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Career Transitions & Advancement for the Senior-Level Epidemiologist · The SHEA Podcast

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to our Leadership and Management Podcast Series brought to you by the Society for Healthcare Epidemiology of America, Shay, promoting the prevention of healthcare associated infections and antibiotic resistance and seeking to advance the field of healthcare epidemiology and antibiotic stewardship.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Chrissy Woods and I will serve as your moderator.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Shay is excited to launch this episode of the podcast series entitled Career Transitions and Advancement for the Senior Level Epidemiologist.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast will focus on next possible career steps for a senior level epidemiologist.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: We will cover some of the various paths that a career at this level can take, including hospital system level leadership, transition to the C-suite leadership, or a combination role, formal and informal consulting roles, and the importance of serving as a mentor.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to introduce our two speakers for today.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: First, we have Dr.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: James Steinberg.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Steinberg has been in the division of infectious diseases at Emory University School of Medicine for over 33 years.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: More than two decades, he served as a hospital epidemiologist at Emory University Hospital Midtown.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: In 2006, he was also appointed chief medical officer at that institution and served as the CMO for over 16 years.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Steinberg also served two terms on the Shea Board of Directors and is Shay's liaison today.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're also joined by Dr.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Stephen Weber.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Weber is executive vice president and chief medical officer for the University of Chicago Medicine Health System.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: In this capacity, he oversees clinical quality, patient safety, access and value for the academic health system.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: He previously served as chief healthcare epidemiologist and medical director of infection control at the University of Chicago Medicine, a professor of medicine in the section of infectious diseases and global health.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: He continues to see patients in both the inpatient and ambulatory settings.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you both for joining us today.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much, Christy.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a very big conversation and a lot to get into, so we'll just jump right into it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to ask you both about your current roles.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us a little bit about how you got there and if you imagined that you might have this role at the outset of your career or even mid-career?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Steibri, can we start with you?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I had no plans on becoming a chief medical officer.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: In 2006, when I had been serving as hospital epidemiologist for about 16 years, our assistant chief medical officer pat me on the shoulder and asked if I would be interested in a newly restructured hospital CMO position.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: At that time, Emory was undergoing a major reorganization at the system and hospital level and was really trying to ramp up its quality infrastructure.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think my leadership in hospital epidemiology, which is really the prototype of a quality program in a hospital, played a role in my selection.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time I was mid-career, 52 years old.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it was if I was going to make a move, it was the time, so I jumped on it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Weber?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a similar pathway uh for me, I was working as a faculty member in infectious diseases and helping to run the infection prevention program.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And by nature of the work, I think it's probably a similar experience for Jay.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: You end up with a lot of visibility in the in the health system, both clinically as infectious disease docs.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: We consult on virtually everyone's patients, and then uh administratively in the the leadership role in infection prevention, uh, a high degree of quantitative skills, which again I think is common across our specialty, really I think brings visibility to these roles.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it moved me into more of a quality role, and then ultimately through medical staff leadership, and then also during a period of transition and a redesign of the chief medical officer role, I was asked to serve in that capacity.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's now been 12 years ago, and as our as our system has grown, the job has grown with it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, the other thing that I think influenced me is the opportunity to have a greater impact on the hospital organizational level.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes as epidemiologists, we're frustrated, but we we see things that we think would be beneficial to the organization and we don't have that effect or arm.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think to be in a position to be to be more at the table with those decision makings, I think that influenced the decision as well.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's a great point, Jake, because it's the, I mean, we're we're sort of trained to look at problems and try to fix them.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the opportunity to fix on an even larger level is is one part of it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also reminded, too, that I I still see my administrative and and leadership role as part of my clinical care.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the same way that when I first submitted promotion documents when I was doing infection prevention, I moved all the infection control stuff into my clinical service because that that's how I viewed it.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a sidelight, it wasn't an administrative supplement in the last box on the promotion form.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was really central to what I'm doing.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I still see that today.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one of the ways that infectious disease docs, infection preventionists, and healthcare epidemiologists really make a big impact in these roles.