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Coffee Smarter: Extraction · Coffee People Podcast

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Thanks for listening everyone. Hey, good morning everyone.
1:15
Welcome to season 4 episode. 21 of the roast West Coast coffee
1:20
podcast. Not only is it the 21st episode
1:23
but it is the very last episode of the Listen.
1:27
And that went by really fast. I'm still Ryan Walt and this is
1:32
the show where I bring you the stories of coffee professionals,
1:35
entrepreneurship and coffee education.
1:39
Jared Hales of Hosea coffee Source, a green coffee, broker
1:43
in Anaheim, California is back as a coffee.
1:46
Smarter expert to talk to us about extraction.
1:50
If you haven't heard the interview we did covering his
1:52
coffee Journey earlier this season.
1:54
I'll link to it in the show notes and on roast West.
1:57
Dot-com Jared also teaches coffee at Isaiah and I feel
2:01
lucky that he's willing to share some of his coffee expertise
2:04
with us on the show. As I mentioned today, we're
2:07
talking about extraction, which by definition, is the pulling of
2:10
one thing from another thing. It's also a somewhat crappy
2:14
movie on Netflix for our purposes were talking about how
2:18
flavor is pulled from The Coffee Bean during the Brewing process.
2:22
And, of course, we take a few tangents, along the way, as I
2:26
mentioned at the top, This is the very last show of season 4
2:30
in between previous Seasons, I've taken long breaks to
2:33
regroup and put some energy into other projects and occasionally
2:37
even into my real job. I don't know if you could hear
2:40
it, but I did use finger quotes when I said that.
2:44
But not this time. Frankly, I'm too jazzed up and
2:47
inspired by all the entrepreneurs and coffee
2:49
professionals that have been on the show this season and it
2:53
feels like the last few months have just flown by.
2:55
I don't want to lose this. Mmm, season.
2:58
Five starts about an hour from now when you finished listening
3:02
to this episode more on that a little bit later.
3:05
Today, I'm drinking a hot cup of coffee black.
3:08
It is a Sumatra from paper tiger Coffee, Roasters in Vancouver,
3:12
Washington. I brewed it in a French press at
3:15
a 15 to 1 ratio of water to coffee beans.
3:18
That is my go-to Brewing method for any new to me coffee.
3:22
And after I finish this cup, I'll make another one at the
3:25
same ratio, but as a pour-over, With a Hario V60 Brewer.
3:30
If I really prefer one style over the other, I'll stick with
3:33
it but play with other variables just for fun.
3:37
The only thing I don't like about this podcast medium is
3:40
that, I'm not able to ask you what you're drinking in the
3:43
moment because you're not in this tiny closet podcast studio
3:46
with me. So if you're out there, drinking
3:48
a cup of coffee, snap a photo or take a video and take me at
3:52
roast West Coast on Instagram. Maybe do it while you're
3:55
enjoying this coffee smarter conversation, all about
3:58
extraction with Jared, Hales of Hosea, coffee Source, on the
4:02
roast West Coast coffee podcast. Jared, welcome back to the roast
4:17
West Coast coffee podcast, where we try to help people get coffee
4:21
smarter. At least to me, I know, I
4:22
listened to the show many, many times during the editing
4:26
process. Thank you.
4:28
Ryan last week, we were talking about green coffee, bean green,
4:32
coffee storage. And just kind of what somebody
4:35
who is starting out. Buying green coffee would be.
4:38
If anyone hasn't listened to that, they should go back and
4:40
listen to it because it was super helpful.
4:41
If you've ever thought about roasting your own coffee.
4:44
Week, I want to kind of jump over to the other side of
4:47
coffee, which is brewing and extraction and stages of
4:51
extraction. And I was hoping we could start
4:54
by defining what extraction is because that's a term that gets
4:58
thrown around with coffee a lot. But what does that actually
5:02
mean? If I'm brewing coffee and you
5:04
say what am I extracting? A my extracting a physical
5:07
thing. Am I extracting flavor?
5:09
Is that what does that mean? So extraction at the very base
5:16
is essentially dissolving coffee or in the coffee context, right?
5:22
Dissolving coffee solubles into water.
5:27
That's like, I think it's simply as I can put it and solubles as
5:33
someone who's didn't take science after sophomore year of
5:36
high school is just like you're literally dissolving like a
5:39
physical piece of the coffee. Gene into the water, right?
5:43
Like molecules that dissolve into water essentially, right?
