Latest / The Spiro Podcast: Managing your Real Estate Photography & Videography Business / Shooting & Selling: The Hybrid Role

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Shooting & Selling: The Hybrid Role · The Spiro Podcast: Managing your Real Estate Photography & Videography Business

0:00
Coming up on this episode of The Spiro podcast.
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when you're the one that's
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shooting and selling and building that business,
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especially when you're first just starting out, you build such good relationships.
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I mean, it feels really good.
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I like I love working with the realtors that I do in my market
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But that can be a double edged sword when you go to hire another photographer
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Welcome to the Spiro podcast.
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Managing your real estate photography and videography business
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with your hosts, Todd Kivimaki
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and Craig Magrum.
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Hi and welcome to the Spiro podcast,
0:38
managing your real estate photography and videography business.
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Spiro is a software platform that's created designed by a real estate
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media company to help you manage and grow your day to day business.
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I'm Craig Magrum and welcome to the podcast.
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And with me
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each and every week, our co-host and owner and founder of Spiro Todd Kivimaki.
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It has been a crazy busy week again.
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holy cow.
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I know we get to this from like, how could it be Friday,
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the day we record on how could it be Friday already?
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Yes, it has been a crazy week and a good week, but very busy.
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I think we have some really relevant
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items, some items that we ourselves use every day and are struggling with,
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and there's always this juggle of busyness and how can we get things done.
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And being business owners,
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there seems to be sometimes too many hats that we have to wear.
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I think that
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defines my career wearing multiple hats in a role.
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And actually that was a really good setup.
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But I think about it, Todd, because that's kind of what we're talking about today.
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It is. yes,
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We're going to be talking about the hybrid role of a photographer
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and business development specialist sales person, whatever title
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you want to give it, the photographer and the business development role.
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And we want to thank Connor and Connor.
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I don't know exactly how
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to pronounce your last name, so I don't want to butcher it on the podcast.
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But Connor sent in that question just he said, Hey, I'm,
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you know, building my business and looking at he's
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looking at more of the boutique style of business,
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keeping it a little bit smaller and giving more attention to clients,
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which is kind of how I had run mine as well, he said.
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But I'm interested in hearing a little bit more about this
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hybrid role of photographer and business development specialist.
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So, Connor, great question. Thank you.
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If you do have a question for the podcast
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that relates to the business side of real estate media,
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we want to encourage you to drop us a line.
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hello@spiro.media.
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We love the questions.
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We if we don't know the answers, we'll invite someone on
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or find someone that we can invite to come on and answer those questions
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because we want to empower you to have a great, strong, solid business.
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So, yeah.
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All right. We're going to get to that.
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Another thing, Craig, sorry to step on you there.
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Another thing that you can send in to us more than just questions.
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What are your needs? Hmm?
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Like, what do you what are you struggling with or where is there
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a gap in your business right now?
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I think sometimes I'm
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we might be a bit disconnected from what you might be going through.
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So, you know, that's the thing.
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Back when it was just me or myself and one or two others,
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like I have to go back 20 years in time and I've forgotten
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some of those things for good and for bad.
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But like, what is it that you need?
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You need help training photographers?
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Is that a gap of yours right now?
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Like we have this incredible video series curriculum that we put
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all of our photographers through that's self-guided, that has check points.
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Do you need to know more about legalities, contracts
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up and workers comp?
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What does it mean to hire an employee?
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Interview Questions, Job Postings.
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How do you need help creating procedures because you're hiring
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on your first employee like Connor's asking about today.
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Maybe it's your first VA.
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How do you train that?
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How do you find a VA? I had that question just the other day.
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That's a good one to talk about.
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But where do you find them at?
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How do you how do you tell them what you want done?
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How do you know what a VA should do?
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Like if there's some of those needs that you have,
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how could we make your job,
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your business, your job easier, your business better?
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I would love to know some of those things.
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Maybe we can repurpose
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a lot of what we have at our real estate media company Wow Video Tours
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and look at how we can help you grow with those.
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So any of those types of correspondence in, we love knowing those
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and because some of those things we forgot about those gaps in our business
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and we'd love to fill those gaps for you all out there.
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Yeah, good stuff.
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Really can't add anything to that.
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But yeah, again, hello@spiro.media
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If you're wondering about any of that,
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some of what you just said kind of
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just triggered a something that I wanted to address real quick.
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We've gotten a couple of comments on the YouTube channel
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wanting to see tutorial videos on Spiro itself,
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and they're looking for it on the YouTube channel not finding it.
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All they're finding is the podcast.
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So I just wanted to kind of clarify and point you in the
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in the right direction that the YouTube channel really is just for the Spiro
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podcast, where we talk about the business side of real estate media.
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If you're interested in tutorials on the software itself,
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we want to encourage you go to our website Spiro.media, and in the top down
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there is a link to the knowledge base where you will find a plethora.
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That's one of my favorite words.
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I'm going to do a quick scroll moment here.
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Todd,
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Do you now, some people might not remember this movie.
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Do you remember the movie The Three Amigos was Chevy Chase, Steve Martin and Martin Short,
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there is a line about a plethora of pinatas.
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Every time I hear the word plethora, I just
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I think of that line from the Three Amigos and I'm starting to giggle.
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Okay. Sorry,
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I. Plethora of pinatas, anyway.
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Yeah. All right.
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There is a plethora of it.
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Almost spilled my coffee
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I saw that
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of tutorial articles and videos on the Spiro
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system, how to get things set up if you.
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Can people schedule like a consultation as well?
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Todd?
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So the best place to get started
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is actually the get started button on our website.
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Spiro.media.
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Once you click that, you answer four very simple questions.
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We don't just for simple questions and then you have a demo,
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you have a full demo.
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So it's myself giving a demo to Eli Jones
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and going over the system.
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So you'll get everything from the front to the back of what that is.
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That will lay a really good groundwork of what
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Spiro has to offer, and there's a ton of other features as well.
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So from that point you can create a system for free.
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You can visit the knowledge base and you can always contact us as well
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with specific questions.
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We'll be happy to answer them for you.
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We try to send everybody to that get started button because that demo
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we have found answers 85% of your questions
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and it really gives you a good idea as to the flow of the actual system.
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You can see it, you can watch it in your own time
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and that will bring you up to speed
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as to the way this system operates and how it will look and feel for you.
