Transcript

Sharri | 15 September · Sharri

0:06
Speaker 1: Thanks, James. Good evening.
0:07
Speaker 2: Tonight, New South Wales Premier Chris Minns warns that Australia
0:11
Speaker 2: could end up with a terror problem like France. And
0:15
Speaker 2: John Howard declares not all cultures are equal. Our exclusive
0:20
Speaker 2: coming up. Pauline Hanson says sorry for offensive comments unearthed
0:24
Speaker 2: by Labor. But now the Albanese government has a taste
0:27
Speaker 2: of its own medicine with a scandal over Rhys Muldoon's
0:31
Speaker 2: sexist remarks. One Nation's New South Wales leader will join
0:34
Speaker 2: us live. And the backlash against Sydney Sweeney over her
0:38
Speaker 2: racy ads, I'll speak about that with Ben English.
0:41
Speaker 1: Plus, our book is out today.
0:44
Speaker 2: I'm going to get a review live from Virginia Marr,
0:47
Speaker 2: the wife of Peter.
0:49
Speaker 1: That's the photographer whose beautiful images.
0:51
Speaker 2: Of Bondi live on, even after he lost his life.
0:56
Speaker 2: But first, New South Wales Premier Chris Mintz has warned
1:00
Speaker 2: that Australia could end up with a terror problem like
1:03
Speaker 2: France if extremism isn't dealt with. And former Prime Minister
1:08
Speaker 2: John Howard has spoken about the failings of multiculturalism, declaring
1:13
Speaker 2: in his view not all cultures are equal. He says
1:17
Speaker 2: cultures that don't treat women or Jews properly are not
1:22
Speaker 2: equal to ours. While former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson
1:27
Speaker 2: has issued an urgent warning for Australian politicians not to
1:32
Speaker 2: indulge the irrational hatred of activists.
1:35
Speaker 1: Because it'll lead to disaster.
1:37
Speaker 2: These are pretty brutally honest remarks in interviews for our book,
1:42
Speaker 2: Bondi Terror, that's out today.
1:45
Speaker 1: For the final chapter of our book, The.
1:47
Speaker 2: Road Forward, Alex Rivchin and I interviewed leaders about how
1:52
Speaker 2: to confront the terror threat and the anti-Semitism crisis and
1:56
Speaker 2: what needs to be done to stop extremism from further
2:00
Speaker 2: taking hold in our nation. Is it a simple case
2:04
Speaker 2: of immigration or is it more complex than that? John
2:09
Speaker 2: Howard was one such figure we turn to. He successfully
2:13
Speaker 2: led Australia after the Port Arthur massacre and during the
2:17
Speaker 2: threat of.
2:18
Speaker 1: Terror after 9-11.
2:20
Speaker 2: He's a strong conservative vicar and he's watched on aghast
2:26
Speaker 2: at what's unfolded over these past few years. So Alex
2:30
Speaker 2: and I went to see him. And we asked him
2:34
Speaker 2: about the question of migration. And John Howard told us
2:38
Speaker 2: that not all cultures are equal. Have a listen to
2:41
Speaker 2: what he had to say.
2:43
Speaker 3: I believe in assimilation. I don't like multiculturalism. I think
2:47
Speaker 3: it was a mistake. I think multiculturalism was devised for
2:52
Speaker 3: political purposes by Al Grasby and Gough Whitlam. Look, All
3:00
Speaker 3: cultures are not the same. They're not equal.
3:02
Speaker 4: I don't think that.
3:03
Speaker 3: I mean, I think our culture, which is more open...
3:06
Speaker 3: I mean, how can you compare our culture with a
3:09
Speaker 3: culture that doesn't treat men and women equally? If you
3:13
Speaker 3: don't treat men and women equally, how can you possibly
3:18
Speaker 3: treat Jews and Christians and Muslims equally? embracing the concept
3:24
Speaker 3: of multiculturalism, because that implies... Firstly, that the only way
3:32
Speaker 3: you can absorb high levels of immigration is to recognise
3:40
Speaker 3: that everybody has a separate culture and that all cultures
3:44
Speaker 3: are equal, and they're not. I mean, I just do
3:47
Speaker 3: not accept that a culture that treats women less than men,
3:53
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a good example, it's not the only one,
3:56
Speaker 3: is the same as ours. I mean, ours is not perfect, but...
4:00
Speaker 3: We do accept the equality of men and women.
4:09
Speaker 2: The former Prime Minister spoke of the need to return
4:13
Speaker 2: to Australian values and to ensure those coming to our
4:16
Speaker 2: country are properly integrated into society.
4:19
Speaker 3: I just think that integration and assimilation worked. And I
4:25
Speaker 3: couldn't quite see why we had to turn it on
4:27
Speaker 3: its head. And I worried that we'd create a federation
4:31
Speaker 3: of tribes. I don't think we talk enough about Australian values.
4:35
Speaker 3: I think we get shy.
4:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, we certainly do. And Howard also said he was
4:41
Speaker 2: most concerned by the failure of leadership of the Prime Minister,
4:45
Speaker 2: Anthony Albanese, after October 7. And he also spoke about
4:49
Speaker 2: the way leaders equated anti-Semitism with Islamophobia. Now John Howard
4:55
Speaker 2: said he couldn't categorically say that Bondi wouldn't have happened
4:59
Speaker 2: had there been proper leadership, but.
