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Life (and Death) Insights · Democracy Tomorrow

• SKA: Two one. Scott Leckie: Hey everybody, it's Scott Leckie here from Democracy Tomorrow. today's latest episode is going to be about an issue that affects everybody in the world, but far too few of us think about on the daily basis that we should, and that's our health, and what our health means to us, and what the role of the state should be in both preventing disease and treating disease and ensuring that. Everybody everywhere, all eight point three billion of us have a guaranteed right to the highest attainable level of physical and mental health as is stipulated in all of the world's major human rights treaties. All of us take our health for granted until we can't anymore. And I have many personal experiences with this, as does our guest today, and she'll s be speaking about those shortly. So Without any further ado, let me welcome today's guest, Stephanie Kleina Albront, who's speaking to us today from the world's capital in New York City. Stephanie, welcome to Democracy Tomorrow. SKA: So much. It's great to be here. Scott Leckie: So perhaps we can start off briefly about just tell us a little bit about your human rights life across the world, the some of the institutions you work for, where you worked, and where you find yourself today. SKA: Great. So I guess I spent about like twenty five or thirty years in roles that were fundamentally about like service in a way, if you want to really make it broad, in s you know, service to ideals, treaties, basic human dignity, and you know, like fascinated eventually by the gap Between what institutions claim they'll do and what they're actually doing, like either on the inside or on the outside, what they shouldn't be doing and they are, or vice versa. or just that human rights are brilliantly articulated on paper, but the whole point of them is practice, you know. like you look at a country like China, if they implemented everything they had, at least on the books. it would be a fundamentally different situation, right? If they followed some of the so yeah, so I bounced between like UN think tank and then kind of, you know, starting out doing investigations in like genocide affected countries like Rwanda, Bosnia, and then, you know, doing more work on the African continent and then being asked to work on China. And then because you can't really work on China unless you're a Sinologist, like in the space of working on that, like learning the language, and then leaving, you know, to do kind of a fellowship to switch the conversation from China's internal human rights to China's effect on so many other countries' human rights. So North Korea, Myanmar, you know, Sudan, Zimbabwe, now it's like all of Latin America. Now it's like almost every country, but it was like the early two thousands when that wasn't really in the discourse. And then doing that in practice by getting, you know, a job in another think tank moving out to Beijing. I set up the office there for National Crisis Group. And that was like what you call a dream job. You know, there's like they're rare, right? I mean I all my jobs were dream jobs in a way, but that was just being on the ground you know, and your job just being to like talk to people. Like eighty percent of our reports are just talking to people and basically making diplomatic secrets public, right? Is what we were doing. And then came back to DC, tried to work in DC, at really the best place for me to be in DC, at the U Sin's US Institute for Peace, and couldn't hack it. It's another story. Like you just trade too much to be, you know, like you know, getting a lot of access comes at a high cost. You really can't be saying things publicly and then having meetings all the time with the NSC or, you know, the White House, but no one was really changing anything either. And then leaving that and coming to New York and working the final I I did this 'cause it's it was sanctions basically. on a security council committee on North Korea and that was to finally understand like I wanted to understand all the carrots and sticks we had in institutions to make change. And I knew sanctions were messed up, but I was like I need to work on it. So then you know became kind of a sanctions expert and then just gave it all up and got super trained in coaching leadership systems because I was just at the end I was just finally clear that the change we need really has to come from inside people. So it's it's deeper work, right? Because all these institutions that profess to go out and implement these very lofty goals, you know, are running on burnout of their best people or suicides in the case of Amnesty International. or just toxic cultures. I mean you wouldn't because once I started coaching I was asked by a lot of these institutions to go inside and you would be surprised like these amazingly well known institutions just having like a certain office that was completely toxic, no psychological safety. In fact I had to refuse several very sexy assignments because I couldn't be sure that there was going to be enough safety to actually host it. have people come out and then when I leave they get retaliated on, right? So so yeah, so I've become a little bit obsessed with that, with sort of, you know, coaching systems and coaching mostly individuals that are working in, you know, leadership roles in nongovernmental organizations, think tanks, and you know, multilateral organizations. And I love that because I feel like It's something I would have needed so badly and never got to take advantage of. And and you see change. Like I think it's like about humans, not institutions. So I'd love to speak to you about that. Because I think the idea of like a world government inherently takes you away from the people. but yeah, like, you know, it's a privilege to be able to go in and like speak to people and learn. Like it's Part of its psychology. I got trained in internal family systems, which is a really, really beautiful methodology. And yeah, and just and now like because I'm sick, you know, with this stage four diagnosis, I've been able to go and work with legal aid lawyers in Myanmar, Afghanistan, and in the West Bank. These are some of the most amazing people you will ever meet. They're defending in Myanmar they're defending Rohingya children that can't get papers and then they're thrown in jail 'cause they don't have papers, right? They can't get papers because they're not consider and then the West Bank heroic stuff they're doing. Only when, you know, the US turned into a sort of a autocratic, you know, system, a lot of the money dried up for those things. So like And then yeah, Afghanistan just very, very inspiring. So so I'm really happy and I did all that before that you the the traditional, you know, path is you get a an illness and then you change your life. But I'm really proud of the fact that I did it before I got the illness. And almost Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: it was perfect like that. It wasn't like changing my it was like building up. In fact, when I was at the Security Council, I was going for coaching training, you know, and like you know, I'd be like with some ambassador, usually yelling at us about what we're what we're gonna put in a report and then go to this training where you're like spot coaching people and