Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #213 Jason Flom with Joe Bryan

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#213 Jason Flom with Joe Bryan · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: Beloved couple Joe and Mickey Bryan, who had no children
0:05
Speaker 1: of their own, instead dedicated their lives to educating the
0:09
Speaker 1: children of Clifton, Texas. But while Joe attended an annual
0:12
Speaker 1: high school principal conference one hundred and twenty miles away
0:15
Speaker 1: in Austin, tragedy struck on October fifteenth, nineteen eighty five.
0:20
Speaker 1: After Mickey did not arrive at her fourth grade classroom
0:23
Speaker 1: and could not be reached, her principal went to the
0:26
Speaker 1: Brian home with Mickey's parents and found a gruesome crime scene.
0:30
Speaker 1: Gunshots had spattered the walls, ceiling, and betting with Mickey's blood,
0:34
Speaker 1: and friends drove a distraught Joe Briant home from Austin.
0:38
Speaker 1: There were no witnesses, a missing gun and jewelry, a cigarette,
0:43
Speaker 1: but in a non smoking home, it looked like a
0:46
Speaker 1: burglary gone bat until Mickey's brother Charlie borrowed Joe's car
0:50
Speaker 1: while home for the funeral and allegedly found a flashlight
0:54
Speaker 1: in the trunk that tested positive for a few specks
0:58
Speaker 1: of the most common blood type TYPEO, same as Mickey's.
1:02
Speaker 1: The sheer absurdity of Joe racing from Austin to Clifton
1:07
Speaker 1: and back unseen, free of physical evidence, and without a motive.
1:11
Speaker 1: Was overcome by this one object that was found outside
1:15
Speaker 1: of the crime scene, in a car that was not
1:18
Speaker 1: in Joe's possession. Despite DNA testing, it cast doubt on
1:23
Speaker 1: the flashlights connection to the crime scene, and evidence that
1:27
Speaker 1: pointed squarely at a murderous police officer who later took
1:30
Speaker 1: his own life. Joe Brian had to wait thirty five
1:34
Speaker 1: long years for parole to finally set him free. This
1:38
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to wrongful
1:54
Speaker 1: conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me, of course, I'm your host.
1:57
Speaker 1: And two and a half years ago I read a
2:00
Speaker 1: profoundly troubling series of articles in The New York Times,
2:04
Speaker 1: originally published in pro public of my Pam Collof, about
2:07
Speaker 1: the astounding case of Joe Bran, who served thirty five
2:11
Speaker 1: years in prison in Texas for a crime there is
2:15
Speaker 1: a zero percent possibility that he ever could have committed.
2:19
Speaker 1: And you'll find out why as we go along. And
2:22
Speaker 1: it has haunted me ever since that day, and so
2:26
Speaker 1: I'm just deeply honored to have the man himself, Joe
2:31
Speaker 1: Brian all seventy nine years of age of him with
2:35
Speaker 1: us today on the show.
2:36
Speaker 2: So, Joe, you missed it a year? Oh did I
2:41
Speaker 2: miss a year? I'm oh, happy birthday. He's eighty years old.
2:45
Speaker 2: The congratulations.
2:47
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sorry you're here because of why you're here,
2:50
Speaker 1: but I'm very very happy and honored that you're here
2:53
Speaker 1: and with Joe is a renowned attorney Jesse Freud, thank
2:57
Speaker 1: you also for being here today on Raefel.
3:00
Speaker 3: Thank you for including me. Appreciate it.
3:03
Speaker 1: And I think this story is important for so many
3:06
Speaker 1: reasons because if anyone in the audist is thinking, well,
3:09
Speaker 1: that could never happen to me, If it could happen
3:11
Speaker 1: to Joe, it could happen to you. And what I
3:13
Speaker 1: mean by that is, Joe, you led not just an
3:16
Speaker 1: exemplary life, but really a rich fulfilling life up until
3:20
Speaker 1: this happened. And can you take us back all the
3:22
Speaker 1: way to your childhood and how you grew up in a
3:24
Speaker 1: small town in Texas, right.
3:26
Speaker 4: Grew up in Waco, grew up on a farm, ran
3:29
Speaker 4: animals and family, and headed absolutely wonderful childhood, tended church
3:35
Speaker 4: regularly and looking back, I had a very idyllic.
3:38
Speaker 1: Life, And how did you find your way into the
3:42
Speaker 1: field of education at which you excelled right becoming ultimately
3:47
Speaker 1: a really loved and revered educator in Clifton, Texas, the
3:53
Speaker 1: principal of the school. But how did you make your
3:55
Speaker 1: decision to get into education.
3:57
Speaker 4: I always liked school, but at our church I started
4:01
Speaker 4: playing the piano full time when I was thirteen, And
4:04
Speaker 4: our church and our song leader was my principal at school,
4:07
Speaker 4: and I had tremendous respect for him, and I guess
4:10
Speaker 4: you could say that he is instrumental in guiding me
4:14
Speaker 4: in that direction. So I've always lived and breathed and
4:18
Speaker 4: thought education. Mickey and I were unfortunate enough not to
4:22
Speaker 4: be able to have children. We both lived in breathed education.
4:27
Speaker 4: I helped her with our listening plans, with grading papers.
4:30
Speaker 4: We would discuss teaching objectives and gos and how to
4:34
Speaker 4: reach them. Then it was great.
4:37
Speaker 1: It sounds like it was. And from what I understand,
4:40
Speaker 1: the high school, middle and elementary schools were all on
4:43
Speaker 1: the same campus, and you were the high school principal
4:45
Speaker 1: and Mickey was the fourth grade teacher, and the two
4:47
Speaker 1: of you were obviously well known in the small town
4:50
Speaker 1: of Clifton, having had a hand to the education of
4:53
Speaker 1: so many of the people there. So your shared dedication
4:56
Speaker 1: had made you to revered by parents and students alike,
5:00
Speaker 1: which brings me back to my point that if a
5:02
Speaker 1: beloved figure like yourself, who was leading an upstanding, fulfilling life,
5:07
Speaker 1: if this could happen to you, then nobody out there
5:11
Speaker 1: is safe because it could happen to anyone. And that
5:14
Speaker 1: brings me to the next part of your story, which
5:16
Speaker 1: of course is October fourteenth, nineteen eighty five. Now you
5:19
Speaker 1: were out of town at an annual Texas Secondary School's
5:23
Speaker 1: Principals conference one hundred and twenty miles away in Austin, Texas,
5:28
Speaker 1: and this is a conference you who had attended for
5:30
Speaker 1: the previous fourteen years. Mickey had seen her parents Otis
5:33
Speaker 1: and Fira Blue that afternoon, as well as spoken to
5:36
Speaker 1: you as you graded papers and watched the cmas in
5:40
Speaker 1: your hotel room. The Country Music wards in Austin around
5:43
Speaker 1: nine pm that night. So now the following day, October fifteenth,
5:46
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, Mickey, who was usually the first one
5:49
Speaker 1: to arrive at school, never did. The elementary school principal,
5:54
Speaker 1: Rex Daniels, was obviously concerned so he called your home
5:57
Speaker 1: and got no answer, So, knowing that you were in Austin,
6:01
Speaker 1: he called Mickey's parents, Otis and Verra, who met him
6:04
Speaker 1: at your home with the spare Key and her mother.
