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Turtles all the way down: The vaccine safety debate · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:26
  Well, hello everyone and welcome to the 10 Penny Files.
• 0:29
  I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:30
  Sherry Tenpenny.
• 0:31
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• 2:03
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• 2:07
  Now, let's get started.
• 2:08
  Today's conversation is with Zoe O'Toole, a writer and editor currently working for children's self-defense and Mary Holland, attorney and president of children's self-defense about their book, Turtles All the Way Down, Vaccine Science and Myth, which will resolve your vaccine concerns once and for all.
• 2:28
  And before we dig into this, I just want to say to the audience, this is my favorite vaccine book for new people who are wanting to explore vaccines.
• 2:36
  And there's so much out there now.
• 2:38
  When I started doing this back in the early early 2000s, there was nothing.
• 2:43
  And now there are dozens and dozens of books.
• 2:46
  It can be almost overwhelming.
• 2:47
  There's also videos and courses and all these things.
• 2:50
  This is the book that you must have in your library.
• 2:54
  So Mary and Zoe, thank you so much for joining me here today.
• 2:58
  It's a pleasure to talk with you about this book.
• 3:00
  Pleasure to be here.
• 3:02
  Yep.
• 3:05
  What you know, the only thing, you know, then I get this question all the time.
• 3:09
  So I want to hear your explanation for this.
• 3:11
  People say, why this title?
• 3:14
  It's kind of weird and it doesn't say anything about vaccines.
• 3:17
  And it has symbology to it in terms of vaccine science and health policy.
• 3:23
  So why don't you guys explain why this book is titled Turtles All the Way Down?
• 3:29
  It is a weird title.
• 3:30
  Zoe, why don't you explain it?
• 3:32
  Okay.
• 3:33
  So uh there's this apocryphal story in science circles of a um scientist giving a lecture.
• 3:44
  And it's probably Bertrand Russell that that most people think it was.
• 3:49
  And he's talking about how the universe began and cosmology and after the lecture, he a little old woman, because it's always a little old woman, comes up to him and says, lovely lecture, but it's wrong.
• 4:06
  You're all wrong.
• 4:07
  And he says, Well, what what do you think about the the origins of the universe?
• 4:12
  And she says the the universe is sitting on the back of a giant turtle.
• 4:17
  And he looks at her like you just did and said, What is the turtle on uh on top of?
• 4:24
  And she says, another turtle.
• 4:26
  And then he says, What about that turtle?
• 4:29
  It's turtles all the way down.
• 4:32
  So in the scientific community, they tend to use this story as a way of dismissing people like us, the moms who aren't working on science on a daily basis.
• 4:46
  But what the book does is it turns that around.
• 4:51
  It says, Guess what?
• 4:53
  The science that you think they're building this whole vaccine safety thing on is turtles all the way down.
• 5:00
  There's really nothing there.
• 5:02
  Or it is they used to say in IT, it's vaporware.
• 5:06
  It's just not there.
• 5:07
  And the book actually exposes that and says essentially that it is the emotional parents who are actually getting this right.
• 5:18
  You know, that's so true.
• 5:19
  Um, you know, I read uh I had Aaron Seary on our show, and I read his book, Vaccines Amen.
• 5:26
  And you know, well, a good portion of the beginning of that book is about his interviews that he did, his eight-hour interview with Stan Plotkin.
• 5:34
  And I I remember back when that came out, and I actually watched the interview, but seeing it in print just absolutely demonstrated demonstrates how the entire vaccine industry is just vaporware.
• 5:46
  It's just on nothing.
• 5:48
  It's nothing.
• 5:49
  And just so there's just nothing there.
• 5:51
  Except money, except a lot of money and a lot of injury and a lot of lies.
• 5:56
  But I think Aaron's title, Vaccines Amen and Turtles All the Way Down and Your Zero Accountability, they all go to this fundamental point.
• 6:04
  There's nothing that this is built on.
• 6:07
  And once we really get that through to parents around the world, this is over.
• 6:12
  The paradigm is over, and we're very close, Sherry.
• 6:15
  It's been decades in the making, but we are so close to really getting a majority of parents, at least in this country to recognize this is a scam.
• 6:25
  It's harming our kids.
• 6:27
  The harms vastly outweigh the benefits, and there's no reason to do this.
• 6:32
  Um, you know, and I think we've just moved, we've moved quite a distance in the last couple of years, Sherry.
• 6:38
  I I believe.
• 6:40
  Well, I think so too.
• 6:41
  I, you know, I think that the whole scam that happened with COVID um just woke everybody's eyes up.
• 6:47
  And I think it backfired on the industry.
• 6:50
  I agree.
• 6:50
  That they they overplayed their hand, and then people saw all the carnage that happened from the COVID jabs.
• 6:58
  They said, well, wait a minute.
• 6:59
  I had a baby during COVID and didn't go to the doctor and didn't get any vaccines, and they're alive and they're healthy.
• 7:07
  Um, maybe ought to look into that too.
• 7:10
  And I believe that that's really happening.
• 7:12
  What do you guys think about that?
• 7:14
  I say I remember your saying, Sherry, years ago, like, why didn't they just let the small, you know, percentage of people who wanted religious exemptions alone.
• 7:25
  Had they just let those people alone, 2%, 3%, they would have been fine.
• 7:30
  But no, they wanted the whole market, not just of children, not just you know, pregnant moms, but they wanted it from pregnancy to death, right?
• 7:38
  And it was that overreach that just now, thankfully is really is really really back, um, you know, backfiring on them.
• 7:46
  And you know, the whole craziness, that the non-recognition of religious rights, religious exemptions, the sort of nullification of all medical exemptions is like people are starting, and then the whole COVID scam, right?
• 7:58
  The idea that these products were safe and effective when everybody almost, except for New York City, where I was yesterday.
• 8:04
  You know, almost everybody recognizes that that was a total scam.
• 8:08
  I think the jig is almost up, but I totally agree that without COVID, I don't think we would be where we are.
• 8:15
  And with the silly things that the AAP is doing and ACOG is doing.
