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Transcript

Mark Webber · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:15
  I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust and this is Rusty's Garage.
• 0:30
  In this episode, I'm in Sydney catching up with Mark Webber.
• 0:33
  Somewhere in a schedule of more than 75 international flights a year, the world endurance champion and two-time winner of the Formula One Monaco Grand Prix has snuck back home to Australia for a function with Porsche on its e-performance program.
• 0:49
  I began by talking about a photo that he shared recently on social media and how his rise to the dizzy heights of motorsport really began by ripping around town, like most of us, on a BMX bike.
• 1:02
  Yeah, I think I know the photo you're talking about.
• 1:05
  It was a Christmas present that day.
• 1:06
  I think I was, yeah, I think I was 11, something like that.
• 1:10
  Mongoose, Kurahara, what was it?
• 1:12
  Yeah, mate, it was, no, it wasn't that good, mate.
• 1:14
  I think it was, yeah, I think it was nearly a Melbourne staff.
• 1:20
  She was pretty basic off the rack there, mate.
• 1:24
  But, yeah, I mean, that was just such independence.
• 1:27
  I mean, sensational.
• 1:28
  I still know the routes where I used to go and,
• 1:30
  obviously flicking it off the gutters and having fun and meeting my buddies and sort of little BMX bandits in a way so it was uh it was sensational um and you know I loved doing that in Queenbine for sure your dad's always had a great passion for motor racing I can fondly recall him talking about people like Spencer Martin and others what was your first connection with the sport mate what was the moment that Mark Webber kind of went how long has this been going on this is bloody good
• 1:55
  Yeah, I think it was Tralee, really, which was an oval dirt track out the back of Queanbeyan there near Jerrabamba, in between Queanbeyan and Canberra, right on the border.
• 2:05
  And I think I used to go out there and watch the midgets and sprint cars and also the super sedans or, you know, everything then and on Dad's shoulders.
• 2:12
  And that was...
• 2:14
  Pretty cool.
• 2:14
  So that was the first sort of snapshot of racing, I suppose, to see how the men would go about that, get down in the pits and see them preparing the cars and whatnot.
• 2:25
  And spring cars for a young lad then, obviously, they're pretty intimidating bits of kit, hanging around those things when you're really, really young.
• 2:31
  And I remember jumping in when there was loads of us to go, Dad used to throw us in the boot so we wouldn't have to pay as much to get through the gate.
• 2:39
  And you park the car up on the top of the hill and watch it all, which was just sensational.
• 2:43
  And then...
• 2:44
  I suppose watching on TV was Formula One then.
• 2:46
  I think, you know, I remember, I think it was 85 Monaco Grand Prix.
• 2:50
  I think Mansell crashed up the hill in the Lotus, in the black JPS Lotus.
• 2:55
  And that was actually, I still remember, that was my first Grand Prix that I watched.
• 2:59
  And then, of course, touring cars I watched, obviously, you know, Dick Johnson and all the guys do their thing, which was sensational here at home.
• 3:05
  Yeah, I think the sprint cars and midgets and that was really the, you know, one of my friends, Matthew Hinton, his dad raced and that was the real open door, I suppose, for me.
• 3:14
  Guys like probably back then, Georgie Taddenall and Gary Rush.
• 3:18
  Were you ever tempted to have a steer of one of those things, have you?
• 3:21
  I never have.
• 3:22
  I've been offered, never had.
• 3:24
  Yeah, I suppose when I have come down here in the past, I've just been sort of chilling out.
• 3:27
  But I think the...
• 3:29
  the opportunity would be sensational.
• 3:31
  And, you know, even my partner, Anne, now, she's busting to go to Knoxville, and so am I, to go in America there and watch the Knoxville Nationals.
• 3:38
  And, yeah, actually, you're right, George Tattnall, Gary Rush, you know, all those boys when the Kinsa boys used to come down to Australia too.
• 3:45
  So, yeah, that was brilliant.
• 3:48
  I mean, that was a sensational night out.
• 3:50
  It was a methanol and it was all that, you know, beautiful smell.
• 3:52
  And, yeah, I mean, you get covered in mud, obviously, and...
• 3:56
  Super gladiatorial, right?
• 3:57
  It was really sort of old school and you don't really... Ballroom.
• 4:00
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:01
  It was really amphitheatre of men and machine and that was brilliant for me to see that.
• 4:05
  How'd you get your first go-kart?
• 4:07
  What was it and whatever became of it?
• 4:09
  Yeah, it was a Sprinter chassis.
• 4:11
  It was red and it was just a little 100cc, what you called a clubman engine on it back then.
• 4:20
  Sorry, it was a J. Yeah, the J, yeah.
• 4:23
  The J was the next one up.
• 4:24
  And I know where that go-kart still is to this day.
• 4:27
  Yeah, it's still in Canberra.
• 4:28
  Yeah, a guy called Derek Duffy owns the chassis.
• 4:31
  And actually, we bought it off him, so bizarrely, and then he bought it back off us.
• 4:34
  So it was a bizarre story with that cart.
• 4:36
  So it had a pretty adventurous life, I think, early on when I was learning.
• 4:40
  So it's been through some – had a few track limits issues.
• 4:45
  But, yeah, it was a sensational experience.
• 4:48
  little learning curve.
• 4:49
  In that number 27 it was, after my hero, Alain Prost, and there was lots of other 27s with, you know, Gilles Villeneuve and a few others here and there.
• 4:58
  So, yeah, it was a good cut.
• 5:02
  Did you have to have a discussion with your dad at any point?
• 5:04
  Obviously you did things like Formula Ford in Australia and Formula Holden before you headed to Europe.
• 5:09
  Was there ever a point, you know, I know how humble the Weber family is, but was there a point where Dad kind of said, okay, that's it for us, you know, like if you want to do this, mate, you've got to hit the road yourself?
• 5:19
  I think out of carts, it was like I was, at the time there was Formula V then and that was much, much more affordable and still had been a reasonable little staircase in the junior scheme of things as a young single-seater driver trying to get through the ranks.
• 5:36
  But Dad sort of saw that as a bit of a wasted year, I suppose.
• 5:41
  And he could certainly fund one year of Formula Ford racing, which he did to a degree, which he did.
• 5:48
  And we did a bit of state series racing, but he still wanted to do more national stuff.
• 5:53
  And it was very much, you know, I had Andy Lawson, my go-kart engineer, sort of doing the car, and my mate Michael Foreman doing, so there was just sort of three of us doing the car and the travel and all the rest of it.
• 6:05
  And it was, we're just learning a lot on the fly, really, and it was a pretty tough first season.
• 6:10
  And then...
• 6:12
  Yeah, the second year was with Yellow Pages.
• 6:13
  So without that, honestly, there was no question about it.
• 6:16
  I think even after the end of the first year, it was going to be tough for us to continue.
• 6:20
  But I think Dad knew my commitment.
• 6:22
  I was doing his head in with how much determination, I suppose, and how much fire I had and what I needed to do.
• 6:27
  I mean, I left...
• 6:29
  Queenbeyan pretty early, went to live in Kellyville in Sydney with Spencer Martin actually.
• 6:32
  So, and then I used to commute to Oram Park to race, sorry, to work, which was not exactly the easiest, commute in a shitbox Commodore wagon.
• 6:42
  Was that your first car?
• 6:43
  That was my second car, mate.
• 6:44
  Dad was always clever, giving me low powered machinery.
• 6:47
  So, my first car was a Toyota, 69 Toyota Corona, two speed.
• 6:50
  A lot of power.
• 6:52
  Two-speed automatic, mate, yeah.
• 6:53
  So, yeah, that thing, that was a beast.
• 6:56
  Like, that car went through plenty.
• 6:58
  I used to, I still wish I had it now.
• 7:01
  We used to do school runs at lunch with all the girls in the back and do some rally.
• 7:05
  It was bench front seat, so we had, like, eight or nine people in it driving flat out through the bush out there.
• 7:10
  And there was another trip we did.
• 7:11
  I had a mate of mine who was a bit shy with the girls and he wasn't, had a bit of a late starter, but we had a ski trip the next day, but we took him out to Fish Week where obviously we were the...
• 7:20
  The ladies of the night were and sort of gave him a bit of a head start.
• 7:25
  And we'd finished there and it was late at night.
• 7:27
  And the Toyota broke down on the bloody motor, or the road, back from Fish Week to Queen Mead.
• 7:33
  So there was five of us on the side of the road trying to get this thing kicked over, ready for the ski trip.
• 7:38
  We got there in time and then, yeah, so the Toyota lived to fight another day.
• 7:43
  I think we couldn't get the smile off our partner in crime's face for the rest of the trip.
• 7:48
  But so the car saw a bit of action.
• 7:50
  It was, yeah, she was a good weapon.
• 7:51
  Those early days, I think, were the real formation of Aussie grid, weren't they, mate?
• 7:56
  That determination.
• 7:58
  You've always been the kind of guy that wanted to benchmark yourself against the best.
• 8:03
  Yeah.
• 8:04
  When did the idea of coming to Europe happen and how hard was that to stitch that all together?
• 8:12
  When I'd had the pretty successful season in 1995 in Australia in Formula Ford, that year I was keen to race the 1600 Formula Ford Festival in 1995, which is the biggest Formula Ford race in the world, at Brands Hatch in the UK.
• 8:29
  Anne was, you know, she had a few contacts over there, but it was obviously, you know, still to leave Australia and just go over there for a few weeks is no big deal at all.
• 8:38
  You know, you can do that, but in terms of, okay, you can come back with your tail between your legs and it might not have worked out.
• 8:43
  So...
• 8:45
  Anyway, that was the first time I wanted to go over there having read autosport magazines that are two weeks old, down at the Queen Baird and the newsagents waiting for them to come in each day.
• 8:55
  They're not here yet.
• 8:55
  Okay, they're not here yet, not here yet.
• 8:57
  So sort of reading about who you might race against and what's going on, which I was very keen to do.
• 9:03
  And probably a bit impatient too, I think, to leave Australia.
• 9:05
  I wanted to get over there earlier than I was probably getting ahead of myself, to be honest.
• 9:08
  But I think that's...
• 9:12
  the 1600 race there was two there was two engine categories at the festival at that period the 1600 and the 1800 and obviously 1800 was the the top-notch category and 1600 was the cars and the engines that i was familiar with from australia and everyone said that i'd get i'd get hosed in the 1600 because there were so many specialists in the uk um which there was um and and is and um
• 9:36
  I couldn't do that.
• 9:37
  Well, they just said, look, it's not going to happen.
• 9:39
  We can't get the right sort of car for you.
• 9:40
  And it was all just too hard basket.
• 9:42
  So we're a bit disappointed, to be honest.
• 9:44
  And then I said, well, at least we've got to go back with a test down or about.
• 9:47
  And to be honest, Ann and I, we worked our nuts off at least to get a drive to go and then at least head back to Australia with some sort of knowledge of how we might move things forward for 96.
