Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Parenting Trends Throughout History: We’ve always done it wrong … and also right

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Parenting Trends Throughout History: We’ve always done it wrong … and also right · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: There are a million questions to answer before the baby
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: ever gets here.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Do you have a birthing plan? Do you know what
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: kind of a mother you want to be? Yes?
• 0:08
  Speaker 3: I plan to be.
• 0:09
  Speaker 4: A good mother, but a marsupial mom or a stroller mom?
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Will you be breastfeeding or bottle feeding? And what about babyproofing?
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Because with all the sharp edges around here, I mean,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: this place is a death trap. I'm Emily ost. This
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: is parent data and today.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Multiply this scene by thousands and you have a daily
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: picture of young mister and Missus America on their way
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: home after mother's exciting days at the hospital. The one
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: thought of this typical bear is what do we do next?
• 0:53
  Speaker 5: If I had to summarize the modern instagram and TikTok
• 0:57
  Speaker 5: inflected parenting feel, it would be with the question am
• 1:02
  Speaker 5: I doing it wrong? And then the answer yes, definitely,
• 1:05
  Speaker 5: because it's not the way that I'm doing it.
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: Get ready with me, moll I tell you how exclusively
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: pumping is not breastbeaning.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Keeno sleep training without crideout is to teach your baby
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: how to put themselves to sleep.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to show you my ten steps to cripside.
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: Comfort three reasons you continue co sleeping or but sharing.
• 1:23
  Speaker 6: I'm a speech pathologist, feeding therapist mom up too, and
• 1:26
  Speaker 6: I know how overwhelming it can be starting sons with baby,
• 1:30
  Speaker 6: especially when choosing should you do baby led weaning or purese.
• 1:35
  Speaker 5: Parenting is hard, and we all parents slightly differently, and
• 1:40
  Speaker 5: it is very easy in the current moment to get
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: absorbed in the idea that there is exactly one correct
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: way to do it.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: And if you mess up, if you get.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: The wrong toy, or you use the wrong swaddle, or
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: you sleep in the wrong way, or you give your
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: kid the wrong food, you start with pairs instead of peas,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: that somehow that that's the end, and you've messed up,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: and you might as well just go back to the
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: drawing board and try with a different baby, because you
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: completely ruined this one.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Much of your babies health depends on he's getting enough
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: of the right kind of food. That means a formula.
• 2:16
  Speaker 7: The American Academy Pediatrics recommends breastfeeding for all moms and babies.
• 2:20
  Speaker 7: Every parent should be educated to know that breastmolk is
• 2:25
  Speaker 7: so much different than formula and it's so much better.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: The formula is more than just milk.
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: We need a little bit of perspective, and that is
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: why I have Jennifer Trake here on the podcast to
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: talk about her book Act Natural, which is a history
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: of all.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Of the ways people have parented in the past.
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: What's so valuable for me about looking to the past
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: is that it helps us to take a wider lens
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: on the question of parenting trends and how they fall
• 2:54
  Speaker 5: in and out of fashion. Colostrum, which now the Internet
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: will tell you you must collect in a hakka cup
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: because otherwise, if you don't give your child every drop
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: of it, they will never ever.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Get into college.
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: People used to throw that away because it was too
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: thick for babies and should be completely discarded. Can you
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: imagine if the trend of baby salting had been around
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: in the age of Instagram. What I'm saying is that
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: you should listen to this conversation so you can understand
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: that this current moment is just one of many moments,
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: and there are many many ways to parent, and many
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: things that have happened that still resulted in people somehow
• 3:41
  Speaker 5: continuing to exist, even if they ate peas first rather
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: than pears or vice versa.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Listen.
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: The message for today is that we have been doing
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: this for a long time, and we will be okay,
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: and you will be okay, and your kids will be okay,
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: and they'll be okay when they parent their own kids too.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: You'll begin to realize how much you are going to
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: enjoy your baby. He's all yours, every inch, every ounceev.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Him after the break Jennifer Trigg.