6:08
Speaker 1: And this gives me the chills. Was the first to
6:10
Speaker 1: see the horrific and bloody crime scene in your bedroom,
6:16
Speaker 1: her daughter's body, Mickey's body laid across the length of
6:21
Speaker 1: the bed. Her nightgown was drawn up to her thighs,
6:23
Speaker 1: she was undressed from the waist down, and blood was
6:26
Speaker 1: spattered on the bed, the ceiling, and all four walls
6:30
Speaker 1: from apparent gunshots to the head and abdomen. And at
6:34
Speaker 1: this point Rex led the Blues ODIs Everra to the
6:38
Speaker 1: living room where they called the police. And then, of
6:40
Speaker 1: course Joe, you received that awful, awful news.
6:45
Speaker 3: So Joe is alerted to the discovery of her body
6:50
Speaker 3: and to what happened to her. While he is in Austin,
6:53
Speaker 3: several friends from Clifton drive down to get him because
6:56
Speaker 3: of the distraught state he was in, and drive him
7:00
Speaker 3: back to Clifton.
7:01
Speaker 1: So the Texas Rangers led this investigation, as they often
7:04
Speaker 1: did in rural towns like Clifton and Texas ranger Joe
7:07
Speaker 1: Wiley interviewed you, Joe, and you answered all the questions,
7:12
Speaker 1: telling them about the three fifty seven loaded with birdshot
7:15
Speaker 1: that you kept in the bedroom, as well as a
7:17
Speaker 1: cash box under the bed that usually held around one
7:20
Speaker 1: thousand dollars.
7:21
Speaker 2: Both of them were.
7:22
Speaker 1: Reported missing at the time, as were Mickey's watch, wedding band,
7:25
Speaker 1: and diamond ring. There were no witnesses, no neighbors reported
7:29
Speaker 1: hearing anything, no obvious signs of forced entry, no bloody fingerprints,
7:33
Speaker 1: no seamen found in the rake kit so there was
7:36
Speaker 1: very little for the rangers to go on. Oddly, a cigarette, though,
7:40
Speaker 1: was found on the kitchen floor. Now this is important
7:44
Speaker 1: because Mickey didn't smoke, and neither did you, Joe. It
7:47
Speaker 1: looked like a burglary gone bed. Now, Mickey's brother, Charlie Blue,
7:52
Speaker 1: was the vice president of an agrochemical firm out of Florida.
7:54
Speaker 1: He came to town with the investigator that the company
7:57
Speaker 1: kept on retainer, an ex FBI agent named Bud Saunders. Now,
8:00
Speaker 1: while Charlie was in town for Mickey's funeral, Joe lent
8:04
Speaker 1: Charlie his car and somewhere along the few days in
8:09
Speaker 1: which the car was in Charlie's possession. A flashlight with
8:12
Speaker 1: reddish brown specs was allegedly spontaneously found in the trunk
8:18
Speaker 1: of the.
8:19
Speaker 3: Car, and so Joe's car is out of his possession
8:22
Speaker 3: for a period of about five days, and then the
8:25
Speaker 3: flashlight is discovered when the car is in Joe's brother
8:28
Speaker 3: in law's possession. So the tipping point for and really
8:33
Speaker 3: the only point that supported Joe's arrest, was the discovery
8:36
Speaker 3: of the flashlight in his.
8:38
Speaker 1: Car, and later DNA testing cast out on whether this
8:41
Speaker 1: flashlight was ever even at the crime scene at all.
8:44
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, unbeknownst to Joe at the time, a search
8:48
Speaker 1: warrant of the car was executed and the flashlight was
8:51
Speaker 1: sent to the state crime lab. Now this was nineteen
8:54
Speaker 1: eighty five, so there was no DNA testing, just soroology,
8:57
Speaker 1: and the testing done at the time determined that some
8:59
Speaker 1: of us back actually were blood the most common blood type, oh,
9:04
Speaker 1: which also happened to be Mickey's blood type. Now, those
9:07
Speaker 1: speckles were found on an object that was not found
9:12
Speaker 1: at the crime scene, but in one of the couple's
9:15
Speaker 1: two cars, which was curiously not in Joe's possession. When
9:20
Speaker 1: the flashlight was allegedly found bind you if Joe had
9:24
Speaker 1: committed this crime, would he be using a flashlight to
9:28
Speaker 1: find his way around his own home to sneak up
9:31
Speaker 1: on his own wife. I mean, the state's theory is
9:35
Speaker 1: absolutely ridiculous, and this is just one of the many
9:39
Speaker 1: reasons why. So the car was not impounded, but rather
9:43
Speaker 1: released to Charlie Blue, who left it in Joe's driveway.
9:48
Speaker 1: So Joe has no idea that his car has been searched.
9:52
Speaker 1: And this flashlight is the crux of the state's case,
9:57
Speaker 1: supported by a few other pieces of extremely dubious evidence.
10:03
Speaker 3: So their case really rested on four facts. The first
10:07
Speaker 3: and most important was the discovery of the flashlight. The
10:10
Speaker 3: second was a pair of what they said were semen
10:14
Speaker 3: stained underwear discovered in Mickey and Joe's bathroom that at
10:18
Speaker 3: the time in the eighties, they had said tested presumptively
10:22
Speaker 3: positive for the presence of semen, and that was Joe's
10:27
Speaker 3: blood type.