• 9:56
  And then I drove the 1800 car at Sneddon.
• 10:03
  And a day later, Ralph Fuhrman, who's the boss of Van Diemen Formula Ford chassis, said that you can do the 1800 Formula Ford Festival, which was a big deal.
• 10:13
  And so I finished third in the first festival that year, and then my only festival, and he said come back next year.
• 10:20
  And it was a very, very heavily subsidised drive for the year after, which was fantastic.
• 10:23
  bloody lucky really because the Aussie peso wasn't doing too well back then at 33p to the dollar.
• 10:32
  So, yeah.
• 10:33
  So, in the end, that's how that sort of first transition worked.
• 10:36
  Then I moved, yeah.
• 10:37
  Then I moved over there.
• 10:38
  I mean, I went over there and, yeah, lived with Anne's mum.
• 10:43
  I was in a box room and, yeah, the first sort of year was really tough going.
• 10:49
  What did you have back then, little Ford Fiesta, and were you doing driver training like you were in Australia?
• 10:53
  How did you sort of make ends meet?
• 10:54
  Yeah, I did, yeah.
• 10:55
  It was Ford Fiesta 1.1, bought it off some dodgy geezer in Essex.
• 10:59
  And, yeah, so it was over 600 quid, which I probably paid 300 quid overs for it.
• 11:03
  But, yeah, but again, that thing, I just got so fluky with my little, you know, shitbox road cars.
• 11:09
  They always hung in there.
• 11:10
  Obviously, it was a little front-wheel drive, and so I couldn't be too adventurous with it.
• 11:13
  But that did a lot of mileage.
• 11:16
  Yeah, I was a driving instructor.
• 11:19
  We then moved to Norwich, which was closer to the Van Diemen factory, and that was a bad commute for anywhere.
• 11:24
  I mean, Norwich is – it doesn't matter where.
• 11:26
  You know, that A11 is just a suicide road.
• 11:28
  That road's a single file.
• 11:30
  It's a bit of your carriageway now, but back then it was just – When you're in a gutless – Yeah, so dangerous in a gutless car and doing 50-50 moves past trucks and trying to get to –
• 11:39
  you know, run different, you know, how quick you get to sort of Brands Hatch or wherever, Alton Park or whatever for 43 pounds a day was, yeah, it was, but you just, you just had to do it.
• 11:51
  I mean, it was, it was what needed to be done and, you know, I knocked around with great guys and met so many good friends and unfortunately someone like Dan Weldon, you know, met him and worked with him and, yeah, had some good fun times.
• 12:01
  So it was a...
• 12:03
  They're the things that are making of you.
• 12:04
  It shows you how hungry and determined you have to be and it requires and tests your resilience, and that's what's very important.
• 12:12
  You did.
• 12:13
  It's a great thing that young drivers can find online.
• 12:16
  You mapped out, I think, with Annie back then, a proposed kind of career line, and it had different options which way you could go.
• 12:22
  The ultimate goal, the focal point, was always...
• 12:25
  was always Formula 1, but for a lot of people there are detours along the way.
• 12:29
  So you'd go on through Formula Ford and, you know, F3, Allen Docking, things like that.
• 12:33
  But –
• 12:34
  Mercedes, you get to drive, I can recall going with Camercomble and Murph and others to Laguna Seca in 98 and seeing you race.
• 12:43
  What was that car like at first?
• 12:46
  Yeah, I mean, I first drove that car in July 97 at the Red Bull Ring.
• 12:50
  And, I mean, I did feel a little bit out of my depth, to be honest, because it was only...
• 12:55
  Only eight months before I was racing Formula Ford, you know, so then, like, it was like I was a bit old for some categories, if you like, and then this opportunity was like all of a sudden, shit, I'm so young to be in this car now.
• 13:06
  Like, at whatever I was, 21 was a little bit, you know,
• 13:10
  you know, inexperienced to say the least in terms of what cars were driven up to that point.
• 13:14
  But AMG, you know, they rang me and there was a few illnesses further up the food chain in terms of Gerhard Berg was missing some Grand Prix.
• 13:21
  So then that meant Alex Wirtz, who was the AMG Mercedes driver at the time, was replacing the Benetton and then they had a halter fill.
• 13:27
  So it was between myself and Roberto Moreno, which I thought was totally bizarre how that would work.
• 13:31
  But, I mean, they wanted to get some young guys in the ranks there and they loved British Formula 3 at the time.
• 13:36
  I mean, I know Gaudunga and Norbert Haag and Hans-Werner Ulfrecht at the time, they loved the quality of guys coming out of British Formula 3 with Dario Frankidi, Jan Magnus and all those guys.
• 13:46
  So the car itself was a 7.2-litre V12 car.
• 13:51
  was a beast.
• 13:52
  I mean, it was, um, you know, 730 kilowatt or something.
• 13:55
  It was crazy.
• 13:55
  Yeah.
• 13:56
  It was so much horsepower.
• 13:57
  So, um, and torque, I mean, the torque, if I've never had something that would just, I mean, you know, the most power I had up to them was like 300 with a, with a, so it was nearly double and change what I've ever experienced, which was, which was a lot.
• 14:10
  Um, and downforce and, and I suppose it's the environment too, you know, the, you know, sitting in a closed cockpit, you know,
• 14:17
  which I'd never done before.
• 14:18
  I'd always been an open-wheeler driver, so, you know, behind the windscreen.
• 14:20
  And I remember driving that car the first time Alessandro Nannini had been driving it the day before, and he had a helicopter crash years before, and he had a prosthetic arm to change gears with.
• 14:33
  So the gearbox, the way the situation was set up, like a push-and-pull sort of interesting sort of gearbox situation.
• 14:38
  So for an abled driver, which I normally was...
• 14:43
  It was an interesting cop kit as well.
• 14:44
  So there was just lots of things for me to get used to at a short time.
• 14:46
  And you spend hours on that thing.
• 14:49
  I mean, that was the other thing with sports car racing.
• 14:51
  It just went on and on and on compared to Formula 3 or Formula 4 races.
• 14:55
  So you soon learnt about being comfortable in a racing car for the first time where other races were like for 25 minutes, half an hour.
• 15:01
  And now we're like looking at sort of, you know, two and a half hour, three hour stints, which was uncharted territory for me.
• 15:07
  But good mentors around you then, mate, some very famous names that I guess helped shape you in those early years, didn't they?
• 15:14
  Oh, no question, Rusty.
• 15:15
  I think the Bernd Schneider absolutely was brilliant for me because, I mean, up until then I was very, very arrogant on telemetry and data because I wanted to really work it out myself.
• 15:26
  Particularly in Australia, I was useless with, you know, just accepting that other people could do something better and I would see it as...
• 15:34
  a bit of a I suppose a shortcut and cheating that I would need to use someone else's ideas or data or or ways to skin a cat to get to get the job done and stop the stopwatch earlier and Berndt was into me very early about you know making sure that I turned pro on that side of it so when you're out of the car he was he was very much um a big a big brother in terms of and fitness he was a big he was very disciplined in the two in the true German way of
• 16:00
  Getting lean and getting stronger and obviously big mileage on the running and just getting my head around all that, but also on the technical side, working with the team and making life just generally easier for yourself.
• 16:11
  Instead of making it harder for yourself and keep driving around problems, let's start to polish yourself up in terms of the professional.
• 16:17
  So Bernd was sensational and Keith Van de Grint, who was the head...
• 16:22
  Bridgestone tyre technician at the time who did a lot of work with Michael Schumacher in Formula One after that.
• 16:27
  And you don't realise again at the time the exposure to amazing people, but it was great knowledge for me at a young age then to have that for the rest of my career.
• 16:35
  So the car that we were talking about to begin with was the CLK.
• 16:38
  The CLR that followed made headlines in 99 at Le Mans.
• 16:41
  I mean, it was, mate, it was lower in overall height, wasn't it?
• 16:45
  Less drag.
• 16:46
  You did a stack of testing beforehand too, 35,000 Ks or something.
• 16:50
  What went wrong at Le Mans that year?
• 16:52
  So I think, importantly, that year, there was no other sort of races in the calendar, so to speak.
• 16:58
  So with the previous, the CLK, we had to do, there was a championship, the FIA World Championship around the time.
• 17:05
  So then that was sort of dropped, or Mercedes sort of pulled out and were just going to focus on Le Mans.
• 17:09
  So they made a Le Mans...
• 17:11
  racing cars.
• 17:11
  It was just, the CLR was built just for, just to go racing at Le Mans.
• 17:17
  V8 engine, much, very, very different power plant, very, supposed to be very efficient.
• 17:23
  And that year at Le Mans, we were up against, I mean, it was a very, very, very competitive, unbelievable.
• 17:27
  We had Nissan, you had BMW, you had Porsche, you had Toyota.
• 17:32
  I think Audi were there with an open car, with, I mean, open cockpit car.
• 17:35
  So it was very, super competitive.
• 17:39
  And everything went well.
• 17:40
  Testing was going well.
• 17:41
  We did a huge amount of mileage in Fontana, which was, you know, with the bank circuit in terms of getting the engine loads right for durability testing.
• 17:49
  And we went to the pre-test, which is always traditionally a month before Le Mans.
• 17:57
  And we got smoked.
• 17:58
  We absolutely got our ass kicked and we were slow, you know, basically everywhere.
• 18:02
  It wasn't like just one sector.
• 18:03
  Like if you look at the Porsche lap itself, if you look at the last sector, it's made up of a lot of fast corners with Porsche curves and karting and the four chicanes.
• 18:12
  And sort of it's got a lot of fast corners in it.
• 18:15
  So you can break that down.
• 18:16
  And the middle sector is basically the big stop chicanes with huge high speeds every time.
• 18:22
  And we were pretty much slow everywhere.
• 18:24
  We couldn't really target one second.
• 18:25
  We said, okay, well, it looks like basically we're down on power.
• 18:29
  So that was the first thing that really hit us with that car was we had a real wake-up call that we were down on power and we were like, well, if we can do an extra lap, which at the time was I think 12 laps was relatively competitive, but we can stretch it to 13, then we might be on fuel economy, we might be a chance to get some of this lap time back just purely less stops than a 24-hour race.
• 18:50
  And then it turned out the BMW and a few others, they were still going to be going to 13 anyway.
• 18:53
  So it was like, we had no advantage.
• 18:55
  So then they panicked.
• 18:57
  So after that test, they absolutely panicked and said, okay, we need to strip some more aerodynamics out of the car.
• 19:02
  So we need to be, at least let's attack sector two at Le Mans.
• 19:05
  Let's get quick on the straights and deal with the last sector as the race sort of goes on, because we thought that the Bridgestone tyres were going to be,
• 19:15
  bedding in a lot more on the circuit, because Michelin were very strong there, we were on Bridgestones, and if the race continues to go on Bridgestones, we'll get a little bit more competitive than that within the corners.
