Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / CHRISTMAS MURDER-BY-FREEZER? Relatives Arrive For Holiday, Find DEAD WOMAN IN FREEZER

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CHRISTMAS MURDER-BY-FREEZER? Relatives Arrive For Holiday, Find DEAD WOMAN IN FREEZER · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: It seems like everybody went somewhere over Christmas, whether it
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: was home to Arkansas, out to California, to New England,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: down south.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Some people even go surfing in Nicaragua.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I heard that they go all over the place for
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Christmas holidays.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: But this is a trip I don't think the relatives
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: will ever forget because when they arrive there near San Diego, California,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: to visit, they find their female relative in the freezer.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: That's right, you heard me in the freezer. And if
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: you have any question to that, which I'm sure you
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: don't because you're all legal eagles, Yes she's dead.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I see, Grace. This is Crime Stories.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: and on serious xem one. Eleven dead in the freezer.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: You know how hard I had to look to find
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: a medical examiner that has a special expertise in people
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: that have been stored in the freezer or died in
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: the freezer. That's something you don't see every day, but
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: upon further research, I learned that it's more often than
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: we think. So how did this woman end up in
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: the fraser? Why has the medical examiner released a cause
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: of death. What do they think she crawled in there
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: and committed suicide by freezer?
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I don't think so.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: But again, it ain't the first time, and I doubt
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: it will be the last. But let's start at the beginning.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friends at crimeonline dot com.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: It was a family trip to visit relatives in the
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: Allied Garden section of San Diego. The out of towners
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: arrived just two days before Christmas. Surprisingly, the visitors aren't
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: greeted as expected by their loved one as they arrive
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: at the Zion Avenue home. As a travelers settle inside,
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: they check everywhere in the three bedroom, thirteen hundred square
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: foot home that's valued at nine hundred thousand dollars. No
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: one is home.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: What in the world This is not a cheap neighborhood
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: nine hundred thousand dollars. Now, this is near San Diego, California.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: You know, I've got an all star panel. But first,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I think I need to go to my longtime friend
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and colleague, my partner in crime. Quite often, although usually
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: were on different sides of the fence. Daniel Horowitz is
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: joining me. Renowned lawyer, legal commentator and you can find
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: him at Lawyer in Lafayette dot com. Now that's new,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Daniel Horowitz. What is Lawyers in Lafayette.
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: Well, it's where I live, and it's just my local community.
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: So I stopped being so national. I just want to
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: stay close to home. I'm getting old, Nancy.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: You preaching to the choir and you're not getting old.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, you can't say that because that would reflect on
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: my age.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: So let's go forward with this, Daniel Horowitz.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: It seems like everyone of the twins friends were going
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: somewhere for Christmas, either on Christmas or right after Christmas.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Now, the biggest scandal ever in.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: The Grace family was when my uncle showed up at
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: the Grace home place in Oldthorpe, Georgia, and instead of
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: eating Mama Grace's meal, and it's a meal, Daniel Horwitz,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: she would have fresh oysters and shrimp brought up from
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: the Panhandle. I don't mean brought up, I mean family
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: and relatives in the Panhandle would catch it, put it
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: on ice, and bring it up in the back of
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: the pickup truck.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Roast, beef, chicken, you name it, a.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Whole table of vegetables from their farm, and she would
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: make those cakes and I didn't understand how they made them,
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: but the cakes with like.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Eleven and twelve layerstackcake.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, Jackie should have a chocolate cake, should have a
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: pineapple cake, should have something with the white carrot cake,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: and my favorite caramel cake. She'd make all that. That said,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: my uncle Varney, who both of the grandparents always referred
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: to as Brown, showed up having stopped for a Hamburger before.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: He got to the big lunch.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Well, all h double l broke loose, and various family
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: members scratched off off.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: And left the party.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: That's the biggest scandal at Christmas time in our family. So,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Daniel Horowitz, this family travels from out of town to
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: visit nobody's home and they find the victim in the freezer.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Do you have any reason, in all your years of
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: trial experience, why a COEOD cause of death would not
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: be released as of right now?
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: Now this is a very peculiar case. First of all,
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: did they call the day before and say were coming over?
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Man, you do like the details, don't you? Okay, go ahead?
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Well they said come on over and when you
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: get here, if we're not around, go open the freezer.
• 5:44
  Speaker 5: And see what's there. It's peculiar to go to a house,
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: have no one there and go through the freezer. If
• 5:50
  Speaker 5: you go to the refrigerator, you sit around, you go
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: out to make finalds do something. But going through the
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: house and opening a freezer is bizarre.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you Daniel Horowitz. Fine. The bizarre part of
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: this is that they looked in the freezer.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, because I have a problem with the dead
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: body in the freezer. I would like to start right there,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: and I know where you're going. You are suggesting that
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: they kill the woman, But I'd like to point out
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I know where you're going. Don't even go what No,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: that's where you're going. Isn't that where you're going.
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: I'm going that they knew something was up. They didn't
• 6:22
  Speaker 5: just go there and go into a cold freezer for nothing.
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: It's peculiar, Nancy Daniel.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, and you're
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: normally you're doing what you always do. Your point every
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: which way, But where a jury should be focused.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: If they did it, why the hey would they call
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: nine one one? Why would they be on the scene.
