33
dilemma. I like the fact that you've got
1:22:35
this big dilemma. You've got two bustle computers
1:22:37
pitted against each other. How are they going to find?
1:22:39
How are they going to break the impasse?
1:22:41
And I think the rock stone, scissors solution is a good way
1:22:44
to represent it for us at home. So I like that.
1:22:47
It is unfortunate. They then talk about the
1:22:49
dialects as being robots. If they do that a few times,
1:22:53
they do remind us. I think Roman says they were
1:22:55
humanoid ones, and obviously Tom finds the mutant, but they do
1:22:58
refer to them as robots quite a bit.
1:23:01
And I'm, I'm going to extemporize how I think what
1:23:05
Terry Nation was trying to do was create a new future for the
1:23:08
Dialects. So in the Timeless Children,
1:23:10
your favorite episode, Joe, the Cybermen say that their big plan
1:23:14
is to become fully cybernetic. Maybe that's what the Dialects
1:23:18
are doing here. They've totally become robots.
1:23:22
I'm stretching. I would like to remind you that
1:23:24
I did not put the time to Sheldon float around too, and
1:23:28
you did. I did so, but the master says
1:23:30
it's a disappointing plan. It's disappointing then, it's
1:23:33
disappointing now. So yeah, I struggled beyond
1:23:36
parts 1:00 and 2:00. But you know what?
1:23:38
For nostalgia, I'm putting it through.
1:23:41
Mum and Daddy are fighting. I don't like it.
1:23:46
It happens a lot. Damn.
1:23:48
Damn. What's your take?
1:23:50
Yeah I I can see both sides of the argument.
1:23:55
I can see what what Joe was saying that there are a lot of
1:23:58
faults to to this and it and I think probably of all of the
1:24:03
stories in this season this one's the tattiest looking and I
1:24:08
think that's probably down to the Dalek props they they they
1:24:11
look like they they could do with a lick of paint and a bit
1:24:14
of TLC because they they they really are quite dreadful.
1:24:20
But I I also agree with with what Rod was saying so you
1:24:24
almost kind of have kind of almost like you've read my notes
1:24:29
so I really love episode one. I think it's it's it's it's
1:24:33
brilliant and the fact that you haven't got any incidental music
1:24:38
to kind of speak of but you've got lots of sound effects and
1:24:43
and obviously you've got the the explosions from the drills and
1:24:47
and and all the vibrations and all that sort of stuff.
1:24:49
See you've got there's enough going on to make it interesting
1:24:54
and and I think I, I, yeah, I I think it's a classic example of
1:24:59
one of those stories where episode one is so good and then
1:25:03
what follows on from that just kind of tales away which is
1:25:07
unfortunate. I really love you know, like you
1:25:15
again, like you were saying Rod this is this is the first story
1:25:18
where you've got Tom and Lala together.
1:25:22
I know I'm not. I'm not a massive fan of the
1:25:25
Armageddon factors and I didn't really like the character that
1:25:31
that Lala played in the Princess.
1:25:36
So when I got this on VHVHS, it was a bit of a surprise that
1:25:40
that all of a sudden this character he was, was.
1:25:44
But yeah, yeah. What did you think about the
1:25:47
regeneration? It's not Douglas Adams finest
1:25:54
work, is it? But I I do.
1:25:58
I think some of it is brilliant though.
1:26:01
I like it when the the well endowed lady came in and and Tom
1:26:08
goes, thank you, that is brilliant.
1:26:12
That's exactly what John Perry said when April Walker was in.
1:26:17
No, thank you. But there are bits of it that
1:26:21
are quite cringe and and and and yeah, you know so so it's not
1:26:27
not, it's not the finest. Bit of Doctor Who or.
1:26:30
Douglas Adams I suppose, but but I just think they they hit the
1:26:34
ground but beyond that, that regeneration scene, they hit the
1:26:38
ground running and there's an instant connection and instant
1:26:41
sort of chemistry there. And I think that goes on
1:26:45
throughout this season and into the next.
1:26:49
Yeah, you can really they just enjoying each other's company.
1:26:54
And I know obviously outside of the show they were really
1:26:58
enjoying each other's company. But you know, within, within it,
1:27:02
as, as two actors, AS2 characters, you really get that
1:27:07
friendship and and that bond and and and I think it's just
1:27:10
really, really lovely. To not be like to to take it
1:27:13
away from where I usually am. There's a sense of romance.
1:27:17
No, it's not sex. It's romance.
1:27:19
And it's really beguiling. Yeah, because because it's
1:27:23
because it's like you say, isn't it?
1:27:24
It it it it's it's not it's not lust or or or sexual it it's
1:27:30
very kind of romantic. Yeah.
1:27:33
Yeah you know yeah. You know and we we we get to see
1:27:36
that in the next story as well you know that beginning you know
1:27:40
in Paris you know it yeah. It is just it's just really it's
1:27:45
really lovely to see that kind of weaved all throughout the the
1:27:48
the season then I I'm rather fond of the Novellans as well.
1:27:55
I I I think. They're, they're, they're.
1:28:00
Rubbish in many ways. I think like the Power Pack.
1:28:03
I mean what a design fault that is.
1:28:06
Just pull it out and they just fall over.
1:28:11
You know they're not even screwed into place like you know
1:28:15
most batteries are nowadays. Yes, there's a design fault.
1:28:19
But but I, I, I kind of like them and I and I'd like that
1:28:22
kind of storyline of of where you've got 2 equal logical
1:28:30
computers in this AMPAS and you know they they've fought through
1:28:36
and and go right. The only way we can beat you is
1:28:39
by introducing an organic element in into our battle
1:28:44
computers or whatever you and I think that's that's a really
1:28:47
good story and I don't know whether that is Douglas Adams or
1:28:53
Terry Nation. I don't know where that that
1:28:55
kind of came from because it because it feels like like
1:28:57
you've seen with this one there's there's these two forces
1:29:02
kind of meeting in the middle and it and it's hard to to say
1:29:05
what what's what and who did this and and what have you.
1:29:09
They're like opposing ends of the scale as well, aren't they?
1:29:12
So bringing them together is just battling but.
1:29:15
Yeah I mean it's it's yeah, it's a very odd combination but but I
1:29:20
I would say it's it in most part I feel it's quite successful but
1:29:24
I I just really love that kind of story and and on a side note
1:29:29
that fight between Romana and the Command Mavelin is
1:29:34
hilarious. So just before she boots his arm
1:29:38
off, she grabs him by the groin. Have you Did you see that?
1:29:44
He's no wonder he's struggling to get to the bottom, to to to
1:29:47
detonate it, because he's just been grabbed by the by the
1:29:49
bullet, you know? That design floor though?
1:29:52
One little boot and your arm falls off.
1:29:54
Oh yeah. Yeah, there's another one, yeah.
1:29:56
His arm was at least of his worries for the sand.
1:29:59
And and then finally, Suzanne. Danielle, I mean.
1:30:07
Very good. Well, I can't fight that.
1:30:11
I'm not going to attempt to fight that.
1:30:13
She's gorgeous. Yeah.
1:30:14
Yeah, so there's a lot to like. There's a lot of bolts but but I
1:30:20
think for me, I'm putting it through there's there's enough
1:30:23
in it to to make it this fun romp.
1:30:26
So there's two of us going for it.
1:30:27
So it's going through, but Mark, would you have put it through
1:30:30
anyway? It's a bit of a mixed bag.
1:30:34
I think Ken Grieve does a really good job with what he's been
1:30:37
given, and there's a great story about Ken Grieve, but that's not
1:30:42
for this particular story. I think you probably will know
1:30:45
which one I'm talking about. Oh, OK Well, on the City of
1:30:49
Death DVD there's an Easter egg, which is an interview with
1:30:52
Douglas Adams, but I'll bring that up at the appropriate
1:30:57
point. Twice me.
1:31:00
Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, I feel it's a lot of this is
1:31:06
feeling bad for the people that have been given this story to
1:31:09
do. And it's just there isn't the, I
1:31:11
don't understand to budget or whatever, but, you know, poor
1:31:15
David Goodison, He's given it his best shot.
1:31:18
He's been given someone else's mask.
1:31:22
He does look shoddy, doesn't it? You know, it does look, but that
1:31:27
said, you know, as a kid I watched, I must have seen it on
1:31:29
the repeat the following year. I have, That's my first Dalek
1:31:32
story. So it's really exciting, you
1:31:33
know, wow, this is what the Daleks are and as, as you know,
1:31:37
then would have been in seven-year old that would have
1:31:39
been, you know, highly exciting. But you know what?
1:31:43
They did. I mean, that was so unusual to
1:31:45
have any merchandise in those days.
1:31:47
But the week before Destiny came out, BBC released the LP of
1:31:51
Genesis. So and that was the first time
1:31:54
you had anything. So I would listen.
1:31:56
So I didn't tweak that Davros was coming back obviously, but
1:32:00
but listening to it like obviously I heard Michael wishes
1:32:04
fantastic performance. Oops.
1:32:06
And then David Goodson comes on. I'm not sure the timing of that
1:32:08
was great for them. And there's those.
1:32:10
I mean, I've much so praised Sir Ken Grieve those shots where
1:32:15
they're sort of tracking after Davros going down the corridor
1:32:18
and he's Wheeling all over the place.
1:32:20
The poor little legs are going like crazy and it's bumping into
1:32:23
the sides of the corridor and it's just, yeah, that's not
1:32:26
great. I think Dan's right.
1:32:29
Lala just really seizes that role and I think there's the
1:32:35
chemistry there and I think it's nice you get a little bit and we
1:32:38
don't see that much of it always in the classic series.
1:32:40
There is that development of their relationship.
1:32:43
So when they start off with Mary, they start off with Mary
1:32:49
as obviously she's very icy at 1st and it's you know he doesn't
1:32:53
really want her around and it's quite a combative relationship
1:32:56
to begin with. But then they warm to each
1:32:59
other, and by this point now they're really, you know, and
1:33:02
it's 2 equals again, which is so unusual because it's usually the
1:33:06
Doctor. And then you've got a human
1:33:08
companion, so you've got two time mods.
1:33:11
And so they're they're able to relate to each other, perhaps in
1:33:14
a different way than the previous ones have.
1:33:18
So it's nice to see that a lot. It mirrors.
1:33:21
It mirrors that though, doesn't it?
1:33:22
Because he starts off with Lala and he loves having her around,
1:33:25
and then by the end he can't bear her being around.
1:33:28
So stretch how these things go in both.
1:33:30
Ways. Yeah, Yeah.
1:33:32
There's a famous quote from Lala Ward, isn't there, where someone
1:33:36
comes up, comes up with the original question, who was your
1:33:39
favorite monster? And so Tom Baker.
1:33:44
So yeah, they work so well together.
1:33:47
I love a costume. Someone mentioned the the Dolby
1:33:50
Atmos mix on the the Blu-ray is fantastic.
1:33:55
Admittedly, you know that's been enhanced by I think it's Marquez
1:34:00
that does all those. He's really great.
1:34:02
But that's no, not necessarily something we can praise it for
1:34:07
in as of itself, because we're talking about, I guess, when it
1:34:11
went out. Yeah, I have a bit of a problem
1:34:15
with the the whole, you know, the robots versus robots.
1:34:19
Again, you know, the fan in you just thinks, well, no, they're
1:34:22
not robots, they're they're mutants.
1:34:24
That said, I still find it more entertaining than the next Dalek
1:34:28
story that comes along by quite a long chalk.
1:34:35
The Novellans. Yeah, you know, you've you've
1:34:38
pointed out some of their shortcomings.
1:34:42
I just think they're really distinctive and I love that they
1:34:45
brought them back just for that little cameo with Capaldi.
1:34:49
And character up there, currently making a set of them.
1:34:51
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll buy them, don't get
1:34:54
me wrong. Yeah, exactly.
1:34:57
So yeah, put it through. You know, destiny goes through.
1:35:02
This does have like, people point at that bit in Nightmare
1:35:05
of Eden where he's going, Oh my fingers, my arms, my every as
1:35:09
the most sort of pants mimic moment of the season.
1:35:11
For my money, it's the bit in Destiny the Daleks where he
1:35:15
throws the hat over the Daleks eye and Davros is going to your
1:35:19
left, to your right. This.
1:35:21
Way I'm like that is that point where Douglas was tearing.
1:35:25
Behind you. Alighty and he's failing
1:35:28
dismally. Right, so third one sails
1:35:33
through. We're having a good night
1:35:34
tonight. So my first choice.
1:35:36
I'm spoiled for choices. I've got Nightmare of Eden, City
1:35:41
of death or Creature from the pit.
1:35:43
And I'm just in a sea of jewels, so I will go for the Nightmare
1:35:50
of Eden. So first reason because I've got
1:35:53
a prop. The first reason is the
1:35:58
Mandrels. I love the Mandrels and it's,
1:36:03
yeah, it's probably unreasonable, but I do love
1:36:06
them. I know they've got rods down
1:36:07
their arm, so they can't actually hold people or grasp
1:36:11
people. They certainly can't crush or
1:36:12
claw anyone's death. They're just kind of forearm
1:36:16
them a little bit. And I know that's a problem, and
1:36:18
I know their first appearance. You want to give them a hug,
1:36:21
don't you? Know.