it's someone who wants to lose weight and I'm like, my God, am I doing the wrong thing? Like I can never coach someone to lose weight. But Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: but it was nice, like just being in compl two completely different circles and then finally, you know, forgetting you know, like leaving the UN finally forever, you know? So Scott Leckie: Right. SKA: That's been amazing. I wish I could do more of that kind of work. It's I just really fundamentally believe it's supporting people and communities on the ground doing the work, right? Because I just, you know, some of these larger bureaucracies that support that, like, you can know. I was just in Tibet, met with like organizations all day for like five days. You can know those organizations and correct and give them money directly. You don't have to go through UNHCR or USAID or right? Like, why are they necessary and they know what's going on and those people removed don't. Well you know all this. So yeah, so that's kind of my trajectory. Scott Leckie: So if we before we talk about some of your health battles and things like that, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: at the very beginning, you know, like I can trace back why I chose a human rights life, you know, f from about ten different strands of influence, you know. What was it that got you into that instead of being a corporate lawyer or a investment banker or a doctor or whatever else you could have possibly been? What was it about human rights that grabbed you? at the beginning. SKA: Well, I mean, fundamentally I've always been like the person on the playground who like intervenes against the bully and you know, like I'm always like it's always Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: been there. So be making friends with the most unpopular person in the school, right? Of course now those people are leading the world, so it's really very cool, right? Very gratifying. Scott Leckie: yeah. SKA: So my idea was one of two things. So either be a lawyer and end up on the Supreme Court. Or work in healthcare in the US because Hillary Clinton had all those ideas about healthcare, none of it happened, right? Or go work like internationally on like human rights or anything that directly affects like humans. I would have maybe settled for migration, although I didn't go to HCR when I had a chance. So I don't know. I mean My mom was Dutch and she lived during the Nazi occupation of Amsterdam and they hit a Jewish family under the floor. We're not Jewish, but and then she, you know, they got on a boat and immigrated to Canada and had a really hard life. Is that part of the inspiration? and what else? I mean, I don't know how to explain it. Like it was just kind of always there. Yeah. And then I like took a job I w actually it was very practical too. I went and did my senior year abroad at the Institut d'études politique in France. And then while I was there in Strasbourg, I looked around, I was like, I got really familiar with the Council of Europe. I'm like, I can work there. So I got in, so I never went back to the US for like so many years. And then I was in. Like once you're in, you know, I was hired as like the very lowest person. But like in August, you know, no one works in Europe. Like in in the U, like there could be a genocide going on and no one shows up. It's insane. They take like almost two months off. So during that time they sent me to Albania. There was a political crisis between Albania and Greece. And I was like sent. It was almost like a mistake, because I'm an American. I'm not even a member of Council of Europe country. And I had wrote a full report and presented it to the council of ministers and I was hooked. I was like, I want to go and look at the situation and talk to people and bring that back to institutions that can do something about it, you know? So then I yeah, so Scott Leckie: Right. Right. SKA: then I like went to Geneva and went to I knew I'd need like a master's. So I went and did my first year, and then Rwanda happened, and I got the name of the guy in the UN who was hiring. And I used like the public phone in our little, you know, I was in a l like a place on the grounds of the institute, Graduate Institute of International Studies, and I just called them every day. Called them every day. And that was actually yeah, and then like I really was parlaying my field experience in Albania, which was really nothing. But lit they were desperate. They had to set up a whole field operation with like no time. So they just like they sent us, we got I got like all my shots in both arms the day before leaving. We got there, there were no cars. It was a total mess. But I just wasn't gonna give up. And then I left and I left before finishing my masters and I came back and did the thesis. That's how like I was so, you know, keen to get the hell out of academia. I was always like academic breaks and then back to practice. And then an academic break and back to practice. So Scott Leckie: Right. SKA: So you see how like your life can be so affected, it's a bad thing sometimes because, you know, people get into a certain route and then around them the things that come up are literally the same kinds of things and then before you know it, you're you're like fifty and you're like, How did I get here? Because you haven't really been looking at the whole world. You're just operating in your little place, right? And So I you know, I think circumstance has a lot to do with it. But I also think my really true like after coaching, I really fundamentally feel that if you have kind of a heart of service, the universe sorts it out for you. I don't know if you've seen that. Like, yeah. It's can be really, Scott Leckie: Sure. Yeah, totally. SKA: really tough. Like you might have to, you know, like not be able to afford, you know, anything like nice for many years, but i eventually you're Scott Leckie: Yeah. SKA: you're gonna be able to do it. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Yeah, that's right. I mean that you know, to to quote one of my heroes, Jerry Garcia of The Grateful Dead, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, who did who the band that did things in the ultr ultimately unorthodox manner. If you follow your heart, wealth will follow, you know? And you know, that's really true. I mean, I can give a thousand stories like that. I lived under the poverty line for you know, a solid fifteen years. But SKA: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: ultra happy, ultra happy doing exactly what I wanted. And you know, that SKA: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Scott Leckie: that of course goes to the one of the countless issues about humanitarianism generally. Why do we a why do we expect humanitarians, the most compassionate people on the planet, people that universally unconditionally care about every single other fellow human, whether they've met them or not, why should they be paid automatically so much less than people who pursue selfish careers, you know? And there's this general SKA: Yeah. Exactly. Scott Leckie: acceptance. Like, if you're helping people, and that's not just humanitarians or human rights activists, but it's nurses, it's rubbish collectors, it's all the basic fundamental jobs. Caregivers. Yep. SKA: Yeah, yeah. Yep. Isn't that crazy? Caregivers. Caregivers. Like