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A Prairie Dawn Companion - A Conversation with Fran Brill · Muppet Fan Podcasts with ToughPigs.com

0:03
Last week I told you that I'd be interviewing Fran Brill this
0:06
week. Fran Brill who, not counting
0:10
Jane Henson, was the first female puppeteer Jim ever hired.
0:16
Look, you know, I usually talk a lot before the theme song, and
0:20
then sometimes I talk even more before I bring in my guest.
0:23
I won't do that today. I know why you're here, and it's
0:27
not to hear me talk about licensed socks again.
0:30
You can hear me do that next week.
0:32
But to reiterate, Fran Braille is crucial to understanding the
0:35
history of female puppeteers and female Muppets on Sesame Street.
0:40
As we discussed in episode 1 of this show, in the very early
0:44
days of The Muppets, Jane Henson was a true partner to Jim,
0:49
building the cast of Sam and Friends and performing alongside
0:53
him. At first, she was the only other
0:56
puppeteer, then Jim would hire Bob Payne and Jerry Jewell, and
1:01
then Frank Oz. And well, I'm repeating myself.
1:05
But like we said, Jane was busy raising a family during Season 1
1:09
of Sesame Street, while Jim had hired Carolee Wilcox.
1:13
She was predominantly A puppet builder, not a puppeteer, so her
1:17
times performing are few and far between.
1:20
As we've seen in season 1 of Sesame Street, many of the
1:24
female Muppets, many of which were of course mostly just Betty
1:29
Lou with different names, were performed by Frank Oz.
1:34
Don't get me wrong, Frank is an amazing puppeteer, but
1:38
characters are almost always going to feel more genuine when
1:42
they're played by someone with similar experiences.
1:46
That's where Fran Brill comes in.
1:48
I won't tell her story for her, not when you're already champing
1:52
at the bit to hear from her. And yeah, that's champing at the
1:56
bit, not chomping at the bit. Let me explain the difference
1:59
for a second. So, Champ.
2:01
OK, right, right. I'm not going to take as long as
2:05
usual. Let's get things started with a
2:07
very special episode of A Prairie Dawn Companion.
2:12
Ladies and gentlemen, the Starlight Hotel takes great
2:16
pride in presenting the world's favorite 6 year old entertainer,
2:21
Miss Prairie Doll. Come on, girls, girls, girls.
2:26
Let's go do girls stuff. Yeah, stop, stop.
2:31
You play a song with a beats. So I want to start by talking a
2:49
little bit about, you know, the early days and, and how you how
2:53
you joined up with the, the Henson team and it's a story
2:56
that you've told a couple times. You you a couple.
3:03
I was. Trying to be nice.
3:05
Whole world. Yeah, you.
3:07
You, you, you saw an ad in the paper for for Henson performers
3:11
and Oh yeah. Right.
3:14
And you applied and apparently you spoke to Jim Henson directly
3:19
when you applied? Yes, this.
3:21
You know, this would never happen today.
3:23
But when I came, I came to New York with the Broadway show, and
3:27
the show closed very rapidly. It really wasn't right for
3:32
Broadway. It was a transference of a show
3:35
from a regional theater. We opened in a snowstorm and it
3:39
closed very rapidly. But hey, I got to New York.
3:43
So I saw an ad in Backstage, which is, or was, I don't know
3:48
if it's exists anymore, one of those periodicals, you know, for
3:51
actors trying to get jobs. And I had been watching Sesame
3:55
Street because when I came with this show from Atlanta,
4:00
actually, I, I watched it to cheer myself up.
4:04
And I watched Mr. Roger's Neighborhood because now I was
4:08
just an actress like everybody else, struggling to earn some
4:12
money and get work and all of that business.
4:15
So I, I and they were paying, paying to take this workshop.
4:23
So I really did it just as a goof, you know, because I
4:28
thought, oh, these are people, They must be cool, you know.
4:30
Anyway, so I got accepted into this workshop after going
4:34
through several times of auditioning.
4:39
You know, there were a few of us leftover and we did this.
4:42
Ed Sullivan Christmas Special with Art Carney.
4:46
And out of that group, Jim asked Richard Hunt and me if we wanted
4:53
to do Sesame Street in the fall. I think we shot that in the
4:58
summertime. So I thought, no, you know, like
5:02
this was a fun thing, but I really wanted to be an actress.
5:06
And he said, well, you know, we'll just work around your
5:10
schedule. I mean, he was crazy, you know,
5:13
he was. So he understood because you
5:16
know, when you really want to go left, but somebody's going, hey,
5:20
right is pretty good over here. You know, it's hard to make a
5:24
decision. So he just, you know, it was
5:26
very easy said, you know, just try it, do it.
5:29
So anyway, that's really how I ended up on Sesame Street.
5:33
And yes, all the female characters, if they wrote them,
5:37
were played by the guys, you know, who just went into their
5:41
falsetto, which to me is even funnier, you know, just to hear
5:46
a man try to get it up there. So does that answer your
5:51
question? Yeah, I mean basically so.
5:54
So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, and, and I, I'm,
5:58
I'm pretty sure you've said this before too, but it wasn't like
6:00
you had, you weren't actively setting out to become a
6:03
puppeteer or anything like that. It was just, it was, it was just
6:08
a job that seemed like it could be fun.
6:10
And, and you, you joined. So at at the time you know, on
6:16
on Sesame Street, especially in that you know when you when you
6:20
eventually started there and by my records, it looks like that
6:23
was would have been like season two in the seven in 1970 it.
6:29
Was because the first air showed in November of 69.
6:35
OK, so then it was on. You know, of course it wasn't on
6:39
all year, but the next fall was season was 7071.
6:45
Yeah, that's when I joined up, which seems like a really long
6:50
time ago. And it was.
6:54
I wasn't going to say that. I wasn't going to say that.