5:01
Speaker 1: He left the question open.
5:04
Speaker 2: Now the role of political leadership emerged in another interview
5:07
Speaker 2: we did as well.
5:10
Speaker 5: Leadership.
5:11
Speaker 2: Former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said, is critical in
5:14
Speaker 2: either precipitating.
5:15
Speaker 1: A crisis or leading the recovery.
5:17
Speaker 2: Here's what former British PM Boris Johnson told Alex and I.
5:21
Speaker 2: He said it was a mistake to allow repeated demonstrations
5:25
Speaker 2: and I think that the virus of anti-Semitism, which is
5:28
Speaker 2: endemic in the human race, is now out again and
5:32
Speaker 2: that virus has been potentiated by the weakness of Western politicians.
5:38
Speaker 2: And he had a warning for our politicians in Australia.
5:41
Speaker 1: He said, do not indulge this prejudice.
5:44
Speaker 2: Do not indulge this, this type of irrational hatred.
5:48
Speaker 1: Because it will lead to disaster.
5:52
Speaker 2: And so, yes, Alex and I did those interviews for
5:55
Speaker 2: our book, Bondi Terror.
5:57
Speaker 1: It's out today.
5:58
Speaker 2: When we sat down with New South Wales Premier Chris
6:01
Speaker 2: Minns for the book, we asked about his view on
6:03
Speaker 2: multiculturalism as well. It was coming up in several interviews. Now,
6:07
Speaker 2: the Premier said he thought deeply about this. He said
6:11
Speaker 2: he felt there needed to be more emphasis when it
6:14
Speaker 2: comes to multiculturalism on the values that are uniquely characteristic
6:18
Speaker 2: to Australia and not so much of a focus on
6:21
Speaker 2: what divides us. He said the only way that this
6:24
Speaker 2: can work is if we all from our different backgrounds
6:28
Speaker 2: sign up to a common set of characteristics.
6:32
Speaker 1: And he said that this requires courage and time. Here
6:35
Speaker 1: he was.
6:37
Speaker 4: The only way countries work is if you've got clear,
6:41
Speaker 4: unambiguous characteristics that everybody has to sign up to. And
6:45
Speaker 4: my sense of multiculturalism is, yeah, we can have people
6:48
Speaker 4: from many cultures and whatever else, but there's some non-negotiables
6:53
Speaker 4: that are part of the Australian experience. And if you
6:56
Speaker 4: don't have them, then all you have is difference.
6:59
Speaker 1: Non-negotiables, he said.
7:01
Speaker 2: And Minns then articulated some of those Australian values, those non-negotiables,
7:06
Speaker 2: that he says all cultures need to abide by or
7:09
Speaker 2: sign up to for our nation to work.
7:12
Speaker 4: You know, democracy, respect for women, respect for modern, liberal,
7:22
Speaker 4: democratic ideals that have built Australia should be unambiguously part
7:26
Speaker 4: of the nation state. And if you're not part of those, then, yeah,
7:33
Speaker 4: you're antithetical to the Australian experience.
7:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, hard to argue with any of that.
7:40
Speaker 2: In terms of confronting the terror threat, Premier Chris Min
7:43
Speaker 2: said that it was about having strong laws, but also
7:47
Speaker 2: about enforcing them. Now, I've already told you about his
7:50
Speaker 2: comments where he admits he didn't get this perfectly right,
7:53
Speaker 2: that he made mistakes. But looking forward, Chris Min says
7:57
Speaker 2: sometimes strong leadership is required and sometimes it's tough laws.
8:03
Speaker 4: The only option, sometimes it's legal, you know, like banning
8:07
Speaker 4: the phrases like globalise the intifada. Sometimes it's civic leadership
8:11
Speaker 4: saying we're not going to tolerate this and you will
8:13
Speaker 4: be ostracised from our community if you do behave like this.
8:18
Speaker 4: And that can be business leaders, it can be community
8:21
Speaker 4: leaders or charitable leaders and politicians. What I'm saying is
8:24
Speaker 4: sometimes it's legal, sometimes it's rhetorical. But we have to
8:28
Speaker 4: confront it where we see it.
8:31
Speaker 1: But then there was this.
8:32
Speaker 2: Chris Minns gave a dire warning for where our nation
8:35
Speaker 2: could head if we don't take action as a society
8:38
Speaker 2: and at all levels. He referred to the radicalism that's
8:42
Speaker 2: taken hold in France as an example. Have a listen
8:45
Speaker 2: to his very strong warning.
8:48
Speaker 4: Because I don't think that letting the steam out of
8:51
Speaker 4: the kettle is analogy is working I think what it
8:56
Speaker 4: leads to is situations like you've got in I don't
8:59
Speaker 4: want to say like passive communities but communities like in
9:02
Speaker 4: France where it builds it doesn't dissipate and evaporate into
9:08
Speaker 4: the air what it does is build and you know
9:12
Speaker 4: a few terrorist slogans and then some terrorist flags and
9:15
Speaker 4: then a terrorist organisation or an affiliated organisation that has
9:19
Speaker 4: sympathy for terrorist organisations We're heading in a single trajectory
9:23
Speaker 4: and that is for.