there's a crisis in this country for caregivers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Right, right. Yeah. And they're expected to take the lowest possible wages and yet what they're doing is is, you know, in your language, service. You know, it's helping others to SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: suffer less, essentially. And, you know, I'm d I'm constantly trying to find you know, what's what inspiration can we give people who d haven't yet felt that, you know? And and there's a countless SKA: Yes, yeah. Scott Leckie: series of things you can say or do. But at at its core is, you know, you do have to have that that whether it's a calling or whether it's SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: based on one event of of your youth when you were five years old. Like SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: I, you know, I remember my playground, my first playground experience was totally about the bully, right? And the victim SKA: man. Scott Leckie: was me, right? The victim was me, three years old. He stole my Tonka truck. This asshole, this big burly bruiser of a boy covered in SKA: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: dirt, and he took my Tonka truck. And I just couldn't, you know, I couldn't articulate it. I don't know what it was, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: but it I just that sense of injustice where this big SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: asshole dickhead just rips my favorite toy away. And I just was so shocked, you know. I couldn't put it into words. And that in countless other ways, you know, really manifested in that sense that I have as strongly today as I ever have, that, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, don't let the bullies get away with it. Have a sense of justice, have a sense of, you know, accountability, and have systems in place that prevent the emergence, you know, of the bullies, because our current SKA: Of that. Yeah. Scott Leckie: system is not really functioning very well in that regard. You know, and if you look around at the world, you know, I still do plenty of human rights activities and I make human rights films and I write human rights books and stuff and sometimes, you know, still work on individual situations. But mostly I write novels now. And the novels are very much in that same direction. They're f but they're fictionalized. SKA: Yeah. Yep, yeah. Scott Leckie: And ultimately in the end, it's about the bully versus the good guy. And, you know, the first novel I wrote is about B the End of Billionaires. The second one, which is coming out next month, is about the end of dictators. And it's all based on factual things. Yeah, yeah. And just in a couple of weeks, yeah. that one's called psychotic SKA: It's coming out on the fourth of November, right? It's coming out on the fourth of November. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: despotic. But you know, it what it allows because they are all psych psychotic despotic. You know, speaking of health, I mean may maybe this is a good transition point. You know, there's a lot SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: of people who are much more knowledgeable than me in in the psychological field who I work with in various capacities, who and others, authors and others recently, for instance, Astra Taylor and Naomi Klein just wrote this fantastic book called End Times Fascism. And one of the points they're making is that, you know, the fascist class, which happens to be this convergence of the tech bros plus the Billy Bros, the billionaires. plus the authoritarian leaders, they all basically have problematic mental states going on. And SKA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, there is a mental slash psychological basis upon which they decide to, you know, live their lives out. And, you know, we need to address that. And that has to, you know, we have to help SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: them. We have to help them with their mental in capacities and and show that the only reason that we have billionaires today that 3,400 billionaires that are running the planet with their 79 dictator mostly bros, 99% of them, almost all men, by the way, those two groups, is because SKA: Yeah, I know. Scott Leckie: of the state of their consciousness. It's the state of their mind. If you allow yourself to accrue five hundred billion dollars And you don't give a penny of it away to the half of humanity SKA: Yeah. Crazy. Scott Leckie: who lives under the poverty line, there's something wrong with you, you know? And there's something wrong with you SKA: Yeah, exactly. Scott Leckie: if you have to continue to accrue. You know, there's this great SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: term by that that Plato made up years ago, thousands of years ago, Pleonexia. It's the it's the SKA: wow. Scott Leckie: state of avarice, the state of unsatiable greed, to which there is no for which there is no cure, you know. So it's a SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: disease, you know, pleonexia is a disease and we live in the age of pleonexia. And how do we how do we confront this better, you know? And and using whether SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: it's human rights tools or or just taxation rules or general rules, because all of these things can be tackled. I believe if you ask SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: most people on your street in New York City or my city near me, Melbourne, it's far away, thankfully, but it's still my closest big city. SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: If you ask most people, do you want to live in a world governed by dictators and billionaires? ninety nine percent would say no. And that's what we asked. SKA: No. Yeah. Scott Leckie: So what do we do? What do we do about these guys? SKA: Well, I think social media and the internet and now AI is making everything worse. I mean, you literally have a world in which first because there's no good at least in the US mental health, there's no like you know, we had this recent trial of this woman who had postpartum psychosis, like she went to all the she couldn't even get and she's well educated There's like mental health is like lower than it's ever been. And in girls, it's because of Instagram, that type of environment, the like thing. And you know, and also people who can't afford like babysitters for their kids, they just give a phone. And then you have Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: people growing up with completely different realities, right? Like I stayed at an Airbnb near my son's college. They were the nicest people ever. And then like I went down into the living room, they had a TV like the size of the wall and it had news max on like all the time. And they Scott Leckie: sorry. SKA: like came out with like y you heard about the poor South Africans, the white South Africans, remember that? Like Scott Leckie: yeah. Yeah, right. SKA: so like yeah, I think that social media and then the fact that that's so easily, you know, co-opted like we saw. with the Cambridge Analytica thing, right, that was like the firm hired to really use, you know, to put campaigns like on behalf of evil people. So I think that's one of the big problems. And then, you