1:36:22
But they can't hug you back. No, a first appearance is kind
1:36:27
of cool. So when they first appear, they
1:36:33
do look a little bit like Kermit coming out that hole in me,
1:36:37
waving, waving their arms. And I know there are tears in
1:36:40
the costume and I know they've got flares and I know they've
1:36:43
got soft pads on their feet. I know all of that.
1:36:46
This is a rousing defence of them I.
1:36:48
Still, I think they're awesome. I love them.
1:36:51
So the reasons I love them, firstly, I think it's a
1:36:53
fantastic idea that actually they're being exploited and
1:36:57
their bird body is create Fraxo in.
1:36:59
So really they're the victims on what's happening like lions in a
1:37:03
zoo, they've been let loose and they're killing people.
1:37:05
That's just their instinct. The Doctor sees that and he
1:37:08
wants to save them and put them back, and then he takes them to
1:37:11
another plant afterwards. So we actually have sympathy for
1:37:14
our lovely mandrels, but our central idea of them being with
1:37:17
Fraxo, and I just think it's such a fantastic twist.
1:37:21
I love them for that alone. I like the fact that they're not
1:37:24
uniform in the way that they look.
1:37:26
They're different sizes, different heights.
1:37:29
It just makes them feel a little.
1:37:30
Bit that was deliberate. It probably.
1:37:32
Was. But you know what it makes them
1:37:34
feel sometimes when you've got Alicia Burke in the, in the
1:37:37
current series, making every monster walking uniform or in
1:37:41
unison, it kind of takes away that ramshackle look, just makes
1:37:44
it feel a bit more real. And they even their performance
1:37:47
is different. Some lumber really slowly, one
1:37:49
or two of them just leap out. There's one that leaps out at
1:37:52
Ramana, he's fantastic. And then the ones come rushing
1:37:56
out of the lift. So we've got a variety of
1:37:58
different shapes and sizes. I think they look brilliant in
1:38:01
the jungle, in Eden. We just see that their eyes and
1:38:04
they rise up. I think they look fantastic
1:38:06
there, but I think any monster would struggle in that really
1:38:09
Overlake studio, which is not conducive to hiding a hiding, a
1:38:14
poor costume. But you know, they, I think they
1:38:17
still work well and I absolutely love the wailing noise they make
1:38:21
at the end. When the doctor's leading them
1:38:22
back with the dog whistle, they're doing the roaring and
1:38:25
then they do that really weird pitiful noise.
1:38:29
Church thing is such an alien sound and I love the fact that
1:38:32
they mix that in. So I love the Mandrels that
1:38:35
they're one of the reasons I'm putting it through.
1:38:37
Second reason, it's a drug storyline that's quite
1:38:40
different. It's quite unique.
1:38:42
It's quite adult for Doctor Who in 1979, particular show that's
1:38:45
going out at 6:00 on a Saturday night.
1:38:48
And I think they make quite a strong stand for Doctor Who in
1:38:51
that day. So the Doctor in particular
1:38:53
takes a really firm stand on fracks the way he talks about
1:38:57
having seen whole communities whole world destroyed by.
1:39:00
He's always when he talks about Fraxo and he's deadly, deadly
1:39:03
serious and completely against her.
1:39:06
And I think we see the effects of the drug quite well.
1:39:09
So Saka, before we even know about the drug, you see Saka
1:39:12
laughing at the beginning and then obviously as Romana takes
1:39:17
him away, he's mood changes. He has a mood change, but you
1:39:19
don't know why at that moment. But I think the the best on the
1:39:23
nose portrayal is Captain Rig. So we've seen Rig get spiked,
1:39:27
we've seen his drink has been spiked, and then you see him
1:39:30
laughing as all the passengers and crew are being savaged by
1:39:33
the Mandrels. He's just sitting there laughing
1:39:36
at it. And then on top of that, he goes
1:39:38
to attack Ramana and the only way to actually stop him is he's
1:39:42
shot dead. I mean it's it's quite strong
1:39:44
stuff for 6:00 on a Saturday. I like the way they do it.
1:39:48
And then it's absolutely topped by at the very end when Tris
1:39:51
comes out and the Doctor says go away.
1:39:53
I mean, I don't think he's ever dismissed A villain with such
1:39:57
contained rage and anger at that point.
1:40:00
He is not giving a drug dealer any room at all.
1:40:03
And I think that's a really bold move and a bold story for Doctor
1:40:06
Who to do at that time. The third reason I'm putting it
1:40:10
through is the plot. I think there's a lot going on
1:40:13
in this plot. There's lots of different
1:40:14
strands and they're all complementary.
1:40:16
So you've got the passenger ship and the Hacketti having crushed
1:40:19
together, bit like a disaster movie, like Airplane or Poseidon
1:40:24
Adventure long before we get to Voyage the Damned.
1:40:26
So you've got elements of that. Obviously, you've got the drug
1:40:28
smuggling, then you've got the whodunit elements of that.
1:40:31
So who is it? That's smuggling the drugs.
1:40:33
And who is it that's stolen the drugs off?
1:40:35
The doctor. Who's the person in the the
1:40:38
white passenger costume that's running around the ship?
1:40:41
You've got the mystery of what happened on the former
1:40:43
expedition. You've got the CET machine.
1:40:45
I think that's a great invention.
1:40:47
OK, it's a little bit Carnival of the Monsters, but I think
1:40:49
it's presented in a different enough way and it gives us that
1:40:52
superb Episode 2 cliffhanger and the Doctor takes Romana's hand
1:40:58
and they go running into the projection.
1:40:59
We didn't know at that point anyone could go into it, so
1:41:02
that's a brilliant cliffhanger. And even then, Running in goes
1:41:05
into the closing theme. Love that.
1:41:07
And then finally, of course you got monsters on the rampage.
1:41:09
So you've got all these disparate elements and I think
1:41:11
they work together incredibly well and tell a strong,
1:41:15
cohesive, bold, original story. And I'm going to sneak a quick
1:41:19
4th one in because there's so, there's so many bits of dialogue
1:41:22
here. You've got to leave us some it,
1:41:24
Rod. Come on.
1:41:25
Interfere. Of course we should interfere.
1:41:28
Always do what you're best at and work for.
1:41:31
I don't work for anyone. I'm just having fun.
1:41:34
I mean, it's great dialogue. Love it.
1:41:36
So yeah, I'm definitely putting this one through.
1:41:40
Should we go to the comments? Gary Russell says Eden is
1:41:43
bestest. James Lark A great story,
1:41:46
clever, witty and not self indulgent unlike others this
1:41:49
season. Darren lit Randall.
1:41:51
City of Death justly gets all the accolades, but Nightmare of
1:41:54
Eden is my favorite. Once I realized how good a
1:41:57
script it had, the whole thing came alive so I could ignore its
1:42:00
various production issues. Andy Parkinson I adore
1:42:04
nightmare. Even Tris.
1:42:05
Weird accent. Oh, I love that.
1:42:07
Yes, the Mandrels have flares, but if they turn down the lights
1:42:10
they could have been epic. James H says best of the season.
1:42:13
A comic coating on a seriously dark story about drug addiction.
1:42:17
The best use of people hiding in pictures out of the three who
1:42:20
takes I can remember on it. A neat space accident set up and
1:42:24
nice digs about economy, class, space travel.
1:42:27
Absolutely love it. Jason Thompson Brilliant.
1:42:30
The Mandrels may not be the most effectively realized monster,
1:42:33
but the story about drug smuggling mixed in with the
1:42:35
sci-fi notion of ships emerging from hyperspace fusing together
1:42:39
is superb. David Gillespie Pratt says
1:42:42
another good script, but the production is rough around the
1:42:45
edges. The tension between leading man
1:42:47
and director is at times apparent also.
1:42:50
What the fuck is going on with that accent?
1:42:53
Oh, hold on to your flat hats everybody.
1:42:55
Fraser Gregory. Probably the weakest of the
1:42:57
season, but still plenty to enjoy, from David Dacres.
1:43:00
Oh no. To Luis Fianda's cool cod sorry
1:43:03
COD hutch accent. It's a deadly serious story,
1:43:07
played squarely for laughs until Tom reminds us that he's not
1:43:10
pissing around all season. The mantels are fat monsters,
1:43:13
the Art Deco setting is great, the clear inspiration for terror
1:43:17
of the verboids. And if nothing else, it's my
1:43:19
it's my birth story. Keep it.
1:43:22
Crushed Dummy says. Nightmare.
1:43:24
Takes a serious concept, comes it up and has a lot of fun.
1:43:27
There's some really nice ideas that production can mask at
1:43:30
times. Tom's go Away is amazing.
1:43:33
Michael Donahue eating is my favorite, and if it was made a
1:43:36
few years earlier or even a year later, it will be more highly
1:43:39
regarded. Daniel Night is very watchable
1:43:42
and quotable. OK, the Mandrels don't really
1:43:44
convince and Tris accent is bizarre, but imagine it could be
1:43:47
made better with a director who wasn't Alan Bromley.
1:43:51
Finally, Michael Storm A stronger script which needed a
1:43:54
stronger director to rein in Tom's excesses and other
1:43:57
questionable acting choices in the story.
1:44:00
It's a brave move to do a drug smuggling in Doctor Who and to
1:44:03
show the effects during its use and withdrawal is braver.
1:44:06
However, we have Alan Bromley who is clearly out of his depth.
1:44:09
I sense this was the production that made Williams throw in the
1:44:12
towel. So those are our comments.
1:44:16
So I'm putting it through. How do you guys stand on it?
1:44:20
Let's go to Mark. Let's try that again.
1:44:24
This again, I think sums up my feelings on season 17, I think
1:44:28
where perhaps the budget isn't quite helping the story be its
1:44:34
best. The quality of the script and
1:44:37
the ideas and the quality of the cast just sweep you away with
1:44:42
the story. And I think it's a great story.
1:44:46
I love the guest cast in this tryst is just, you know, another
1:44:52
in a long line of camp villains. Yeah, we have some very camp
1:44:56
security guards. What's going on there with us?
1:44:59
They look like they've just come out of, you know, GY Flingo or
1:45:04
yeah. No, it was the time.
1:45:06
Of the Village people, and those costumes are.
1:45:09
Very village. Now.
1:45:09
No, no, no. Absolutely Nice bit of sparkle
1:45:12
on them. Like it.
1:45:14
Not romanas. Best outfit.
1:45:16
I'm going to say that. No.
1:45:19
Didn't do a lot for me anyway. David.
1:45:21
Daca. David DACA, another great, great
1:45:25
actor. Really love him in all the stuff
1:45:27
I've seen him in. Yeah, like you said, it's quite
1:45:30
a brave thing to do to talk about drugs in a a family show
1:45:35
at that sort of time in the evening.
1:45:37
I think it's a quite an original idea to have the that pay off at
1:45:41
the end where it turns out that the the Mandrels are the the
1:45:45
drugs. Right, that twist.
1:45:47
Isn't it? Yeah, yeah, Tom's great.
1:45:50
And again, you really picked out all the best bits are from it.
1:45:55
You know that scene where I just tells him to go away?
1:45:57
Just, you know, anyone who says Tom isn't taking it seriously,
1:46:01
he's dialing. You know, he's phoning it in.
1:46:04
No, no, this is a great example of no, he's not.
1:46:08
He's, you know, that's why I love him so much.
1:46:10
He's he just turns on a dime. You know, it could be funny one
1:46:14
minute and just absolutely deadly steely the next.
1:46:17
So I'm going to put it through. I don't like it.
1:46:25
Gosh, finally. It's.
1:46:27
Not just me being a grumpy. Man, no.
1:46:32
I get what everyone's saying about the script and the the
1:46:36
plot, the the, the, the storyline in there.
1:46:39
It's. Just, I mean I don't a Doctor
1:46:43
Who's never done anything so grown up to this point.
1:46:46
I don't think that you know like the drug smuggling and and the
1:46:50
the there's a message in there. You know kids don't do drugs
1:46:52
because you. You know you'll end up.
1:46:55
Dead or whatever. But it's just buried beneath so
1:47:02
many layers of vadnais. Oh, give us a list.
1:47:09
Come. On, Yeah.
1:47:09
OK. OK so the first one I put down
1:47:13
is is Twist. I find his accent really, really
1:47:20
distracting. I mean I don't I don't even I
1:47:24
don't even know what it is. Is it Dutch?
1:47:26
Is it German? I don't even know.
1:47:28
And and it's so a low a low isn't it that that's you know it
1:47:33
just takes you out of the story and and obviously you know as as
1:47:38
time goes on we learn that he's he's one of the the villains in
1:47:42
this piece but that accent just just you can't take him
1:47:46
seriously because it is like I say so LOLO it's.
1:47:50
You know, I think it was a huge inspiration for the The Joy
1:47:53
Maker and The Giggle. They should have done was that
1:47:56
he was putting on that accent and he drops it when he's
1:48:00
revealed to be the bit. Like no one's going to think I'm
1:48:02
the villain when I'm this ridiculous.
1:48:04
Yeah, definitely. But yeah, so I find that and and
1:48:08
this one's probably going to be quite displeasing to you, Rod,
1:48:11
after you've made such a wonderful defence of them.
1:48:16
I think the The Mandrels are just, it just feels like it's
1:48:26
something like that that John Henson would have done.
1:48:28
You know, it could, they could, they would easily find
1:48:31
themselves in in The Muppets or Sesame Street.