5:47
So like salt, if you were to dissolve salt into water and
5:51
then that water would evaporate the salt would be there that is
5:54
correct. Although not sure, I guess
5:57
that's kind of what instant coffee is, right?
6:00
Yeah, I guess so. Dehydrated brewed coffee.
6:04
Okay. So then why do we use the term
6:06
extracted? A lot with flavors?
6:08
Is that what we're saying? That the dissolved coffee is the
6:11
flavor. That we find in our when we were
6:13
essentially drinking coffee flavored water, right?
6:15
That's correct. So, like, with espresso side and
6:20
a few outliers, most coffee is about 98.5 percent water and
6:27
1.5% coffee if you would actually look at the amount of
6:32
coffee 98. So, that's one point five
6:35
percent coffee. So that's that term.
6:37
I see TDS, right? That is correct.
6:40
Yeah, that's totally Total dissolved solids which is
6:43
essentially another word for solubles.
6:46
Yep. You got it clicks.
6:48
Otherwise that TDS number is what's determining the strength
6:54
of the brewed coffee, right? So 1.5 actually a little bit
6:58
strong espressos you get more to like seven percent, ten percent.
7:03
Like the last coffee that I tested, that tasted really nice.
7:07
Was one point, three nine percent coffee.
7:11
When you say strength though you don't mean like strength
7:14
caffeine wise you mean strength like because that's like a term,
7:17
right? Like you mean strength
7:18
flavor-wise. Neither strength isn't your
7:23
strength is actually an interesting kind of topic and
7:26
word in in our industry. Because you know, a lot of
7:30
people that are not very coffee educated will come to me and
7:36
they'll say like, oh you work in coffee, I would love strong
7:39
coffee and I have to kind of okay.
7:43
What do you mean, you know, do you like high extraction
7:46
percentages? You know but obviously, Most
7:50
people cannot comment on that and so strength.
7:53
Sometimes gets I think misinterpreted as like boldness,
8:00
you know, which is not another kind of vague word, but I think
8:03
that's more associated with the roast.
8:05
Like, people are tasting bitter compounds in the roast.
8:10
So you can actually have really weak coffee with very dark
8:15
roast, and that might even be with someone is describing when
8:19
they Tell me. I love strong coffee.
8:23
I don't know if you've ever had like a like, a brutal Hotel
8:27
coffee. That's kind of what it is.
8:29
It's like super watery. But flavor is really intense,
8:33
mostly because of the roast, but strength is really in the
8:38
professional sense related to TDs in the coffee, which I don't
8:45
know how far down that rabbit hole you want to go here, but
8:49
that Kind of is and is not related to flavor.
8:53
So, from the TDS, there's, there's some fun algebra to
8:59
calculate an extraction percentage, which is what a lot
9:04
of people use to talk about coffee.
9:06
The sca has always had a window, a Target window of 18 to 22
9:12
percent extraction as a percentage which is coming from
9:16
this math. But, you know, as coffee has
9:19
gone a lot better in the last 10 years.
9:21
Even really I've tasted some great coffees that are Beyond
9:26
22% extraction. And, you know, I think it's in
9:31
my opinion. It seems pretty simple.
9:33
If you have a lot of great things in a coffee, you want
9:37
more of those things, right? Where if you have a less than
9:41
great coffee, maybe you don't want to taste everything.
9:44
Coffee does have I want to say 850 over 800 aromatic and flavor
9:53
compounds inside of coffee and not to you know, take shots at
9:57
wine here but I think wine is like 250.
10:01
So there's there's a lot of room for complexity in the coffee and
10:05
then it's about extracting, what tastes good.
10:08
So I believe the number is about 28% of the actual being Is
10:14
soluble 28 percent, but as I was saying, we're more shooting in
10:19
the range of like 2022. Maybe twenty four percent on a
10:23
really nice coffee. You know, we're not actually
10:26
extracting everything that is soluble in that seed.
10:31
Would that be a goal? Or would that be too much?
10:34
No, that would be, that would be too much because once we start
10:37
extracting those other elements, then we're getting like
10:40
bitterness and unpleasant flavors.
10:43
So although it is soluble, it's Something that we enjoy
10:46
drinking. So let's talk about that kind of
10:49
the stages of that extraction. And because it sounds like
10:52
you're working through different flavors and trying to cut it off
10:56
at a certain point. That's essentially what we're
10:57
doing with with the roast it with green coffee.
11:00
But then again with the Brewing process, you're exactly right.