• 19:22
  So, stripped all the aero out.
• 19:24
  We went to Hockenheim, the old Hockenheim track, which was super, super quick, as probably some people remember, but without the chicane.
• 19:31
  So, Bernt and I again, Schneider, we went there and we tested, without the chicanes, doing 350k an hour, and we're just trying to get the car as trimmed out as possible, and get absolutely as fast as possible.
• 19:44
  All good.
• 19:44
  Test went okay, so we go back to Le Mans.
• 19:47
  On Thursday night, then we had the first flick.
• 19:50
  To see an accident of these proportions, you just have to fear the worst the moment it happens.
• 19:57
  By the time the rescue crews got out there into the trees, and he was some yards from the track, well, what saved him here is that the car landed on the belly pan with the engine and gearbox hitting first.
• 20:08
  It didn't hit trees, it went into soft earth, and that undoubtedly is what meant that he came out with a little bit of bruising, no other injuries, and he was the most relieved man around.
• 20:19
  We worked out, well, we were working out very, very slowly in...
• 20:24
  The Germans were working out slowly anyway.
• 20:26
  The drivers were working out real fast, but the Germans were working out very slowly.
• 20:28
  This car was unstable at certain speeds.
• 20:30
  So aerodynamically, you get behind another car in a tricky window or pocket of air or whatever, and the car would get very light and it would flip.
• 20:37
  So basically, we did not enough mileage at all with that aerodynamic configuration.
• 20:42
  So that's why the car was very dangerous and obviously had the second flip the second day afterwards.
• 20:49
  So huge shunts.
• 20:50
  And then my teammate Peter Dunbrek flipped in the race.
• 20:53
  So the car was a disaster in the end.
• 20:57
  By regulation, there was a few cars that did flip under that regulation.
• 21:00
  The Porsche lost a car with Yannick Dalmas in Road Atlanta.
• 21:05
  And untragically, Michael E. Albarraga got killed in Lao Tzu's ring, I think, in the Audi with a puncture and then it flipped in the right rear.
• 21:14
  So those cars were unstable at super high speed, but we just...
• 21:18
  did our homework late, and it was down to horsepower because if we were up on power, we would have kept the downforce in the car, but we basically stripped all the load out of it, and when you get that quick, the car gets unstable.
• 21:27
  Does Mark Webber, as a young bloke back then, compartmentalise that?
• 21:31
  Did you relive it?
• 21:32
  Was it like how tense did it get with Merck?
• 21:34
  I mean, that's a pretty heavy point in your career.
• 21:36
  Massive, yeah.
• 21:37
  I mean, it was tough times because I said to them, like, I'm never going to drive this car again.
• 21:40
  I mean, I can't.
• 21:41
  To have these accidents in the truss was really...
• 21:45
  Tested.
• 21:46
  So that program stopped and then Norbert, I mean it was a really tough year, 99 for me because I then was sort of out of...
• 21:55
  Well, I was out of a job because they were keen for me to do DTM, which I wasn't overly keen to go and do DTM.
• 22:01
  And then Norbert Hugg was head of Mercedes-Benz Motorsport at the time.
• 22:05
  Greg Moore was leaving Foresight's IndyCar team.
• 22:10
  He'd signed a deal with Roger Penske, and there was going to be a seat open at Foresight.
• 22:17
  And Greg tragically got killed in Fontana that year in that four-side car in the last race.
• 22:22
  So it was just, and I was at Road Atlanta that year and I was like, checking.
• 22:26
  And I'm just like, I don't want to go to IndyCar either.
• 22:28
  So the whole thing was just really, really brutal six months on sort of direction.
• 22:33
  And Eddie Jordan was a real saviour, to be honest.
• 22:35
  Eddie was great sort of introducing me to Stoddy and then just got the fire going again.
• 22:39
  And I'd go to the factory every day at Jordan and do his head in to try and get a bit of
• 22:43
  test drive in the Jordan and he just, you know, we still laugh about it to this day, Eddie and I, but yeah, I think I stopped him at a petrol station and well, he was stopped at a petrol station.
• 22:52
  Then I sort of, yeah, got out of the car and- Corned him.
• 22:55
  Corned him again.
• 22:56
  So yeah, so that's how desperate I was at that time.
• 23:00
  So you get into Formula 3000 and you kind of get the eyes back on
• 23:04
  on Formula One, some ripper results in F3000.
• 23:08
  Where was your first F1 test?
• 23:10
  Recount it for us.
• 23:11
  And the first things that kind of went through your mind, obviously you experienced some good power and aero in that Merc, but getting to drive an F1 car for the first time, this boy from Queenbea...
• 23:23
  Yeah, it was Barcelona and it wasn't in the best Formula 1 car, but it's still a Formula 1 car within the arrows.
• 23:29
  And I think what hits your rustic rate is just the powder weight.
• 23:33
  I mean, the powder weight ratio is just ridiculous.
• 23:35
  The cars are so, so light.
• 23:37
  And you're literally like the change of direction wherever you want to put the car.
• 23:44
  I mean, you're just for you.
• 23:46
  To get ahead of the car and put the car on the limit within the first half a day is really tricky because it just takes time to get comfortable with that type of car.
• 23:55
  And, you know, the consequences also if you go off the road are quite big because you don't realise – I mean, you feel – everything feels relatively comfortable.
• 24:03
  you might have a moment and then obviously things, you know, everything's always happening very, very quick in an F1 car.
• 24:09
  So, I think the exposure at that speed and then also physically you work out really quick like your neck, your shoulders, your lower back, like everything just starts to load up if you haven't quite got the seat right.
• 24:21
  So, I just remember that,
• 24:24
  hitting the throttle for the first time, leaving the pits, and obviously your head being pushed back to the back of the headrest, hitting the brakes, and you're like, you know, you've got to hold your head back.
• 24:32
  And it's just like all your senses have been abused, you know, and just how intense it is.
• 24:37
  And it was, I mean, it's like I've never, obviously you're not going to sit on the end of a bullet in terms of missile or whatever, but just felt like you're just, you know, it was incredibly...
• 24:48
  aggressive the car was just so aggressive and for you to get ahead of it and the noise too i mean back then we had you know obviously with the v10 engines and and the horsepower they're putting out um you know even they're warming the car up in the garage you're like you know you've got to you're going to control that thing like it's like it's absolutely you know it's like
• 25:06
  you know when they're buzzing away in the garage and you're like okay so it's a step and it's not for everyone i mean some people get in them and they just can't and it's just coming at them a bit quick and always to find that last half a second is is really really challenging but um it was a great time you ring your dad what'd you tell him yeah i said those things are just insane i don't know how they drive them you know i mean you know
• 25:26
  you really still, there's still doubts there because you're just like, I mean, how are you going to drive one of these on the limit for two hours?
• 25:32
  How are you ever going to do a Grand Prix?
• 25:34
  And I actually remember Sebastian Vetterly exactly having that same thought when he came to test when he was at Williams when I was there and he did the first, like, he did, like, I think 25 laps in Jerez and he just said, like, it's not for me.
• 25:44
  I'm never going to get on top of one of these things.
• 25:46
  Like, how am I going to drive?
• 25:48
  Yeah, how am I going to get on top of one of these things?
• 25:50
  So...
• 25:51
  And that's how it should be.
• 25:52
  That's how F1 should be.
• 25:53
  It should be intimidating.
• 25:56
  It should be tough.
• 25:57
  It should be like, okay, we've got simulators and all the rest of it, and now the guys have got a bit more of a leg up, but it still is not the same to driving the real thing, and it should be extremely exclusive.
• 26:08
  It should be very, very...
• 26:10
  difficult and not for everyone.
• 26:12
  And that's what I explained to dad.
• 26:15
  It was like, I think it went all right, but I'm not sure how we're getting...
• 26:18
  The next opportunity is like, yeah, you've got a lot of homework to do for sure.
• 26:23
  So the Formula One dream is back on track there, no doubt, with lots of challenges there.
• 26:28
  There's testing, obviously, with Benetton.
• 26:31
  But O2...
• 26:32
  is the opportunity with Stoddy and really they were the minnows of the team.
• 26:40
  You put your balls on the line big time for that, didn't you?
• 26:44
  And Australia ultimately was a fairy tale with that fifth place finish.
• 26:48
  But I'm not often sure that everyone understands how much you stuck your neck out in that scenario, mate.
• 26:54
  Yeah, it was tough.
• 26:55
  I mean, I was, I think it was about a million quid in the red with Stoddy.
• 27:00
  I mean, he also had some F1 testing lined up with Tom Walkinshaw, which didn't exactly turn out to be the easiest relationship for Tom and Stoddy either in terms of that, other business issues.
• 27:10
  So I was caught up in some of that.
• 27:13
  And anyway, the first contract was three races.
• 27:16
  So I had Australia, Malaysia and Brazil were the first Grand Prix that year in 2002.
• 27:20
  No guarantees for you on that.
• 27:21
  Nope, nothing.
• 27:24
  And Flavio was putting a lot of pressure on Ron Walker then to say, come on, you tired Aussies, you always talk a good game about a race, but you never support your drivers and rah-rah.
• 27:31
  So Flavio was giving Ron a hard time.
• 27:34
  And then, like you say, Melbourne just was, when we got those points, obviously there was a tremendous amount of money for Stoddy financially.
• 27:40
  So with the constructors' position, or constructors' points even, to get two points at fifth place back then was really, really tricky.
• 27:46
  And yeah.
• 27:48
  And that night it was probably Malaysia, which pretty much agreed, okay, you're going to do the rest of the season.
• 27:52
  You know, he'll keep you in here and irrespective of what comes out of Australia.
• 27:56
  And Ron knew that as well.
• 27:57
  So it was, you know, Ron was also savvy to understand that they weren't going to move me.
• 28:01
  So, yeah, and Alex Jung was my teammate, was from Malaysia.
• 28:07
  He was paying for most of the, or his sponsors were paying for most of the operation of the team.
• 28:11
  So it was a...
• 28:13
  It was great to have that opportunity to start an F1 and even as early as sort of, I think it was Barcelona time, you know, Nicky Lauda and Flavio were talking about, you know, Jaguar, you know, within sort of summer.
• 28:28
  Yeah, it was like pretty much in Canada.
• 28:31
  So six months in, having had just a three race contract, I was pretty much signed for Jaguar for three years here after.
• 28:36
  Let's just, we'll come back to the progression in F1 for a second.
• 28:38
  I just want to just recount the Albert Park race for a moment because you qualified 18th, you come through to finish fifth.
• 28:45
  I mean, they let you get on the podium, which I mean, only the top three are ever allowed to do that.
• 28:49
  I mean, it was really special, insane.
• 28:51
  As the race unfolded, mate, what things was the car and what were you worried about with the car?
• 28:59
  Yeah, I mean it wasn't exactly the finest piece of engineering.