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Yup. So there you go.
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In case you looking again on the YouTube channel for the tutorials,
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check out the knowledge based link at Spiro.media.
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Okay, We do talk about the software from time to time here on the podcast,
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but we really don't want this to be an ongoing commercial for Spiro.
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We just want to empower you with good business knowledge to help your business.
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So anyway, yeah. All right.
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Thank you for indulging me on that.
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- Yeah. Yeah. - All right.
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Well,
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Yes, speaking of not talking about Spiro.
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Give me a minute.
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I'll tell you what happened
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okay
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What's going on with Spiro?
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We got to pay some bills here. Okay?
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Here's Spiro. new features.
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We have what's called We're calling a magic link for your coupons.
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What this will do is it will make it very easy
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for you to share a link with your client.
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They click on the link, and then that coupon will automatically
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be applied for them on the last step of the order page.
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Pretty cool, right?
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They don't have to remember what the coupon code is.
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They don't have to type it in.
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Is it capital was it lowercase?
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What was the coupon code?
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Where is that email out?
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How do I copy?
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Right click, click, click, copy. Where's copy yet?
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Anyways, we know your clients.
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There are clients to like. Craig said the top of the show.
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We run a real estate media company too.
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We want to make it easy for your realtor.
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So new magic links, those are in there as well.
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You can find them in the coupon section as it was
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always located in the shopping cart coupons.
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Also the report filter range.
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So if you're running reports out of Spiro, you'll mainly find these in the metrics
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and report section you can now select more than inside of one month.
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So you can do up to a quarter of the year.
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So if you want to see what reporting is for up to 90
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days, you can select those date ranges now
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we've revamped and overhauled the upload into the gallery
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from the property website manager, so we have made this much quicker for you.
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We have made the thumbnails generated much quicker.
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So you will see a greatly increase experience
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inside of that gallery and we're happy to do that.
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Also with the images going up, they have to come down in a download.
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We have made some adjustments to the download as well,
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the way that your clients will use them and get the download
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image sequence numbers.
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So that is all
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adjusted to the way that we have found that you guys want to upload them.
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We historically have used a three digit sequence number.
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We find that a lot of you are using a one digit sequence number.
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When you do that, the images go out of order
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because the computer looks at them from a binary perspective anyways,
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not to go to technical, are you going to upload a one digit
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sequence number now and they'll go one, two, three, four, like we expect
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your logo size on the order page.
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It is bigger and more prominent, so we have maximized that,
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especially if you had more of a
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a horizontal and some pending the orientation of your logo,
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some of them were quite small and we want your brand to shine
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and we have increased the size of your logo on the login page.
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Also in
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your realtors can now hide the or your clients can now hide the realtor
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and equal housing logo on the property website and the marketing content.
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So we know you all work with people more than realtors.
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We do too.
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Airbnb, VRVO owners, builders,
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you know, people you have clients that do remodels or flips.
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They're not realtors. They don't need that.
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And you can turn that off now.
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also, some of you have told us that you need the company information.
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As far as the contact information, phone number
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on the property website that is on there as well.
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Pete, thank you for that.
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Pete, you told us that a long time ago. So that's in there now.
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And then also we've optimized some of the marketing templates.
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We have more marketing templates coming and also when you used to go modifying
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or you get a pop up if the invoice is already created that said, Hey, warning,
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if you change this order, you're going to change the invoice.
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We heard from a lot of you
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that that's just assumed and you hate that pop up and hate typing. Yes.
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To get past that pop up, we officially threw that pop up away.
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So that thing is done.
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Gone in the trash can and down the road.
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So no more pop up for you all and that'll be in there
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or that won't be in there to streamline your experience.
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So.
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Excellent.
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You mentioned Pete, was it Pete Stagl of Servant 360.
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I forgot.
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Yeah.
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I forgot to mention this last, last podcast.
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So Pete and his lovely wife have were on vacation recently
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and I think we've mentioned that he is a motorcycle rider and as am I.
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He's ridden a lot longer than I have.
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And they, they've taken what I think it was like
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2000 miles by the time that we had connected.
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Well, anyway, they were up in New York and in Ontario
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and he said, Hey, I'm coming across into Detroit and coming down 75.
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Do you want to connect for dinner
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now, Pete and Servant 360, they're based out of New Mexico.
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So it was kind of kind of cool that he was, you know, in our neck of the woods.
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And I said, Absolutely.
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We Todd and I met Pete.
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Well, it's been a couple of years now, hasn't it?
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it was
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two years ago in Vegas.
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PMRE.
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PMRE. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And we've just really hit it off like we have with many of you.
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But he said, Hey, I'm coming down 75.
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Well, I live right off I-75.
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Well, you do too, basically, Todd.
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I'm just a little bit further south.
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And so we connected in and got to ride our bikes together
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and went down to Findlay, Ohio, for dinner.
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And and I got some I got some video footage
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of our ride together, bought a couple of
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GoPro videos and a 360 video as well.
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I have not had time to work on editing any of it together.
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It was kind of a test
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test recording.
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The exposure's not great.
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It's like, Oh yeah, I need to fix some things.
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But it was kind of fun.
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So you said Pete and I thought, maybe I can try and get something, edited it
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up real quick and we can share it on the, on the video portion of the podcast.
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But for other it was it was a good time with Pete and his wife.
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Pete’s a great guy.
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He was literally, I think the third or fourth user in the system, to sign up
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and has given us a ton of great feedback, just a great marketing mind.
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Also he, he runs he, he has created
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a, a CRM for real estate photographers called PIXL CRM
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PIXL, PIXL CRM.
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So if you want to check it out,
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we're actually transitioning to it at Wow our main media company right now.
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So really cool things in there and it's worth a check on it.
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Always worth the conversation with Pete.
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I always get something from when I talk with him
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and he gave some really good tips on our podcast.
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My goodness, it's a year and a half ago,
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but there is an episode with Pete if you want to search
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in the podcast library.
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But that was cool. We got to connect with you.
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I missed you guys. I'm sorry.
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I had plans that evening and I couldn't join.
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Yeah, no.
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And my bicycle wouldn't have kept up with you guys, but that's just it.
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It might have been hard to pedal that fast.
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I have long legs, but I can't go that fast. I'm.