10:27
Speaker 1: And I mean, it's his house, so to find what
10:30
Speaker 1: maybe Joe's bodily fluids in his own home doesn't really
10:36
Speaker 1: implicate him. I mean, it would incriminate an intruder, but
10:41
Speaker 1: it's his freaking house.
10:44
Speaker 3: Anyway continue, so it got flashlight underwear, a explanation that
10:49
Speaker 3: Joe had given regarding opportunities for when the keys to
10:53
Speaker 3: his vehicle were out of his possession. And then the
10:56
Speaker 3: final point was the discovery of money in the trunk
11:01
Speaker 3: of his car following its return to him from his
11:04
Speaker 3: brother in law.
11:05
Speaker 1: So the money that was initially reported missing from the
11:08
Speaker 1: cash box under the bed didn't turn up when the
11:10
Speaker 1: search of the car was conducted either, but rather Joe
11:14
Speaker 1: reported finding the cash after the fact. It was eight
11:17
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars of the usual one thousand, and
11:20
Speaker 1: Joe reported this to the authorities, remembering that he and
11:23
Speaker 1: Mickey had taken the money to go shopping in Waco,
11:27
Speaker 1: and somehow they were like, wait, maybe he's hiding something,
11:30
Speaker 1: And so they try to use this to show motive
11:33
Speaker 1: that Joe wanted to either steal from his wife right
11:38
Speaker 1: or that he initially hid the cash to make it
11:41
Speaker 1: seem like.
11:42
Speaker 2: There was a robbery.
11:43
Speaker 1: But neither of those theories holds any water whatsoever. I mean,
11:48
Speaker 1: he'd either be robbing himself because they're married, or if
11:53
Speaker 1: he wanted the crime scene to look like a robbery,
11:56
Speaker 1: why in the world would he then tell the authorities
11:59
Speaker 1: about discovering the money. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever.
12:04
Speaker 1: He would have just kept it to himself.
12:06
Speaker 3: And so the state's theory of the case was that
12:08
Speaker 3: Joe had slipped out of his Austin hotel, driven home,
12:13
Speaker 3: let himself into his house with his key, shot mickey
12:17
Speaker 3: with the gun that they had kept by their bed,
12:20
Speaker 3: cleaned himself up after getting her blood all over him,
12:24
Speaker 3: changed clothes and shoes, and drove back to his hotel
12:28
Speaker 3: room in Austin, cleaned up again, and made it to
12:32
Speaker 3: his morning teachers conference meeting. So that's the state's theory, right.
12:38
Speaker 1: And this is a fantastical theory on so many levels.
12:41
Speaker 1: No one saw him do any of these things, right.
12:45
Speaker 1: No one saw him leave the hotel, no one saw
12:47
Speaker 1: him stop for gas, and it was pouring rain that night,
12:50
Speaker 1: and no one saw him soaking wet coming or going.
12:53
Speaker 1: And Joe had a condition, right, immacula condition which meant
12:58
Speaker 1: that he couldn't drive at night anyway, you couldn't see
13:01
Speaker 1: to drive at night. And there was no physical evidence
13:03
Speaker 1: that any of the things that the police said happened
13:05
Speaker 1: actually happened. It's nonsensical and it wasn't just the fact
13:09
Speaker 1: that he was one hundred and twenty miles away and
13:12
Speaker 1: couldn't have realistically gone there and back without being seen
13:15
Speaker 1: unless he was some sort of ghost, but also the
13:18
Speaker 1: idea that he would have had to magically been able
13:20
Speaker 1: to make all this blood disappear from his body, and
13:24
Speaker 1: none of Mickey's blood got into the car either, that
13:26
Speaker 1: he allegedly drove back to Austin that night except for
13:29
Speaker 1: the phantom flashlight that if were to believe the state's theory,
13:32
Speaker 1: he just totally fucked up and absentmindedly left it in
13:35
Speaker 1: the trunk while he meticulously managed to scrub everything else
13:40
Speaker 1: like some master crime scene manipulator, right, and then not
13:44
Speaker 1: to mention he had no motive. In fact, the opposite
13:47
Speaker 1: is true. They loved each other very much and everybody
13:50
Speaker 1: knew it. It wasn't a troubled marriage as we sometimes see.
13:55
Speaker 3: And just to the point of motive really quick. The
13:58
Speaker 3: first trial was at actually reversed for an improper insinuation
14:03
Speaker 3: that there was any financial motive for Joe to kill Mickey,
14:07
Speaker 3: and his defense attorneys tried to respond to that inaccuracy,
14:11
Speaker 3: they were denied by the trial court the right to
14:13
Speaker 3: do so, and that's actually the reason why Joe's case
14:16
Speaker 3: was reversed the first time and why he was retribed
14:18
Speaker 3: so correct. There was never a motive established, and by
14:22
Speaker 3: the second trial, the state concedes that and talks to
14:26
Speaker 3: the jury panel about can you convict if we can't
14:28
Speaker 3: tell you what the motive is. So they were absolutely
14:32
Speaker 3: clear by the time the second trial rolls around that
14:35
Speaker 3: there was no motive because this didn't happen.
14:38
Speaker 1: Right, And you know, it gets worse when you start
14:41
Speaker 1: to see the way that they smeared his character, and
14:44
Speaker 1: of course it's a very contemporaneous story when we come
14:47
Speaker 1: to find out later that, in fact, the logical suspect
14:51
Speaker 1: and somebody who they knew to be the logical suspect
14:53
Speaker 1: at the time was in fact one of their.
14:55
Speaker 2: Own It was a police officer.
14:57
Speaker 1: Because we cannot leave out at this this is the
15:00
Speaker 1: small town of Clifton, Texas, and this was the second
15:03
Speaker 1: murder and unsolved for the time being, in a very
15:07
Speaker 1: short period of time.
15:08
Speaker 2: And of course we.
15:09
Speaker 1: Know how that works, right, That creates the pressure. And
15:12
Speaker 1: so Joe, do you mind telling us about that murder
15:15
Speaker 1: and how that played a role in your wrongful conviction.
15:20
Speaker 4: Judy Whitley, a high school student, was murdered. They didn't
15:23
Speaker 4: know who did it. There were suspicions, but no facts.
15:27
Speaker 4: People are alarmed that this could happen in our community
15:31
Speaker 4: to a high school child. So the police department, so
15:36
Speaker 4: to speak, is put under a lot of pressure to
15:39
Speaker 4: find whoever killed Judy Whitley. Well, my opinion, based on
15:43
Speaker 4: what I know now is that Dennis Dunlap did it.