• 29:04
  The Minardi, it was a bit of a, so we had an old Peugeot engine in it.
• 29:07
  Asia Tech.
• 29:08
  Asia Tech, exactly, yeah.
• 29:10
  So the DNA was a Peugeot.
• 29:12
  It did a grand total of 16,4 thousand revs compared to like the 19 grand that the BM's and the Ferrari's were at the time.
• 29:19
  And they gave me a big, they call it a party mode now, 16,7 with another 300 RPM in qualifying, which was a complete joke.
• 29:27
  And the French just thought was amazing, which I thought was rubbish.
• 29:32
  So we had only done 17 laps in a row up until testing at that point.
• 29:36
  So this thing was so fragile.
• 29:37
  I mean, the car was...
• 29:39
  It wasn't...
• 29:42
  Hadn't enough mileage, simple as that.
• 29:45
  And, you know, when the Italians and French meet on most things, it doesn't really turn out that well.
• 29:49
  So this was the car that had all of that combination and a bit of an Australian driver, let's say, and an Australian team boss.
• 29:57
  So off we go, the start, and there was a huge shunt in the first corner, but pretty early in the race...
• 30:02
  it became apparent that if we just finish this race, which was the goal anyway, like let's just circulate it as fast as I can, of course, and do what we can.
• 30:09
  But we're having problems with a little bit.
• 30:12
  The hydraulic system was struggling a bit with pressure and also we lost the differential control as well.
• 30:17
  So I have a huge amount of single wheel spin.
• 30:20
  The locking system on power was not working, so I had a lot of single wheel spin, which was a disaster.
• 30:25
  I think for one of the pit stops also, the pit limiter, yeah.
• 30:30
  the fuel flap wasn't linked to the pit limiters so when i arrived the the the fuel um flap for the for the nozzle was was staying closed and so the guys had to then um i remember john boy walton was the team manager he was shouting stuff out good experienced old boys no longer with us unfortunately good bloke
• 30:46
  And he just simply, he needs some common sense, obviously just unscrew it, like just get a frigging screwdriver.
• 30:51
  The Italians were jumping up and down like maniacs.
• 30:53
  And I was looking in the mirror going, we just need fuel.
• 30:57
  Just put some fuel in it somehow, snap it off, whatever.
• 30:59
  Just lift this, snap this thing off, do whatever.
• 31:01
  I was nearly trying to, you know.
• 31:02
  But anyway, we got fuel in it in the end and off we went.
• 31:05
  And, yeah, and the car was just – there was alarms everywhere.
• 31:09
  It was kicking off.
• 31:10
  It was not happy at all.
• 31:11
  And then Mick Asala was closing on me with the last few laps to go because he had a rough first lap with a Toyota.
• 31:16
  And that car was quicker than us.
• 31:17
  It had a lot more power.
• 31:18
  It was just a faster car and the subject.
• 31:20
  But the study radioed through and said, like, under no circumstances should you let him pass.
• 31:25
  I'm like, okay.
• 31:25
  So on the grid, Stoddy was saying, be fine if you finish.
• 31:28
  And now it's like –
• 31:29
  the difference between fifth and sixth was a big deal for him.
• 31:32
  So I thought, okay, Stoddy doesn't want me to let him past at all.
• 31:36
  But I was calm.
• 31:37
  I thought, you know, I didn't put Salo on a pedestal at all.
• 31:40
  I thought, when he arrives, I'm going to make it really hard for him.
• 31:44
  It was my first race.
• 31:45
  Also, I was not comfortable in the car at all.
• 31:47
  I had, like, my knees were purple, my elbows were purple.
• 31:49
  The car was too small for me.
• 31:51
  And it was really, you know, I needed to muster up all the sort of focus I could to get this thing home.
• 31:59
  And Sarlo, I knew in turn three there's some radiated coolant there from the whole race, which Jenson Button got harpooned in turn one on the first lap.
• 32:06
  So that corner was out of action, turning in late for the whole Grand Prix.
• 32:11
  But Sarlo, I blocked quite often in turn three and then ultimately took the bait on the outside and then he spun on the oil, which was sensational.
• 32:18
  So, yeah.
• 32:19
  Yeah.
• 32:20
  So got it home and as you say, the podium was mayhem, was carnage, the whole grid was, I mean, it looked like I'd won the bloody world championship the way it was all carrying on.
• 32:29
  What a reception Webber is receiving here.
• 32:32
  The efforts of Paul Stoddart with the tiny Minardi team brought to fruition on his debut by the 25-year-old Australian fought his way into Formula One.
• 32:43
  Well done, everybody.
• 32:43
  Fantastic job.
• 32:45
  I mean, it doesn't get any better.
• 32:47
  giving little burnouts as he comes down into the pits what a treat for the Australian fans and yeah because I said to Ron at the time, I'm not going to get on the podium no, that's a joke, like it's for Michael and all the boys it's my first race, like I mean I'm not going to be like a big boy in town going to do that having finished in fifth, he said you get up on that bloody podium so we went up there and Stoddy loved it with the champagne and such a great sight to have them up on the podium, it's appropriate right now it is, it is and there he is
• 33:15
  A man whose life has perhaps just changed.
• 33:18
  And to be fair, Michael was funny because he, I think, Ferrari noticed if they're going to get any column inches the next day, they need to have a photo together.
• 33:24
  So I've still got a photo now where Michael and Sabine, his manager, come down and, well, his PA come down and, you know, had a photo with the Monardi guys and that was hilarious just because Michael won the race.
• 33:36
  This is Greg Rust and you're listening to Rusty's Garage.
• 33:39
  In this series, I speak to some of the most passionate automotive designers, collectors, riders and drivers I know.
• 33:46
  The term car guy you often hear when you wander around Pit Lane.
• 33:51
  It's reserved for those who truly love not just the contest of racing, but also have a strong connection to the wheels underneath them.
• 33:59
  Garth Tander will leave you in no doubt about which side he's on.
• 34:03
  At the time, it was quicker than a V8 supercar.
• 34:05
  So from the exit of turn two to the hump at the exit of the cutting, it was a second and a half a lap faster than a supercar in just that phase of the track because it had so much torque, mate.
• 34:15
  It would pull trees out of the ground.
• 34:16
  It had that much torque.
• 34:17
  But it was not that fast coming down Conrad.
• 34:19
  We only did 255, 260, and most of the time we were half throttle saving fuel because seven-litre engine, mate, they drink fuel like it's going out of fashion.
• 34:27
  So most of the time we're driving the car to fuel economy numbers.
• 34:30
  Yep.
• 34:31
  Car Guy.
• 34:32
  Listen to the full episode with Garth Tander here on Rusty's Garage.
• 34:44
  Opposite lock.
• 34:45
  A colloquial term for counter-steering.
• 34:47
  Using oversteer to turn a vehicle rapidly without losing momentum.
• 34:51
  Typically costs time in circuit racing but loved by rally drivers in speedway, drifting and especially the fans.
• 34:57
  Oh yeah, and it's heaps of fun.
• 35:00
  You mentioned before that early on in the Minardi chapter, the opportunity came up with Jaguar.
• 35:06
  And at Jaguar, we get a sense of your pace, your potential, and, you know, podiums with Williams and things like that start coming up.
• 35:17
  Why, in your opinion, did the Williams thing, sadly, just not work out, mate?
• 35:21
  We had such great hopes.
• 35:22
  Jonesy had won the World Championship, Alan Jones, in 1980, and they got so much history, so much success in the sport.
• 35:28
  But it's just timing, mate, isn't it?
• 35:31
  And they had a brilliant finish to the 04 season with the BMW and Montoya and the FW26 was a great car.
• 35:40
  And I drove that car and I thought – I drove it in winter testing in Barcelona in November.
• 35:44
  And I thought, how easy is this thing?
• 35:46
  Like this is going to be so good.
• 35:49
  Like I was doing lap times that I was doing in the Jaguar every lap, like qualifying laps, just going, this thing's going to be – this is a beast in the races.
• 35:56
  Yeah.
• 35:57
  And I just couldn't wait for the season to start.
• 35:59
  And there was a change of regulation that year with front wing and diffuser for the 05 season.
• 36:03
  And so along come the FW27, which was not a good car.
• 36:09
  So disaster.
• 36:11
  I still remember being in the back of the garage at the Valencia test and just thinking...
• 36:17
  My God, we were reasonably quick, but we had no fuel in the car because they were still trying to get sponsors.
• 36:22
  Now, when BMW left, there was a lot of German partners that were starting to leave the team, Allianz Insurance Company and HP and a few of those guys.
• 36:32
  So pressure was on Williams, and I could feel that in winter testing already.
• 36:36
  I was never really being involved in a situation of desperation so early, which was quite an interesting experience for me because...
• 36:44
  Yeah, they were getting me to, you know, we were running, as I say, not underweight, but we were running pretty light to try and do artificial times, knowing this is just a short-term gain for a really painful road down the line.
• 36:56
  So the car itself, yeah, the 27 was aerodynamically just poor, really.
• 37:00
  That was the biggest thing, aerodynamically.
• 37:02
  We hadn't done our homework, and we struggled.
• 37:05
  And they went from, that was the start of a really...
• 37:08
  Tricky face for Williams.
• 37:09
  And, yeah, I mean, hindsight should have went to Renault because Renault hadn't won any races at that point.
• 37:15
  They hadn't had the CV in the previous three years.
• 37:17
  The form card was Williams looked strong, looked good.
• 37:21
  And I wanted to drive for Frank and Patrick, but I went against Flavio's wisdom and Renault then with a form team.
• 37:30
  So that was a bit of a kick in the nuts because I would have started this sort of,
• 37:35
  I think I would have started the Red Bull wins, if you like, and the Red Bull nature sort of at a much earlier age instead of being as I was.
• 37:42
  And, you know, obviously later on I was obviously a bit older.
• 37:44
  But it would have been nice to be a Grand Prix winner, which I'm pretty sure I would have won races in the Renault.
• 37:51
  But it didn't happen.
• 37:53
  I was with Williams and we were second off everywhere we went.
• 37:56
  That phase too, obviously it became, I mean, Fisichella had success and, you know, Fernando Alonso and that sort of stuff.
• 38:04
  When you and I bumped into one another at the, I think it was the Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai at around that time, the notion of going to Red Bull had cropped up or was well advanced.
• 38:15
  you're always a guy that's spoken about good team, good people, and you clearly could see they weren't a team in their infancy, but it was still very early days for them, but they were clearly going the right way.
• 38:26
  What got you over the line there?
• 38:28
  I think it was Adrian Newey, to be honest.
• 38:30
  I mean, David Coulthard should take all the responsibility for that.
• 38:33
  DC was instrumental with working with Dietrich Muthershitz, the boss of Red Border, to say, look, if you want to fast track to success, you need to get the best designer in the world.
• 38:44
  He's not cheap, but if you want to get him, then you've got to start working on him now.