1:48:34
To get a compliment. Well I I guess but you know the
1:48:39
fact that they're so top heavy and and they've got these long
1:48:42
slender legs and the flares and then and then they've got these
1:48:47
these ridiculously long arms and again it's sort of it doesn't it
1:48:53
takes away the jeopardy because they look so silly and and so so
1:48:57
I I find that really hard And then and I think the the the the
1:49:02
crowning glory of it is the crap futuristic space clothes.
1:49:10
You know you've got the the passengers on on the ship
1:49:14
they've got these like silver hooded boiler suits on with the
1:49:18
with the sunglasses and and I I know it's it's one thing I
1:49:23
noticed throughout this season that there's a lot of this where
1:49:29
people from the future they're wearing leotards with.
1:49:34
Sequins, yeah. Yeah, sort of.
1:49:37
Sparkly aprons over the top of them.
1:49:41
And yeah, so you've got the captain and the crew of the
1:49:44
ship. They're just, you know, they've
1:49:46
got these these Lycra kind of suits and then this space ABBA.
1:49:50
Excuse me, What happened then, ten years later in the 1980s?
1:49:54
Lycra sequins and leggings. There you go.
1:49:57
Inspirational, yeah. Yeah, Yeah.
1:49:59
The Trail Blazers, yeah. But, But yeah, I just, again,
1:50:05
it's sort of like I don't know whether it's because you see
1:50:09
things like like films like Blade Runner where basically the
1:50:12
future isn't very much different from what we've got now.
1:50:15
It's like clothes wise, you know fashion.
1:50:18
Fashion comes around in circles. You know, to denote the space
1:50:21
and future. You don't have to go glitter and
1:50:25
you know, you know the fact that the the the guy in you got that
1:50:31
guy in the silver spacesuit as well and it's just.
1:50:36
Oh. I I don't know and and and to
1:50:42
agree with Mark what the hell is Romana wearing it.
1:50:46
It's her worst costume in and she's she's got some really.
1:50:50
She wears some really lovely things but that one there is is,
1:50:53
is, is just. I've never.
1:50:56
Noticed that in episode one, right?
1:50:58
There's a sequel where she's got her hands behind her back and
1:51:00
because those sleeves are so baggy, it looks like her arms
1:51:05
have been lopped off. Once you see it, you can't not
1:51:08
see it anymore. It's a terrible costume.
1:51:11
Yeah. So you know I think it it's a
1:51:14
classic example of of a great idea let down by by really
1:51:21
really poor production values and and I think because I I'm
1:51:26
quite a visual person I I love I love all that side of things and
1:51:31
and for me here it just falls absolutely on its face and I
1:51:34
think that's why I don't want it.
1:51:36
I I just find it a difficult watch because there's so many
1:51:40
things that I'm getting cross about and distracted by that I I
1:51:45
lose I lose the story you know long ago.
1:51:49
So yes, and for me, I I want to bend this one.
1:51:51
I want to kill it off. So Joe, you've got the casting
1:51:54
vote. The first time I think there's
1:51:56
been a casting vote isn't. There, I think that's the.
1:51:59
Pressure. Grief, you know, Daniel, love
1:52:02
that woman who goes What's going on?
1:52:05
When are we going down to? Our show she.
1:52:08
Gets horribly murdered. Him in a moment, point in my
1:52:11
defence, stroke criticism to bring her up.
1:52:13
So I just thought I'd do it there.
1:52:15
OK, I can completely understand what Pakistan is saying because
1:52:21
I think this is one of the most innately directed.
1:52:25
Well, I mean, the director walked out halfway through and
1:52:28
then the producer, who's not a director, had to pick up the
1:52:31
camera. But the same thing happened a
1:52:33
year later with Warriors Gate. But fortunately they had some
1:52:36
very competent people like Graham Harper and that around to
1:52:38
pick up the camera and go, right, let's do it.
1:52:42
And all the the budgetary limitations are very clear.
1:52:46
Those dull yellow sets for the what, the luxury Empress line.
1:52:51
I mean, if I turned up to a cruise and it looked like that,
1:52:54
I'll be out of there straight away.
1:52:56
You know, the Jungle looks pretty poor compared to what we
1:53:00
just had increased from the pier, the Mandrels, which, I get
1:53:04
what you're saying, a brilliant idea.
1:53:06
They're absolutely brilliant and they're fucking laughable,
1:53:09
aren't they? I mean, you just could not show
1:53:11
this to a non Doctor Who fan and walking away with your
1:53:15
reputation salvage, could you? You're just, oh, just terrible.
1:53:19
So I do think, yeah, the look of it is really distracting.
1:53:22
And the costumes, I mean, I like a bit of camping Doctor Who.
1:53:25
We all do. We all do.
1:53:28
This is. Too much for me.
1:53:30
I mean, there are. I don't know if there's that
1:53:31
many alpha males watching Doctor Who, apart from obviously the
1:53:35
two gentlemen in front of me right now.
1:53:37
But if they? Slipped their joke if they were.
1:53:40
They're in a bit of trouble watching this, aren't they?
1:53:43
Although to be fair, who brought our resurrection of the Daleks?
1:53:45
Yeah, that's perfectly for your alpha male and it's soldiers and
1:53:49
death and murder and. Explosion.
1:53:50
Rodney Bewes mincing around with his little earring.
1:53:53
I can't stand the confusion in my mind, Mark.
1:53:58
However I want to put this through because I think despite
1:54:03
the production limitations, it is a really fun story to watch.
1:54:06
I think it's the best script of the year.
1:54:08
I think this is a better script than City of Death in terms of
1:54:12
its structure, in terms of it's witty lines and it and how it
1:54:16
tackles a theme. It's a better story than City of
1:54:19
Death. CDs is more polished.
1:54:20
I think the Lions have got a bit more Polish to them and where
1:54:24
but this is, this is a better sort of all rounder.
1:54:28
And I do, I think where the direction doesn't have too much
1:54:31
energy to it. Everybody else is bringing
1:54:34
energy, so the actors are bringing a ton of energy.
1:54:37
Dudley Simpson is there's a sequence where the Doctor's just
1:54:40
running down a load of stairs and the piano is going.
1:54:42
The cameras are sort of very slowly going around after him,
1:54:47
but I'm convinced that's done at a lick.
1:54:50
So I think everybody else is is, given this, the sort of Hazaz
1:54:54
that it needs. I've written down the drug
1:54:57
allegory again, and in a season which does unusual twists with
1:55:01
the monsters throughout the dialects in the logical impasse,
1:55:05
the creature being the good guy, the mandrels not being one, but
1:55:10
the entire race of people. The most interesting twist of
1:55:13
always that the mandrels are the drug.
1:55:15
That's a really, really interesting twist.
1:55:18
Tom Malala again. Absolutely joyous to watch.
1:55:22
You know, utterly in love with each other.
1:55:25
Tom has one of his best ever lives where he goes.
1:55:27
I don't work for anyone. I'm just having fun.
1:55:30
You know. It's one they they're wonderful
1:55:32
and sorry everybody, but I love Tri Saxon.
1:55:36
I think it's absolutely outrageous how anyone fought
1:55:41
away with. Are you claiming superior
1:55:43
knowledge? You know, like.
1:55:46
I know my favorite one. Come on, Joe, you must know the
1:55:48
answer to us. And he died.
1:55:50
Oh yeah. Oh, did he die?
1:55:54
He died. Doctor, it was just a little
1:55:58
side note. I just needed a bit of finance,
1:56:00
you know? Oh God.
1:56:01
I mean, it's terrible. Don't get me wrong, Dan.
1:56:03
You're right. It's awful.
1:56:06
But it's very funny. So it's going through.
1:56:09
It's another one round. Popular.
1:56:11
So all four so far have gone through.
1:56:14
Gentlemen, shall we return to our second and final batch of
1:56:17
overall comments made by our listeners?
1:56:21
So if we can start with Mark, that would be fantastic.
1:56:27
OK, so first up we have heard from Andrew Kernow.
1:56:31
Hello Andrew. Andrew says my favorite season
1:56:34
as an 8 year old. I loved it unequivocally, and
1:56:37
was genuinely shocked when I discovered that it was widely
1:56:40
derided. I still love it now, although
1:56:43
perhaps not quite so uncritically.
1:56:45
It's a season stuffed full of ideas and concepts and my gosh,
1:56:49
what fantastic cliffhangers. My all time favorite among them.
1:56:53
OK, and then Next up, we've got Crashed Dummy.
1:56:57
Unironically. I love it.
1:56:59
It's the version of Tom I love the most.
1:57:02
Romana 2 is his best companion among some tough competition.
1:57:07
If I had to keep only one season of the 4th Doctor, this would be
1:57:10
it. Have you ever found out when
1:57:13
people like like something that other people there's like an
1:57:16
apology unironically you said at the start there, just love it,
1:57:21
you know? Yeah.
1:57:23
It gets me when people say, oh, you know, it's just what's the
1:57:27
phrase they use. It's guilty pleasures.
1:57:30
There's no such thing. You love it, you know?
1:57:32
Just brace it and go with. I think I'm quite guilty of
1:57:35
doing that at a time you know where you go.
1:57:39
I know it's not a popular opinion, but and then you know
1:57:42
you're going contrary to the to the flow, you know it just, I
1:57:46
don't know whether that's human nature, maybe.
1:57:48
What is your biggest guilty pleasure, which has now been
1:57:50
recoined? Just a pleasure.
1:57:53
Should we, should we clarify Doctor Who terms, That is.
1:57:56
Otherwise we might begin. It's a very dodgy area.
1:58:01
Well, I had a very up and down relationship with Horns and
1:58:05
Neiman that I've championed. Like I said earlier, you know,
1:58:09
it's as a kid, you love it. And when you get into your
1:58:12
teenage years, you want to be taken seriously.
1:58:15
You don't want to be seen as liking anything that's a bit,
1:58:17
you know, naff potentially and then you get to that point where
1:58:22
you think, well actually, no, I've really enjoyed this.
1:58:25
I'm going to go with it. Did you have a viewing then
1:58:27
where you just went? Oh no, I was right.
1:58:29
I was right all along. I don't think I really had a
1:58:34
sort of road to Damascus moment but I just it just you just go
1:58:39
back to again it's it's that sort of someone mentioned before
1:58:44
it's like a comfort blanket and you go back to those ones that
1:58:47
you're really familiar with and I don't know there's just
1:58:50
something about this season that is just it's so magical.
1:58:58
I can't quite there's no I can't quite grasp a being a clear word
1:59:03
to really sum it up. It's just I can, It's just
1:59:07
special. Exquisite.
1:59:09
Absolutely exquisite. I'm not quite a terrible way of
1:59:15
deviating from these comments, but Dan, sorry.
1:59:17
What's yours then? I've got two.
1:59:21
I've got The Day of the Daleks and I think it was, it was my
1:59:28
first VHS cassette. So I think there's obviously
1:59:31
that nostalgic kind of element about that.
1:59:35
But but I you know quite often like if if I'm off poorly from
1:59:39
work I'll I'll pop that one on because I think like like Mark
1:59:43
was saying it's that sort of there's a comfort to these
1:59:47
stories that perhaps aren't well loved or or is recognised as as
1:59:51
being top tier Doctor Who. But they they just they just
1:59:56
they they just mean something special to us.
1:59:57
And the other one is Battlefield because I'm a I'm a I'm I'm you
2:00:03
know big McCoy fan. Obviously, Battlefield is
2:00:06
probably the runt of the litter when it comes to that season.
2:00:10
And yeah, again I just find it such it's it's gloriously camper
2:00:15
fun romp and and I and I really love it Yeah so so those are my
2:00:21
2. So you married or what?
2:00:26
Oh, that's a lot. Are you?
2:00:28
Not. I'm not proposing in.
2:00:31
Fact and Angela. It wouldn't be the first time.
2:00:36
Sorry, sorry, back to the comments.
2:00:38
Hello John Arnold, if you're listening.
2:00:42
And the lads from the Polish Box.
2:00:45
Yeah. He's a bigamist.
2:00:48
Yeah, poor Mark. Anyway, Next up we've heard
2:00:55
from. Yeah.
2:00:58
Still not dead? I couldn't defend myself.
2:01:02
Talking with your man for Joe, it's not.
2:01:04
Not the first and not the. Last No.
2:01:08
Shall I continue? Go for.
2:01:10
It OK, we've heard from Tom Newsom.
2:01:13
Hello Tom and Tom says. It's a shame things look a bit
2:01:17
tatty, and Tom's behaviour means the rest of the cast don't take
2:01:20
it as seriously, but at least half the scripts are pretty
2:01:24
polished. A shame the rest completely fall
2:01:26
apart by the later episodes with some very weak endings.
2:01:33
That's the Next up, I've got big Orange Michael, he says.
2:01:39
When I first watched Doctor Who, I enjoyed Season 17 because I
2:01:43
love Tom Baker. Looking back now, I see it's
2:01:47
wildly uneven, with some great highs and a few low points.
2:01:51
Douglas Adams is a better writer with someone else editing his
2:01:54
ideas. Michael Donahue's been in touch
2:01:57
and he says it's a fun series and never boring.
2:02:00
Tom and Lala are great together. Next up we've got Anthony
2:02:05
Carroll. Strange, but fun season.
2:02:08
Tom is a bit over the top bit. Well.