6:58
But. You know, was it, was it odd
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because at the time you were, you were basically the only
7:04
female puppeteer on the show. You know, there were some, there
7:08
were some women in the workshop, but not, not really much in the
7:14
way of female puppeteers. So what was that experience
7:16
like? Was it, I mean, maybe it, maybe
7:19
it was not you, maybe you didn't even notice, but what was it
7:23
like? I didn't really, I I just loved
7:25
it. First of all, I just loved all
7:28
the guys and I've always liked men and being around men and
7:33
almost more than women. But that's not true now, because
7:36
I have a lot of fabulous women friends and that would be very
7:39
unfair. But you know, I was very
7:41
comfortable. So whenever they would throw at
7:44
me, you know, I, I would just bounce it right back to them,
7:48
you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't a problem.
7:52
It wasn't them against me. It just changed in a way their
7:56
dynamic. You know, if all of a sudden you
7:58
throw something else into the this company of five guys.
8:04
So it, it just changed it up a little bit, but, you know, just
8:09
wasn't that big a deal. Sure.
8:11
That's, I mean, that's great. One day, you know, after doing
8:17
right hands and stuff like that did Jim did come up to me one
8:22
day and said and with this little teeny tiny puppets and
8:26
who I have up there. Yeah, I can see.
8:29
I can see her up there. When I retired, they were very
8:33
nice and gave me me on my own Prairie Dawn in an acrylic box
8:38
with the arm wires even in her hands so I can take her out.
8:43
But I have not. It's it's they have to mad her
8:46
out and get up there. And yeah, unless somebody paid
8:50
me a lot of money, Sure, sure. No, I I wouldn't do that.
8:57
Did I answer your question? Yeah, I mean, that was, that was
9:01
basically, basically it. And like, so you, you know,
9:05
season 2, I, I've been, I've been going back and, and, and,
9:10
and doing some reading and stuff.
9:12
Season 2, you were, you were on the show a bunch, mostly as
9:16
Betty Lou. And we'll, we'll talk a little
9:18
bit about Betty Lou in a second. But then after Season 2, from
9:25
like 71 to 1990, you appeared a lot more sporadically on the
9:31
show. Yeah, 'cause I, you know, to me
9:34
this was just a little lark and I never meant to do it full time
9:38
at all. So that's when I was busy doing
9:41
theater, you know, theater, commercials, plays, you know, I
9:46
just wanted to keep my theatrical career alive since I
9:52
never really wanted to be a puppeteer.
9:55
So sometimes they work their schedule around me a little bit,
9:59
like they would just do inserts in the summertime.
10:03
So Jim would call and and he would say, OK, we've written
10:07
scripts for Prairie Dawn, you know, are you available the week
10:12
of blah, blah, blah. And then I would shoot some of
10:15
that stuff. So he, you know, he couldn't
10:17
have been more wonderful in terms of letting me kind of keep
10:22
all of these plates going. How how is working besides the
10:27
obvious thing, how was working on, you know, those sets like
10:31
the commercial sets and the theater sets different than
10:34
working working on Sesame besides the obvious thing, you
10:37
know, there were puppets on Sesame Street that that's you
10:40
know, that's one thing. I I wouldn't even, I wouldn't
10:43
even put them in the same field. Being a puppeteer is so
10:48
difficult and so, so different that I, I, I really wouldn't
10:55
even be able to find the same thing to relate to with acting
11:00
or, you know, they're just different skills.
11:05
They are performances, but they use different parts of a view is
11:12
what I would say. But they're definitely separate
11:14
in my own mind. Sure.
11:18
So let's let's let's get into get into talking a little bit
11:23
about some of the characters. And as we talk, you know,
11:26
obviously if other things from your life story come up as part
11:30
of that, I'd love to hear it. But you know, so figure we'll
11:35
start with the big one, which is Prairie Dawn.
11:37
Again, my favorite. You've got you've got a ton of
11:41
Prairie Dawn stuff behind you. When When you were first
11:46
presented with Prairie Dawn, what did you have in mind for
11:51
her as a character? Did you have anything in mind
11:54
for her as a character? I I the first thing that
11:58
happened is that Jim walked across the studio floor holding
12:02
up this little puppet one day and he said, we've got this
12:08
little girl puppet and, you know, do you want to see what
12:14
you can do with her? It was a real loosey goosey.
12:16
And so she's so small, I mean, really tiny compared to the
12:22
boys, the OO and Cookie Monster and Ernie and Bert.
12:28
So I just went up right here, you know, to sort of A and he
12:32
said, oh, he said he wanted her to be very sweet.
12:36
So, you know, I, I sort of gagged at that one And but
12:42
anyway, so I. I tried.
12:44
So I put her up here and I made her sort of wispy voice, and
12:48
that's the way she was for a long time.
12:51
And then she got a lot more courageous and, you know.
12:55
So some of the whispier stuff went out, but I always kept her
12:59
voice up here because she was a six year old little girl.
13:03
I think that that balance, that balance between, you know, the
13:09
the the sort of sweetness of Prairie Dawn and like you said
13:12
that that courageousness that started to sort of come out is
13:16
really what makes her such an interesting character to me.
13:20
And you know, was that I guess that was a conscious decision to
13:23
sort of bring that out and her, you know, like her sort of
13:27
leadership stuff and her, her, her type A personality and
13:32
stuff. I feel like took a while to come
13:34
out. But was that a conscious
13:35
decision on your part? Well, not really that that was
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because the the early, early scripts had her kind of, she's
13:46
just a sweet little girl. But then I don't know who wrote
13:51
a pageant for Prairie Dawn. And I guess it was around the at
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the same time they decided Perry could play the piano so and
14:02
badly, of course she had to play it badly.
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So, you know, the Dave Connor who was our, our wonderful
14:12
singing person, you know, would always be playing wrong notes
14:17
because it was very hard for Prairie to read the music, sing
14:21
and, you know, look at the keyboard.