• 8:20
  Oh my gosh.
• 8:20
  The audience, the American AAP is the American Academy of Pediatrics, and ACOG is the uh College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, you know, suing over we have to have the right to vaccinate all you people because we can't have you healthy.
• 8:35
  But but Sherry, as you may know, we also have a lawsuit against the American Academy of Pediatrics for racketeering.
• 8:42
  We believe they absolutely know, based on the institute of medicine that what they've been saying for over a decade is a lie, that the whole schedule is safe and effective, and you can give kids who are mildly ill shots and you can have an unlimited number at once.
• 8:57
  We are suing them for their lie, and uh they're in court right now, uh, you know, as defendants.
• 9:05
  They're plaintiffs against HHS, but they're bad actors.
• 9:08
  They they know the truth, and they still pursue profits.
• 9:13
  So is the case proceeding?
• 9:15
  Yeah, oh, absolutely.
• 9:16
  Our case is proceeding.
• 9:18
  They got an extension, but by June, they will have likely moved to dismiss our case.
• 9:23
  That would be what any kind of normal defendant would do.
• 9:26
  But then uh, I believe we will get past that motion to dismiss and we'll get into discovery, Sherry.
• 9:32
  And that's when it's going to be really interesting because of course they are essentially, in our view, a front organization for the pharmaceutical industry.
• 9:41
  And there's, of course, you know, emails back and forth between the AAP and the pharmaceutical industry that produces the vaccines that are the basis of the pediatric uh model, the the business model.
• 9:55
  We seem to have lost Joey.
• 9:56
  I'm so sorry.
• 9:57
  She, I hope we'll come back.
• 9:59
  I keep watching.
• 10:00
  Down here for her to you know come back I haven't seen her hop back in yet, but hopefully she will.
• 10:05
  Maybe she thing that came up.
• 10:07
  But that's really really good because they are a front organization, and I think people are understanding that.
• 10:12
  And when they're seeing these lawsuits, like we have a lawsuit, you know, the disinformation doesn't know absolutely critical lawsuit.
• 10:19
  And they had this whole thing about the motion to dismiss, and we are and we are, you know, or to move our case, which was filed in Florida to move it to California, the Ninth Circuit, and you know, the so that all the tech company out there, and they're trying, and we're hoping to get to discovery too, because it would be interesting.
• 10:37
  Well, and we have a similar case uh called um it's CHD versus the well, it's CHD and many other organizations against what they called the trusted news organization, true trusted news initiative TNI, and it's in DC, and it's about and it's an antitrust action that all of this the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall, the Wall Street Journal, actually New York Times dropped out, but the Associated Press, BBC, they all said, you know, people like Sherry Tenpetty and CHD and so many others, they're stealing our lunch, right?
• 11:08
  We are the trusted news initiative, and we all should squelch these online news purveyors.
• 11:14
  And when one of us says that it's misinformation information or disinformation, we should all pile on.
• 11:20
  And uh that case is going forward.
• 11:22
  It's like three years old now, Sherry.
• 11:23
  The the wheels of justice turn slowly.
• 11:26
  But uh no, it's critical.
• 11:27
  And as you know, there was just some really important wins for free medical for free speech in the last this week, actually.
• 11:35
  So Missouri v.
• 11:36
  Biden um and CHD versus CHD versus Trump originally, Kennedy versus Biden just either got a consent decree or um a settlement.
• 11:45
  And then yesterday, the Supreme Court came down in this case, Childs versus Salazar.
• 11:50
  Um, and eight to one, they favored free speech around a therapist who is doing a certain type of you know, LGBTQ therapy, but they came down squarely eight to one on the side of free speech.
• 12:06
  So it's so important that we seem to see the pendulum swinging back against this, you know, censorship propaganda regime that was so powerful during COVID.
• 12:16
  That is so encouraging because our you know, our court system is not what it should be.
• 12:22
  It's not independent.
• 12:23
  We've got this, you know, rogue judge out there saying we can't change the vaccine schedule.
• 12:28
  And it seems as though the the government isn't fighting back against let me speak on that.
• 12:34
  We tried in in the decision AAP versus Kennedy.
• 12:39
  Um, we and we sought to intervene as children's self-defense because the AAP are representing doctors and HHS is representing the government and like who is representing the kids.
• 12:50
  This is about the kids.
• 12:51
  This isn't about the government or doctors.
• 12:53
  So we sought to intervene, and the judge denied us the right to intervene, but he asked us to file a friend of the court brief, which we did.
• 13:01
  And then he mentioned, and we put in a thousand pages, Sherry.
• 13:05
  He mentions it in one footnote.
• 13:07
  So we have already, well, the government has not yet, we have already not only appealed the denial of our ability to intervene to the First Circuit Court of Appeals, but we've appealed that decision itself because we believe that Judge Murphy, who's you know, a green new federal judge, completely got it wrong, completely got it wrong, um, saying that you know, the ASIP panel is invalid, and all of the recommendations that Kennedy has made are invalid because they were either arbitrary or capricious, or it was ASIP was invalidly constructed.
• 13:43
  I mean, basically what he said is nothing can be done about vaccines in the whole federal government without his permission.
• 13:51
  And it's like Sherry, even if you and I, you know, were zealous pro-vaxxers.
• 13:56
  If we were Stanley Plotkin and we had a legitimate worry about Ebola tomorrow, you would want the CDC and the HHS secretary to be able to take actions and not have to go to a totally uneducated federal judge in Boston.
• 14:12
  So I don't think that decision is going to stand, Sherry.
• 14:15
  I really don't.
• 14:15
  And I do think that HHS and Kennedy are gonna appeal that decision.
• 14:19
  But it does show us that, you know, there's something really wrong with the judiciary.
• 14:25
  And and candidly, Sherry, I'm gonna be honest with you.
• 14:27
  The HHS, the DOJ lawyer, the Department of Justice lawyer did a really poor job in representing um health and human services and what Kennedy has done.
• 14:37
  He basically argued that everything Kennedy did was not reviewable by a court, and so you know, you can't say that.