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I'm old.
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All righty.
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Well, that is a great way to get the podcast kicked off.
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We are 16 minutes into this now.
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Yeah, let's give these people something worth value here.
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goodness, I'm sorry, y'all.
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As we mentioned, Connor emailed in and had a question about the hybrid
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role of a photographer and basically a salesperson, for lack of a better word.
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You can call them a salesperson.
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You call them business development specialist.
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That's the term we use.
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But I thought we'd dive into that
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a little bit deeper than we've talked about before.
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Todd And he's he's got a couple of different questions, but
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let's talk about just
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the role as a whole and how it's kind of developed at
16:04
Wow video tours versus what the traditional set up
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has been for our photographers in our business development.
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We want to give a little bit of background to it.
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Yeah, I will.
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I'll give a brief background.
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So we
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we first thought about selling people outside of really myself.
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At the time it was about
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six or seven years ago
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and we were scaling quite rapidly
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and I was scaling through brokerage deals and at the time
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we started to greatly expand up and down the highway here, 75
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Craig mentioned it, and I was doing that by creating these relationships in cities
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and with the broker, and we were expanding quite rapidly.
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Well, when we're in these cities,
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our photographers were coming across more and more agents
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and they saw that there was more and more agents that weren’t using us.
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And at the time they just weren't using anybody.
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It was this was
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this was, you know, like I said, seven, eight, six, seven, eight years ago.
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And our photographers came to us and said,
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hey, is there a way that we can help more people know about, Wow,
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video tours and the agents in the cities that aren't using us?
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And we were asked that question enough times
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that we're like, Wow, there's I think there's something here.
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So we I hired on a consultant that was close to me,
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Shannon And we've mentioned Shannon.
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Shannon now
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has come back and worked for Spiro and we'll have her on this podcast
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because she has a wealth of information on my goodness. Yeah.
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And she helped us really kind of blow the doors off the thing, if you will.
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And built this training program.
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And we did this big kickoff
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launch to the photographers that wanted to be in the program train them.
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And we very quickly realized that photographers are not salespeople.
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Now, I have some we'll get to
18:04
some suggestions for you as if you're saying like,
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Oh, I really hope that that was going to work for me.
18:08
But let me just give you a little bit.
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Let me tie it all together.
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So we then transitioned into finding your typical,
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you know, your people who had sales experience.
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So the job posting wasn't for photographers,
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the job posting was for salespeople.
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And we happened to find some salespeople that had some photography experience
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or just like that realm of the industry.
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And we grew then with a sales team,
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but they were focused on sales first, shooting second.
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And then we,
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you know, we did that for five or six years and
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Steve has picked up, Steve and you guys, he's been on the podcast.
18:48
You know him, you love him.
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He has done a fabulous job with building that.
18:51
Sales teams are really well-oiled sales team
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and looking at it from a strategic standpoint of how we can expand.
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So there's different levels of expanding and, our, what we need at Wow
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because of our size a little bit different than someone who has one photographer
19:06
or two photographers or really even five photographers,
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it's just a little bit different because of our scale.
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And then we had a fabulous
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opportunity with Craig, and Craig
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started his own real estate media company
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and we kind of powered him
19:27
with software and editing and quality control and then Craig
19:32
Transition and into another field,
19:35
and then he came back and
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I couldn't stay away.
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So when Craig when Craig transitioned out,
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we bought his book of business and, and then he came back
19:50
and he's running that now under our umbrella of Wow video tours.
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So that's where we created this role because he came back around, holy crap.
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Like, yes, what can we do to make this work?
20:01
We would love it, you know, if if what do you need?
20:05
What do we need?
20:05
And we came up with this hybrid role.
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So that's kind of the history of what we're doing.
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We are looking to hire this hybrid role one more time in another city
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that we're just expanding into.
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And we found that there's times that it works really well
20:20
and there's times that we go a different route.
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So let me ask, what would the situation be where it works
20:27
really well and where a different route is needed, maybe going more?
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The traditional photographer and the salesperson?
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What would the, you know, the decision making matrix
20:38
look like for somebody that's considering growing their company in and
20:44
hiring another photographer and or salesperson?
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Yeah, good question.
20:49
So some of this is going to come down to
20:52
the variables of what type of investment
20:56
are you comfortable making in that new city
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or in your city?
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There's sometimes that if you grow into a new city,
21:06
if you have to hire a salesperson and then hire a photographer,
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you have a larger investment in that city.
21:15
And there are some times that it seems you're able to shoulder that investment
21:19
a little bit better if that person
21:22
who's selling also can do the shooting.
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And there's value in that as well, because if you sell it and then you go
21:30
shoot it, you're continuing to build those relationships,
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So Craig will tell you that
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he does this all day, every day when he's out on shoots.
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And there is a fabulous time where you can gain a great connection.
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And I think back over the last 20 years
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and I think that like the connections that we still have that are 20 years old,
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like it was just because I shot for him for five, ten years, they knew me.
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I built those relationships and no one's going to build it like you
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and you'll find other people that get it 80% or 90% of what you do it.
22:03
But there is a foundation that you're laying right
22:06
now, your company, if you're a team of one.
22:08
Yeah,
22:10
it can be a double edged sword in a way.
22:13
Todd Just full disclosure, because when when you're the one that's
22:16
shooting and selling and building that business,
22:18
especially when you're first just starting out, you build such good relationships.
22:23
I mean, it feels really good.
22:26
I like I love working with the realtors that I do in my market
22:30
because I've worked with them for so long.
22:31
We've gotten to know each other on a personal level.
22:33
We know, you know what's going on with our families to a degree, things like that.
22:37
But that can be a double edged sword when you go to hire another photographer
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because the relationship is so deep that
22:45
even if you're not the best photographer,
22:48
which I am not, I will fully say this
22:51
There are better photographers on our team than me
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because of the relationship.
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Sometimes those realtors don't want to work with anyone else
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because they don't have trust built with whoever it is that you're bringing on.
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So there is that challenge
23:10
and that's that can be hard to overcome.
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Part of what I have to sell
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when we bring somebody new on is, Hey, we vetted this person.
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They do a great job.
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I'm asking you to trust us in this and trust, you know, so-and-so
23:24
that's going to come shoot your listing.
23:27
I'm still your point of contact for for, you know, business related issues.