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So all the, all of that stuff got to be pretty funny and
14:26
clever and we loved it. And then they, they wrote things
14:31
like pageants. And the pageants were all these
14:35
boys, you know, who are kind of doofuses at doing this sort of
14:39
thing. And Prairie became very no, no,
14:43
no, that's not right. Let's do it again, you know, And
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that gave her, you know, she was, she, I hate to say she was
14:52
full of herself. She became a secure, a very
14:55
secure little 6 year old girl who, who didn't run into the
15:00
corner, you know, or something. It's and cry.
15:05
And I think that's what made her funny is because she was so
15:08
small, smaller than any of the other characters, and yet she
15:12
had a lot of confidence. Oh, welcome, dear viewer, to our
15:19
little plane. We're ever so glad that you
15:24
joined us today. And now it is time for our drama
15:31
to start. Whoops.
15:33
For here comes a young man who calls himself Bart.
15:39
Well, actually, I'm Ernie. You know, I'm not barred at all.
15:41
But in this play, I'm pretending to be barred just.
15:43
Because that was the way it was written.
15:44
When? Just do your lines.
15:49
Do you have a favorite memory of of performing her?
15:54
Yike. That's OK if you don't.
15:57
No, no, I mean. You hated all of it.
15:59
You hated all of it. I'm going to write that down.
16:03
Oh, not quite, no, let's see the favorite.
16:06
Well, I just I did love doing the pageants because it it gave
16:11
me a lot to do because the the boys, the characters were always
16:14
very sort of surly, like, oh God, she's written another
16:18
pageant. We've got to be in it.
16:20
And they would trudge on stage, as you know, of spring or summer
16:25
or whatever. If I if it was about the
16:27
seasons. So that's always fun when you've
16:30
got an opposite thing going on, you know, but a favorite one.
16:35
Oh, well, yes, because when she decided that she could probably
16:40
produce movies and possibly run the network at some point, they
16:46
wrote this fun stuff for her like singing in the rain.
16:49
Are you familiar with that one of?
16:51
Course I am. OK, well, I love that one
16:53
because it did teach about weather and stuff, but but she,
16:58
you know, she got very rattled by the fact that everything was
17:02
going the wrong way all. Right, All right, I, I don't
17:07
blame you. I do not blame you People.
17:08
Can we get this right? And we're going to be here all
17:11
day. All right, Now I'm going to say
17:14
action. And this time I want to see
17:15
rain. Lots of nice wet rain light.
17:18
Get out of my seat. Here we go.
17:24
Here we go, Honestly, take it in the rain.
17:30
Take 3 and. Action.
17:36
And the writers liked that. They, they liked writing stuff
17:40
for her that would be challenging.
17:44
You know, that here's this tiny little girl, but she thinks
17:48
she's a director. You know, it's, it's the
17:50
opposite stuff. It's like when somebody puts on
17:55
a a big puppet of a man, let's say, and and yet there's a voice
18:01
up here, you know, that's gets you a laugh or voice that's a
18:05
small puppet with a booming voice.
18:08
So that's what we kind of look for when you're doing that job.
18:13
Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things I'm glad you
18:16
mentioned Singing in the Rain, because one of the things that I
18:19
always really enjoyed pretty much from Singing in the Rain
18:22
forward was the stuff that you did with Frank's characters with
18:26
Grover and and and Cookie. And I think there was such a fun
18:31
dynamic of Grover and Cookie kind of being very wild and
18:35
chaotic and and Prairie getting increasingly frustrated with
18:40
them. That was always very fun and and
18:42
always kind of reminded me of the stuff that Jim and Frank
18:47
would do with Kermit and Cookie and Kermit and Grover.
18:51
I don't know if that was like an influence or if it was just
18:54
another fun window that you that you found it's.
18:57
Just Frank. That makes sense.
19:00
And between takes would be very funny with her, just super
19:05
funny. He would look under her skirt
19:08
and I would say, yes, it's Tuesday.
19:11
You know, because little girls back then sometimes had panties
19:16
that had Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday on them.
19:20
So that became sort of a little running gag that he would do in
19:24
between takes and peek under and say, oh, you know, it's
19:28
Wednesday. Anyway, yeah, there was a lot of
19:31
comedy that never was shot because it happens in between
19:36
eggs. But I remember one that I
19:38
thought was very clever was Monster Piece Theater.
19:42
Do you remember that? I do.
19:44
OK. And Frank always, you know,
19:46
Alistair Cookie and. And then he did some with
19:50
Prairie and I remember one of them was little.
19:54
Well, I guess it was Little House on the Prairie, Waka Waka.
19:59
So, so we we did that and, you know, just, I don't know, the
20:06
writers were just fantastic at that time.
20:10
It it was a different time. There's just, I mean, they're
20:12
very good too now. But this, the whole show has
20:15
changed a lot, you know, from the good old days.
20:19
But that's what happens. New producers.
20:22
The times are changing, you know, stuff like that.
20:26
So it's, you know, now it's sort of virtuous.
20:31
You know, there's a puppet for every problem.
20:35
I, I, I call it, but it what, what did I come up with?
20:39
Oh, puppets with a purpose or? Yeah, I mean, I'd, I'd love to,
20:45
I'd love to hear some of your. I mean, I guess you kind of
20:47
already said that, but like you, you know, did you feel the show
20:51
was changing while you were on it still?
20:54
Because obviously you retired, you know, a few years ago, about
20:59
10 years ago, right? But did you?
21:03
Were you, did you feel like the show was changing from the 70s,
21:08
you know, through the 90s and 2000s?
21:11
Well, what happened is that with every executive producer we
21:15
would get, they wanted to change the shop.