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: They probably knew who did it. They covered it up.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, dear Lord in heaven, you know what. Let's start
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: with something called the facts. Joining me is Alexis Tereschuk,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Alexis thank you for
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: being with us. Let's just start at the beginning. Family
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: members visiting San Diego for the holidays are in shock
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: when they find who they identify as their female relatives
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: badly decomposed body. And that is significant, Alexis Tereschuk. Badly
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: decomposed body. And I'm going to go back to doctor
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Menna on that. Hold on, let me write myself a note.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: She was already badly decomposed. That is significant. While I
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: appreciate Daniel Horowitz's farfetch theories, which actually have worked many
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: many times on jury's I would like to stick with
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: the facts.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: We know they get there.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Her body is badly decomposed, and the homicide unit is
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: investigating due to the quote nature of the discovery.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: We know it's a female.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: We know the female that lived in the home wasn't
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: there to greet them at the door, and they have
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: identified her. And just before you say anything else, there
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: is another case where a victim was identified specifically by clothing.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, take a listen to our cut a from Dave Mack.
• 8:12
  Speaker 6: When police described a sweatshirt on the body they found
• 8:15
  Speaker 6: Gabby Betito's stepfather, Jim Schmidt, tells doctor Phil he knew
• 8:19
  Speaker 6: Gabby had passed away. Schmid said the description of the
• 8:22
  Speaker 6: piece of clothing matched Gabby's favorite sweatshirt that he knew
• 8:25
  Speaker 6: was hers. Schmid also said it was from a local store,
• 8:29
  Speaker 6: so we knew it was hers.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: You know, Alexis Terreschuk, I have a favorite windbreaker that
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I wear all the time, and I have a favorite
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: sweatshirt Fulton County Fire Department sweatshirt. That is something that
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: would those two items positively identify me. Now, let's start
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: with the facts. Alexis, tell me what happened from the beginning.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: So family comes from out of town to visit in
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: this town, Allied Garden. It's a suburb of Sandy.
• 9:00
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: San Diego is right on the water in southern California.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Can you slow down because everybody doesn't know everything you're
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: saying about San Diego.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, start again. I want to hear it and slowly.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: San Diego is really one of the most southern cities
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: in California, right on the border of Mexico. Allied Gardens
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: is a suburb, but a little bit east of the ocean.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: This house is worth nine hundred thousand dollars. Is a
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: very is a nice neighborhood. It is a family friendly neighborhood,
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: good schools or in this area. Neighbors have said nothing
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: like this has ever happened in the neighborhood. These family
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: members come in on December twenty third, two days before Christmas,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: from out of town. They cannot find anybody in the house.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: The family members that they were expecting to be in
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: the house were not there.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Question, isn't Allied Gardens very close to the college area
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: as it is called. That house is San Diego State University. Yeah,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: I see, that's very interesting to me that were near
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: a college town and not.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Far away at all.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: But back to what you were saying about Allied Gardens,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: go ahead, I'm sorry.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: So it's a nice family neighborhood, This is a nice street.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: Neighbors say that nothing has ever happened on the street.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: They don't They have no reason to think that anything
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: had happened in this house. But the family shows up.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: The family member that they were expecting to meet them
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: is not there, and so they search the house and
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: they find a body in the freezer. Then while we
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: would say it with their family member, the body is
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: so frozen that they the only thing they can really
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: tell from the frozen body is that it is a female.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, I want to follow up on what you're saying.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to the neighborhood and what
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: the significance of the population of Allied Gardens means to
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: this case. Maybe nothing, because it's so it's just really
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: a burrow or a neighborhood of San Diego. So is
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: population really wouldn't matter. Time stories with Nancy Greece to
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Sean Patrick Farley joining me out of Discovery Bay, California,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: former law enforcement now p I sadly specializing in criminal defense.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: But I want all that against you.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Owner of Seanpatrick Investigations dot Com.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Sean Patrick, thank you for being with us.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: The reason I'm curious about Allied Gardens is because there's
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: a big difference if a murder happens, say in Manhattan,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: as opposed to Lizella, Georgia near where I'm from, Macon, Georgia.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Because when you've got a very dense population with millions
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: of people. It's like finding a n len a haystack,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: as opposed to a much smaller population or a rural population,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: which really limits your suspect pool agree, disagree.
• 12:14
  Speaker 7: Certainly agree. I think the fact this occurred in a
• 12:16
  Speaker 7: dense population is a credit to law enforcement's investigation. I
• 12:21
  Speaker 7: think that provides potential evidence, whether it's through ring, doorbell cameras, technology,
• 12:28
  Speaker 7: you know, cell phone ringing, things of that nature. Certainly
• 12:32
  Speaker 7: with today's modern technology, that's going to assist law enforcement.
• 12:36
  Speaker 7: I would like to go back, you know, to your
• 12:38
  Speaker 7: initial statement though, and you said, you know, homicide. You know,
• 12:41
  Speaker 7: we're assuming this is a homicide, and I think everything
• 12:44
  Speaker 7: points to that. I think the fact that the victim
• 12:47
  Speaker 7: was found in a freezer is an initial point that
• 12:49
  Speaker 7: something is wrong, but we don't know how she got
• 12:52
  Speaker 7: in the freezer.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, Can I just stop you right there, Sean Patrick,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: please do Okay. We're not in defense land land, Okay.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I look at the facts as they are, not how
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: a defense attorney would want them to be. Like you
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: just heard Daniel Horowitz, He'll have this thing spun out
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: to where she took a nap and accidentally shut the lid.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: On herself, you know, that's where he's going.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Or the relatives who find her body and report it
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: they did it. I don't believe that either. But it
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: can't be anything but a homicide.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: It's not. There's only three ways to die.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: You've got natural, you've got accident, and you've got foul play.
• 13:33
  Speaker 7: Let's start with your initial because I agree with you.
• 13:35
  Speaker 7: Let's start with your initial, the natural, because I agree
• 13:37
  Speaker 7: with that, and I think that's a possibility. You know,
• 13:40
  Speaker 7: we all deal with death in a number of different ways.