• 14:45
  Of course, it's reviewable.
• 14:47
  That's the point of a court being able to review what the government does on some level, but it's very limited.
• 14:53
  And I think that really was a big part of the problem in that case.
• 14:58
  Um, it was a big part of the problem that there really was not an adequate representation of HHS's interests.
• 15:05
  You know, I I'm I'm blanking on the name right now, the name of the book.
• 15:09
  But I did an interview with Senator Dave Howard.
• 15:11
  He was a Minnesota representative and then a Minnesota senator for 20 like 14 years, and they wrote this, and he with another attorney wrote this book uh that said, you know, the the the judges, you know, making these uh decisions, these rogue judges that are not just referees, which is what a judge is supposed to be.
• 15:34
  Did you follow the law and are you right and you right and you know, who's got the best argument, but they're coming up with their own arguments, which is rogue judges are not do.
• 15:44
  They shouldn't exist.
• 15:45
  And and this judge, Murphy, Brian Murphy in Boston has only been on the bench about 18 months.
• 15:51
  Uh it was a very um narrow decision.
• 15:55
  He won basically on a party line vote of the Senate, um, very small margin.
• 16:00
  And he's already been shot down by the Supreme Court twice uh for his immigration-related decisions, and and basically he wasn't following the Supreme Court, and they really shut him down.
• 16:12
  So he's already proven himself, you know, not only to not be adequately following the law, but to be defiant of the Supreme Court.
• 16:21
  So I do think this is going to be reversed at the first circuit, or if not the first circuit, I think it will go on an expedited basis to the Supreme Court.
• 16:30
  But we have a big problem that children's health is being run by pharma, basically in half the country.
• 16:38
  And you know, I know we're off the book for a moment, but basically all the blue states are now jumping on this bandwagon that they don't want the CDC regulating children's health, they want the American Academy of Pediatrics regulating it.
• 16:52
  And as we said, it's turtles all the way down.
• 16:54
  AAP and Pharma, when it comes to vaccines, are turtles all the way down, and turtles all the way down kind of explains why that is.
• 17:03
  Why how is it that it's vaporware?
• 17:06
  How is it that there's zero accountability?
• 17:08
  How is it that there's no science behind this?
• 17:10
  And the book kind of goes through that.
• 17:12
  But that's AAP is turtles all the way down, you know, magnify.
• 17:18
  You know, and it's it's interesting because when you do read, you know, Aaron Seary's book, and he talks about the disciples, you know, disciples of Plotkin, you know, that they are just they they just genuflect and worship Plotkin and worship vaccines, and that they are not willing to even say, well, there might be a problem here.
• 17:37
  When and you you always wonder, Sherry, I'm sure you do, like I do.
• 17:41
  It's like, do these people really believe this?
• 17:43
  Or is this just you know, and it's like you can't even, I can't even conceive how an intelligent, well-educated physician, and they're almost all physicians, could not open their eyes to the obvious, right?
• 17:56
  Like you're doing more harm than good.
• 17:58
  50% of American kids are sick, 80% can't qualify for the military at 18.
• 18:03
  Like, obviously, there's a problem, and we should be looking at the compulsory medical exposures to see if that's a part of the problem.
• 18:09
  Uh, you know, it it boggles my mind.
• 18:12
  Do they understand and they just sort of like put it out of their mind?
• 18:17
  Are they sort of evil and they know that what they're doing is wrong, but they're making money, or do they really believe this religion and it's a dogma, and you have to believe it to be a member of the club, and they just have to stay in the club.
• 18:30
  And I can't tell you what the answer is.
• 18:32
  I don't know.
• 18:33
  I don't know, but very well said, because that's really true.
• 18:36
  You have to believe it to be a member of the club.
• 18:38
  You know, that's just it.
• 18:39
  And if you and if you decide you aren't gonna believe it anymore, I mean, what they come after you against the excommunication.
• 18:46
  So two of the plaintiffs in our case, Sherry are Dr.
• 18:49
  Paul Thomas and Dr.
• 18:50
  Ken Stoller.
• 18:51
  I mean, they were run out of town, right?
• 18:53
  They were exiled, they were made pariahs in the pediatric medical community for saying the obvious we're doing more harm than good with these shots.
• 19:02
  It's demonstrable, it's real science, right?
• 19:05
  We have a higher autism rates in the kids who are fully vaccinated.
• 19:08
  We have virtually no autism in the kids who aren't vaccinated.
• 19:11
  And thankfully, since Ken and Paul stood up against pharma on this, you know, more and more science is coming out.
• 19:18
  I mean, you know, the truth does defend itself.
• 19:21
  Like we're on the side of truth here, but the dogma and the money and the the the kind of the barriers are you know, they're pretty mind-boggling.
• 19:32
  It's a multi-generational indoctrination.
• 19:36
  Because when even in the general community, when a parent says, wait a minute, I want to think about this, then they've got the mother-in-law that's the nurse or their father that was a pediatrician, and they come down on them.
• 19:47
  It's a multi-generational belief system because people will say, I believe in vaccines.
• 19:53
  You don't say I believe in cars or I believe in lawnmowers, you know.
• 19:58
  So, but you have this blind.
• 20:00
  Belief in this technology.
• 20:02
  So I wouldn't.
• 20:03
  Wait, wasn't it during COVID?
• 20:04
  I think Fauci had trust the science.
• 20:06
  Like science is not something to be trusted.
• 20:08
  It's something to be falsified.
• 20:10
  It's something to be tested.
• 20:12
  And it's always evolving.
• 20:14
  Like even the words, as you point out, like they're crazy.
• 20:18
  They they believe the reality is that this is not science.
• 20:22
  Science is always debated.
• 20:24
  Science is always tested.
• 20:26
  It's always evolving.
• 20:28
  This is not science.
• 20:29
  This is a belief system.
• 20:31
  It really is.
• 20:32
  And I want to circle back around to your book here, Turtles All the Way Down.
• 20:35
  I want to I want to read for the audience a section out of this and have you make a comment on it.