21:18
Yeah, because that's why they were hired to come in and make
21:21
changes. So season 25, it all moved
21:27
outdoors. There were there, there was a
21:32
laundromat, there was a fix it shop, you know, and they, it was
21:39
all around the set because that was that producer's idea.
21:43
And so I don't know, it constantly changes and now it's,
21:56
you know, really different, really, really different.
21:59
So and I may change even more in this coming year when it it just
22:04
was announced that Netflix is going to produce the show.
22:10
We're we're recording this for for folks at home.
22:12
We're recording this the day after it was announced that
22:16
Sesame would be moving to Netflix.
22:18
Yeah, because everybody thought this might be the end.
22:22
Yeah. So that's was, you know, great
22:26
that this has happened. And I knew Sherry Rollins, the
22:29
executive producer, would find somebody.
22:32
The question was when? So that that's been a good day
22:37
for Sesame Street because I actually thought, Oh my
22:39
goodness, is it going to go off the air after?
22:42
I don't even know how many seasons it is now.
22:44
It's way past 55. I don't know.
22:48
It's like it's like 56. 56, right?
22:51
That's probably season 56, yeah. Did I answer your question?
22:56
Yes, you did. No, no, no, this is this is
22:58
great. This is exactly this is exactly,
23:01
exactly what I wanted. Let's actually let's actually
23:05
move to a character who you might have less to say about,
23:10
but we'll see. We actually the the week, the
23:14
week before this on the podcast, we talked a bunch about Betty
23:18
Lou and you're, you're laughing already.
23:23
It feels like there isn't really that much to say about Betty
23:27
Lou. Supposed to be just another, you
23:31
know, unless you have a reason for a puppet.
23:34
But they just Oh well, I guess we need another puppet.
23:37
So I ended up doing both puppets, which is, you know, a
23:40
loony, but you know, it's all a process.
23:43
And Betty Lou was like the same puppet but with a different, you
23:47
know, different hairdo. And she, her voice was a little
23:52
lower, you know, than prairies. It wasn't quite so winsome.
23:56
And, you know, the base basic thing was, oh, yeah, Prairie
24:01
John is the one with the pageboy and Betty Lou is the one with
24:05
the pigtails, you know, and they merchandise them like that in,
24:09
in books and for, you know, Sesame Street books and stuff
24:12
like that. Sure.
24:14
But I did both of them so. Do you have any, do you have any
24:18
thoughts and memories on her or just, you know, sort of like, I
24:22
feel like you didn't even perform her for that long.
24:26
You know, certainly compared to Prairie it it was just, you
24:29
know, Hey, I might as well ask since we were talking about some
24:32
of those old sketches you did and some of the songs you did
24:36
with her, like a vowel family song, but not a not a ton.
24:40
Oh boy, you. Want to do this now?
24:44
Yeah. OK, here we go.
24:47
You take an R, that's her and an Ann.
24:51
You pull them all together and they spell RAM.
24:54
That's ran. RAN, Ram.
24:58
That's ran, RAN, Ran. You take an R, that's her and an
25:04
Ann. You pull them all together and
25:07
they spell ran. I'm going to get another one.
25:09
OK. Oh, this is lots.
25:11
Of fun. No, the the other female
25:15
character was Roxy. Roxy.
25:19
Roxy. Yes, Roxy Marie.
25:21
And I loved Roxy Marie I. Actually wanted to talk to you a
25:24
little bit about Roxy Marie because she was one of my
25:27
favourites when I when I was little.
25:30
I was, I was, I was a kid when when she and she and Zoe were
25:35
on. We'll obviously get to Zoe, but
25:39
Roxy was fun and I loved the accent you did for Roxy.
25:43
She. Was New York, wasn't she?
25:46
Because she was Biff Sinise and the way Jerry did Biff.
25:51
So I figured and you know, Biff with was a little slow, but Roxy
25:57
loved him and would never want to hurt his feelings or anything
26:00
like that. So they wrote some really sweet
26:04
scripts for them. Hey, Uncle Biff.
26:07
Hey, Roxy, What's going on here? Well, I'm just working on my
26:11
geography homework. Oh, geography, ha ha, that's
26:16
maps and stuff, right? Like this here.
26:21
Globe. Globe Yeah.
26:23
You know, Rox, your Uncle Biff was a geography ace when he was
26:27
your age. And I also said, hey, we don't
26:30
have anybody here who doesn't who wears glasses and why don't
26:34
we have a a public? So, yeah, I don't know why Roxy.
26:39
I think then we got to a period at Sesame Workshop where they
26:43
said there's too many characters.
26:45
The children need to focus on a handful of characters.
26:49
So all of these other characters who could have been terrific,
26:54
you know, were just not written for because they concentrated on
26:59
the meeting, you know, females and the leading males.
27:03
But I, I just loved the relationship she had with Sully,
27:07
her uncle. And, you know, that's, that's
27:13
it's just, it's just what happens, you know, nothing stays
27:15
the same. And a show like that, with new
27:18
directors and producers and writers coming in.
27:23
So actually, you know, that that that does take me talking about
27:27
Roxy a little bit too, You know, the the 90s and we already
27:31
mentioned the singing in the rain sketch with with Prairie.
27:35
And obviously the big thing you did in the 90s was Zoe, who
27:39
we'll get to in a second. But that's, you know, that was
27:43
such a such a huge change the show made in the 90s.
27:48
But I guess the first question is like, was there any
27:50
particular reason why you came back and started doing the show
27:54
more in the 90s? Because it felt like in the 90s,
27:58
like Zoe was on basically every episode and there was a bunch of
28:03
Prairie still. Not as much as Zoe, but a bunch
28:05
of Prairie. Any particular reason you you
28:09
you came back to doing it more regularly?
28:11
Yes, the fork in the road. At that point in the 90s, I had
28:19
gone back to acting quite a bit and doing movies and blue, blue,
28:24
blue. And I had nothing whatsoever to
28:28
do with Sesame Street during that time.