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: Jennifer Trigg, I am absolutely delighted to get to talk
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: to you.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you for being here on parent Data.
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: Likewise, was thrilled to be here.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: So I'd love to start by having you introduce yourself.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, as you said, I'm Jennifer Trigg, I'm a writer,
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: a teacher, and editor. And turned out none of those
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: skills are particularly transferable to parenting.
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: But you do have a book about parenting, and the
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: book is called Act Natural, A Cultural History of Misadventures
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: in Parenting. And this is an incredibly entertaining book about
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: all of the insane ways we have parented over time.
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: I mean, it has many other features, but that was
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: part of how it came across to me. And the
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: reason I'm excited to talk about this is because there
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: is so much emphasis in this moment on the idea
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: of doing it right. And I spend so much of
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: my time explaining to people, hey, there are many different
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: ways that parenting happens, and it's difficult sometimes they think
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: from our narrow parenting space to have a conception of
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: even the ways people are parenting or the things that
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: they believe like three houses down or you know, two
• 5:46
  Speaker 5: towns over, and your book is about like what was
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: the parenting advice the Romans had, And what we learned
• 5:54
  Speaker 5: is it was pretty different. So that's why I would
• 5:57
  Speaker 5: like to talk.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: So I started working on this book just because as
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: the parent of small children, I really felt at sea
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: and I just I could not believe that humanity had
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: survived as a species given how hard it was. And
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: so I started looking into what did people actually do?
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: And I found out that we're making it so much
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: harder than it has to be, that it's actually really
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: hard to mess up your children, and that despite millennia
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: of really bad advice, we're still here and we're still
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: doing fine.
• 6:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it's it's there's just there's something about
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: reading some of the ways in which people are parenting
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: in these historical context and then thinking about the okay,
• 6:46
  Speaker 5: I'm going to tell you there was a fight that
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: somebody had on my Instagram feed, which you will really appreciate.
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: Like last week I posted something like totally milk toast
• 6:56
  Speaker 5: that was like you know, your own right way to
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: parent or something in that kind of uplifting space, and
• 7:03
  Speaker 5: that I asked people to share, like are there things
• 7:05
  Speaker 5: you did that you know, you think worked for you
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: that maybe didn't work for other people or something like that,
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: And somebody was like, I use pureise instead of baby
• 7:12
  Speaker 5: lead weening, so the first food she gave her kids
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: were pureis rather than giving them pieces of apple or whatever.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: And someone else.
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: Is in the comments and says something like, well, if
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: you don't use baby lead weaning, your kid's ever going
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: to learn to chew. And there's an epidemic of people
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: not learning to chew because of pureise.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: And it just felt like what, Like what do you
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: mean your kid's ever going to learn to chew? Like
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: what what is that?
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: And it was felt so bizarre, but of course this
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: person felt incredibly strongly, and then people started fighting.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: Because it's Instagram, there's a long tradition of this. I
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: think it's important to remember that the original meaning of
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: advice was judgment, and that's exactly what the early parenting
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: manuals are. They pretty much always say, well, you know,
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: here in Greece we're doing fine, but in Rome they're
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: all incredibly xenophobic and usually frame their advice by pointing
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: out what other pointing out what other cultures or other
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: people are doing wrong. We very much still do that today,
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: especially in internet comments, and I think there's a few
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: reasons why. I think one it can make us feel
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: a little better. And two, you know, the people that
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: are in the trenches are pretty exhausted, pretty miserable, have
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: invested so much time into doing these incredibly difficult things,
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: and if somebody comes along and says, actually, I did
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: it this way and it was much easier, you kind
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: of have to attack them to not feel like you've
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: wasted the last two years of your life. Yeah.
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: Another way to say it is like, if you the
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: things I do that are hard, I think they're right,
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: and I kind of want them to be so right
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: that they must be right for everybody, because otherwise.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Like, why did I, you know, why did.