9:24
Speaker 6: Worse and worse and worse.
9:27
Speaker 1: Look, those are.
9:27
Speaker 2: Really strong words, really a warning to all of us.
9:31
Speaker 2: And he's right to be worried because listen to how
9:35
Speaker 2: many terror plots ASIO has foiled since Bondi. Here's the
9:40
Speaker 2: ASIO Director-General, Mike Burgess.
9:44
Speaker 7: Since Bondi, my agency and the police have have prevented, well,
9:51
Speaker 7: so things not actively in plan, but activities of individuals
9:54
Speaker 7: that could have led to an attack, 16 of those
9:56
Speaker 7: events have been stopped by the Police and Security Service
9:58
Speaker 7: since Bondi.
10:01
Speaker 2: He did that interview with Neil Mitchell, the radio host
10:04
Speaker 2: who now has a podcast. Neil kindly gave me those
10:07
Speaker 2: comments today. We're going to have more of that interview
10:10
Speaker 2: on Thursday night's show. And Neil Mitchell is going to
10:12
Speaker 2: be on the show on Thursday night as well. But
10:14
Speaker 2: what Mike Burgess just said then, 16 events since Bondi.
10:19
Speaker 2: that they've foiled, 16 terror threats that they've foiled since Bondi.
10:23
Speaker 1: Just nine months ago. That's extraordinary.
10:27
Speaker 2: And although we've investigated the failings of agencies in our
10:31
Speaker 2: book and, you know, we do expose them in a
10:33
Speaker 2: couple of chapters, I mean, we are very grateful to police,
10:37
Speaker 2: law enforcement and intelligence agencies for foiling attacks like this,
10:41
Speaker 2: for doing everything they can to keep Australians safe. Because
10:46
Speaker 2: the truth is... They are up against a dangerous ideology.
10:52
Speaker 2: We all may think Bondi has been a wake-up call,
10:54
Speaker 2: but perhaps it wasn't as much of a shock as
10:57
Speaker 2: we think. Perhaps the issue of radicalisation runs even deeper
11:04
Speaker 2: than we realise. I'm going to return to that topic
11:11
Speaker 2: a bit later. I'm also going to have, as I said,
11:14
Speaker 2: the late Peter Maher's wife, Virginia, on the program shortly,
11:18
Speaker 2: just minutes away. But let's have a look at the
11:21
Speaker 2: latest with One Nation, the other big news today. And
11:24
Speaker 2: today is the first time that Pauline Hanson walked away
11:27
Speaker 2: from controversial comments. The fact she did so means that
11:31
Speaker 2: she realised she defended Australians with her description of Indigenous
11:36
Speaker 2: Aussies as the most primitive race on earth. It's a
11:40
Speaker 2: welcome move that Pauline expressed regret. Voters like it when
11:45
Speaker 2: politicians are prepared to admit that they get something wrong. Now,
11:49
Speaker 2: as a reminder, here were her original comments that caused
11:52
Speaker 2: such a storm and led to her apology of sorts today.
11:58
Speaker 2: What the hell have they done in this country?
12:00
Speaker 6: For, you know, supposedly 60,000 years, they'd never invented the wheel.
12:05
Speaker 6: There was nothing there. What are we actually holding up?
12:09
Speaker 1: A few, you know, rock paintings?
12:12
Speaker 2: Sorry.
12:12
Speaker 6: They're the most primitive race on earth.
12:17
Speaker 2: Now, after those remarks emerged publicly, Jacinta Nampajimpa Price and
12:22
Speaker 2: James Patterson said this of Pauline's remarks.
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Speaker 8: It is about recognising us as human beings. And the
12:30
Speaker 8: form in which she used those words, the most primitive
12:33
Speaker 8: race on earth, speaks directly to race. That's what it
12:39
Speaker 8: speaks directly to. She didn't say primitive culture. She said
12:42
Speaker 8: primitive race.
12:44
Speaker 9: Culture and race are very different things. You can be
12:48
Speaker 9: critical of cultural practices without saying there's something deficient about
12:51
Speaker 9: someone's race.
12:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was James on my show last night, Jacinta
12:56
Speaker 2: on Paul Murray's. And Jacinta is a friend of Pauline,
12:59
Speaker 2: so the comments were particularly significant. And so today, sitting
13:03
Speaker 2: down with Kieran Gilbert, Pauline Hanson walked back her comments.
13:08
Speaker 6: Look, Kieran, I've always put my foot in my mouth
13:11
Speaker 6: and why I come out and say things. I'm not
13:13
Speaker 6: the most eloquent speaker in how I deliver something, what
13:16
Speaker 6: I say.
13:16
Speaker 2: I mean, not quite an apology, but definitely an admission
13:21
Speaker 2: that she got it wrong. As you heard, she said
13:23
Speaker 2: she often puts her foot in her mouth, so hopefully
13:26
Speaker 2: she'll be more ready to own up to mistakes in
13:28
Speaker 2: the future. She also expressed regret that Albanese was offended
13:33
Speaker 2: by her comments about his dead mother.
13:36
Speaker 6: I raised a comment with regards to housing commission. My
13:40
Speaker 6: comments weren't distasteful towards Anthony Albanese's mother. I don't think
13:46
Speaker 6: my comments were derogatory towards his mother at all. I
13:50
Speaker 6: was referring to housing commission.
