Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller x Docu: Caleb Flynn Guilty in Two Hours!

Transcript

Killer Thriller x Docu: Caleb Flynn Guilty in Two Hours! · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everyone.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here from Killer Thriller with Jen Fessler from
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Killer Thriller Docu.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Hi, Jen.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: Hi, guys. Hi.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: And we just.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Got the verdict in the Caleb Flynn case. The former
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: American Idol contestant has been found guilty of murdering his wife, Ashley,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: after a trial involving more than 100,000 text messages with
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: his mistress, texts about wanting Ashley dead, a missing gun,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: and an alleged staged home invasion. So Caleb Flynn was
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: found guilty on nine counts, one count aggravated murder, three
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: counts murder, two counts felonious assault, and three counts tampering
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: with evidence.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Guilty across the board. What were you surprised that it
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: was so decisive?
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: No. And it's, it's funny. Cause I was thinking, you know,
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: we didn't know that the verdict was going to come
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: in before we recorded. And I was thinking about how
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: I'm going to have to remember to say, alleged in
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: front of everything and thinking, which is so stupid because
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: clearly like there's, I mean, he did it. It was
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: so preposterous, right? It was like, yeah, someone snuck in
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: while you were on the couch, only put two bullets
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: in her head, ran out, nothing else. You told the
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: mistress you were going to do it tomorrow. It's all like,
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: of course, like, of course he was getting found guilty.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: And he also in the 911 call, he says, my wife,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: has two gunshots in her head. So a man who
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: is shocked by this does a count of what's going on.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: He also didn't check on his children until they told
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: him to.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: I wanted to also, do you know, did they talk
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: about how did the kids not wake up? Did he
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: have a silencer?
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I was wondering that too.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: There must've been a silencer is my guess because how,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: because also the thing about the dogs that the dogs
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: woke him and that's why he went There were so
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: many things to his story and there was zero evidence
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: that he was not guilty.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: From the beginning. Listen, justice prevails. I mean, that's the
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: only thing, thank God, that this family has justice. And
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: I don't think that there was the same kind of
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: discord there was over the Lindsay Clancy case with everybody
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: being so divided. I think probably everybody watching and listening
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: felt like we felt, which is that He did it.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: He killed his wife. This piece of shit killed his wife.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: And the mistress is a rotten witch. And I know
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: people will say she's a child.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: So I do feel, here's what, let me, I don't
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: disagree with you.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: She is, she certainly did not murder this woman, but
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: she has done and said some unforgivable things. But what,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: here's what I'm really over. And I'm going to give
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: you my quick list. I am really over older men
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: grooming younger women and then ruining their lives. I am
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: really sick of men killing their wives instead of just
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: getting divorced. And I am sick of people hiding behind
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: religion as some kind of excuse. I mean, do they
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: really think that God would prefer that they murder someone
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: that just get divorced?
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Or that like, I am so infuriated by by all
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: of this.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: And the defense didn't call one witness for this man,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: not one.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: I feel like, did he even try to use religion
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: as an excuse? I don't even think he could have.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they kept, he said, I'm going to starve.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: I'm going to, I'm going to fast so that God
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: will get me through this and like, get me to
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: be able to be with you.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Like what on earth?