11:04
That's very well put. Well I did read some more hands
11:08
so I was prepared with that one. So you mentioned the complexity
11:13
and all these different flavors but let's kind of talk about
11:15
that. What are those stages of
11:17
extraction that people are going through as they're Brewing their
11:20
coffee? What is the you know, let's say
11:24
you under brood and then middle Brew middle brood.
11:27
I don't know. I'm talking about, but you get
11:29
the point like, yeah. What are, you know, like say
11:31
that the multiple steps that people would go through
11:34
flavor-wise or I'm going to let you you're the expert.
11:37
I'm just over here listening. So as your as I understand what
11:41
you're saying here, it's a good point as you're Brewing.
11:45
You know, the first time you hit that coffee with water.
11:47
Let's just assume that we're doing what we call a
11:50
percolation, you know, like moving water through coffee,
11:55
which is different from Full immersion, you know, coffee
11:58
sitting with the water foretold Brewing like a French press or
12:02
even Aeropress. So let's just assume that we're
12:04
doing like a pour-over or a coffee pot maker.
12:07
You know, the first part of that Brew when the water first starts
12:12
to pass through the coffee grounds.
12:14
And starts to extract it, right? The first thing that you're
12:17
going to get is a lot of the acids in the coffee.
12:21
That's what that's what you're going to pull out first.
12:24
And I don't know if you've ever noticed this when you're brewing
12:26
your coffee but the first few drops that are coming out.
12:30
They are dick right there. Really syrupy looking and this
12:35
is where you get the highest concentration of solids in this
12:40
early, part of the roof of the Brew.
12:43
Later in the Brew. You actually start to extract
12:46
sugars that are in the coffee or like, sweetness.
12:49
Like perceive sweetness as well. And then, if you look at the at
12:53
the coffee dripping out, it might look more like what you're
12:56
going to actually drink as far as how heavy or like the
13:00
viscosity of it. You know, towards the end of The
13:03
Brew, you start to pull out bitterness in the coffee, which
13:08
bitterness kind of gets a bad rap.
13:10
I feel like in the industry mostly because Of roasting like
13:14
you know, if you roast too dark, you start to get bitter flavors
13:17
but really bitterness is a is in all coffee and is it in
13:22
moderation. A pleasant aspect or, you know,
13:26
there's a few people that don't like chocolate, but a lot of
13:29
people do and chocolate has a lot of bitterness to it,
13:31
especially dark chocolate, right?
13:34
So you start to extract, the bitter flavors in the coffee
13:37
towards the end. And if you look at what's
13:40
tripping out towards the end of the The of the Brew, you'll see
13:44
it looks a bit thinner than maybe, what you will end up
13:48
drinking and definitely a lot thinner than what was Dripping
13:51
in the beginning of the brew. And so, what this means is,
13:54
you're getting less concentrated liquid, right?
13:58
It's more water. I guess in every drop, then the
14:03
earlier drops. And so, you start to dilute your
14:07
coffee here at this point again, doesn't have to be a bad thing.
14:11
Right, because you're you're compensating somewhat for the
14:14
early, the Early part of the Brew where it was thicker and
14:17
getting to somewhere where it's all one drinkable.
14:21
Exactly. Exactly.
14:23
And that's why you really don't want to, you know, go too long
14:26
or put too much water either, you know, because then you're
14:30
going to miss that kind of golden window of perfectly
14:34
balanced acid. Sweet and bitter.
14:38
Right now there's there is a technique Yeah, I don't know if
14:43
you've ever heard of like, a ristretto espresso, but
14:46
essentially ending the espresso Brew before you get to that
14:51
bitterness and they Lucien. So it's a, it's a smaller, more
14:55
concentrated shot, but it's lacking, you know, that added
14:59
step or they added stage of Brewing, the be bitterness and,
15:04
and the dilution so you can get some interesting results.
15:07
Just even doing pour over with that kind of theory, you know, I
15:11
don't Really a really great test.
15:13
If you have access to an espresso machine, is to, you
15:17
know, get a porta filter that splits the shop and start your
15:21
shot and pull one of those shot glasses.
15:25
When you're about right there, you know, 2/3, into the Brew,
15:30
just pull it and then finish the Brew with the other shot glass.
15:34
And in try them both and they will be like totally different
15:37
coffees. Almost It's amazing to me that
15:41
we and I've said this, I think I think I've said this before on
15:45
the show, but it's a unique product in which you are giving
15:49
this this physical thing to a consumer and then asking them to
15:55
finish the science experiment. You know the farmers is Step
15:59
stage 1, their farming it they're giving it to you and
16:01
your your forwarding it to a roaster.