23:32
If you have any concerns, you can come to me.
23:33
You have to have those kind of conversations.
23:36
If you're bringing somebody new into your market and onto your team.
23:40
I don't know what prompted that. Todd, but
23:43
that just came to mind.
23:44
Yeah.
23:44
Craig And I think that can connect back to just what your goals are as a company.
23:50
So if your goal is so our goal at
23:52
WOW is to be a large media company.
23:59
We want to grow a team.
24:01
We want to give great value to our agents
24:04
and we want to give really, really good customer service.
24:08
And what our approach is aligns with those core values.
24:13
And we follow those values in all of our decisions.
24:16
If your values are different, that's okay.
24:19
That's great.
24:20
Actually, that's what's the cool thing about business.
24:22
If your value is to have the highest end
24:27
product and very niched and everything you put out,
24:31
everyone's trying to keep up with or everyone's got, how did they do that?
24:35
And you want to service
24:37
just a small group of clients and do very high end.
24:42
That's cool too.
24:43
I love that idea. I just I'm not that good.
24:46
So I went another way and,
24:49
you know, it's kind of funny, just as a subset, you know, there was
24:52
there was a posting and one of our our users, our Spiro user group
24:56
about how who shot this property and somebody saw it was a Spiro link
25:00
and one of their areas and it happened to be us and another user.
25:05
I love him. This is just his personality so I don't take offense to.
25:07
It was like critiquing our
25:10
photography
25:11
on the page and, you know, critiquing it.
25:14
I was like, you know, this is such a great thing.
25:16
Like, it's not our goal to give the most high end photography.
25:20
Like we understand that our clients
25:23
are looking to pixel peep on every single image.
25:27
They want good value, they want good turn around,
25:29
they want to get on the schedule in a few days
25:31
and they want to know they have someone.
25:32
When they pick up the phone, they can call and
25:37
we have
25:38
12, 14, 8000 agents a year who use us.
25:42
Now that's completely different to if you're more high
25:45
end architectural and you're looking at all those things.
25:49
I mean, honestly, this is the first time I looked at some of our photos
25:52
when I saw this link like and I have we have people at Wow that do that.
25:57
So it's not like it's not getting done, but they're just different goals.
26:01
Our goal is to do 12, 14,
26:04
15,000 jobs a year and we want to bring those things.
26:08
So if your goals are different, then that's fine
26:11
and you might approach things differently. So
26:16
I think just rewinding back, you asked me a question of
26:18
when do you pick the hybrid versus the full time?
26:21
And I gave the answer for the hybrid.
26:23
The time I would pick the full
26:24
time is when you just need to jump in to fit into a market.
26:27
It might it might be more remote to your other markets.
26:30
It might be a larger market.
26:32
Larger markets typically are tougher to break into
26:35
because you have you have more competition and you need someone
26:38
there just building relationships and you need someone selling your features
26:43
and benefits and your value on a full time level.
26:46
That's what I would go with just a full time salesperson.
26:48
The potential's higher, bigger market, you're going to
26:50
spend more money to start off, but that's a strategy you need to take.
26:54
Yeah, that's a great
26:56
what's the word?
26:57
I'm looking for criteria
26:59
to help you determine what type of role you're wanting to hire for.
27:03
That is the market size.
27:05
So the market I work is probably a medium to smaller market,
27:10
not small city, but it's not as big
27:13
as some of our other major, you know, major markets that we serve.
27:18
So we can get away with me serving in that hybrid role
27:20
of both business development and photographer.
27:24
Now, Connor asked a great question.
27:26
He said, I imagine the workload varies with more shooting
27:30
during busy times and more client engagement during slower periods.
27:33
So let's dive into that a little bit, Todd
27:36
because that's exactly what I deal with versus
27:40
the rest of our business development team that is full bore
27:44
go in sales development, business development year round.
27:48
Mm hmm. Yeah.
27:49
So, Craig, January this year, January, February this year, what were
27:53
what was your day like versus June, May, June, July this year.
27:58
Yeah. Well, I mean, Connor nailed it
28:01
when, when it's the winter,
28:04
at least in the area we're in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana,
28:09
there are very few real estate shoots to do.
28:12
So I'm not out shooting a whole lot,
28:14
so I've got to make the best use of my time.
28:17
You know, my eight, 8 hours a day plus whatever,
28:21
and being profitable for the business.
28:23
So during that slow time, I am out there building relationships.
28:27
I'm going to, you know, brokerage meetings
28:31
for for the the the realtor teams
28:35
making presentations about Wow video tours,
28:38
showing new features that we've rolled out and how that, you know,
28:42
how those things can benefit their business and build their brand.
28:45
I'm out doing coffee meetings, meeting current both current clients, checking in
28:50
with them and making sure we're taking good care of them
28:52
and asking for referrals and meeting new potential clients
28:56
and getting to know them and their business and their goals.
29:00
I always couch it in
29:02
terms of I want to get to know
29:04
you, your business, your goals.
29:07
And admittedly, I'd love to see if there's a way for us to help you achieve that.
29:12
There might be.
29:13
There might not be.
29:14
I just I like to be honest sometimes.
29:16
You know what a realtor is.
29:18
Goals are in terms of visual
29:19
or marketing might be something different outside of the scope of what we can do.
29:23
And if there's somebody else out there that can help them do that better.
29:27
Okay, great.
29:28
Now that's going to give us, you know, some ideas of what we could do better
29:32
and help us develop products and services down the road.
29:36
But I like to get to know newer clients.
29:38
I don't have time to do that during the spring, summer, early
29:41
fall season because I'm out shooting
29:45
four or five listings a day, sometimes six.
29:48
So I don't have time for the meetings and I can't block
29:51
that time out to meet with people.
29:54
I do to a degree, but only because now
29:57
we have another photographer in the market to help me cover shoots.
30:00
But I can't afford to block out lots of time for meetings
30:03
during the busy season because then there's
30:05
no availability for our clients and that gets them frustrated.
30:09
So it's it's a fine, it's
30:12
a tightrope walk to a degree, but you're definitely going to be shifting
30:17
your focus depending on the part of the year that you're in.
30:20
Mm hmm.
30:21
Long answer to a short, easy question, I guess.
