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Making Wellbeing Work with Natalie Wood · Humanity Working

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: We like to behave as if we had this one brain that we carry to work and it does all these clever things, and then we come home and then we're uh a partner, a parent, or yeah.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um that's just not how our brain works.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's one thing, it's one organ that does all of these things and that is affected by everything that happens to it.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone, welcome to Making Remote Work, where each episode we take a realistic look at remote and hybrid work, what works, what doesn't, and what to do about it.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now, today on the pod, uh here's a really great interview with Natalie Wood.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Natalie specializes in helping individuals, teams, and organizations get the best out of their employees by optimizing brain function for health and performance.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Through coaching, teaching, training, and consultation, drawing on the neuroscience and psychology of mental health, she helps organizations increase employee engagement and resilience.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: You can learn more about Natalie's work at www.engaged2evolve.com, and we'll leave details of that in the show notes.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: In addition, Natalie has just launched her own podcast, Making Well-being Work.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I like that name, sounds kind of familiar.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, we've covered a ton of ground in the episode, including how she discovered four axioms that guide her personal and professional life, how employees can use physical and emotional well-being as tools to do better in the workplace, and how emotional well-being is being affected by remote work.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: I learned a lot and I'm pretty sure you will as well.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: But before we get into any of that, just a couple of quick things to check off.
• 1:38
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• 1:45
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• 1:52
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• 1:58
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• 2:03
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• 2:06
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• 2:11
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• 2:15
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• 2:18
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• 2:22
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• 2:31
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• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's get going with this great conversation with Natalie Wood.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Natalie, it's great to talk to you today.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um just so our audience knows, you were connected to us by a friend of the pod, uh, McKay Volpe.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if anybody hasn't listened to that McKay episode, it's totally worth uh checking out in our back catalog.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: And when I was talking to you, um, and we've spoken a a couple of times now, I was really kind of struck by the um the shared interest that both you and McKay have in the concept, I guess, of human centricity.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: So McKay's exploring it in terms of you know how you create connections between organizations and the people that are really well suited to work there, but you're pursuing it through coaching teams and organizations in human centricity.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's start uh with how you do that.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and I think actually probably one of the more important questions is is why are you doing that?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh thanks Paul for having me um on this podcast.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And also, I guess thanks to Michele for connecting us.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, I I think it is interesting how um Michele and I we do aim for the same thing but call it differently, or I sometimes say come from slightly different angles.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, him very much from the managerial angle, having been at the top of organizations, so really knowing what they look like from a level of where you see whether people are functioning well and fitting well into the organization, and realizing that something needs to improve there.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: While I come more, I'd say, from the middle, uh realizing how people are disconnected from work, partly dissatisfied, unhappy.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I've realized that what really is needed is reconnections, reconnections for human beings to themselves.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding what makes them tick, understanding why they're actually doing the work they're doing.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, should they be doing that work?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Should they be doing something else?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is it that really makes them well and how can they have more of that well-being in their lives?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: But also to connect people within teams.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so looking at relationships, looking at relationships in teams, while teams are, of course, a piece of the organization that has a purpose to meet, and also the teams have a purpose to meet.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: But bringing back in this basic need of the brain, and we'll get there of human relationships, of good relationships.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I always say, Mikhail and I we want to do the same thing.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're working on the same thing, but we come from two slightly um different angles.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: So how did I'm curious?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this doesn't sound like a thing that you like, I don't know, come straight out of straight out of school and going, that's what I want to do, or indeed that's what I have the experience or the understanding or the knowledge to be able to do.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So how did how did you get to this point?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: How did you figure out that this was basically what you wanted to do with your life?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that I guess that uh took a while.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um I really started my professional life off as a teacher.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I went from being a teacher very briefly into a corporate career of close to 20 years, back into being a student and uh to where I am now.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I think I must elaborate a little bit on what happened to me in corporate because for me it was an incredibly good experience to be able to prove that I can learn, prove that I can make a difference, um, and with the certifications that I had, which were of course not very typical for corporate, what really made me able to thrive in that environment and to build a career was far less anything I knew about business, but much more my ability to connect people, to have people work together, to listen to different people, even enjoy those differences, enjoy bringing people together that usually don't work together well.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that for a while, in of course, there's no role that actually has you do that, so I did that in these various business roles that I had.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but eventually, um, yeah, I got stuck in overwhelm, um, as so many do, and started asking myself the big questions of why am I doing the work I'm doing?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: What's the meaning of this all?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what's the purpose that I want to fulfill in my life?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: What, you know, what's it all about?