15:47
Speaker 1: Jesse, this Dennis Dunlop character is a very troubling and
15:52
Speaker 1: profound example of how the sort of blue wall protects itself.
15:58
Speaker 2: So tell us about.
15:59
Speaker 1: That Dunlap and what his role was in these two cases.
16:04
Speaker 3: So, Dennis Dunlap was a member of the Clifton Police
16:07
Speaker 3: Department in nineteen eighty five, and he was originally a
16:12
Speaker 3: suspect in the Judy Whitley case, and that was because
16:16
Speaker 3: he had a connection to Judy's family and suspicious items
16:22
Speaker 3: found in his possession after he eventually leaves the police
16:25
Speaker 3: department in the direction of the then Clifton Police chief.
16:29
Speaker 3: And this was a situation where he tried to be
16:32
Speaker 3: very involved from the get go. I don't think that's
16:35
Speaker 3: very uncommon for actual perpetrators to try and find out
16:39
Speaker 3: as much information as they can about the crime that
16:41
Speaker 3: they did commit. He attracts understandable suspicion, and from what
16:47
Speaker 3: we can tell based on records at the time, he
16:49
Speaker 3: was encouraged by the then police chief to leave the
16:53
Speaker 3: community because of all of the suspicion growing around him
16:56
Speaker 3: and how it did look even back then that he
17:00
Speaker 3: was a good, strong suspect for the death of Judy Whitley.
17:04
Speaker 3: So he leaves the community.
17:06
Speaker 1: And we have so much evidence now that this Dunlap
17:09
Speaker 1: character he almost certainly killed miss Whitley, but also most
17:12
Speaker 1: likely was the murder in this case. He of course
17:15
Speaker 1: took his own life right and.
17:17
Speaker 3: After Dennis Dunlap commits suicide on the front page of
17:22
Speaker 3: the Clifton Record, the Clifton Police Department in nineteen ninety
17:25
Speaker 3: nine announces that they've solved the Judy Whitley case and
17:30
Speaker 3: that Dennis Dunlap was responsible. But Joe doesn't get access
17:34
Speaker 3: to that information beyond what's publicly reported until twenty twelve.
17:39
Speaker 3: It's not until late twenty fourteen twenty fifteen that we
17:45
Speaker 3: won going through old files discover that while he did
17:50
Speaker 3: leave the department, he did not leave the area. He
17:53
Speaker 3: was reported to be in the Waco Clifton area the
17:57
Speaker 3: day that Nicky was murdered. Law enforcement knew it, and
18:02
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety six, his ex wife gives an interview
18:05
Speaker 3: to the Texas Rangers as well as the then Clifton
18:10
Speaker 3: Police chief, and Dennis's ex wife says that Dennis did
18:14
Speaker 3: admit to her that he was with Mickey the night
18:17
Speaker 3: she was killed.
18:18
Speaker 4: Of course, when Mickey got killed, everybody was shocked. She
18:22
Speaker 4: was very she was very popular. I had grown up there,
18:31
Speaker 4: highly respected. People wanted an answer. They wanted to know
18:35
Speaker 4: who killed Judy Whitley, and they wanted to know who
18:37
Speaker 4: killed Nicky. And the police, under a great deal of pressure,
18:41
Speaker 4: I think, jumped on the first wagon they could jump on.
18:44
Speaker 4: They got what they wanted, that solved the case, so
18:48
Speaker 4: the pressure was off. Dennis destroyed Mickey's life and they
18:52
Speaker 4: destroyed my life.
19:05
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,
19:09
Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had
19:13
Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance
19:17
Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in
19:20
Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the
19:23
Speaker 1: criminal justice area. I mean, we could spend this entire
19:34
Speaker 1: podcast talking about all the different pieces of exculpatory evidence.
19:39
Speaker 2: There was a cigarette but found in the house. Neither
19:42
Speaker 2: Jone nor making smoked. Right.
19:43
Speaker 1: There was the fact that he was one hundred and
19:45
Speaker 1: twenty miles away. We've talked about that already.
19:47
Speaker 4: They can't get me there. We proved the model Joe
19:50
Speaker 4: mar Carr reproved ro about gasoline.
19:52
Speaker 2: Right.
19:53
Speaker 1: There was the fact that the flashlight wasn't found at
19:56
Speaker 1: the crime scene. It was found in the trunk of
19:58
Speaker 1: the car that wasn't in Joe's possession for several days.
20:01
Speaker 1: In fact, there was in the possession of somebody who
20:02
Speaker 1: we know light on the stand, the fact that there
20:04
Speaker 1: was another likely or even obvious suspect, and they pushed
20:09
Speaker 1: it under the rugged. There was the absence of any
20:11
Speaker 1: blood anywhere on Joe, around Joe in his car, you know,
20:15
Speaker 1: so supposedly this flashlight somehow was the only blood. So
20:20
Speaker 1: they wanted us to believe that he was holding the
20:22
Speaker 1: flashlight in one hand while shooting the gun with the
20:24
Speaker 1: other hand.
20:25
Speaker 3: In his own home, in his own right, because.
20:27
Speaker 1: He didn't know the way around his own little home.
20:29
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, it wasn't like he lived in.
20:30
Speaker 3: So of all the things, right, you need a flashlight
20:33
Speaker 3: in your own home.
20:33
Speaker 1: Right, But then he would have cleaned up every single
20:36
Speaker 1: trace of blood from everything, right, And then somehow or
20:40
Speaker 1: other spaced out and thrown this flashlight that had this
20:43
Speaker 1: tiny microscop And then we get to the blood spatter,
20:45
Speaker 1: right of all the junk sciences, and you know, we
20:48
Speaker 1: have a whole show devoted to junk science.
20:50
Speaker 2: You know. Blood spatter is a quote unquote.
20:54
Speaker 1: Scientific protocol which is used in courtrooms all over this
20:58
Speaker 1: country and as far back as Joe's trial eighty five,
21:00
Speaker 1: probably more than that. It is a nonsensical practice in
21:05
Speaker 1: which these charlatans posing as scientists pretend to be able
21:10
Speaker 1: to know by examining blood, as in Joe's case, where
21:14
Speaker 1: they just examined an empty room with blood all over it,
21:18
Speaker 1: and we're magically able to tell you what happened in there.