know, the polarization is because fundamentally no one is they're so polarized that no one feels heard. Like You know, you're never gonna convert someone if you're just like, you're wrong, you're bad, you're right? Like so there's just no space. And that's just lack of like we get to learn how to, you know, brush our teeth, but we're not really taught taught like basic conflict resolution skills, right? How to talk to someone who has a different view from you. and then we have like again, it's this whole social media you heard about the The incels and the looks max are men, they're breaking their jaws with like Scott Leckie: Yeah. SKA: tr you know, to like and that's all like any man like that I know between the ages of like eighteen and thirty is getting that shit on repeat. Like and some of them that are smart kids, like go with it. So I don't know, I kind of despair at that. And then And then, you know, I marvel at the people still fighting. Because being in New York, every protest is here. You know, we just had an ice death. a guy who was a police who was wearing like a a city worker's outfit, like in disguise, and everyone's in an uproar. you know, I took a really great resistance training, anti-ICE training, and they had been basically building on the paradigms from like LA. To Minneapolis, to Chicago, to New York, like just learning along the line. And then we our mayor is amazing. We have Zoran Mamdani. And he showed Scott that like money, money couldn't buy his his opposition. Like, remember how much I don't know how many like it was sixty I don't know. Like so much money went in and he still won. And then yeah, I mean we're all hoping for midterms to produce a different Congress. But then we're gonna corner. the orange man so much that he's probably gonna go crazy. Like I'm gonna go to Rwanda next month and the best airline is Qatar. But I can't take Qatar because for Scott Leckie: I don't know. SKA: sure he's gonna go back to bombing Iran and then they're gonna retaliate on Qatar and they'll have to close their airspace, right? So yeah, Scott Leckie: Yeah, absolutely. SKA: it's it's insane. I mean I don't know what you think are the solutions. Scott Leckie: Well, I mean I mean, I could spout off a thousand different ideas, but I think at the end of the SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: day at the end of the day, the most important thing for most people, most places, in the end is exposure. And simply exposure SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: to people who di who think differently, who look differently, who eat different foods, who b have different religions, who have different cultures, over and over and over again. And hopefully it only takes one major exposure to get people to realize That everybody everywhere is exactly the same. SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: And the tiny differences that we have between us are equal, what culture means. And that's a beautiful thing. And it's a fabric, it's a quilt of a thousand different things that looks fantastic together. And that if we bind SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: ourselves together based on our shared attributes, which are infinitely larger than our differences, we can SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: finally build the unified planet that we should have SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: had in the first place. Instead of defining SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: ourselves by our differences, we define ourselves by our similarities. And y I don't care who you are, you you will never be able to convince me that I am fundamentally different than all of the people I have met all across the world times millions. Because there is no difference in the end. It's all about the way that we relate to each other, you know? And SKA: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Scott Leckie: the potential for our species as a whole to Be so much better than we're proving to be is gigantic. And that's what I will continue SKA: Yeah. Yep. Scott Leckie: to push for, you know, until my dying day, that we have to find a way to bring ourselves together. And there's a lot of positive strands out there where it is happening. It doesn't tend to get the airtime that all the hatred and all the division and all the and the conflicts and con and you know, confrontations do. But I think again, if you ask most people on the street, you know, would you much rather have a more unified world than a disparate one? They're gonna choose unity. It's the way that humans are programmed, really, in the end. And we need to re SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Scott Leckie: rediscover that because, you know, as we were talking about before we went on air, you know, I expected you know, you're like seven years younger than me, so relatively same age group. When we started our human rights lives, you know, me in the eighties, you probably in the early nineties we actually lucked out at the beginning because we can we we suddenly got given to us on a silver platter this grandiose SKA: Yep. Scott Leckie: scheme of possibilities because the Cold War ended and the Berlin Wall fell, and all of a sudden SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: these forces of goodness were released and and nobody even knew what was going on. You know, it was almost too much goodness to handle. But it was great for human rights SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: people like us because we could do anything we wanted all of a sudden, and actually SKA: Yep. Yep. Scott Leckie: you know, succeed. And now as SKA: Yep. Scott Leckie: we approach the latter part of our working lives, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: it is not the world that I thought would be here. If you asked me at the SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: beginning, what's the world gonna be like in twenty twenty six? I would have had a very different prediction than what we have. Now, SKA: Never. Scott Leckie: the only positive twist is when things go really bad, you know, the darkest point is just before the dawn, right? So it and I think SKA: That's right. Scott Leckie: In New York City with SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: the election of Zoran and in other you know, the f the fact that they were able to dismiss Orbon in Hungary, that the the SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: left wing coalition in Holland, you know, one of my countries, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: the PRO, they are now the leading co party in the country. you know, the Green Party here in my beloved state of V Victoria is higher in the polls than they have ever been, eighteen percent right SKA: Well Scott Leckie: now. For the next election next month, they'll hold the balance of power, probably. You know, there's a lot of positive political news in the world. SKA: Well yeah. Scott Leckie: And yet we have the United States Empire, which is on its decline, clearly by any SKA: Totally. Scott Leckie: objective measure, it's very obvious that the every empire, when it's at the bitter end, fights desperately to hold on to it. SKA: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Scott Leckie: And they always end up overextending and doing the wrong thing. Just