30:24
No, that's great insight and great tips there on some of the
30:28
the verbiage that you use when you sit with a client and right there
30:32
that just shows that if you're like, oh, I don't want to sell,
30:35
you don't have to just just serve them like and give that.
30:38
So give that dialog that Craig shared.
30:41
Now, Craig, just looking at that, what
30:45
Okay, so let's just let's get to off the cuff.
30:47
We didn't talk about this in the show notes, but what, what are the positives
30:51
that what are things that you really like with that role?
30:55
For me, I think it's the mix of the type of work I get to do.
30:59
So it's not the same thing every day.
31:01
You know, I get to mix up building relationships and getting to know
31:04
people because I do enjoy getting to know people one on one.
31:08
I'm not so much a crowd type of guy or a big, big gathering,
31:13
but I love small groups and meeting with people one on one
31:15
and getting to know them on a deeper level.
31:17
I'm not a huge small talk guy, so I like that aspect of what I get to do.
31:22
But then also I get to go out by myself because I'm an introvert, right?
31:28
Ambivert.
31:29
Technically, but I'm an introvert.
31:31
I get to I get to go out and have my alone time just shooting
31:36
and letting the creative side of my personality come out
31:39
and look at different houses every day and, you know, different angles
31:44
to get and see just all sorts of ways people decorate their homes.
31:48
And it's just it's personally fulfilling to me
31:51
to have both of those aspects.
31:54
And for the hybrid role, you've got to find somebody like that
31:57
that loves creative side, but
32:01
also enjoys meeting people and talking and consulting
32:04
and being a servant to them and helping them build their business,
32:08
you know, not everybody is wired the same way.
32:11
So that's what what I like about it is just the variety
32:15
and what I get to do in the variety of, you know, environments and
32:19
different brokerages that I get to work with.
32:21
And it's funny, you see different cultures and different brokerages.
32:25
I just I like the mix.
32:27
I like the mix of what I do.
32:28
Yeah. Good answer.
32:30
So on the opposite of that, where are some gaps?
32:34
Where some things are like, oh, this is this is a shortcoming
32:37
or this is difficult to overcome with this type of position.
32:40
So what I've noticed, especially in the last few months, is
32:44
when you have somebody that is fully devoted to business
32:47
development, they're able to get out to a lot more social events
32:53
network, even more joy
32:56
like in our in our North Carolina market, Joy does a fantastic
32:59
job of co-sponsoring just different realtor
33:04
mixers and events with with other like third party vendors.
33:09
I just don't have the time to do that, especially during the busy season
33:13
when it's nice and warm out and people want to get out and do that.
33:16
I'm out shooting. I don't have time to play.
33:18
And so my approach to sales is different than than Joy's
33:22
approach to sales and business development.
33:25
And so the rate of new client
33:28
acquisition, I feel with our our full time
33:32
business development team is higher than what I'm able to achieve
33:36
because I can't spend all of my time doing that business development.
33:41
So my market share increase is slower
33:44
than our more major markets
33:47
where we have a dedicated business development person.
33:51
Now as a performance driven personality, I get frustrated by that and I feel like
33:56
I'm not doing a good enough job, but it's inherent in the role I have.
34:00
I just I can't grow it as fast.
34:02
So it's more of a slow and steady development
34:06
in this particular market than some of our other markets.
34:11
Yes, it's a role that when you do good in the role,
34:16
you literally cut off your ability to keep doing good in the role
34:20
because you're, you know, doing good by selling clients
34:24
come in, you have service them, thus your end now.
34:28
Now you've switched over roles to just being the photographer.
34:32
Thus you can't focus on
34:36
wanting to grow or get more business.
34:38
So that's a it's a tricky thing.
34:40
It's and it's no different than we've all taken with our own business.
34:44
So just to give you some insight here in Canada.
34:47
So Connor shared that he he launched his business
34:51
just April of 23.
34:54
He's doing yeah, he's doing 78,
34:57
70 to 80 jobs a month and that's that's great.
35:02
And he's in the 20 to 20 5ka month of revenue.
35:05
So I mean kudos to you.
35:07
Connor Yeah, that's an amazing point to be at.
35:09
One thing that I would suggest.
35:11
So for those of you that are in that position,
35:14
if those are you that half of that you need to just keep grinding.
35:18
We don't need to hire anybody first, just keep grinding.
35:22
Connor is is really at that
35:24
that turning point of really understanding
35:28
Do I need to bring someone to help me grow.
35:30
Yeah my thought there is so you've been very successful
35:33
in just over a year of being in business.
35:36
Like what you achieved is great.
35:38
So it's working.
35:40
But just the analogy I gave, like you worked hard
35:44
and now you created this new problem for yourself
35:47
of, okay, you're servicing everything, but you're really good at building business.
35:52
You wouldn't have gotten to this point if you weren't good at it.
35:55
And I think now you have the stresses
35:58
of having a decent sized business.
36:03
And when do that, as the business owner, I do this to you, start
36:07
to replace yourself and areas
36:11
that your most valuable in.
36:15
So Connor right now is thinking about replacing
36:18
the sales position that he's been doing.
36:21
So his client acquisition
36:23
well Connor grew to a 25k a month business and a little over a year.
36:27
He's pretty darn good at selling right there
36:30
I go without even knowing him, and I know him a little bit, but
36:34
anyone that can do that is talented.
36:37
So my suggestion would be,
36:41
I know it feels busy right now
36:43
and it's like you've become the
36:49
technician of your business.
36:52
Okay, so going back kind of the E-Myth, E-Myth
36:55
theories are the E-Myth book, but you're the one doing the work right
36:58
now, and you've gotten to the point where you're really good at it.
37:02
You can cruise,
37:02
you can shoot those houses in no time, and you can still keep the clients happy.
37:07
And you know what?
37:07
All the technicals are behind the scenes, but keeping you behind the scenes
37:11
right now I think is a bad decision for your business
37:15
because it's been the best decision you've had
37:17
in growing your business to a nice size and a little over a year.
37:23
Oh, Craig, you you might have some insight
37:25
to share here as well, because you did the same thing
37:28
and you scaled to a very nice size
37:32
and you were really good at building relationships.
37:35
And you think, am I am I wrong?
37:39
No, because that's the
37:40
exact question I had to face.