16:03
The Roaster is performing a science experiment and then
16:05
they're saying we've taken this as far as we can.
16:08
Take this home and perform this seventh grade science experiment
16:13
and don't screw it up, you know. And that's kind of what I think
16:16
about when I'm making my coffee. And you know, it doesn't taste
16:20
very good. I generally myself because it's
16:22
probably my fault in most cases not all cases you know, not
16:26
going to name names. But you said something earlier
16:29
about how we're assuming for this process of extracting that
16:34
we were working with a poor through system, a percolating
16:37
system, where the Water is traveling through, how does it
16:40
change for an immersion system like a French press or like a
16:46
can think of the, the type of Brewer.
16:49
But like, it looks like a pour-over but essentially, the
16:51
water sits in there. With the coffee with the coffee
16:55
and it's a 44 minutes and then drops through, right?
16:58
So so those fully emerging bruise, you know, they actually
17:03
extract slower because as the water starts to get saturated
17:10
with coffee, it's less effective at extracting at polling more, I
17:17
guess molecules, you know, to bond with.
17:20
So, It is slower. It's also a lot more linear.
17:25
For example, if you were to like graph extraction rate of full
17:32
immersion, it would be kind of like a straight line on the
17:35
graph where if you graph like a pour-over or a percolation Brew
17:40
method. It'll look kind of like a roast
17:42
curve where it'll be a lot faster in the beginning and then
17:45
we'll kind of slow down and taper off towards the end.
17:48
So they look different. They brew different And it
17:52
really comes down to, like, changing variables.
17:54
You know, a lot of times people change water temp or grind or
17:59
dos, you know, the recipe actually has to change for these
18:03
through methods. I noticed that well for me, the
18:07
most common mistake I make is over Brewing, an immersion
18:10
Brewer because I forget because I'm doing one making breakfast
18:13
or I'm, you know, doing emails or whatever I'm doing.
18:17
So I am very familiar with those over immersed over brewed
18:20
writers. I was looking through, kind of
18:23
some just notes on extraction and there was this term that
18:26
came up golden cup standard. And I'm wondering if you could
18:29
describe what that is, we kind of already talked about it
18:33
actually that is that that range of extraction percentage.
18:38
So that the sca has established that anything between 18 and 22
18:44
percent extraction is Gold Cup standard.
18:48
There's also some rules on straight, I don't have Number in
18:52
front of me, but I think they want you basically 1.3% TDS.
18:59
These are good to have standards, right?
19:01
And starting points. But like I was just saying, I've
19:05
had really fantastic coffees well over 22% extraction that
19:11
tastes great. So while they're good for
19:15
starting point. So definitely not, you know,
19:19
don't don't die by them. What I'm Hearing you say, is who
19:23
made the SE a in charge. No, I do appreciate the NCAA,
19:28
but, but definitely, you gotta take it as more of a guideline.
19:32
You know, these are rules. These are guidelines.
19:36
If I'm starting to get interested in this side of
19:39
coffee, where I want to know what my extraction rates are,
19:43
how do I go about measuring that, you know, you talking
19:46
about, like, we can actually physically see some changes in
19:48
the brew as it's going through. But how would I actually Know,
19:52
if my extraction rate or my TDs is at the right amount.
19:57
I mean, without equipment, the first step is to taste, right?
20:01
So over extracted coffee has a pretty distinct taste as you
20:06
kind of mentioned. It's it's bitter, it's strong,
20:10
right? It gets to the point where it's
20:13
not as pleasurable to drink, right?
20:17
It may even have, for example, the cup that I brewed this
20:20
morning was a little bit over extracted, I think based on the
20:22
taste and based on the caffeine effect that I'm feeling from it.
20:27
You know, feeling a little tingly.
20:30
Oh so if you over extract there actually is more a direct
20:33
relation to the amount of caffeine?
20:34
Yeah. The more the more you extract
20:36
the coffee, the more caffeine you will extract.
20:39
So does that mean that some of these brands that market
20:42
themselves as having the most caffeine ever are essentially
20:46
just over over extracted coffees or over roasted or how does that
20:51
work? No, there are also there are
20:54
also variations in caffeine based on Plant the coffee, plant
20:58
itself. And so there are varieties of
21:02
coffee that have more or less caffeine in them.
21:06
Caffeine is actually the plants insecticide, you know, which is
21:10
kind of crazy. We're all just drinking seed
21:14
juice getting high on insecticide but but yeah, it
21:17
comes down to I think when they're advertising, that it's
21:20
more about the varieties, the coffee itself.