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: I spend all this time giving my kid chicken legs
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: if I could have just been giving them a bowl
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: of you know, pure peaches, and it would have been fine.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: That's just like, that's hard to accept.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: It's hard to accept.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: So let's go all the way back.
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: Tell me about like the first piece of parenting advice
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: in the world.
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: The first that we kind of know of, And I
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: have to say, there's not a lot. And I wasted
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: several weeks trying to find early parenting materials only to
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: realize that the parenting is not the word at all.
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: That parenting doesn't come into usage into the nineteen seventies.
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: It's very recent, because the idea before then really was
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: not that parents did much or any of it. A
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: lot of it was outsourced. Child rearing tended to be
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: the term. And the very earliest piece of it that
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: I know of is actually an ancient Greek medical book
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: by Saranus. It's not terrible, I have to say it.
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: A lot of it holds up, perhaps because he got
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: a lot of his information from practicing midwives. Some of
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: it's a little weird. He really warns mothers away from
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: the colostrum, is very insistent that you hand the baby
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: off to someone else right after the baby is born,
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: because the closstroom is much too rich and cheesy for newborns,
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: and was also very insistent, as most were in the
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: ancient world, about salting your baby, which was a widespread
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: practice that we no longer do.
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: Could you please tell me how to salt my baby?
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: I believe it's really just kind of before you swaddle them,
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: you pat them down with fine salt. It's even mentioned
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: in the Bible as an example of bad parenting.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I said, the Bible does not support salting your baby.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: You don't know the Bible does that? Yes, that this
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: is not.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Salting your baby would be a problem.
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: Compare someone to an unsalted baby as an example of
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: like this, Well, this child was raised by wolves.
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: I mean that is how I feel about like chicken.
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: You know, if you don't salt it before you cook it,
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: it's very difficult to get the salt in later. But
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: this is a question, which is what on earth would
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: lead someone to think that you should salt your baby.
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: Well, salting and swaddling were part of an idea that
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: helpsway for quite a while that a baby would not
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: acquire human form unless it was imposed on that baby,
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: and the swaddling and the salting were part of that process.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: That if you didn't do that, you might end up
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: with like a throw pillow or you know, a pudding,
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: but not a human baby. And so this was widely done.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: And the salt piece, I'm not exactly sure why that
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: and not you know, some other compound, but widely used.
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: But it's I mean, it is interesting when I think
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: about what's the feedback that you would get that would
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: suggest something works or not right. So much of what
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: happens in parenting, and partly because like a lot of
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: different things work is most of the time, when you
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: salt your baby, it's okay, you know, it's not really
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: a problem. And so then you're like, well, I guess
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: this must be a good idea, because I mean, the
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: mortality rates were very high, but probably not higher for
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: salting not.
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: Salting right right, And also in the swaddling piece of it,
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: actually there was a payoff in an error with high
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: mortality rates. Those infants might live longer just because they
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: could not move. So at a time when there was
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: not a whole lot of supervision of small children and
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: parents had to work and we're busy doing other things,
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: a swaddled child could and sometimes was hung from the wall.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: There were hooks to hang your baby. It could not
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: get out of its cradle, It could not run around,
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: it could not move at all. The one problem was
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: that it could not escape if it were eaten by livestock,
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: which did happen. Animals tended to roam in and out
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: of medieval homes much more than they do now, and
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: children were sometimes eaten and also sometimes nosed by family
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: animals a little too close to the heart and would
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: sometimes times be killed that way.
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: Okay, so when we so, swaddling is something which we
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: still do, although albeit in a somewhat different way than
• 13:12
  Speaker 5: we did back then. Yes, and does have some scientific basis.
• 13:16
  Speaker 5: So there's like pieces of this where there are things
• 13:19
  Speaker 5: you get out of the swattle, not just that you
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: can store it on the wall, but you know, kids,
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: there's something there about they sleep better. So presumably some
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: of the initial impetus for that was good feedback around
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: how kids would react, and then it got codified into
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: something else and had these other benefits, and then it continues.