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And this came at a time, and I think that's also quite um happens quite often.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it came at a time where my life was changing a lot, family life was changing, there were children around which hadn't been there before.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in all of this exhaustion, uh, I didn't really know a way out, but I had a habit, and I have had that habit for a long time, which is to um exercise, to go for runs, to um clear my mind, knowing that when I clear my mind running, I actually often get ideas.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what happened.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in this space of not feeling in the right place anymore, asking myself all these big questions, and I go on one of my usual runs and come back with four.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was really exactly four very important ideas.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: At least they felt so important to me that towards the end of my run, I was just occupied with making sure I didn't forget them.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And as I got home, yeah, I was I was, you know, I was um repeating them to myself in my mind.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And as I got home, I wrote them down.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea that I was actually priming my brain at the time.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote them down, stuck them in my cupboard to make sure I see them every day, and I did not know that I had set myself up for eventually leaving my corporate career, putting people into the center of what I do, um, making sure that I can use this ability of mine that I had discovered much earlier on in my professional life uh from then onwards.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: It took a while still.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um these things, these changes don't happen overnight.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: It reminds it reminds me of uh of something a mentor of mine once said to me, and I'm sure it's probably been said multiple times by other people as well.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I rem I distinctly remember said to me, Paul, never let a midlife crisis go to waste.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think that uh I've I've kind of lived that at various points in my life too.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I I totally understand that that whole thing, there's actually a lot wrapped up in that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's like this this idea that that there's a build-up to that run.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, obviously you didn't just, you know, it feels like you went on that run and just like everything popped in.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, you've been by by by everything, uh, by everything that was there.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: And all the run was really doing was giving you the space for all of that stuff to all that stuff to come out.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Creating brain connections.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, exactly.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was uh so that's that's really interesting in its own right.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then uh once you have it, and then once you know it, the the the movement and the change that happens as a result of it is really, really interesting.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um let's go into what those what those four ideas are, things are.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think you call them axioms, but but I do.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's go into what those are.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and then after that we can get into a little bit into the detail as to what as to kind of what underpins each of them.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I um I just like to pick up on what you you were saying there.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's really important to emphasize that this is not, you know, there are no miracle sudden shifts.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there are, but in my case, it was a long process, a long time feeling certain pains, um, a long time asking myself questions.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's working in your subconscious all the time.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And at some point, if you allow your control network to let go, all your control to let go, these ideas can connect and bubble up.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there I was with my four axioms, yeah.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious to hear more what you think about it.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one was nothing can be that important.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it first ended there.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing can be that important, thinking there's so much pressure, and all these people telling you all these things that you have to do.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so nothing can be really that important apart from the health and the happiness of your loved ones and yourself.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I added that.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that is of prime importance, but otherwise, nothing can be so important.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: What are all these deadlines and all this pressure?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: The second one was money is a means, not a goal.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um this one yeah, it does not neglect that money is important, but we sometimes forget what money is important for.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in a corporate role earning a decent salary.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, we sometimes get caught in this spiral of by caught by the golden chain of you know earning the salary that we're used to.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So money is a means, not a goal.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the third one was focus on what you like, um, meaning focus on what matters to you.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: We go back a little bit to the first axiom there, focus on what matters to you, focus on what is important to you.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the last one, my favorite, is the only expectations you need to meet are your own.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I remember as I came to that one, I felt such freedom, such peace.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it still makes me laugh now.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, it opened up a whole new world.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in a way, it might seem obvious, but um, yeah, for me it was a big eye-opener.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned speaking to people that it's not that obvious at all.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um did you see this almost like direct connection between like having defined it and then it motivating your actions afterwards?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: That came later.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I remember, as I say, coming home, writing these down straight away.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Beforehand, I remember, I really remember the run, uh, the latter part of it, as I was repeating these four and putting them in order for myself.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I remember realizing only much later that I had been, I say now, priming my brain.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: So reminding myself on a daily basis.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I wanted to have them present somehow.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I wanted to be reminded of this daily, which is why I hung these uh axioms up.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't really know what that would turn into.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I had no plan of, you know, I'm gonna go off and study neuroscience and psychology.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it took, I was trying to think how long it took for really changes to happen.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm guessing now a year, maybe a year and a half.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: It changed, it it took a little time.