21:23
And so I'm sure a lot of people listening to have heard of a
21:27
Arabica and Robusta, right? Row.
21:29
Boost the has sometimes two to four times the amount of
21:34
caffeine as erotica but even in Arabica there's a lot of
21:38
variations some some varieties might have half of another as
21:43
far as caffeine content as we're talking and as you're mentioning
21:46
those different coffees in the family tree and obviously the
21:50
different levels of caffeine that they might have that also
21:52
means that those coffees would probably each kind of family
21:56
will. Have its own, kind of level of
21:59
anticipated extraction. You know, that would be ideal
22:02
for that coffee, right? Like a pocket, maar as you say,
22:04
might be best at this extraction, level versus a
22:07
Keturah, which might be better at this extraction level or am I
22:10
just putting too much into it there?
22:12
I've never put that much into, but I would not say that might
22:18
be the case. I think that there's enough
22:20
other variables, usually that you're dealing with, where that
22:24
would be hard to kind of create a rule because, you know, for
22:29
example, pack them or they have different density, you know, is
22:32
that now a variety thing or a density thing, right?
22:35
So I think you can kind of track Trends but then you're going to
22:40
get into a lot of other Variables coffee that coffee, it
22:45
would be hard to say. Like I blew all my pakmar's this
22:48
way, you know, just like a roaster it would be hard to say
22:51
I roast all my pack of Mars, one way, you know, because there are
22:57
different aspects, different elevations, different
23:00
processing, different Origins and you know obviously different
23:04
flavors. I do want to come back and say
23:07
though before we get too far from it under extracted finding
23:11
under extracted. In your cup is also pretty
23:15
obvious. The coffee will taste like water
23:17
like like coffee water, which is obviously not a pleasant
23:21
experience. Either are you more likely to
23:25
have that with a, with an immersion Brewing method?
23:28
Because it takes longer for it to extract or because we were
23:33
talking earlier about the percolation, the first drops are
23:36
going to be thicker more viscous.
23:38
Wouldn't that have more flavor as well?
23:40
Then your question. I think that personally I think
23:46
full immersion is is actually harder to mosab.
23:49
I think it's a little bit easier to get normal extractions from
23:54
the full immersion. I've never met anyone that
23:57
brewed their full immersion Too Short.
23:59
You know what I mean? It's kind of hard to do.
24:02
It's what's much more common is like what you're saying.
24:04
You walk away from it and all sorts 15 minutes in there?
24:08
Yeah, yeah and I don't do that seven out of seven days but
24:12
there Definitely. Yeah, weeks.
24:15
Where I'll go a couple days in a row where I've just got so much
24:17
going on that. I forget I just think it's an
24:19
easy way to do it. I always talk about how I love
24:22
the routine of coffee and the ritual of doing it in the
24:24
morning and that's supposed to be time for me, but I'd be lying
24:27
if I said that. That was true every day and it's
24:30
very common for me to be distracted by something else and
24:34
making an espresso or making something a little more complex
24:38
that's harder for me to do than or even a pour-over as opposed
24:42
to in immersion forces, me into that mindset.
24:46
And so for anyone listening when you're making your coffees in
24:49
the morning, you know, thinking about that.
24:50
Like what are you? What do you want out of this
24:52
experience? Besides just a cup of coffee.
24:54
If anything. Right.
24:56
I think it is important. Is there anything that we should
24:59
we should add about extraction today?
25:01
Before we kind of close up shop? You know, some other interesting
25:05
thoughts. I would say going back to your
25:08
question with how do we measure extraction You know, I did taste
25:14
examples mostly because I think most of us don't need or want to
25:19
purchase equipment to measure extraction, but you can measure
25:23
it with, fairly inexpensive TDS meter.
25:26
It's not the most accurate, but you can get close the best in
25:31
what we use. Professionally, a lot of times
25:34
is a refractometer, you know, that measures really accurately.
25:38
The TDS essentially, the same number, just more accuracy.
25:42
Some other good Two points here, in regards to extraction.
25:46
There's a lot of other variables that can increase or decrease
25:50
extraction rate, for example, water temperature, the hotter
25:55
your water, the faster you will extract your coffee, I think
25:59
cold brew. You know that's room temp or
26:01
cold water for hours rather than using hot water grind size.
26:07
You know, as you grind finer, you will increase surface area
26:10
per gram, and you will Yeah, coffee faster.