read history, guys. That's what's happening. You can do it gracefully. You can do it with grace. But they're not. And recent SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: sanctions, decisions, all sorts of militaristic decisions, all sorts of political SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: decisions are simply reducing the respect given to the United States at a global level to to levels they've it's probably SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: never been so low since the end of the second world war. And all that does is SKA: Yeah? Yeah. Scott Leckie: expedite the the inevitable end that they're trying to avoid and they can't see that. And and most people SKA: Yep. Yep. Yep. Scott Leckie: and I think many co people can see it in the United States, but most probably still can't. And so, you know, that's the kind of we need to rediscover the as SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: the the decision by the Nobel Committee a few days ago to award the Nobel Peace Prize to Nave Pile did that international SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: law matters because it's a structure based on rules and principles. People don't want a system that's based exclusively on military power and the you know, the power of the law of the jungle. People don't want that, you know? But we SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: need to, you know, re refresh that and and bring it back to the prominence that it was meant to have at the end of the Second World War. And and you know, we're really we're at the end of this eighty year cycle right now and you know, the it's unknown what will become of it in the next five to ten, twenty years of particularly when you add AI to the mix. But SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: I think a practical remedy is to create systems that enable the world to be comprised of legal world citizens sharing the same nationality. And we can do that. Technologically we can s you know, if you can do it in China with a one point five billion people, and you can do it in India with one point five billion people and you can do it in the US, all sharing the same passport, all having identification numbers, blah blah blah blah blah, all entitled to vote, at least to a certain extent, you can do SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: it at a global level. But what's missing is the mind, the collective mind to wish to do that. SKA: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Scott Leckie: So how do we bring that back? You've you've worked all around the world, I've worked all around the world, we know millions of people from millions of places. How do we SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: get that sense of our shared humanity back on the front burner? SKA: I mean, I think working in communities always makes sense. getting people in the community together to discuss their problems, realizing that, you know Like for example, in Darmsala you have the local population and you have the Tibetans. And for so long they just really kind of, you know, there was animosity 'cause they both felt that the other one was like richer. But both of them were suffering. It's just that Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: the Tibetans would get a bit of money and they'd buy something because somehow encoded in them is who knows how long we're gonna be here, who knows how long this is gonna last, right? But it's not like they had more money. And once they were sat down By this amazing organization, Center for Conflict Resolution, you know, to like talk honestly about what their challenges were. They were like, it's all the same. So, you know, and it was possible to do that with Israelis and Palestinians. But now we're at this level of polarization that those programs are very hard to into you know, to actually pull off. But starting with that type of thing, like the person that you other, right? So I I firmly believe Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: in that kind of. And then the problem is the billionaires. So I don't know if you know about Evan Osnos's book, The Yachts and the Have Yachts. And it's like Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. SKA: now it's not just a yacht. It's like like and I actually took a few trips in the past few years with someone who's at that level. And they are so separate from our world. They are so like they just never come into contact with it. Like, like when you're Scott Leckie: Yeah. Yeah. SKA: when you're rich, all people want is walls and privacy, right? That's what everything's about. Like, get my own plane, get my own helicopter, get my own place to stay in a really beautiful place that no one else is in. Like, I don't know how we reverse that, but I mean, I know now that there's much more disdain. You know, this has always been like in the US under Reagan as well. Like, that's why we Dems were like so upset because the middle class gets sh smaller and then you know the rich and the poor get larger. Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. SKA: and there's always been a tolerance in the US of like wealth disparity, partly because we have these shows that like put the rich and famous out there and make you feel like you could maybe one day win the lottery or be that, right? But I think that's Scott Leckie: Mm, mm-hmm. SKA: that's starting to like waver, right? Like everyone's getting hit by, Scott Leckie: Yeah. SKA: you know, the tariffs and all of that. Some of them remain stalwart supporters of this, you know, this government, despite losing everything they have. That I can't really understand. But A friend of mine works as a labor organiz organizer up in Michigan and he's actually working closely with Bernie and he's posting stuff every day about like the movement, where things are going. And it's it's pretty amazing. So I I too believe things are cyclical, that all the like partly it's sad for me, because I always say to my son, like, I'm not gonna be here for what comes next, but it's better be good, right? Like we better burn this down. Right. And then the other thing is fundamentally, I'm sorry, but like the patriarchy. I just I'm sure that if we had women in more positions of power, they would do some of the same stuff the men do. But I don't know. I've yeah, you know, I've just seen different kind of leadership, right? Authentic leadership, focusing on, you know, like culture, psychological safety, real impact, you know, part of these things are forced. Right, 'cause most of us have kids and then we have to balance like a family and then there's a whole new avenue for activism. So anyway, I'm on I'm I'm gonna give you that one, Scott. Like how do you how do you Scott Leckie: Yeah. SKA: neutralize the patriarchy? Scott Leckie: Well, yeah, that I mean, y you know, again, it's y you know, very often people in positions of power or dominance do end up shooting themselves in the feet. You know, they get so hubristic about their their position SKA: Yeah. Yep. Scott Leckie: that they do and that is happening now, like very on a very widespread basis. a lot of these, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, economically dominant groups and elite groups and political entities called nation states, they are over and over again shooting themselves in the feet. And