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that strikes me about it is like I hear those four things and they resonate with with me personally.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like I could I'm glad they're not my they're not mine, right?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they need to obviously be, you know, personalized in order for them to resonate even further.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I can look at those and go, yeah, I actually think I agree with all of those statements.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious, as you've talked with other people about this, which I know that you have, um how universal did you expect them to be?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And how universal have they ended up being as you've spoken to others about it?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I was clear.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I knew they were the truth.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how I felt about them.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I knew they were the truth.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: They were, of course, my truth.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: They are my truth.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but at the time I thought, no, this is just so crystal clear.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I started talking about them at work to certain people, you know, of course, people in confidence, and I realized how some found them interesting.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's easy to agree to the first two.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh nothing can be so important apart from health and happiness.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, money is a means, not a goal.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody will agree to that on some level.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you really dig deeper, there might be, you know, more questions uh to ask.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I was not doing away with the importance of money.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Money is important.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: We maybe just need to ask ourselves what do we want the money for?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the house is not what's going to make us happy, but what is it?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: But so those were not the controversial ones, but the last two, um, focus on what you like.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds so it sounds so careless, doesn't it?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, if you tie it back into a focus on what matters to you, and then you realize, well, what matters to you is going to be your family and people that are important to you, it gets a little bit less controversial.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the one that completely made people disagree was really the last one.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: The only expectations you have to meet are your own.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: There often I couldn't get a conversation going because there was an immediate but, and no, it's not like that, and just think about what would happen if.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that okay, it's it's not so simple to just put these statements out there, but they need more explaining, especially the last one.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I tried to, and I still try to explain to people that it's not, this is not about being more individualistic, and this is not about disregarding others' needs and wishes, but it's about making a conscious choice of which wishes and which requests I bring into being my expectations of myself as well.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if I am a parent, I will expect myself to be a good parent, whatever that means for me.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I will expect myself to be a good colleague.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to be a good person, whatever good now means.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it is not that my expectations are going to be that everything falls into my lap.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: We are we are tribal animals.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we need other people to survive.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it is highly unlikely that we will start having expectations of ourselves and that all the things that matter to us disregard everybody else.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: It it doesn't really fit.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the nice thing that the last axiom does for me is it puts the responsibility back into my lap.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can decide actually whether I want to be a good cook in the house or not.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can decide if I want to be um, you know, whatever employment I might be in.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if I say yes, I want to be that, well then I take it and and and it's my expectation.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, this just meant total freedom.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in charge, I'm back in the driver's seat.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's almost like the core of um self-accountability.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's the other interesting thing as well, which I think underlies what you're talking about, which is that um when other when you're talking about other people's expectations, you actually don't know most of the time whether you've met other people's expectations.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: You do know whether you've met your own.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: So this actually gives you more accountability because if you define your own expectations really well, you can make a judgment as to whether you've met those other people.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing you know about whether you've met other people's expectations is what they choose to share with you.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we see this, I think, a lot in the workplace, whereby you feel like you're meeting other people's expectations and then over and then over time you discover that you've not, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, let's say you've got a lousy manager, right?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And your manager asks you to do a bunch of stuff, and you think you've done that stuff, and then at the end of the year they give you a bad, they give you a bad review.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, why?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because you didn't meet, you thought you met their expectations, but you didn't meet their expectations, right?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or the other way around.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, uh yeah, the other way around, you're in this uncomfortable situation of not meeting the needs, the needs, the the expectations of your manager, but you're not meeting those because you're managing your team differently.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because you manage your team in a way that's aligned with your values, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not the you know, very uncomfortable.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um, exactly.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing I think which is really interesting and almost which would suggest to me that it is almost universal, is that um I I think we sort of kind of do this anyway, in the sense that um if you are not meeting your own expectations, then that's actually a very uncomfortable place to be.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: As in if you're you could be doing a bunch of stuff for other people, but you're not fulfilling who you are, who you want to be, then you're not gonna be well, then you're not gonna be happy, you're not gonna be well, and all those kind of things.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so defining who you want to be, defining what you are so that you clearly understand that is really important.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we've worked with people, a lot of it is we'll ask them super, super simple questions.