13:52
Speaker 1: At that time.
13:53
Speaker 6: So if he's taken offence to it, well, I'm sorry
13:55
Speaker 6: for that.
13:57
Speaker 2: But in the interview with Kieran Gilbert, Pauline Hanson also
14:00
Speaker 2: quite bizarrely blamed James Patterson and Liberal politician Tim Wilson
14:06
Speaker 2: for the fact that these podcast comments were released. Now,
14:10
Speaker 2: the Indigenous remarks were made last September, the ones about
14:13
Speaker 2: Albanese's mother just earlier this year.
14:16
Speaker 1: But Kieran Gilbert.
14:18
Speaker 2: It seems he knew who told his colleague about Hanson's
14:21
Speaker 2: comments about Indigenous Australians and Kieran told Pauline that it
14:25
Speaker 2: wasn't James Patterson or Tim Wilson. Have a look.
14:29
Speaker 6: I'll tell you what, I wish that Tim Wilson and
14:32
Speaker 6: James Patterson would actually listen to me and stop this infighting.
14:35
Speaker 6: I think they're dragging this out. You know, this whole
14:38
Speaker 6: thing with Indigenous was a year ago, the podcast. Everything
14:41
Speaker 6: they're dragging out now is to take the focus off
14:44
Speaker 6: the immigration policy or.
14:46
Speaker 10: They, just incidentally, those two didn't provide that comment to
14:51
Speaker 10: my colleague, I know that for sure.
14:54
Speaker 2: Now, as far as I know, and I should know,
14:57
Speaker 2: there's only one political party that has a decent dirt
14:59
Speaker 2: unit and that's Labor. So you can assume this has
15:03
Speaker 2: been dug up by the Albanese government's researchers. It doesn't
15:07
Speaker 2: make the comments any less offensive or any less worthy
15:10
Speaker 2: of reporting on. And it's great, I'll say it again,
15:13
Speaker 2: great that Hanson today owned up to them. And I'm
15:16
Speaker 2: sure many of her fan base will hold her in
15:18
Speaker 2: even higher esteem because of her frank and honest admission
15:22
Speaker 2: that in this instance, she got it wrong.
15:30
Speaker 1: We'll come back to.
15:31
Speaker 2: That in a moment with One Nation's New South Wales leader.
15:34
Speaker 2: He's going to be live on the show shortly. We're
15:37
Speaker 2: returning to our book and one of the stories we
15:39
Speaker 2: tell in it is that of Peter Marr, the retired
15:43
Speaker 2: New South Wales detective sergeant who tragically was one of
15:46
Speaker 2: the 15 innocent.
15:48
Speaker 1: People shot dead at Bondi.
15:51
Speaker 2: Here's a bit of Peter's story from our documentary. Amir
15:56
Speaker 2: Glazer ran a photo stall at the Hanukkah event that day.
16:00
Speaker 2: His photographer, Peter Ma, was tragically also killed.
16:09
Speaker 11: He was.
16:10
Speaker 5: A very humble person, very patient with all the people
16:16
Speaker 5: that he took photos of. He was really kind. So
16:20
Speaker 5: he was walking around everyone and just looking for best
16:25
Speaker 5: moments to capture.
16:27
Speaker 2: Peter Ma had spent his life as a police detective.
16:31
Speaker 2: From beyond the grave, Peter's time-stamped photographs would help piece
16:37
Speaker 2: together the final minutes before the massacre. You can see
16:41
Speaker 2: that he'd moved over to the area where the bubbles were.
16:46
Speaker 2: There's Matilda.
16:52
Speaker 5: For some reason, Peter kept taking photos of Matilda. It
17:02
Speaker 5: felt like Peter knew it's happening and he just kept
17:05
Speaker 5: capturing photos of Matilda. And they both were killed. few
17:10
Speaker 5: minutes after that moment.
17:14
Speaker 2: And joining me now is Peter's wife, Virginia Marr.
17:17
Speaker 1: Virginia, welcome.
17:18
Speaker 12: Thanks for having me.
17:20
Speaker 2: Looking at that clip, it must be so hard for you,
17:23
Speaker 2: and thank you for being here. Looking at that clip
17:26
Speaker 2: and how your husband, your late husband, was taking those
17:28
Speaker 2: beautiful photographs of Matilda and Do you think he must
17:31
Speaker 2: have been smiling and captivated by her?
17:34
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
17:35
Speaker 11: He would take many, many photos in a day, like
17:40
Speaker 11: a four-hour day of taking photographs. He'd take, say, 1,200 photographs.
17:47
Speaker 1: And he loved it.
17:48
Speaker 11: He absolutely loved it. And it was very unusual for
17:50
Speaker 11: him to work three days in a row. But he
17:53
Speaker 11: most definitely would have been smiling the whole time.
17:56
Speaker 2: I mean, you just said that comment and it reminded
17:58
Speaker 2: me of something you told me for the book, that
18:00
Speaker 2: it was unusual for him to work three days in
18:02
Speaker 2: a row because he was retired. You were thinking about
18:04
Speaker 2: going to the festival with him, but you thought he's
18:07
Speaker 2: so reliable, he's going to be home at a certain time,
18:10
Speaker 2: so you'll just do.