21:22
Speaker 1: You might as well just bring in a psychic.
21:24
Speaker 2: While you're at it.
21:24
Speaker 1: But this practice is taught in a forty hour course
21:28
Speaker 1: that I don't know if anyone's ever failed. You just
21:31
Speaker 1: pay the money, you go take your forty hour course.
21:33
Speaker 1: If you fail, they give you your certificate anyway. In fact,
21:36
Speaker 1: so it doesn't matter if you fail, and then you
21:38
Speaker 1: can go testify in court as a supposed expert. And
21:42
Speaker 1: so talk to us, Jesse, please about blood spatter and
21:48
Speaker 1: how it played a role in Joe's case.
21:51
Speaker 3: Specifically, bloodstain pattern analysis is the scientific study of the
21:56
Speaker 3: static consequences resulting from dynamic blood shedding events, and it
22:02
Speaker 3: involves detecting and describing and analyzing the size, shape, distribution, number, location,
22:09
Speaker 3: and pattern of bloodstains, as well as the nature of
22:13
Speaker 3: their target surfaces and the relationship among various stains at
22:17
Speaker 3: a particular scene. So as I understand it, and this
22:21
Speaker 3: is really mostly from preparing for the evidentiary hearing in
22:25
Speaker 3: Joe's case, is that bloodstain pattern analysis is based in
22:30
Speaker 3: accepted and proven sciences. The problem with it is what
22:35
Speaker 3: you said, which is the training of practitioners and using
22:40
Speaker 3: it properly within its correct limits. And that's what happened
22:45
Speaker 3: here with Detective Thorman, a purported practitioner whose training was
22:52
Speaker 3: a single forty hour course, and the practitioner admitted that
22:57
Speaker 3: this was the first major complex scene he had analyzed
23:02
Speaker 3: as a supposedly certified practitioner who between our evidentiary hearing
23:09
Speaker 3: did eventually recant and admit that his methodologies and application
23:18
Speaker 3: were mostly incorrect and admitted that then a lot of
23:23
Speaker 3: his conclusions in testimony was incorrect. And so, like we
23:27
Speaker 3: talked about at the beginning, what was the state's theory
23:30
Speaker 3: and why is bloodstain pattern analysis? Why was it important
23:33
Speaker 3: to the state securing a conviction twice against Joe? And
23:37
Speaker 3: it was used to explain why there was no physical evidence,
23:42
Speaker 3: like you said, what was connecting him. The flashlight was
23:44
Speaker 3: discovered in complete isolation, with no context away from the
23:48
Speaker 3: crime scene. His car was clean. There's never anything on
23:51
Speaker 3: him physically discovered, not in his hotel room, not on
23:54
Speaker 3: his person later And so the bloodstain pattern analysis proffered
24:00
Speaker 3: Detective Foreman was used to fill the very clear gaps
24:04
Speaker 3: in the state's case and to make an impossible theory
24:08
Speaker 3: of the case seem plausible.
24:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just want to quote from Pam Koloff's
24:13
Speaker 1: a wonderful article where she actually went to her great
24:16
Speaker 1: credit to Yukon, Oklahoma, where she participated in one of
24:20
Speaker 1: these classes that she paid six hundred and something dollars
24:24
Speaker 1: for and she talks about I'm just going to quote now,
24:28
Speaker 1: armed with calipers, scientific calculators and string, we measured bloodstains,
24:32
Speaker 1: plugged our data into equations, and tried to trace the
24:35
Speaker 1: trajectories of individual droplets back towards their source. As was
24:38
Speaker 1: true with pattern classification, there were many ways to get
24:41
Speaker 1: this wrong. Small deviations with the calipers resulted in markedly
24:45
Speaker 1: different results. Still, Griffin, who was the instructor, had us
24:49
Speaker 1: press forward. He said, quote, We're not really going to
24:53
Speaker 1: focus on the math and physics. It just kind of
24:55
Speaker 1: bogs things down. Uh, that's me editorialzing.
25:00
Speaker 2: What okay? He told us.
25:02
Speaker 1: She goes on to say at the outset, quote, I'll
25:05
Speaker 1: teach you which keys under your calculator to press. It's unbelievable,
25:11
Speaker 1: And then back to PAMs. It was upon this shaky
25:13
Speaker 1: foundation that Dorman had tried to reverse engineer the shooting
25:16
Speaker 1: at the Brian home.
25:18
Speaker 2: Looking over his nineteen eighty.
25:19
Speaker 1: Five report one night back at my hotel, I could
25:20
Speaker 1: see where his analysis went awry. According to his report,
25:23
Speaker 1: he believed he was determining the alleged height from which
25:26
Speaker 1: the shots were fired, a conclusion his data could not yield.
25:30
Speaker 1: I began to wonder if his assessment of the flashlight, too,
25:32
Speaker 1: was faulty when he asserted that the blood on the
25:34
Speaker 1: lens was backspatter from a close range shooting. Now it
25:38
Speaker 1: goes on, because they teach you in this class as
25:42
Speaker 1: well how to present testimony as if you're an expert.
25:46
Speaker 1: Its basically teach you how to act in court, to
25:49
Speaker 1: pretend better that you actually know what you're talking about,
25:53
Speaker 1: and to be more persuasive, and how to be able
25:56
Speaker 1: to dodge questions from you know, quality defense attorney. I mean,
26:01
Speaker 1: let's face it, not too many of these blood spatter
26:03
Speaker 1: people come in and testify for the defense. So they're
26:07
Speaker 1: teaching you, in essence, how to frame people. And that's
26:11
Speaker 1: exactly what they did in Joe's case, and it makes
26:14
Speaker 1: me sick.
26:15
Speaker 3: It's, I think, a perfect example of a situation where
26:20
Speaker 3: juris trust the prosecutors in their community and they trust
26:26
Speaker 3: law enforcement, and Joe's case, sadly isn't the only example
26:30
Speaker 3: of this. When prosecutors go to juris and paint a
26:35
Speaker 3: picture using, like Joe said, fabricated evidence and an impossible
26:40
Speaker 3: narrative and show them awful photos of a crime that
26:43
Speaker 3: clearly did happen and ask them to say, okay, either
26:47
Speaker 3: don't hold somebody responsible or hold somebody responsible. Right, and
26:51
Speaker 3: especially in the context of what this community had just
26:54
Speaker 3: gone through, like you just said, with the loss of
26:56
Speaker 3: Judy Whitley just a few months prior, and then the
26:59
Speaker 3: loss of Mickey and her brother in particular, paid a
27:02
Speaker 3: special prosecutor to prosecute Joe. And so you've got somebody
27:06
Speaker 3: who's got a financial incentive to get a conviction, and
27:10
Speaker 3: you have a jury who's being told about that financial arrangement, right,
27:14
Speaker 3: that knows this is what the victim's family paid for.