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: No, but I mean, after he, I mean, after he
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: killed her, there's no like, I mean, he did it. He's,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: you killed your wife. There's no, You know, this is
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: on Jesus. I don't know, whatever he was saying beforehand.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: And the part about men, older men grooming younger women.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: I think that that happens. I understand where you're coming from.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: He was her pastor again.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I know. I know. And she was young. She was
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: like 22, I think, when they met. I don't know
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: how old she is now. 24. 24. So she's young.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: I have a 24-year-old daughter.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: And he's 40.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: I know. I was 24. The shit that was coming
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: out of her mouth, the kind of vile venom that
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: she was spewing and manipulating, and I don't have right
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: now sympathy in my heart for her. I don't either.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Even if she was groomed. No, I don't either. I
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: am so disgusted by this, yes, young woman, but the
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: way that she... disparaged, attacked, manipulated, tried to manipulate him,
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: didn't care about the kids, said it's full custody of
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: them or it's me. Like the kind of shit that
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: is so egregious. And I get it. She was young.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: She is young.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: But honestly, to your point, I completely agree with you.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Being young doesn't excuse you of having no moral compass
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: whatsoever and no understanding, especially as a quote unquote godly person.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: It is despicable to me.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: Well, she was also, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: And also I can also say she clearly is mentally ill.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, a hundred thousand million messages over the course,
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: it was to be that in and of itself. Obsession.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Obsession.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Right. Like, like, okay, there's clearly something wrong here.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: She's not right in the head. Neither obviously is he,
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: and he's a murderer and a monster. So all of it.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: And how, and doing this with your children, in the house.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: What this man, you know, it's rare that there's kind
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: of like the only, the real victims in this whole
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: thing are these children. Obviously his wife, who he, aside
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: from his wife, I mean, it's really awful.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: And those sweet parents, you know, I, yes, yes. When,
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: when it was just the reading of the text messages,
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: when it was her reading them, he, he, I felt
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: like he was a man who was a piece of
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: shit husband who was, and we found out later that
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: he was not like, he was loving to his wife.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: He was, you know, they weren't, he wasn't doing what
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: he was claiming he was doing in terms of like
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: shutting her down and not going anywhere where she was.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Right, he was leading a double life.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: Exactly. But, you know, reading, when she read the text,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: it to me sounded like he had gotten involved with
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: a younger woman who was, it didn't work out the
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: way he thought it did when he was ready to
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: say goodbye. She was not having it. Now his reputation
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: was on the line, his marriage, his kids, his life
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: was on the line because clearly she wasn't giving in.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: And then he got involved in, okay, I love you,
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: I love you. And then I think he also had
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: his own sick jealousy, but it never, from those texts,
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: I never would have got To murder.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: When he said, I'd kill her if I could, if
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: God would forgive me?
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent. But I still would not have thought
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: that this man, this American Idol contestant, with these two
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: beautiful daughters and the dogs and the whole, are you serious? Like,
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: doesn't there's such, there was never, did he have any
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: history of any time ever doing anything violent?
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: I don't think so.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: But I do think to your point that it really,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: the text messages really do reveal the immaturity of this woman.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: And again, this is not, I am not excusing her,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: but they sound like a lovesick kid who doesn't, she
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: almost sounds younger than her age.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: 100%, way younger.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Like a teenager.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Very, very immature.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Waking up in the morning, checking the phone. oh my God,
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: how could you have said that to me? You don't
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: mean it. You don't love me. I don't know what to,
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: I'm going to break up with you. Now we're back.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: I love you. She sounded like an obsessed teenager. It's
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: very true. I actually like, I guess if I think
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: of it that way, I would have maybe more sympathy
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: for her. But now we have a dead woman, a
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: dead wife and mother.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: And no, they never found a murder weapon, no gunshot
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: residue test, which in and of itself I don't understand that.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: The authorities said that, well, he said he responded within
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: four to six seconds in calling the authorities so that
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: he already would have residue on him. He would not
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: have it on his hands. I didn't understand their logic
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: behind not giving him that test in the first place,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: but It left them with no evidence there either, no
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: blood on Caleb, and the jury still convicted him that quickly.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: So were the texts, essentially, they were the murder weapon
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: in this case?
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: I think it was the text. I think it was
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: also his alibi. What are you talking about? So for
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: the first time, he had a coffee, slept on the couch.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: It was two hours. One of his handheld devices was
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: tracking his steps and his heart rate. He got up.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: They said he took, I don't remember the number, 30 steps,
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: then a hundred steps.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Like the whole time he said he was sleeping.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: Exactly. So they had that. They said they can't, they
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: can't link that absolutely to the fact that he was,
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: you know, up walking, shooting, although the steps I guess
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: they could, but it was this two hour period of time.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: It was the Apple watch, but it shows that he
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: was already lying. There was some, okay. He gets up
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: within the two hours. The claim is that, and he
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: had guns. The claim is that someone comes into the house,
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: shoots a woman, twice in the head and leaves and leaves.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: And that's it. And the kids, so he doesn't wake
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: up and the dogs don't bark.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: And also the, the door, the break where he claimed
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: that they broke in through the garage door. It's something
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: that it was only visible when it was open. It's like,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: did he just go open the door and kick it
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: or something? Like, this is not a smart man.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: No, but I, I wonder then, but okay. Is it
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: that he wasn't smart or that he just couldn't say,
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: I want a divorce. Is it that he had been
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: playing these women for so long, knowing that his wife
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: would have.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: He's spineless, certainly.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: Right, right. Or was it both, right? It's like he couldn't,
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: it was almost, it's so crazy, right? Because he felt
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: like it was, maybe he felt like it was his
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: only alternative. He couldn't bear losing his reputation, his money.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I think that's what it is.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: He couldn't bear- losing face, losing his reputation. I think
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: part of it, that celebrity that I'm gathering, he held
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: onto very tightly, the little notoriety that he had from
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: being on American Idol. And perhaps this young girl even
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: looked at that as some kind of, I'm close to
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: stardom or something. People have really unhealthy relationships to fame
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: in that regard.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: And so it's, Oh, so here it is.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, 119 to 156, several smaller bursts of steps on
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: the Apple Watch. 218 to 228, 105 steps recorded by
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: the Apple Watch. After that, then it stopped recording steps.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And 230, his iPhone began recording movement. And at 231,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: the 911 call connected. So for almost, for over an hour,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: before the 911 call, he was up and about moving.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: You heard, and you heard that 911 call, right?