18:10
Speaker 1: A bit of housework.
18:11
Speaker 11: Absolutely. And he even said to me that morning, oh,
18:14
Speaker 11: you're up early. And I said, well, I've got a
18:16
Speaker 11: lot of housework to do. We have a three-storey house.
18:18
Speaker 11: And I was going to go to the park. It
18:21
Speaker 11: was a beautiful Sunday afternoon.
18:22
Speaker 1: It was sunny.
18:24
Speaker 11: And because he was doing an afternoon job, I would
18:27
Speaker 11: have to walk the dog, his dog. And I thought
18:31
Speaker 11: it would be a perfect opportunity to take her down
18:32
Speaker 11: the beach. She'd love to have a socialise. And I
18:35
Speaker 11: could catch up with him and maybe some familiar faces.
18:37
Speaker 11: And I didn't end up making it. And did my
18:40
Speaker 11: usual routine of putting the dinner on and starting preparations
18:43
Speaker 11: for our evening.
18:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it all changed. Your life completely changed.
18:48
Speaker 2: Peter was a police detective, as we just said, and
18:52
Speaker 2: it is quite amazing how his photographs have helped piece
18:56
Speaker 2: together where people were, where victims were.
18:59
Speaker 11: Absolutely. And even in the last photographs that he took,
19:04
Speaker 11: the ones that were in the camera that was not
19:06
Speaker 11: recovered from the crime scene and returned, There was photos of,
19:11
Speaker 11: I mean, you can see them in the background, standing
19:13
Speaker 11: and chatting, people who were shot down beside him. And
19:19
Speaker 11: from your documentary, I saw there was a little triangle
19:22
Speaker 11: of three people that didn't make it home that day.
19:26
Speaker 11: And Peter was one of them. So, you know, those
19:29
Speaker 11: last photos that he took, you could see them being average,
19:32
Speaker 11: ordinary people on a Sunday afternoon, socialising and chatting and
19:36
Speaker 11: enjoying the festival.
19:39
Speaker 2: In the interview for our book, you describe Peter as
19:41
Speaker 2: a good Catholic boy. But then you reveal something very
19:47
Speaker 2: deeply personal.
19:50
Speaker 1: As a result of what happened to your husband at Hanukkah.
19:53
Speaker 2: Yes.
19:53
Speaker 11: So I had been thinking about it for quite some time.
19:57
Speaker 11: And I remember when Peter did his ancestry DNA test
20:01
Speaker 11: and that it came back with 33% Ashkenazi Jew And
20:05
Speaker 11: I'd started working at a community Chabad school in Sydney
20:09
Speaker 11: in June 2017, just six and a half months after
20:12
Speaker 11: we got married. And it was when I started working
20:14
Speaker 11: there that Peter's cousin said, oh, you do know Peter's Jewish.
20:19
Speaker 11: His grandmother was a Cohen. And I didn't know that.
20:22
Speaker 11: But with the events of December, my contemplation from 2017
20:29
Speaker 11: onwards was solidified. And I made the decision in February
20:34
Speaker 11: that I would leave start the journey to conversion.
20:37
Speaker 1: It's incredible. It's really beautiful.
20:40
Speaker 11: Well, as I quoted to somebody only last week, you know,
20:45
Speaker 11: it takes a strong woman to stand up for herself,
20:47
Speaker 11: but a stronger one to stand up for others.
20:48
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's so amazing that you feel
20:52
Speaker 2: so strongly about what happened to Peter at Bondi and
20:57
Speaker 2: not just Peter, but all.
20:59
Speaker 11: 14 others and everyone that was injured and a culture...
21:05
Speaker 11: A global community that was impacted.
21:08
Speaker 2: And this is your way to show solidarity.
21:10
Speaker 11: This is my way of honouring him, them. I may
21:14
Speaker 11: not have taken his name legally when we got married,
21:17
Speaker 11: but what ran through his blood and in his history
21:22
Speaker 11: is undeniable. And it should be celebrated and honoured.
21:27
Speaker 2: Virginia, you're amazing.
21:28
Speaker 1: You really are. You're amazing.
21:30
Speaker 11: They were all amazing people.
21:32
Speaker 2: They were. And I've tried to tell their stories. as
21:35
Speaker 2: best as I can with Alex, of course, in the book.
21:39
Speaker 2: You're up to chapter, you nearly finished the book?
21:41
Speaker 11: 23.
21:42
Speaker 2: Up to chapter 23.
21:43
Speaker 1: So is that, I think, the second last chapter?
21:45
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm too nervous to ask you
21:47
Speaker 2: live on air.
21:47
Speaker 1: What do you think?
21:48
Speaker 11: Oh, I love it.
21:49
Speaker 1: It's when I, it.
21:52
Speaker 11: Takes a special book for me to describe it as unputdownable.
21:57
Speaker 11: And this has been one of those in the last
21:58
Speaker 11: 48 hours for me. And I gladly bought it, a
22:02
Speaker 11: copy of it for one of my neighbours who's Jewish.
22:06
Speaker 11: And she said it made her day because she knew
22:08
Speaker 11: it wasn't out until today. And this was last Friday.