26:14
We also talked about a roasting roasting as you as you roast
26:18
coffee darker, you actually break down the coffee and make
26:23
it more soluble, the roast with darker roasts extract faster.
26:28
So usually if I'm brewing with a darker roast, I might change
26:32
some other variables like water temperature or grind size.
26:36
Usually I start with grind size. And the clarifying that if
26:40
you're roasting it darker, aren't you also breaking down
26:43
some of those flavors and you may have less flavors to extract
26:47
or am I misunderstanding that? I don't know how much.
26:51
So I also want to say that I think light medium, dark is a
26:55
terrible vocabulary process because every roaster will have
26:59
different definitions and every person will have different
27:02
expectations of what that means. There's some of us think about
27:05
it as being a more as more of a flavor issue and Some of us
27:09
think about it as a science issue and so on.
27:12
So yeah, I think it's that's a complicated one because you're
27:16
actually, you are breaking things down but you're creating
27:19
new molecules I guess, you know, like you're not there not just
27:24
disappearing except for maybe the volatiles that like the
27:27
evaporate, but I don't know if they're all evaporating by the
27:31
time you can get out of roaster and drink it.
27:35
But you're just you're breaking down for example, like acids or
27:39
four sugars and turning them into something else, got it.
27:43
I just wanted to tell the audience that I was hoping that
27:45
you would actually tell them, but you're kind enough to spend
27:48
some time with me talking about this this morning, but you also
27:50
have classes at who say that you teach could you kind of run
27:54
through just like what the classes are and what people
27:57
might expect from the experience you know the brewing class I
28:00
mentioned on the first conversation we ever had, I've
28:03
been doing these classes. A long time, the brewing class
28:07
is actually one of the newest classes that I started doing
28:11
mostly by popular demand honestly and it's very base.
28:15
We actually start with a lot of conversation like we're having
28:18
today about extraction and what is it, you know, because it's it
28:22
is important to know what you're actually doing.
28:26
If you want to improve your coffee brewing, you know.
28:29
So we start with extraction, we talk a little bit more about
28:32
water. We talked about grind, In a lot
28:35
of detail we talked about Brew times even filter types, some I
28:42
guess through defects and I don't know if that's a term I'm
28:44
kind of making it up here, but you know, like channeling.
28:48
And then we spend some time Brewing.
28:51
What I like to do is bruised, same coffee, four or five
28:55
different ways with different pieces of equipment, you know,
28:58
using different methods different times and that way, we
29:02
really kind of taste the range that coffee Have Justin how you
29:06
prepare it and it's great to get that feedback live with, you
29:09
know, whoever's participate in the class.
29:12
Some people like this Brew method, some people like this
29:15
grew method at the end of the day, I'd say most people like
29:19
the strong coffee which is kind of surprising.
29:22
I at home, I brew, I generally am lazy and I do a french press
29:28
or some sort of immersion, but I also do pour overs and I also a
29:32
Chemex and I do all, you know, Do these different things.
29:36
But usually only, like, when I first and buying a bag of coffee
29:39
those first couple I mix up and then when I find the one that I
29:42
think works for that coffee, I stick with it through the rest
29:44
of the bag for the Mirage, right.
29:47
I think that's cool. There's also some variation in
29:50
like, el Tri like a range of water to grind ratio.
29:54
That's kind of where, you know, my intelligence ends as far as
29:57
how to change up the flavor but but it does make a difference
30:00
sometimes. If I'm doing safe, a 15 to 1
30:03
ratio versus a 16 or Seventeen. Even I think that's a big
30:07
takeaway that people can get out at class is like almost
30:11
diagnosing, you know, their home coffee and being able to make
30:16
those changes like, oh well, I understand extraction enough to
30:20
know, I should change my ratio change my grind, change my water
30:24
Etc. So it's really about improving
30:26
the at-home coffee experience, which I love.
30:29
And I also think that's important because it's something
30:31
I didn't learn until I think, even after I started Doing this
30:35
show, I joke that I might go. My job on the show is to be kind
30:38
of the dummy, you know, to ask the questions but there's a lot
30:41
of Truth in that I am learning along with the audience a lot of
30:44
the time sometimes repeating things but I need that
30:47
repetition to make it sticks. It's not natural.
30:51
But I think one of the best things that I learned was that,
30:54
if I take a chance on a bag of coffee, from an unknown roaster
30:57
to me or, you know, something new, and I don't like that first
31:01
cup that I made, that doesn't mean that I won't like the rest
31:04
of that bag. Is waste my 16 or 20 dollars or
31:07
whatever it was. I can make changes to try to get
31:10
a cup that I actually enjoy, and that has become part of the
31:13
enjoyment of the process. Excellent.