2:02:12
It's time. When is he not?
2:02:14
Yeah. Paul Smye says season 17 is
2:02:18
great. Tom and Lala are having so much
2:02:21
fun. Then we got rich as a child.
2:02:27
I do recall the tatty look of some episodes, but that didn't
2:02:30
detract from the excitement of the adventure.
2:02:33
What was shocking was when the show just stopped in January as
2:02:37
we were used to it running until March.
2:02:41
Yeah, that's the Sharder effect. It's a shame, Kenny Smith says.
2:02:46
This was the first season that I remember watching him for as a
2:02:48
proper fan, and it's humor very much still makes me smile now.
2:02:52
I loved it at 5 and adore it even more at 49 1/2.
2:02:57
Oh, great answer. Yeah, then we've got Colin
2:03:02
Hicks. With the exception of City of
2:03:05
Death, it looks cheap and it's all done without energy,
2:03:09
conviction or self respect. See you.
2:03:13
It's one of the main contribution contributors to the
2:03:16
pre 2005 public perception of Doctor Who being a bit rubbish.
2:03:22
The books are a bit better, but I'm still not a fan.
2:03:26
All opinions are valid. It's.
2:03:28
Not for everyone. No, no.
2:03:32
Mark Harrison says I'm baffled whenever this run comes lower
2:03:35
than Season 18. Self loathing, pseudo scientific
2:03:39
dry. White toast in fan rankings.
2:03:41
Me too, Mark. Me too.
2:03:44
Hi Sihal. If you're listening, he'll be
2:03:49
throwing his MP3 player out the window.
2:03:52
It's fizzy, funny, adventurous and all over the bloody shop.
2:03:55
And that's how I like it. Yep.
2:03:59
Then we've got Charlie Burn Barn.
2:04:01
Sorry, considering all the problems behind the scenes, it's
2:04:05
quite enjoyable. It has the magical pairing of
2:04:08
Tom and Lala and that familiar Douglas Adams humor that is set
2:04:12
up for Hitchhikers. More of a table wine.
2:04:18
And we've heard from Dave Javu and Dave says it's had a
2:04:24
deserved recalibration in fans thinking very little of the
2:04:28
pantomime of law. And then and we have got, I
2:04:32
think this is Triumph visual with respect to poor David
2:04:36
Braley who has tough shoes to fill.
2:04:39
I do wish the Blu-ray release had paid John Leeson to do a
2:04:44
read up our. Professor is dead.
2:04:46
What's wrong with? Him.
2:04:49
I must admit, when I was watching these and my 20 year
2:04:54
old son came into the room, he goes, why does canine sound like
2:04:58
that? That's rubbish.
2:05:00
So, so wow. Yeah, definitely a John Leeson.
2:05:07
Oh, poor David. Herald of Creation.
2:05:11
They do those fantastic polls, don't they?
2:05:15
On Twitter. I'm not calling it X, Herald of
2:05:18
Creation says. I know the general feeling is
2:05:21
that the era was running out of steam and the season was mostly
2:05:24
shoddy, but on a personal level it's very important for me.
2:05:29
In 1979 we went from being a family of 6 to a family of three
2:05:34
as my brother went to uni, my sister got married and my mom
2:05:38
died. Season 17 was when I first
2:05:41
started watching it seriously and thinking about what I was
2:05:45
seeing and where the story might go week to week.
2:05:50
And then finally we have Darren Litt.
2:05:53
Randall's lots of rollicking around the universe having fun
2:05:58
adventures. What a lovely summary.
2:06:00
Who does? That.
2:06:02
Yes, right. So gentlemen, we've got two
2:06:05
stories left. We've got City of Death.
2:06:07
It's odd how some of the big hitters stay till the second
2:06:10
round. Round and Creature from the Pit.
2:06:13
So we started with Mark last time.
2:06:15
So let's start with Dan this time.
2:06:16
Pick your story, City of Death, or Creature from the Pit.
2:06:24
Yeah, sorry, Mark. I'm going to go with City of
2:06:27
Death. That's fine, absolutely fine.
2:06:30
So I I think we've kind of alluded to this fruit throughout
2:06:34
this this episode and and a lot of the comments that City of
2:06:39
death it's it's top tier Doctor Who isn't it.
2:06:44
And yeah, you know, and and I found it really hard to just get
2:06:50
down to three reasons why this is so good.
2:06:54
I've got all night. Don't worry about it.
2:06:56
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:06:58
I'll just keep going on then. Yes.
2:07:01
So I think #1 is the score for this.
2:07:07
It's just absolutely beautiful and maybe the most iconic Doctor
2:07:14
Who score. I mean, we can all hum this to
2:07:17
our hearts content, can't we Really?
2:07:19
Is that a challenge? Well.
2:07:22
If you want to take it up Joe, but yeah and and yeah definitely
2:07:31
for me Dudley Simpson's best work I think you know it's it's
2:07:35
the most memorable 1. Anyhow, I think then you've got
2:07:42
the wonderful setting of Paris as well.
2:07:45
And I I think like we we've already mentioned it as well
2:07:48
that that there's some beautiful location work throughout this
2:07:54
this season, whether it's, yes, the quarian destiny of the
2:07:59
Daleks, that that with the caves that bit is awesome or
2:08:03
Cambridge. But then you've got Paris and
2:08:05
that kind of just Trump's it all.
2:08:06
And yeah, I know with with with City of Death, there is a lot of
2:08:12
running around. But I guess that's really to
2:08:15
kind of show off that this is the first time that we've
2:08:18
actually gone abroad in Doctor Who to kind of film locations.
2:08:23
And. And because of that, it kind of
2:08:26
gives an energy to it, you know, because there is a lot of like
2:08:34
toing and throwing isn't there from like the the art gallery to
2:08:37
the cafe to the Chateau back to the cafe, another art gallery,
2:08:41
you know, kind of that sort of thing going on.
2:08:44
But because like a lot of the time, Lala and and Tom are just
2:08:48
bombing their way from Paris. And it's not the Home Counties
2:08:52
or another quarry. So it's so refreshing so.
2:08:56
Different but but it it it just looks so stunning and I think it
2:08:59
it it gives like I say there's there's an energy about it that
2:09:03
it gives to to this story. I think I think there's
2:09:06
obviously energy as well that Douglas Adams dialogue and his
2:09:10
script gives to it. So even in those quieter moments
2:09:14
when we're in the Chateau and all that sort of business where
2:09:17
they're not running around and we're not looking at lovely
2:09:20
visuals of Paris, there's still energy to it because of that
2:09:25
it's just yeah he's just really on the money with this and
2:09:28
considering didn't didn't they only have like a weekend to to
2:09:31
write this one. Douglas Adams and Greg Millions.
2:09:34
Yeah. Oh, it's.
2:09:36
Brilliant. And then I think we we've talked
2:09:42
about some of the the performances throughout this
2:09:45
season, whether it's David Dacre, I've got his name now.
2:09:53
Christopher Lee? No.
2:09:55
Deed. So, oh, Brian Brown crowded.
2:09:56
Brian. Crowded.
2:09:59
You got all these like, but I think the best performance is
2:10:03
Julian Glover. I just think he's absolutely
2:10:08
superb in this as as the count, as Scaroff, as Captain Tank
2:10:15
ready? You know, he's got all these
2:10:18
different different parts, but he he's just just brilliant.
2:10:21
He's so suave and sophisticated. Yeah.
2:10:26
He can he can just then I mean we're talking about how Tom can
2:10:32
just fit but he can as well where he, you know he's very
2:10:35
charming but then there's this steely kind of focusness to to
2:10:41
to him and it's it's just for me it's one of the highlights of of
2:10:46
the this entire season his his performance in this as as as as
2:10:51
as the counts and he. He delivers the best end of
2:10:54
cliffhanger line ever, I think when he goes.
2:10:57
I think that's exactly what I should be asking you, Doctor.
2:11:01
Oh, it's. Great.
2:11:03
It's great. Yeah, because because I like, I
2:11:07
like that bit where he's talking to Herman about selling one of
2:11:11
the one of the Bibles and he's going well.
2:11:14
How can you sell one of these discreetly and he goes, well,
2:11:17
well, do it as discreetly as you can and he's quite, you know,
2:11:21
can't do it, but then he goes, just do it.
2:11:23
Will you like that? You know it's it's I I just love
2:11:28
the way it kind of changes and and and sort of ebbs and flows
2:11:31
you know and. You remember that bit where it's
2:11:36
given single word? I like concise answers.
2:11:38
Yes. Good.
2:11:39
And he's only giving one syllable words and he's making
2:11:42
them all sound like a threat. Yeah.
2:11:45
Yeah, I I just think it's just just brilliant and you you can
2:11:48
understand why he's he's kind of gone on to be in really big
2:11:52
films you know like Indiana Jones, James Bond because he
2:11:57
he's he's a superb actor and it kind of feels that we were lucky
2:12:03
to have him. I I know we had him earlier as
2:12:06
as as Richard the the Lionheart in the Crusades, and he was good
2:12:10
in that as well. But he.
2:12:12
Didn't rip his face off and have a.
2:12:13
Spaghetti. No, he didn't.
2:12:15
But he did get the line. You defy me with the Pope?
2:12:19
Sorry. Yeah, Bait's not as good as I
2:12:21
am, Scarah. Through me, my people shall live
2:12:24
again. There's no competition.
2:12:28
I mean, there are some, There are some interesting questions
2:12:34
that arise that I don't know how you've been married to.
2:12:38
A woman. We're going.
2:12:39
There, and she doesn't. She doesn't know that he's an
2:12:43
alien. I mean, do they have separate
2:12:46
beds, separate rooms or well? They do.
2:12:50
They allude to it a couple of times, don't they?
2:12:51
Because. And the kind of him she thinks
2:12:54
possibly is gay because he's downstairs with Professor again.
2:12:58
Professor again, yeah. So there's a bit of there's a
2:13:00
bit of tension. There I.
2:13:01
Think. Have you seen him?
2:13:02
Kerensky. Exactly he.
2:13:06
Likes the older man. Yeah.
2:13:09
Yes it's it's kind of interesting and and the way that
2:13:14
it feels like she's convinced quite easily by the doctor that
2:13:18
that her husband might not be all that he seems that seems
2:13:21
that seems that's you know he only says a couple of things and
2:13:24
and she's she's kind of wondering who she's married to.
2:13:30
Isn't there something in the novel about the the bracelet
2:13:32
having some sort of extra effect on her?
2:13:36
OK, I seem to remember. Yeah, I think that.
2:13:40
Rings a bell. Yeah, that would make sense.
2:13:41
That would make sense. You're right on screen, it's not
2:13:44
overly. No, no, but I but I think it's a
2:13:49
really small cast as well. But they're all brilliant.
2:13:53
You've got, you know Durgan is just amazing.
2:13:56
It's it's a lovely supporting character.
2:13:58
Start back, everyone Start back. You know the most important
2:14:03
punch in history? Brilliant, you know.
2:14:09
Return of Packer. Yeah.
2:14:12
Oh, yes. Yeah, one of his many
2:14:13
appearances in Doctor. Yeah, yeah.
2:14:15
And even even the little the little lady That's the tour
2:14:19
guide. And.
2:14:21
She's great. I mean, she she she has.
2:14:24
Such so few scenes, so little dialogue.
2:14:28
But she's brilliant, you know? And.
2:14:30
Excuse me, Yeah. But yes, there's so much to love
2:14:38
about this story and not like. Catherine Shell, she's a very
2:14:41
beautiful woman. Properly properly.
2:14:44
That's what Joe and I would say, yeah.
2:14:47
No, she's beautiful. Yeah, yeah.
2:14:49
But yeah, it's just brilliant. So how could we not put this
2:14:53
through to the next? Round fantastic.
2:14:55
Should we go through to the comments?
2:14:56
Joe Short says Duggan is the best companion we never had.
2:15:02
James H Oh dear. Smug, overly padded and so
2:15:07
obsessed with trying to be witty that it fails to remember that
2:15:10
it should make sense. Scarff is possibly the dumbest
2:15:13
Badly baddie ever. The time travel is baffling,
2:15:16
even by whose standards a failed attempt to salvage a total mess.
2:15:20
Now he's not a big fan of the Steven Moffat era, so I can see
2:15:23
why I don't like this. But I think he's yeah, he's
2:15:25
quite clear on that, Lucy. Lucy McCall says One of my
2:15:30
favourites are theft fakes that aren't fakes, splintered alien
2:15:34
beings and creation myths. Plus multiple Julian Glovers.
2:15:38
The moment when the Renaissance version of Scaroff enters is one
2:15:41
of the best reveals ever. I was slightly disappointed when
2:15:44
that went out, because when you see the shadow, I thought that
2:15:47
was a Sontaran coming in. Because in the shadow of the
2:15:50
doorway you see the helmet under the the captain's helmet under
2:15:54
his arm, and thought, Oh my God, they brought the Sontarans into
2:15:57
this as well. And then Julian Glover stepped
2:15:59
forward. I.
2:16:00
Was a tad. When this came out. 13.
2:16:03
He was even a big geek then, weren't you?
2:16:05
Yeah. Changed.
2:16:07
John Bensalia says my first ever Doctor Who's story at the age of
2:16:10
five and most likely the reason I became a fan.