• 20:40
  It's just a couple of sentences.
• 20:41
  It says the topic of vaccines is so polarizing and let uh although it's we agree that it's less hostile than it used to be.
• 20:48
  Here's one of the conclusions in the book, Turtles All the Way Down.
• 20:52
  And that's why I love this book so much.
• 20:54
  This book represents this book presents a broad and comprehensive analysis of vaccine safety.
• 21:00
  We scrutinize the field from various angles and from every point of view, the same pattern emerges.
• 21:07
  Adequate scientific evidence for the safety of vaccines is severely lacking.
• 21:12
  And health agencies and pharmaceutical companies are deliberately concealing their true harms from the public.
• 21:20
  You know, and that just is it just says it all, Mary.
• 21:23
  But our conversation is about when do you think this is ever going to become completely mainstream?
• 21:29
  And how will we get physicians to understand this?
• 21:33
  I think we're getting close with the general public.
• 21:36
  Obviously, Sherry, it's harder to get to the physicians because as you point out, they go through rigorous indoctrination.
• 21:43
  Uh, not only in pre-medical school, sort of part of the general public, but then in medical school, then in their residencies, in their internships.
• 21:51
  So it it the doctors are not, you know, it's as it's a small group of doctors like you, thank God.
• 21:57
  Uh, and Paul Thomas and Ken Stoller and Larry Pilevsky, who are leading the charge among doctors, but most doctors aren't gonna do that.
• 22:06
  Um, but how close are we?
• 22:07
  We're getting very close, Sherry.
• 22:09
  And and then I think, you know, I think it's very it's slow, it's like a lot of things.
• 22:14
  It's slow, slow, slow, slow, and then it's then it then it's just very, very fast.
• 22:20
  That's how it's gonna happen.
• 22:21
  It's a house of cards.
• 22:22
  It's like the pressure is building, building, building, and there's going to be one more trigger past COVID that's just gonna shatter the whole system.
• 22:32
  And uh, I I really do believe that that's already starting to happen.
• 22:36
  We see it's starting to happen, you know, Florida, the governor, the the health director, uh Latipo are really saying, you know, we we want to have no mandates.
• 22:45
  Idaho, the health freedom bill.
• 22:46
  We want to have no mandates.
• 22:48
  Other, you know, red states are taking that up.
• 22:50
  We want to have health freedom laws.
• 22:52
  I really and one of the things I say, Sherry is the idea of compulsory medicine or medical coercion of any kind, like the childhood schedule across the whole United States.
• 23:04
  It is totally at odds with prior free and informed consent and bodily autonomy.
• 23:09
  It's totally at odds.
• 23:10
  You cannot have medical coercion.
• 23:12
  And that conflict that has existed in American law for over a hundred years at this point, that conflict is coming to a head.
• 23:20
  There's still cases coming out of COVID uh that are really putting that conflict squarely before the highest court.
• 23:28
  You can't have any medical coercion and say that you have prior free and informed consent, which is the bedrock of ethical medicine.
• 23:37
  So either you have the right to refuse any unwanted medicine, or you are a medical slave in a medical tyrannical system.
• 23:46
  It there's no gray area there.
• 23:48
  And I do go back to the Nuremberg code, which was about experimentation, but it's been expanded over the last hundred years.
• 23:55
  And that says the consent of the individual subject is absolutely essential.
• 23:59
  And I always focus on absolute.
• 24:01
  This there's no gray zone here.
• 24:03
  There's no cray zone.
• 24:04
  It's black and white.
• 24:05
  Either you have the right to say no, and you have the right to say yes, or you don't have any rights.
• 24:12
  Boy, that sums it up completely, Mary, because it's so true.
• 24:15
  I mean, informed consent implies the fact that you can say no.
• 24:20
  You know, if you're trying to, if you're going to even something like if you're gonna get a knee replacement, you know, and then you learn about how much physical therapy you have to do and the risk of infection and all these other things, you say, ah, you know, money isn't that bad.
• 24:31
  I think I can limp along on this for a while yet, you know, because I just really don't want to do that.
• 24:36
  They have the right to say no, but when it comes to vaccines, and you've got uh parents getting kicked out of pediatric uh clinics, you get them get kicked out of school, they can't get on an airplane, they can't go to summer camp, they can't go on a mission trip and all these things unless you are vaccinated, as though that is the bend all be all of keeping you from getting sick is just it's just nonsense.
• 24:57
  And I'm so grateful that after 26 years of just continually hammering this.
• 25:01
  I've never never veered from the message ever.
• 25:04
  Vaccines are not safe, they're not affected, they're not necessary, and every single one of them causes harm at some level.
• 25:11
  Even when parents say, My kids are fully vaccinated, they seem just fine.
• 25:14
  Well, seem just fine is the operative word there, because you don't know what their IQ may have been if they had not been vaccinated.
• 25:21
  You don't know all of those things.
• 25:22
  True.
• 25:23
  It's true.
• 25:24
  Uh, you're absolutely right.
• 25:25
  And one of the things that I was at a couple weeks ago uh by the Make America Healthy Again Institute, Maha Institute was about the massive epidemic of vaccine injury.
• 25:34
  And I do believe that Mevi concept, massive epidemic of vaccine injury is something that we now do have the science for from the Henry Ford study, from the Mawson studies, from Hooker and others.
• 25:46
  We now are in a position that we weren't in 26 years ago, Sherry, even though there was massive damage then, we didn't even have the rudimentary science.
• 25:55
  We now have the science.
• 25:56
  We have the evidence of the chronic disease epidemic.
• 25:59
  We do have the Secretary of Health and Human Services who's been pushing on this.
• 26:03
  We do have, you know, what the what the law is, it's being challenged, but that there should be shared clinical decision making.
• 26:11
  You should not be able to shove these shots down people's throats for their children.
• 26:16
  And you and I, you know, no, you look at the ingredients of these shots.
• 26:20
  How could they possibly not be doing damage?
• 26:23
  Formaldehyde, aluminum, still trace amounts of mercury.