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think both of you are highlighting things such as the fact that there are a lot of qualities that healthcare epidemiologists have that make them suited to various types of roles, including roles in administration.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that for some it's sometimes obvious the path that you might follow, the sort of pursuit towards maybe being a healthcare system epidemiologist, but there are certainly other roles outside of that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering if you can maybe expand on some of the roles that you've seen people in senior hospital epic take.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some paths that may not be quite so obvious to others that might be listening.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'll take that one to start.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's I I never want to diminish or reduce the for the folks who elect to you know serve as a leader in infection prevention program for their entire career.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's a noble pursuit and one where you can have a ton of impact over years or even decades.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: But that said, for folks who either aspire to or retreat to other actions or roles, I remember one of our senior colleagues when I was more junior saying, boy, when you're doing the third outbreak, you know, the same outbreak for the third time, you're looking to kind of move into other pastimes.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so to that end, though, I think one of the great things, again, about our specialty and about our training and expertise is the broad applicability.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, on the podcast here, we have two people who went the direction of uh hospital and health system leadership.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the opportunity to bring those same skill set, whether it's into advocacy or policy, that was another passion of mine for many years.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um I helped chair the uh government affairs committee at SHA, really gives opportunity, again, those saying the quantitative skills, the problem-solving nature of it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a matter of whether you're going to stay in that same area around infection prevention, or if you want to broaden out and apply those skills into other dimensions.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's, you know, the calling and the and the possibility that folks have when they build up, again, the kind of skills that we have.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree with what Stephen was saying.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that the chief quality officer is another position that I think is a natural fit.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Back in our organization, one of our chief quality officers was a hospital epidemiologist.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on some of your hardwiring and your skill set.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, chief informatics officer is another role that might be good for or for somebody who is an epidemiologist or as a patient safety officer is another role that I think our skill set leads to.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I think in general, I think hospital epidemiologists are great fits for senior hospital leadership positions.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And Stephen alluded to some of those reasons, but you know, we think broadly and we put patient safety first.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Be honest with you, it took me a while to appreciate this, especially when I was onboarding some other senior leaders, is that I think we have more intimate knowledge of the hospital than most others.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: We are on first name basis with the leaders of not only the clinical departments, but the hospital departments.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: We know the pedophilities management.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: We've been to our environmental services departments, we've kind of snooped around the morgons of the hospital.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: We know our nursing leaders, we we have more intimate knowledge of hospitals and how hospitals work than most other clinicians.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're also pretty well respected and viewed as excellent clinicians, and I think those clinical stripes, I think, are important to be respected.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: But we're respected, and I don't think as a group, we're not an intimidating crowd, and I think that helps a lot for developing street cred and getting the respect.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Stephen mentioned all the data-driven aspects, which I think are true.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: We're also used with working with teams, which I think is very important for various hospital leadership positions.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, lastly, as I was thinking about this, I think we're very used to having crucial conversations and develop, and we have developed powers of persuasion.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: We have to convince people to do things that they sometimes don't want to do, which I think hospitals' leaders need to do.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: When we've done that without having positions of power in our Yepie role.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I think all those skills or all those experiences, I think, kind of lend hospital epidemiologists to having more senior hospital roles.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Jay, I'm struck by your observations because the yeah, the reality too is that everything that you describe when framed that way, you know, it points a straight line to all kinds of opportunities, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: But in the moment, those are the same activities that can be frustrating, you know, snooping around in the, you know, to look for a source or to some of those difficult conversations.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a reminder to the more junior people who are listening that having mindfulness about those activities, there's a benefit to them.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always struck when people say, well, all I do is put out fires.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how you put out fires and those relationships those formed, the skills that you build, they they do pay dividends.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's a rationalization over a particularly hard week or particularly difficult circumstance.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: But just, you know, listening to you reminded me of just how important it is to look at that as part of your development and not the unpleasant consequences of being in these roles.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I really appreciate what you've said.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think we're we're geared to problem solving.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think all of us, or many of us, have been involved in problem solving that had nothing to do with hospital epidemiology, but we identified a problem and wanted to find a solution.