• 38:48
  And I know that did happen, obviously, before I got there.
• 38:51
  So DC and I were reasonably tight, not as tight as we are now, but David and I knew each other and DC was like, yeah, things are on the move here.
• 39:00
  And Flavio as well, that was the second bite of the cherry with him saying, look, this time you're going to listen to me, but, you know, Red Bull...
• 39:06
  going to do things right.
• 39:07
  And it was hard to believe because it was like, I'm just going from a Williams scenario to pretty much from the, we're at the same level at that point.
• 39:13
  It's just like, I'm just changing for the sake of it, you know?
• 39:15
  And, and yeah, so obviously I did sign for Red Bull, but it was more, I think it was Adrian and David that were saying, look, this place is going to rock.
• 39:28
  soon we just need time and um so that was the deal done for me in terms of seeing and and adrian from what i hear um after that you know he was also you know pretty keen to get me as well he was he was pretty strong on and getting me in the team so that was that was that was good
• 39:45
  09 is the year that Aussies kind of look at fondly because it's when you had your first win, you know, Nürburgring and that race, mate, people forget you had a drive-through that you had to deal with.
• 39:58
  I mean, it was – RB5 was a great car, but it was – you still had lots of challenges thrown at you.
• 40:05
  Yeah, we did.
• 40:07
  I mean, it was an interesting year that year because the –
• 40:11
  Braun car with Jensen and Rubens, they started with basically a blown diffuser from the first race.
• 40:16
  So they had, I think JB won the first six races in a row.
• 40:19
  And then they never won a race again when we had, when we used our blown diffuser.
• 40:25
  So Adrian was furious that he missed that.
• 40:28
  He still believes that there was good chat between Ross and Jean on the blown diffuser in terms of regulation.
• 40:34
  But so that's his take on it.
• 40:36
  But in terms of...
• 40:40
  That car, once we got going, it was really at Silverstone, and I was so sore after Silverstone that Seb got the win there because I felt that qualifying the whole race build-up was...
• 40:54
  I thought I should have got the job done in Silverstone and finished second there.
• 40:59
  Then we went to Germany.
• 41:01
  I said, okay, well, I need to get the Australian National Anthem played in Germany here.
• 41:04
  So whatever happens.
• 41:06
  So I qualified on pole and, yeah, I touched Rubens off the line and, yeah, got a drive through.
• 41:12
  But the way the race was unfolding, I rang Kyron up my engineer at the time and, yeah,
• 41:18
  And I'm just saying, you know, how we, you know, I'm just like, because obviously there was different strategies going on, just like I was heavy on fuel and trying to make things work at the time and it's like, mate, you are absolutely hanging in there more than enough.
• 41:28
  Like, this is looking sensational and it just worked out.
• 41:31
  I was always strong at Nürburgring anyway.
• 41:32
  It was a really good track for me.
• 41:33
  It's sort of a track which is, it's always got generally a lot of understeer in it.
• 41:37
  So I like a strong front end.
• 41:39
  So that was a track which always suited me.
• 41:41
  And the RB5 was a really gorgeous car.
• 41:43
  I love the tyres too.
• 41:43
  The Bridgestones were beautiful.
• 41:46
  to drive on.
• 41:47
  And, yeah, it was a sensational Grand Prix.
• 41:51
  Mark Webber, you are a Grand Prix winner.
• 41:54
  Yeah!
• 41:54
  Yeah!
• 41:55
  Yeah!
• 41:56
  Yeah!
• 41:58
  Yeah!
• 41:58
  Yeah!
• 41:59
  Yeah!
• 42:03
  I mean, those cars are gorgeous.
• 42:04
  I mean, that car was a sensational, sensational car.
• 42:08
  And again, I think I won in Brazil that year as well.
• 42:10
  So it was a nice, it was a beautiful, beautiful car.
• 42:12
  Did it have any little traits that you got used to with it?
• 42:16
  I mean, did you do things like give it a name?
• 42:18
  I know Seb used to name his cars and stuff like that.
• 42:20
  Yeah, Seb named all of his cars, yeah.
• 42:23
  No, I didn't name any of my cars, but...
• 42:27
  Look, it was the early days of, I suppose, we did a lot of work with, you know, like flexi front wings and aeroelasticity and all those type of things, which was obviously clearly right on the edge of the regulation, but within because they kept passing the test.
• 42:43
  So, you know, Adrian was more than happy to send enough wings down to the park for Maine.
• 42:47
  So knock yourselves out, guys, do what you need to do.
• 42:50
  So that was, I think, that was...
• 42:53
  And I loved helping develop a lot of that culture, and that was fun within sort of the aerodynamic situation within the team.
• 43:03
  I think that was our real eye-opener for us in terms of, I suppose, the research and the tooling we put in place in the R&D around understanding...
• 43:12
  what we would need then for the RB6 and pushing that forward.
• 43:15
  So that was fun working with the guys on that, mainly in aerodynamic terms.
• 43:21
  So, yeah, I understood those cars really well.
• 43:24
  Everyone talks about you and Seb, and I know it's been well documented in your book and things like that.
• 43:29
  One point of view that I thought was very interesting, Neil Crompton went to the...
• 43:33
  the Grand Prix at Spa and got to hang out with you.
• 43:37
  I think it might have even been 2013, your final year.
• 43:40
  And he was taken aback by how good Seb was away from the media spotlight.
• 43:45
  What was it really like between you guys?
• 43:47
  And is it cool now?
• 43:49
  Look, we're good now.
• 43:50
  At the time, it was, I mean, 2010 was pretty toxic.
• 43:55
  We had the turkey shunt, which wasn't good.
• 43:59
  It was also tough with Helmut because Helmut was running the team effectively in the early days there.
• 44:06
  It was testing times.
• 44:07
  Obviously, they funded him all the way through, and then obviously he was a sensational talent and still is.
• 44:13
  And I was a bit of a washed-up old dog and a porky old dog too, a little bit heavy.
• 44:18
  I was trying to be as lean as I could, but so it was all those things.
• 44:21
  I mean, it was just...
• 44:23
  it was challenging, but that's what you want.
• 44:25
  Formula One's like that.
• 44:25
  You want it to be the hardest category in the world.
• 44:29
  And at the end of the day, when you get to that last one or two guys, you know, that Formula One has a few layers, actually.
• 44:35
  It has like arriving, and then it has, you know, hanging out with the mid-pack and scraping through points every now and again.
• 44:40
  Then it goes for Grand Prix victories, you know, when you've got to win every weekend.
• 44:43
  And it's, it's, it's like, I suppose, with Roger and Raffinadel, whatever.
• 44:47
  It's that last few guys, whether it's Lewis or Seb or Fernando, knocking around those guys every weekend.
• 44:52
  It's,
• 44:53
  It's tough yards and that's how you want it.
• 44:55
  But it's like, wow, does it give you some sleep at night sometimes and you've got to work out how you're going to beat them.
• 44:58
  So, yeah, we had our tough times.
• 45:01
  But there was also times where it was totally, you know, hammed up in the media.
• 45:04
  And I think the German press in Buildsite, which is the gutter press paper over there, and they used to slate me a lot, apparently.
• 45:11
  I didn't obviously read it.
• 45:12
  I couldn't understand it anyway.
• 45:13
  But yeah.
• 45:14
  I had it translated sometimes and there was one race I think we flew back actually together on a private jet actually from India to Abu Dhabi and we were just together with Seb and his wife and we landed and the papers were into us and they thought we were, yeah.
• 45:30
  So they were so 180 off which was a laugh because they were just so incorrect with our relationship.
• 45:36
  So it was positive and they were saying it was negative.
• 45:40
  Yeah, so we're good now.
• 45:41
  Obviously, yeah, on the sly, I'm helping him buy a few Porsches, so it's all good fun, yeah.
• 45:46
  The irony, I guess, mate, is that, I mean, it's a people game, but you actually need two balls, don't you?
• 45:53
  You need two people to be competitive like that to drive the team, but managing that for the team is a big challenge, isn't it?
• 46:03
  It's tough.
• 46:03
  You know, that last part is hard, and we've seen it time and time again where...
• 46:08
  You want two guys pushing the hell out of each other to get...
• 46:12
  It was nearly an ideal scenario for Red Bull because we did that and sort of to getting the team back into that dominating window is fine.
• 46:21
  But then when you're the only two left, like we saw with Nico and Lewis, there's carnage.
• 46:26
  Stuff does happen and you've got this divided dynamic even within the team.
• 46:31
  And you're micromanaging everything from the team's perspective in terms of...
• 46:36
  You know, there has to be parity everywhere.
• 46:38
  Like, it's just insane how protective the engineers get and how the mechanics are and, you know, who's got the floor first, who can build the car first, like just even down to how much love and attention is going into building the car and, and.
• 46:53
  you know selection of gear ratio or just it's just there's no end of of of challenges and to make sure the driver is feeling like he's the one that's getting the love yeah and and the best chance to do the job um so it is challenging and you need strong management in place to to deal with that and and i think
• 47:12
  now Red Bull have that.
• 47:13
  At the time, it was, none of them had ever been through that.
• 47:16
  Like, Christian had never been in that scenario.
• 47:18
  You know, Sepp had.
• 47:18
  I hadn't.
• 47:19
  None of us.
• 47:19
  It was all new.
• 47:20
  Like, how the hell?
• 47:20
  What the hell?
• 47:21
  We've got no one left now.
• 47:22
  We're beating McLaren.
• 47:23
  We're beating Ferrari.
• 47:24
  And now we're going to beat the shit out of each other.
• 47:26
  And it's like, it doesn't work.
• 47:27
  Like, it's hard.
• 47:28
  And the driver's like, we don't want to put the helmets on.
• 47:30
  Like, we just, we take it into our own hands, you know.
• 47:32
  So, that's top flight sport.
• 47:37
  And it's fine mid-pack, floating around points, yeah, teammates, whatever.
• 47:40
  But then when you get to that last part, it's,
• 47:42
  It can be hard on the whole team.
• 47:43
  If I had a dollar for every time someone at a pub had asked me, is Mark Webber in the same car as Sebastian Vettel, I would have a fair bit of dough in the bank.
• 47:52
  I mean, fundamentally, for your time at Red Bull, can you just answer that?
• 47:56
  Were you in equal gear?
• 47:57
  What was the...
• 47:58
  As best they could do, but I mean, at times it is hard.
• 48:02
  Like, you know, were they exactly the same spec on parts?
• 48:06
  Of course they were, but there is small, fine details which can be floor which might give a little bit more downforce.
• 48:13
  There might be an engine when it has two or three more horsepower.
• 48:16
  And obviously these things add up.
• 48:18
  Was it like that all the time?
• 48:20
  Probably not.
• 48:22
  But was there times where I thought it was stretched a bit?
• 48:26
  Yes, it was.
• 48:27
  I thought, well, why is it like that?