• 26:27
  How can they not be doing damage?
• 26:29
  Of course they're doing damage.
• 26:31
  And we don't even really, you know, there's there's been such inadequate study.
• 26:35
  But I think the book turtles all the way down.
• 26:38
  One of the things I love about it.
• 26:39
  So one of the things like you were saying, Sherry, it starts from the premise that you're confused.
• 26:43
  It starts from the premise.
• 26:44
  You're a parent, you want the best for your child.
• 26:46
  Your doctor's telling you that the vaccines are safe and effective.
• 26:50
  And you want a second opinion.
• 26:52
  And so this book is totally based on 1200 peer-reviewed mainstream government sources.
• 26:59
  This is not woo-woo, you know, talking to the spirit stuff.
• 27:03
  This is CDC, you know, Journal of American Medical Association, New England Journal of Medicine, very standard.
• 27:10
  And it says nobody cares about effectiveness if there's not safety.
• 27:13
  Every parent cares most about safety.
• 27:15
  So the book is only about safety.
• 27:17
  And it really looks at what the industry and the AAP and the government say are the bases of safety.
• 27:24
  And it just obliterates them.
• 27:27
  It makes it really clear.
• 27:28
  There is not pre-clinical, there's not pre-marketing safety.
• 27:31
  There's not safety once it's on the market.
• 27:34
  Uh there's just no safety along the whole chain that that's really demonstrable.
• 27:39
  And it explains how that happens.
• 27:41
  And I love Sherry by the end of the book.
• 27:43
  I love that it starts at the very beginning.
• 27:45
  Let's hold your hand.
• 27:46
  Let's go get a cup of coffee.
• 27:48
  Let's take it easy.
• 27:49
  Let's just look at it, you know, sort of objectively.
• 27:51
  And as you say, there's summaries after each chapter.
• 27:54
  So if you can't read it in depth, just read the summary.
• 27:56
  But by the end of the book, they say this is a crime against humanity.
• 28:00
  This is this is absolutely a crime against humanity.
• 28:03
  And I I couldn't agree more.
• 28:04
  I always start crying when I read the last paragraph because this is a crime against humanity, Sherry.
• 28:10
  As we know, this is really intolerable.
• 28:12
  And that's why you and I and so many other people have devoted so much of our life force to this, because it's such an assault on humanity.
• 28:22
  It really is.
• 28:22
  And it's, you know, unless we stop it, it's only going to get worse because it's very lucrative.
• 28:27
  And if you can get away with the lie, well, you would sort of expand the lie.
• 28:32
  So, but the good news I really do believe is COVID and the efforts that you and so many others have put into this.
• 28:40
  Uh, it really is it's faltering.
• 28:43
  It's a house of cards, it's gonna tumble down.
• 28:45
  We're not quite there yet, but we've gotten a lot closer than we've ever been.
• 28:50
  This is a good place for us to just hold that thought because it's like, amen, you know, to that.
• 28:55
  So hold on to that thought.
• 28:57
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• 35:39
  Well, welcome back, everybody.
• 35:41
  Today we have a conversation with Mary Holland and Zoe O'Toole, who's the other person on this book.
• 35:47
  Uh, somehow we lost her connection.
• 35:49
  She's not been able to join back in with us.
• 35:50
  But Zoe O'Toole is a writer with Children's Self-Defense, and Mary is the president of Children's Health Descents, also an attorney, and they uh put this book forward, Turtles All the Way Down, Vaccine Science and the Myths.
• 36:04
  I'll tell you, this is my favorite book because of what Mary said, it really looks at vaccine safety, and you've got everything there you ever wanted to know about vaccines.
• 36:12
  I mean, after I read this book, I mean it's pretty thick, it's probably an inch, an inch thick or so.
• 36:16
  So you can read all of it.
• 36:18
  And I be there you go.
• 36:19
  Thank you, Mary.
• 36:20
  Um, for those that are watching, you can see the book.
• 36:23
  And it's um, so if you really, you know, the people that are researchers or you know, engineers or PhD sort of people, and they want I want to know everything.
• 36:32
  Well, it's everything there, plus 1,200 references, or the summary at the end of each chapter, or there's summaries at the end of the book.
• 36:40
  So you as a consumer, whether you're a mom, a doctor, an alternative, an integrative medicine practitioner, you can get everything that you want to know from this book.
• 36:49
  And so, second only to my own book, which is uh Zero Accountability in a Failed System.
• 36:54
  This is this book is my is my very favorite book.
• 36:58
  So, Mary, thank you so much for being here with us today.
• 37:01
  Um, when you went through and edited this book, because it's my understanding it was written by two or three pediatricians that wanted to remain anonymous.
• 37:09
  What did you what did you discover that surprised you as you were because you've been in this as long as I have.
• 37:14
  Was there anything in there that really surprised you as you were editing this book?
• 37:19
  Sherry, I just want to tell you this sort of the origin story.
• 37:22
  So I went to this conference in Tel Aviv of all places, Tel Aviv Israel in 2019, and I saw these posters of these turtles, and I'm like, what is that all about?
• 37:33
  And um, the book was only in Hebrew, and and I, but I I at the back there was a QR code, and for me, I'm very tech, sort of not savvy, but I was like, I'm really curious about this book.
• 37:45
  So I looked up the QR codes and I saw all these CDC and Jama and New England Journal references.
• 37:50
  I'm like, oh wow, I I really want to understand this book.
• 37:54
  And so I was put in touch with sort of the representative for the Anonymous Writers Coalition, and I said, You gotta make a couple of these chapters available to me in English.
• 38:04
  And so we started a dialogue, and so it wasn't published until 2022 in English, but then it was quickly translated into Italian and French and German and Spanish, because as you point out, it's a really basic book, and it kind of spans um somebody who really just has time for the summaries and just wants a sort of quick and dirty all the way to engineers, scientists, physicians who really want to know.
• 38:29
  And I have thought, Sherry, you know, Dr.
• 38:31
  Pierre Corey, Dr.
• 38:32
  Peter McCullough, Dr.