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we were all in on that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those things kind of lend itself to a role that is kind of something that is very broad and has to kind of have broad, wide open eyes about making the organizations better.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: You both definitely made very strong arguments for why people in these roles are suited.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think somebody maybe who might be looking to apply for one of these senior leadership roles only really needs to listen to some of the points that you've highlighted as talking points for themselves as to why they think that they would be really well suited for the role.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like both of you came to your own current roles from sort of a place of natural evolution.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that may not always be the case for some individuals, or maybe some individuals really from the beginning have decided, well, I want to get to that CMO job or I want to get to that chief quality job.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that in that planning there's anything specific that might help some of these individuals, or for people who are hearing this and are now starting to think, well, they're right, you know, I do have these qualities, maybe I should think about these other types of jobs.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Any thoughts about how they can figure out what career opportunities there may be out there?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let me back off for a sec.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think one thing it's important to separate out are people who are at academic organizations who have more of an academic uh rule and background versus people who are maybe in a community setting who are more engaged in hospitals because I think those are very different phenotypes.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think people on the academic side often don't know how hospitals run.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one other important thing to do is really get engaged with hospital committees.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: That would be the first step.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think most of us are involved with the infection prevention committee, obviously, but if you're not engaged with other hospital committees, I would do so to really understand how hospitals run.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's maybe more important for people who are embedded in their research or their academics in their academic uh endeavors.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think an honest skill assessment is pretty important.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Look for gaps in what you're what you need to do.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if if you want to develop a role in a hospital and you may need some background in general leadership skills or conflict resolution or even developing emotional intelligence, those kinds of things are really important if somebody wants to progress on the hospital level.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Get engaged in your hospital's various committees.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, though I think that that's that's important, that's the important thing to do.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, something that may come up later, but having a mentor, approaching your hospital uh leadership with your intent.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is something that's very important.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Let those in those positions know that you are interested in that progression and kind of being and taking their lead.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would extend uh just a reminder, you know, can thinking about the audience here, uh, both Jay and I really benefited from some of the opportunities we had through the professional society and through Shea.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the opportunity to serve on the committees, uh and Chrissy, as you do, and you know, uh have leadership roles and contribute, you know, it it does teach you a lot and gives you a lot of experience with um professionally maybe less diverse, but from a perspective standpoint and to build that network, I think that's really important.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm always struck, and Jay, you probably have the same experience that I I get sent to me a whole sort of uh wagon train of students and residents and whatnot thinking about careers in healthcare leadership who ask me about MBAs or MHAs or MPHs.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, it's always ironic because as we've already shared, I that's not a pathway I happen to have followed.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I feel sometimes ill-equipped to to measure the value.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think it's evolving very much.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I am seeing more and more where there might be more expectations for more formal training, such as MBAs, MHAs.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it I think it's hard for me at least to give uh a direct guidance about that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I will put a plug in, you know, having already said that I think we are naturally or by our training, uh particularly adept at some of the skills needed.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: But but one skill that I think it's worth investing in, and this would be true for folks looking in this career, or honestly, it's what I tell my teenage kids too, is learning about decision science and decision management.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's a formal degree, coursework, or reading or familiarity, you know, the the pandemic at its peak was a stark lesson in how valuable the skill of decision making in uncertainty is.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we come to it by nature of our work, but there is a science behind it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not an expert in that science, but I was fortunate in my training to have some deep exposure to that as I got a master's in epidemiology that I think has really paid dividends, not only professionally, but I mean, this is stuff that helps me around the house, it helps me solve problems.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very gratified when my 17-year-old brought to me a decision tree with a variety of utilities and outcomes around getting his driver's license.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the reality is that I think that's a really important and perhaps a skill that, in my estimation, we don't emphasize enough, not just in healthcare epi training, but medical training or just adulthood.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying, Stephen.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was fortunate enough to take the advanced training program and quality improvement at Intermountain Healthcare in Utah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a great foundational program to really help me understand implementation science and quality improvement.