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, all right, well, if it's more like what do you want to be in the future, it'll be like, well, okay, what do you want to be when you grow up?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and sometimes people have a clear understanding of that.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: How do you want to live your life right now?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then a lot of times people don't actually have a good understanding of what that is, and it leads to this sort of malaise and general, general dissatisfaction because you're not meeting your own expectations because you've not clearly defined what your own expectations are.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you're living how you should live, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: This all this should and how Yeah, how uh what some external perception is of what uh of what you should be.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we probably all remember back at school, I'd certainly do, there were there were kids who were um who were kind of like trying to live a life that was almost set around what the world said they should be, or the the uh or maybe their parents thought they should be, or kind of what their status at their school kind of indicated they should be.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then there were always like these one or two kids who were like marching to the beat of their own drum and completely happy and completely comfortable in who they uh in who they were.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: They knew what they wanted to be and they were fulfilling that.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Whether that meant they were in this clique or that clique or whatever, didn't matter to them.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: They were just like that, they were going on their own journey, and those kids were always like 10 times happier than any than any other kids that were lead were were meeting kind of external expectations of what they were.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you personally it's interesting.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: You say, and I don't doesn't surprise me at all, but you say it's the most controversial in a very real sense.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's it's one of the most universal uh of all of all of them.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it's but it's hard to be able to like explain the nuances and the depth that sits behind that fourth one.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think what makes it universal and controversial is that it's like putting a mirror in front of somebody.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be incredibly uncomfortable.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're willing to look, well, I I mean it's eye opening, it's freeing, it gives you everything.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, very cool.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so you gone through this process.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you Have understood that for some people uh it feels really universal and uh for some people not so much.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I suppose the underlying truth here is that there is real benefit going through and understanding um the your whatever your own axioms are and then measuring yourself um against those things.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: But of course that can be difficult and sometimes it takes people um it takes people a while to get it to do.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like 25 years or so.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely and a run.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would I wanna I want to switch gears a little bit and then and talk about something else that you mentioned, and it just stuck with me.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was the first time, the first conversation that we that we had.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't even know if you remember it, but um, but there was a there was one comment that you had, and I wrote it down.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: You just said, we each have one brain and one brain only.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I kept thinking about that and I kind of took a couple of things from it myself, but I'm curious as to what that means to you.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh and just elaborate on that statement a little bit.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that you wrote that down.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it is something I really like saying because yeah, I I think it's very meaningful.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um where to start?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let me start with the fact that we have one brain and one brain only, and we don't think about that brain very much, and we treat it as if it were, as if we had some kind of a computer in our heads, right?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Which just works.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: It just works.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: You wake up in the morning and it's there.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we completely forget, neglect, never even think about the fact that this is a very fatty organ that consumes a huge amount of energy.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so think about what you eat, and needs to recharge every night for seven to nine hours, one says, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we've got this one thing in our heads which is much better than a computer.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually the most um, so so professors of mine said it's the most complicated structure in the known universe.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it has more neurons than there are stars in the known universe, and they're all connected and interconnected.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the really striking thing is I say it's better than a computer because it does not do only cognition, it does not only do rational thought, but it also has all the emotions.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, this fatty organ in our head that needs its rest, that needs to reboot, um, it actually does much more than a computer because it has emotions and cognition and they are so tightly connected.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And taking that further, and I may have said this, because I usually say that as a second thing when I say you have one brain and one brain only, what you do to your brain in one area of your life is going to affect all other areas.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: I could also say whatever happens to your brain in one area of your life or in one incident is going to impact other things that happen in your life.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And very simple examples here are if you don't sleep enough, you're not going to make decisions as quickly and as well.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to think as clearly, you're not going to be able to concentrate well.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: We've all experienced that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you don't uh hydrate enough, your brain starts shrinking.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't uh exercise, you don't have the benefits of uh, you know, certain brain processes happening that give you new ideas, that increase your creativity.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you are stressed at work, you're going to bring that home.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's in your head.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we like to behave as if we had this one brain that we carry to work and it does all these clever things, and then we come home and then we're a partner, a parent, you know.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that's just not how our brain works.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's one thing, it's one organ that does all of these things and that is affected by everything that happens to it.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And especially in the I'd say the old working environment, um, we we like to pretend as if we could switch it on and we do all these all these clever things.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we don't want to hear about uh relationships.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean by that simple interhuman work relationships.