2:16:13
Still a top five story even with Kerensky going down going down
2:16:17
the disco at the end of Part 3, it's.
2:16:20
When he does the funny movements.
2:16:21
When he's. When he's.
2:16:23
Fine. He's doing like a disco movie,
2:16:24
is he? Yeah, he's doing a movie or
2:16:27
something like that. OK, YMCA maybe.
2:16:29
Fair enough. Do.
2:16:30
You, Jason, do you think it's not weird that no one thought to
2:16:33
reverse the process like they did with the chicken for poor
2:16:36
occurrence? They all thought it was really
2:16:38
annoying. Oh, right.
2:16:40
OK. They had.
2:16:40
They hadn't paid him for episode 4, so.
2:16:43
Yeah, it. Seems really sad that yeah, they
2:16:45
reverse the chicken, not the human.
2:16:48
Being poor, Kerensky. Jason Thompson says a classic.
2:16:52
Julian Glover is superb. Duggan and Romana are a great
2:16:55
pairing, and I love that it's Duggan who realizes why someone
2:16:58
needs to steal the Mona Lisa when he has 6 copies already.
2:17:01
The cliffhanger to Part 2 is one of the very best.
2:17:04
Daniel Knight, Exquisite. Everybody's on top of their
2:17:07
game. Those Paris scenes are
2:17:09
beautifully cinematic. Julian Glover is perfect,
2:17:12
especially in the Part 2 cliffhanger.
2:17:14
Like all good villains, he says. The word Doctor like a swear
2:17:18
word. Daniel Rawnsley says everything
2:17:21
that's been said about City of Death, then and now, both
2:17:24
positive and negative, is probably true and then some,
2:17:27
which is why it remains one of the most quintessential docto
2:17:30
stories ever. James Lark One of the many
2:17:33
things that elevates City of Death is that for once, the
2:17:35
sets, models, and location work are all first rate opulent even.
2:17:40
Fraser Gregory says the Doctor and Romana spend most of the
2:17:43
four episodes running round and round the streets of Paris,
2:17:46
albeit to one of Dudley's better scores.
2:17:48
But Tom and Lalla are having the time of their lives and it's
2:17:51
infectious. Certainly the rest of the cast,
2:17:53
and what a cast it is, rise to the occasion to match them.
2:17:57
Star of the show, though, is David Agnew, whose script is so
2:18:00
sharp you could shave with it. Keep it.
2:18:04
Tom Newsom rightfully praised as one of the best stories ever,
2:18:07
mainly because the script and performances, but probably
2:18:09
helped that it's set in the 1970s so it doesn't matter if it
2:18:12
looks cheap and grubby. LSJ says.
2:18:16
I don't care if it's cliche, City of Death is the best thing
2:18:19
about Season 17. I think you've got this name
2:18:22
right down and I'm going to trip up on it now.
2:18:25
Trim Triumph. Visual.
2:18:27
The highlight of the season and Tom and Lala's relationship.
2:18:30
Oh, Passing the Jacker off plot is the great SF concept, and
2:18:35
it's the best guest cast of the season.
2:18:38
Joe Joe, Llewellyn said It's just a masterpiece.
2:18:41
Story, dialogue, guests. All brilliant.
2:18:44
Rightly deserves all the praise. Never get tired of it.
2:18:48
Take the piss out of my American accent again.
2:18:50
Andy Parkinson, the greatest story in Who history.
2:18:52
Tom and Lala absolutely shine and the sporting cast are all
2:18:56
perfect. The dialogue is top drawer.
2:18:58
Two, you're a beautiful woman. Probably is iconic.
2:19:02
Big orange, Michael says, quotable and like nothing else
2:19:04
in Canon. Michael Storm.
2:19:06
The perfect mix of everything that Williams and Adams set out
2:19:09
to do. The cast jump on the dialogue
2:19:11
and give it that extra Polish. The storyline is strong and
2:19:14
interesting, which I feel is more down to David Fisher than
2:19:17
Douglas Adams. I mean, that could be down to
2:19:19
Graham Williams. Judging by the original
2:19:21
synopsis. I'm surprised that Big Finish
2:19:23
haven't done a range of Bulldog Drummond with alien style series
2:19:27
starring Duggan. Don't give him ideas.
2:19:31
I mean soon, Rich says Douglas. Score for City is memorable even
2:19:35
today. And finally, London Calling
2:19:37
never understood the reverence over City of Death.
2:19:40
But then again, I used to be a big Adams fan and now I'm really
2:19:43
not, and I'm not sure why. Interesting.
2:19:47
OK. So Don has suggested putting it
2:19:49
through. What do we think guys?
2:19:52
Mark Well, it's a yes from me, obviously.
2:19:58
I love Douglas Adams. I do think that David Fisher
2:20:01
deserves a lot more credit than he gets.
2:20:03
I think he's a really good writer.
2:20:05
I think his other stories that made it in were really good.
2:20:10
And you got Stones of Blood and Under the Tower was one of his
2:20:15
as well, isn't it? I think, yeah, from.
2:20:18
The Pit and leisure hive. Yeah, yeah, I think they're all
2:20:21
great stories. Obviously something went
2:20:25
slightly awry because they had to do a very hasty rewrite.
2:20:29
So as you alluded to before, we had Douglas Adams and Graham
2:20:34
Williams. I think Graham had to lock
2:20:35
Douglas into the room to actually get him to complete it
2:20:38
because he had a a very famous attitude to deadlines and.
2:20:44
It was like spooning coffee into his mouth.
2:20:47
Get it rid. Of I must bring up that story I
2:20:51
was going to mention with Ken Grieve.
2:20:53
So Ken and Douglas are back at the the office and everyone else
2:21:00
has gone off on a Jolly to Paris and they're feeling a bit
2:21:03
knocked. They've been left out.
2:21:05
So they decide to go and join the cast and crew.
2:21:11
So they they go over to to Paris and they have a few drinks and
2:21:18
they have a few more, one or two more.
2:21:21
Again, they turn up. They're not universally welcomed
2:21:25
by the rest of the cast. Admittedly, they were very worse
2:21:29
for wear by this point. And they end up going on this
2:21:32
massive pub crawl all the way through.
2:21:34
And I think they traveled into like different countries at some
2:21:37
point. And then they managed to find
2:21:41
their way back to the UK again. And they get asked, you know,
2:21:49
and then the following day in the office, oh, what have you
2:21:51
been up to then? Oh, you wouldn't believe me if I
2:21:53
told them. With all our weekends and all
2:21:56
that, right? Well, yeah, quite.
2:21:58
No, it's a fantastic story. I love the cast.
2:22:01
Julian Glover, as Dan was saying, he's just so perfect as
2:22:06
a lead villain. David Graham, the voice of the
2:22:12
Daleks. And of course he was involved in
2:22:15
Thunderbirds and all those other fantastic shows.
2:22:18
Still going strong now. I don't know how old he is now,
2:22:20
but yeah, bless him, he's still going.
2:22:24
And we didn't mention, I suppose we alluded to it.
2:22:27
We didn't mention that fantastic cameo from Eleanor Braun and
2:22:30
John Cleese. That's just the first time you
2:22:33
see that. You just think, oh, wow, I guess
2:22:36
it's another Marmite thing. Some people will not like it.
2:22:39
Others will, will love it. Yeah.
2:22:43
I think the whole thing from start to finish is just so much
2:22:46
fun. As you've said, it's a memorable
2:22:48
score, some wonderful, wonderful lines of dialogue.
2:22:52
I think my favorite one is what a wonderful Butler.
2:22:55
He's so violent. Hello.
2:23:01
So yes, of course it's going through fabulous Joe.
2:23:06
I mean, I don't think any of us is not going to put see you
2:23:09
there through. None of us is that mad.
2:23:11
Although, Rod, I have seen you put some very strange things
2:23:14
through in the past. So maybe you will throw some
2:23:17
very strange things. Yeah, maybe you will condemn
2:23:19
this one. Karen, The fireplace guys.
2:23:21
I mean, what is he thinking anyway?
2:23:25
I essentially the three cliffhangers I want to talk
2:23:29
about because everyone you like, you come with the music, the
2:23:31
cast and everything else. But I love how this is
2:23:35
structured, this story. And I do think Graham Williams
2:23:38
deserves more credit that he sometimes gets because I think
2:23:41
the plotting, they've taken David Fisher's ideas and some of
2:23:46
that. But I think Graham Williams, he
2:23:48
does the same thing with Invasion of Time, which is a
2:23:50
very robustly plotted story, and this is plotted to the hill.
2:23:54
You sort of add the Douglas Adam Sheen of the witty dialogue to
2:23:58
it as well, and that's why it's so perfect.
2:24:00
So the cliffhanger to episode one brilliantly links the story
2:24:04
back to the start, because you're thinking for the entire
2:24:07
25. But what the hell has this got
2:24:08
to do with that weird spaghetti man in the first scene in some
2:24:13
of the most beautiful model work I've ever seen?
2:24:15
Watching that back today, it's stunning.
2:24:17
And it on the Blu-ray, it just pops off the screen.
2:24:21
So that is an excellent cliffhanger.
2:24:23
Which tells us, right this is a continuation of that.
2:24:26
That wasn't just a random scene we threw in at the beginning.
2:24:29
The end of episode 2 is my favorite of the story, where
2:24:34
Count Scalioni comes through the door and then you suddenly
2:24:37
realise either this fella is able to time travel or as it
2:24:43
lays out there are splinters have been free time.
2:24:45
It's a brilliant idea and it's I prefer cliffhangers now.
2:24:49
When I was younger it was Jeopardy cliffhangers.
2:24:51
As an older man, I prefer cliffhangers that push the story
2:24:55
in another direction, and this really does in a really
2:24:58
interesting way. And then the cliffhanger to
2:25:01
episode 3. It's just as we learned
2:25:04
basically the whole of the Earth is going to be put inside this
2:25:06
bubble and is that half the three?
2:25:10
I don't actually remember that lands.
2:25:12
Is that 3? Yeah, three.
2:25:13
Well, three. Is Kerensky doing his disco
2:25:15
dancing as he gets as he dies? This is basically what's going
2:25:18
to happen to the whole world if you don't do do what I tell you.
2:25:21
This is another great cliffhanger again.
2:25:23
And just to top it off, Cliffhanger episode 4 or then
2:25:27
dancing off down into Paris is just gorgeous and I don't love
2:25:32
that music. At the end.
2:25:33
One of the most romantic ends to a Doctor Who story.
2:25:36
Do you know I went to Paris after watching this a?
2:25:39
Lot. And expected it to be, as I
2:25:43
think City of Death gave me an unreal, unrealistic expectation
2:25:46
of what Paris was going to be like.
2:25:48
I thought it was going to be super romantic and actually I
2:25:52
was struck at the poverty that I saw in Paris.
2:25:55
It's sort of like poverty and opulence side by side on the
2:25:58
same St. Most of the time it was really
2:26:00
shocking. But the Paris in City of Death
2:26:05
is just a thing to behold. It's gorgeous.
2:26:07
It's it's the most adventurous location you could ever have.
2:26:10
And as Dan said, all that dashing around, who cares?
2:26:13
It looks gorgeous. A lot of people say I was just
2:26:15
padding as a traveller and with that music slapped over the top,
2:26:19
it's some of the best Doctor Who scenes ever.
2:26:21
There is a one thing that in this season there's a there's
2:26:25
something wrong with every story, whether it's the design
2:26:29
or the monster, there's a performance out, whatever.
2:26:32
Everything seems in this, and it's rare that that happens in
2:26:36
Doctor Who. You know, the score, the
2:26:38
direction, the design, the budgets there for, for the only
2:26:43
time this season, probably the writing, the plotting, of course
2:26:47
it's going through. It is perfect.
2:26:50
OK, so was superfluous for me anyway, but obviously I was
2:26:54
going to Chuck this one out because I like to be contrary,
2:26:58
so this one's going. Oh, whatever.
2:27:00
OK. No, of course it's not.
2:27:02
How could it go? He's, I thought.
2:27:04
You were going to be Gary Russell there for a minute.
2:27:07
I will say. He's on the next episode.
2:27:09
I'll direct the thing where he's going to come out.
2:27:11
Gary. Don't think it's my favorite to
2:27:14
the season, but it's still majestic and beautiful.
2:27:18
You've covered a lot of the reasons I was going to cover.
2:27:21
I thought you were all going to go on about the plots and the
2:27:23
characters and the acting, so I thought I'd go different with my
2:27:26
reasons. But you've covered them, so
2:27:28
Dudley Simpson was going to be my first one.
2:27:31
I picked this on Jim Allen biz What's in the Box?
2:27:33
I picked incidental music as one of my favorite things, and this
2:27:36
score from Paris was my example of that.
2:27:39
I think it's beautiful. Dudley Simpson gets criticized
2:27:41
an awful lot and told that the scores are interchangeable
2:27:44
between Doctor Who and Blake 7. Bollocks When would you get
2:27:47
music like this on Blake Seven? It's glorious music and you've
2:27:53
got other obviously the main theme of them running around is
2:27:55
gorgeous. I'd also written down as you
2:27:57
write said Joe, that beautiful melody at the very end when they
2:28:00
walk off towards the camera, which fades magnificently into
2:28:04
the. The theme music is probably one
2:28:06
of the most beautiful bits of music to end the Doctor Who
2:28:08
episode. What about the saxophone when he
2:28:12
she gets the gun on? Yeah.