28:31
And then one day I got this phone call from Michael Lohman,
28:36
who was the new producer. I had hadn't even met him yet.
28:41
And he said, hi, Fran, it's Michael Lohman.
28:45
And, and so he, he kind of made an offer that I couldn't refuse.
28:54
You know, he just said, we want you to create not exactly a
28:59
female version of Elmo, but Elmo's best friend.
29:03
You know, she would be a monster.
29:05
She would be 3 years old at that point, I think.
29:11
I think they had a drawing of her and she became orange simply
29:16
because there were two, at least two, if not 3 blue characters.
29:21
There was no idea about merchandising or anything at
29:24
that time. You know, they just sort of
29:27
said, well, we, he, Elmo needs a best friend and she's, she's
29:31
gonna be a girl. And so I had nothing to go on
29:37
except this drawing the puppet designer at that time had
29:42
designed. And her face was very, very
29:45
wide. Like, you know, really wide.
29:48
And they just said, you know, that's it, we just want you to
29:54
create a character. So I did improvise some with
29:59
with Elmo just to find out who she was 'cause I had no idea who
30:04
she was. Nothing to go on except this big
30:07
mouth. So when I first started, I did I
30:10
sort of was doing like Carol Channing because Fanning, you
30:15
know, is well, she has such a weird voice, but at any way, I
30:20
just took that from what she looked like.
30:23
And then when I got to the set, it was so exhausting to do the
30:26
voice of Carol Channing there. The I just, I mean, I literally
30:32
came on that set the first day so nervous because I really
30:36
didn't have a character for her. All I knew is that they wanted
30:39
her to be very upbeat and fun and play with the boys.
30:43
And that's, that's just not enough, you know?
30:47
So I really found out who she was when I improvised with
30:51
Kevin. That helped a lot.
30:54
So no. Does that answer your question?
30:59
Yeah. So, so basically you, you came
31:02
back, you came back explicitly for Zoe.
31:05
Died. That's when Jim passed away,
31:09
which is a 93. I think it was 92. 90 actually,
31:14
but. 90 OK, that's when they pulled me back in and I, I
31:19
thought about it and I said, you know what, this is for Jim, I've
31:23
got it. I've got to come back and do
31:25
this for him because he would have wanted me to do that.
31:29
So, you know, I don't know. I, I came back and they, they
31:34
also, they also just made it more appealing for me and that's
31:40
all. Sure, So how did playing Zoe
31:44
compare to playing Prairie and some of the other older
31:47
characters? Well, by then Prairie was pretty
31:52
well established in my mind and they pretty much told me what
31:58
they wanted from Zoe, that they she wanted, they wanted her to
32:01
be, you know, play with the boys and happy go lucky and and not
32:09
necessarily loud. But I don't know.
32:12
And really the scripts are what kind of led me to the character
32:17
too, because I saw her doing certain things and she was more
32:26
of a tomboy back then, I think. But I mean, you hate to label
32:30
these people in the store. She well, she was, she was the
32:35
opposite of Prairie who carried A hanky when they first made
32:40
Prairie Dawn, she carried A hanky and she wore those smart
32:43
dresses and you couldn't get more girly girly than that.
32:48
So they wanted me to, you know, just sort of do the opposite
32:51
thing with Zoe. Wait, I.
32:55
Know called Popper Tate the. Pop Oh, I know you mean
33:00
cooperate. You said who property don't.
33:04
Joke me, I mean cooperate. And, and how was it different?
33:13
Just sort of like being in in so many episodes and stuff with Zoe
33:18
and and because again, like I said, she was in everything when
33:23
I when I was little in the 90s. I guess so.
33:26
I mean, I mean, I it's hard to remember, but she, she seems to
33:32
me they wrote a lot of scripts for her.
33:35
Yeah, one of the one of my favorite scripts for her in
33:42
case. What I was actually going to
33:44
ask. Look at you predicting my
33:45
questions. She had something called a Zoe
33:54
mobile, which was great. I loved it.
33:57
And I, you know, it was very difficult to perform in because
34:00
I was all scrunched up in this little car with my arm coming
34:04
out of the top. But it was a a cool thing for
34:07
her to have and she loved driving it.
34:10
And Oh yeah, it was, it was a great idea.
34:13
And then they wrote a show where Telly Telly and Elmo wanted to
34:23
take a ride. They wanted to borrow the car
34:26
and take a ride in it. And she was very cautious about
34:33
that. She was crazy about the idea,
34:36
but she she thought that she should be a good egg and let
34:40
them drive the car. Well, they crashed it.
34:44
I don't know if you saw that. And it just was heartbreaking
34:48
for her. And they promised her they would
34:51
fix it up and all of this stuff. But it gave Zoe this wonderful
34:57
thing of her being just devastated, you know, and crying
35:01
and sorrow. You never, you never saw a
35:06
puppet do that, you know, But it was a good, a good learning
35:11
thing because she's sort of, you know, I guess the teachable
35:15
moment was that, you know, they would fix it.
35:19
Nobody died and you know, and everything would be OK again.
35:26
And to still care for your friends because they didn't mean
35:31
to wreck it. So you know, it was, it was one
35:35
of my favorite shows with her because she was really upset
35:38
too, so. Come on, my, my, my Zoe mobile,
35:47
my beautiful Zoe mobile Zoe. Zoe, are you OK?
35:58
No, I feel really, really sad. So do I.
36:05
It was an accident, Zoe. Just rolled away.
36:10
My poor Zoe Mobile 0. Boy, Zoe, Yeah.
36:17
It's other than, you know, or anger, you know, it was great.
36:22
I mean, I actually got weepy doing it because I don't know, I
36:27
was her. And it, you know, it was, it was
36:31
a sweet show, But that's that's the only one that stands out in
36:36
my mind. Yeah, I mean, you know, I I have
36:38
to ask, and I'm sure you've been asked a ton about this lately
36:41
because it feels like all of a sudden everyone started paying
36:44
attention to this again. But the the stuff you did with
36:48
Kevin, with Zoe and Rocco is just so funny.
