Latest / The Curve / RTC134: How financial literacy can change your life, with Norma Cassius.

Transcript

RTC134: How financial literacy can change your life, with Norma Cassius. · The Curve

0:00
You've helped thousands and thousands of people improve their financial education.
0:05
What do you think would be the most common misconception that people had about money management in general?
0:10
80% of it is about financial literacy, 20% is about the money.
0:15
The father of my free children, he hated my strength at the age of 21, I bought my first property.
0:21
And so I said to him, you know, let's do it together.
0:24
He went and talked to his brothers and he came back and he said,
0:27
I'm not by no house with no woman.
0:29
Regardless of how great you might think your partner is,
0:32
they're taking control of the finances, have that knowledge.
0:36
Money is one of the number one things that, you know, break down a relationship.
0:40
If you're not able to manage your money, the impact of that on your mental health,
0:45
it will just floor you. Budget is empowering.
0:49
Because once you know what you've got to spend, you're in control.
0:52
If it was just documenting your income and expenditure,
0:55
everybody would be doing it and nobody would be in debt.
0:57
It's actually a skill and a technique and the layers to it.
1:00
Like I said, it's not what you have.
1:02
It's what you do with what you have.
1:07
So before we dive into today's episode,
1:09
we wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that we'll be discussing some pretty sensitive topics,
1:12
including domestic and financial abuse as well as miscarriages.
1:15
We understand these subjects can be pretty difficult to hear.
1:18
So if at any point you feel uncomfortable,
1:21
please feel free to pause or skip this episode.
1:23
If you or someone you know need support,
1:26
we'll be including some helpful resources in the show notes too.
1:30
Welcome to Raising the Curve.
1:32
A podcast designed to teach you everything that you need to know to be better with your money.
1:35
Come and learn alongside me, Sophie Hallwright,
1:38
a total beginner from the finance expert Victoria Harris.
1:41
So I've asked all of the questions you wish you could,
1:44
so that finance, investing and growing your wealth actually makes sense.
1:47
Yes, it's expert education, but that we promise will not be boring.
1:50
And in the wise words of sheer,
1:52
My mum said to me,
1:53
You know, sweetheart, one day you should settle down and marry a rich man.
1:57
My mum, I am a rich man.
1:59
Come and talk and learn and laugh with us,
2:01
because together we really can raise the curve.
2:06
This is one of those conversations, Vic, that I was,
2:09
I want to say speechless for, but I wasn't really,
2:12
because I knew I had to pay attention and ask questions.
2:15
But it was one of the most engaging and insightful conversations I've had in my entire life
2:21
and not just on the podcast.
2:23
I had no idea what the time was.
2:25
I was just engrossed with everything that she was saying.
2:28
It was quite incredible.
2:30
She was insane.
2:32
And to the point that halfway through the record,
2:34
we had to run outside and ask the studio if we could extend the booking
2:38
because we were just in such good conversation that we didn't want it to stop.
2:44
And we wanted to keep going and really capture this conversation for all of you,
2:48
because it was, I don't even know if we need to interrupt anymore.
2:52
No, I think we just don't even waste any more time.
2:54
This is a slightly longer episode,
2:57
but highly recommend listening to the entire thing.
2:59
It was just, yeah, let's just shut up and go straight to her.
3:03
This is Norma Cassius.
3:05
Norma, can we just start by talking about your Jamaican heritage?
3:15
Because I think there's a lot of people who are listening to this podcast
3:18
that might not know a lot about what that looks like and how it inspires your life
3:23
and how you live now.
3:24
And I wondered if you would be able to give us just a bit of context
3:27
as to how that's influenced your life, but also really what is Jamaican culture?
3:31
Jamaican culture, chicken.
3:34
Bob Marley.
3:36
Oh my goodness.
3:37
It's a really relaxed,
3:41
it's a slow-paced, relaxed environment where everybody chats to everybody.
3:46
Do you know what I mean?
3:47
So you feel so welcomed, just as you step off the plane basically,
3:51
the food they want to share their culture, they want to take you out.
3:55
If you used to go there and use just to meet some people randomly,
3:58
they'd say, there's a club tonight.
4:00
Do you want to come?
4:01
Going back to my dad, so he was born in 1914, I think it was.
4:06
So he was a very sharp man.
4:09
I think that's where I get my dress sense from,
4:11
because back in the days he was like a always suited and booted
4:15
and he had his overcoat, over his shoulders and his liver brogues
4:19
and what is gold teeth and that, and he had really pretty hair.
4:22
So for black people, when it comes to hair and complexion,
4:27
you know, in terms of being light-skinned or whatever,
4:30
light-skinned people seem to have been more favoured than darker-skinned people.
4:35
Even within Jamaica.
4:37
Oh wow, absolutely.
4:39
I think it still goes on today.
4:41
Not as much, they call it colorism.
4:43
Does that mean, is it similar to the privilege when it comes to white privilege
4:47
and is it almost the same concept but within its own culture?
4:52
Absolutely.
4:53
So people are favoured for particular jobs or careers based on...
4:56
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.
4:59
And in fact, in Jamaica, a lot of people have actually bleached their skin
5:03
in the Caribbean, bleached their skin just to get this lighter complexion.
5:08
So it's a big thing.
5:10
And then when you talk about the hair, now that's another thing.
5:13
We call it like coolly.
5:14
So it's basically a black person having a child with an Asian person
5:19
and then obviously get a different texture of hair, right?
5:22
So my hair's a little bit like it, but my dad's was really pretty.
5:25
And so for him, he thought he was like,
5:27
I don't want to tell him it was Archie.
5:29
He thought he was really special.
5:31
And they used to treat him like he was really special because of that.
5:34
And I would call him an undercover entrepreneur back then
5:38
because back in the 50s, he had two houses and a dry cleaners in Jamaica.
5:42
And then he came to the UK as part of the Windrush generation
5:47
and he bought the largest house on the road.
5:51
What's the Windrush generation?
5:53
So that was when the UK went to like the Caribbean
5:56
because back in like the 50s,
5:58
they didn't have enough people to man the NHS and certain roles.
6:03
And so they went to the Caribbean and you know,
6:06
asked them to come over to help fill these roles.
6:09
And so that's when a lot of people from the Caribbean
6:12
came over to England.
6:14
Have you not heard of the Windrush generation?
6:15
Wow, it's a big thing.
6:18
Yeah, so it's a really looking up.
6:19
It's a real big thing.
6:20
The Windrush generation.
6:21
So he came over as part of that.
6:24
And they was like promised all these things.
6:26
Like the roads will be paved with gold.
6:28
And there'd be all these opportunities.
6:30
But it was a complete opposite.
6:31
And so I think the English people at that time
6:34
was quite angry with all these people coming over to like take their jobs
6:39
and whatever.
6:40
And so they couldn't get nowhere to live.
6:42
So like couples act to live together with other couples
6:45
and they was living in one room and there was a saying
6:48
it was no blacks, no Irish and no dogs.
6:51
And so it was very hard for black people to get anywhere to live
6:56
and so they had to live like with friends and you know,
6:59
group together.
7:00
They didn't win any Irish in their houses either or any dogs.
7:03
That's a category that they put people in.
7:06
So yeah, so my dad being the savvy man that he was,
7:10
he bought his house.
7:11
Properties were bought by black people back then.
7:14
Because they couldn't, they couldn't rent anywhere.
7:16
So that was the, and so they used to have a partner.
7:19
So what that was was a club together and they all,
7:22
you know, somebody who thought that would be in charge of that
7:24
and they would all save money.
7:26
And put it together.
7:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:28
Put it together and help each other buy properties.
7:30
It's amazing.
7:31
Yeah. And that's how they was able to buy their properties.
7:33
And so when one person wanted their partner money,
7:36
then obviously they'd free that money up and then it was
7:39
not like the pyramid scheme.
7:40
I was about to say it all myself.
7:42
Similar, something similar to that.
7:44
But that's how they was able to buy their properties.
7:47
But my dad was a businessman anyway.
7:49
It was hard for them.
7:50
Even though they was promised all these jobs,
7:52
it still wasn't straightforward.