• 13:38
  Speaker 5: But of course there are presumably other pieces of this
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: did we let go? I mean, I'm curious if there's
• 13:42
  Speaker 5: if you have a sense of how things would fall
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: out of fashion.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, oftentimes when poor
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: people start doing something, that's when fashions change. Yeah, and
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: that will switch, right. We see that a lot with breastfeeding.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: You know, there's that say, when rich people eat brown bread,
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: they best breastfeed their own babies, and when rich people
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: eat white bread, other people do, and this, you know,
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: switches back and forth, and we're back in the brown
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: bread breastfeeding stage now. Yeah, and high mortality rates I think,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: you know, when it becomes clear that something is actually
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: dangerous and we have the science to figure out why
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: that is, a lot of times we don't. For instance,
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: teething was considered one of the deadly last stages of
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: babyhood for a long, long, long time, and there are
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: a lot of deaths in medieval and slightly later British
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: records a death due to teething. It was not due
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: to teething, but other things that tended to happen around
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: that age. It kicked in and people made that connection.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're always seeking causality in our exactly.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So I want to talk about feeding, feeding your
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: kid and about breastfeeding and breast milk because this is
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: a thing which has changed in some ways so frequently
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: over time. You know, how we feed our kids. Can
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: you please tell me about the goats? Can we just
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: start with the goats?
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah? So I really struggled with breastfeeding. And there's an,
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: you know, an enormous guilt that is placed on your
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: shoulders if you do not breastfeed your own children. Is
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: it turns out I could not, my children would have
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: would have died. But at no point in history was
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: that true mother. There were always others who could not
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: or chose not to breastfeed their children, and their children
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: lived because early on we came up with a lot
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: of other ways to keep that child fed and alive.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: The most obvious wet nursing, which dates back to you know,
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: earliest humanity, and then bottles came along much much, much
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: much later. The early bottles were made of clay, intended
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: to be pretty breakable and also not very very sanitary.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: They were not great to you know, sticking a terra
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: cotta tube and a toothless baby's mouth was not the
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: best thing. But one thing that people did tune to
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: when wet nurses weren't available, or even when they were,
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: but tended to carry syphilis was goats. And this was
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: for a few reasons. One was because for a long
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: time it was believed that mother's milk carried not antibodies,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: but moral qualities. It was very important if you chose
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: a wet nurse for your child that that wet nurse
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: have be a good moral person, because the child would
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: absorb their morality. And when moral were and wet nurses
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: couldn't be found, some people, including foundling homes, would turn
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: to goats. There's a book on this called I Think
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: like the Goat as the best and most nourishing wet nurse,
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: and goats could be placed right in the crib, and
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: at some foundling homes they were and so well were
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: considered the most.
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: Moral, as it's the most moral animal, right, it's the
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: most moral, even though it eats garbage. This is always
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: what I wonder about, Like, what is it about the
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: behavior of the goat that makes one think it's moral?
• 17:10
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: I think they're decent parents.
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: I'm sure you're looking at the own animal's own parenting
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: and choosing.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: I also think it.
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, some of the other milk producing animals would
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: not fit well in the crib, like a cow.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right, right right, and pigs maybe, but pigs, you know,
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: really bad reputation. So yeah, the goat.
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: But so over time, you know, we have the sort
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: of wet nurse, we have the goats. Eventually we have
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: better formula, you know, non human milk alternatives. I feel
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: like the moment we are in around breastfeeding takes on.
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: It is like the moral obligation feels much greater than
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: at any of these all these other things. Seem like
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: we're looking for a good solution in the face of
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: complicated environment.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: There's no milk. You know, some has syphilis.
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: We need to go things that are just about like,
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: let's try to get this done. And it has now
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: taken on. This Yeah, this moral obligation in parenting, which
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: feels new although maybe that's not new.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: Moral and really also at a time when you know
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: it is it's harder to get into college then when
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: certainly when I applied, and I defer to you on
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: the data here, but there were some widely quoted studies
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: that you know, showed you got a bonus IQ if
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: a bonus of a few IQ points if you were
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: where breastless studies are not good data.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yes, yes, I was just get it in
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: there for people.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: Okay, that in my marriage only one of us was breastfed.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: That would be me, and it's not the one who
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: went to Harvard. So I don't put a lot of
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: stock into that.