• 13:42
  Speaker 7: The emotion that comes with death that we all handle
• 13:45
  Speaker 7: it differently, and it's a very tragic thing. It's a
• 13:48
  Speaker 7: very difficult thing. There's been many cases now the average person,
• 13:52
  Speaker 7: I think when somebody in our home are loved ones,
• 13:54
  Speaker 7: or we come across the deceased person, we call the authorities,
• 13:57
  Speaker 7: we call nine to one one. Unfortunately, that's not the
• 14:00
  Speaker 7: way everybody deals when they come across that sort of
• 14:03
  Speaker 7: a situation. We have situations where a family member will
• 14:06
  Speaker 7: die and a husband, a wife, a father, or son,
• 14:11
  Speaker 7: they just can't let go.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: You know, Sean Patrick, I've heard all kind of great
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: things about you. Thank you, ma'm you have a Stirling reputation.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: But again, let me direct to you to what is known,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: and that is there are three causes. There's three ways
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: to die, natural death like you kill over with a
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: heart attack, accident like you have a car crash, and
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: foul play. Okay, are you suggesting this was an accident?
• 14:40
  Speaker 7: Certainly not suggesting anything at this point, yes, no, yes, no.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Are you suggesting with an accident that she died in
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: the freezer?
• 14:46
  Speaker 7: Certainly not. I don't have.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Natya comin. She had to jump into it. It's not
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: an accident. You don't land in a chest freezer.
• 14:56
  Speaker 7: Certainly agree by accidently agree?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, natural, it's certainly not natural to die in a
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: phraser That leads me one choice, and that's foul play.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Agree or disagree, Sean Patrick Farlie, I.
• 15:11
  Speaker 7: Think with the options that you're presenting, with the words
• 15:14
  Speaker 7: that you're using to describe, but of course I agree
• 15:16
  Speaker 7: with you, but before we move on, because I think
• 15:19
  Speaker 7: ultimately my agreeance is with you, and I think my
• 15:22
  Speaker 7: information will support that. But I don't want to move
• 15:25
  Speaker 7: past the ailing family member who lost and just can't
• 15:29
  Speaker 7: report it and put their family member into this freezer
• 15:32
  Speaker 7: to store them there with hopes of maybe someday reporting it,
• 15:35
  Speaker 7: maybe someday just keeping their family member in that state. Now,
• 15:38
  Speaker 7: do I think that happened. No, As an investigator, do
• 15:42
  Speaker 7: I consider that absolutely, because at this stage we don't
• 15:46
  Speaker 7: have any information as the audience is the outside looking
• 15:49
  Speaker 7: into law enforcement's investigation. So as an investigator, I will
• 15:52
  Speaker 7: not discount anything at this point because that would be irresponsible.
• 15:56
  Speaker 7: I certainly don't want to go back and recreate work.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Well, never call you, Sean Patrick Farley irresponsible, guys. This
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: is what we're learning. Take a listen now to Dave
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: mac a crime online.
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: Around eleven forty five on Saturday, a nine to one
• 16:13
  Speaker 6: one call is made to the San Diego Police Department.
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: Out of town visitors find a badly decomposed body inside
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: a chess freezer and their loved one is missing. The
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: case is turned over to the homicide unit. The name
• 16:25
  Speaker 6: of the deceased has not been released.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: You know, I look this up on Zillo because I couldn't.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: They haven't released any crime scene photos yet. And I'm
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: looking at this place. It's nice four nine one four
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Zion Avenue, San Diego, and I notice how close And
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I think this is the norm out there, alexis treeschuk.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: The homes in this neighborhood are very close to each other.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: They're really pretty, but they are very.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Close to each other.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: My point, of course, is a point of criminal law
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: if there had been any sort of altered location.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: With the neighbors have heard it. That's what I'm looking at.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: But have you seen this.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: It's got a front porch with very well kept yard
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: with flight with potted plants all on the front ports
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: that require attention. And then there is a side patio,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: a sliding glass door, and what is striking me is
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: the attention that has been given to it. There's another
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: patio setting out there. Everything is pristine. It looks like
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: ready for a visit, a tree lined neighborhood, which is important.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: And there is a barrier in the front yard before
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: the street where a fence has been constructed to match
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: the home.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at that.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: And there's a school across the street. Like this is
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: a very safe neighborhood.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Three bedroom, one and a half bath, nine hundred thousand dollars.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Is that mean? It can mean a lot of things,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: But in my.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: World, doctor Angela Arnold joining me, renowned psychiatrist out of
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie. When you have nine hundred
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars put down on a family home and a
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: family neighborhood across from a school, a public school, that
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: means you're probably not a dope dealer or an arms dealer.
• 18:26
  Speaker 8: That's correct.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: You know who wants those homes across from the school.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: People that have children in the school, or that teach
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: at the school. That's the neighborhood we're talking about.
• 18:35
  Speaker 8: And also typically Nancy people will people will pay more
• 18:39
  Speaker 8: money to be close to a good school. So it
• 18:43
  Speaker 8: indicates that that's in all likelihood a good school, and
• 18:46
  Speaker 8: people are clamoring to be in that neighborhood and that
• 18:49
  Speaker 8: drives the price of the homes up.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Also, I can count in my head acquaintances of ours
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: that have moved to be closer to the school so
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: they don't have such long commute for their children every morning.
• 19:02
  Speaker 8: And they'll pay extra for that.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a big deal to me because it's
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: giving me an idea about who the killer could have been.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Of course, you can't negate Sean Patrick Farley's theory that.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: She was killed.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: She was murdered and then family members were so distraught
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: they didn't call the malan one immediately they froze her.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Doctor Othan Minna is joining me, very well known forensic
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: pathologist medical examiner in this jurisdiction there in California and
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: has had experience with frozen bodies. I'd like to point
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: out also that we know that she was badly decomposed
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: when the relatives got there for Christmas on December twenty three.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Doctor Minna, thank you so much for being with us.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: How can you, without knowing anything about the death, look
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: at a body if it's been thought out and know
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: that it's frozen, Doctor manaw.