37:44
And I remember I think it was Derek when Derek was with us, he
37:50
he pointed out, he's like, Craig, you can't shoot forever.
37:52
You're going to have to think about what your role looks like moving forward.
37:57
And I struggled with that because, yeah, your philosophy, Todd is is owner of Wow
38:01
is I want to grow this as big as I can, do as many shoots as we can.
38:05
And my approach to it was I still like
38:08
the creative side and I want to be out there doing the work.
38:11
So my approach to my business was more what Connor's is.
38:16
He started.
38:17
I hope Connor doesn't mind us sharing a lot of this,
38:21
Yeah, it’s gonna be tough to undelete
38:23
- Once it goes out on the interwebs, - we'll try and keep it somewhat.
38:27
We haven't given Connor's last name anyway.
38:29
He said I'm a solo real estate photographer running my own business.
38:32
At the moment.
38:32
I'm not looking to grow a huge team,
38:34
but envisioned building a small, close knit group of talented individuals.
38:39
So as I consider my first hire in particular
38:41
particularly interested in the hybrid role, similar to what Craig does.
38:44
So I got to that same point, and I did hire
38:47
one additional photographer to help me
38:50
with the growing number of shoots that I had that I, I couldn't handle.
38:54
I couldn't respond fast enough to the clients that I had built.
38:59
So I did bring on another photographer to help in, and
39:03
I had two different photographers. They did a great job.
39:07
But my philosophy was similar to Connor's is
39:10
I had to make a decision What type of business do I want to have?
39:14
And for me it was keeping the company smaller
39:18
and I stay involved with both the shoots and the,
39:22
you know, the development of the business
39:25
to a point.
39:27
But then taking care of the clients that I already had,
39:31
you know, especially in the off season, that's that's where I shifted.
39:34
My focus was reconnecting because I didn't like to take clients for granted.
39:39
And I felt like I was I wasn't.
39:41
But I felt like I was during the busy season
39:43
because I didn't have time to talk to them.
39:45
So you've got keep that that cycle going on.
39:48
Once things slow down, you you get back out there,
39:51
you have to get yourself back out there and and invite your clients out.
39:56
Go to their meetings, sponsor some events, things like that.
39:59
That's where you, you're able to keep that cycle going.
40:03
And it's a great way to build loyalty with your clients
40:07
because they, the realtors, they love that personal touch.
40:10
They like knowing that you are their photographer, right?
40:15
So it's all about philosophy.
40:18
And in determining what type of business do you want to build,
40:22
does that answer the question?
40:23
It did. It did. And it's so true.
40:25
I remember you started a business and again, I define a business
40:30
as a profitable enterprise that works without you.
40:33
That's not my definition.
40:34
That's the coach that I had in years past.
40:36
And I really I agree with that.
40:39
I still have that memorized.
40:41
And it's your business.
40:43
So that's the way he defined it, that it works without you.
40:47
He grew really, really big, like hundreds of millions,
40:49
Like he grew humongous businesses and that was his goal.
40:54
But if your goal is not that, I appreciate that.
40:57
I appreciate that you know what your goal is?
41:00
Just create a plan and stick to the plan.
41:02
And if it aligns, that's a word that we use a ton here.
41:05
And again, another coach use that a lot with me.
41:08
Like alignment is so important as you grow.
41:12
You have to make sure you're aligned.
41:14
You know, if you think about our bodies, if you are out of alignment,
41:17
you are not walking properly, you are in
41:20
pain, things are not functioning correctly.
41:23
It can lead to bigger pain and more permanent
41:29
injury if you're not in alignment with your body.
41:32
And the same is true with your business.
41:34
So again, that's one of the beautiful things about business is my business
41:39
doesn't have to be your business, Craig’s doesn't have to be yours.
41:42
Just make sure that you are comfortable with that
41:45
and don't strive to build my business if you don't want to do that.
41:49
We talked about this a little,
41:50
both goals at the beginning of year, but if you put a goal down because like,
41:53
Oh my friends are doing this, this seems greater,
41:55
it seems like a thing to do, but that's really not your goal.
41:59
You're going to get up at 5 a.m.
42:00
one day,
42:02
you're going to run around the block and then the next year you're like,
42:05
Oh, you're going to find an excuse and you're just going to fight it really hard.
42:09
And you realize, Hey, this is not really my goal.
42:11
I actually need to cross it off and I need to create a different goal.
42:15
All right, so let's dig
42:16
into another part of the question that that Connor had
42:20
and very practical question, how do you pay a hybrid role,
42:25
somebody that's doing the photography and the sales side?
42:28
Because a lot of times you're photographers,
42:30
you're paying per job or maybe per hour. salespeople.
42:34
A lot of times it's commission only or base plus commission.
42:37
So how do you set up how you pay
42:40
somebody to work in that kind of role?
42:43
Yeah, it's a great question.
42:45
I've tried it every way possible and I tried all the wrong ways first,
42:48
until we settled on what we feel is the right way.
42:54
And I.
42:55
Okay, just base plus commission just and pay them a base salary.
43:00
Pay them a commission and I would pay them a commission
43:03
of all of the revenue in their location, not just the revenue they bring in.
43:08
Not just the revenue they bring in for 12 months,
43:12
not just on new business.
43:13
We've tried all of those things.
43:15
We've tried split commissions, We tried tiers of commission.
43:18
Yes, you need to pay them a base salary
43:21
plus a commission on the entire market they're working in.
43:24
Give you a few examples of things that we went over the years.
43:28
And then I'm
43:28
you know, I'll just I'll let you guys email me if you have more questions.
43:31
And Craig, you might have some to add, but if you don't.
43:34
So your first question, Todd, why are you paying on the whole market?
43:38
So say you're going to bring an individual into your market,
43:41
the market that you've grown to this point,
43:44
Conner's got 25k a month coming in and I'm saying now pay him up
43:48
a percentage of that 25k that you worked hard for.
43:53
And why am I saying that?
43:54
Well, one, because it's going to be that individual's responsibility
43:58
to make sure that that 25k continues to come in.
44:01
So there's going to be relationship building.
44:04
Who are the VIPs?
44:06
Who are the people I need to go and build relationships.
44:08
Who's going to call me when they have a new order?
44:10
Because I've now built this relationship as the new contact with them.
44:15
There is going to be work involved on that 25K that you have already
44:19
and you want them to pay attention to it.