36:56
Zoe and Elmo and Rocco was always so funny and you know, I
37:01
was was a lot of that ad libbed or, or you know, like, I guess
37:05
were you? I mean, I know obviously there
37:07
were scripts. I, I, I you know, I know how the
37:09
show works, but. We have to commend Joey
37:14
Mazzarino. He's the one that decided that
37:17
Zoe would have a pet rock and he named it Rocco.
37:22
So, you know, I was just, I love Joey's writing always the her
37:27
his were so great and so giving her this stupid rock, which she,
37:34
you know, loved so much. And and I don't know, I mean, I
37:38
think she really, I think she pretended, you know, that Rocco
37:43
talked and stuff like that. But she she was a bit
37:47
manipulative with Rocco, but the scripts he wrote were just
37:53
hysterical with with Elmo. So we had a great time with
37:58
those. And I don't know, I loved her
38:00
having this sticky kind of thing, you know, carrying Rocco
38:05
around and making people do well, no.
38:08
Rocco. Rocco doesn't want to play on
38:11
the swings, right? Now.
38:13
Rocco wants to go be a. Clown, you know, stuff like
38:17
that. It's it was great opportunities.
38:22
I'm playing with Rocco. Hello, Rocco.
38:27
Hey Amo, could you please watch Rocco for a minute?
38:31
Any, any, any other, you know, memories or things you want to
38:35
add? You know, I do want to, I do
38:36
want to get into some other general questions, but just as
38:39
long as we're on the characters, you know, any, any other
38:44
characters you you feel like you want to talk about or.
38:47
You always thought it would be fun to have Zillion Prairie talk
38:52
to each other, you know, but that really doesn't doesn't.
38:54
Work. It would, it would be fun, but
38:56
yeah, I guess that would be a little difficult.
38:58
You'd have to do like dubbing and stuff.
39:01
For sure. You know, so we, we, we were
39:04
talking a little bit about this off mic and, you know, but one
39:10
of the things that kind of I'm, I'm thinking a lot about with
39:13
this show is why it took Sesame so long to, to get a, a female
39:21
character that was really like as important as the male
39:25
characters. Because obviously Prairie and
39:28
Betty were, were around, you know, in 1970 and, and all of
39:33
this, but it really wasn't until Zoe and then definitely when
39:38
Abby comes around in like 2006 or whatever, then it's really
39:43
cemented. But before that there really
39:46
wasn't a, a, a female muppet who, who was standing on, on par
39:53
with the boys. And I was, I'm curious if you
39:55
have any sort of insight or thoughts into that, because
39:58
obviously no one, no one has more experience with this than
40:02
you. So.
40:05
Well, I think what happened is it was it was the 90s and I
40:11
think people were saying, you know, where are the female
40:14
characters? And, you know, it's all boys.
40:18
And I know Dulcie Singer was the producer at the time, and it was
40:25
the women's movement and all sorts of things like that.
40:28
And it's like, why are there just male characters here?
40:32
So that's really how Prairie got on the air.
40:39
And because Prairie I, I don't know, I, I mean, I got my
40:43
decades mixed up a little, but certainly the 90s were Zoe.
40:49
And that's because we had this new producer and he, he just
40:53
said, you know, we need to have more female characters.
40:57
I think Rosita may have about. Two years earlier, Zoe, But it
41:04
was, yeah, it was close. Yeah, I know, I know.
41:07
This all runs together. I I can't imagine this is just
41:10
'cause I just looked this stuff up because I was prepping for
41:13
this. We hate it.
41:16
We research. Yeah.
41:17
No, it's just. My memory to go.
41:19
But yeah, so it would have been around the same time and and
41:22
like you were saying, you know, like we were saying, Prairie
41:25
really started to appear more, I feel like in the 90s as well.
41:30
Before that you were on the album's a lot.
41:33
And I can see you have a a gold record over there.
41:37
I'm not sure which one that's for, but I.
41:43
Might have been Muppet Show because.
41:47
It was. So it might have been for The
41:48
Muppet Show, but still, obviously Prairie was on the
41:51
albums a lot. But you know, in the in the 70s
41:53
and 80s pageants and occasionally the the game show
41:58
sketches, which were always so funny.
42:01
You know, what's Prairie's problem?
42:03
And the triangle is right and all of that.
42:05
But it was really in the 90s. And yeah, so you're, you're
42:08
saying kind of like the producers were thinking about
42:11
the women's movement and stuff and that just wasn't, wasn't on
42:16
their mind as much in the 70s and 80s, I guess.
42:19
I don't think so. Because they were all men, you
42:22
know, Why would they? Why would they think they needed
42:25
a female? You know, it's, it's just
42:28
typical, you know? It's I.
42:32
Mean, I don't, I don't chastise them for it, but you know, they
42:35
had male puppeteers. So the male puppeteers did
42:39
everything. And then I think people started
42:42
saying where are the female characters?
42:45
And Chelsea Singer at that point just said, Graham, you got AI
42:53
don't know. It's somewhere in there.
42:55
That's how that happened. It just seemed obvious that they
42:58
were all males and they wanted the real thing.
43:01
They wanted a woman who did a female character.
43:06
What? What do you think sesame like
43:09
does? This is such a such a big vague
43:13
question. So tell me if if if it doesn't
43:16
make sense. But like, what do you think
43:17
Sesame does well with its its female characters and the ones
43:21
you play and and Rosita and Abby.
43:24
And obviously there's more now, but I know you haven't been on
43:28
the show in a while, but like, what do you think?
43:33
I I know it's changed. Yeah, it, it's, it's very
43:37
different than the, the show that I, I, you know, I watched
43:41
when I was growing up in the, in the, you know, 80s and 90s.