27:18
Speaker 3: This is clearly what they believed what jury was going
27:22
Speaker 3: to let him walk out of a courtroom. There just
27:25
Speaker 3: wasn't in any jurisdiction in nineteen eighty five, eighty six,
27:28
Speaker 3: and eighty nine that just sadly wasn't going to happen.
27:31
Speaker 1: So with this nonsensical blood spatter analysis and this flashlight
27:36
Speaker 1: that wasn't even found at the crime scene as the
27:38
Speaker 1: big smoking gun, and then the assassinations on his character,
27:43
Speaker 1: it was a almost a foregone conclusion. So can you
27:47
Speaker 1: take us back to that moment when the judge read
27:49
Speaker 1: the verdict.
27:51
Speaker 4: Well, it's very unreal. You already know your life has
27:54
Speaker 4: changed forever because of everything that's already happened. But then
27:57
Speaker 4: now people are going to look at you like you
28:01
Speaker 4: and I'm going to end up in prison. There's something
28:04
Speaker 4: I didn't do, and I'm gonna have to fight every
28:07
Speaker 4: day to maintain my personal integrity. You think, how can
28:12
Speaker 4: people do this? But what is really troubling is that
28:17
Speaker 4: you know that people know that what they've done is
28:19
Speaker 4: not right, and they don't have any trouble doing what's wrong.
28:39
Speaker 4: Everything that happened really hurts. I just don't go there
28:44
Speaker 4: very often. But God has a purpose for each of us.
28:50
Speaker 4: And when I first went to prison, I was very
28:53
Speaker 4: angry with God and did not go to church and
28:58
Speaker 4: didn't tell anybody I was a Christian or even played
29:00
Speaker 4: the piano. And after I'd been there, probably eight weeks,
29:06
Speaker 4: the chaplain told me that I understand that you play
29:09
Speaker 4: the piano and that you're a Christian. And I said,
29:12
Speaker 4: how do you know I haven't told anybody. Well, he
29:17
Speaker 4: wanted to hear me play the piano, so we went
29:19
Speaker 4: into the chapel and I said, what do you want
29:21
Speaker 4: to hear, and he told me, and I played the
29:23
Speaker 4: songs when we went back to the chapel and he
29:27
Speaker 4: asked if I would play the piano for the chapel
29:29
Speaker 4: services and I said, no, I will not, And I
29:33
Speaker 4: told him I was mad at God, and I said,
29:36
Speaker 4: but how did you know that I was a Christian,
29:39
Speaker 4: that I played the piano? And he comes out with
29:41
Speaker 4: a letter from my high school principal when I grew up,
29:45
Speaker 4: who led the singing at the church where I play.
29:48
Speaker 4: And he told Chaplain Pickett, I've done Joe since he
29:52
Speaker 4: was five. I believe he's innocent. I know he's hurt,
29:56
Speaker 4: and if you can get him to play the piano
29:58
Speaker 4: for your church services, you'll be blessed and it will
30:01
Speaker 4: help him. And I told him I'm not playing, and
30:05
Speaker 4: that wise Chaplain told me, well, you think about it
30:09
Speaker 4: tonight and you let me know in the morning. I
30:13
Speaker 4: got zero sleep that night because God was all over me, saying,
30:20
Speaker 4: you so to speak, Who do you think gave you
30:22
Speaker 4: that skill? I did? I want you to use it
30:25
Speaker 4: for me. So the next morning I called Chaplain Picket
30:30
Speaker 4: and told him I would play for the chapel services,
30:33
Speaker 4: and he says, good, we at choir practice today at
30:35
Speaker 4: two o'clock and I was in and busy for the
30:38
Speaker 4: rest of my stay. So we can do anything through Christ.
30:42
Speaker 4: And when I asked God for peace, he gave me peace.
30:48
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that you found that, and I'm glad
30:52
Speaker 1: you're here today because you are a living testament to
30:56
Speaker 1: the human spirits.
30:57
Speaker 2: So yeah, so then here we are.
31:01
Speaker 1: You've now been sentenced to ninety nine years in prison. Right,
31:04
Speaker 1: I love life sentence because no one's ever lived that long,
31:07
Speaker 1: and you know you weren't going to be the first.
31:11
Speaker 1: Again to me, the idea that you're still here with
31:15
Speaker 1: you know, three brain cells to rub together and be
31:17
Speaker 1: able to sit up right and have a laugh and
31:20
Speaker 1: have a smile on your face, it's it's inspiring. It's
31:25
Speaker 1: you know, it's what I'll tell you right now. For
31:27
Speaker 1: those of us that do this work, it's what drives
31:30
Speaker 1: us forward is knowing that there are people like you
31:33
Speaker 1: who have this otherworldly uh uh. You know, courage is
31:38
Speaker 1: the best way I can and grace.
31:40
Speaker 3: And perseverance of of course, you know, when I pick
31:42
Speaker 3: up this case in November of twenty thirteen as a
31:45
Speaker 3: law student, it's my whole life, like my whole life.
31:49
Speaker 3: Joe had been fighting this fight, and it's an unbelievable
31:54
Speaker 3: set of strength and endurance to maintain your innocence and
31:59
Speaker 3: keep fighting for that period of time. It's unbelievable. And
32:02
Speaker 3: most people give up, right, we know, innocent people plead guilty,
32:06
Speaker 3: and innocent people end up giving up just to move
32:09
Speaker 3: on with their lives. And the fact that he hasn't,
32:12
Speaker 3: I think just speaks so much to the character that
32:14
Speaker 3: everybody in that community knows he has and knew he had,
32:18
Speaker 3: and just his spirit.
32:20
Speaker 1: Which brings us to that long, long fight, the post
32:23
Speaker 1: conviction litigation, and all the things that were discovered along
32:26
Speaker 1: the way, not to mention what was already known, which
32:29
Speaker 1: should have kept them from ever even bringing Joe to trial.