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes as academic infectious disease physicians, we kind of maybe demarcate real research versus quality improvement.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I, you know, that that's shifting as we see more quality improvement permeate our literature as well.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: That having an understanding that implementation science is uh I think is very important.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think the courses like the one I took out at Intermountain Health are now internalized in many organizations.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: We offer a quality course at our quality academy at our organization.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I would encourage people to get that quality infrastructure because I think that's really important as well.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think where I think that a lot of hospital epidemiologists don't really understand how hospitals work is on the more the nuts and bolts from the credentialing, bylaws, peer review process, all that kind of stuff, that seeking to fill those gaps in knowledge, I think would be very important as well.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: The the course that many of uh at our institution have taken is offered by Horty Springer, which is a national law firm that advises hospitals.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: They offer courses in credentialing and peer review process.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: That would be something that maybe somebody already in an early leadership role would take if they really want to, if they really think that something like a CMO is in their future.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: IHI has courses, Visiant, I would get involved with some of the Visiant networks.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think most of our hospitals are probably in Visiant and they have a medical executives network.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: That would be something that I think would be very important.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: If I have any regrets, I didn't get involved in many of these organizations.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't get involved with AAMC and some of their leadership groups as much as I would have liked to.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there are lots of opportunities that I would glom on real early if this is a career pathway that I was interested in.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And Jay, it's interesting because neither of us anchored specifically on one needs this degree or that degree.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I and maybe, maybe you're echoing kind of my outlook, which was it was always about kind of skills development and filling those gaps.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, a lot of my uh training around uh learning more about finance and the the business of healthcare came by doing, you know, there's weekend symposia and different things that you can do.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Some you mentioned some of the organizations that that run these.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and again, maybe that will evolve over time, but I've been very fortunate both to have had the chance to have that more intensive exposure in shorter period of times without you know paying two years of tuition necessarily, but also to work in an organization which I uh I'm always reminded that, you know, you think about when when folks apply for internships and residencies, they say, well, you know, try to be at a place where you can always ask for help.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I I've been fortunate, and I I suspect for you too, Jay, to be in an organization where folks understand that we're all lifelong learners and that it's okay for me to ask the CFO some deep question about the finances in the same way that he would ask me about you know something related to the clinical care, clinical management.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's something else to be mindful of, particularly as you start scanning the landscape for opportunities.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Another thing I'd point out is that all CMO positions aren't the same.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Some are very much more engaged with operations and finance.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And if that's really part of that job description, that that may take you on a different pathway than another where where those kind of duties are not specifically in your job description.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it may depend on the specifics of the role that you were in.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, Dr.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Steinberg, I think that you made a comment somewhere along the way of maybe a regret that you had about not getting involved in certain organizations.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, as people make these transitions, there are definite mistakes that are made along the way, maybe some pitfalls that you've seen people meet while they were trying to make these career advancements.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I was wondering if you can touch on some of the common mistakes you've seen people make, some pitfalls that you think should be on somebody's radar, and maybe some advice for how to avoid those if possible.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think a lot of us are where we're at because we are open to taking on new duties and we're we're good soldiers.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: We do what we're told.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we have a tendency to get oversubscribed, we get too busy.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that I wish I had done earlier was uh a deselection exercise where I actually mapped out everything I do in terms of its value and the how labor intensive it was.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I either deselected, stopped doing certain things, or delegated.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think people tend to get too busy, and you know, I don't want to go down the pathway of burnout, which is a little a bit out of the scope of this session, but I think people get overextended.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that I kind of straddled the epi world and my C-suite world for too many years before delegating my epi duties.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that was probably a mistake, and I should have gone more all in on buffing up my CMO skills earlier on and not trying to do as much in the epi arena.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think we have to understand our limitations.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think people, especially younger ones, are eager to take on new roles, and I think we get overextended.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that when I look at the people I've mentored, I've told that's one thing that's been a constant.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Don't overextend yourself.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a mark that Jay and I didn't script any of this beforehand, because I have a very similar view in answering to that question.