43:46
I should check it out one of these days, but when I left in
43:49
2014, I don't know. I just never looked back and
43:53
then I couldn't. Get it?
43:54
I mean, again, it's, you know, it was, it was a part of your,
43:59
you know, again, it was a, it was a part of your life.
44:01
And now, now it isn't, you know, and that's, that's OK.
44:04
That's how. That's how life is.
44:06
But that is right, you move on. Yeah, we're just talking about
44:11
like what, what you think they do Well, you know, like for, for
44:15
girls watching at home, you know?
44:19
Right. Well, I think they they have
44:24
given the female characters much more.
44:28
You know, the word autonomy is popping up, but I'm not sure
44:32
that's the right word for what I'm thinking about.
44:35
You know, they write solid, solid situations for these
44:40
female characters now, just like they would for the guys.
44:43
So I think that's better. And then with Abby, they really
44:50
got their act together and said, first of all, let's not make her
44:54
orange. Let her call her a little girl's
44:57
like so they made her lilac and then they made her a fairy.
45:02
You know, it's, it's, it's just the way people start thinking
45:08
differently as the years go by. So and, and Leslie does a
45:13
fantastic job with the character and she's adorable.
45:17
And if she fits everything she offers as a puppeteer, that
45:23
character is good for the show. That's I guess what I'm trying
45:29
to say. I've had the pleasure of meeting
45:31
Leslie, you know, a couple times and it's amazing.
45:34
Like Abby is just such a perfect fit for her.
45:38
Like whether she's performing Abby or not, I feel like she
45:41
acts and sounds the same. Abby, she, she lives in a dream
45:48
world. She's, you know, she's, she's
45:54
very mature. I mean, she's not a young girl
45:56
anymore, but she can bring that up and make Abby just a lovely
46:03
little creature and, you know, she's got everything going for
46:08
her. So I have to commend her.
46:10
But it helped a little bit that she was Violet and Fairy, you
46:14
know, Zoe was a monster. It's, you know, they just, you
46:20
know, you learn, you just, there's, there's no way to know
46:22
what you know in the 2000s that you should have thought about in
46:26
the 1970s. You know, there's, it's, it's
46:31
just clear. Yeah, I mean, it's it's one of
46:33
those things. And again, like on the on the
46:35
show, this show, not Sesame Street, my show, you know, I've
46:40
been I've been looking back and and going, like I said, really
46:43
in depth. Like, you know, you were
46:46
laughing when I'm like, Oh, yeah, we talked a lot about
46:48
Betty Lou last week. But like, you know, I literally
46:52
went back and found all of the old clips that had, you know,
46:55
you performing Betty Lou in them.
46:57
And it's one of those things where, you know, hindsight is
47:02
2020. Like, it's one thing for me to
47:04
look back and, you know, at this clip from 1971 and be like, I
47:08
kind of wish Betty Lou had more to do.
47:11
You know, that was 5054 years ago like.
47:18
It was, it was amazing that there was even a female
47:21
character on it all, you know, but everything to grows changes.
47:27
It's, you know, and now they've got a Japanese puppet and and a
47:32
African American puppet and his son and whatever goes on and on
47:37
and on. It's.
47:38
It's a different, it's a different way of thinking about
47:40
the show, just like you were even saying with like Abby being
47:44
sort of like a different way of thinking about the show than
47:46
Zoe. Like what will appear, what what
47:51
will appeal to the girls, you know, thinking like, I was just
47:57
going to say it was it's it's like the it's like cars.
48:00
You know, when you only know about a horse and carriages or
48:05
horses and buttons, and then somebody comes along and invents
48:09
a car. You know, this is, you know,
48:12
we're like a plane and now we send rockets and things up in
48:17
the air and it's, it's evolution, that's all.
48:20
It's just. Evolution, you know, again, I,
48:22
I, I really do, I really do want to commend like I was saying and
48:26
like you were saying, the stuff is the stuff is still so funny
48:30
and so fun to watch from those from those early days.
48:34
And again, you know, as I said at the beginning with Prairie
48:38
being my favorite, like you are so funny when, when they, you
48:43
know, when the scripts let you be you, you are, you are such a
48:46
funny performer. And that was always something
48:49
that I, I really appreciate it about, you know, about Prairie
48:54
in particular. Well, thank you.
48:58
Well, thank you. You know, do you have any?
49:00
I guess as we as we sort of start wrapping up, you know, I
49:04
don't want to take too much of your time again, even as I said,
49:07
I you know, I could, you know, I can go through Betty Lou clip by
49:10
Betty Lou clip, but I think I think we're better off without
49:13
that. But do you have any, any like
49:19
any advice? I mean, I guess the industry has
49:22
changed so much since when you started, but like, do you have
49:24
any advice to to female puppeteers or anyone who might
49:28
be listening? I mean, again, it's so different
49:31
than it was in 1970 where you could just call up Jim's office
49:35
and get Jim himself. But I don't know, it just felt
49:38
like a good note to kind of end on.
49:42
Well, I know that there's like UConn, they supposedly have a
49:46
very good puppetry program. I'm sure there must be other
49:51
colleges that also. But also, you know, people
49:56
videotape themselves now for auditions and, you know, to see
50:01
what I've seen a few of them because I know they hire
50:05
puppeteers sometimes because of tapes that people have sent in.
50:09
And well, it used to be Kevin. I think Marty maybe does this
50:13
now, you know, looks at all of these tapes and sees who might
50:18
be a good person to hire if they're looking for somebody.
50:21
I think Ryan was found that way too.
50:25
Ryan Dillon. I would say, you know, today you
50:30
have everything going for you. You can buy your lights, you can
50:34
buy your camera, you can self tape.