Something has to replace that and let's hope it's not something worse and something better. It's you know, to me and probably to you, like it's so obvious the the commonality amongst the human race, right? That it's in it's in it's almost a collective insanity that we don't do more to bring ourselves together, you know? Like and SKA: Yep. Yeah. Scott Leckie: and that that just continues to boggle my mind that you know SKA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: I'm not going I'm my country is not better than anyone else's country, you know. My race SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: is not better, my gender is not better, none of my stuff is better. We're all the damn same, you know? And just accept that fact and re and just as I always say, just imagine the parties, you know? The parties would be so much better So much better and it would be a perpetual party, SKA: Well the you know the Germans Scott Leckie: you know? SKA: the Germans and the Dutch have like there's like a Burning Man thing on the border between them with intent of Scott Leckie: Right. SKA: like I think it's beautiful. Yeah. So you're right, the parties thing actually happens, yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Yeah. The par the party would be amazing. And then, you know, I've always I constantly make this plea for a like a a universal one once a year global holidayslash party slash lose your mind kind of event that that is better than Christmas and New Year's Eve and Holy and Ramadan and all the others combined, Super Bowl, World Cup Final Olympics. SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Every single year, choose the day, and then just remember and celebrate our shared humanity and start building a a civilization that's premised on that. And if we do that, I mean SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: it's within our grasp. I mean that's the thing. It's within our grasp. You know, we have a hundred we have a global SKA: Yeah. It is. It is. Scott Leckie: economy of about a hundred and thirty trillion dollars now, you know. And if it was managed properly SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: and and you know, f other forces which are repressed now, good ones that are were released. we'd easily be able to satisfy all the basic needs of all of humanity and much more in a peaceful and progressive manner and in which far more people were happy than they are today, you know. So let's just turn again to this question of health. So, you know, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: as I said at the beginning, you know, until your health is bad, most people, most places most of the time, totally don't think about it and they take it for granted. And they live their lives as if they may never end, that they feel good, they get up, they go to work, they do their thing, and then bam, lo and behold, everybody everywhere at one point in their life, sooner or later, will be blasted in the face with SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: their own health fragility. And I've had my a whole series of of health crises in my life. In fact, I put it in one of my recent books. I've probably I have the horrible distinction of probably having been more sick with more different diseases in more countries in the world than any human alive. And that is not SKA: Wow. Scott Leckie: a thing I've sought to have, believe me. It's the worst. But each time, SKA: No, no. Scott Leckie: you know, I remember looking out of the window of the hospital in whatever country I was in with diseases I couldn't even pronounce. And always SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: looking out and and being so jealous of everyone just walking around doing their thing, you know? And they have n SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: and I always thought, God, they have no idea how lucky they are, you know? That never even crosses their SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: mind. Riding their bike along, going to work, going to the market, as if it's nothing. And then SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: when you're not able to do it, man, it hits you hard. So what about you? Tell SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: us about your I mean, you have this incredible sub stack called Journeys Within and Beyond. Which is just a fantastic chronicling of your own health challenges of the last five or six years. I would urge everybody SKA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: to to read that and subscribe to it. It's great. Proves again that you're a fantastic writer who should write even more. and it's a very moving account of what it's like to live with stage four cancer that you've been doing for now five or six years. So tell us about that. SKA: Yeah, I mean, you know, I was diagnosed at fifty one. I was like in some of the best health of my life, like yogi, cycling, swimming, running around the world. And so it was a big shock, you know, to be given this diagnosis. But I don't know, like I also thought You know, so then I ha I had to get on a treatment quickly and I and like I basically was told you have a year. So I just went into like death preparation mode. And I kinda there's things I really enjoyed about that because I just think if you look at the reality, people don't. But like we are of the nature to get sick and die. Everyone's gonna die. Like even when I go to the calangiocarcinoma conference and I speak as a patient, I actually did a whole like you know, you're all gonna die too. You're all gonna get 'cause there's this like patient doctor difference, right? So Scott Leckie: Yeah. Yeah. SKA: for me I was like, wow, like and I'm gonna pop off soon. Like I didn't think about this. But then when I looked back through my life, I felt like I did everything like on double speed. And now I was like, now I see why I just did like I was just never content Scott Leckie: Mm. SKA: to just stay and rot in one organization that like wasn't living up to, you know, its own standards really. So, and then it just has been extended and it so I had a whole idea for a legacy fund. This was for this legal aid foundations called the ILF, International Legal Foundation, and basically we set up criminal defense systems in post-conflict countries. And I put it in my name and everyone who wanted to bring like a cheesecake or you know a food dish, I was like, just donate to this. And I we funded it like a hund it was about a hundred thousand dollars, right? So that was check checked off. Then it was like I need to like get my son To he was in a very science, like nihilistic thing, and I was like, he needs to like get spiritual sort of depth and and like exposure to the non-dual universe. That's been accomplished. thanks to like we did a ton of trips with like a spiritual, you know, focus. And then yes, and then my other thing was to like write about this stuff. And it was really Like I've been talking to people about writing for a long time. I've gotten a lot of pressure to write a memoir. Honestly, I'm just not I'm not really interested. I don't, you know, I just there's a lot of reasons. And then I was like, I won't do a memoir, but I could do like a substack. And then it still took me like a couple years to put to start it. so yeah, I mean, so like Being five and a half