7:53
And so just imagine they're coming from a hot climate
7:55
to a cold climate when they came.
7:57
It was like winter.
7:58
Never experienced winter like this before.
8:00
And then not having, not having nowhere to live.
8:03
And that struggle and that challenge.
8:05
It really was pressurised.
8:07
But I guess, you know, our trials make us strong.
8:10
Yeah, that's where we build resilience.
8:13
And they're quite resourceful and resilient people anyway.
8:16
And how old was your dad?
8:17
And did he come here by himself?
8:20
Or he came here by himself.
8:22
But then he sent for my mom, saved up my money up.
8:25
You know, you got a job eventually saved up the money
8:27
and sent for my mom.
8:28
So you were together and she moved?
8:30
Yes.
8:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:32
And were you born at the start?
8:33
No, none of us.
8:34
Yeah.
8:35
So there's six children.
8:36
I'm the five girls and one boy.
8:38
I'm the youngest girl.
8:39
They say, I'm spoiled.
8:40
I don't think so.
8:41
So yeah, I'm the youngest girl.
8:44
And then my brother was the youngest.
8:46
It was very challenging for them.
8:48
And obviously that, you know, just basic things like hot water.
8:53
We never had it in our house.
8:55
We had to boil pots and kettles to get wash.
8:59
And we had like metal baths.
9:01
And we, my mom used to boil the pots and fill up the bath.
9:04
So we could literally have baths.
9:06
And so this was your childhood.
9:08
You remember it.
9:09
Oh, yeah.
9:10
Because, you know, my dad was very frugal.
9:12
I think he gave my mom the same amount of housekeeping for a decade.
9:15
But she had to make it work.
9:17
Do you mean my sentence of his income?
9:19
Yes.
9:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:21
So for example, just say it was 50 pound he gave her from day one.
9:25
He gave that same 50 pound for 10 years.
9:27
But he wanted the same things from that money.
9:30
Not taking it to consider it inflation.
9:31
It's like, what's that?
9:33
And so coming from the Caribbean, my dad wanted the best of everything.
9:36
Hard food, which is like, yum, green banana, dash in.
9:41
And all of that was quite expensive.
9:43
Obviously, it had to be imported.
9:45
So was he frugal with his money?
9:47
Or he expected your mother to be frugal.
9:50
Like he was frugal with his money.
9:53
Yeah.
9:54
Every day, my mom, I'm not giving you a penny more.
9:56
But then he expected her to buy the nice things with that.
10:00
Yeah.
10:01
And she was saying, okay, my mom was amazing.
10:04
She was a woman of substance because looking back now, reflecting back now,
10:08
it couldn't have been easy.
10:10
What she had to do, she was even making her clothes underwear.
10:14
That's what, you know, it went in that farm.
10:16
Is it because your dad wasn't providing enough?
10:19
And so she just had to make it work.
10:21
And that's where I drew from that because it felt like we had everything.
10:26
We lacked nothing.
10:27
And looking back now, I know that couldn't have been easy.
10:30
It was definitely a skill.
10:31
It's quite crazy to think now, like particularly when you're older,
10:34
the sacrifices your parents make.
10:36
Like everyone's got their own stories.
10:38
But also how much they managed to hide it.
10:40
Like the fact that you really felt like you had everything you needed.
10:44
Did you feel an underlying level of money was a stress
10:49
or that your dad was frugal or that your mum was struggling with the amount she had
10:54
or from what you saw was it just all okay?
10:58
All okay.
10:59
I didn't experience any of that.
11:02
Some people did.
11:04
And what I understand now is it becomes down to you as a parent how you convey that.
11:10
Because if you're stressed and depressed and you hear all those money arguments,
11:15
the children are absorbing that, right?
11:18
And then they take that on themselves and then that affects how their relationship with money.
11:24
And what from that do you think that you've taken into your kind of adult life
11:35
in terms of like how you view money or like frugalness or spending or saving all of that?
11:40
Yeah.
11:42
At one point in my life I became a single mother.
11:45
I had three children, six years and under.
11:48
I had a monkey to pay a car to run all in a part-time salary.
11:53
So at that point when that happened, I felt if my mum can manage with six,
11:58
I must be able to manage with three.
12:00
So straight away every year, although I worked part-time,
12:03
I was able to fly my children out abroad.
12:07
And my colleagues were like, normal, how are you doing this?
12:10
Because I was working with people that were working full-time
12:13
or had partners, husbands, whatever.
12:16
And they still weren't able to fly, you know, take a holiday every year.
12:19
And it's because I knew my numbers.
12:22
And I worked with what I had.
12:25
So I didn't have any credit or anything like that, but I made it work.
12:28
So I mean, I used to be shopping like four supermarkets every week.
12:32
When the children went to bed, I'll be sitting down calculating every pound and every penny.
12:37
Years like my daughter said to me, mummy, even now I hear your story.
12:41
I never knew you had that struggle or you had that challenge.
12:45
And did you think that you got that from your mother?
12:47
Absolutely.
12:48
And thankfully, even though I was in that zone,
12:51
I didn't realise that they didn't know what was going on financially.
12:54
Do you know what I mean?
12:55
Because I made it work.
12:57
And so when we would take them on holiday,
12:59
they would have rucksacks filled to the brim.
13:02
Now they weren't with electrical toys or dollars.
13:04
It was rice, it was sugar, it was biscuits.
13:07
But you know, I suspect that's me being resourceful, right?
13:10
So when we got to our destination,
13:12
all that to buy was like me and veg, everything else we had.
13:16
And you know, somebody said to me, you know,
13:18
why did you, because every year in the bank,
13:20
we got a bonus at annual bonus,
13:22
because I was working in finance at that time.
13:24
I've been in finance for like, I was working in finance for 20 years.
13:27
And they said, why did you use that bonus on a holiday?
13:31
And I said to them, I struggled the whole year to make ends meet.
13:36
I have a mortgage.
13:37
So for me, that's a kind of investment.
13:39
Let me show my children a different side of life.
13:43
Oh, I have so many things I'd love to ask you.
13:46
When, when you were in those times of counting your pounds
13:52
and then really on top of what you were spending
13:55
and being as resourceful as you could,
13:57
what were some of the biggest learnings throughout that time
14:00
going from probably having two salaries,
14:02
maybe a full time and your part time?
14:06
What kinds of things did you decide to either pull back on,
14:09
spend or not spend?
14:11
What were some of your big learnings
14:13
from what was obviously a really intense
14:15
and probably quite lonely time
14:18
when you're not wanting your kids to feel like they need to be there for you?
14:22
You know, you were really keeping them separate
14:23
from what was going on by the sounds of things.
14:25
What kinds of things did you learn throughout those years?
14:29
Well, just taking a step back.
14:31
The father of my free children,
14:34
it was a very abusive relationship.
14:37
And so becoming a single mother was a kind of a relief in my respect
14:43
because, you know, he was very controlling.
14:46
It was a domestic violence relationship.
14:48
He hated my strength.
14:50
And so every time I became pregnant, I was vulnerable, right?
14:54
And so that's when, you know, he would get even worse
14:57
with violence and just the way he spoke to me and the way he treated me.
15:01
It was just awful.
15:03
I remember back then, in the 80s,
15:06
we used to give me the money weekly on a Friday.
15:09
Come the Wednesday.
15:11
My stomach would be turning over.
15:13
I would have headaches.
15:15
You know, it would just be awful.
15:17
The anxiety, my anxiety was through the roof
15:19
because one, I didn't know whether I was going to get any money on the Friday.
15:24
Two, if I did get any money, how much it would be?
15:27
And three, would I get it before the shop's closed?
15:31
So I had to deal with that on a weekly basis.
15:34
And nine times out of ten, it would be an altercation
15:37
with regards to getting the money in one way or another.
15:41
Was this before you separated?
15:43
This was before I separated.
15:45
And then I got to a point and I said, you know, my mum said,
15:49
my mum is going to send you to good mires.
15:51
That's the mental hospital.
15:54
She said, if you stay with this man,
15:56
and you know, anybody in a relationship like that,
15:59
everybody can be telling you, your family, your friends,
16:02
you need to leave, you need to leave.