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, I did.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was, for me, it was so obviously manufactured.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: It was, that's the thing about this case. Like I really,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: I think we go too quickly a lot of times
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: with these cases, right? And, and, really have to always
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: remember innocent until proven guilty. Guilty beyond a doubt, a
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: reasonable doubt. There is no gun, no residue, but if
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: it's me on the jury, this is easy. Two hours
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: is probably an hour and 45 minutes more than I
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: would have needed.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: It makes no sense otherwise. Why and who and what,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: like none of it makes any sense if it's not him.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: The fact that he called her. So he calls her,
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: he calls the mistress in the morning and says, I
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: chose you. Oh, excuse me. Hours before Ashley died, Caleb tells,
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: allegedly tells the mistress, Aaliyah, I choose you. I'm free. So,
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: and then he's dead. And then, then she hears that
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Ashley's dead and she calls Caleb and says, were you involved?
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: And it's like, it's all so, I don't know, obvious. Like, yes,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: this is what happened. Right.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Let's start with one of the texts. If your husband
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: says he stayed up until 4 a.m. trying to figure
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: out how to kill you, without going to jail, and
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: then you're murdered.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: As a jury member, how do you get past that?
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: All that is, listen, yes, agreed. All of that, I guess, though,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: is circumstantial evidence, right? It's like people can say things
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: and not mean them. I mean, she even said, remember
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: when she had a read that she wanted her dead,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: that Aaliyah was reading where she said to him, I
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: want her dead, Caleb. I really want her dead. And
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: she's like, Starts crying. She's like, I didn't mean it.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: I don't want to read this. I didn't mean it. Right.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Because in most cases, people don't mean it. Right. They're words.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: And so that could be viewed then as circumstantial evidence.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: He said, I wish I could kill her. All of that. Right.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: She at least showed remorse. But again, I don't know.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, is she remorseful?
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Or sad she got caught, which is how I felt
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: about every time I saw Caleb crying. I'm like, this
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: is not a man who feels bad. This is a
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: man who was embarrassed that he was caught. And now
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: he has to lose face and pay the consequences.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: That's what I saw every time.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: You know, it was so weird to me, though, because
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: when we heard about their actual marriage, as opposed to
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: what he was telling Aaliyah, right? I'm saying that right now.
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: What he was telling Aaliyah, when we found out about
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: what their actual marriage was like, that he was, in fact,
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: writing her, love you, love you too, I'm sorry, whatever,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: what did the doctor say, gave me an inhaler. Whatever
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: it was, there was nothing acrimonious. There was no, it
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: didn't sound like there was anything so unusual about their
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: back and forth. They did, in fact, go to the
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: movies together. Mm-hmm. she said, what should I, when she
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: was like, what should I wear tonight? He's like, surprise me.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: So he didn't, it's like, okay, did he, was he
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: just so.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: So then what does that?
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Then what does that say?
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Right. Does that with Aaliyah scared of, um, felt backed
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: into a corner, but I would say 99.999% of people
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: who are backed into a corner, don't then take a
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: gun and shoot their wives. So you know, it's bad,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: it's bright. You then say, okay, well, this is, I
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: have to do something else. So, but I wonder if
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: he ever showed growing up or they said, no, I've heard,
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: but like, did he ever show signs of violence and
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: sociopathic behavior?
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: Sociopathic maybe, but.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, This is the thing about the human nature
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: and sort of when you go down a path and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: then it's an extreme one and it keeps going and
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: you have someone who's sort of corroborating that path with you.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: And then do you just start to lose your mind
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: and lose all sense of a moral barometer or what?