years in, there's a something like a five percent chance. And you know, I'm and now it looks like I might be at the end of like all approved treatments. And you know, I'm I'm really sad to go because having this extra time has been amazing, right? Like you get to see, at first when I got the diagnosis, I was like, I'm just gonna have a terrible quality of life. I looked into medical aid and dying. I found the place I'm gonna die, like the hospice. And so yeah, you're like it's life is really fun. But on the other hand, like I've had so much more of it than I thought I'd get, you know? And so Scott Leckie: Right. SKA: yeah, I mean it's just it's just another like that it's why I use the word journey. Sometimes the word journey is just overused in the woo-woo like spiritual community, but Scott Leckie: Yeah, very much. SKA: It is. It's just another right, it's just another journey, right? It's just another thing. And like you get to learn a lot about yourself in pain and like Scott Leckie: Mm. SKA: you said, like do people doing normal things or yeah, like it it just it gives you like an inner like view of what it looks like to live with a disability, frankly, right? so Scott Leckie: Right. Right. SKA: that's really that's really precious and And then, yeah, and it gives me an opportunity to like try to wake other people up to, you know, they did that Harvard study on adult development. They followed those men all through their lives. none of them th thought they should have another day at the office. All of them spoke about Scott Leckie: Yeah. SKA: like be being authentic, Scott Leckie: Right. SKA: focusing on love, all that sort of stuff. So I just use my case to show people you can just be totally healthy one day. And then you just don't know what's gonna happen. I also Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: thought I was kind of lucky that I didn't just get hit by a bus or go down with a plane, because like I do get this time to prepare, right? And then yeah, Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: you're just like, what is your purpose? Why are you here? what are you tolerating? Like, why? Right? Like, you better get on it, right? Because nothing is guaranteed. And that's even more true now. I think one in two people in the US will get cancer. Scott Leckie: Made SKA: So yeah, it's Scott Leckie: well. SKA: been a really enlightening journey, I guess. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Well, it's ver like every time I read your substack it's it is ultra inspiring that you're able to keep going and deal with it in a really, you know, positive and embracing way. And particularly that you're able to and that you even want to keep traveling to distant corners of the world. W which most SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: people on the planet would not even contemplate going to in the best of health. you know, and you're going SKA: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: to Tibet and you're going to Let's see, you've been in I think Myanmar not that long ago. You've been in Palestine, Afghanistan. Most people with stage four SKA: Afghan Afghanistan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: cancer after four or five years are not going to those places. And and you are, and that's fantastic. SKA: But the calculation, Scott, is like some I'm gonna die anyway. So why should I be Scott Leckie: Right, right. SKA: more like why should I be more risk averse now? If I step on a mine in Afghanistan, Scott Leckie: Sure. Right. Right. Right. SKA: you know, I probably die anyway within a year. So what it's not like I I became like the opposite of risk averse. It's like risk yeah, yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Fearless. Fearless. Yeah. Right. Right. I I get that. And that's one of those things that you don't really realize until you're sick. You know, like you you that SKA: Yep. Yep. Scott Leckie: level of fearlessness that you can have, you know, it's one of the positive fringe benefits of of getting sick or you know, it's simply facing your the the inevitability of your own impermanence, which is the reason for so many of the problems in the world. You know, most people SKA: Yep, exactly. Scott Leckie: Can't handle it. Like most people, most places, except for you know mostly the Buddhists, some some Hindus, you can't they cannot handle the simple fact that they are not forever. And they will then live out SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: their lives and believe mythical stories, tr trying to s you know, soothe themselves into thinking, thumbsucking their life, you know, trajectory, that somehow they're gonna live forever in some mythical heaven heavenly place. SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: Which is, you know, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: just an i which it kind of gives them the rationale or the pretext to do extremely horrible things to fellow human beings, you know? And so I think, you SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: know, it's another one of those things. Understanding impermanence, which luckily I discovered like, you know, when I was fifteen or something, and then really building on that throughout your life that, you know, every single moment that you're alive is an absolute miracle. And so live SKA: Exactly. Scott Leckie: it out to the absolute max and realize your impermanence. You know, I always I always say this like, you know, to not in a spiritual sense, but in a just basic fact of life sense to people and it always shocks them. And I I say, How many meals do you if you live an average lifespan, how many meals are you gonna get in your life? Answer that quickly. And they'll go, I don't know, five million? You know, like ten million that's always like way, way wrong. And SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: it's like It's like ninety thousand meals. That's all you get. Like SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: that's nothing, you know? And and and summers, yeah. Yeah, summers are season changes or you know, just basic, basic, really like in even like the SKA: Summers is also Summers is great. Like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: number of days you live, you know, the list goes on. and it's so tiny. It's such a tiny little thing. And so how can you live your whole SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: life being a fucking asshole? You know, like so many people are, because they SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: cannot handle the fact that they're not forever, you know. And I think that's really one of the SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: you know, it's strange to say it, but illness does also give gifts, you know? And as you've learned, you know, all the things you have in the last five or six years, and you know, for me, I was always super busy and active and you know, I worked in more than eighty countries so far, et cetera, et cetera, and, you know, written thousands of things and stuff. but I was really getting super ultra sick right in the beginning phases of COVID in 2020, where I should have died. Like one like ninety-nine point nine nine nine nine percent of people that got what I got when they got it would have died. And and I it was only through like the sheer will of