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I do think there's a moment of wanting to
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: do everything to get every possible advantage for our kids,
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: which is perhaps a bit differ then a time.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Period in which half of them would die.
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: And I realized that, you know, there's a big gap
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: between where we are now and where we are then.
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: But there's something in there about the investment in your kids. Okay,
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: I want to talk about science, parenting science, because there
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: was some point, maybe early in the twentieth century, when
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: you start talking in the book about people coming at
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: parenting and the choice of child bearing, parenting whatever we're
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: calling it, with the idea that we are going to
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: use science to like win this or do it right.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: When is the beginning of that idea?
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: So around the turn of the century, the turn of
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: the twentieth century, it was named the Century of the
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: Child and the Idea, which was the name of a
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: book by Ellen Key, and the idea was that you know,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: we've undergone this huge sea change in how much we
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: know about how the world actually works. Scientific principles are
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: being applied to everything, and they start getting applied to
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: child wearing with more and less success. So some of
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: the early proponents of this were Luther emmett Holt, who
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: wrote a very popular child wearing book, but it was extremely,
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: extremely extremely rigid, with these very very very strict timetables.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: Even his daughter in law couldn't follow them. They were
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: pretty unforgiving, and also not all the science was great.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: He had an absolute horror of bananas, I don't know why,
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: but really pushed them as in a very dangerous food
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: for children, and pretty much any uncooked fresh fruit or vegetable.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: The menus in his book are just something called beef juice,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: which I guess is maybe bowl yon, but it's just
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: really the most bland, flavorless, boiled to death foods and
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: it was hard for parents to carry out. I mean,
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: it takes a long time to a mash pure and
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: to stick to these very very strict schedules. And not
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: too long later he's followed by the behaviorists, but he.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: With this just to go to touch on this for me.
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: So what what is your sense of what's the science
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: this guy is is using. Is this I'm an expert
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: and this I think this.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Is what worked for me? Or is it? You know,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I studied people like where where is the science in here?
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: Right? Well, I mean it's not like they spent a
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: lot of time with their own children, So it's it's
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: it's definitely from the lab and not from the home,
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: you know, given that, you know, even sometimes the science
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: is pretty bad. So when the behaviors come a long
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: short time later and really urge parents to avoid giving
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: their children affection, it's John Bradis W. Watson, who was
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: this sort of womanizing, alcoholic, kind of a real Don
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: Draper figure. In fact, he had spent some time as
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: an advertising executive and came up with the concept of
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: the coffee break, which I will thank him for. But
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: he became not just a prominent psychologist but the president
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: of the APA, one of the most prominent psychologists in America.
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: And his science was very iffy, and he did conduct
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: experiments in his own home that his children said were
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: pretty pretty damaging, a lot of them. A lot of
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: depression and unhappiness and mental illness in the family that followed.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: But like one he would like encourage his sons to
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: fight him. He would see how he would try to
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: make them jealous by kissing his wife in front of them.
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: He did a lot of really really weird stuff, and
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: he conducted his experiments in children that were had profound
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: brain damage to begin with. It wasn't good science and
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: it was not good for families.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: And his hit that one.
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: Unlike the banana guy, where some of you know, if
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: your children like bananas, but if they don't get bananas,
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: that's okay, Watson's advice is it's pretty bad. I mean
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: a lot of it is don't don't hug your kid ever.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, don't hug your kids, don't don't kiss
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: your kids. His wife, who was also who's in fact
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: one of his gratitudents I believe, pushed back on that somewhat,
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: but but died young.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: And and do people listen to this right.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: Well, he was wildly influential. I mean, he was the
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: head of the APA who was telling pretty desperate parents
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: who are looking for advice. This is coming up on
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: a time when we're starting to see a little bit
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: more movement in the country, so you might not be
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: living near your own parents. Necessarily, when you have children,
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: you're away from your extended family, so you're not getting
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: that received wisdom and you are looking for outside advice.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: So he's one of the voices. Fortunately, Spot comes along
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: not long after with a very different message.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: After the break more parenting.