2:28:14
Well, all the way through. She's got really melodic.
2:28:16
He's doing a bit of a Murray Gold before Murray Gold did.
2:28:18
He's giving everyone themes in this story.
2:28:21
So you've got that really right, that very seductive theme for
2:28:23
The Countess. You've got some really
2:28:25
melodramatic stings, but that works really well with Duggan
2:28:28
because Duggan's that very boy's own melodramatic character.
2:28:31
So all the music is just bloody glorious and it's interesting.
2:28:34
It comes off the back of Destiny.
2:28:36
We had less than 5 minutes music across the whole 4 episodes of
2:28:40
Destiny. Destiny episode 4 doesn't have a
2:28:42
single note of instantal. Music.
2:28:44
That's why he's doing double the work on this one.
2:28:46
Exactly. We go from that to this.
2:28:48
It's absolutely beautiful, The dialogue.
2:28:51
I I I hate to think how many times I've dropped these lines
2:28:55
into casual conversation. Usually people then look bemused
2:28:58
at me because it doesn't quite fit.
2:28:59
But, you know, should we take the lift or fly?
2:29:02
Let's not be as stuntatious. All right then, let's fly.
2:29:06
Lovely, my dear. I don't think he's as stupid as
2:29:08
he seems, my dear. Nobody could be as stupid as he
2:29:12
seems. They must just think.
2:29:13
What a prick. Every time someone says the Mona
2:29:19
Lisa, all I that dreadful woman with no eyebrows who wouldn't
2:29:22
sit still. Oh, that's great.
2:29:24
It's great. And.
2:29:25
It's the jacket off that want all the chickens, is it?
2:29:29
One thing I can't stand being tortured by someone with cold
2:29:32
hands. Yeah, it's the dialogue just
2:29:35
sings, doesn't it? And then the look of it, the
2:29:38
look is beautiful. Show.
2:29:39
You rightly mentioned the model work at the beginning,
2:29:42
absolutely spectacular. Paris, you know, we got some
2:29:46
really ropey overseas shoots later on in in the 80s in Dock 2
2:29:49
when you're lucky to see the odd street.
2:29:52
But here you're in Paris, you get the Eiffel Tower, you get
2:29:55
Notre Dame, you get the Louvre, you got the Paris Metro, the Arc
2:29:58
de Triomphe, Sean Zalesi, they are spending their money.
2:30:01
You're going to see it on screen, but it gives it that
2:30:04
absolutely unique atmosphere. And yeah, it's glorious.
2:30:08
And the sets are grey. The the camp's living room, the
2:30:11
Salah da Vinci studio. It's absolutely packed with
2:30:14
details. It's beautiful.
2:30:16
It's glorious. Even the red creation of that
2:30:19
prehistoric Earth at the very end beats time fly hands down.
2:30:23
And it's only on screen designer.
2:30:24
It's the same designer. This looks a million times
2:30:27
better. So yeah, of course it's going
2:30:29
through. You know, you compare, we've all
2:30:32
sort of talked about running around the streets.
2:30:34
Yeah. Compare the scenes in episode
2:30:36
one of this to the scenes in episode 4 of Arc of Infinity.
2:30:40
That's that's how it can all go horribly wrong.
2:30:43
Yeah, because it's very flat there.
2:30:45
So we're on to our last story creature from the pit, Mark.
2:30:49
Yes. Champion or condemn?
2:30:52
Champion, of course. We call it the Pit.
2:30:56
You. Have such a way with words?
2:31:00
I think this is another one a bit like Horns and Nyman that's
2:31:02
had a bit of a reappraisal in recent years.
2:31:05
I've certainly the podcast I listened to some friends of mine
2:31:10
on Gallifrey's Most Wanted, Jeff and Ross.
2:31:13
They. Were.
2:31:16
You're you're familiar with their work.
2:31:18
They were going through that period and I don't think Ross
2:31:24
was quite so much of a fan of that.
2:31:27
I think he he is quite a contrarian unlike some rods we
2:31:32
could mention. It's definitely a contrary.
2:31:36
Yeah. I think when it comes to Tom
2:31:39
Baker, he loves him well enough but you know you can have too
2:31:43
much of a good thing. But they really loved Creature
2:31:46
from the Pit. I think they maybe it's just a
2:31:48
case of expectations were quite low to begin with and they were
2:31:52
pleasantly surprised. I think the first thing when I
2:31:55
check out there, and it's obvious because everyone bangs
2:31:57
on about it, is that jungle set. It's just absolutely incredible
2:32:03
when you think only a few years later you got Diva Loca, which,
2:32:07
I mean, it's a great story. Don't get me wrong, I love that
2:32:10
particular story, but it's not a patch on this, is it?
2:32:14
That's not bloody home based on it with.
2:32:17
A with a painted Gray studio for.
2:32:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it looks great.
2:32:22
It looks like they've really spent some money on it and I
2:32:25
guess it's probably helped by being on film as well.
2:32:27
It just looks really sumptuous. And the wolf weeds.
2:32:30
I think that's a really innovative thing.
2:32:33
You know, we're working with a low budget.
2:32:36
I think that works for me as a believable kind of, you know,
2:32:41
alien creature. I think that's quite a cool
2:32:43
thing. Had a bit of extra threat and
2:32:46
menace. So yeah the the the jungle would
2:32:49
be my first thing to to praise it for the next one I Jim, if
2:32:53
you're listening it will be of course Myra Francis as lady at
2:32:58
raster. I I mean, yeah.
2:33:02
I mean, her and Eileen Wade together was such a.
2:33:04
Great. Double and point.
2:33:06
You don't get the. Rock.
2:33:12
She's just fantastic. She just oozes villainous charm.
2:33:19
She slaps Ramona around the face.
2:33:21
Oh yeah, she doesn't hold back now.
2:33:24
And Eileen Way is just a fantastic.
2:33:27
I just love her. She's just has that demeanor
2:33:33
about her and it's just it's such a really nice payoff, you
2:33:37
know, double act with Myra Frances, I think they work so
2:33:40
well together, so I think. We'll make a very strong.
2:33:43
Duo. Only way's got contempt for
2:33:46
everything that's going on around.
2:33:48
Me like. What has my career come to far?
2:33:50
It suits the character perfectly.
2:33:52
Yeah. Yeah.
2:33:53
Yeah, absolutely goes into that performance.
2:33:57
And another highlight for me again cast wise is Jeffrey
2:34:02
Belden. It's Organon, who's another
2:34:07
actor who was up for consideration for the Doctor
2:34:09
along with Graham Crowden. So yeah, and we've got Maurice
2:34:15
Barry, he was the director of some 60s stories and he just
2:34:21
crops up because he was an actor as well.
2:34:23
Terry Walsh gets a a fairly sort of for him, a plum part.
2:34:27
He's a. Terrible actor, though.
2:34:30
God, well, I mean, you know. He only gets 2.
2:34:33
Lives stuntman first. Yeah, he delivered one.
2:34:36
OK. Yeah, I think it's another great
2:34:39
story. It's David Fisher again and
2:34:43
there's some nice concepts in there.
2:34:45
The whole thing with it being, you know the planet that's lush
2:34:51
and vegetation that's desperate for minerals and ores and what
2:34:54
have you. And you got the the whole thing
2:34:58
with the the creature, let's, let's address the palace in the
2:35:06
room. I mean, it's yeah, it was an
2:35:10
unusual design choice. What are you talking about?
2:35:16
The bit where Tom it's. Just a big green BLOB.
2:35:20
They try to make it look a bit less phallic by adding some
2:35:24
extra little protuberances from it, but there's the damage is
2:35:27
already done by that point I. Think you guys have just got
2:35:30
really dirty minds, you know? Yeah, well, we can't all be as
2:35:34
angelic. As you can.
2:35:36
We no, it's clean living. Although do you know what right
2:35:40
those wolf weeds? Yeah, the older I get, the more
2:35:43
I look down. Time for a bit of manscaping.
2:35:50
Nice. That I'm so sorry.
2:35:57
Please come back again. Please.
2:35:59
I promise I'll be on better behavior.
2:36:02
He won't. We all know you.
2:36:03
Yeah, but that's part of the fun.
2:36:05
Yeah. No, it's I I like the story.
2:36:08
I think it works. It rolls around really nicely.
2:36:12
Yeah. What's not to like?
2:36:13
Give it a shot. Fantastic.
2:36:15
It's going through. Joe, do you want to do the first
2:36:18
of the comments because you introduced this person far
2:36:20
better than I could? Luke Malloy.
2:36:23
Vastly imaginative and enjoyable.
2:36:25
Weird too. Fraser Gregory says, hands down
2:36:29
the best of the season. Douglas Adams is a very David
2:36:32
Fisher esque writer. So when the two of them come
2:36:35
together, it's gold plated, dynamite.
2:36:37
A story where everyone's on the same page, that page being
2:36:40
pantomime and the most glorious fun is the end result.
2:36:44
Lala's first recorded out in his Romana and she's superb.
2:36:47
Utterly commanding and a total girl boss.
2:36:50
In any other story, Jeffrey Belden would steal the show, but
2:36:53
he's up against Myra Francis, so he doesn't stand a chance.
2:36:57
Endlessly quotable, endlessly enjoyable.
2:37:00
Keep it. John Bensalia, Doctor Who does
2:37:03
fairy tale before it became trendy and does it very well.
2:37:06
Ealing Forest doesn't get praised enough, Tom's on top
2:37:09
form and Myra Francis is one of the best ever villainesses.
2:37:13
Dave Rennie says a guilty pleasure with wonderful
2:37:15
characters of Grey Forest and Tom on form.
2:37:18
Do you know I'm waiting for Dan to really hate this?
2:37:21
No one is positivity. I could see him there.
2:37:24
He's going a bit red, actually, it's.
2:37:27
Fine. He's looking very shifty.
2:37:29
Where was we? Jason Thompson, Three and a bit.
2:37:33
Episodes of decent stories telling if you can get past the
2:37:35
unfortunate realization of the eponymous creature and the
2:37:40
rather offensively stereotyped scavengers.
2:37:42
And then one episode of Codswallop about neutron stars
2:37:45
and gravity is scientist Jason. He gets annoyed with Doctor Who
2:37:48
when the science is all wrong. You should hear him talk about
2:37:51
Kill the. Moon.
2:37:53
David Gillespie Pratt says a good example of everyone not
2:37:56
quite being on the same page. There's a good idea on the
2:37:59
script and a lot of wit, but it's all played so broadly.
2:38:02
Myra Francis got the memo, though, and delivers the
2:38:05
strongest performance of the story.
2:38:07
Michael Storm An unfairly maligned story.
2:38:10
We have strong female characters, something David
2:38:12
Fisher excels at writing in Adastra and Corella Organon is a
2:38:16
joy to behold and there is good bait and switch with the
2:38:19
creature. The only real let down is the
2:38:21
decision to play the band. It's as if they were an Andran
2:38:24
production of Oliver Twist. Daniel Neises always surprises
2:38:27
me as being much better than I remember and the film Jungle
2:38:30
looks impressive. Myra Francis is perfect as a as
2:38:34
a Dastra, and whilst he's messing around in other scenes,
2:38:37
Tom plays it totally straight in the scenes with Organon.
2:38:40
Were you going to say Astra Astra, a great villain in Add
2:38:46
Astra but no one gets past the Errato Fella show.
2:38:51
Oh, Andy and the bandits are a bit rubbish.
2:38:54
Can you explain that one to me, Joe?
2:38:55
I don't quite get that. Right now.
2:38:56
Ever. James H is far more enjoyable as
2:39:00
the smugness is turned right down.
2:39:02
Still makes no sense, but it doesn't feel padded and hasn't
2:39:05
attempted a different style of monster, some amazing guest
2:39:08
characters, and just a shame it has a wrongness about the end
2:39:11
physics. Everyone loved this.
2:39:13
Joan Llewellen love creature, great villain.
2:39:15
Lady Adastra were awesome. Laughed at the monster witty
2:39:18
dialogue. Tom was having fun.
2:39:20
Big Orange, Michael said. His fun see Lala Ward settling
2:39:23
into the role of Ramama. Crash done it all.
2:39:25
Finally the only story this season I struggle with.
2:39:29
I should love it, but I find it inexplicably dull in places.
2:39:32
Anthony Carroll says worst story is Creature from the Pit, but we
2:39:35
need an Irrato spinoff. I'm not sure what an Irrato
2:39:38
spinoff would consist of that would be slightly dodgy.
2:39:42
Save the best for last, Lucy McCall, the one that made me
2:39:46
exclaim out loud. Oh my God, it's a giant Willy.
2:39:54
And on that note, let us go to Dan.
2:39:57
Yeah. Be honest now, Dan.
2:40:00
Be honest. Yeah, yeah.
2:40:02
I will be don't. Worry.
2:40:04
Yeah, I I want to to bend this one, but I've got personal
2:40:11
reasons for that, so. Our minds are now.
2:40:18
Racing have. You.
2:40:21
Sorry. Have you had an encounter, Dan?
2:40:23
Yeah, how could you? I was abused by Arato.
2:40:28
Start talking. About this story.
2:40:29
With that line. Oh yeah, I.