whatever exists inside me that allowed me to keep living. and all the doctors are like, whoa, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: dude, like how did you survive that? You know, SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: I mean I was in ICU, I was in hospital for 65 days, you know, like I was at certain points SKA: Wow. Wow. Scott Leckie: I was on eight opio eight opioids at once. At once, eight different opioids. And I you know, SKA: That's the Scott Leckie: I love exploring the the realms of innervoid psychedelic things. But I did not like to be on eight opioids at once, I'll tell you that. That was not nice. But when I got SKA: yeah. Scott Leckie: it through it all, you know, it was like it it turbocharged the next phase of life. You know, for me. It was like SKA: Yep. Yep. Scott Leckie: no delaying anymore. I there is no to do pile that's five hundred meters high. SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: I'm doing it all, you know? And I've churned out like ten books since SKA: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: then. I've just done all these things. I I ride my bike at least forty kilometers a day now, you know, like every SKA: Wow. Scott Leckie: single day. I'm outside ninety percent of the time if I can be, you know, where I live, it's possible to do that. I I'm on the SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: beach almost every single day, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so in that regard, you know, I'm very grateful that my body sent SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: that message to myself, you know. As bad as it was. And, you know, I'm I'm definitely SKA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Scott Leckie: making the most of things, you know. And clearly you are too. SKA: Yeah? Yeah. Scott Leckie: So, you know, keep going. That's SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: all I can say. It's keep going, keep going, keep going. You know. And it's nice to know too, like Yeah. SKA: Yeah, yeah. I it clarifies things important. Yeah. Scott Leckie: It clarifies and, you know, the great thing is, whether we die tomorrow or whether we die in a year or five or ten or whatever, you know, I am very, very grateful that I chose the life that I chose. You know. I don't regret SKA: Yeah. Yep. Scott Leckie: being a human rights guy. I don't regret knowing people from everywhere SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: in the corners of the distant corners of Earth. I don't regret SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: all the girlfriends I had or the Grateful Dead shows I went to or whatever it may be. It was awesome. You know, it was totally awesome. And I want everyone's life everywhere to be awesome, you know? And to be able to, you know, SKA: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: do what you wanna do and find your path, you know, find your particular trajectory that you're comfortable with but that also has challenges built in, that that draws out the best side of you, you know, and allows you to to maximize the good things in life, the kindness that you can show, the love you can show, the compassion you can show, the fun and the humor and the grace, all that stuff. You know, and be and just keep SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: doing that, because, you know, we n the world needs a lot more of that, basically. SKA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: right now and it's not it's so much more fun to be nice to people than to be mean, right? And you know SKA: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Exactly. Compassion like brings so much happiness. It's crazy that people don't just do it all the time, right? Like kindness. Scott Leckie: Yeah, and and you know, like as what's that phrase, you know, hurt people hurt people. Like people who are hurt SKA: People. Yeah. Scott Leckie: harm other people. And you know, we much more need to address this problem. Like almost every abuser in the world was themselves abused and they're trying to like manage that that trauma SKA: Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Scott Leckie: by doing the same thing that happened to themselves. And it's just, you SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: know, that's an absolute tragedy. So, you know. SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: Let's hope it's better. So SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: let's let's bring this to an end now. Well you know, do have any final thoughts to the audience today about state of the world, state of Stephanie Klein Aubront, State of the Universe? Anything you wanna share before SKA: Mm-hmm. Scott Leckie: we wrap it wrap it up? SKA: I mean, I think everyone should read your next book as it comes out. It's very exciting. You like Scott Leckie: thank you, thank you. SKA: you have a whole series and yeah, I mean, people shouldn't be daunted that these like to they need a career like this. Like you don't have to run around the world. You can just start with small steps and then you start Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. SKA: to see in your community, right? Like there's a great clearing house in New York called Who Cares? Is it that? It's it's like a whole volunteer network and like they've got all the volunteer opportunities and you just t choose like what you want to do and when. But like yeah, I mean so it it doesn't have to be like grand slam, like visiting eighty countries. I've also been to eighty countries, but I can't claim that I've worked in all of them. So, you know, you you outdid me on that one. But Scott Leckie: I've been to more than that. I worked in the in eighty plus, but I've been to more. SKA: See, exactly, exactly, exactly. So yeah, I mean just like don't be daunted. Just go out, get involved, right? And also, Scott Leckie: Absolutely. Absolutely. SKA: you know, just g get in the habit of dealing with people who don't look like you, don't sound like you, don't think like you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Right. And know that, you know what, they when when their stomach rumbles, it takes food to satisfy the rumbling. Doesn't matter where they are or who they are. And you know what? When their kid is SKA: Yeah. That's right. Yep. Scott Leckie: sick, they feel pretty bad, you know? And you know, if they're SKA: Exactly. Yep. Scott Leckie: living out on the street, it's not nice whether you're in New Delhi or in New York, you know, or any any other city that starts with new. Yeah. like SKA: Yep, exactly. Yeah. Scott Leckie: New New Rochelle. The first girl I ever kissed was from New Rochelle, New York. By the way. Yes. SKA: No way. Scott Leckie: I just thought of that some time ago. Hilarious. Yes. Yes. SKA: Yeah. Scott Leckie: so yes, with that, thank you very much, Stephanie, for being with us today. that was the latest episode of Democracy Tomorrow. If you like what we talk about and like what we do, please subscribe and tell your friends and help to build the global democracy that all of us really need if we want to have a planet on which all of us can prosper and thrive. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Thank you again, Stephanie Kleina Albrandt. All the best, everybody. Take care. SKA: Thank you, Scott. Thank you so much.