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: And it doesn't even feel like he thought it through. Like,
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: it wasn't like he was like, okay, can't ask her
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: for a divorce. I can't do it. So I'm going
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: to have to kill her. Like, it sounds like it
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: was spontaneous. Like, you know what? I just can't do it.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: Where's my gun? Like just some manic psychotic, you know,
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: moment of, I'm not, we're not, obviously he doesn't get
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: the insanity. No, but like, I don't, it doesn't sound
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: like he.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Even really defended himself and You think that he was
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: planning on killing her?
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I think so. You mean you think that he just
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: sort of like couldn't sleep?
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: I think that he was going to say, it talked
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: about how he was going to tell the kids that
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: mommy had an affair. Right. You know, he had people
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: on his side that would corroborate it.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: How, you know, he was, they were doing all this
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: preparation in terms of, you know, what he needed to
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: do first.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But if he is the kind of person who is,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I'm calling it spineless, but someone that has no ability
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: to be accountable for themselves, he may have gotten to
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: a place of, okay, here's what I'm going to try
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: to do, and then realizing it was easier for him
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: to shoot his wife than it was to have to
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: have a conversation with his children.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: But do you think, that's what I mean, do you
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: think that he knew he was going to do it
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: All those texts back and forth the night before with her.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: And there were so many of them that were so
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: involved in the details, right? The part where he said
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: to her something about how if it all goes as planned,
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: which it will, and then she freaked out. She's like,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: what do you mean if it all goes? Are you
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: trying to back out of it?
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: But then talking about the specifics of it.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: But doesn't that sound to you like premeditated, like he's
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: planning it?
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: It does. It does. But there was so much stuff about, okay,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: this is who you're going to have to call afterwards.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: And do you know exactly what you're going to say
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: to the kids? I just wonder if, it doesn't really matter.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: He shot his wife. He's going to rot in jail.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: But like, did he decide in the moment or did
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: he always know he was going to kill her?
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, when Aaliyah hears that Ashley is dead and
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: immediately asks Caleb, were you involved? That sounds to me
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: like his mistress apparently immediately wondered.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Also, like, what kind of a question is that? That's
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the first thing you say.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: Well, think about it. So their, their plan, I don't
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: know if we know everything in terms of her story,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: but was that he was going to tell her actually
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: he wanted a divorce and that was a plan and
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: they were going to bed and in the morning, that's
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: what was going to happen. And he's like, I'll get
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: a burner phone. And from, Walmart and I'll call you
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: right after. I mean, there was like a plan in place.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: They were talking about how, what are you going to
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: say to the kids exactly? Um, and then she wakes
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: up to Ashley's dead.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: What else would be the logical thing? Oh, that God
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: came down.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: No. So I'm saying, so I know her by lightning.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: That's what she thought. That's what anybody would have thought.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: But do you think there's any chance that she did
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: have a feeling it was going to happen that she
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: did know?
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine what is going on in
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: this woman's head because she is batshit.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Nuts as far as I am concerned. And I never
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: like to.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Say things like that about women because I But I
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: am telling you, no matter at 24 years old, 22
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: years old, yes, you are sort of a child and
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: you are certainly not a grown up, but you still
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: have some understanding of right and wrong. And texting some
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: of the things that she did and saying what she said,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: there's no rationale there. It sounds like she was hoping
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: that that is what he would do.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: You think so?
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Just to get rid of her. I mean, she said.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Things like, you know, until she's gone, I'm gone. Now,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: we can assume that that means until they're divorced.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Divorced.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: But, you know, this is, again, the.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Thing where these exchanges sound so arrested to me, like
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: so juvenile. On both sides, on his also, you know,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: this like fantastical little weird thing obsessive love story.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: And even the way, even the way Malia hated Ashley.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I hate her, Caleb. I hate her. I hate her
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: so much.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Very extreme.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. What do you, I mean, I, I get it.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: She was in love with the man who was married
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: and the whole, the douche calling her names, talking about her,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: I guess her decorate, like there was so much, I
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: didn't see any guilt in those texts. There was just
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: all just, just, animosity and hatred of this woman.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah again this like very simplistic.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah she's like at one point she's like oh she
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: wins again or something's that effect because she was having
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: they were going on a trip for their 15th anniversary
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: it all i.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Mean this is a delusional person it's fair to say
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: that this young woman was delusional and i hope that
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: she is getting, I don't know that she will be
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: indicted for anything or I don't know.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I don't think so.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: What are people saying about that?