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: So let's talk about doctor Spock. He's my favorite parenting expert.
• 24:17
  Speaker 8: As a father. I will tell you this man's book
• 24:21
  Speaker 8: is only outsold in the history of books by one other.
• 24:25
  Speaker 8: The top selling book in the world is the Bible.
• 24:27
  Speaker 8: The second best seller belongs to doctor Spock his books
• 24:31
  Speaker 8: on childcare. I have read your book, Doctor, and I
• 24:35
  Speaker 8: am floored and always have been, by how you call
• 24:38
  Speaker 8: your shots.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: Well, I'll give lots of leeway, you know.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I So what is what is the doctor Spock message?
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: So doctor Spock really changes things. It was for free reasons. One.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: He starts out by being enormously reassuring, which is something
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: parents really needed to hear. He starts off by telling
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: them you know more than you think you do. He
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: lets people know it is pretty hard to do this wrong.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: He says you can follow your instincts. He says you
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: can hug and you can kiss your children. He also
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: says it's okay to follow follow their lead on some things,
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: to feed them when they're hungry, to put them to
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: sleep when they're tired. And one really, really, really simple
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: thing that completely changed things, and it was his innovation.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: There was an index for the first time in his book,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: so that when you were having a crisis in the
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: middle of the night, you could very quickly flip to
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: the page that would address the middle of the night crisis.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: He wrote it himself, and this is something no one
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: had thought to do before.
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: I mean, I find doctor Spock to be like, it's
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: quite sensible is the word I would use for that.
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: It's just it's not I mean, it's not that it's
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: not scientific, but it's also a lot of it is
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: just feels like, oh, that's sensible. Up the middle, up
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: the middle of the road advice.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: It's not real, judge.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: It has aged very well. A few parenting books do.
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, like the Greek guy at the beginning, Like the
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: old Greek guy. It's like that guy and doctor Spock,
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: that's who we should have. Yeah, A little salty salty babies.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: That are kind of eating on a no schedule at all.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: Given my children's diets, and when they were infants, they
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: probably were covered in salt, but it came from.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: So I want to talk about the shift to parents
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: becoming more invested in raising their kids. So we talked
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: about sort of parenting and child rearing. But there's a
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: long period in which parents themselves are not this maybe
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: the central people in their children's lives, or at least
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: for some Maybe that's not true, but that's my impression.
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: There's a point at which it's kind of becomes parents.
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: So I'm curious about how that transition worked.