• 48:29
  Why do I have to keep an eye on this stuff even?
• 48:32
  And I'd have to keep an eye on the chief mechanic, Kenny, who was in control of what parts went where on race weekends.
• 48:39
  I had word every now and again that things weren't always as straight as they would have liked to have been from my side.
• 48:45
  But look, that's – and actually sometimes you just cannot always produce –
• 48:50
  to have two or three identical of everything, like, it's nearly impossible.
• 48:55
  You know, I mean, it's really, really, really, really hard to have the quality control.
• 48:58
  I mean, it's phenomenal, but when we're talking about we're down to, like, the last half a percent on everything, like, it's pretty hard.
• 49:05
  Wins at Monaco, wins in, you know, another famous race, the British Grand Prix at Sewell.
• 49:09
  I mean, there's some special stuff there in your career, like there in Formula One.
• 49:13
  Is there a car in that Red Bull range when you drove for them that you got a soft sport for that's a bit of a favourite?
• 49:20
  Yeah, I think the RB6 probably still is the best car that I drove purely because I never really got on with the Pirelli tyres or would have loved to have, but they were so challenging to use and they were so, I thought, and they still probably are to a degree, we saw recent races in Formula 1 where the drivers are managing the tyres a lot.
• 49:41
  Which you hate, I think, don't you?
• 49:42
  Yeah, and I think a lot of the guys do.
• 49:43
  We see it after the race, sometimes post-race, in terms of how much they've got to manage them, which is...
• 49:48
  I find that we are arguably the best drivers in the world.
• 49:52
  You should be able to deal with everything, which absolutely, yes, you should be able to.
• 49:55
  Should you be able to manage the pace and drive that slow and be able to ask to do that, then obviously that was not always overstimulating.
• 50:04
  So that had a knock-on effect of your experience and your love for what car you drove.
• 50:08
  So I think the best cars, the experience, the RB5 and RB6 sensational car on the Bridgestones, you could just...
• 50:18
  push every single lap flat out is qualifying sensational i'm going to backtrack a little bit to the fw 26 which i never raced but i tested which is the montoya winning brazil car that was whatever it was i don't know 580 car weight with 950 horsepower that was that was a beast so yeah and
• 50:36
  You know, I think the 13 car, the Red Bull car, that was still pretty good.
• 50:40
  I mean, all the Red Bull cars were good, don't get me wrong.
• 50:43
  I mean, Adrian doesn't do many shitboxes.
• 50:45
  But in terms of the whole experience, I mean, if you look at tracks like Suzuka and Silverstone and those really, really high speed, just to look back at some of those laps now and go, those cars were phenomenal.
• 50:55
  We missed that V8, that V10 engine.
• 50:58
  We absolutely do.
• 50:59
  The audio, the drama, the sort of the punch and the emotion that comes from that.
• 51:08
  It's amazing as humans how much of a component that is for us.
• 51:11
  You know, if you go to an air show and you see a fighter jet, obviously it's like, wow, that's amazing.
• 51:15
  But obviously we're not going to go to too many glider shows and watch, you know.
• 51:18
  I mean, you will like gliders, but in terms of silent anything, a quiet concert.
• 51:25
  You know, we like music.
• 51:27
  We like noise.
• 51:28
  You know, hearing is a huge part of our emotion.
• 51:32
  So having that, you know, Adelaide, we all remember the Formula 1 cars in Adelaide.
• 51:37
  We remember, you know, the V12s and then the V10s.
• 51:39
  And, yeah, those piercing F1 cars and having 26 cars go to the first corner like that was amazing.
• 51:45
  was unbelievable.
• 51:46
  So the noise is down now.
• 51:48
  Yep, the noise is down and that's something which we're slowly, slowly, slowly getting used to.
• 51:53
  I mean, if you go to a Formula E race, obviously it's another level, obviously with no noise at all.
• 51:57
  You are a fiercely loyal guy and you stay loyal to Red Bull throughout your entire, that back end and successful end of your Formula One career.
• 52:04
  You're still loyal with Red Bull now for that matter.
• 52:06
  But...
• 52:07
  Was there an option to go to Ferrari?
• 52:09
  There was all this talk, and how serious did that get?
• 52:11
  Very serious, yep.
• 52:13
  2012, so I had meetings in Monaco with Stefano Di Menicali.
• 52:17
  It had been virtually agreed with Montezemolo at the time.
• 52:22
  So it was pretty much done, all agreed, until then Montezemolo changed his mind.
• 52:27
  He wanted...
• 52:29
  A one-on-one, so I wanted two years fixed as a contract, and he wanted one year and an option on the second year for 14, so I was 13 to 14.
• 52:37
  And I was, well, I want two years straight.
• 52:41
  I don't want to be sitting here at Monaco after having done four months with the team and talking about whether the option's going to be taken up.
• 52:46
  And Flavio agreed.
• 52:48
  He was on that.
• 52:49
  And then Bernie got involved, and Bernie was really trying to make it happen as well with Montezemolo.
• 52:54
  And then it was around...
• 52:56
  So that was Monaco time.
• 52:58
  And then two weeks later, I had the Montreal Grand Prix.
• 53:00
  And I remember getting out of the shower in the hotel there and I had a phone call with Flavio.
• 53:04
  And my gut feel was just like, I don't like the feel of this guy.
• 53:07
  I don't like the feel of it.
• 53:08
  Montezemolo, I'm not really sure.
• 53:10
  They really want me.
• 53:11
  And also, I had to take some people with me from Red Bull as well.
• 53:13
  That was also part of the criteria.
• 53:15
  So we had some names which I was working on as well to try and take from Red Bull.
• 53:20
  So I had to come with a package, which was all looking very good as well.
• 53:23
  So that was fine.
• 53:27
  I couldn't get my head around just doing one year.
• 53:31
  And also the other huge scenario that made it more challenging for me is I had a handshake with Portia.
• 53:37
  So Portia, at the end of 12, I had a handshake with him in the car park at Stuttgart with one of the board members.
• 53:44
  And I said that, yeah, in principle, I'll be here in 14.
• 53:48
  So that 13 year was last year in F1,
• 53:51
  potentially, you know, had it been a Ferrari, like, so if I fast forward, you know, so that was all in my mind as well going with Porsche.
• 53:59
  So, yeah.
• 54:01
  So then after the British Grand Prix that year, it was funny because I went to the track that day.
• 54:05
  Fernando was texting me saying, are you on?
• 54:07
  Are you on?
• 54:08
  What's happening?
• 54:08
  And I said, mate, it's looking average because Montezemolo's, you know, moving this option around because Fernando was keen for me to come but he was definitely more keen on some of the Red Bull personnel, I think, to make the car go faster.
• 54:21
  And I pretty much had made the announcement that I was going to stay at Red Bull.
• 54:26
  And Montezemolo wanted to see me on the Monday in Marinello after Silverstone that year.
• 54:32
  And I told Flavio, and Flavio said, you're not going.
• 54:35
  We're not going to fall for that.
• 54:36
  And so between Bernie, Dietrich and Montezemolo, then I agreed to stay at Red Bull.
• 54:41
  So you invite a number of journos.
• 54:44
  I was lucky enough to go to a dinner in Melbourne early in 13.
• 54:48
  I didn't realise it at the time, but in many respects, it was kind of a thank you.
• 54:53
  You'd made up your mind, mate, hadn't you?
• 54:55
  13 was the final year.
• 54:56
  The sport was going to go through a regulation change.
• 54:59
  Was it a difficult drug to give up?
• 55:00
  How hard was it to make that decision?
• 55:03
  I wanted to stop still driving really well and I knew that there were certain things that I used to be really good at that were getting harder to continue to do.
• 55:14
  And I was starting to see that.
• 55:16
  The team was seeing it a little bit and, you know, 37, 38, you're sort of like, it's getting in that window.
• 55:22
  And I...
• 55:25
  I wanted to, yeah, I just wanted to stop at a high level and even, I mean, Red Bull, Dietrich was great.
• 55:31
  He was like, you know, also that, you know, Dietrich sat on it for like eight months.
• 55:36
  He didn't tell anyone, didn't tell a soul.
• 55:38
  Dietrich was sensational.
• 55:39
  He said, look, even if you change your mind, then I want you to talk.
• 55:42
  to us and you know there's always a seat here for you so it was sensational how good Dietrich was and he also said if you're going to anyone else but Porsche then I'd have problems but with Porsche I have no issue he was very good with with that and he's straight with his word like that it's not that's just not small talk it was like okay if it was Mercedes he wouldn't be supporting me
• 55:59
  So that was important.
• 56:00
  And so I wanted to stop at the top, mate, which as best I could.
• 56:07
  And, you know, I'd been doing it a while, and I started my Formula 1 career quite late.
• 56:10
  You know, like I had been on the road for quite a while.
• 56:13
  Yes, I could have done maybe a few more seasons, which then would have put you in the 250 bracket Grand Prix.
• 56:17
  There's not many guys who've done 250 Grand Prix.
• 56:20
  So 215, getting pretty tired, yeah.
• 56:25
  you know, it was getting harder and harder and harder to stay on weight.
• 56:28
  Like, my weight was really critical at that time as well.
• 56:31
  And I was borderline frigging anorexic for, you know, for 10 months a year anyway.
• 56:35
  It was the floor of the regulations.
• 56:37
  Yeah, exactly.
• 56:37
  Yeah, yeah.
• 56:38
  So the skin folds were measured all the time and that was getting...
• 56:41
  So you can have all these excuses, but at the end of the day, you've got to be the one that steps up and does that, you know, every two weeks.
• 56:47
  So having been at the front and raced with the best guys and I thought, okay, well...
• 56:52
  13's enough I've got that I've got that done there's a new regulation coming do I want to immerse myself in a whole new bunch of regulations when I can go and do that with Porsche and the sports car and get going maybe a year early but definitely I was close like it was the right time to go and do I miss it absolutely like nothing replaces F1 nothing replaces like it's very hard to replace that
• 57:16
  The team, the environment, the mechanics, what they'll do for you, you know, just you see it's a real eye-opener when you leave F1 what level the team go to for their driver and what you're prepared to do for them.
• 57:30
  It's exceptional.
• 57:30
  It's phenomenal.
• 57:31
  And to see them walk away from the car, you'll get no – I mean –
• 57:36
  When they look at you and it's over to you, mate, there's no better feeling.
• 57:39
  And the millions of man-hours that go into preparing that car for you, holistically from all the departments week in, week out, nothing will compare to that.
• 57:47
  And that's just the way it is.
• 57:48
  You can't race Formula One forever, so you have to get your head around it.
• 57:52
  Yeah, so sure, I miss it, but I've got great...
• 57:55
  I mean, the memory is, you know, for life.
• 57:57
  You go sports car racing, life kind of goes full circle.
• 58:01
  You're back to perhaps tackle some unfinished business with a great mark in Porsche, the 919.