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't we don't consider at all that for a brain to function well, yes, it needs the sleep I mentioned, yes, it needs good food, because neurotransmitters are made from the things we eat and the things we have in our bodies, right?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we we completely forget that our brain also needs positive emotions and good relationships to be well.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in a way, we know this.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe some of us have heard horrible horrible stories in orphanages where children didn't have enough care, not enough touch, um, you know, not enough being spoken to, being loved, and these children had serious brain damage afterwards.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's very famous uh cases there.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we kind of know that.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: But this is also valid for us adults.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if we don't have positive emotions, healthy relationships, it affects how we feel.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: We understand that, it affects how we feel.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And since feeling happens in the brain and uses pathways that are also used when we learn or when we think, these pathways are affected.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So a good functioning brain needs much more than sleep, which is already a challenge for many.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, but we need positive relationships.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they are just as relevant as work, where we spend, I don't know, a third of our lives.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and as a last uh thing I'd like to add still is that we also just have one body, and we like to behave again as if brain and body are disconnected somewhere here at the neck.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there are now we know there are all these connections, right?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: We speak about the gut-brain connection, we speak about the heart-brain connection, the vagus nerve, um which runs all the way through our body.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that our gut, gut feel, why do we speak about gut feel?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's actually intuition, and intuition is not some kind of woo-hoo idea, but it's actually our brain reacting to experience and indications that come from our body, interoception is a big topic.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what we do to our bodies, and I mentioned running, exercise, which increases neuroplasticity, so it increases brain growth, it increases the ability to form new memories.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it simply allows our brain to become more plastic and to do more in new things.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's because we move our body, it's because we move our muscles.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's all this chemistry that goes up and changes how our brain's working.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, if you have one brain, one brain only, one body, one heart only, and how you treat all of that in one area of your life is going to affect all other areas.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Just it's so interestingly and succinctly put.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we could go into that in so much more detail, and maybe we'll have to have you back on another.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of my favorite topics.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, to talk about that just very specifically.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but let's uh as we kind of move on here, let's talk a little bit about the um hybrid and remote work issues specifically, because as you know, that's the main focus of this part.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I'm really curious.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, there's been this massive change, and we like to put it as like there was this huge social experiment that happened when the when the pandemic happened, and suddenly like in the lab.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, suddenly like a billion people that were used to working in one setting, we we took that fish out of water and we put it somewhere else, right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: So the as as that's happened and as people are still like working out in different ways than they ever were before, um what are you seeing in terms of emotional well-being at work?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: How is that being affected as we've shifted to more like remote and hybrid environments?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, there's a lot to that, isn't there?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Good and bad.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um being your own master versus drifting off into not knowing where and what to do.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think those are the extremes.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that at the beginning, apart from the circumstances of COVID, which of course weighed heavily, but the idea of working from home a lot more at the beginning, I think most people met with a lot of excitement because I think because it means total, because it means control.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Control, this is what our brain loves.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Lack of control, highly stressful.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: But here we were getting control over our day, um, masters of our day.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's mastery in there.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then the question started creeping up um control of what?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Mastery in what?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: What am I actually doing?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think that's where remote work then needs all this backing, this backing in positive relationships.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: There we are again.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: It can work very well for some if they have positive relationships either in their environment anyway, or maybe still connect very well with people remotely because they have good, um, you know, a good way to connect with people even if they don't meet them in the coffee corner.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Then I think this is where meaning came up a lot.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe maybe a shout out to Michele here.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't use the word meaning, but that's exactly what he's all about, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Finding the right person in the right job.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I doing what I'm actually doing?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So people who have backing in that, they will work remotely much better.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, expectations of life as well.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: We spoke about those as part of the axioms.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then knowing oneself and how one functions, not only in the ways that I speak about, meaning knowing your values, knowing what makes you tick, knowing how to use the strengths that you actually like, but knowing whether I'm a morning person or an evening person and getting rid of all these shoulds.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: One should get up at 5 a.m.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I struggled with that one for quite a while.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: But there's this idea that there are certain things that make you a better remote worker.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think that's where Billion Minds does a huge amount of work, helping people understand that there are ways that make you more efficient, but in the end you have to find your own path.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we give you elements, but you have to see how the puzzle pieces fit.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's the the people that manage that, so that have the all this backing and relationship meaning and so on, um, and then know how to fit their own meaning into a day, I think those those are the people that are the successful ones and happy.