22:12
Speaker 11: I took it to her because I went to the
22:14
Speaker 11: book launch. It is a very poignant and succinct account
22:20
Speaker 11: of lead up event and possibilities going forward. But for me,
22:26
Speaker 11: the highlight is the echo of Rabbi Ullman's beautiful, beautiful words.
22:32
Speaker 1: Virginia, thank you. Thank you so much.
22:33
Speaker 2: I'll give you a hug after the ad break.
22:35
Speaker 1: Thank you.
22:36
Speaker 11: He's a gift of a human and he's given us
22:40
Speaker 11: a solid example, which his son-in-law did and many others.
22:46
Speaker 11: of being good people.
22:47
Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed. We have a lot to aspire to by
22:50
Speaker 2: their example that they leave behind in their legacy. Thank you, Virginia, so.
22:53
Speaker 1: Much for being here. Thank you.
22:55
Speaker 2: Very special. So, Nat, such a beautiful story, such an incredible,
23:00
Speaker 2: courageous woman, inner strength, remarkable. All right, let's bring in
23:05
Speaker 2: our panel now. New South Wales One Nation leader, Mike Newman,
23:09
Speaker 2: and former Labor State Secretary, Cameron Milner. Welcome to you both.
23:14
Speaker 2: A bit of a change of pace now. It's hard
23:16
Speaker 2: coming off that. Mike, you initially dismissed your leader, One
23:20
Speaker 2: Nation's comments. You described the backlash as confected outrage.
23:25
Speaker 1: Do you think she shouldn't have apologised?
23:28
Speaker 12: Well, look, I don't speak for Pauline. She spoke for
23:31
Speaker 12: herself and she did make that apology. Now, my point
23:33
Speaker 12: is that the media, whether it's Mr Albanese with respect
23:38
Speaker 12: to housing or whether it's Mr Hastie with regards to
23:41
Speaker 12: a cartoon, It seems that people are going back in
23:44
Speaker 12: history to look for things to cover up the fact
23:46
Speaker 12: that they're not answering the real questions of people out there.
23:49
Speaker 12: And I keep on saying One Nation's listening on the
23:51
Speaker 12: basis that they want to know what politicians are going
23:54
Speaker 12: to be doing about their cost of living pressures rather
23:57
Speaker 12: than what Pauline Hanson might or might not have said
23:58
Speaker 12: in the past.
24:01
Speaker 2: I mean, Cameron, what do you think about those comments?
24:03
Speaker 2: Because I think character does matter. It does matter if
24:07
Speaker 2: you offend fellow Australians. But then, on the other hand, Cameron,
24:11
Speaker 2: it is pretty obvious to journalists that the Labor dirt
24:15
Speaker 2: unit would have been involved in digging up those comments.
24:18
Speaker 2: So is Labor now getting a taste of its own
24:20
Speaker 2: medicine with the Reece Muldoon scandal?
24:24
Speaker 13: Well, I think both sides have dirt units, but Labor's
24:27
Speaker 13: has been historically much better. And to Mike's comments before,
24:31
Speaker 13: I'm sorry, mate. I mean, you know, Pauline made the comments.
24:33
Speaker 13: She was on the record. She went and did the podcast.
24:36
Speaker 13: Those words tumbled out of her mouth. And I'm sorry,
24:39
Speaker 13: politics is a hard game and you own your record.
24:42
Speaker 13: But what I will say about Pauline is she gave
24:44
Speaker 13: the Prime Minister a lesson in political civility.
24:46
Speaker 1: She apologised.
24:47
Speaker 13: She actually owned up for saying the wrong words, and
24:50
Speaker 13: that's something which should be actually, you know, commended, because
24:53
Speaker 13: the Prime Minister is all... His modus operandi is lie,
24:56
Speaker 13: deny and lie again, whereas at least Pauline said the
24:59
Speaker 13: wrong things, owned up to it and said sorry.
25:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right.
25:03
Speaker 2: I think, Mike, that voters will give her credit for
25:06
Speaker 2: that and also the fact that she apologised for... the
25:10
Speaker 2: comments she made about Albanese's mother. I mean, Mike, do
25:13
Speaker 2: you think she was right to say sorry for those remarks?
25:17
Speaker 12: As I said before, I think absolutely she owned her
25:21
Speaker 12: words and what Cameron mentioned, I don't disagree with him.
25:24
Speaker 12: The point being is that the Labor Dirt Units, as
25:26
Speaker 12: you pointed out, as if all of the media resources
25:30
Speaker 12: that he had nine months ago when she did that
25:32
Speaker 12: podcast didn't already know about that and just chose a
25:35
Speaker 12: convenient time to launch it.
25:37
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing.
25:39
Speaker 12: People say things all the time and, you know, you
25:42
Speaker 12: must own your own comments. I get that. And she has.
25:45
Speaker 12: So the point is, once again, Mr Albanese is using
25:49
Speaker 12: for political point scoring purposes. And she was really pointed
25:52
Speaker 12: to the fact that she wanted to make sure that
25:55
Speaker 12: people understood that public housing and commission housing should be,
25:59
Speaker 12: as Rockefeller once put it, is charity is is injurious
26:04
Speaker 12: unless it relieves the recipient of it.