44:22
You want that new person to pay attention to it.
44:25
The other reason why you pay on the entire market is because
44:27
that 25k is going to grow.
44:30
And if you only pay based
44:33
on activity or ownership
44:36
for a sales term like who owns the account,
44:40
what's going to happen is these this person in
44:42
this hybrid role is going to go and do a brokerage presentation
44:45
or going to a group setting, or they're going to be at a vendor show
44:49
or they're going to be at an open house
44:50
or they're going to be somewhere else where there's multiple agents
44:54
and they are going to be focused on connecting
44:57
with those multiple agents, not logging in the CRM.
45:01
So for them, a typical sales process is if you talk to somebody,
45:06
you need to make sure they're in the CRM and you're on the owner
45:09
and then you would make any commission on that
45:12
on those individuals, Well, what's going to happen is just out of that
45:16
marketing and those connections that this new person is making for you,
45:21
there's going to be people that order that they never talked to you.
45:25
If there's 30 people or 100 people in a room
45:28
and this individual has 2 minutes on stage,
45:33
how are you going to tribute those sales?
45:36
There's no where are they going?
45:38
You know, there are some techniques.
45:39
Okay, text this code and all, you know, text.
45:42
It's up to this code to give me a business card.
45:46
You know, write down as many names as you can think of.
45:48
It just gets complicated, like Craig says.
45:50
So there's times that you need to you just need to pay them on everything
45:54
because they're not going to remember everybody.
45:55
They talk to you if they do, they're spending too much time in the CRM.
46:02
Okay, So it's important
46:04
to log items and to keep track of what they do, but not to the extent
46:08
that it's every single conversation, every single call.
46:12
And also third and finally, this person is going
46:15
to build relationships with clients, and those clients
46:18
are going to have a good relationship with this person
46:21
and those clients are going to refer that person now.
46:25
And this is the cool thing.
46:26
They're not referring you directly.
46:29
They're not referring your company.
46:30
They are indirectly, but they're because they have
46:33
a relationship with this new individual, they like this person.
46:37
There's a relationship.
46:38
They connect, they they go to the same church,
46:40
they go to the same high school, or they went to the same high school,
46:43
whatever it may be.
46:44
They have raving fans
46:47
and those clients are going to refer their close
46:52
circle of people.
46:53
And there's no way to attribute that at all
46:57
because it's not always going to be attached to a referral code
47:01
So that is why I would pay a base plus a commission.
47:05
And those figures I get asked this all the time about what those figures
47:09
should be, and it's impossible for me to give you an answer.
47:14
You need to make sure that you understand
47:16
what a living wages and your part of the country in the world.
47:20
And then you need to understand
47:21
how much revenue is in the city that they're coming into,
47:25
Right?
47:25
So right now, you know, let's just take the math of of 25k a month.
47:30
If you pay them
47:34
10% commission on that.
47:37
Okay, That's $2,500.
47:40
If you pay them 5% commission,
47:44
that's 1250 dollars.
47:46
Okay.
47:46
So say you're going to pay them 5%, $1250 of that and
47:55
you're going to pay them that over the course of a year.
47:58
Well, 1250 times 12 is what, about 15
48:01
16k.
48:02
And who in America is living off of 16K?
48:07
So you can't give them a base at 20k
48:10
20 plus 15 is 35K You can go make more than that.
48:14
Arby's Yeah.
48:18
So that's just a simple example of you got to make sure that what you're
48:22
sending them into that can be successful and they can see how they can scale.
48:26
Yeah, Now that's my side.
48:27
Craig Give you you have I'm sure you have great perspective from your side.
48:32
There's really not a whole lot for me to add to it
48:34
because on the receiving end, yeah, I have a family to take care of.
48:40
I need some consistent income.
48:42
And let's face it, there are there are market forces
48:46
I can't control even as the business development person.
48:50
Now we've talked about this in past episodes,
48:53
a great measurement tool to see see how you're doing is market share.
48:58
Yes. Okay.
48:59
So my number of listings is actually down this year
49:01
compared to what I've done in the past and what the company has done in the past,
49:05
although I think we're up
49:08
year over year from last year.
49:09
So we're making gains.
49:13
But if if your market tanks in terms of new listings
49:17
and we get numbers from our local MLS board,
49:20
I can see how many listings there are for this particular month
49:24
compared to last year, you know, say June or July of 2023.
49:29
So we can look at the market share and I've been down on myself
49:33
because I'm not getting
49:34
the number of shoots I'd like to get or the number of new clients or whatever.
49:39
And Steve, Steve has been so kind.
49:41
He's like, Craig But look at your market share.
49:44
It's it's it's inching forward now.
49:46
It's not going up as fast as some of our other markets.
49:49
But again, that's attributable to the fact that I'm a hybrid role
49:54
and during busy season I can't sell as much.
49:57
So as long as that market share number is continuing to go up,
50:01
your hybrid role is doing they're doing the job that they need to be
50:06
in and you need just keep that in perspective.
50:09
So the base plus commission works well for me because I've got a solid base
50:13
that I can I can rely rely on to take care of my family.
50:17
But that commission there's a competitive part of me is as a salesperson,
50:22
I want to try and earn
50:24
as much commission as I can, and it's set up really well.
50:28
The way we have
50:28
it set up is I get that commission, but then I also have a stretch goal
50:31
each month.
50:32
If I can get a certain number of dollars into our number of shoots,
50:37
there's a little bit of a bonus.
50:38
So you want to build that in.
50:40
It keeps me hungry, right as a sales person, keeps me motivated
50:44
and out there to continue to do the best that I can.
50:48
But I don't have to fret month to month on.
50:53
am I going be able to feed my family this month?
50:55
So yeah, it works for me, you know, and I appreciate that Wow was willing to set
51:00
up, you know, my compensation in a very fair way.
51:05
Take care of your people and they'll work hard for you.
51:08
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true, Craig.
51:11
And we screwed it up on a lot of others before you,
51:14
so I'm glad by the time we had time to work it out.
51:18
Yeah.
51:19
By the time our pass connected again.
51:21
So, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there.
51:23
Oh, my goodness.
51:24
There's.
51:24
There's probably ten podcast of theory and things we've tried in there
51:29
and why we do it and what is a stretch goal.