• 20:05
  Speaker 9: Well, to know that somebody was frozen, it would be
• 20:09
  Speaker 9: very cold inside it, it warms up last inside, and
• 20:14
  Speaker 9: it'd also be very hard to cut when examining the
• 20:18
  Speaker 9: body during the autopsy.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Wait a minute, what if the body was thought out
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: at the time it was put on your autopsy table.
• 20:25
  Speaker 9: Then if it gets thought out, it actually will be composed,
• 20:28
  Speaker 9: continued decomposing at a different rate. For example, where it's
• 20:33
  Speaker 9: still frozen, it will maintain. But then the more fingers hands,
• 20:37
  Speaker 9: the head of the stuff that's more peripheral, more outside,
• 20:40
  Speaker 9: it'll start to saw out, so the medical examiner will
• 20:44
  Speaker 9: have to try to have the body saw more evenly.
• 20:47
  Speaker 9: So sometimes what is used is a fan to move
• 20:50
  Speaker 9: the air around the room. Put in room temperature and
• 20:53
  Speaker 9: use a fan to move the air so that one
• 20:55
  Speaker 9: part of the body doesn't saw faster.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: With your hearing, doctor open Mena, joining us from southern California,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Doctor Minna, I think I understood you to say that
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: the outermost parts of the body, such as the digits,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: the fingers, the toes you mentioned the head, begin to
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: thaw before the rest of the body. The core, which
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I assume is the torso, is that the last thing
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: to thaw.
• 21:22
  Speaker 9: Yes, inside the organs will even have ice on them.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute. First of all, organs will have
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: ice on the organs.
• 21:30
  Speaker 9: Right, so some of the water from the organs. Of course,
• 21:34
  Speaker 9: it depends on what point she was frozen, how decomposed,
• 21:38
  Speaker 9: how much she decomposed before getting frozen, that really determines.
• 21:42
  Speaker 9: But if the body still has water in it and
• 21:45
  Speaker 9: fluid it can form crystals and the parts that still
• 21:48
  Speaker 9: have some water.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: And then doctor Manna again, if the body is totally
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: thawed out at the time you get it on your
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: autopsy table. How you how do you determine it was
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: ever frozen? Can you look at the cells and figure
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: that out?
• 22:06
  Speaker 9: No, Once the person is decomposed, the tissue will all
• 22:10
  Speaker 9: be lose its kind of cellular structure. It is hard
• 22:14
  Speaker 9: to see the details on biosy, but one thing is
• 22:19
  Speaker 9: to see if it decomposed differently. For example, are some
• 22:22
  Speaker 9: parts of the body more decomposed than another. That tells
• 22:26
  Speaker 9: me that probably the person have to be thought out
• 22:29
  Speaker 9: and decomposed differently, unless for different parts of the body
• 22:33
  Speaker 9: were exposed to different temperatures for whatever reason.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: I'm very curious about how the body ended up in
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: the fraser, of course, but I find it very difficult
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: to believe that relatives would show up and then call
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: nine one one if they were responsible. Which leads me
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: to my question, doctor Othan Minna, as to why her
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: identity and her cood cause of death has not been released.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: What do you think, doctor Manna?
• 23:08
  Speaker 9: So why I would like to know if she was
• 23:10
  Speaker 9: actually identified already, depending on how decomposed she is, she
• 23:15
  Speaker 9: can be easily identified. Means she's still wearing her clothes
• 23:18
  Speaker 9: or still kind of looks like her. But if she's
• 23:21
  Speaker 9: far more advanced given that there's different levels of decomposition,
• 23:25
  Speaker 9: so they might actually not know who she is, or
• 23:28
  Speaker 9: they just need to confirm that identification either dental records
• 23:32
  Speaker 9: or is she still fingerprints are still available. That's another
• 23:35
  Speaker 9: common method.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Now, why is it that after a period of time
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: the maa medical examiner can no longer get fingerprints off
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: a dead body.
• 23:44
  Speaker 9: Is the fingers just dry out too much or the
• 23:50
  Speaker 9: skin sloughs offce so it might have it can come off.
• 23:53
  Speaker 9: And so sometimes some medical examiners have become very good
• 23:57
  Speaker 9: at what's called rehydrating the digits and then that the
• 24:02
  Speaker 9: fingerprint can actually come back or at least get a
• 24:05
  Speaker 9: partial print.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Can I talk to you about what you just said,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: doctor Manna?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: How do you and why do you rehydrate the digits
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the fingertips?
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Could you explain that?
• 24:15
  Speaker 9: Sure? So they can become very dry or desiccated, almost mammified.
• 24:21
  Speaker 9: So what happens is some people they've developed special formulas
• 24:25
  Speaker 9: to kind of rehydrate and plump up the tissue of
• 24:28
  Speaker 9: the skin again, and then that can be then rolled
• 24:32
  Speaker 9: on a piece of paper with some ink on it
• 24:34
  Speaker 9: and it'll actually look great, almost like the person was
• 24:37
  Speaker 9: still alive. So people are getting better and better at
• 24:42
  Speaker 9: using this method for rehydrating the digits.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: This is not the first time a body, a woman's
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: body has been found in the freezer, and medical examiners
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: face the same problems that you're hearing from.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Doctor men. Take a listen to our cut. Five is
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: the name Shannon Graves ring a Bell.
• 25:06
  Speaker 10: As police are looking for missing Shannon Graves. Ken Eshenball
• 25:09
  Speaker 10: caused nine to one one to report he and his
• 25:11
  Speaker 10: wife just found a woman's dismembered body wrapped in garbage
• 25:14
  Speaker 10: bags in their freezer. Except for the head it is missing.