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think learning to delegate, you know, uh as you're climbing the proverbial ladder or even as you're moving into to new areas is really important.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for me, akin to Jay's deselection exercise, is constantly screening saying, what is in this role, what are the things that I'm uniquely positioned to do, not just by my skill set, by the expectation of the role.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for me right now, I have you know a lot of very talented people who report to me.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: A number of them are vice presidents themselves.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the reality is, you know, both for their fulfillment and for my sanity, I need to trust them.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And getting to that point where you can trust the team, trust the people around you, and it extends not only to people reporting to you, but your colleagues and and partners.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And again, my job um happens to be one, as Jay you know alluded to earlier, which is a little bit more tied into operation of the rest of the system.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm working alongside, you know, folks with very different background, very different skill sets, but to understand that, you know, there's a reason why they've gotten to that point and their expertise and to make sure that they have the space to do their job, that I'm not extending myself too thin, again, either for my own sanity or for the good of the mission or the organization.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a really powerful thing with which people struggle as they climb up the ladder.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as you as you move into more senior leadership roles, you know, and this could be true for a department chair, a a division chief, or or CMOs or VPs, is you know, your job increasingly becomes, you know, how do I recruit and retain the best people and give them what they need to do their job?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a very different responsibility than what we were trained to do originally.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the sooner you learn that, the the more fulfilled you'll feel in your role.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: That was really well said, Stephen.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe shifting a little bit, although I think Dr.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Weber, you mentioned this at some point earlier in the conversation, the importance of mentorship.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's something that has always been highlighted as an important thing at various times of our careers.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering if you can reflect on the importance of mentorship, what role it might serve, both maybe having a mentor at this stage or serving as a mentor, and what value comes from that type of relationship.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you highlighted, because folks will sometimes believe that, again, as you move into leadership roles, that that the mentoring you receive somehow becomes less important.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes much, much more important.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when you're moving into realms and domains with which you're less familiar.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've been very fortunate, both here on this campus and across the country, to have mentors who I've worked with.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some are our health system executives, many are senior physicians and peers who, you know, that you can have the frank.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Discussions, the reality check, the people that you trust to tell you that you need to redirect yourself and to to think about how you're doing.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they're both, you know, it's the mentors as coach in some way is something that I've really benefited from.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think on the day that I retire, I'll still be benefiting from the input of my own mentors.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of the folks that we do mentor, I I always measure the importance of it because people, you know, people will ask you in these jobs, you know, well, what keeps you up at night?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I gotta tell you, I've never felt more professional pressure than ensuring that I'm doing right by the people who've entrusted me as a mentor.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean I or anyone else is perfect at this, but that's such an important bond and such a trusting bond that you want to get it right.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: You want to see those folks be successful, be fulfilled, especially in an environment right now.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you have a trail of mentors who are all burned out and broken down, that no matter what their title they're in or what role they're in, then maybe you failed as a mentor.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel that pressure very, very acutely and over the course of my career.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so what becomes interesting is that as you move away from that original core, and I'm very proud of the folks I mentored in Healthcare Epi and folks who are around the country doing great things, you start picking up different sorts of folks, different roles, different backgrounds.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that becomes a challenge because you start learning more from an administrative fellow who has an MHA and aspires to being a chief strategy officer, is very different mentoring than it was for having an ID fellow.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And yet at the same time, that trust, that candor, watching out for them, creating those opportunities remains just as high stakes as it is uh at any other stage.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's both uh for me one of the most pressure-packed parts of my careers, but definitely the most fulfilling uh part of what I've done.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally agreeing that that mentor role is one of the most rewarding in what we do.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I've done with my mentees is really kind of trying to work with them to find out their gaps.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: What are the skill sets they need to develop?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, assign tasks and have me really focusing on developing those uh skill sets.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think about this recently as I had uh worked for a couple of years on my transition planning and trying to develop the skill set of the person who succeeded me as chief medical officer.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And basically, I think that that kind of development over time made more of a seamless transition than what it would have happened otherwise.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: So and I do want to come back to the that that process, which I probably, I'm not sure I emphasize it too much, but that really paying attention to the mental health and well-being of that person who is eager to take on more and have them go through that.