51:31
We haven't gotten to that yet. And the theory behind a stretch goal,
51:35
if you're
51:35
like, you know, it's just give them a bonus to hit that works.
51:38
Good for you and good for them on a monthly or quarterly level.
51:42
But I guess we'll just leave it at that because there's one more point
51:45
I want to wrap up to him. We're going along today, so thanks for staying with us.
51:48
This is probably like three days of driving for y'all out there.
51:52
But finally he gives
51:55
a one more sentence in here I want to read.
51:58
And why can't I find it at this point?
52:01
Okay. Okay.
52:02
So understanding the specifics for this hybrid will be incredibly helpful
52:06
as I plan for my first hire.
52:08
And then he says, I'm keen on setting
52:11
an amazing friend,
52:15
setting up an amazing friend for success
52:17
and ensuring he can thrive both professionally and financially.
52:21
What a great motivation.
52:22
- Oh, I mean that is - kudos to you, Connor.
52:25
the character to want to say
52:27
That is incredible and that is fabulous.
52:30
And that is what being a good owner is, is is thinking of your people
52:36
first and making sure that they can be successful.
52:39
When they're successful, you're successful.
52:41
The one thing I want to just point out here, there's there's one word in here,
52:45
the two words, one describing the other word. But
52:49
I think he has someone in mind.
52:51
He calls them this amazing friend.
52:54
Now, I don't know if this is someone that you already know.
52:58
So this is a current, amazing friend of yours.
53:01
Or if you just want to find someone that you feel is going to grow into kind
53:04
of that friend type of relationship with you
53:07
because you want to stay small next and have this type of service.
53:12
I've done both and I have hired some of my amazing friends.
53:16
I've hired family members, I have hired people.
53:19
I have no clue who they are.
53:21
And I've done everything in between.
53:25
It can work.
53:27
It can be somewhat
53:29
of a liability or dangerous as well.
53:33
So remember, if this person is currently one of your amazing friends
53:38
and you get along really well
53:40
with them and you guys just know each other
53:43
and they know about your business just because they're friends.
53:47
So the onboarding will be quicker and you can trust them, which is important.
53:52
You now when you cross over to this business owner
53:57
and they are an employee of yours,
54:00
you're just now wagering up,
54:03
if you will, your friendship That needs to continue.
54:08
And you're don't always assume that because it's amazing friendship
54:12
that it will always be amazing as the boss
54:17
and direct report relationship.
54:22
Yeah that's critical it's hard
54:27
the relationship changes when it when it goes
54:30
into business and employment.
54:34
Just a personal example.
54:38
When I sold my book of business
54:40
to Wow, I went to work for my church
54:43
as our director of production and communication.
54:45
I saw a need there and our lead pastor had actually twice
54:50
tried to recruit me to that role, and I had said no a couple of times.
54:55
And going into that, my my pastor was my pastor.
54:58
He's like my spiritual covering. He was a friend.
55:01
You know, He cared about me.
55:03
He cared about my family.
55:05
And I didn't think even though even though my wife kind of warned me about this,
55:09
I didn't think about the fact that the relationship would change.
55:13
Once he was my employer,
55:15
I was on the volunteer team for the media team
55:18
beforehand and had a great relationship with him.
55:23
I'm not technically an employee,
55:25
but once I was and it's
55:28
this is not to denigrate or put down my pastor
55:34
because he didn't do anything wrong, but the relationship changed.
55:36
I now was being paid and I had expectations I had to fulfill
55:40
in the role that he hired me for.
55:43
That's a different dynamic than our friendship.
55:45
It's total different not to say it can't work.
55:49
You just have to go in, both of you, knowing that that's going to change.
55:55
And yeah, like Todd, I would encourage anyone
55:58
considering that I have a very open and honest discussion
56:02
because you don't want to lose the friend right
56:06
You don't want to lose the friend.
56:08
Yeah, very well said, Craig,
56:10
very well said.
56:11
Just nothing to add.
56:13
But please just listen to what Craig said because it'll be easy for you to hire
56:17
your friend because you trust him right now and you go along well with them.
56:20
But yeah, just think about that relationship.
56:23
Yeah.
56:25
Good deal.
56:26
We got we got a lot covered there, Todd.
56:28
Well, there was a lot in there.
56:30
If you're still with us, thanks for sticking with us.
56:31
If you have follow up questions, ask us this all make sense in our heads.
56:36
But sometimes when you need to clarify.
56:38
So we're happy to do so.
56:40
And again, we're happy to share with you the 20 years that we have tried
56:44
this many different ways.
56:45
Just about everything in the market.
56:47
Many different ways.
56:48
All right.
56:49
Well, that's going to do it for another week of the Spiro podcast.
56:53
Again, we just can't tell you enough
56:55
how much we appreciate you watching or listening each and every week.
57:00
There's other
57:01
great podcasts out there we know you could be listening to.
57:04
So thank you for taking the time to listen to or watch us and we do appreciate you.
57:09
Again, if you have a question or comments, feedback, email us.
57:13
hello@spiro.media.
57:15
Feel free to leave a comment on the YouTube channel as well.
57:18
We do try and keep up with those, but we're busy out,
57:21
you know, shooting and running the business as well.
57:24
But yeah, just thank you for everything.
57:28
Todd any final closing thoughts
57:31
where you focus your
57:32
your time, that's what you become and that's what we'll expand.
57:36
Yeah, I just I keep crossing
57:39
variations of that quote a lot, so just be cognizant.
57:43
You know, Craig mentioned that we're busy and time and by the way,
57:46
I'm reading this book that he suggested the ruthless elimination of hurry.
57:51
If you don't have it, please get it. Read it.
57:53
But where you put your time, that's what will expand and grow.
57:59
But that's what you become at the same time.
58:02
All right.
58:03
Well, that's going to wrap it up, guys.
58:04
Make sure you take some time. Slow down a little bit.
58:07
Even though it's busy season slowdown, be thankful for the blessings in your life.
58:11
Make sure you take a breath.
58:12
Have a great week.
58:13
Thank you for joining us for the Spiro podcast,
58:16
managing your real estate photography and videography business.
58:20
This is a production of Spiro and wow video tours.
58:24
You can find out more about Spiro
58:26
is real estate, media, business management software at our Web site.
58:30
Spiro.media.