16:04
But you have to get to that point where you're ready.
16:07
And I had to get to that point where I was not only physical ready,
16:11
mentally ready, psychologically ready,
16:13
and spiritually ready because I'm a Christian.
16:16
And when I got to that place,
16:18
I had to talk about that, my scape plan, you know,
16:21
of how I made it happen and how I left him.
16:24
And was it financially, is that what you mean?
16:27
You had to make a real plan to actually be a financial plan.
16:30
Even though the money was so unstable,
16:33
I'd rather be without that money and have that some kind of peace
16:38
and emotional stability.
16:40
So did you have kids at this?
16:42
Yes, I had the three kids, six, three and two.
16:45
I was going on essentially throughout the childhood.
16:48
How long were you planning to leave
16:51
and what were the steps that you had to take,
16:53
particularly financially, to be able to have the ability to walk away?
16:58
I imagine probably emotionally you'd made that decision before,
17:01
and then you had to make the practical things happen.
17:04
Sure.
17:05
It took about a year in the planning financially,
17:08
because it was such a mess,
17:10
I resigned myself to whatever money I've got,
17:13
I've just got to make it work.
17:15
And so when I decided to leave him,
17:17
and I left him, I just phoned up my bank,
17:19
because at that time, because the kids were small,
17:21
I was just working one day a week,
17:23
just kept my foot in the door.
17:25
As soon as I left him, I phoned up my bank,
17:27
had that relationship with them,
17:29
and I went back part time.
17:31
I was still working in the bank.
17:33
I was working in the bank. One day a week.
17:35
So throughout that time, you did have a little bit of a time,
17:38
but it just wasn't enough.
17:39
No, obviously.
17:40
When I entered the relationship,
17:42
I've got to get to work to get some money,
17:44
and that's when I went back part time working.
17:46
Five days a week, four hours a day.
17:48
And was that because of children?
17:50
Yes.
17:51
You couldn't do full time,
17:52
because the child care,
17:53
and then take them to school.
17:55
It was just such a challenge to get my kids ready,
18:00
drop them off, drop the car off the station,
18:02
go to work places in the West End,
18:05
and then working in the bank,
18:07
I was a cashier at the time,
18:08
and so I had to make sure my tool balanced
18:10
before you could leave.
18:12
And so that was even the actual situation,
18:14
you know?
18:15
And so, you know, once my tool balanced,
18:17
and rushed back on the train,
18:19
picked my car up, picked the kids up,
18:21
it was just...
18:22
Can I ask you?
18:23
Can I go back to some of the things
18:25
that you touched on before?
18:26
Sure.
18:27
When you said there was a huge amount of control,
18:30
and I'm imagining that there was a lot of that
18:34
that did come around money.
18:35
So that's when I'm actually anxiety leading up to the Friday.
18:38
Yeah.
18:39
Did he not want you to go back to work more
18:42
so that he had more of that control,
18:44
do you think?
18:45
Or was it because you had three kids
18:47
that made sense to only work one day a week?
18:49
I'm just wondering,
18:50
in that sort of first six years of the first child life.
18:52
Yeah.
18:53
I think because I wanted to be there for my kids
18:55
as much as possible.
18:56
And, you know, in my mind,
18:58
I was thinking, you know,
18:59
he was earning money,
19:00
so we could make that happen.
19:03
But, you know, I think
19:05
he just hated my strength.
19:07
And even though, you know, even if he gave me the money
19:10
or didn't give me the money,
19:12
I would still make it work somehow.
19:14
And so because he was seeing that,
19:16
he was getting more and more angry with me.
19:18
So he wanted to see you, right?
19:19
Yes.
19:20
Absolutely.
19:21
So then he was, you know,
19:22
giving it when he wanted to,
19:23
giving me less.
19:24
And, you know, it was just
19:25
that's how he was trying to control me.
19:27
But because it wasn't working,
19:28
he became more and more, you know,
19:30
violent and aggressive.
19:32
And if you were to think back
19:34
to the beginning of the relationship
19:35
with the father of your kids,
19:37
were there early signs of that abuse
19:42
and particularly when it came to maybe
19:44
the way he was with money or wanting control?
19:47
If you were to look back
19:49
at were there signs in the early days?
19:51
Yeah.
19:52
Or was it something that kind of grew
19:53
because I think I've experienced
19:55
a form of an abusive relationship,
19:57
nothing like you've experienced.
19:59
But I think for anyone who hasn't,
20:01
it's really hard to understand
20:02
how someone does gain so much control.
20:06
I guess if you were to look
20:08
or try and explain signs
20:10
so that there are people that are dating
20:12
and they maybe see something,
20:14
they can just be aware
20:15
of it from the early parts of a relationship.
20:17
Yeah.
20:18
So I was with him from 16.
20:21
And so we used to argue in that,
20:23
but like, you know, typical teenagers.
20:25
And so that was kind of okay.
20:27
We did have a few physical fights,
20:29
but it was nothing compared
20:31
to how it progressed into that.
20:34
And I think what happened
20:36
at the age of 21,
20:37
I bought my first property.
20:38
How did you do that?
20:40
My dad used to say,
20:41
Nama, never ever rent a property
20:43
because if you rent a property
20:45
for 25 years and you don't be
20:47
rent for one week,
20:48
they would chuck you out.
20:49
So that's so to see him on mind.
20:51
Very good advice.
20:52
Right.
20:53
Go ahead.
20:54
Exactly.
20:55
So that is not going to happen to me.
20:57
So at the age of 21,
20:59
I was by my property.
21:01
And so I said to him,
21:02
the kid's dad,
21:03
look, I'm going to buy,
21:04
I'm thinking of buying a property.
21:06
You know, let's do it together.
21:07
He went and talked to his brothers
21:09
and he came back and he said,
21:10
I'm not buying no house with no woman.
21:13
I was heartbroken.
21:14
Do you know what I mean?
21:15
I was heartbroken.
21:16
Exactly.
21:18
You know, this is what he said to me.
21:21
You know what?
21:22
That was the best sentence
21:24
I could have ever said.
21:25
Because if that,
21:26
if we bought it together,
21:27
how would I've got away?
21:28
It would have just been so.
21:29
Of course.
21:30
Because when you separated,
21:31
he was the one that had to leave the house.
21:33
Absolutely.
21:34
And to get an injunction,
21:35
it was just...
21:36
Oh my gosh.
21:37
So you actually...
21:38
That was the best thing that could have
21:39
ever happened.
21:40
Because how would you have left otherwise?
21:41
You would have known.
21:42
And then just jumping the gun a bit.
21:44
But I'm actually an ambassador
21:46
for survivors of economic abuse.
21:48
And at the moment,
21:49
because they do all this lobbying
21:51
and they're brilliant.
21:52
And they get...
21:53
They get all different laws changed.
21:54
And at the moment,
21:55
they're dealing with...
21:56
They said...
21:57
They've found out that there's hundreds
21:59
of thousands of women
22:02
survivors that have joined mortgages.
22:05
And...
22:06
Well, mortgaged domestic abuse
22:08
is such a big thing at the moment,
22:10
which is trying to get that law changed.
22:12
Because it heaps people
22:13
into either homelessness
22:15
or debt for life.
22:16
And that would have been...
22:18
How could I've left?
22:19
What does debt for life mean?
22:20
Well, you know,
22:21
you left with all these debts.
22:22
Do you know what I mean?
22:23
Because you can't pay them off
22:24
because you have to leave it.
22:25
Absolutely.
22:26
You've got a mortgage.
22:29
That is a debt.
22:30
People don't see that as a debt.
22:31
If you don't...
22:32
If you've not bought the property cash,
22:34
it's a debt that you have to pay back.
22:36
So if their name's tied to that mortgage,
22:38
they can't leave.
22:40
Do you know what I mean?
22:41
So they've got that debt.
22:42
And a lot of the times,
22:43
when you're in those kind of situations,
22:45
a lot of people,
22:46
a lot of survivors,
22:47
women get coerced into taking
22:49
that loans and debts.