• 58:08
  I mean, I was lucky enough to go and spectate at Le Mans in 2015, and I remember ringing my dad going...
• 58:15
  I was kind of lost for words because they're a bit like a scale electrics car, man.
• 58:18
  They were so damn fast.
• 58:20
  They were so glued to the road, and the tech in them was remarkable.
• 58:24
  Yeah.
• 58:24
  I mean, it was a very brave concept, the 919.
• 58:27
  You know, so now we're talking hybrid.
• 58:28
  We've got a big electric motor on the front axle.
• 58:32
  We've got a combustion engine in the rear, so it's four-wheel drive.
• 58:35
  Getting those two synced together was amazing.
• 58:38
  was a challenge in the early days and the Germans were very big on working in simulation yeah it looks good like this well it's not in practice not like that mate you know we're gonna wear tires out we're gonna it's gonna be a handful of drive and so we had to work the interface from driver to simulation and and working hard on that and getting to believe what was right in the early days was was was pivotal yeah it was any it was incredible still is it was an incredible car that car was was was phenomenally successful and I loved help
• 59:05
  Again, with a young team, I suppose, and not a blank checkbook, but, you know, obviously funds was very, very good, but you still have to – you can burn some serious cash in the wrong areas if you're not focused on what you need to work on to make – look, I said guys, I used to take the stopwatch to a lot of them.
• 59:19
  This is what we're working towards.
• 59:20
  This is what we're here for.
• 59:22
  You know, we're not here for, you know, feathering each other's nests and making sure what, you know –
• 59:27
  There's guys in certain departments that aren't delivering.
• 59:29
  You need to understand why.
• 59:30
  You know, if there's some guys go to the track and I say to the boss, well, mate, I haven't spoke to him for nine months and he hasn't spoke to me for nine months.
• 59:37
  What, if he's not here, is he, are we missing him?
• 59:39
  Well, probably not.
• 59:40
  Well, we don't need him here.
• 59:41
  You know, like we've got to trim stuff up and get the fat out and go racing.
• 59:44
  We want races.
• 59:45
  We want racing mentality.
• 59:47
  That was fun.
• 59:48
  I really enjoyed that.
• 59:49
  And I think when we got there, we had two people in the aero department, which I'd flip my chips over that.
• 59:53
  And it's just like, you know, but the hybrid and engine and all the Porsche stuff and all the vital organs they were awesome at.
• 59:59
  And they were getting, you know, super excited about that because that was what was going to win Le Mans.
• 1:00:03
  That was going to what was going to win the world championships.
• 1:00:06
  So then we got that up to like 30 people and started to reinvest in areas where...
• 1:00:11
  it was going to be more comfortable for us.
• 1:00:13
  I said, if we invest in these departments, there's going to be less mistakes from the drivers, the car's going to be more predictable, we're going to have an easier product to use in all conditions, even in the rain, at night, on slicks, whatever, you know.
• 1:00:24
  So that was fun.
• 1:00:25
  And just with sports cars, you see how versatile they are and how tough they are.
• 1:00:30
  You know, they've got to handle so many scenarios, as you touched on in terms of Le Mans one side of it, you know, the long straights.
• 1:00:39
  dealing with back markers, there might be a bit of contact here and there.
• 1:00:41
  And then also operationally, that's where Porsche were just exceptionally, even blew out in Toyota way, just in terms of how good we were in the pit lane in terms of if we needed to change noses or rear ends.
• 1:00:54
  That's also the winning mentality within what we had to design there.
• 1:00:59
  The car, yeah.
• 1:01:00
  And the car design was designed like that.
• 1:01:02
  Like, okay, this is fine, but we also have to prepare for
• 1:01:05
  when the shoot is the fan how easy is his thing to work on if someone brings it back to the garage you know a bit busted up you know drive shaft for example the front front axle if you take a front corner off it's not just like pop a front corner you got a drive shaft involved there and it's hard like that's really really that's a nightmare but we had it pretty slick each corner could be done you know in around 12 minutes which was pretty exceptional so yeah yeah
• 1:01:30
  For the 919, tell people a little bit more about the car.
• 1:01:33
  If my memory's right, we're talking V4 turbo, but the energy recovery systems were unbelievable in it.
• 1:01:42
  And does that require a knack with driving?
• 1:01:45
  Because you're trying to balance all that stuff, aren't you, as you go?
• 1:01:49
  Yeah, very small capacity, 2-litre V4.
• 1:01:52
  It had a very sophisticated turbo system on it.
• 1:01:55
  Obviously, it was a turbo charge, which we got a lot of our power from.
• 1:02:01
  And then we had like a little AER system, which was...
• 1:02:04
  The AER system was another recovery.
• 1:02:08
  It was a high-velocity turbine, basically, which... ..off the exhaust gas, which then would also charge the battery in the background, which...
• 1:02:16
  So, and that was extremely difficult to get reliable.
• 1:02:20
  And that was another probably 25% of the charging that we needed on top of the brake system.
• 1:02:26
  So, without the AR, you were knackered.
• 1:02:28
  So, you needed that on top.
• 1:02:29
  It was a very efficient way to get energy back.
• 1:02:33
  The money we spent on that, and it's also on some of our road, I mean, it was on the 918.
• 1:02:37
  And so, that was a really nice...
• 1:02:39
  piece of engineering which we could justify into our road car development too so um and to this day that's the it's the lowest quality part that's around on so they're doing the 919 tribute tour now and that part is the trickiest part to get and to build still so it's a really trick piece of kit
• 1:02:58
  And then braking-wise, so the way that you would regenerate or harvest, top the battery up off the braking energy, so obviously the way you'd use the brake pedal was very important.
• 1:03:09
  So if you used a lot of peak pressure initially, then sort of wound your brake pressure off.
• 1:03:14
  instead of having like a bit more of a wet pedal map.
• 1:03:16
  So a little bit earlier on the brakes, not so much peak pressure, but hold the brake on a bit longer, the battery would love that, or what we'd call the SOC, which is state of charge.
• 1:03:24
  The state of charge of the battery would love that.
• 1:03:26
  So you had to learn all of this stuff really, really quick.
• 1:03:30
  And often the engineers, we ring in your lot because obviously if you hit traffic, for example, then your braking would be very, very different so that you wouldn't be charging as much.
• 1:03:36
  Or if you're in clean air, the battery would be, you know...
• 1:03:40
  charging in a much more consistent way so that was a challenge and then it would rain and then you'd have a whole new cat you know a bit different kettle of fish again so um challenging car on the interface also you you had to manage a lot from the car i mean a lot of radio there was a lot of radio for understanding all the systems and moving things around um and you can set the car up with a balance too with all of that so how you would you know the regeneration on front and rear axles to make sure you can pull your undersea down i have some overs you know you could really move that around a lot so that was that was quite interesting um
• 1:04:09
  Was it a joy to draw?
• 1:04:10
  Yeah, it was.
• 1:04:11
  In the end, we got it really, you know, once we got, so the front diffuser to start with, the 14 car was a disaster.
• 1:04:17
  The whole front end of the car was, we just weren't doing the right R&D, we weren't getting the right correlation from wind tunnel to car, and that was bad.
• 1:04:26
  And then CFD, so, you know, the software to measure aerodynamics as well and computer fluid dynamics and things like that was not working.
• 1:04:35
  We got that much better in 15 to 16 and we woke the front of the car up, literally woke the front diffuser up in terms of how it would work.
• 1:04:41
  And then that brought me alive because I was then back into sort of more Formula One territory in terms of having a front end that was really strong and I could drive the car quick.
• 1:04:48
  Podium at Le Mans, you win the World Endurance Championship.
• 1:04:52
  Of all the things you've succeeded at, mate, how much did that mean to you?
• 1:04:56
  Yeah, the championship was sensational, but I think the thing that I take the most out of that whole program was I believe that, you know, without being blown a bit of smoke up my own ass, I suppose, is I think I had...
• 1:05:11
  One of, if not the most, impact on making the car be as fast, in terms of technical, what we needed to work on and get the car working.
• 1:05:19
  We had some great teammates, so it was sensational.
• 1:05:21
  Endurance-wise, like Timo, know what Timo Bernard and Levy, and those guys are super experienced on that.
• 1:05:27
  But in terms of actually...
• 1:05:28
  Getting the departments to knuckle down in areas that are going to move the stopwatch and make us do our job better, I really enjoy that.
• 1:05:35
  I mean, Lamar picks you.
• 1:05:36
  I led the race every year there.
• 1:05:37
  Lamar picks you in terms of how you're going to win or lose that race.
• 1:05:44
  15 was tough.
• 1:05:46
  BH got the penalty.
• 1:05:47
  We had a 60-second stop go there.
• 1:05:51
  And what was it?
• 1:05:53
  16 with the water pump, which we were leading there, and the water pump was... You know, that was...
• 1:05:58
  I know that still hurts Porsche this day because they really... Obviously, you know, I think you talk to the big wigs and they wanted me to experience a victory with Porsche, which clearly I did as well, and that one really hurt them because we never had a water pump failure in that car.
• 1:06:10
  Yeah.
• 1:06:10
  I remember Timo coming to the bedroom, wake me up, and he was like in tears and was like, man, well, it's not meant to be, buddy.
• 1:06:17
  You know, yeah, so that was it.
• 1:06:19
  The BH you talk about is Brendan Hartley, who these days, of course, is with Toro Rosso in Formula One.
• 1:06:25
  You mentioned in the early part of the podcast about, you know, a potential opportunity with IndyCar.
• 1:06:31
  I know you were always very upfront with your mum, very upfront with Annie that you were never going to go and do oval racing and you remained true to that.
• 1:06:40
  Sadly, as you said, you lost some friends in Danny Weldon and a former teammate in Justin Wilson there.
• 1:06:46
  What about Bathurst, mate?
• 1:06:47
  Everyone often wonders why you didn't have a crack at the 1,000.
• 1:06:50
  I mean, it's a vastly different category, I know.
• 1:06:53
  I think that – I mean, I raced here in Formula Ford, so I do know the track, but in 94.
• 1:06:58
  I couldn't do it until – I mean, I suppose now is the only time because when I was doing – Suzuka always – I mean, when it was in an F1, forget it.
• 1:07:06
  I mean, I can't do baths when I was in F1.
• 1:07:08
  And then I went to sports cars, and it always was around Fuji time, so there was always a clash.
• 1:07:14
  Roland Dane always asks me, I mean, Abba Dabba, there was a few years where he's like, come on, you know, my phone number, give me a ring and we can sort of test out.
• 1:07:23
  And I just thought that, you know, the cars are so, the guys are so plugged into those type of cars.
• 1:07:29
  I mean, maybe I will drive one one day, but in terms of extra, I think the frustration level for me in terms of...
• 1:07:35
  how heavy their cars are, how...
• 1:07:37
  They behave.
• 1:07:37
  Yeah, they behave.