• 33:02
  unknown: Yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: I could you it couldn't have been said better.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just a one of the things that is really clear about all of this, at least for us now, is just that um working remotely is not better or worse, but it is different.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people are starting to understand um what it means to be different, and the greater understanding that they uh that they have from it, um, the more work that they start to realize they have to do, right?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, in other words, if I'm working in a very different environment, I need to develop the skills to allow me to thrive in that environment.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we've been we've been increasingly using on the pod that term of the fish out of water, right?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because um, like like if you throw that fish out of water, unless it gets a sparrel a pair of lungs and some legs, it's not gonna last for very long.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the that's kind of the thing that we have to to really, really think through as we're as we're putting people into very different settings.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now um and excuse me, and if it wants to if it wants to grow a pair of legs and lungs, it has to do different work, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: It has to do something differently in his or her life.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, change is involved, and that's that's that's super important.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um all right, so you're helping organizations do all of this, you're helping individuals figure all of this out.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um and I love how you have like both an individual dynamic and a team dynamic.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: It actually um reminds me, uh particularly with the team stuff, of the of the conversation that we have with Bobby Wagner in the uh in the uh the groups discussion.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um very similar, uh very similar.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Very interesting one exploring.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um But what you're doing, I think for some of the leaders that listen to this podcast, it might feel like it's a bit of a luxury.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like it's like, yeah, I get that you know, people have to like what they do, and I get that that um, you know, teams have to be able to work, uh, you know, work really well, and that implies that there's an emotional uh connection to what you do.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: But all of this stuff sounds very uh, I don't know, it just sound it sounds very nice to have, almost like the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and and uh we're going into a recession and we just don't have any time for any of that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: We just need to make sure that everybody we've got enough people to make sure that we do the core of our business and all that other stuff that can wait.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: So what's your what's your answer to that?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is this sort of stuff just luxury or is it important?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, um the employees have reached the top level of Maslow's hierarchy, so they want to do work that matters.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: But um what for me is much more striking is that we are still resisting all this research that exists now.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's still fairly recent because brain imaging has not been around for 100 years, but let's say maybe 20, maybe a bit more, um, used in a way that really gives us data.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um we know now what the brains need to function well.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And with that knowledge, we can create work environments that will allow better outcomes.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants thinking out of the box, right?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I remember hearing that in my uh work environment so often.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you get thinking out of the box?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: You get it when you let people move, when you let people think, when you give them a bit of space.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's when you get these brilliant ideas, not when you stick them in the room and put more and more uh work on their desks doing what's the saying, do more with less.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you're not gonna get, you're not gonna get out-of-the-box creativity via that approach.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and by putting just more and more on people, and we haven't even spoken about stress, what stress does in the brains, because stress is made for uh not the work environment, the stress response in our brains is made for uh threat, for you know, get getting out of there, um, thinking sharply for a brief amount of seconds or minutes, and then you're on automatic pilot just doing what you've always done.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it might sound like a luxury, but if we finally open up to all this knowledge that science has given us on what makes our brains function at their best, yeah, then it's a then it's a must.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Then that's the environment you have to create if you want good functioning brains, full stop.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: The way that we've equated it to organizations where um is actually pretty simple, which is do you care if you if you care about solely, solely reducing costs and that's all you care about, then actually, yeah, you can you can you can abandon focus on any of these things, right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because what's the what's the business that has no costs?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the business that has no costs is the business with no people and no infrared or no anything.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, the business that doesn't exist, right?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have to reduce your prices as well.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: But if that's all you care about and you care about nothing other than that, then then ignoring stuff like this makes sense, right?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: But if you care at all about revenue and growing revenue, then in almost every business that you can think of, then an important uh element to a to supporting you grow revenue is um the human capital that exists inside your organization and particularly the creativity and the drive of uh and the innovation potential of those humans that are inside your organization.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if that forms any part of what you are as a business, then creating conditions that allow those things to thrive is how you're gonna get out of this.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so how organizations work their way through a recession is typically by yes, there is some focus on costs, but the focus on cost is on uh on the unnecessary things that you can get rid of that don't have an overall impact on the business.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're focusing on revenue, it's the things that have the greatest potential.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: So to a certain extent, we are not thinking about this in this way yet, and I completely agree with you.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: But when you are doing things which are proven, shown to impact, negatively impact creativity and innovation, um, what you're ostensibly doing is you're cutting into bone.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't feel like you're doing that, but that is ostensibly what you are doing.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so organizations that are looking to do this um and be hybrid or remote and so on, they need to be thinking creatively and innovatively how to get the best out of those people and how to drive innovation, for example, within a hybrid or remote uh or remote setting.