22:51
It's like sign here.
22:52
Absolutely.
22:53
And we'll get a house together.
22:54
Yeah.
22:55
Or...
22:56
Or...
22:57
Or, you know,
22:58
because it's an abusive relationship,
23:00
you know, I need...
23:01
I want to get a car.
23:02
You need to sign that for me.
23:03
And, you know,
23:04
people are filming for their lives.
23:06
And so, you know,
23:07
they've got all this debt,
23:08
their credit scores, you know,
23:09
just on the floor.
23:11
And it's just an awful situation.
23:14
I think goodness you were able to get out of that.
23:16
Oh, Lord, you're good.
23:17
Lord, you're good.
23:18
Thank you.
23:19
For your father.
23:20
Yes.
23:21
And so, I think from that point
23:23
of me buying that property,
23:24
that's when things started to change.
23:26
Because down the line,
23:28
he started to say,
23:29
because I had my first child at 22.
23:31
I lost my first child.
23:32
I had preclampsia.
23:33
What is that?
23:34
That's when your blood pressure
23:35
goes through the roof.
23:36
And, yeah,
23:37
you could have a stroke,
23:39
a heart attack.
23:40
That's when you were pregnant.
23:41
This is when I was pregnant.
23:42
But that's when he started to be horrible to me.
23:43
I think the stress of it.
23:44
The stress of it.
23:46
Honestly.
23:47
And so, I lost my first child at 22.
23:49
And then I had my next child at 24.
23:52
And so, each pregnancy.
23:54
And then he started to say,
23:55
this is my house.
23:56
And I guess he realized that he made a mistake
23:59
in not putting his name in that property.
24:02
So, that's when he started to become more abusive
24:05
and aggressive.
24:06
And, God, I just think that makes sense.
24:09
Yeah, it does.
24:10
And I just think,
24:11
that's why, no doubt,
24:12
you do the work that you do.
24:13
Yes.
24:14
Because things could have been completely different
24:16
for your kids, for you.
24:18
Absolutely.
24:19
Could have been a life of being trapped.
24:20
Absolutely.
24:21
And there's something that was abusive
24:22
and so many different facets.
24:23
You have a lot like,
24:24
I'm so glad that your dad told you that.
24:27
Yes.
24:28
There should be a lot of people that don't have someone
24:30
in their life that is helping them make decisions
24:33
that prepare them for the worst.
24:34
And I think that, you know, when you're in love
24:36
and when you're studying a family,
24:37
you're never expecting for things to go wrong.
24:39
And it's quite unquite unromantic.
24:41
Absolutely.
24:42
To plan for when things go wrong,
24:44
when you're in such a happy phase.
24:46
But it's so true.
24:47
It's just not going to happen.
24:48
And to be able to have the education
24:50
and the job to fall back on, one thing.
24:52
Yeah.
24:53
And keeping your foot in the door
24:54
by at least doing once a week, so clever.
24:57
Absolutely.
24:58
Because you're keeping your skills up,
24:59
your relationships with the bank,
25:00
you could go back and say,
25:01
I want to come back more.
25:03
Absolutely.
25:04
I mean, all those things are just so clever.
25:05
And I think that if it was spoken about more
25:08
in terms of what the worst case scenario looks like,
25:11
a lot more of us would be helping each other
25:13
and having these conversations
25:14
and talking about how we can protect ourselves financially
25:17
to get out of situations that are really unhealthy
25:22
and absolutely fine.
25:23
Absolutely.
25:24
They really are terrifying.
25:25
What was the pivotal moment that made you change your career
25:34
from finance to psychotherapy?
25:37
And then eventually,
25:39
more of a turn to get out.
25:40
Absolutely.
25:41
So I was in finance for almost 20 years.
25:45
Children are teenagers now.
25:47
And I felt like I wanted to do something more meaningful.
25:50
So I'm a Christian and at church,
25:52
we have a counselling telephone line.
25:56
And so I volunteered to do that.
25:58
And they used to say,
25:59
normally you're really good
26:00
and you're really helping these people.
26:03
And so they said,
26:04
why don't you take it up as a career?
26:06
It didn't even cross my mind.
26:08
But as a psychotherapist,
26:10
working with people is just so powerful
26:12
and so rewarding.
26:14
You know, when you see the metamorphous transformation
26:17
in people's lives.
26:19
And so I looked into it and inquired about it
26:21
and started studying whilst the children were still
26:25
we were teenagers now.
26:26
So sorry.
26:27
So you had three kids.
26:28
Yes.
26:29
You were working part-time.
26:30
And you were studying.
26:31
Yes.
26:32
You are a superwoman.
26:34
Thank you.
26:35
How are you actually doing that at night, the study?
26:37
Working part-time freed me up.
26:40
Yeah.
26:41
So that gave me some space.
26:42
So by the time I picked up the kids
26:44
and dropped them off to my mom's
26:46
and then went to college and that,
26:48
I made it work.
26:49
My mom made it work.
26:50
And make it work, I did.
26:51
It's all in your mind.
26:52
You'll have a win or lose in your mind.
26:55
Do you think that it was because you weren't privy to that
26:59
when you were younger in terms of that day-to-day week
27:02
to week financial stress?
27:03
Mm-hmm.
27:04
And that you were able to have appreciation for
27:08
and learning in a way that was positive opposed
27:11
to giving you like a fearful money mindset
27:14
because I think there's a lot of people
27:16
who have experienced frugality in some description
27:19
when they're younger.
27:20
But it doesn't necessarily have a positive impact
27:23
on the way that they then approach their finances.
27:25
Sure.
27:26
I'm just wondering if you've thought about how...
27:29
Yeah.
27:30
How did you use those as really clever learnings?
27:35
And also I guess the idea of knowing finance
27:37
and understanding probably the idea of investing
27:39
you bought a property,
27:41
was it the idea that you knew you could earn more
27:43
or that like I'm just curious
27:45
because when Vick often talks about the idea of yes,
27:49
you can save and you can be really careful with your money,
27:52
but actually increasing your earning capacity
27:55
like you did in terms of studying
27:56
so that you could then earn more.
27:58
You were kind of doing a 360 approach.
28:01
You knew the frugal side,
28:03
you were investing yourself to learn more.
28:05
Like how has your whole money story evolved over the years?
28:09
And from what you saw from your mum?
28:11
Yeah.
28:12
It was a very positive experience
28:14
hence why when it comes to finance,
28:17
regardless I've been in situations where
28:20
because I'm self-employed,
28:22
I've not had a contract for nearly a year.
28:25
I've just got a contract now, a paid contract,
28:28
a P-A-Y-E contract that's working for a company now.
28:31
I had to use my skills from back then
28:34
to sustain me for a whole year.
28:37
But it's not what you have,
28:38
it's what you do with what you have.
28:40
And not only what I learned is what I saw,
28:42
what I was exposed to,
28:44
how they conveyed what was going on in the household.
28:48
Even though it obviously wasn't positive for my mum,
28:51
it was positive for me.
28:53
But then saying that, you know, you can even have,
28:56
I don't know if you've all got siblings.
28:58
And I'm sure each and every one of you
29:00
probably have a different take on money
29:02
because regardless of what you've been exposed to,
29:05
it's how you've processed that exposure
29:08
and how you've internalised it
29:10
and what that means to you.
29:12
So as I said, I'm the youngest of five girls.
29:14
I've got the most properties.
29:16
I don't listen to that.
29:17
I don't think I've been listening to it.
29:19
But do you know what I mean?
29:20
When it comes to money, maximising my money,
29:23
helping people around me, maximising their money,
29:26
live their best life, I've got that.
29:28
And that's what I share with as many people
29:30
as possible, single mother, married mother, whatever.
29:33
For me, it's about how can I empower you?
29:36
And how do you integrate that into your psychotherapy sessions?
29:39
And I guess what are some of the biggest insights
29:43
that you've found from your clients?
29:46
So I have a private practice in Highly Street.
29:48
I don't know if you've heard of Highly Street.
29:49
I love Highly Street.
29:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:51
So that's from my private practices.
29:52
I go there for a few treatments.