• 38:34
  Ryan Cole, these doctors who've kind of left Orthodox Medicine, many of them have said that it was really turtles all the way down that really helped them to make that leap and to sort of understand, yeah, this science.
• 38:47
  Uh, mainstream science does not support their claims uh that these things are safe and effective.
• 38:53
  So, what surprised me?
• 38:56
  I would say that, you know, in in editing it, I was really surprised by the depth of the lies.
• 39:03
  Um you know, it they in some places they really take apart and a really deep level.
• 39:10
  The the falsification in the clinical trials for the vaccines, like using aluminum as the so-called placebo, right?
• 39:19
  Using a poison uh against the vaccine and saying that that's actually inert.
• 39:25
  I mean, that just things that are like so literally criminal, Sherry.
• 39:31
  I mean, putting a child at risk and saying that that is an inert substance is really absolutely wrong.
• 39:38
  It's it's just morally wrong.
• 39:40
  And so they really um go through these things that are just morally wrong.
• 39:45
  Also, you know, they talk about how for doctors there's this empty toolbox they call it for treating vaccine injury because they pretend that there is no vaccine injury, and therefore, why would I need tools to fix it?
• 39:58
  Although vaccine.
• 40:00
  Vaccine injury is pervasive.
• 40:01
  There's a massive epidemic.
• 40:03
  And, you know, I should just mention, Sherry.
• 40:06
  So we've talked a little bit about this lawsuit that children's health defense is bringing against the American Academy of Pediatrics.
• 40:12
  Well, the two leading plaintiffs, Sherry, are mothers of children, toddlers, and a baby that died that died by following the AAP schedule.
• 40:22
  These were physicians who were following the AAP schedule and the toddlers and babies died.
• 40:29
  So it just all is a part of this absolute, you know, egregious lie that somehow we're doing something noble and preventing disease.
• 40:41
  And one of the chapters in the book, um, Sherry is, you know, mortality from infectious diseases was almost it was negligible.
• 40:50
  It was near zero from polio, from measles, from uh from pertussis.
• 40:57
  By the time vaccines were really introduced on a massive level, really starting in the 60s, where this really kind of picked up, you know, mortality was negligible.
• 41:07
  And the babies or children that died were children who, in some way, uh almost universally had very serious medical conditions and complications.
• 41:17
  And that's just one of the lies that uncovers.
• 41:19
  I mean, it's really, it is a great book.
• 41:21
  I I didn't write it, so I can say that with no uh sort of, you know, I can say that with humility.
• 41:27
  It really is a great book.
• 41:28
  And I read the first couple chapters in English, I and literally their anonymity has been preserved even to me.
• 41:36
  I truly don't know their names.
• 41:37
  I truly don't know their backgrounds, although I suspect that, you know, they're scientists and doctors because it's done at such a level of depth.
• 41:44
  But it really is a fantastic book.
• 41:47
  And uh I'm so grateful that there are many other fantastic books like yours that have joined in this chorus.
• 41:54
  But this is a really, really valuable book.
• 41:56
  Yeah, it really, really is.
• 41:58
  It is the book, the go-to reference book, you know, that that people, everybody should buy this and have this sitting on their shelf for because there's, you know, when you when you really start spending as much time in vaccines as you and I've done over the years that we've been doing this, it's uh it's an encyclopedic knowledge because there are so many vaccines and so many ingredients and so many combinations and so many laws and policies and all these different things that you know for the for the person who isn't living it every day like what we do, and you just occasionally come across it, you want to have a reference that you can go to, go, you know, I remember reading something about that, but you can pull out the book, the extensive index on the back, and you can go right to the part that you're looking at, which is really, really important.
• 42:43
  You know, I'm kind of writing a series of um smaller little books right now for the same reason that people's attention span is really small, uh short.
• 42:53
  It started with Twitter with our 24 characters and it's just gotten worse since then.
• 42:57
  Um, I just put out a book at this couple months ago on Protussis.
• 43:01
  It's called Protestants through the ages.
• 43:03
  That is um everything that it's an 80-page book, so it's just small, and it tells you about the transition from acellular to wholesale whole cell pretesses, how whole cell is still used around the world, so we're still causing brain damage with that.
• 43:16
  Um, you know, giving the vaccine to to toddlers, how the fabricated science, absolutely non-existent science for teenagers and for pregnant women, and this nonsense about getting about grandparents that need to get a vaccine.
• 43:32
  And if they get an acellular vaccine, they're more likely to become a carrier when they're holding the baby and breathing them, they're more likely to be blowing pertusses down on that baby and making it sick.
• 43:42
  So I wrote it intentionally with just each of those chapters.
• 43:45
  It's an 80-page book with 40 references, so you can look at all, look at all the all the stuff that's there.
• 43:52
  But I just wanted to get, you know, it's really important to give people bite-sized amounts of what they have.
• 43:57
  And that's what this book does too with turtles all the way down.
• 44:00
  You can use it as a big reference.
• 44:02
  You can read the summaries, you can look at the end and what you were talking about, Mary, about this saying this is a crime against humanity.
• 44:08
  It is, it is the most criminal thing that we've ever done.
• 44:12
  All the decades of damage and death.
• 44:15
  And when you were saying in that case that child died, I I've always wondered how a pediatrician continues to administer vaccines when they see a baby die in front of their eyes.
• 44:28
  I mean, I've I've known of cases where the baby convulsed and died on the table in the pediatrician's office.
• 44:36
  I mean, do they just go, hmm, defective child was going to happen anyways?
• 44:41
  I mean, how can they, in good consciousness as a human being, continue to do this?
• 44:46
  I don't understand.
• 44:48
  You know, it's it's the it's the wonderful doctors like Paul Thomas and Liz Mumper who see and Ken Stoller and and uh Kelly Sutton who see the damage and they say, I'm not gonna do this.
• 45:02
  I came to medicine to help people, to help children.
• 45:05
  I'm not gonna participate.
• 45:07
  I'm gonna learn.