32:32
Speaker 1: I mean, the sheer breadth of this, it's insane to
32:36
Speaker 1: believe that none of it was enough to spring him
32:39
Speaker 1: out of there with the state acknowledging his actual innocence.
32:43
Speaker 1: And I'm going to just list some of it now, right, So,
32:46
Speaker 1: no one saw Joe leave the hotel in Austin, and
32:50
Speaker 1: no one saw him back in Clifton. I mean, it's
32:52
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty mile journey he would have had
32:55
Speaker 1: to stop for gas at some point, right, And then
32:57
Speaker 1: the mileage on Joe's car proved that he did not
33:00
Speaker 1: make the journey back and forth to Austin. According to
33:03
Speaker 1: the state's own admission, he had no motive to kill Mickey,
33:06
Speaker 1: so all that nonsense about the cash or stage robbery
33:09
Speaker 1: was just nonsense. And then Dennis Dunlap, Okay, the main
33:14
Speaker 1: suspect in Judy Whitley's murder who was forced out of
33:18
Speaker 1: Clifton PD as a result, and who they laid blame
33:22
Speaker 1: for it on after he killed himself, But only after
33:24
Speaker 1: he killed himself. His wife told the rangers and the
33:28
Speaker 1: Clifton Police chief in nineteen ninety nine that Dunlap admitted
33:32
Speaker 1: to being with Mickey on the night she was killed.
33:34
Speaker 1: I mean, what the fuck? And he doesn't get to
33:37
Speaker 1: learn about that from nineteen ninety nine until twenty and
33:40
Speaker 1: twelve when they finally released these documents to him. So
33:44
Speaker 1: thirty five long years roll by with no one acknowledging
33:48
Speaker 1: his innocence because of this flashlight that wasn't even found
33:52
Speaker 1: at the crime scene, but rather was found in the car,
33:56
Speaker 1: that wasn't in Joe's possession or control. Rather it was
33:59
Speaker 1: in the possession of the man that brought an investigator
34:03
Speaker 1: to his own sister's funeral and paid a special prosecutor
34:08
Speaker 1: to make sure that they nailed Joe but Jesse. DNA
34:12
Speaker 1: testing was finally done on that flashlight in twenty eighteen,
34:16
Speaker 1: testing that wasn't available in nineteen eighty five. It hadn't
34:19
Speaker 1: been invented yet. What did they find out? Yeah?
34:22
Speaker 3: So I think the simplest way is the question that
34:25
Speaker 3: was asked at the evidentiary hearing, which is, can the
34:27
Speaker 3: State of Texas prove that Mickey's DNA is on that flashlight?
34:31
Speaker 3: And the answer to that question by the state's analyst
34:33
Speaker 3: was no. There's two results from a twenty eighteen set
34:37
Speaker 3: of DNA testing. One was on the lens of the
34:40
Speaker 3: flashlight that was an inconclusive result, and then there was
34:43
Speaker 3: a DNA test of the swab from the handle and
34:45
Speaker 3: the power button of the flashlight that excluded him and Mickey. So,
34:50
Speaker 3: does modern testing prove that Mickey's DNA is on that flashlight?
34:53
Speaker 3: And the answer to that is now.
34:54
Speaker 1: So there was Type O blood, the most common blood type,
34:57
Speaker 1: on this flashlight, but not necessary from the crime scene.
35:01
Speaker 3: That would be our position. The state's position would obviously
35:04
Speaker 3: be different, but modern testing cannot corroborate the state's position.
35:10
Speaker 1: And add that conclusion to the already patently ridiculous theory
35:13
Speaker 1: of this crime and what was discovered about Dunlap, and
35:16
Speaker 1: it's all just becomes very hard to swallow that it
35:20
Speaker 1: took this long for you, Joe, to finally be free,
35:24
Speaker 1: but all appeals were exhausted, and then despite an exemplary
35:28
Speaker 1: disciplinary record, you're involvement in the chapel, playing piano, tutoring,
35:33
Speaker 1: the parole board denied you seven times. Is that right?
35:36
Speaker 3: Yeah?
35:37
Speaker 4: Seven times?
35:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, So your patience has tried and tried and tried,
35:40
Speaker 1: but finally, Joe, finally you were freed just a short
35:46
Speaker 1: while ago.
35:47
Speaker 2: And what was that like?
35:49
Speaker 4: I mean, well, there are many tears. You're so thankful
35:54
Speaker 4: to be out and it's beautiful to see people who
35:58
Speaker 4: care for you and love youaiting for you out there
36:00
Speaker 4: when you get outside. Jesse was one of those waiting,
36:08
Speaker 4: along with my family and other people who were interested
36:10
Speaker 4: in in my case. A lot of people could not
36:17
Speaker 4: be there, and it was understandable.
36:19
Speaker 3: It was right at the beginning of Corona a couple
36:23
Speaker 3: of weeks after the world shut down.
36:25
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely wonderful though to be able to hug your
36:29
Speaker 4: family and to get into the vehicle and go home.
36:35
Speaker 4: The young lady that we're watching right now is very instrumental.
36:41
Speaker 3: Well, and it's not definitely not only me, Walter.
36:44
Speaker 4: I know that, I know that Walter and Leon and
36:49
Speaker 4: Allison and Shay and Allen.
36:52
Speaker 3: Joe has wonderful parole lawyers. Yes, again, Joe is not
36:57
Speaker 3: free like we just talked about because the courts did
36:59
Speaker 3: their thing. Joe's free because thankfully he had parole lawyers
37:04
Speaker 3: that were able to explain the circumstances to the parole
37:07
Speaker 3: board in a way that clearly made sense. And so
37:11
Speaker 3: they are really the heroes.
37:13
Speaker 4: Thank God, I'm home. My brother and his wife have
37:16
Speaker 4: provided a home for me, and I am just fabulously
37:21
Speaker 4: grateful and it's encouraging, very humbling what others have done
37:27
Speaker 4: to help me.