29:53
All right.
29:54
Yeah.
29:55
For sure, you can get anything from plastic surgery
29:57
to psychotherapy, right?
29:58
Yeah.
29:59
In Highly Street.
30:00
And so I work with experts in their field,
30:02
barista, and it is all different people.
30:04
And it's just so amazing that these experts,
30:07
when it comes to money, they almost regress
30:10
to like a child-like state
30:12
because they have no confidence around money.
30:15
They don't have any understanding,
30:17
much understanding, apart from what they've been exposed to,
30:20
learn behaviors, whatever.
30:22
That's their experience with money.
30:24
With regards to psychotherapy,
30:26
I take them back to understand where their money management practices
30:30
that have derived from.
30:32
Is it serving you?
30:33
Because if it's not, we're going to explore that.
30:36
And we're going to have to learn some behaviors
30:39
and some new behaviors and unlearn some unsurven behaviors.
30:43
So do you look at their childhood,
30:45
their upbringing, their parents, how they deal with money,
30:48
and how that's infiltrated their life?
30:50
Absolutely.
30:51
So that's the start in place.
30:52
Because a lot of people, when I say to people,
30:54
what is your relationship with money?
30:56
They look at me like I'm green.
30:58
Is they actually do even have a relationship with money?
31:01
There wasn't even a way that they had a relationship with money.
31:04
And so helping people understand the psychology of money.
31:07
And basically what that is,
31:09
your psychology of money is your beliefs,
31:12
and your behaviors around spending, budgeting, investing.
31:18
And so exploring that, what does that mean to you?
31:21
And how does it affect you in the here and now today?
31:25
It's so important,
31:27
but yet something that is so underexplored.
31:31
It's so complex as well.
31:33
I can't believe I've only discovered it since we started doing the curve.
31:38
Like it's something that should be taught in their schools,
31:43
universities, it's crazy to think that it's so ingrained
31:48
in all aspects of our life when we're older,
31:51
that this sooner we understand,
31:52
it's like we're talking about periods.
31:55
We don't know all the other things that come with when you're menstruating.
31:58
Like you're angry, you're hormonal,
32:01
you're might be eating heaps.
32:03
We don't get taught any of that.
32:04
Absolutely.
32:05
I don't know, it's the same with money.
32:07
It's like you just kind of discover it and it's like an aha moment.
32:10
But I also feel as though there's this,
32:12
you know, the things that you don't know about yourself will understand
32:16
you actually can't change.
32:17
So you're unconsciously,
32:19
almost just completely at the mercy of whatever you have learned
32:23
without realizing it,
32:24
and you could spend an entire lifetime living out those unconscious beliefs.
32:28
Absolutely.
32:29
And a really negative and unhelpful way,
32:31
unless you spend the time to look at those things.
32:34
And do some work on yourself.
32:36
You know, I'm just intrigued by people,
32:39
because I work with couples,
32:40
couple of therapies,
32:41
especially financial therapy.
32:43
And, you know, they come together,
32:45
they don't understand their own psychology of money,
32:49
let alone able to have that conversation with their partner.
32:53
And this is such a fundamental part of your relationship, right?
32:58
Because money and the concept of money,
33:01
and what that means, it, you know,
33:03
flows over into so many areas of, you know, your life.
33:07
And people are so quick to sign up for a mortgage
33:09
when they're in a relationship, you know,
33:11
not discussed money,
33:13
only to realize down the line that this person's frivolous with their money
33:16
or this person's frugal with their money.
33:18
And I'm not, you know, that doesn't work for me.
33:20
All these things should be discussed
33:22
from a very, very early stage of your relationship.
33:27
Everything else is discussed.
33:29
But, you know, and money is one of the number one things
33:32
that, you know, break down a relationship.
33:34
And so I help them individually understand
33:37
their relationship with money.
33:38
And I help them to start a journey of having like a,
33:42
a checking on a weekly or monthly basis
33:45
or whatever works with you,
33:46
with regards to your money
33:48
and, you know, how that's impacting the relationship in your life.
33:52
Well, your partner can be your choice and partner
33:54
can have one of the biggest impacts on your financial trajectory.
33:58
Absolutely.
33:59
Absolutely.
34:00
I'm like, it's hard enough finding a partner.
34:02
Let's put it down.
34:03
Yeah, let's put it down.
34:04
It's better right on it.
34:05
What, when you were working as a psychotherapist,
34:10
you already had a pretty long history
34:13
of working with money through the bank
34:15
and what you'd experienced in your earlier relationship.
34:18
Did you start that work on yourself first
34:21
and then come to the realization,
34:23
wow, actually the psychotherapy
34:25
and my money skills merged together?
34:27
Was it, was it self-work that happened
34:29
and then you thought,
34:30
this is something I can share with other people?
34:32
Sure.
34:33
Working with couples,
34:34
the money situation kept coming up,
34:37
even though they would come to therapy
34:39
with different presenting issues.
34:41
It would always...
34:42
Go back to money.
34:43
How interesting.
34:44
And I thought,
34:45
hold on a minute,
34:46
let me just look into this a bit more.
34:49
And as I began to, you know,
34:51
just look at my,
34:52
look through the files or whatever.
34:54
And then thought,
34:55
there is something here
34:56
and then just thinking about my own self.
34:59
Then I started to think about single parents, right?
35:02
If you're not able to manage your money,
35:04
the impact of that on your mental health,
35:06
it would just floor you.
35:08
If you're, for example,
35:09
I had a friend,
35:10
she became a single parent,
35:12
and her partner controlled with the money.
35:14
Well, not controlled.
35:15
He just paid all the bills and everything.
35:17
So she thought,
35:18
all that was good, I've not got that stress.
35:20
She had free children,
35:21
only to find out that that was his control.
35:25
So when she, they separated,
35:28
she was flawed.
35:30
It's like she didn't know what to do,
35:31
had to pay a bill.
35:32
She did not know anything.
35:34
And so she, obviously,
35:35
really had a breakdown
35:37
because of it,
35:38
because of the stress of it.
35:39
I've got to look after these three children.
35:40
I've got this to do.
35:41
I've got that to do.
35:42
I don't know if you start my money.
35:43
And, you know,
35:44
how's it going on?
35:45
You know, there's so many things to consider.
35:47
And so I thought for people that,
35:48
you know, single parents are not earning enough money
35:50
to, you know,
35:51
on one salary,
35:52
two to one,
35:53
how do you manage that?
35:54
But how do you, like,
35:56
with that situation,
35:57
you just describe?
35:58
Like, I can see how people fall into that situation
36:01
because, like, we're all busy,
36:02
life's busy,
36:03
but like,
36:04
at what point does it become control?
36:06
Do you know what I mean?
36:07
Like, she's sitting there probably thinking,
36:09
okay, he's looking after the bills and everything,
36:11
that's great,
36:12
something I don't have to think about,
36:13
until she has to think about it,
36:14
through a divorce or a situation.
36:16
I guess what advice would you give people
36:19
in a similar situation like that,
36:21
to identify if it's control,
36:23
or if it's just a helping hand?
36:24
Well, first of all,
36:25
what I would say,
36:26
regardless of how great you might think your partner is,
36:29
they're taking control of the finances,
36:31
you still need us checking,
36:33
a weekly or a monthly check-in,
36:35
just to know where we are,
36:37
what's going on,
36:38
what are the bank accounts,
36:39
what are the bills,
36:40
have that knowledge,
36:42
as opposed to big,
36:43
so that you don't get blindsided,
36:45
because a lot of people do think,
36:46
oh, that's great,
36:47
they're taking care of it,
36:48
they're paying everything,
36:49
I don't have to pay that.
36:50
That is one, one less thing
36:52
that you have to deal with.
36:54
But then that could be a form of abuse,
36:56
because there's been situations
36:57
where a partner's like,
36:59
bought something lovely for their,
37:01
for their other half,
37:03
and then their other half has gone out
37:05
with their friends for the weekend,
37:07
or for the night,
37:08
and then the partner don't speak to them for a week.
37:11
That's another form of abuse.
37:13
Do you know what I mean?
37:14
So that's control.