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I hope that, cause it makes me think of, I
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: just covered the, um, the girl from Plainville and you know, she,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: that girl was, um, Indicted and put in jail for
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: sending those text messages.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Now that is more extreme. She was directly telling him
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: to do it. And it was for extended period, et cetera.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: That was a sick story. But like, yeah, there was,
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: is she culpable? Just, but there was never talk, at
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: least in all the messages that we heard, there was never,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: even though I wish I could kill her. I wish,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: you know, but there was never kill her, Caleb. There
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: was never, you have to kill her, Caleb.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Right. She was never encouraging him to do it directly.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: But the prosecutors say that divorce potentially cost Caleb a
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: lot more than just his marriage. It's time with his daughters,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: his church, and his reputation, and also his job with
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Ashley's family.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: So he was the VP of their commercial flooring company.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: So essentially, this man's entire life was wrapped up with
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Ashley and her family.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: So— I know, I don't think that they even, because
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: remember when, so when it happened and Ashley's mom called
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: the dad and the dad was away with his buddies
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: on some trip, right? He drove, I don't know, 12
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: hours home and got home and said to Ashley's mother,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: this is sounding very fishy. Of course, I'm just summing
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: it up. But like, you know, do you think that
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Caleb could have been involved? And the mother's like, don't
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: you dare. Don't you even. So- And he said, I
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: never said another thing about it after that. They clearly
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: had a good relationship with their son-in-law, or at least
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: good enough that the mother would become so adamant that,
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: you know, we're not even going there.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: But when someone says, do you think he had anything
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: to do with it? You know, like I think about this, like, okay,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: God forbid something happens. should happen to me or my husband.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: And if somebody said to Charlie, if I ever passed
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: away under strange circumstances, if anybody said.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Do you think Charlie has something to.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: Do with it?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: It's like never in a million years, we do not
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: have a perfect marriage, but never in a million years
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: is anyone going to think that he would have anything
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: to do with my death.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: But that's, but that's exactly what, that's what I'm saying
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: is that that's why the mother, So Ashley's mother is like,
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: in a million years, she wouldn't have thought that Caleb
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: would have done it. Nobody knew about Aaliyah. Nobody knew
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: what he was about to do the next day that
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: he was going to, you know, according to Aaliyah, ask
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: for a divorce. I don't think any of them saw
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: it coming. And maybe that's why he thought he could
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: get away with it.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Aaliyah initially lied to the FBI about the affair and
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: weeks before the murder, her phone falls into the ocean
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: while she's kayaking and her work laptop was lost on
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: a plane.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, did that affect her credibility?
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: Does it matter?
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: To me, that sounds really questionable.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Right. So let me ask you this. I have been wondering.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: So even if you erase your messages, and they were
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: on some app I had never heard of. It wasn't WhatsApp.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: But anyway, they were on some, I guess, encrypted app.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: and they were both erasing everything. So here they all were.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Did someone not erase all the texts?
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I think you can never assume that anything is deleted
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: when we are talking about technology.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I just think that you can't.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: It's all somewhere in a cloud.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: It's all somewhere, and it is all discoverable. And I mean,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: more than 100,000 messages, that number itself... You know what?
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: It's what you said earlier is really... I feel like
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: that is something that children do. That is something that
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: teenagers do, right? That kind of obsession is not, it's
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: the kind of obsession where, I don't know, you're 14
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: and you're in love and all you do from the
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: minute your eyes open until they close.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: When your brain, we might add, is not fully formed, right?
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: As a teenager.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Right, but she's, so women's brains are, The synapses close at,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: I want to say, men, it's 26, where the lobes close.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Please forgive me, anybody who's listening who has- Women, it's
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: a little bit younger, right? It's younger, right.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: So she was there or close.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: The brain being fully developed. Yeah. I know it's younger
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: than men. I know men, it's 26. But that's what
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: she sounds like. She sounds like, in those texts, like
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: a crazed teenager. But she's not a teenager. And some
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: of the things that she said, I don't even think
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: my kids as teenagers.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: On their worst day.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: On their worst day, whatever you say, it's me or
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: your kids.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: No. Do you think that we've just, this is me again,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: getting back to the kind of general demise of our
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: entire culture. Right. Is it just that we've lost a
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: sense of anything that, of anything having real meaning and
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: kind of human nature? decency and kind of like, I'm
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: just so perplexed by this kind of the ability for
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: someone like this to at once be active in their
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: church and for all intents and purposes, very religious and
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: God fearing to be able to send these kinds of
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: text messages, also be having an affair, both sides, him
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: and her, and then be able to still like, I
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: just don't, I can't fathom it. Like, I think there's
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: a real problem.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Well, we've been doing this podcast for a minute now,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: and you and I have talked about crimes, unthinkable crimes,
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: and men and women who are, for all intents and purposes, monsters.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: And with all the podcasts that we've done now, I
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: don't have it figured out. I don't know. Is it
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: getting worse? Is it getting better? Is it I have
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: no answers for those questions. I just know it's just depressing, right?