• 45:08
  Like Liz Mumber talks about the young child that she vaccinated and the kid develops autism and she had the the integrity to say, maybe it was something I did, and then that turned around her whole medical practice.
• 45:21
  It's it's shocking to me, Sherry.
• 45:23
  I'll be honest with you.
• 45:24
  It's it's quite shocking that more doctors don't uh say there's something desperately wrong here.
• 45:32
  Um, but I think we do know that people can do bad things, especially when the prohibitions against doing the right thing are so high, right?
• 45:41
  And we've talked about it.
• 45:42
  They will throw you, they they will they will destroy your name.
• 45:45
  That's the reason that the authors of Turtles All the Way Down don't put their names on it.
• 45:48
  They will destroy your career, they will destroy your name.
• 45:52
  And frankly, you know, I don't think we know the full depths of the the nightmare that they cause to the people.
• 45:58
  They they can pursue them legally.
• 46:00
  Uh they make life really, really hard for the doctors who step out of line.
• 46:06
  And so most don't.
• 46:07
  Most doctors won't step out of line.
• 46:09
  And we're so grateful to the doctors that do step out, um, physicians for informed consent, the maps group, uh, the Rimlin Center, what you you know, do on the various podcasts with Five Docs and with Dr.
• 46:22
  Palevsky.
• 46:23
  I'm so grateful to you because you speak truth to the power of the medical establishment, which is very powerful.
• 46:30
  Um, but I think one of the things that, you know, we need to think about, but especially you, the physicians need to think about is how do we make it easier for doctors to step out?
• 46:41
  How do we make it easier?
• 46:43
  And I think that what Kennedy did and the recommendations that have now been, you know, preliminarily frozen, um, moving towards shared clinical decision making, I think it does make it easier for pediatricians to say, you know, it's not required, uh, actually under the law, you get to help decide, you know, here's the real facts about meningitis, or here's the real facts about uh, you know, hepatitis A shot.
• 47:07
  I I felt like that was making it easier for pediatricians to back away from this coercive model.
• 47:13
  And, you know, it's been frozen for the moment.
• 47:15
  But I would love to hear more ideas about how do we reach the doctors.
• 47:21
  But as I said at the beginning, doctors in general are going to be harder to reach than the general public.
• 47:26
  The general public is pretty commonsensical.
• 47:28
  And it's like if half of all kids have some kind of immune system dysregulation and we're giving them shots starting on the day of birth for immune system enhancement, maybe there's a problem here, you know.
• 47:42
  You know, I think that, you know, um, I was a little bit concerned about this uh idea of shared decision making.
• 47:49
  You know, you know, Secretary Kennedy is just, he's just put pedal to the metal about getting nutrition into medical schools.
• 47:56
  And I was at an event at the NED down in DC about a month ago, maybe it's a little bit longer, six weeks maybe, uh, where he was there and told he and Dr.
• 48:04
  Oz told the story of how he's getting nutrition into the schools, that they talked to the medical directors of the schools and the people that write the board exams and then the people that monitor the board exams and he got them all together and said, listen, we got to work together to make this happen, which is something Bobby's always been terrific at at being able to do.
• 48:23
  Um, and I said, you know, but seriously, we've got to somehow get education into physicians because the only thing that they're taught in medical school is here's the schedule, memorize it.
• 48:33
  This is why you have to give them a disorder because of the 30-day rules on some of these vaccines.
• 48:39
  And shared decision making only works when both people are knowledgeable.
• 48:43
  I mean, if a parent comes in that's very knowledgeable and tries to talk to their pediatrician who's totally pro-vaccine and uh and doesn't know how to answer the questions of like what's in the vaccine, they don't have any idea.
• 48:55
  How can they have a shared decision making?
• 48:58
  And if parents are not knowledgeable, if they don't have any idea and they don't even know the questions to ask, and the pediatricians don't just say, well, let's have a conversation about this, and they're gonna have to say a conversation about what?
• 49:10
  I mean, there I think there's a knowledge gap.
• 49:12
  Yeah, I think you're right.
• 49:14
  I think that's a really good point.
• 49:15
  And I think that's an interesting point to raise with the secretary of not only does there need to be nutrition education, but there needs to be a reconsideration of what is the education about vaccines in medical school.
• 49:27
  What are the injuries?
• 49:28
  What are the contraindications?
• 49:30
  Um, you know, what what's really in them?
• 49:33
  Um, but I I have a feeling, Sherry, that the real revolution is coming from the parents.
• 49:39
  It's it's from the moms.
• 49:41
  It's not really gonna come from the doctors.
• 49:43
  That's just the sad reality.
• 49:44
  I mean, I'm like I say, I'm so grateful for all of the physicians who are speaking out.
• 49:49
  But I think um it's probably just people are gonna refuse.
• 49:53
  And that's already happening, you know.
• 49:55
  Uh, tens of thousands of people have moved out of New York State and California and Maine and Connecticut.
• 50:00
  Because they don't want to be forced to inject their children with poison.
• 50:05
  Yeah, it's it's really, really true.
• 50:08
  You know, I hope that the rest of the red states will maintain their exemption sort of thing.
• 50:12
  Well, we're down to the last few minutes in our conversation today, Mary.
• 50:15
  Why don't you fill us in a little bit more about what CHD is up to these days?
• 50:19
  Not only you've mentioned these lawsuits, and I know that you've published a lot of books like Brian Hooker's books and you know, all those different things.
• 50:26
  What else is on the plate for CHD?
• 50:29
  Well, we've got a lot going on, Sherry.
• 50:31
  We we work in four domains.
• 50:33
  We say education, advocacy, litigation, and science, and we look for synergies.
• 50:38
  And certainly vaccines has been at the heart of our education advocacy, litigation, and science efforts.
• 50:45
  But there's two other areas that we're really quite deeply engaged in at this point, electromagnetic radiation, and we are really trying to challenge uh a sort of an end run by the Federal Communications Commission that's trying to basically disallow any state legal actions, any state control over stationing a tower or an antenna outside of a baby's window or on school grounds or on a firehouse, really causing harm.