37:15
Do you know what I mean?
37:16
You might think,
37:17
oh, he's lovely,
37:18
he's bought me this outfit.
37:19
He said I can go out,
37:20
but actually when they've gone out,
37:22
he don't speak to her for a week.
37:24
And so just identifying things
37:26
that make you uncomfortable.
37:28
Do you know what I mean?
37:29
So it's about being aware.
37:31
Yes, I know more partners
37:32
taking care of the finances,
37:34
but I still need to be part of that.
37:42
You've helped thousands and thousands of people
37:45
improve their financial education.
37:47
Yeah.
37:48
What do you think would be the most common misconception
37:50
that people had about money management and general?
37:53
Sure.
37:54
For me, I think people think
37:56
if I earn more, I'd be fine.
37:58
So they get a second job,
38:00
and a third job,
38:01
a little side hustle.
38:02
But it's nothing,
38:03
it's not about that at all.
38:04
Like I said,
38:05
it's not what you have.
38:06
It's what you do with what you have.
38:08
We go back to your psychology of money.
38:10
Where does that come from?
38:11
Because you can earn more.
38:12
You know, celebrities,
38:13
I've worked with Celebrity.
38:14
And every time I speak to somebody,
38:15
they said,
38:16
they always say,
38:17
I need to,
38:18
I need your help.
38:19
And you'd think there's earn enough money.
38:20
I work with people, you know, experts in their field.
38:23
So it's clear,
38:24
a lot of your winners is a prime example.
38:26
It's clearly not about the money, right?
38:28
It's about lack of financial education
38:31
and your psychology of money.
38:33
That is your foundation.
38:35
You have to get those two things right
38:37
before you earn another penny, I would say.
38:39
80% of it is about financial literacy
38:42
and the psychology of money.
38:44
20% is about the money.
38:46
A lot of what you talk about at events,
38:49
at various things with clients,
38:51
is the idea of using money as an empowering tool,
38:54
rather than something that hangs over your head as this.
38:57
Source of anxiety and stress.
39:00
How can people listening,
39:03
who are maybe starting to realise
39:05
they have some really negative financial habits,
39:09
that are potentially rooted
39:11
and past psychological issues or traumas
39:14
when it comes to money and finances?
39:16
What can they start to do to unravel that?
39:19
To be honest with you,
39:20
what they really do need is therapeutic intervention.
39:23
I mean, I'll give you an example.
39:25
One of my clients,
39:27
it was at my boot camp,
39:29
because I ran a financial boot camp.
39:31
And we was going for his finances
39:33
and he became really angry at one point.
39:36
And I asked him what was going on
39:38
and he said, you know what?
39:40
At one point in my life,
39:42
my mum, she used to give us an evening meal
39:45
and then lock the kitchen door.
39:48
And then she said,
39:49
when I went to school the next day,
39:50
I was hungry,
39:51
so I don't know what happened in the morning.
39:52
I don't know if he didn't get any breakfast.
39:54
And he said, you know,
39:55
I'm so angry with my mum for that.
39:57
I really do.
39:58
I don't have a relationship with her because of that.
40:01
And as a result of that,
40:03
he's frivolous with his money
40:05
and he's in a relationship.
40:06
So he's taken all of that
40:08
into his relationship.
40:09
He just spends,
40:10
because whatever gets he spends,
40:11
because there was a time when he didn't
40:13
he had lack and scarcity.
40:14
And that anger,
40:15
as far as he's concerned,
40:16
that's not going to happen to him again,
40:18
but because he's spending them frivolously,
40:20
he hasn't got any money.
40:21
So it's a vicious cycle.
40:22
And so I said to him,
40:23
have you spoken to your mum
40:25
about what she did?
40:26
Now, I'm not saying what she did was right.
40:29
I'm just saying that may be learnt behaviour.
40:32
That may be what may have happened to her
40:35
as a result of trying to preserve food
40:37
or making sure, you know,
40:38
the family got one wholesome meal.
40:40
So you need to understand
40:42
where this is coming from.
40:44
And he was able at some point to go
40:46
after the therapeutic work that we did
40:48
to speak to his mum.
40:49
And it was that,
40:51
that's her mother did that to her.
40:53
So that's what she thought was the right thing to do
40:55
for her own children.
40:56
Not knowing the psychological impact
40:59
it had on him,
41:01
it was huge.
41:02
And then people are going into relationships
41:04
with people that have different traumas.
41:06
Don't know what's going on.
41:07
Not having these conversations.
41:09
They're living a life of hell.
41:11
So do you think for him,
41:12
confronting his mum,
41:13
it was a way for him to release that anger?
41:15
And therefore not spend in the same way?
41:17
Because it was kind of like he was trying to compensate her.
41:19
Absolutely.
41:20
Yeah.
41:21
So it was a two-fold tip.
41:22
So for him to have that conversation with his mum.
41:24
And then, you know,
41:25
release some of that anger and that poison
41:28
that was, you know,
41:30
he was engulfed in.
41:32
And then make more sense of his finest.
41:35
He was more in a,
41:36
he was then in a position to want to work on his finances properly.
41:40
Do you know what I mean?
41:41
Without having all of that at the back of his mind.
41:45
Can we just touch on with the mental health?
41:47
Just how much money plays into mental health?
41:52
Sure.
41:53
And how it's always overlooked,
41:55
or often overlooked,
41:57
like the connection between the two.
41:59
Can you just give us like some insights into
42:02
how financial stress plays into,
42:04
into albuming,
42:05
and vice versa,
42:06
albuming plays into albuming.
42:07
Sure.
42:08
So the mental health foundation said
42:10
that 94% of the people in the UK worry about their money.
42:13
Champion health said that
42:16
people with financial pressures
42:19
are twice as likely to have suicidal faults.
42:23
So when it comes to finances,
42:25
you know if you're getting unexpected bill.
42:27
How does that affect you?
42:28
And especially if you haven't got the money to pay for it.
42:30
You automatically feel stressed.
42:32
You automatically feel anxious,
42:34
overwhelmed.
42:35
Especially if it's bill after bill.
42:37
So of course that's going to affect your mental wellbeing.
42:40
Especially if you don't have the means to pay it.
42:42
Do you know what I mean?
42:43
And there are so many free resources out there
42:45
and that's what I help people with as well.
42:47
Unknown.
42:48
Because nobody's speaking about anything.
42:50
So they're going around with,
42:52
you know, feeling mentally unstable
42:55
because of all what's happening.
42:57
They're depressed.
42:59
You know, they're, you know, people are going around with like,
43:02
they have low moods.
43:04
It affects your sleep pattern.
43:06
It affects your eating patterns.
43:08
Do you know what I mean?
43:09
All of these different things.
43:10
And then a lot of people don't even associate it with their money.
43:12
They might think they think they're feeling stressed
43:14
or depressed for other reasons.
43:16
But just having that conversation.
43:18
It's like, oh my gosh.
43:20
I didn't realise my money was making me feel ex-white.
43:24
When things are happening psychologically,
43:26
it has to come out one way or another.
43:28
It either comes out mentally or physically or both.
43:32
So I don't know if you've heard of psychosomatic symptoms.
43:34
I have, yeah.
43:35
Yeah.
43:36
So thinking about mentally.
43:38
And, you know, then you start having all these different ailments.
43:41
Go to the doctors.
43:42
You can't find anything.
43:43
You know what I mean?
43:44
It's like, what is wrong?
43:45
And you know, what is wrong with me?
43:47
And it's too obviously, you know,
43:49
if the doctor does have time to talk to you
43:51
and he asks, is he like, sort of like, what's going on in life?
43:54
He can help make that connection.
43:56
I've worked with somebody.
43:57
Not I've worked with somebody.
43:58
I've read about somebody that was woke up on morning
44:01
and couldn't walk from the wastefuls paralysed
44:03
from the waste down because of psychosomatic symptoms.
44:07
The mental health pressure with that intense.
44:11
And people are living in relationships
44:13
because of finances that are having all these backaches, headaches,
44:17
you know, palpitations.
44:19
And do you know what I mean?
44:21
Not knowing.