• 25:18
  Speaker 10: Eschenbah tells police he is storing the freezer for a
• 25:21
  Speaker 10: friend who's power went out. The friend a Toro, Novoa
• 25:24
  Speaker 10: and more.
• 25:25
  Speaker 11: Before they even find her body in the freezer, police
• 25:28
  Speaker 11: began checking jail's, prisons, hospitals. They've run out of leeds,
• 25:33
  Speaker 11: and so they're looking any and everywhere just to see
• 25:36
  Speaker 11: if something has happened along the way. Then a couple
• 25:40
  Speaker 11: of months into the investigation, there's some shocking news coming
• 25:44
  Speaker 11: out of Campbell, Ohio. This is just a ten minute
• 25:47
  Speaker 11: drive from Youngstown. Word is that a couple living in
• 25:51
  Speaker 11: Campbell have made a horrific discovery in their own house,
• 25:56
  Speaker 11: in their basement, and they think a friend of theirs
• 25:59
  Speaker 11: has something to do with it.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: And of course I'm going to circle back to Daniel
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Horowitz in a moment, because he'll try to blame them.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Because they looked in the phraser.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: That's not a felony to look in the fraser, Daniel Horowitz.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: But the irony, as we compare the current case to
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: the case of Shannon Graves in Youngstown, Ohio, is that
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: it all happened around Christmas as well. This is what
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: our friend Ray Coputo tells me. Ray Coputo for anchor WDBA.
• 26:31
  Speaker 12: It wasn't uncommon, according to family members, for Shannon to
• 26:34
  Speaker 12: go long periods of time without contacting family members. So
• 26:37
  Speaker 12: when she first kind of people noticed that she wasn't around,
• 26:41
  Speaker 12: it wasn't like, you know somebody you see every day
• 26:43
  Speaker 12: where you immediately noticed that she was last seen on
• 26:46
  Speaker 12: Christmas Day in twenty sixteen, and then her sister said
• 26:49
  Speaker 12: she saw her a couple months later in mid February.
• 26:52
  Speaker 12: But again, it's kind of abnormal. You think when somebody
• 26:55
  Speaker 12: goes missing in a matter of days, people noticed, But
• 26:57
  Speaker 12: it wasn't like that with Shannon.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: So it all started around Christmas as in the current case.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Now take a listen to crime reporter John Limley and
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Our cut nine.
• 27:09
  Speaker 11: The beginning of the story goes back when Ken Eschenbah
• 27:13
  Speaker 11: says a friend introduced him to a man named Anthony
• 27:17
  Speaker 11: Gonzales Well. Ken says he became friends with Anthony because
• 27:22
  Speaker 11: Ken owns some audio equipment and Anthony was interested in
• 27:27
  Speaker 11: recording rap music. Fast forward to the middle of the July.
• 27:32
  Speaker 11: This is when Anthony asks Ken for a favor. Anthony
• 27:37
  Speaker 11: tells Ken that the electricity has gone out in his
• 27:40
  Speaker 11: home and he's concerned that some meat he was keeping
• 27:43
  Speaker 11: in a freezer was in danger of thogging. Going back,
• 27:46
  Speaker 11: so when Anthony asked Ken if he could bring the
• 27:49
  Speaker 11: freezer to his home in Campbell, Ken said, sure, no problem.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: That's how it all went down.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Has anybody out there ever had your electricity go off?
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And you want to say, what's senior freezer? Because it's
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: happened to me. Our next door neighbor asked if they
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: could store all their frozen stuff and our frazer. We
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: said sure, and they did because their electricity went out.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Now I'm sure Daniel Horowitz is coming up with all
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: sorts of conspiracy theories about how this went down, But
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: here's the answer.
• 28:19
  Speaker 11: In our cut eleven, she begins rummaging through the freezer
• 28:22
  Speaker 11: and comes upon a large garbage bag inside. This is
• 28:27
  Speaker 11: when Ken's wife says she immediately got a bad feeling.
• 28:31
  Speaker 11: She put everything back in, replaced the three screws, and
• 28:36
  Speaker 11: called her husband. And when Ken arrives at home, he
• 28:39
  Speaker 11: opens the freezer and found that whatever was inside the
• 28:43
  Speaker 11: bag was frozen solid.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, Daniel Horowitz, renowned defense attorney, joining us out of
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: the California jurisdiction. See, you can innocently look into a freezer.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: That does not make you a killer. Daniel Horowitz.
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: Fancy grace? What okay?
• 28:59
  Speaker 9: You like?
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: You like my labradoodle with a bone you won't let go.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna take that as a compliment.
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: It doesn't make sense that you're going to somebody's house
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: and you don't call them a few days before saying
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: were coming over. That body was badly decomposed. That person
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: was probably dead for what days, weeks, I don't know
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: how long it was in the freezer. But you don't
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: not speak to a person and then you show up
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: with their doorstep, So they had to have been out
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: of contact with this person for weeks and then just
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: show up and go to the freezer. It doesn't make sense.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: How do I know?
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's California, Alexis Tereschuk in this area, especially
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: with the Santa Anna wins. We don't know what the
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: temperature was leading up to Christmas. For all I know,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: there were warm days, there were definitely wet days. We
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: don't know how the decomposition was aided and embedded by
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: the weather where she had been before she was put
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: into the freezer. And I know other thing, which I'll
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: go back to you on Doctor Angela Arnold. We showed
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: up at a lot of people's house unannounced over Christmas
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: because we deliver eggnog and homemade treats and cakes and
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: cookies that we make to people all over our neighborhood
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: and we don't call and make an appointment.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: Well, I would have liked to have gotten some of
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: that eggnog.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: First of all, sorry, I'm sure you on an exotic vacation,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: but go ahead, continue continue, But.