50:37
You can write your own material and then get it out there, Put
50:42
it up on YouTube. Tell people that it's on
50:46
YouTube. Like I said, I know things have
50:49
changed. Generation, you know, not at
50:53
all, but I know there are ways just to put all that stuff up on
50:58
YouTube and, and get it seen. You know, they, they probably
51:04
know 10 times better than I do how to get going.
51:08
And everybody's journey is different.
51:11
Mine was completely fluky. Never wanted to be a puppeteer.
51:16
All of that. Is it just, I don't know, just
51:21
luck and craziness. And, you know, I really enjoyed
51:25
my time being a puppeteer with that group, I might add.
51:30
But then Jim died and then, you know, Frank left and it changed
51:36
a lot. You know, it always does if
51:38
somebody leaves and somebody else comes in.
51:41
I probably wouldn't even know half of the puppeteers now if I,
51:46
you know, went over to the studio.
51:49
But I know they have a good group.
51:52
So I, I hope the show goes on and on forever.
51:56
It must be really hard to know even how to how to write for the
52:00
show these days because things are so.
52:04
No, it's, it's, it's a struggle. And certainly, you know, I, I
52:07
hope, I hope to speak to some people who are currently on the
52:10
show as well. You know, I, I've, I've spoken
52:13
to them outside of this podcast, but I hope to speak to them for
52:16
this podcast as well. But any any other last thoughts
52:21
that you'd you'd like to leave leave the audience with?
52:27
Well, the only thing that I was going to say is that I have
52:31
always cheered for this show. I mean, I've always been not
52:36
only proud that I was on it, but I still think it serves a
52:40
fantastic it. It fills a need for a, a kid
52:47
show that isn't stupid and silly and Barney ish and all of that
52:52
stuff. And I'm really glad that Sherri
52:56
Weston has found a new home for it because it does teach
53:01
kindness and smarter, stronger, kinder, you know, that's those
53:08
are the, I think the three words that they used to the mission.
53:14
The mission statement is smarter, kinder, stronger.
53:18
I think that's it. I just, you know, I won an
53:21
award. You sure did.
53:22
I was going to congratulate you on that as well.
53:24
You won a lifetime achievement award at the last Emmys.
53:29
They looked around and said geez.
53:31
No, no, you deserved it. Thank you.
53:36
Thank you so much. It was very, very lovely and
53:39
unexpected. But anyway, we're living in a
53:43
very difficult time now where the leaders of our country are
53:49
the opposite of being kind, caring, thoughtful.
53:55
It's the opposite. So you We really cannot let the
54:00
country get sucked up in this morass.
54:06
Word for him Good I. Don't know.
54:10
I don't have to believe that one, so that's good.
54:13
No, sorry. But anyway, you know, that's as
54:17
long as it stays on the air. I have hope for humanity because
54:22
we are a very divided country right now.
54:24
So that's all. And I just hope it goes on and
54:28
on and on. And they find even better
54:30
writers and better directors and better puppeteers.
54:35
And, you know, they have to keep feeding the engine because the
54:40
older people will soon retire or, you know, just move on.
54:45
I don't know that that's it. I mean, I'm, I'm just a big
54:49
cheerleader for the show. I really appreciate you taking
54:52
the time to talk to me today. It, it really, like I said at
54:55
the beginning, it means a lot. I, I really, I really always,
55:00
always loved your work and it means a lot to talk to you about
55:03
this stuff. Yeah, sure.
55:07
Thanks. Well, good luck to you.
55:09
Whatever is your next step. Maybe you're at your last step.
55:13
Oh, I don't. Mean to say no, I'm I'm hoping
55:16
it goes a little longer than this.
55:19
I'm hoping it's not over at 34. No, no, no, no, I'm, I'm, I'm
55:26
delighted that you asked to speak with me and it's.
55:29
Been a real pleasure, thank you. And good luck.
55:34
I want to thank Fran so much for giving us an overview of the
55:38
changing role of female characters on Sesame Street.
55:42
I'm doing this super focused deep dive and sometimes it's
55:46
good to take the wide view of how this all fits together.
55:50
Which is good, because next week we're going back to specifics as
55:54
we continue digging into the first five seasons of Sesame
55:58
Street with a look at some lesser known female characters.
56:02
Lesser known than Betty Lou? Yeah, baby, get on my level.
56:08
And now from a cozy sun filled kitchen in Goat Corners, New
56:12
Hampshire, it's time for the answer lady.
56:16
And here she is, the lady with the answer to every problem.
56:20
Granny Fanny Nestle Rd. Oh, where?
56:24
Where is she? Where is she?
56:27
You said the answer lady was here.
56:29
Well, she is here, Granny. You are the answer, lady.
56:34
MercyMe heavenly pie. Oh, I forgot.
56:38
Are you silly? Join us next week for Granny
56:42
Fanny, Nestle Road and friends on a Prairie Dawn Companion.
56:48
I really am quite resolved. A Prairie Dawn Companion is a
56:55
production of toughpigs.com. It is written, produced, edited
57:00
and hosted by Becca Petunia, an executive produced by the Tough
57:04
Pigs Muppet Fan podcast executive producer Johannes.
57:09
Thanks to Scott Hanson, Shane Keating, Tony Whitaker and the
57:13
whole Muppet Wiki team for helping me with research.
57:17
The book St. Gang by Michael Davis was also
57:20
indispensable. Thanks to Katie Lynn Miller,
57:23
Michael Richardson, and Eli Lee for help with script revisions.
57:28
Follow Tough Pigs on social media.
57:31
You can support us on Patreon or by buying a T-shirt on our tea
57:35
public. Join the conversation on the
57:37
Tough Pigs discord. You can support a Prairie Dawn
57:41
companion and lots of other podcasts too by giving Muppet
57:46
fan podcasts with toughpigs.com five stars on your podcast
57:51
reviewing app of choice. No Cookie Monster.
58:08
I think it may be time for me to retire.