44:22
Well, they understand that we've got financial issues
44:24
but not knowing the depth of how it's impacting them physically, emotionally, psychologically.
44:31
It's just making me realize how much my underlying financial stress
44:35
is probably having a mess at impact in other parts of my life without me realizing it.
44:39
Absolutely.
44:40
You've obviously seen all of those symptoms in your clients.
44:43
I'm assuming whether it be like quite serious physical symptoms
44:47
or emotional distress.
44:49
What are some ways that you help them address that?
44:51
First of all, I think you need to know for yourself.
44:55
What is the root of these issues in terms of your finances?
44:59
Understand where your financial practices have derived from
45:04
and the impact it's had on you.
45:06
Because these are all light bulb moments.
45:08
Because you're just living your life right, spending your money
45:11
or doing whatever you are with your money.
45:13
You don't have that awareness of the impact it's having on you.
45:16
So let's go back and let's explain it.
45:18
It's, oh my god.
45:19
And they remember these things that have happened in their early childhood
45:24
and didn't realize it was trauma.
45:26
It's in their unconscious.
45:27
And I help make the unconscious.
45:29
That's a part of a psychodynamic process is making the unconscious conscious,
45:34
bringing it into the conscious, exploring it.
45:38
And then addressing it and then you can let go of it.
45:43
Because so is that how you, it's all well and good identifying?
45:47
Okay, this is how my child and his affected.
45:50
But then how do you change that?
45:52
How do you make that go from a negative to a positive?
45:54
Absolutely.
45:55
So for example, that person that I used as a,
45:58
so that was his childhood experience, his childhood trauma.
46:01
So, okay, this is what you experienced then.
46:05
But you're not experiencing it now, are you?
46:09
No, you're not.
46:10
So he said, no, I'm not experiencing it now.
46:12
The impact it had on you then.
46:14
Obviously you felt helpless.
46:16
You wasn't in a position to do anything about that then.
46:20
But now you're earning your own money.
46:22
You can spend it how you want and do whatever you want with it.
46:25
And so now you have your own money
46:28
and you have autonomy to make your own decisions.
46:32
That can't happen to you again.
46:34
That really can't, just having that belief.
46:37
That's empowerment.
46:38
Because it was powerless then.
46:40
So it's understanding that happened then.
46:42
It's not happening now.
46:44
That must take time to unpack though and change.
46:47
It does.
46:48
But you know, they want that change.
46:50
You want that change.
46:51
You don't want to be living like that.
46:52
You don't want to be living with that health thinking,
46:54
my mother, my mother, my mother every time you get money.
46:56
You know, I'm going to spend it as a,
46:57
you don't want to live like that.
46:58
It's making you unhappy.
47:00
It's affecting your relationship.
47:02
So you've come because you want change.
47:05
You know, you go to the gym.
47:06
You can look at the apparatus for as long as you want.
47:08
You want that change.
47:09
You've got to do the work to make that change happen.
47:12
So would you say then it's a process of working through things
47:16
from a mental standpoint first,
47:19
getting someone to a place where they've reframed their relationship
47:22
with money and they feel empowered.
47:24
Yes.
47:25
And then you draw on your financial background
47:27
to help them actually implement those changes.
47:29
Absolutely.
47:30
Because I've worked with like lots of financial advisors and that.
47:32
And they've worked with people,
47:34
financially set out all these financial plans and goals.
47:37
And perfect.
47:39
And then they've revisit them a month or two later.
47:42
And they've not done any action.
47:44
Well, it's like trying to eat healthily without understanding
47:47
what you think is good for you.
47:48
Absolutely.
47:49
Because it's like you know the outcome.
47:51
But if you don't have a deeper connection to the reason
47:53
why you're doing something.
47:54
Absolutely.
47:55
It's so much easier to fall off a bandwagon.
47:57
And I've done a podcast with some financial advisors
47:59
a couple of weeks ago.
48:01
And he was saying, Norma, you know, this is just making so much sense.
48:04
Understanding now why these people are not taking action
48:07
because it's more than that.
48:09
You're trying to, like a lot of people, young people say to me,
48:11
I want to invest.
48:12
I want to invest.
48:13
And I asked him, what is your financial situation?
48:15
I said, wanting to invest before understanding your money,
48:19
management practices is like trying to take your A levels
48:22
without studying your GCSEs.
48:24
This is exactly what happened to me.
48:26
Because we started learning about investing
48:28
because that's VIX background.
48:29
But I didn't have, and still I'm really learning those fundamentals
48:32
when it comes to money management.
48:34
So I got to a point where I'd invested far too much.
48:36
And then didn't have my basics.
48:38
Or it's almost like learning to run or find your marathon
48:41
before you can.
48:42
Absolutely.
48:43
And that's the same thing.
48:44
So, you know, as a financial advisor, obviously you go
48:47
to see a financial advisor.
48:49
They're there to sort out your finances,
48:51
which is what they're supposed to do.
48:54
They don't ask you about how your money's affected,
48:58
affecting your mental wellbeing.
49:00
That connection is not being made.
49:02
So you can give the person the best financial plans in the world.
49:06
But if they don't have the understanding
49:09
of their psychology of money,
49:11
and because to make the best financial informed decisions,
49:14
you have to be in the right mindset, right?
49:18
You have to be in the right frame of mind.
49:20
So, you know, these are just why millionaires
49:22
will just make these frivolous,
49:23
but it's like you fall back into old habits.
49:25
Absolutely.
49:26
You don't do the same one before.
49:28
You don't build that foundation before.
49:30
You will definitely fall back into it.
49:32
And be accountable to somebody as well,
49:35
along that journey, that transition journey.
49:38
Do you have any advice for people
49:40
who are listening to this who are thinking,
49:42
shit, yeah, I need to go and work on this?
49:45
Oh my goodness, I've got a bit of work to do.
49:48
What kinds of things do you have resources
49:50
that they can find?
49:51
Do you have journaling prompts people can do
49:54
in their own time?
49:55
Are there restrictions or things
49:57
that could help people who maybe right now
50:00
aren't in a position to commit to full therapy
50:02
to go through this?
50:03
Sure.
50:04
There are lots of free, I mean,
50:06
I'll give you those links to places where
50:10
or just online resources that they may help.
50:13
Yeah, start that journey.
50:16
It's about taking that step.
50:17
A lot of people say, I want to change,
50:18
I want to change, but actually taking that step,
50:20
it is a big thing.
50:22
I can't discount it.
50:23
Do you not mean?
50:24
And so helping them, people that are in positions
50:27
that can't afford my services,
50:30
I'm there to help people just to start the journey.
50:33
Because it's kind of, I guess, like saying,
50:35
you know, I've got a lot of things I need to do with the therapy.
50:37
You know, you've got a therapist,
50:38
but could you just give me a couple of blogs to read?
50:40
It's like, yeah, you need to go and do the work.
50:42
You need to go and do the work.
50:43
It's a different level of work that needs to do that.
50:46
I've found with, when it comes to money,
50:48
people no matter how intelligent or brilliant they are,
50:51
it's almost like you have to take them by the hand,
50:54
step by step, through the processes.
50:57
As basic as the processes may be, you know,
51:00
budgeting is not just budgeting your income and expenditure.
51:04
It's actually a skill and a technique,
51:06
and there's layers to it.
51:08
And that's what I teach people through my boot camp.
51:10
And so if it was just documenting your income and expenditure,
51:14
everybody would be doing it, and nobody would be in debt, right?
51:16
If it was that simple, it's much more than that.
51:19
And so it is, you know, really taking people through those steps.
51:23
When I say, you know, just if I say to people,
51:25
just go off and do that.
51:26
They get lost.
51:27
They don't feel confident enough to take those steps.
51:29
That I know from my own professional experience,
51:32
you literally do really need that support.
51:35
What about people that, like, in terms of money management,
51:38
might think, I don't have enough.
51:40
I'm starting from zero.
51:41
Like, we get this all the time with everything.
51:43
It's like, well, I don't have enough to invest.
51:44
And it's like, how do you change that narrative around?
51:47
Like, well, I don't have enough money to manage.