26:07
Speaker 2: Cameron, do you think any of this hurts her anyway?
26:10
Speaker 2: Is it kind of similar to President Trump where it
26:12
Speaker 2: really doesn't matter what he says or does, you know,
26:15
Speaker 2: the support from voters is so rusted on?
26:19
Speaker 13: I think so. And I think we've talked about this before.
26:21
Speaker 13: I mean, you know, Taylor and Albanese are so disregarded
26:23
Speaker 13: by voters out there that any alternative looks better than
26:26
Speaker 13: those two at the moment for leadership. And look at
26:28
Speaker 13: your state colleague, Warren Pickering, you know, sexual deviance, taking methamphetamines, marijuana,
26:33
Speaker 13: having a good time in his 20s. didn't touch the
26:35
Speaker 13: sides in terms of today's poll in Victoria. So I
26:39
Speaker 13: think voters are prepared to forgive as long as politicians
26:43
Speaker 13: aren't duplicitous about their background and, to your point, Mike,
26:46
Speaker 13: own what they've said.
26:48
Speaker 2: Well, maybe let's pick up on your point about the
26:50
Speaker 2: Victorian poll. I was going to come back to this
26:51
Speaker 2: a bit later, but according to the polls, Jess Wilson
26:54
Speaker 2: is doing well. I mean, the coalition is leading Labor
26:57
Speaker 2: in Victoria by 3% and rising. So, you know, it
27:02
Speaker 2: does look like... Mike, yeah, there, we've got it on
27:05
Speaker 2: the screen. I mean, coalitions ahead of One Nation in Victoria.
27:09
Speaker 2: So does this say a lot about leadership, the fact
27:13
Speaker 2: that Jess Wilson is a strong leader and that Wayne
27:17
Speaker 2: Pickering's scandal, Warren Pickering's scandal, has actually impacted?
27:21
Speaker 4: Mike?
27:22
Speaker 12: Look, to be honest, I think the polls, you know,
27:25
Speaker 12: the only poll that matters is election day, as we
27:27
Speaker 12: often say. But look, I actually believe that we were
27:30
Speaker 12: polling very strong numbers even when there was no candidates.
27:33
Speaker 12: So the underlying thing here is, yeah, look, we think
27:36
Speaker 12: that it's going to be a good fight. But results
27:39
Speaker 12: like Secret Harbour, I think, belie the true polls. I
27:42
Speaker 12: think there are a lot of people out there who
27:44
Speaker 12: are resisting telling their true feelings and we're just seeing
27:48
Speaker 12: that more and more when I'm out in the hustings
27:50
Speaker 12: that people are saying two words we're done with the
27:55
Speaker 12: basically the existing political class because they just feel totally
27:59
Speaker 12: they're the first punished and last considered.
28:02
Speaker 2: Yeah but this is the problem that Angus Taylor has
28:06
Speaker 2: Cameron how does he cut through?
28:09
Speaker 13: Well, I mean, I don't think he could cut through,
28:11
Speaker 13: you know, butter with a hot knife. I mean, he's
28:14
Speaker 13: hoped us. But it comes down to the fact that
28:17
Speaker 13: isn't it interesting the Liberal Party CV for the next
28:20
Speaker 13: leader is all about who can stand up to Pauline?
28:22
Speaker 13: I mean, Andrew Hastie was traipsing around with his CV
28:24
Speaker 13: last week, beating up on Pauline. Taylor's trying to do
28:27
Speaker 13: it in the party room today. I mean, Pauline is
28:29
Speaker 13: so much in their headspace. When it comes down to leadership,
28:31
Speaker 13: the Liberals are bereft of it federally. To your point, though,
28:34
Speaker 13: Jess Wilson probably was a lot further ahead in the
28:36
Speaker 13: polls before One Nation turned up in Victoria. But your
28:39
Speaker 13: poll in today's New South Wales showed you're well ahead
28:42
Speaker 13: of Kelly in terms of New South Wales politics leading
28:45
Speaker 13: into March next year, which I think means wins, but
28:48
Speaker 13: necessarily One Nation's polling well in New South Wales as well.
28:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, Mike, let's turn to that.
28:53
Speaker 2: I mean, when you get around the state, I mean,
28:55
Speaker 2: you've only been leader, is it even two weeks now?
28:57
Speaker 2: I think I had.
28:58
Speaker 12: Getting three this Friday.
29:00
Speaker 1: Three, right. Getting two and a half weeks.
29:02
Speaker 2: So it's amazing. I mean, what's your sense so far
29:05
Speaker 2: with the kind of support that One Nation has in
29:08
Speaker 2: in New South Wales, because Kelly Sloan is a very
29:10
Speaker 2: popular leader. She's doing a good job.
29:14
Speaker 12: Look, I mean, when I'm out in the hustings, the
29:17
Speaker 12: amount of people that come up to me, I mean,
29:18
Speaker 12: I'm usually wearing an orange shirt, which probably makes me
29:21
Speaker 12: a bit of a semaphore, and I'm next to the
29:23
Speaker 12: One Nation ute, which also helps. But people are coming
29:26
Speaker 12: up and saying, we've voted Labor all our life.
29:28
Speaker 10: We're done.