• 30:25
  Speaker 8: Honestly, Nancy, did you go in the people's house and
• 30:29
  Speaker 8: start rummaging around their breathing.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Because they answered the door and they were not my relative.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: But if I had gone to my sister's home and
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: she didn't come to the door on a day that
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I knew she was going to be there, and she
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: didn't come to the door for hours and hours and hours,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: you would.
• 30:44
  Speaker 12: Have gone in rubs and rummaged through her freezer.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: No, I would have tried to call her.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And if I saw her car park there and I
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: couldn't account for where she was, you don't right, I
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: would go in and look for my sister, and with
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: my background, actually yes, I would look in the freezer.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: But to you, Alexis Terschuk, what about it?
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it was very sunny and warm
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: on Christmas here in California, and San Diego is even
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: warmer than Los Angeles. It was we had beautiful weather.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: But the thing is nobody had reported anyone missing ahead
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: of time, so it wasn't like this person was missing
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: for days and the police and no one called for
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: a welfare check to the house. Nobody raised any alarm
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: before this family came there, So if they were you
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: can think that they were arriving expecting someone to be there,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: that they hadn't been worried before.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I'm wondering if it's a woman that lives alone. I'm
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: wondering if that relative lives alone. I wonder if it's
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: somebody's auntie or granny where you just kind of walk in,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: but we don't haven't been given any of that information.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace to you saw Patrick Frawley.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Would that make the pieces fit together.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Better for you if it was a woman that lived alone,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: that was a relative of this family.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: That came to visit, like an aunt or a grandma.
• 32:21
  Speaker 7: I sture would like to have some pieces of a
• 32:23
  Speaker 7: puzzle to start putting together, something to start a foundation
• 32:27
  Speaker 7: for this to make sense, because I think we all
• 32:30
  Speaker 7: agree this is not making sense, and law enforcement is
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: being very slow in their ability to release information. Now
• 32:37
  Speaker 7: we're at the holidays, so law enforcement their resources are
• 32:40
  Speaker 7: going to be minimal. Here in California, we already have
• 32:44
  Speaker 7: an issue with law enforcement being understaffed at this time.
• 32:48
  Speaker 7: It's a holiday season, so they'll patrol maybe up and
• 32:51
  Speaker 7: running the outside resources meaning support staff, administrative detectives, things
• 32:57
  Speaker 7: like that. They may have been on holiday leaves, vacation
• 33:00
  Speaker 7: and things of that nature. So that's going to push
• 33:02
  Speaker 7: back a little bit of information being released to the public.
• 33:05
  Speaker 7: But I certainly to your point, I would like some
• 33:09
  Speaker 7: pieces to begin with. I think right now they're just
• 33:11
  Speaker 7: so scattered that any comment or any strategic lead that
• 33:17
  Speaker 7: we believe we have is just based off of frivolous
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: hope and the past that seems that this has happened.
• 33:23
  Speaker 7: But right now, from an investigative standpoint, a number of
• 33:26
  Speaker 7: things can happen. And I'd like to finish with you.
• 33:29
  Speaker 7: You seem to throw great parties. I would love to
• 33:32
  Speaker 7: come to one of your parties. I'm a social person.
• 33:34
  Speaker 7: I would show up if it was the holidays with
• 33:36
  Speaker 7: something in hand. I would have a nice pie. I
• 33:39
  Speaker 7: would have some sort of dessert. I would have something
• 33:41
  Speaker 7: to bring to the party at a friend's house, especially
• 33:44
  Speaker 7: a family member's house. So if i walk into the
• 33:47
  Speaker 7: home and they're not there, and I'm looking around and
• 33:50
  Speaker 7: I'm looking for Aunt Joan or uncle Bill and he's
• 33:53
  Speaker 7: not around, and I keep looking, I keep looking, nobody
• 33:55
  Speaker 7: can find them. At some point, what am I going
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: to do with the frozen pieot to my hand. I'm
• 34:00
  Speaker 7: going to continue to just walk around the home with
• 34:03
  Speaker 7: it At some point, I'll secure that food as I
• 34:05
  Speaker 7: continue to look for my aunt or my uncle or
• 34:08
  Speaker 7: my friend who's invited me over. Now, where am I
• 34:10
  Speaker 7: going to secure that frozen pine?
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: Well?
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Another thing is if they had been there and they're waiting,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: and they're waiting, and they're waiting, they may have looked
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: in there for something to eat.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Why did they go in there? I don't know, and
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I don't care.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: The only reason I would care is under Daniel Horowitz says,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: I say, far fetch theory. I want to make sure
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: that they're not the ones that put her in there.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Do I think that they did know? Because they called
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: nine to one one over? Now, another thing really jumped
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: out at me. In that last case of Shannon Graves,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: doctor Oath and Minna joining Us doctor Minna, Shannon had
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: been dismembered and her torso was frozen solid.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: You said something earlier about how.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: The body cells begin to degenerate because of the free
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Would that make it difficult to get a DNA match?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Because certainly within that home they're going to find the
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: woman's DNA from a hair brush or a comb or
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: a toothbrush. But can you get DNA from a frozen body.