• 51:12
  And as we move from 3G and 4G and to 5G and now 6G and 7G.
• 51:18
  You know, the the number of people who are going to have radiation injuries is just escalating.
• 51:24
  So we're very deeply involved in this electromagnetic radiation space.
• 51:28
  Uh, and that's you can come to our website.
• 51:30
  We have a sort of companion websites called Stop 5G.
• 51:33
  We have another one that's called 704 No More, which is a section of the Telecommunications Act that basically has federal law overriding state law.
• 51:44
  So that it's very difficult to challenge the installation of a tower right next to your bedroom, which is gonna depreciate your value of your property, but most importantly, it's gonna be beaming radiation, which could cause a stroke, which could cause migraines, which should cause all kinds of very serious health concerns.
• 52:01
  And we just um today, in fact, submitted a brief in a Supreme Court case um that's coming up that will be argued in April, late April.
• 52:11
  Uh, it's Monsanto versus Dernell.
• 52:13
  And this is about the use of glyphosate.
• 52:15
  And again, sort of legal barriers from prohibiting people from suing for the injuries that glyphosate has caused.
• 52:24
  And we really believe that glyphosate, which it is intended to kill insects, it also severely disrupts the microbiome.
• 52:34
  It severely disrupts the gut bacteria, and especially so for children.
• 52:40
  And we really believe that the environmental protection agency has been derelict uh in what they've done.
• 52:45
  And so the mission of CHD is to um to you know defend children's health to redress the harms that have been caused and put in place safeguards so that the harms that have been happening don't happen again.
• 52:58
  And so while we're primarily focused on vaccines, it's not the only thing we're doing.
• 53:03
  And we have a really rich website, children's health defense.org.
• 53:07
  We're on X Children's HD.
• 53:10
  Um, and you can watch us every day, our streaming platform, CHD TV, and you can get like um an eye, you know, uh a text message on it.
• 53:19
  And then we come out with Defender Monday through Friday and the best of the week on Sunday.
• 53:23
  So we're we're pretty busy, Sherry, and um, and we really like you so appreciate public support.
• 53:31
  We can't do what we do without public support.
• 53:34
  And tell people where they could go to support you because it's really important.
• 53:38
  So come to children's health defense.org and there's a donate button on the upper right hand.
• 53:44
  We're a nonprofit.
• 53:46
  We get no uh government money, which I'm grateful for.
• 53:50
  We get no corporate money.
• 53:52
  Um, and we don't have sponsors.
• 53:54
  So we are absolutely dependent that the public, you people listening and watching what we do think that it's valuable.
• 54:02
  And um, and we're so grateful for the support that we get because I think we really are um reaching tipping points, Sherry, on some of these toxic exposures to children that have been harming them for decades and decades.
• 54:16
  And I do believe the public is really waking up on these issues.
• 54:19
  And so now the fight is more important than ever.
• 54:21
  We're getting very close to real changes.
• 54:25
  And so it's really important that we stay in the fight and that we take this to the next level and win.
• 54:31
  I thank you.
• 54:31
  I totally agree with you, Mary.
• 54:33
  There's one uh thing I want to put on your because you're talking about EMFs.
• 54:36
  Uh, I did a two-part interview on this show.
• 54:38
  It's the only person I've done a two-part interview who wrote a book called The Dark Side of Prenatal Ultrasound.
• 54:45
  Oh, wow.
• 54:45
  It's really intense and it folds right into your wheelhouse about e.
• 54:49
  Oh, thank you.
• 54:50
  Great.
• 54:50
  We will definitely check that out.
• 54:52
  Get you in touch with that because it's a story that needs to be told.
• 54:56
  And it has a very thick book.
• 54:58
  It's 500 and some pages, but the last 200 pages is just footnoted references.
• 55:03
  There's a lot of each, you know, we do books, as you know, and um, we're coming out with a book about the harms of um electromagnetic radiation by a radiologist, right?
• 55:14
  By an MD radiologist.
• 55:15
  So yeah, but I would love to know about that.
• 55:18
  We would love to have that author on CHD TV.
• 55:21
  We're all reaching slightly different pockets of uh people, and um, we all are you know working together to raise awareness.
• 55:29
  Yeah, that it's uh it's got 1800 references, so it's uh really real well-written book.
• 55:35
  I'll make sure that I get you in contact with that person.
• 55:37
  That would be great, Sherry.
• 55:38
  Thank you.
• 55:39
  So thank you so much, Mary, for your time here today.
• 55:41
  I know how busy you are.
• 55:43
  Holy goodness, it's just so hard to get hold of you because in you know, our we're like Brownian movement.
• 55:48
  We just like Well, we've been at this a long time, Sherry, but I think we're finally seeing the fruits of our labors, truly.
• 55:55
  I really do believe that.
• 55:56
  I think so too.
• 55:57
  So with that, I want to thank you for being here today.
• 55:59
  I'm sorry that we lost Zoe, but I was glad she was at the very beginning of the show for a few minutes.
• 56:04
  Uh, Turtles All the Way Down is a must buy and a must read and a must have.
• 56:09
  It's not even necessarily a book that you like a novel that you sit down and read from cover to cover.
• 56:13
  You can read on the vaccines that you're most interested at the time.
• 56:17
  So please put that in your store.
• 56:18
  You can get it from children's health defense.
• 56:20
  We have created a bookstore.dr10penny.com where we put all of the author's books in there.
• 56:25
  So I want to thank everybody that's been with us here today.
• 56:27
  And with that, I close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible.
• 56:30
  I close all my podcasts with, which is Romans 12, 12.
• 56:34
  Rejoice in hope, be patient in trouble and be persistent in prayer because boy, we need a lot of that these days.
• 56:41
  So thank you.
• 56:42
  Trust God for everything.
• 56:43
  He'll never let you down.
• 56:44
  He's with you there every step of the day.
• 56:46
  We'll see you again tomorrow or the next time, right here on the 10 penny files.
• 56:51
  Have a great rest of your day, everybody.
• 56:52
  Goodbye and God bless.