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, we are true crime junkies, but still it's
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: sad and depressing. And this one, I just... This woman was...
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: And then he tried to... The whole thing about her
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: having an affair, what was that about?
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: About Ashley having an affair?
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Yes. Did he make that up? Was that like his
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: way of.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Of excusing his own behavior?
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. I think it was bullshit.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: I want to know, I want to know what happens
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: to Aaliyah.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: I want to, I wish I had a camera on
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: that woman's every day, every moment movement.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: I wonder if our list. Yeah, me too. I wonder
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: if our listeners though. it's funny because I think even
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: though you know what she's done is unforgivable, so do I,
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: but you give her probably more grace than I have.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Maybe that will come in time. Maybe it will occur
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: to me more and more that she was very, very
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: young and that maybe she was groomed. Right now, I
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: don't feel any of those things for her. But I
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: wonder how like I know that I've seen things online
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: about people even suspecting that she was the one that
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: did it. Right. And there certainly has not been that
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: what I've seen, there has not been a lot of
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: sympathy for her, but as a young woman, maybe I'm
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: not reading all the right stuff. You tell me, maybe
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: there is a lot of, of, of people who are sympathetic.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: I'll be curious to hear what people have to say
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: about that. I think that, you know, a lot of
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: people are very suspicious of her. And that's where I
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: always take the opposite side on that because I think
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: that women get the crappy end of things all the time.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: And so I'm always willing to give women more grace
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: on this side. But she is not without fault and
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: flaws here by any stretch of the imagination.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: And so I.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Hope that she uses this, has taken this really to
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: heart and- I don't know what she's planning to do
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: with her life.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Where are her parents in all this? Were they there?
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Great question.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: Where?
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: That's a great question. And does she have any history
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: of mental illness? Because this is some.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: We never got any of that.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Wacko.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Unlike some of the others. Yeah. Unlike some of these
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: other trials, this one went quick.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: It was so fast.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, this happened in February of 26, right?
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: So this is a very quick time. I mean, they,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: did they speed this up or what? Cause this is
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: very fast.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: For it to happen.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: It felt like it was open and shut.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: And one last thing that I have to bring up that,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: that AI love songs. I just not to make light
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: of any of this because none of it was taken lightly,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: but if ever there was an argument, against AI, it
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: is these songs.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: They are so awful.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: So I'm going to tell you something. I found it
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: like all little hairs all over my body rose. It
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: was so icky and gross. But if I'm being honest,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: I don't think the songs were that bad. It was
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: just the fact that they did that. I don't know.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: They were stupid. There are so many dumb pop.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Love songs right now.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: They're so dumb.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: And the fact that he, as a supposed singer at
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: one time, shame on you for that too.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: It was the fact that he did it.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: And that they made them listen to it in the courtroom.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: The pain on people's faces of watching that and the
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: utter sort of disbelief and confusion.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: The disgust.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: And disgust.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I personally am glad that this did not go
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: on and on and on and on because he just
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: needs to be put away. And the sentencing, I believe
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: they said it will be October 5th.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: The judge wanted this to be sped up, but to
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: give the prosecution enough time to have the impact letters
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: from the victims.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: Is it a death penalty case?
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: So the prosecutors didn't seek the death penalty, but I
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: am also reading that capital punishment, although it's legal in Ohio,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: the state has an indefinite pause on all executions. So
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: maybe that's why they didn't put it on the table.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: But he is certainly up for life imprisonment.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: If I'm a guessing girl, he's going away and he
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: ain't getting out. So poor Ashley and those poor babies.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Those, those children bless those kids and those parents.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: It's really.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: I hope that they get some closure from it.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: No, they won't closure. No, I don't think they will.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Some kind of some, I don't know, at least some
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: kind of ending to the story maybe.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: All right, well, I actually am happy that this one
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: wrapped up the way it did. It's just so awful.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so quickly like that.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I think there's certainly no, and they pulled the jury
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: after the verdict was read to make sure that everyone
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: did in fact say guilty, and that was their vote,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: and they all said yes. So very quickly, they seem
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: to have no doubt.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: That's how I would have voted. Me too. Yeah.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks for chatting, Jen. I always really enjoy these.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Conversations, hard conversations, but yeah. Thanks you guys.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: Bye. Bye.