31:17
Well, it's like you said, I mean, we're ever The Roaster is
31:19
trusting the home consumer to finish the science experiment.
31:24
It's hard. Without some, you know, kind of
31:27
basic knowledge. Yeah, well I will link to those
31:31
classes and everything. And as we're I love this as
31:33
we're talking, I just An incredible idea which we're
31:36
going to have to work on off off air.
31:38
But coffee summer camp, where we have a different one of those
31:42
classes every day. And then say a coffee, I was
31:45
going to call it a pub crawl. But I don't know what you'd call
31:47
it, like coffee coffee, the coffee.
31:49
I think that's going to be in the future.
31:51
And if we could do it in the woods where we could also have a
31:53
campfire and whiskey and I am all Jared.
31:57
Thank you for coming back to the show.
31:59
Looking forward to talking again and just getting your expertise
32:03
on things. I really Here, I am pleasure to
32:06
be here to recap at its core extraction is dissolving coffee
32:17
solubles actual pieces of the Coffee Bean into water, so that
32:22
we can taste the flavor of the coffee when we're drinking it.
32:25
Brewed coffee is mostly water, give or take about ninety eight
32:28
and a half percent. That remaining percentage is the
32:31
total dissolved solids or TDS. So, Brian of coffee cycle and I
32:36
did a show on refractometer is earlier this year and you should
32:39
check that out. If you're interested in how that
32:41
measurement works, one thing that came up today and I
32:45
expressed my frustrations about is the language of coffee terms,
32:49
like, strong or bold, or even light medium and dark mean
32:53
different things to different people.
32:55
It is why being able to take measurements is important for
32:58
Roasters and to a lesser extent, those of us brewing coffee, the
33:02
numbers don't generally lie, but words Often do finally,
33:07
according to Jared over extracting a coffee is more
33:10
common than under Brewing. There are just so many more ways
33:13
to over extract. You can grind the coffee to
33:16
fine. You can leave it in the
33:17
immersion Brewer too long, or you could just use too much
33:20
water this week. Three days in a row.
33:23
I over brood or over extracted. My regular cup of zoom bar,
33:26
coffee and tea is hummingbird. Blend when I forgot to pay
33:29
attention to my timer while making breakfast, I'm blaming
33:33
mornings thankfully, I still love that coffee, even if I over
33:36
extracted by a little bit. But the more I extract, the more
33:41
bitter flavors of the coffee are enhanced or Juiced up to use a
33:44
steroids in baseball term. The rest of the flavors, I love
33:47
the chocolate. In the balance, sweetness, get
33:49
overwhelmed, sometimes. They don't even seem to be there
33:53
and if I go way over the edge, leave it in the French press for
33:56
two, three, four, five, extra minutes.
33:59
The coffee takes on an astringent kind of burnt taste.
34:02
That's when I go back grind a new set of beans and just start
34:04
over. Those flavors are just not what
34:07
I want out of a cup of coffee and I think that's an important
34:10
question to ask yourself. What do you want out of your cup
34:13
of coffee? What flavors do you want?
34:16
What experience do you want? What level of commitment do you
34:19
want in terms of time and effort and money?
34:22
For me, I like the routine of making a simple cup of coffee at
34:25
home. I've a few different Brewing
34:27
methods, but my grinder is pretty simple and I don't try to
34:30
pull espressos or make coffee drinks.
34:32
At least not, unless they have whiskey in them.
34:34
And I don't measure the TDS in my coffee.
34:37
I work mostly by taste and I'm willing to have a few less than
34:40
perfect cups to find the method that works best for the coffee.
34:43
And for my palate, when I want something a little more
34:46
extravagant off to the coffee roaster or the coffee shop, I go
34:51
whatever it is that you're doing, know that there are no
34:53
rules. The best coffee is a coffee, you
34:56
enjoy. I'm pretty grateful Jared has
34:58
been spending some time with us on the show and he's already
35:01
promised that he'll come back in season 5.
35:04
To learn more about the coffee education classes, that Jared
35:07
teaches get online. Go to Hosea, coffee.com, he
35:11
offers classes on roasting brewing and general coffee
35:14
education. I also anticipate that series
35:17
simran Khalsa of lofty coffee and Chris O'Brien of coffee
35:21
cycle, will be back next season and I'm working on finding a
35:25
coffee loving doctor to join us to dig into how coffee impacts
35:29
our health. If you know, anyone who might be
35:31
interested in being part of this show, please send me a message.