• 1:07:38
  They're very, you know, they're very, very...
• 1:07:41
  I mean, they are even the guys.
• 1:07:41
  So they're like a docile...
• 1:07:44
  Yes.
• 1:07:44
  You know, there's a lot of travel.
• 1:07:46
  Relative for your use.
• 1:07:47
  A lot of travel in them.
• 1:07:48
  And, you know, I drive one reasonably, okay, but in terms of being super, super quick, I mean, it would be probably pretty challenging.
• 1:07:55
  And I'm open to that.
• 1:07:56
  And even, to be honest, even Porsche say, why don't you drive the GT car?
• 1:07:59
  It's for the exact same reason.
• 1:08:00
  Like, when you've come from...
• 1:08:02
  the sort of muscle memory and the frame rate of the cars that I've been used to for like 20 years, or let's call it from 97 to now, yeah, so a good part of 18 years when I've been driving, have been 20 or 25 seconds a lap faster than that.
• 1:08:20
  So that's a shift for you to get your head round, to put something where you feel like you're driving on the limit and doing a good job, but you're still 25 seconds a lap slower than what you used to.
• 1:08:31
  Takes some doing.
• 1:08:32
  So I think the race is great.
• 1:08:35
  I mean, Bathurst is a sensational race.
• 1:08:36
  I love...
• 1:08:37
  I'm frustrated with the safety cars.
• 1:08:38
  Now, obviously, over the top, it's like that.
• 1:08:40
  If anyone goes in, they have to have a safety car, but obviously, that's racing in general.
• 1:08:43
  There's just more and more safety cars, which does my head in.
• 1:08:45
  But there's less green flag racing.
• 1:08:48
  But...
• 1:08:50
  I mean, it's always good to watch.
• 1:08:51
  The guys are on the limb.
• 1:08:52
  You see the cars are under tied.
• 1:08:53
  You know, they're moving around.
• 1:08:55
  And the commitment of the top looks sensational.
• 1:08:57
  You can see the guys that make a difference, you know.
• 1:09:00
  And, you know, legends like Craig and those guys who have just been so good for the sport.
• 1:09:05
  They've been around forever.
• 1:09:06
  And then you've got these young guys coming in at Penske now with, you know, Scotty and those guys.
• 1:09:11
  And it's good to watch.
• 1:09:13
  But also it's...
• 1:09:17
  There's enough young guys doing well.
• 1:09:18
  You know, what is it for a washed up old dog?
• 1:09:20
  Yeah, I've done well overseas.
• 1:09:22
  I really enjoyed it.
• 1:09:24
  But it's not, in a way, yes, it's a bit sort of, it's a bit wanky to come back and say, well, I'll have a little go of this on the way out sort of thing.
• 1:09:31
  I don't really need to do it.
• 1:09:33
  So nowadays you have an ambassadorial role with Porsche.
• 1:09:36
  Am I right in saying you've given your racing licence?
• 1:09:39
  Have you handed that back in?
• 1:09:40
  Yeah, I haven't got a licence this year at the moment.
• 1:09:42
  So, well, cams, I always had to go through cams to get it because if I ever did well, it scored a podium when I was racing in Sports Guys Ref, and then they'd play the Australian National Anthem.
• 1:09:52
  So it is done through cams and then it goes back through.
• 1:09:54
  But, yeah, I haven't got my racing licence, so...
• 1:09:58
  What is Mark?
• 1:09:58
  We've been doing it.
• 1:09:59
  I know we've seen stuff about Mission E and things like that.
• 1:10:02
  What's your program entirely?
• 1:10:04
  Well, I do 10 Formula One races for Channel 4 on UK TV commentary.
• 1:10:08
  So that's do all the live races there with DC, David Coulthard.
• 1:10:12
  And, yeah, do quite a lot of work for Porsche now.
• 1:10:16
  That's on road car side, mainly on our new project, so a bit of GT 911 work.
• 1:10:22
  Obviously, the Mission E car is coming now too, which we're excited about.
• 1:10:27
  So that's been enjoyable.
• 1:10:29
  And Formula E, we're going to do that soon.
• 1:10:31
  So really just a bit of...
• 1:10:33
  I suppose leaning on me also in a little bit of a representative and consultancy way too, which I enjoy doing.
• 1:10:39
  I mean, you know, I love the brand.
• 1:10:40
  I've been buying Porsches since, you know, I could.
• 1:10:43
  And I'm getting more and more close to how they tick, which takes time because they are different in terms of, you know, culturally from how we operate and go racing.
• 1:10:53
  But they're a sensational brand, and that's fun to...
• 1:10:57
  Work with them and work with that.
• 1:11:00
  And Red Bull, I do quite a bit with them.
• 1:11:02
  I'm with Marc Marquez next week with a Formula One car.
• 1:11:06
  That's cool.
• 1:11:07
  So helping him drive that.
• 1:11:09
  And Danny Pedroza and Tony Carolli, who's a motocross legend.
• 1:11:13
  A bit of stuff here and there with them.
• 1:11:16
  That's the fun stuff, but also in the background, trying to help Red Bull do things better here and there wherever I can.
• 1:11:22
  And flying the heli when I can, which is fun.
• 1:11:24
  And then Aussie Grid Apparel too.
• 1:11:27
  So I love the outdoors, love my training, love my fitness, always have done.
• 1:11:30
  So that's been really, really good.
• 1:11:32
  And as of this week, we've just had our biggest week of sales ever.
• 1:11:35
  So it continues to go from strength to strength in the UK and here in Australia.
• 1:11:38
  So I love the clothing industry and having all the lessons and things that I've learned from car racing.
• 1:11:44
  It sounds bizarre, but even things like suits and just how we can make things even better from the fabric selection and stitching and all those things which I've enjoyed.
• 1:11:52
  Busy enough, mate.
• 1:11:52
  I think last year was like 75 flights.
• 1:11:54
  This year we're probably close again.
• 1:11:56
  So the phone's still ringing and, yeah, 19 looks as busy.
• 1:11:59
  But, yeah.
• 1:12:01
  Let's do a couple of quick things to wrap up here.
• 1:12:02
  You've been very good with your time.
• 1:12:04
  We'll call it a quick shift.
• 1:12:05
  What was your – I think we covered it a little bit earlier.
• 1:12:07
  What's Mark Webber's first car?
• 1:12:09
  The Corona, wasn't it?
• 1:12:11
  Yep, 1969 Toyota Corona.
• 1:12:13
  Worst car you've ever owned?
• 1:12:14
  Yeah, it would be the station wagon Holden Commodore.
• 1:12:17
  Okay.
• 1:12:18
  Your daily drive now is?
• 1:12:21
  911 G3 Touring.
• 1:12:23
  Is there a car on the resto list, the restoration list?
• 1:12:27
  Do you, you know, is that not your thing?
• 1:12:30
  Would you just rather have the latest and greatest?
• 1:12:32
  Well, as Mr. Porsche always said, the last car is always the best.
• 1:12:35
  But I think a 959.
• 1:12:37
  Like, I like the 959, also the Carrera GT.
• 1:12:41
  But, yeah, bit of a soft touch for some of the Ferraris.
• 1:12:44
  But, yeah, I mean, even some old Aussie stuff, a bit of American muscle.
• 1:12:49
  I mean, I'm...
• 1:12:51
  Anyone that's got a beautiful, that's preserved something really, really nice, I'm not too fixed on one particular car.
• 1:12:56
  Have you kept any little, well, we know like Mick Doohan has kept some bikes from his career, have you kept any mementos from your racing career?
• 1:13:03
  Yeah, sure.
• 1:13:04
  I mean, I've got all my helmets and suits, all key helmets and suits, so I've got all those and boots and all the apparel that I had key victories in and key races, first Formula One race, first Formula 3000 victory and Porsche, you know, whatever, Monaco and all key victories there, which is great.
• 1:13:20
  I've got my British Grand Prix winning Formula 1 car from 2010.
• 1:13:24
  Also won the Hungarian Grand Prix in that car as well.
• 1:13:28
  So that's good, the RB6.
• 1:13:30
  And Porsche gave me just the steering wheel from my last race too, which was nice from the 919.
• 1:13:36
  So, yeah, so I've got a couple of nice things.
• 1:13:38
  You've had some good ones during your career.
• 1:13:40
  Best teammate?
• 1:13:42
  Best teammate was, I mean, probably Seb in terms of the hardest nut to crack.
• 1:13:45
  He was tough.
• 1:13:46
  But in terms of the most fun and the most enjoyable was sports guy days because I had Schneider and then I had Brendan and Timo.
• 1:13:52
  Final one for you.
• 1:13:53
  Is there a fave piece of road that you enjoy driving on or perhaps even a favourite racetrack?
• 1:13:58
  Favourite racetrack, I mean, Nordschleife in Germany is incredible.
• 1:14:01
  It's an amazing track to drive on.
• 1:14:04
  Even in a streetcar, it's just something that everyone should drive on the Nordschleife in Germany, at least to go there and have a feel of that.
• 1:14:11
  And I think, you know, driving anywhere in...
• 1:14:14
  in the mountains in Europe.
• 1:14:15
  I mean, if you're in the Dolomites in Italy or in French Alps or anywhere where it's got those beautiful, beautiful long windy roads or some nice hairpins and you have a chance to stretch your legs.
• 1:14:29
  Some of the cars over there, that's enjoyable.
• 1:14:31
  So, yeah, I've done some really cool road trips over there.
• 1:14:34
  Austria is stunning as well.
• 1:14:35
  I mean, the roads are super smooth and really,
• 1:14:37
  road kills relatively light, which is always an issue at night, and obviously it certainly is in this country, but obviously you can't drive that quick here.
• 1:14:43
  But doing more road driving now, actually, so it's picking off some more roads, which I'm enjoying.
• 1:14:48
  Thank you for spending some time with us.
• 1:14:50
  Congratulations on everything you've done from World Endurance Championship, wins at some of the most famous tracks in Formula One, a stellar career that is, as your handle in social media says, mate, it was born out of grit, Aussie grit, and you, you know, pat on the back.
• 1:15:08
  Thanks, mate.
• 1:15:09
  Yeah, no, it was, there were certainly loads more guys with more talent than I had, but I just grafted away and did what I did.
• 1:15:14
  And yeah, I managed to,
• 1:15:17
  To have a long career over there and I think being from Australia and having a crack, it's a tremendous opportunity to do that for our country and obviously it's a very personal thing to hang in there for as long as you can and I really, really enjoyed it.
• 1:15:29
  But I had good people around me.
• 1:15:30
  I mean, at the end of the day, I was always around people around me so I had sensational advice and good people and I worked with the best people so that made my job a lot easier.
• 1:15:41
  Rusty's Garage is written and presented by me, Greg Rust.
• 1:15:45
  Series producer and editor is Alex Mitchell.
• 1:15:49
  Audio production by Darcy Thompson.
• 1:15:58
  Listener.