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: So it's a few things. So and I would you know,
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: at least according to my research, that's pretty true that
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: it's your job to have the children, but not necessarily
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: your job to raise the children. That does start to change.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: There's a few things that can try to that. So
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: the first are Locke and Rousseau, who write a pair
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: of books that encourage parents to raise their own children.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: So here I want to point out Locke had no children,
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: Rousseau had five, gave every one of them up to
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: a family home, so maybe not a lot of hands
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: on experience from either one of them, but they both
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: wrote these these books urging parents to take more interest
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: in their children to invest more in their upbringing. Since
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Locke was a doctor who actually treated children, he did
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: have some experience with them. Rousseau's a philosopher and he's
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: writing a philosophical treatise. That's it. He's not really setting
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: out to write a parenting manual. But parents at the
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: time are pretty starved for exactly that, and so they
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: start raising their children according to the precepts set out
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: in a Meal, which is a philosophical novel, it is
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: not a parenting book. He begins correspondence with many very
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: high high society families, royal families who are raising their
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: children according to this book, sending them outside with very
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: little snow clothing in the wood in the winter, shooting
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: guns near their heads to make them sort of shockproof
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: is a terrible, terrible parenting manual. And although he's encouraging
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: parents to be more hands on, he's also you know,
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: he's not expecting you to change diapers, right that you're
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: supposed to oversee their education, but you are not necessarily
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: doing the hands on day to day stuff. So that
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: starts to change a little bit when with the Puritans.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: So some have said that the parents the Puritans were
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: the first modern parents. They were certainly the first neurotic
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: parents that we see in the record, and I think
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: that's for a few reasons. One is they're very concerned
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: with their children's souls, so parenting becomes this thing that's
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: much too important outsource to the help or even to
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: the mother. Puritan fathers are pretty hands on in a
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: way that we don't see beforehand in a lot of
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: our founding. You know, America's founding fathers were literally founded
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: by fathers. That their memoirs tend to mention their fathers
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: quite a bit. They were very involved in their upbringing.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: And then the final piece of the shift is the
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: Industrial Revolution. Dad's not home, mom is the childbirth rate
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: has gone way down, so that children become, in Viviana
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: Zelazer's phrase, economically worthless but emotionally priceless. And with fewer
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: children the mother at home, she is expected to take
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: on a lot of the day to day hands on
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: child wearing that mothers had not been responsible for up
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: till that time.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: And then we arrive at the present or we're taking
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: on all of the things.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Yea.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: So is there anything in the old parenting advice that
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: you would say This is something people always thought was
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: a good idea and has held up.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: Is there any constant, There's a few, So stay out
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: of your children's fights. There's a long, long, long history
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: of any parent more than one child know that they
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: fight non stop. They are hard wired to. This happens
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: in most species. It's happened throughout history. The Bible is
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: basically just a collection of stories about siblings fighting each other,
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: sometimes to the death. And some of the earlier advice
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: is don't get involved. And once I started using that advice,
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: my children started fighting a lot less. That one was good.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a good piece of advice. Anything else that.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: It's at the lower bar of like pre the pre
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: block pre russo the idea that like it's your job
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: to keep them alive, but it's actually kind of hard
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: to mess them up. I have found really reassuring.
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think seeing that seeing this full range
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: gives you a gives you some sense of you know,
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: people have been doing a version of this for a
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: long time, and you know, with a variety of good
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: and not good ideas, and most of the time.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: It works out.
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, yeah, even when the changes in your behavior
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: are enormous, let alone the kind of very small deltas
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: that we're arguing about exactly.
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and they you know, and they are and we
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: and we do tend to overestimate our sample size. You know,
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: most of us are working with the sample size of
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: like two, and we draw a lot of conclusions from
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: that that we then post on the internet.
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: I feel like we draw a lot of conclusions from
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: the first one, Like you do something you do think
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: they'll work with the first one, and you're like, I'm
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: so great at parenting, look at me.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: And then you have a.
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: Second one and you're like, I am not good at parenting.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: That did not work a second time.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: It's extraordinary, right because pretty much everything else, you put
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: the same ingredients together, you're going to end up with
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: the same product. And kids no so different.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: It's just yea.
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: Yes, we were reflecting on a moment. My kids are
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: four years apart, and we're now like four years out
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: from exactly the time the pandemic started, and so we
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: were sort of thinking back to when my daughter was
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: my son's age, and she was like the older of
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: the two at the beginning of the pandemic, and like
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: she was just like taking care of him like some
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: fraction of the time during the day, Like basically like
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: she was eight and he was four, and now we're
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: just like, I don't think he would be good to
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: take care of a four year old. I mean they
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: weren't home alone or anything, but we would have them
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: like playing outside.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Anyway, They're not the same kid, Yeah, that's for sure.
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, So I have one sort of perhaps related,
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: well sort of the opposite question. So there are things
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: we look back on that people did, like the no
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: bananas or the not hugging, or things where we would
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: now say, boy, that's wrong. Like we have good scientific
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: evidence that bananas are for most people a totally safe
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: food and that it is a good idea to hug
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: your kid, And there's a bunch of things like that.