2:40:32
Was down a cave and this great giant green penis came towards
2:40:36
me. Sorry Dan, I've stole any
2:40:40
moment. Now, no, no, no, no worries.
2:40:42
Yeah, so so I've been going out with this girl for a while and
2:40:51
we we would take, we would because because it was a long
2:40:54
distance relationship. So we'd be taking it in turns to
2:40:57
kind of one weekend she'd come down to Devon.
2:41:01
The next one I would go up to, to where she lived and she was a
2:41:06
a a lovely, kind hearted person. And I, I I must have been taking
2:41:12
it quite seriously because I had admitted to being a Doctor Who
2:41:15
fan. Whereas, you know, we sometimes
2:41:18
we might hide that under a under a car, you know, But you know,
2:41:23
because we're sometimes we're pretty embarrassed by it, aren't
2:41:26
we? So I had admitted that and bless
2:41:29
her heart, she had bought me the latest VHS release which was
2:41:35
Creature from the Pit and. Which?
2:41:40
Which I I was delighted about. You know it's not one I've got
2:41:43
and and it's it's it's such a thoughtful gift and it's it's
2:41:47
you know it's it's it's brilliant.
2:41:49
What I wasn't prepared for was said Girlfriend then as why
2:41:59
don't we watch it on Sunday afternoon.
2:42:01
We're not doing anything and and I think I think it's fair to say
2:42:06
as much as I enjoy this season, there are not many stories from
2:42:10
this that I would choose to watch with a a person that that
2:42:14
knows nothing about Doctor Who but not.
2:42:17
Fun This was on the section of your collection you'd choose if
2:42:19
someone went, oh, give me one to watch.
2:42:21
No, no. I thought you were going to say
2:42:25
she insisted on calling little Dan Errato from.
2:42:29
I wish. I wish it's.
2:42:31
All played afterwards. Oh no.
2:42:35
I need to know how this ends. Oh, great.
2:42:40
Yeah, I I was like no, no, no, no, it's fine.
2:42:43
I don't. I don't, you know, you you won't
2:42:45
enjoy it. It's very niche, you know, kind
2:42:48
of. Yeah, not wrong there.
2:42:50
Wouldn't take, wouldn't take no for an answer.
2:42:53
So we ended up watching this story.
2:43:01
I don't think we got through it the whole the whole 4 episodes.
2:43:05
I think we probably bailed out after 2.
2:43:07
Did you reach that scene though? Yes.
2:43:10
Oh no. Yes, and the really embarrassing
2:43:14
thing was we were joined by her family.
2:43:19
So. Oh, how did you ever watch
2:43:22
Doctor Who again? Yeah, so, so I've probably got,
2:43:28
it's probably an irrational hatred of this, but but it is a
2:43:31
hatred that I have. It just feels like one of the
2:43:35
most embarrassing moments of my life because there was this girl
2:43:39
that eventually I would marry and.
2:43:43
I was going to ask if you're still together.
2:43:45
Yeah, no, we're still together after 21 years of marriage.
2:43:50
Even after watching that. Yeah.
2:43:53
Yeah, yeah, I've got a new found respect for your wife.
2:43:58
She's. She's fantastic.
2:44:01
But I I don't know how we keep her past that.
2:44:06
So yeah, I, I yes, it's that's my number of one reason, the
2:44:13
embarrassment even now relating that story to you.
2:44:16
I I I can feel myself blushing and.
2:44:20
You know when you asked can I go away from our lovely holiday
2:44:23
away to talk about Doctor over 3 hours?
2:44:26
Did you mention that this was one of the ones you was going to
2:44:28
talk about? No, because Helen, I I can
2:44:33
remember things like this quite vividly.
2:44:35
And, you know, we can go away and and with this and I go, do
2:44:37
you remember when we did this and this and this and my wife
2:44:40
will go, no, Was that with me? Yeah.
2:44:44
Yeah, Yeah. So Helen's probably got
2:44:46
absolutely no reckon. She won't remember a giant green
2:44:49
famine. Do you?
2:44:50
Remember that enormous green cock And one.
2:44:53
Scene. Never.
2:44:54
Forgot. And then Tom Baker noshes down
2:44:56
on it. Yeah.
2:44:59
But yeah. No.
2:45:01
Yeah. So.
2:45:02
So it's it's a very, it's a very triggering story.
2:45:06
Very. Triggering.
2:45:09
There are other. Issues that I have with it I I
2:45:11
think I can. I can see the jungle set is
2:45:15
phenomenal even to the even to the point of like you know
2:45:21
you've got like the the the mist and and you can sort of you can
2:45:25
see the they tried to make them look like they're a bit sweaty
2:45:28
as well, like it's a rain. That's brilliant.
2:45:32
It's great to have a female villain and also female villain
2:45:37
played so well and and then derode Geoffrey Baoden as well.
2:45:42
I mean what that's such a that's a cracking performance.
2:45:44
Another one in in this season we we were really really lucky with
2:45:48
the guest actors and the performances they put in so
2:45:51
there are plus points to it but there are a lot of negative
2:45:54
things and and like I say the overriding one is this
2:45:57
embarrassment but I I hate I I I hate the bandits.
2:46:02
I, I, I you know that crappy mockney accents.
2:46:08
You know that that you know these Rag and bone men basically
2:46:11
aren't they the fact that their leader looks like Roy Wood from
2:46:14
Wizard? And I just.
2:46:15
Think he's going to burst out into like, I wish it was
2:46:17
Christmas every day and he was like, I never ever saw that
2:46:22
That's true. But she just just, yeah.
2:46:30
And then, you know, Rato's magnificent member as well.
2:46:35
I mean, you know what? What?
2:46:36
It's just like a man of life. If if something could ever take
2:46:39
you out of the story. I think it's that particular
2:46:42
appendage. We see it.
2:46:46
I'm sorry. Tell you what, Tell you what,
2:46:49
Dan. It says a lot about you as a
2:46:50
person, that her family still were happy for you to mind their
2:46:55
daughter. Yeah.
2:46:56
Well, I don't know if they have. 21 years.
2:47:01
You better be sure they're happy.
2:47:04
You know how this is like a Christmas pantomime now.
2:47:07
Now you've made that connection for me, it'd be great if that
2:47:10
bandit was like. I wish you Christmas.
2:47:13
That'd be amazing. Or I wish you could be Cloris
2:47:16
Every. Day oh oh.
2:47:19
That that is the best. Prosecution I've heard yet on
2:47:22
this entire run of. String very.
2:47:24
Much I rest my case. Your embarrassment was worth it
2:47:28
for telling that. Story.
2:47:30
Shall I go next, Joe, to give you the, yeah of this split
2:47:33
decision? Because of course I'm putting
2:47:35
this through. Good lad.
2:47:37
I actually agree with Fraser Gregory.
2:47:39
This is my favorite story of the season.
2:47:41
Don't make the habit of it, but. I was going to share a personal
2:47:45
story as well, but it's not a patch on dance.
2:47:49
I go on, Rod. Go on, Rod.
2:47:50
Mine's really sad. It just shows what a sad geek I
2:47:53
was at the age of 13. I mean, dance was sad, but we
2:47:57
all laughed anyway. This is this is.
2:47:59
This takes SAD to a whole new level.
2:48:01
Oh. Go on, let's do.
2:48:02
It all right. Get my cup popcorn ready.
2:48:04
I was slightly obsessed with Doctor Who and and you know
2:48:06
watching it on a Saturday night was obviously in those days.
2:48:09
If you missed it, that was it. So it was a one time experience
2:48:13
and my little heart was always thumping like 10 to the dozen.
2:48:17
I was audio recording it as well.
2:48:18
So I couldn't make any noise because I didn't want to, you
2:48:21
know, ruin the ruin the soundtrack.
2:48:24
I actually stopped breathing in the middle of this episode
2:48:26
because I was so overcome with excitement.
2:48:30
I know it's quite sad, isn't? It did you end up in hospital?
2:48:33
My mother, I kind of started going red and my mother started
2:48:37
prodding me and all I could think of was don't make a noise
2:48:40
because you'll ruin them, you'll ruin the recording.
2:48:44
But I was that excited. I was that into it.
2:48:46
And it's, I mean, it's the blandest scene.
2:48:49
It's when a Draster and Romana come into the pit towards the
2:48:53
end of episode 2. I was just so overtaken.
2:48:55
With I thought you were going to say the recording was ruined by
2:48:58
someone in the family saying, Oh my God, it's a giant penis.
2:49:04
There are so many stories I can imagine getting so excited you
2:49:07
almost pass out, but this is not one.
2:49:12
So like, Dan has a hatred of the story.
2:49:15
I've got an absolute love for this story.
2:49:16
I I think this is the best of the season.
2:49:18
I absolutely adore this story. I think it's brilliant world
2:49:22
building. You've already touched on it
2:49:24
already. I think what a lot of stories
2:49:27
this season do, and this one certainly does, It's got a
2:49:29
unique and distinctive setting. It's populated by interesting
2:49:33
characters and it serves the plot and it serves big, bold,
2:49:37
interesting new ideas that we've not seen before.
2:49:40
And I think this does it. You've talked about the jungle
2:49:43
site, You've talked about the dry ice and Tom sweating,
2:49:46
although it is only Tom that sweats, which is a bit odd.
2:49:49
But like you said, Mark, as well, you've got the wolf weeds,
2:49:51
you know, carnivorous vegetation.
2:49:53
Why not? It's a great extension.
2:49:54
And then you've got the Huntsman.
2:49:56
I mean, they're just these roles that fit this world.
2:49:58
David Fisher has given a lot of thought to this world and this
2:50:02
is a world that's ruled by women.
2:50:03
And we don't get like, God awful Galaxy 4 or that awful Star Trek
2:50:08
episode where, you know, we bang on about.
2:50:12
It's a little bit on the nose, isn't it?
2:50:13
We don't get any of our head. They're just women in charge.
2:50:16
So, you know, Corella thinks that Romana must be the Doctor's
2:50:19
commander. And that's it.
2:50:21
They don't. They don't kind of bang on about
2:50:22
it, which is great. It's.
2:50:24
Not, not, not like. Mission to Magnus.
2:50:26
Not, Oh my God, please. I don't think at the moment it's
2:50:29
subtlety and that, but it's it's, I love that.
2:50:33
And obviously Address is in charge.
2:50:35
She owns the mine, so ergo, she owns all the metal on the
2:50:38
planet. So everyone wants hunger.
2:50:40
Everyone else wants that metal. They want the power, they want
2:50:43
the wealth. And then you get to the bandits.
2:50:45
And yes, the bandits are played like a poor man's fake, and
2:50:48
they're definitely kind of copying.
2:50:50
Rotwell. Torvin is taking Ron Moody from
2:50:54
from Faking from Oliver Twisters.
2:50:55
Nay, he does overdo it a bit, but there's still a
2:50:58
bloodthirsty. That.
2:51:00
Happened OK, quite a bit, my lovely boys.
2:51:04
It is a bit on the nose, isn't it?
2:51:05
But you know, times and places, but they're still bloodthirsty.
2:51:09
They're happy to kill Romana. They kill the guards of the
2:51:13
palace without a moment's thought.
2:51:14
Like great scene where you hear him killing him and he's he says
2:51:17
he's off to have a chat with the guards and then you hear the
2:51:19
guard. Lovely little talker is our Edu.
2:51:26
Yeah. I love the world building.
2:51:28
I think it's really clever and the whole fact that Erato is not
2:51:32
a bad, he's a good, he's a trade ambassador, but he's still got a
2:51:35
secret. So that gives kind of episode 4
2:51:37
new thrust and new direction. The characters in this are
2:51:41
spectacular. You've touched on a Draster, I
2:51:44
mean this is how to play a camp filler.
2:51:46
Nesses now she's totally straight.
2:51:48
She doesn't send it up at all, but she's so over the top and so
2:51:52
camp. She's absolutely delicious.
2:51:54
And you see, again as, as we talked about with Graham Crowden
2:51:57
before, we see her descendants of madness.
2:51:59
She's in really in control. In the first episode, Joe, you
2:52:01
mentioned it, she slaps around around the face.
2:52:04
She's in complete control. By episode 3, she's screaming,
2:52:08
she's pointing the dog against the rock.
2:52:10
She's really losing it. She's blurting out about Irrato,
2:52:14
and it's her that gets the Part 3 cliffhanger.
2:52:16
She's kind of that intrinsic to the story.
2:52:19
We're focusing on her and by that point she's really lost it.
2:52:22
On to write her out though. Yeah, quite quickly at the end
2:52:25
of episode 3. Yeah, yeah.
2:52:27
I know it's a bit disappointing because I wanted her to go right
2:52:30
through to the end, but I like the fact there's a twist then in
2:52:32
four and it goes in a slightly different direction.
2:52:35
I like the. Fact She gets squashed by the
2:52:37
creature. And the wolf weeds, They all
2:52:40
love it. Go out there, Organon.
2:52:42
Yeah, he's fantastic, isn't he? He's again a great, great comic
2:52:46
turn. He's such a charlatan.
2:52:48
When he talks about, you know what, I've done this performance
2:52:50
all over the planet. I see something from beyond the
2:52:54
stars. He's great.
2:52:56
And even at the end and the Huntsman's got the trade
2:52:59
agreement. He's looking over his shoulder
2:53:00
to read and then says, oh hi, just a trade agreement.
2:53:05
He's wonderful. Cruella, your eyes.