• 35:15
  Speaker 9: Yes, actually from bone you can use the longbows are ideal,
• 35:20
  Speaker 9: such as the femur or the humors. But yet you
• 35:22
  Speaker 9: can use some of the DNA storymaining in the bone,
• 35:25
  Speaker 9: and actually freezing would probably help help preserve it as
• 35:32
  Speaker 9: opposed to somebody out in the sun in the desert
• 35:34
  Speaker 9: or something, so that DNA might actually have been helped
• 35:38
  Speaker 9: by freezing. So that's probably the method they would use,
• 35:41
  Speaker 9: unless there's still any blood and then the blood can
• 35:44
  Speaker 9: have some.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Much or Othen Menna joining US forensic pathologists who has
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: experience in frozen body cases. Doctor Manna, every time you
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: say something, I have a million new questions because everything
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: you say is incredibly interesting to me. Now I just
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: learned that the best bones we got to remember this
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Jackie from which you get DNA would be the long bones,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: such as the leg bone. You mentioned two of them,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: one being the female. I don't remember the other one.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: But why is that? Is there more DNA?
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: And do you get it from essentially the bone marrow,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: the living tissue inside of the bone.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Where do you get the DNA from a bone?
• 36:27
  Speaker 9: Actually from the outer part that's called the cortex, so
• 36:30
  Speaker 9: the really hard part on the outside of the bones
• 36:34
  Speaker 9: is what would be useful? Kind of it would get ground?
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Interesting? I would have thought it would have been the
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: inside of the bone. But you're saying the outer covering
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: of the bone the cortex. Correct, And why a long bone,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Why is that preferred because there's more of it, there's
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: more cortex exactly?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Okay? Interesting.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: So even if all we had is say her torso,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: as in the Shannon Graves case, you could still get
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: DNA from a bound even if frozen.
• 37:01
  Speaker 9: Yes, And again it depends on what point the person
• 37:04
  Speaker 9: was frozen. So some people after dying, for whatever reason,
• 37:08
  Speaker 9: they get frozen. So if it happens right after death,
• 37:11
  Speaker 9: the better preserve the tissue will be. If the person
• 37:14
  Speaker 9: will really badly decomposed and then frozen for concealment, for example,
• 37:19
  Speaker 9: then the less likely the tissue will be helpful.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: People look in freezers for all sorts of reasons. What
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: about Melissa Mooney? Take a listen to our cut twenty
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: from Crime Online.
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: May Lisa Mooney moves into anough scale apartment in Los Angeles.
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: When she doesn't return to pick up some items from
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: her previous residence, her mother gets worried, realizing nobody in
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: the family has seen mey Lisa Mooney for several days.
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: Her mother calls police for a welfare check. Police notice
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: blood pooling under the refrigerator in the new apartment and
• 37:51
  Speaker 6: the body of the thirty one year old model is inside.
• 37:54
  Speaker 6: She's been bound with electrical cords and clothing, a gag
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: made from clothing with stuffed in her mouth, and other
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: items recovering her head. Blood force injuries as well as lacerations, abrasions,
• 38:05
  Speaker 6: and contusions were found on her face, head, backing up
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: her left arm, according to the coroner's report. The report
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: found the injuries by themselves were not severe enough to
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: have caused her death on their own, but suggest she
• 38:16
  Speaker 6: was likely involved in a violent physical altercation. Her cause
• 38:19
  Speaker 6: of death was determined homicidal violence, and the report suggests
• 38:23
  Speaker 6: she may have been asphyxiated, although no direct marks from
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: strangulation were observed.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: We picked Melissa's case for a very important reason. The
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: reason is number one, people looked into the freezer because
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: they saw blood pooling outside the freezer. So to you,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Daniel Horowitz, high profile lawyer joining us out of California
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: this jurisdiction. There any number of reasons that the relatives
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: may have looked in the freezer.
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: How did they even get in the house? Did they
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: have a key? Was the door open?
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, dear lord, now you're on the front door. First
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: I give you an answer about the freezer, and now.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: You want to know why they came through the door.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: It never ends with you, does it.
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: You haven't answered the key question. They show up unannounced,
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: They show up not having spoken to the person for weeks.
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: The doors open, They just walk in and they go, Oh,
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: there's a nice freezer. Let's open it up and see
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: if she's there. It's ridiculous.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: How do I know there wasn't blood pooling outside the freezer?
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know why they looked in the freezer. Why
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: did the Melissa's mother want to look in the freezer?
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Why did the neighbor who was storing a freezer that
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: was padlot decide to look in the freezer.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: She said she was looking for meat to make spaghetti.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Do I believe that? Hgl noo.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: She looked in the freezer because she thought something weird
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: was going on, and she checked in the freezer.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a natural.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Logical course of thinking, but it's happening We are finding
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: bodies in freezers, just like this woman's body was found
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: in the freezer. And she's not the only one. Take
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: a listener. Cut twenty one regarding.
• 40:08
  Speaker 6: In Mond, Brandon Sanders is arrested and charged in the murder,
• 40:11
  Speaker 6: robbery and burglary of a sixty nine year old Bosnian
• 40:14
  Speaker 6: war refugee, Russim Katonic. While Sanders is in court on
• 40:18
  Speaker 6: that murder charge, police service search foreign at his apartment
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: and find the body of a young woman stuffed in
• 40:24
  Speaker 6: his freezer. The family of eighteen year old emm Al
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: Sarah tell ABC seven News she is beaten to death.
• 40:32
  Speaker 6: Sanders faces murder charges in the killing of Russim Katonic,
• 40:35
  Speaker 6: but police have not said when or if they will
• 40:38
  Speaker 6: charge him with the death of a mom Al Sarrah.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: And that's not the only one. What about Brian Heimmert.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Listen to twenty two.
• 40:45
  Speaker 6: In Florida, the Lee County Sheriff's Office tells Fox four
• 40:48
  Speaker 6: they have been able to end one investigation as they
• 40:51
  Speaker 6: begin a new one. The case that has solved the
• 40:54
  Speaker 6: missing person case involving a sixty year old man, Brian Hemmert.