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: What will people look back on that we are doing now?
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: That is our what is our bananas?
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: My husband and I play this game all the time.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: How are we ruining our children any ways? That will
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: be obvious to them that we do not see now.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: And I would like to just point out here that
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: my mother used to smoke while breastfeeding me. My father
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: is a chest surgeon and my mother is a nurse,
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: and they both swore they didn't know it was bad
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: for you. I think it's the phones. I think it's
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: the unchecked screen use, and I'm not doing a great
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: job of checking it now.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: It's hard.
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: I mean, this is I I don't disagree with you,
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: but I also think this is a sort of societal problem,
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: even more than an individual problem.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, if I if I limited it entirely, it
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: would create a whole new set. It would cut them
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: off socially totally.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: I'm curious if there are things in your parenting that
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: you do differently as a result of this book.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was very useful that I just don't feel
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: guilty anymore. I pretty much never feel guilty just because
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: the bar has been lowered so much for me. And
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: I've also realized that when we take something on, we
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: not only make it our problem, we make it a
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: problem that throughout history, and picky eating being maybe the
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: best example that when parents started with Holt started to
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: get very uptight about what children ate, we suddenly see
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: this epidemic of picky eating, and before that what you
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: see in the literature's complaints that children will eat anything
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: and everything. So I try to ignore problems in the
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: hope and in the faith that they will resolve themselves.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it, all right.
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: I have a couple of rapid fire parenting questions for you.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: You ready, all right?
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: What is one of the most horrifying parenting techniques you
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: came across in your research.
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: Let's see the worst parents of all time. I'm gonna
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: go with the John brought us Watson, the completely hands
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: off thing. He he at one point dreamed of having
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: children raised through a rotting, rotating set of foster homes
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: and never being with their real parents because you know,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: parents are too soft on their own kids, and we'll
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: hug and kiss them. That one's pretty bad. Parents who
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: followed Rousseau's advice to send them naked out in the
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: snow to play with pistols. That one was pretty bad.
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: There were Oh this one I adore, but it ended
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: up not being a great idea. So with Throb Kellogg,
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: who was an Indiana psychologist in the thirties, he raised
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: his own infant side by side with a chimpanzee because
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: they thought the chimpanzee would learn to act like the boy,
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: and the opposite happened. The boy ended up copying the
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: chimpanzee and after a few years they had to discontinue
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: the experiment, but there are very cute pictures of the
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: baby and his chimp brother and their little onesies that
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: it was a failed experiment, but it was a pretty
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: cute one.
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: And what is the most heartwarming parenting, like if you
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: sort of the thing you read and you were like, oh, oh, oh, what.
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: I kind of love is how indulgent parents have been
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: throughout history. And American parents were kind of known for
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: being for really spoiling their kids. And you see some
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: press about how kids run wild in America that they're
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: you know, overindulged. And one of the best examples is
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: the Lincolns.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: The Lincolns really.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: Let their their boys run wild in the White House,
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: including giving them a live ammunition. I believe there were
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: a few explosions in the actual White House, and you know,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: it was it was kind of cute that they love
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: their kids, they wanted to have them, wanted them to
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: have fun, they gave them ammunition.
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: Okay, my last question, what animal would you pick to.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Nurse your baby?
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: Gorilla?
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: Gorilla, it's it's but how will you get it in
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: the crib, Jennifer, how will you get it in the crib?
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. This is such a treat.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much for having me.
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: the parent Data team and PI Rex. If you have
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: thoughts on this episode, please join the conversation on my
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  Speaker 5: Instagram at Prof Emily Oster. And if you want to
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• 38:45
  Speaker 5: about us. Leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts,
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  Speaker 5: Text your friend about something you learned from this episode.
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: Debate your mother in law about the merits of something
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: parents do now that is totally different from what she did.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Post a story to.
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: Your Instagram debunking a panic headline of your own. Just
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: remember to mention the podcast too. Write Penelope right, mam,
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: We'll see you next time.