37:29
Speaker 1: I know I speak on behalf of all of your
37:31
Speaker 1: supporters when I say that we wish you every blessing
37:35
Speaker 1: that life has to offer. I hope you live to
37:38
Speaker 1: be one hundred and eighty and that you can enjoy
37:43
Speaker 1: every moment of it. And we now have the closing
37:47
Speaker 1: segment of the show, which I think our audience has
37:50
Speaker 1: come to really expect and appreciate. I know it's my
37:53
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show because this is the part
37:56
Speaker 1: where again I thank you too amazing human beings, Jesse
38:01
Speaker 1: Freud and Joe Brian for being here with me and
38:05
Speaker 1: sharing your stories. And then I get to turn my
38:10
Speaker 1: microphone off and leave yours on for a segment of
38:13
Speaker 1: the show we call closing arguments, and it works like this.
38:15
Speaker 1: We're going to start with Jesse. We're going to save
38:17
Speaker 1: well due respect, Jesse. We're going to save the best
38:19
Speaker 1: for last. The floor is yours, so Jesse, please just
38:22
Speaker 1: tell us whatever you got and then pass the mic.
38:25
Speaker 2: Off to Joe.
38:26
Speaker 3: I almost feel so unoriginal because I think I'm going
38:28
Speaker 3: to end where you started, which is what can listeners
38:33
Speaker 3: learn from what happened to Joe? And obviously the injustice
38:38
Speaker 3: also that happened to Mickey, which and that still remains.
38:41
Speaker 3: The wrong person is still being legally held accountable for
38:46
Speaker 3: killing Mickey, and so that is a horrible injustice, and
38:52
Speaker 3: so what can the public learn from that? And I
38:55
Speaker 3: think the first thing is what you said, which is
38:57
Speaker 3: if this can happen to Joe Brian. This can happen
39:00
Speaker 3: to anyone. And I remember as a law student when
39:03
Speaker 3: I became fascinated with this case before I even got
39:06
Speaker 3: to know Joe. It really struck me that this is
39:09
Speaker 3: a case that can make people think that the problems
39:12
Speaker 3: of the criminal justice system, if they think those don't
39:15
Speaker 3: apply to them, after learning about what happened to Joe,
39:18
Speaker 3: they should think that these things apply to them. And
39:21
Speaker 3: so I hate that the injustice that remains for the
39:25
Speaker 3: wrong person being held accountable for Mickey's murder, and I
39:28
Speaker 3: hate that Joe's life was likewise stolen from him. But
39:32
Speaker 3: I hope what we can all as a society learn
39:35
Speaker 3: from that, which is cops and prosecutors are people too,
39:39
Speaker 3: and when they come before twelve random folks in a
39:42
Speaker 3: jury and they're asking members of the community to do something,
39:46
Speaker 3: have the courage to think critically about what you're being
39:50
Speaker 3: asked to do and truly hold the state to their burden.
39:54
Speaker 3: I think our community can do what sometimes and sadly
39:57
Speaker 3: cops and prosecutors don't do, which have the courage to
40:01
Speaker 3: say this isn't enough, and we're not going to have
40:04
Speaker 3: two loss of lives, because that's what we've got here.
40:06
Speaker 3: Mickey's life was taken and Joe's life was taken, and
40:10
Speaker 3: that is preventable. This was preventable. Our courts had an
40:14
Speaker 3: opportunity to fix it and refuse to do so. And
40:17
Speaker 3: so America can learn something from what happened to Joe
40:20
Speaker 3: and Mickey. It's go be good jurors, hold the state
40:24
Speaker 3: to their burden, and have the courage to fight injustice
40:28
Speaker 3: from the jury box.
40:30
Speaker 2: Joe, over to you, number one.
40:32
Speaker 4: I still respect law enforcement. I still respect courts and
40:39
Speaker 4: judges and district attorneys. Well, what I want them to
40:43
Speaker 4: do is to work for justice, not conviction. If conviction
40:50
Speaker 4: is a part of that justice, then so be it.
40:53
Speaker 4: But if you're proven later that your decision was wrong
40:57
Speaker 4: after a conviction, be man or woman enough or judge
41:02
Speaker 4: enough or whatever enough of a person say hey, we
41:05
Speaker 4: mess this up and we need to correct it. Don't
41:08
Speaker 4: just stick your head in the sand and say that's
41:10
Speaker 4: not what I want to hear, and we're not going
41:13
Speaker 4: to change our opinion. Because even in our discovery hearings,
41:19
Speaker 4: the judge had them test the flashlight again for the
41:23
Speaker 4: third or fourth time, and the state's lab came back
41:28
Speaker 4: with the report was and he said, there's two DNA
41:33
Speaker 4: profiles on the flashlight. One is not Mickey Brian and
41:38
Speaker 4: one is not Joe Brian. So whose DNA is on
41:40
Speaker 4: that flashlight? And that was to me a key point
41:46
Speaker 4: in evidence they used against me, just like they said
41:50
Speaker 4: they're seemen on the underwear, and then when they were
41:53
Speaker 4: DNA tested, there's no seeming there. So who's lying? When
41:57
Speaker 4: did the last start? Who did it and who backed
42:00
Speaker 4: up who in protecting that person's decision. Why are we
42:04
Speaker 4: not looking for the truth. And if you think it
42:07
Speaker 4: can't happen to you in America, you are wrong. And
42:11
Speaker 4: it doesn't happen just to black people either. It happens
42:14
Speaker 4: to white people too, and people like Jesse and Walter
42:18
Speaker 4: in the Texas Innocence Project, and you, Jason, who worked
42:21
Speaker 4: with the Innocence people. If it weren't for you, we
42:24
Speaker 4: would have no hope. I sleep well at night because
42:29
Speaker 4: I'm innocent and I'm honest. I'm not perfect. But Micky
42:35
Speaker 4: was my wife, and I loved her, and I cherished her,
42:42
Speaker 4: I respected her, and I miss her, and I wish
42:48
Speaker 4: her family we'd be just as concerned about who actually
42:52
Speaker 4: killed her as we are, and I wish they. You know, hey,
42:56
Speaker 4: look maybe we were misled, maybe we were used in
43:00
Speaker 4: that conviction process that somebody else won't it. We can
43:05
Speaker 4: do anything through Jesus Christ. I'm still living with him
43:10
Speaker 4: every day, and I'm still relying on him to give
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Speaker 4: me the strength and the hope, and I still don't
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Speaker 4: having trouble going to sleep at night.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm.
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Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the
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Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.
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Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn,
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Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis.
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Speaker 2: The music on the.
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Speaker 1: Show, as always, is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
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Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful
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Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for
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Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.
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Speaker 4: The Man, Why the Land in the World,