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be a formal deselection process, but a way to kind of delegate and give up duties.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think, particularly early and mid-career people have trouble letting go of things.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think as you progress in your career and leadership role, I think it's it's easier for many of us to be able to give up things.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's that's something that needs to be constantly reinforced because I think people are at risk of overextending themselves.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I think it's important to really emphasize the importance of developing that next generation.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: We have this exercise, we go through our medical staff, who are the potential leaders we want to groom for leadership positions, and how can we help develop their skill sets?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Be proactive in those endeavors.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's important for, and not so much for you, but it's important for the organization.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Jay, and also and I'm always struck when when this comes up because there's all the formal mentoring that that we all are are fortunate to be able to do, but there's also the, I don't want to downplay the role modeling, right?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because anyone who came through infection prevention or healthcare epi has had that conversation with someone saying, Well, don't you see when you wash your hands, the whole team will wash their hands, and what you do really matters.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a reminder that at whatever stage you're at in in healthcare or in clinical leadership, there's always someone who's looking to you as an example of what you're doing.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in the past, that led to a lot of people being really hyper-focused on their behavior in meetings and are they saying wise things?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: But increasingly, you know, what Jay just said reminds me that we want to role model the pieces around wellness and fulfillment, that we want people to look and you know, see that their boss or see that someone they admire in leadership is, you know, taking time to take care of their health, taking time, you know, to be with their family or friends, um, that have interests away from.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it it's not it's not cheating from the work that we do or the expectations on us, but especially in this era, it's really important that folks see that that's part of the, in essence, part of the job too.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something we just need to be uh mindful of role modeling.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I know uh Jay, you've always done that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, thanks.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, again, uh, I think what that those are wise words.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think in part of that role modeling, and I don't know why this made me think of something that I would like to mention before we end the session, is that I do think that we have to really kind of impart the lessons learned from the mistakes we have made, because that's one of the most important things that we do.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I was told by a mentor of mine when I entered this role was to be bold.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't sure what that meant at the time, but I I wish I would have been bolder.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I would have been less hesitant when you're sitting around a circle of executives to speak your piece.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, that's something that's a skill set that I developed over time.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've never really regretted things that I've said, but I've regretted things that I haven't said.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: And those are the kind of skills that I think that comes with time and experience.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think that learning how to use the power of the role.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think many esphists in infectious diseases or hospital epidemiology, we're not on power trips, and that's not something that's in our wheelhouse.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: We kind of persuade by other means.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: But on the other hand, learning how to use that power of the role to effect positive change, I think is important and is a skill set to that needs to be important because many of us don't have that naturally.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think those are the kind of things that you develop with your mentees over time and people having to see you in situations and role model that behavior.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: But be bold, speak your piece.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think a lot of times there's too much groupthink sitting around the C-suite table where people are kind of resistant to kind of go against orthodoxy or what the prevailing wisdom is.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: But don't, you know, my parting word would be be bold.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we'll leave it right there.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for that.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: In summary, I hope that those listening have been able to gain a little bit of insight into some of the available career paths for possible epidemiologists and perhaps why people in these roles are suited to some of these administrative roles.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: There are some career moves that may be obvious for some and some not so much, with various different programs available if somebody's looking to develop certain skill sets and the importance of identifying gaps in skill sets and the need to fill them.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And also the importance of not only mentoring, but being mentored at this part of somebody's career, and the importance of finding time also for wellness and highlighting how important that is both to the people that we mentor and for ourselves as we move forward in these roles.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to thank Dr.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Weber and Dr.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Steinberg for such a dynamic and wonderful conversation.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Paul.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was great fun.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can find more educational content like this podcast on Shay's online education center, Learning CE, at www.learningce.shay dash online.org.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: This concludes today's episode of the leadership management series.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for tuning in.