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: So they may be able to cut costs actually by shifting more to a hybrid or remote environment, but they need to make sure of course that that they're getting the best out of those people and they're driving uh innovation and creativity.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that is, to your point, like creating the conditions in which both individuals and teams can thrive in those environments.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of like how how we explain it to organizations, but it is a it's it's a tough thing.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Perfectly said, it's it's a tough thing to explain sometimes uh to companies that are just looking purely at numbers and haven't made the connection, the important connection that you've made for us.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: I see what you're saying.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: So um, all right, let's finish up here.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, this is this is one of those discussions where it's like it it feels like it could have been two or three times as long as it actually has been.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully, uh hopefully people have got a lot out of it.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm curious.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, regardless of what happens in the next couple of years in terms of remote work environments, we're starting to see some organizations pull some people back, we're starting to see tweaks in uh in in hybrid environments.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: We think a lot of that is temporary.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're kind of betting against human nature if you're forcing people to reduce their flexibility.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um but regardless of what happens there, we're still gonna have a ton of employees who are working in unstructured and ambiguous environments and often that are separated from their colleagues.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um so what do you think that those employees need?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: What are the tools they need in order to be able to thrive in these types of unstructured, ambiguous environments?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think uh I like that question.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I think we've um we've touched upon a lot of these.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: But what what what people need to do is gain more awareness uh around what it means to be a human being.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what what do I as the human animal need to be well?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that is something that also I and many of us have neglected in the past because we think we are not animals.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, our brains have not changed much over the last hundred thousand years.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um think of what life was like then, and that's how our brains, that's the same pathways our brains use, right?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does what does our brain need to be well if we think of ourselves as the biological creature that we are?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then knowing that we, for instance, need personal relationships, um, positive relationships, obviously, that we need exercise, that we need um meaning in our lives, then we get into understanding what that means for us as individuals.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we go from the biological animal side of knowing all the things that we need to be well, to understanding what that means for me personally.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if I think of positive relationships, that might not mean that I have uh 50 friends, it might mean that I have one or two very close people that I meet every week, or for somebody else, it might mean that I just call my family regularly or my parents.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does a positive relationship look like for me?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: What are my values in that?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, meaning, what is meaningful for me?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: What are my purposes in life?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do I expect of myself?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding the biology, but then understanding what does it really mean for me as individual, because of course there's nobody else like me, um, or like you, or like any of the other people uh in the world.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: So being able to really put my finger on what it is that makes me tick, and then understanding how do I live more of that?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what can people do to find the relationships that they want, to live their values?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do they notice when they're off track?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: How do they notice when somebody has actually worked against what they stand for?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: How do they gain this awareness?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really what it's about: awareness and then tools on how to implement and to stay on track and what is meaning for me as a human being and as an as individual.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: Natalie, we will leave it there.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Really appreciate your time today.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know, as I say, our audience will have got an enormous amount out of it.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so thanks again.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoy this tremendously.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Paul.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Making remote work is brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Remote and hybrid is a new reality for organizations all over the world.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to support remote work, but entirely another to get strategic advantage from it.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds helps organizations make remote actually work by giving employees and managers the critical skills they need to thrive in a world that is not centered around the traditional office.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about how we can help your organization, visit us at billionminds.com or email us for a free organizational assessment at infobillionminds.com.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And be sure to mention making remote work in the subject line.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Billionminds.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Making remote work for everyone.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this podcast, make sure to give us a rating.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Go to ratethispodcast slash MRW.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are you one of the more than one billion people who work out of a formal office setting at least one day a week?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you are, and you want to keep doing it, it's essential that you can show your employer you have the skills to do it really well.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the Billion Minds Remote Work Certifications come in.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds offers certifications for employees and managers that help you grow your career without ever needing to set foot in an office.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, making remote work listeners can get 15% off the remote work professional or remote work manager certification.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just visit billionminds.com slash cert.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: That is billionminds forward slash C E R T and enter MRW at checkout.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds, making remote work for everyone.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Making Remote Work is brought to you by Billion Minds and produced by me, Matt Neal.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed the episode, please rate it, review it, share it, tell your friends.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.