51:50
Or I'm in too far into debt.
51:53
Well, I don't know.
51:54
Like, how do you change that mindset and get someone on board
51:59
to start building that solid financial foundation?
52:02
So a lot of people that I work with,
52:04
they're with, I don't have enough.
52:06
I say to them, okay, then you need to come to my boot camp.
52:09
And I say to them, the money...
52:10
Can I play setups that boot camp?
52:12
It sounds like I'm...
52:13
I'm almost going to be yelling at you.
52:15
Yeah.
52:16
Find the tree.
52:17
Get jump with it.
52:18
And I say to people, the money that you pay for that boot camp,
52:22
I'll find that in your money.
52:24
Because I find every pound, every penny,
52:26
I'll find your financial leakages.
52:28
You know, you swipe your money everywhere, you know.
52:30
And you think you're going to...
52:31
I have a lot of leakages.
52:32
I have a lot of leakages.
52:33
And I plug those leakages and it's so liberating to be...
52:37
Oh my gosh.
52:38
People think they need second jobs.
52:40
Or, you know, I just can't make ends meet.
52:42
It's not that it's just that you're not managing your money right.
52:44
And within the boot camp, you know, the budget in,
52:47
I help people to set micro budgets.
52:49
What do I mean by that?
52:50
So if you've got...
52:51
You know, if people go shopping,
52:52
how much you spend on food shopping a week or whatever,
52:55
people just, you know,
52:56
randomly pluck any figure out their ear,
52:58
but you need to have set figures for everything.
53:00
You want...
53:01
And psychologically, once you have those figures,
53:03
you miraculously work within those figures.
53:06
Even if it's half of what you thought you needed,
53:08
I mean, today with my boot camp,
53:10
the person that spent the most amount of money in a month,
53:13
eating out was 800 pounds.
53:16
She was nearly in tears, exactly.
53:18
She didn't have a clue.
53:19
She thought it was about 200 pounds.
53:21
Wow.
53:22
And so this is financial leakages.
53:24
Did you know that it's swiping the card?
53:26
And you've got the credit there.
53:27
It's so easily done.
53:29
It's a lot of sushi.
53:30
Or a lot of...
53:31
No, you're having caviar.
53:33
You're gone.
53:34
You know what I mean?
53:37
So it's so easily done.
53:40
And if you're not keeping a track of it,
53:42
you don't want to look at your bank statements or your credit card statements.
53:45
It's so easily done.
53:46
People see budget in as something restricting.
53:49
Budget is empowering.
53:51
Because once you know what you've got to spend,
53:53
you're in control.
53:55
And that's...
53:56
Empowerment is about being in control.
53:58
But you know, people say to me,
53:59
oh, I don't have budget.
54:00
Because I'll be restricted.
54:01
And I think, oh my gosh, you don't understand budget in.
54:04
I'll just quickly give you an example.
54:06
So I like nice things.
54:07
I like high-end things.
54:09
I've worked many years.
54:11
I've grown up now.
54:12
I've got my money to spend on whatever.
54:14
So every so often, I'll buy myself a high-end bag or whatever.
54:17
I was going to Bali one year.
54:19
And Harley Street is near Selfages.
54:20
I popped in Selfages.
54:21
And I saw a lovely bag.
54:23
And I was in a battle saying,
54:25
should I get the bag?
54:26
Should I not get the bag?
54:27
And then I thought, hold on a minute.
54:28
Let me...
54:29
I'm going to Bali.
54:30
Let me check with the airport.
54:32
If I can get it, do it.
54:33
If you're free.
54:34
Phone up the airport.
54:36
They head my bag.
54:37
Five hundred pound cheaper.
54:40
That must be such a good feeling.
54:43
Let me tell you how expensive was the bag.
54:46
Love it, that's where your head goes.
54:49
It was five hundred pounds cheaper.
54:52
But what did I do with that five hundred pound?
54:54
I say that's me maximising my money.
54:56
I use two hundred pound to make overpayments on one of my mortgages.
55:00
I use another two hundred pound to pay for a nolidig.
55:03
Because I shop around for my holidays.
55:05
And then I use the remainder hundred pound
55:08
to go towards my spendy money on that quality to Bali.
55:11
Because it's all about saving a spendy and saving a spendy.
55:13
Do you know what I mean?
55:14
It's almost like this might be a weird analogy
55:16
and tell me if this is totally off.
55:18
But I've been reading a lot about when you cut back on something
55:21
no matter what it is,
55:22
rather than just taking something away you need to almost like fill the void
55:25
with something, whether it be an activity or a thing.
55:27
So it's like you reward yourself for finding a bargain or being clever with your money.
55:32
So it encourages you the next time to do that.
55:35
Because it's not just, it's not a feeling of lack.
55:38
It's how can I do this better and fill those gaps if that makes sense.
55:42
100%.
55:43
Like I could also be a substance misuse therapist.
55:47
And people with addiction, you can't just say you need to stop.
55:50
There's a process.
55:51
But even though there's a process,
55:53
you need to replace the negative with something positive to fill that void, as you said.
55:59
So when it comes to money, it's a game for me.
56:02
It's not about how much I have.
56:04
Some people think normal, you must be a millionaire.
56:06
Because last year I'd like five holidays.
56:08
It's all looking for these deals, making my money work for me,
56:11
and enjoying my life.
56:13
You are actually incredible.
56:16
I have loved this conversation so much.
56:19
Honestly, I struggle sometimes with attention.
56:23
I haven't thought once about anything that was happening outside of this room.
56:28
And I haven't got a clue how long I've been talking for,
56:30
but I have just loved every second of talking to you.
56:33
Thank you so much for coming in and being on my cards.
56:36
I'm so charismatic and so engaging as well.
56:38
It's just inspiring.
56:39
Thank you.
56:40
It's also just such a cool story to see how you've taken so many experiences
56:46
and turn them into empowering, positive changes,
56:50
but then also now doing the same for thousands of other people and sharing that.
56:55
For anyone that would love to find out more about what you do
56:58
and work with you or anything,
57:00
can we just give a solid plug to anyone that they can find more out about you?
57:05
Sure.
57:06
So my website is mynamenormacassius.com.
57:10
My Instagram is think like a bank,
57:12
because I've written a book called Think Like a Bank.
57:15
So my Instagram is think.light.a.bank.
57:19
Book me up.
57:20
I'm here to make you live the best life.
57:23
I'm living my best life and I'm a living testimony.
57:26
And I'll make that happen for you.
57:27
Oh, I can't wait.
57:28
I'm going to be born.
57:29
Great.
57:30
I think I really definitely wouldn't need this.
57:33
I actually just think there's like,
57:35
I think one day, if I get good enough at something,
57:38
I would love to be.
57:39
I mean, right now in an our podcast, I'm like,
57:42
Vick is very much the teacher.
57:43
I'm just sitting here absorbing everything.
57:45
But I'd love to get so like,
57:46
Oh, we're good at a skill or something.
57:48
Yeah, and I can do the same.
57:49
You know what that will be?
57:50
It's definitely not going to be singing or painting or anything.
57:52
I think you're something, you know,
57:54
that you're naturally passionate about.
57:56
And people will say, oh, you're so good at this.
57:58
You don't realize you're doing it.
57:59
It's within us.
58:00
Everything we need is within us.
58:02
And it's just spending time with yourself
58:04
and just thinking, oh, yeah.
58:06
You know, it probably doesn't even come to mind
58:08
because you do it so naturally, you know.
58:10
Thank you so much.
58:12
Yeah.
58:13
Thank you.
58:14
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
58:16
These conversations are designed to teach you
58:18
everything you need to know to be better with your money,
58:20
saving, to investing, to talking with your friends
58:22
about your salaries or that stuff.
58:24
And if you like what you've heard,
58:25
we would love if you could please hit subscribe
58:27
wherever you're listening and leave a comment.
58:29
Let us know what you thought about the episode.
58:31
And it only takes one second,
58:33
and it would really make our week a month, though, yeah.
58:35
Yeah, yeah.
58:36
So please do it.
58:37
Okay, love you.
58:38
Bye.