2:53:08
But my God, Eileen Way gives her everything she possibly can.
2:53:12
And then my last reason is the Doctor.
2:53:14
I mean, Tommy's on absolute fire.
2:53:16
Here he goes through pretty much the whole gamut of Doctor
2:53:20
emotions. He's childish reading Peter
2:53:22
Rabbit at the beginning. He's obstinate because he
2:53:25
doesn't want to use the emergency transceiver.
2:53:27
He's fiercely intelligent. He works out what the shell is.
2:53:30
He knows that Rato is not telling the whole truth.
2:53:33
He's heroic, the way he leaps into the pit at the end of
2:53:35
episode one. He's incredibly funny.
2:53:38
He rises to all of Douglas Adams humor.
2:53:41
I love the scene in particular where he's hanging from the pit.
2:53:44
So he gets out a book, How to Climb Everest, find out, sits in
2:53:47
Tibetan, throws it away, gets the next book out.
2:53:50
Teach yourself Tibetan. Tibetan.
2:53:52
Yeah, it's lovely, isn't it? He's unafraid.
2:53:55
When he approaches Irrato, he just wants to communicate.
2:53:58
But then also the bit I love about Thomas.
2:54:01
As we've said, none of the stories where he steely turns on
2:54:03
the dime and he gets really angry.
2:54:05
And he gets really angry in the 4th part with the truster who's
2:54:08
gone on about weeds, weeds, forests and weeds.
2:54:10
He's really angry and he wants to take take her and their
2:54:15
population down. So yeah, I think it's great for
2:54:17
the doctor. I just love this story.
2:54:19
I think he's got everything you could possibly want and a huge
2:54:22
green penis. So what could be better?
2:54:26
Joe, over to you. I don't.
2:54:27
Know what I can possibly, I think that hasn't been spoken
2:54:30
about already. I think this is one of the
2:54:33
wittiest scripts of the season. I've written down a couple of
2:54:35
lines. I love the teaspoon and open
2:54:38
mind line. That's great.
2:54:40
When he comes out the tiles and he goes.
2:54:42
Stands to reason. That's a stupid expression.
2:54:44
It's much easier to reason lying down.
2:54:48
And you know, the whole organ on speech about the present.
2:54:51
Apologize for that. You know there's great lies
2:54:55
prepared throughout all of this. You know, camp lies, witty lies,
2:54:58
funny lines, characterful lies. It's a really, really strong
2:55:02
script. You mentioned a lot of stuff
2:55:04
that Tom's doing there. But the thing I love he is how
2:55:08
gentle he is with the creature, and I love the.
2:55:11
That people. Really mock those scenes because
2:55:13
obviously gives them a blowy, but actually around that you've
2:55:17
got the Star Trek ideal of trying to communicate with the
2:55:20
alien that can't communicate with you in any way shape or
2:55:23
form. And there's one line reading
2:55:25
where he goes was like how could I possibly hurt you, you know
2:55:30
and those scenes are great. They those show Tom is best
2:55:32
because he isn't larking around. He's treating it all deadly
2:55:36
seriously and people just don't talk about that enough in season
2:55:40
17 about sort of how much he's putting in.
2:55:44
I also the production value which everyone's spoken about.
2:55:47
I love the mist and like the harsh sunlight in the forest,
2:55:51
the lush foliage. It looks so convincing.
2:55:54
I've put kinky velvet costumes. I'm not sure, but everyone's in
2:55:57
sort of S&M marks, aren't they? But it all looks very rich.
2:56:00
It's like everyone's dressed up out of Jon Pertwee's wardrobe,
2:56:03
isn't it? There's a wonderful model shot
2:56:07
of the TARDIS by the eggshell. There's lots of little little
2:56:11
shots like that as well, which are really impressive.
2:56:13
The warp weeds are brilliant. Physical effect.
2:56:15
I mean, they're probably being pulled along by a string, but
2:56:18
you know, I'm convinced it's our fully realized alien world.
2:56:22
And and I'm there for it in the season that's sort of criticized
2:56:25
for its production value, it's it's really, really strong in
2:56:28
this. And yeah, everybody said it.
2:56:31
Lady Adastra, absolutely hilarious, vicious, irredeemably
2:56:36
evil. If this is the panto, she is our
2:56:38
Ice queen. She's like the ice queen from
2:56:41
the Narnia, you know, adaptation.
2:56:43
She's that character, pure capitalist, you know, utterly.
2:56:48
She's obviously a Tory, you know?
2:56:49
If she was around now, she'd be she's she's just horrid, isn't
2:56:53
she? And just glorious to be around
2:56:55
admira Fraz's as having the best time of her life playing it.
2:56:59
I can't see much wrong with this if I'm honest.
2:57:02
However, if I was forced to watch this with my wife to be
2:57:07
and family, I would. Probably.
2:57:10
Not move it through. But I wasn't.
2:57:12
So I will. Fabulous so far?
2:57:15
Only for the second time in Strictly history.
2:57:18
All six stories are going through to round two.
2:57:20
I. Figured that's where we were
2:57:21
headed, you know. I I had a feeling.
2:57:24
It's 10 hour you. Heard that right.
2:57:26
We're in round two and we're three hours in.
2:57:29
It's all right round. We always.
2:57:30
Been pointless. Round two is incredibly quick.
2:57:34
It's. About two minutes long.
2:57:36
Because we've we've kind of said our opinions.
2:57:37
So I've got the randomizer in front of me.
2:57:40
Joe, start the suspenseful music and we are first going to pick
2:57:45
Nightmare of Edom. And it's up against Sharda.
2:57:50
So Nightmare of Eden and Sharda, Let's start with Mark.
2:57:53
He's pulling her face. So Eden or Sharda, they're all
2:57:56
going to be. Hard.
2:57:58
They're all going to be. Hard, OK, I love Nightmare of
2:58:05
Eden, but I'm going to have to plump for Sharda.
2:58:08
I just think. I just think it's got all those
2:58:13
elements that I enjoy and it's one of the the better Douglas
2:58:19
Adams stories. I think the cast is superb and I
2:58:24
just think it it's hangs together.
2:58:27
Admittedly we've had several attempts at getting it together,
2:58:31
but I think this latest one does it justice.
2:58:34
I will go for Sharda. Yes, it's an easy one for me.
2:58:39
Sharda, please. I'll put that through.
2:58:42
Sharda for me as well. Wow.
2:58:44
I was going to go Nightmare of Eden, but I've been voted
2:58:47
Nightmare of Eden is the first to fall.
2:58:49
That is shocking. So spin again.
2:58:51
We've got Destiny of the Daleks. Oh, easy Versus Creature from
2:58:55
the Pit, Joe. Preacher.
2:58:59
Easy. I'm.
2:58:59
I'm going. Creature.
2:59:02
Done. It's an easy one for me.
2:59:05
Destiny. The darling there's.
2:59:07
No triggers with that one and Mark.
2:59:11
Sorry, Dan. This creature from the pit.
2:59:13
Oh. So destiny is the second to
2:59:16
four. Dan, can I ask you, were they
2:59:17
all giving you side eye while you were watching it?
2:59:22
I'm sorry to keep triggering you.
2:59:24
I was trying to make as little eye contact as possible.
2:59:28
I was. Just like.
2:59:30
Did you defend it, though, Dan? Because I want to.
2:59:32
Know no, because I don't think you.
2:59:34
Can can you? Yeah, we've just all defended
2:59:36
it. Yeah, but but not to rational
2:59:40
people. Rod.
2:59:40
No, not to normal people. Normal.
2:59:43
People, Yeah, we're not normal, so we've got City of Death
2:59:49
Creature from the Pit creature. Wow, you really don't like City
2:59:56
of Death too much. No, I just love the others, I
3:00:00
said. Creature was my favorite, so
3:00:01
I've got to go with creature. I watched City of Death today.
3:00:03
It is sublime City of Death. Yeah, sit here.
3:00:07
Definitely as well, please. I love Creature from the Pit.
3:00:10
It's got to be saved. Oh.
3:00:11
Creature from the Pitfalls Devastated So we are now left
3:00:18
with City of Death, Horns of Nimon and Sharda.
3:00:22
Sharda. And it's Sharda that's come up
3:00:24
and it's against Horns of Nimon. We've got to pick a winner.
3:00:29
I'm going Nimon. Nimon.
3:00:35
Dad got it. Well, I'm going to break the
3:00:42
deadlock and say no, I'm on because I do love.
3:00:45
No, I'm on. I do.
3:00:47
So Shard of four, so we are left with our.
3:00:51
Final. Two, someone's got touch on
3:00:54
this. Someone's got a.
3:00:55
Pity of death. And the horns of Naiman only on
3:01:00
strictly. I'm not budging on this one.
3:01:02
All right, there's. No way I'm choosing.
3:01:04
North of Naiman over sitting there and.
3:01:06
I'm not budging on this one either.
3:01:08
I'm going horns and I'm on, so I'm mad.
3:01:12
So our guests are going to have to fight it out between them.
3:01:15
It's City of Death for me, please.
3:01:21
This was not the choice I wanted to make.
3:01:29
We don't want to be. I'm sorry.
3:01:30
I'm sorry, Rod. It's going to have to be Sea of
3:01:31
Death. See.
3:01:34
Didn't want us to be predictable.
3:01:36
I was hoping. Sometimes you have to be.
3:01:38
Predictable. Yeah.
3:01:40
When? Is something that.
3:01:42
Good. Well, if you think the DWM
3:01:44
polls, we were going between the first rated Tom Baker and the
3:01:47
40th rated Tom. Baker.
3:01:51
My second place is not a bad. It's really not a bad place, is
3:01:55
there for good old Horns of Naimon.
3:01:56
How? Did that season rank?
3:01:57
Then see your death, Horns of Naimon.
3:02:01
It rated. Hang on, I can tell you exactly
3:02:04
it Rated. City, Destiny, Nightmare of
3:02:07
Eden, Creature from the Pit, and Naimon.
3:02:09
Shard wasn't included. Oh no, I mean in our episode.
3:02:12
Oh, in our episode. About DWA, yeah, don't worry
3:02:14
about that. So 6th was Nightmare, fifth was
3:02:18
Destiny, 4th was Creature, third was Sharda, second Nime on 1st
3:02:22
city. Yeah.
3:02:25
Can't argue with that, really. So we've reached a decision and
3:02:31
we have a winner for Season 17, which joins State of Decay,
3:02:35
which will go probably next year when we have all our final seven
3:02:39
Tom Baker stories. But for the time being, we just
3:02:42
need to thank our guests for helping us come to this possibly
3:02:45
unexpected conclusion. Making me laugh that much.
3:02:50
Thank you SO. Much.
3:02:52
Gentlemen, would you like to promote anything or point people
3:02:55
towards your social media mark? Yes, well, I am slowly.
3:03:01
Very slowly, with my dear friend Ian Martin and some more amazing
3:03:05
guests working my way through all of Doctor Who in broadcast
3:03:08
order. The podcast is called All of
3:03:10
Time and Space and we are midway through recording season six, so
3:03:18
we've got a recording coming up at the end of this week for the
3:03:21
Crotons. So we will soon be in a position
3:03:26
where we can watch every story moving without recons and things
3:03:31
and. Who's on the Crotons?
3:03:35
That's a closely guarded secret. It's Dan, isn't it?
3:03:42
He has been invited on, but yeah, it won't be for a little
3:03:45
while, yeah. We're all on the way in this
3:03:48
land, don't worry. Yeah, but.
3:03:52
I think you were still doing William Hartnell when when you
3:03:54
invited. I think I probably was.
3:03:56
And he said it'd probably be John.
3:03:57
Burtway Yeah. Wasn't.
3:03:59
That sort of 1993 you had that conversation?
3:04:05
Excuse me, Madam, what year it is?
3:04:09
Damn. Yeah, it's not much for me to
3:04:15
promote because I I'm one of the few Doctor Who fans that doesn't
3:04:18
have their own. Podcast.
3:04:20
I'm on Twitter. You can you people can find me
3:04:23
on there. I'm Dev and Dan 03.
3:04:26
You should have your own podcast.
3:04:28
You're bloody hilarious you are. Although I would like to offer
3:04:33
an open invitation up to come back and do some more of it.
3:04:37
Obviously you've done Strictly, but let's do some commentaries
3:04:39
together. Oh, yes, please.
3:04:40
Yeah, that'd be lovely. Fabulous stories to tell, yeah.
3:04:45
That'd be grand. Fantastic.
3:04:46
Well, thank you both for being inferior Craven beings this
3:04:49
evening and for helping us make our decision next episode.
3:04:54
Joe, we are hitting your favorite era of all the Steven
3:04:57
Moffett. Era and even.
3:04:59
Better Matt Smith. We are heading.
3:05:03
Into you've got to take the rough with the smooth guys we
3:05:06
are. Heading into Series 7, AI.
3:05:09
Love that season? Oh, so contrary, isn't he?
3:05:13
Can you see what I have to put? Up.
3:05:14
I thought we were doing Series 9.
3:05:16
No, that's that's a couple. Of Podcasts away.
3:05:19
Series 7A next time. So thank you for listening to
3:05:23
everybody. Thank you to our magnificent
3:05:25
guests and from us all we need to say is.
3:05:29
Listening good night, everybody. Good night.
3:05:51
The. The.