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: His body has been found stuffed in her freezer in
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: his house. Investigators have yet to determine the cause of death,
• 41:03
  Speaker 6: but they have taken Himmert's thirty one year old son,
• 41:06
  Speaker 6: Jake Heimmert, into custody and charged him with second degree murder,
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: credit card fraud, and grand theft. Police were called to
• 41:13
  Speaker 6: Brian Hemmert's house about a missing person's report and took
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: Jake Heimbert into custody on an unrelated out of state warrant.
• 41:19
  Speaker 6: Ten days after placing Jake Hemmert in jail on the warrant,
• 41:22
  Speaker 6: Brian Hemmert's body was found in a freezer with the
• 41:25
  Speaker 6: defect in the home. The two men.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Shared, okay, and that's not all.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: What about not just a body? But to make it
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: even more difficult to solve, a hand. Take a listen
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: to our friends at crimeonline dot com.
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: A family moves out of an Alabama rental property and
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: the owner decided to sell. The new owners are cleaning
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: up around the property when they find a freezer in
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: the backyard that is too heavy to load on a trailer.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: They decided to clean it out before hauling it away.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: When they open the freezer, the new owners see what
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: looks like a human hand and immediately call nine one.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: And following up on Daniel Horowitz's theory that these relatives
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: killed her, or.
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: At least Nancy, they knew at least they knew who
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: did it. They knew something was wrong. Look, Nancy, it's
• 42:11
  Speaker 5: a big chest, freezer and a small residence. What's it
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: doing there? What was in it before? It doesn't make
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: sense if there's just a freezer sitting there. If somebody
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: took the things out of that freezer and put a
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: body in, where are the things that were taken out?
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: You go from why they look into the freezer to
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: why they went in the front door, to what did
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: they do with the leftovers? Okay, guys, earlier and he's
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: a renowned defense attorney, and he wins cases because of
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: crazy theories just like this one, and that he's coming
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: up with right now. But notice he's always got a
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: backup argument. But listen to this. Earlier he mentioned that
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: these poor relatives who show up at Christmas and find
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: the dead body, that they killed her and for sentimental
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: reasons put her in the freezer and then call nine
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: one one.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Cut nineteen does the name Eva Bratcher ring a bell.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: Thirty eight year old Sabrina Watson is worried about her grandmother.
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: It's been a long time since the two have talked.
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: She calls police and asks for a well being check
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: on Regina Michowski. At the home, police find Watson's mother,
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: Eva Bratcher. She gives the police an ID with Bratcher's
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: picture and Regina Michowski's name. Police investigate further and found
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: the body of Michowski in a freezer.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: The body had to be thought.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: Out to determine the cause of death. Eva Bratcher is
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: now accused of keeping her mother's dead body in the
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: freezer for two years and stealing her identity.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: You know, doctor Angel Arnold, we have discussed on several
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: occasions Long Island serial killer, who I believe to be
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Rex Huerman, and how every day he would drive that
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: route to work, to catch the train or to drive
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: into Manhattan, and he would pass his victims lined up
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: along Gilgo.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Beach like trophies. How do you go buy a.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Freezer and park your car in front of it and
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: pass it for all in a store your leftover spaghetti
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: and I don't know when you know there is a
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: dead body in it?
• 44:11
  Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, it sounds like some people have a have
• 44:16
  Speaker 8: a reason for that, and the reason is like, in
• 44:20
  Speaker 8: this last case that you just discussed, to steal someone's identity, Nancy,
• 44:24
  Speaker 8: If you steal someone's identity, then that means you could
• 44:27
  Speaker 8: be getting a check from that person. You could you
• 44:31
  Speaker 8: could possibly making some financial gain from stealing someone's identity.
• 44:36
  Speaker 8: So I imagine once this checks start coming in and the
• 44:40
  Speaker 8: person is frozen down in the bottom of the freezer,
• 44:43
  Speaker 8: you just lose your attachment with them, and the and
• 44:46
  Speaker 8: the monetary game that you're getting from that becomes much
• 44:49
  Speaker 8: more important than worrying about if there's a dead body
• 44:52
  Speaker 8: in your freezer.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: So somehow, going from the psychological issue of how you
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: compartmentalize the dead body in the frazer and go about
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: your business, you have somehow taken us into the territory
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: of a pecuniary or monetary game motive in a murder. Yes, Okay,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: alexis Trestchuck. Where does the case stand right now?
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: The police have yet to release the identity of the
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: woman whose body was found, and the family has not
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: spoken out about their missing relatives, so we are waiting
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: for the results from the medical Examiner Nancy jump In,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: We've just got worried that the body has been identified
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: as Mary Margaret Haxby Jones.
• 45:30
  Speaker 13: And at the time that her body was found, if
• 45:33
  Speaker 13: she had been living, she would have been eighty one
• 45:35
  Speaker 13: years old. It's believed she lived at the home at
• 45:38
  Speaker 13: some point. We still don't know how or when Haxby
• 45:42
  Speaker 13: Jones died, but she may have been missing or dead
• 45:45
  Speaker 13: for up to nine years. SDPD says no missing person
• 45:49
  Speaker 13: report was ever filed for her. Now, the out of
• 45:52
  Speaker 13: town visitors were not related to Haxby Jones. Instead, they're
• 45:56
  Speaker 13: related to someone currently living at the residents. The medical
• 46:00
  Speaker 13: Examiner's office is still working to determine the cause of death,
• 46:03
  Speaker 13: and again, the body did not have any obvious traumatic injuries. However,
• 46:08
  Speaker 13: the police are still investigating this as a suspicious death.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: body in the freezer, please dial eight eight eight five
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: eight zero eight four seven seven toll free eight eight
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: eight five eight zero eight four seven seven.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Goodbye.
• 46:33
  Speaker 9: F