35:34
Sajjana Instagram at Rose to West Coast or through roast
35:37
westcoast.com. Thank you to Chris Siri and
35:40
Jared. You've made this show better and
35:43
you've made all of us. Even me coffee smarter And
35:47
thanks to you for listening today.
35:48
Thank you for supporting this show.
35:50
Thank you for checking out your local coffee roasters and coffee
35:53
shops. I'm looking forward to bringing
35:56
you more interviews with coffee professionals and more coffee,
35:59
education in season. 5 starting with an interview with Kenny
36:02
Fletcher. He's the owner and head roaster
36:04
of paper tiger Coffee Roasters up in Vancouver Washington.
36:08
That's going to drop two weeks from now.
36:10
I'll be connecting with lots of Roasters in the Pacific
36:13
Northwest next season and spending some time on the road.
36:16
This summer, exploring some of the coasts coffee shops.
36:20
If you have a suggestion for me, please send it and maybe I'll
36:23
see you out there and we'll get to chat over a cup of coffee.
36:26
A huge thanks to this shows industry partners for helping
36:29
roast West Coast. Get this far for helping us
36:31
establish a little credibility, and for being willing to support
36:35
this effort, to support the whole of craft coffee and the
36:38
community of awesome people in it, including mostra Coffee
36:42
Company. I can't go through this whole
36:44
show without shouting out most his head.
36:46
Mr. Nick Berardi. He truly made his coffee Dojo
36:50
proud when he won the United States coffee roaster
36:53
championships in Boston. Last week, it's a huge deal and
36:57
he's moving on to the world competition in Milan.
36:59
Italy, also leap coffee leap is celebrating their sixth
37:04
anniversary. This week, another Milestone.
37:07
Check out their website. Leap dot coffee or Instagram at
37:10
leap. Coffee.
37:11
For special announcements. Involving coffee releases,
37:14
coffee deals and details on. R new, bring your own mug
37:17
discount. I'll also link to all that on
37:19
roast westcoast.com in this episode's newsletter.
37:23
Thank you to the rest of my great Partners.
37:25
Alden it Cafe, latere Grayson and Joe at Maria coffee, Elliot
37:29
Allen in the team at steady-state.
37:31
Roasting Chris O'Brien of coffee cycle, roasting Jason Simpson at
37:35
Camp Coffee Company. Jason, let's get another coffee
37:38
soon. Joe would Cape Horn coffee
37:40
importers Ryan and David at first like whiskey, they're
37:43
doing some big, big things and I'm hoping to become one of
37:46
their He testers at some point if you're listening to the show,
37:49
guys, I'm out here. I've got the time.
37:52
I'd be happy to taste whiskeys for you, and I want to thank the
37:55
most recent addition to the industry partner family, Tyler
37:58
at ignite coffee company, and my first-ever industry Partners.
38:02
Zoom bar coffee and tea. When I reached out to years ago,
38:05
Steve never even hesitated to offer up his time and then
38:08
become a supporter of this show. Links to all of those great
38:12
partners are right there on the front page of this shows,
38:14
newsletter at roast. East Coast.com.
38:18
And I definitely need to thank those of you out there who are
38:21
listening. Those of you who are subscribing
38:23
to the newsletter, and sending me questions and saying, what's
38:26
up at coffee shops or sharing videos and photos of you with
38:30
your roast West Coast stickers, and cups of coffee.
38:33
Thank you, all that's it. For this episode of the roast
38:36
West Coast coffee pod cast, as with all 86 previous episodes.
38:41
This one is was has been written produced and recorded by me Ryan
38:45
world. I hope this show is found you
38:47
happy healthy. Z and with at least enough
38:50
sanity and coffee to make it through the day.
38:53
Always tip your Baristas and be sure to drink good coffee.
38:58
I feel like saying it. One more time.
39:00
Be sure to drink a coffee. I like, hey everyone, if you
39:25
like the roast West Coast coffee podcast, you might also
39:28
appreciate the, I like beer the podcast, listening to these guys
39:32
is like being a fly on the wall of the pub with a few of your
39:35
favorite mates. Having a pint these professional
39:37
beer appreciators, have plenty of stories to share on
39:40
everything from the mating habits of penguins to there
39:43
behind the scenes Brewery experiences check out the, I
39:46
like beer the podcast where ever, you are listening to this
39:49
show about coffee or head. To, I like beer, the podcast.com
39:53
Ow.