29:28
Speaker 12: We're sick of the lies, the turning of the Communist
29:30
Speaker 12: Party and so on and so forth. But I would
29:32
Speaker 12: add that I received a message from the floor of
29:35
Speaker 12: Parliament today in New South Wales where question time was
29:38
Speaker 12: all about One Nation. We don't have any seats in
29:41
Speaker 12: upper or lower, but we are being seen as, I guess,
29:44
Speaker 12: the de facto opposition. And that's something that we look
29:47
Speaker 12: to be very encouraging because I've challenged the Premier to
29:49
Speaker 12: a three-way debate. He hasn't got back to me. And
29:52
Speaker 12: I think that people want to see that. So I
29:55
Speaker 12: extend again the opportunity for the Premier, if he has
29:59
Speaker 12: all the facts, that he shouldn't be afraid of someone
30:02
Speaker 12: like me with no political background. Let's get the people
30:06
Speaker 12: of New South Wales to see who they're up against.
30:08
Speaker 2: He's a very experienced politician, Chris Minns. Do you think
30:11
Speaker 2: you'd do all right in a debate against him?
30:14
Speaker 12: I don't see why not. I mean, he's already started
30:16
Speaker 12: telling lies from India. And I wrote an open letter,
30:19
Speaker 12: which is on my sub stack if people want to
30:21
Speaker 12: see it. It was basically just saying that, tell the truth.
30:24
Speaker 12: We're not cutting frontline services. If you want to look
30:26
Speaker 12: at Cessnock Hospital, there are no doctors. And on 28 September,
30:31
Speaker 12: Ryan Park is opening a new wing. Once again, no doctors.
30:33
Speaker 12: No point opening a $ 130 million wing if you haven't
30:36
Speaker 12: got doctors to serve the people. They're going to the
30:39
Speaker 12: John Hunter in Newcastle or giving up and going to
30:42
Speaker 12: Sydney to seek medical care. This is just the debacle
30:44
Speaker 12: that's going on right now with the current Labor government.
30:47
Speaker 2: Healthcare is always a big issue in a state of actions.
30:49
Speaker 2: All right, Cameron Milner, Mike Newman, thank you both so much.
30:52
Speaker 12: Thank you.
30:53
Speaker 2: Still to come, the Sydney Sweeney scandal over racy ads,
30:57
Speaker 2: plus how Rhys Muldoon's social comments expose Labor's hypocrisy. That's
31:02
Speaker 2: with tele-editor Ben English after the break. Well, former Play
31:08
Speaker 2: School star turned Labor staffer Rhys Muldoon has been sacked
31:13
Speaker 2: after it was revealed he made a series of vile
31:15
Speaker 2: comments on social media targeting conservative women and politicians, including
31:20
Speaker 2: Jacinta Nambajimpa Price and my colleague Peter Credlin. The posts
31:24
Speaker 2: are too despicable to read out, but other comments targeted
31:28
Speaker 2: at Dave Sharma labelled him a fake Jew and he
31:32
Speaker 2: called Jacinta a traitor to Indigenous people over her position
31:36
Speaker 2: on The Voice. I mean, it raises questions as to
31:39
Speaker 2: why Labor hired him in the first place, given one
31:42
Speaker 2: of the posts was made over a decade ago. Well,
31:44
Speaker 2: The Daily Telly's editor, Ben English, joins me now. Ben,
31:48
Speaker 2: you've done your splash on this tomorrow.
31:50
Speaker 10: Yeah, I have because this is so typical of what
31:53
Speaker 10: we see from, particularly from the left, where there's permissiveness
31:58
Speaker 10: of vile and disgusting comments as long as they're aimed
32:03
Speaker 10: at the right enemy. And so that's our front page there.
32:06
Speaker 10: I mean, he's clearly a chum of Albanese's.
32:09
Speaker 2: So he's kissing Albo there in the cheek, responding. Mates hate.
32:13
Speaker 10: Yeah, they're good mates there. And, I mean, the point
32:16
Speaker 10: here is, like, this is, like, you can be a feminist,
32:21
Speaker 10: but if your feminism is only aimed at one person,
32:23
Speaker 10: that's not feminism.
32:24
Speaker 1: Yeah.
32:25
Speaker 10: Or one-sided politics. That's not feminism. That's factionalism. And we
32:28
Speaker 10: see this again and again. I mean, this guy's tweets,
32:31
Speaker 10: as you said, they've been up there for years. Why
32:34
Speaker 10: hasn't anyone vetted that or why hasn't anyone called it out?
32:37
Speaker 10: It's because they're aimed at their enemy, so it's OK.
32:40
Speaker 6: So it's all fine.
32:40
Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of a repeat of the whole
32:42
Speaker 2: mean girls saga in a way where the allegations of
32:45
Speaker 2: bullying won't even investigate it because it was.
32:48
Speaker 10: And we also saw the complete silence when it came
32:52
Speaker 10: to Prime Minister Albanese's objection.
32:54
Speaker 2: Melengate. Yeah. Melengate scandals. I think that's a good segue
32:58
Speaker 2: into the next topic, Ben.
33:00
Speaker 1: Sydney Sweeney. You know where I'm going.
33:03
Speaker 2: Sydney Sweeney, there's this whole ridiculous scandal over, you know,
33:08
Speaker 2: these adverts where she's holding footballs or basketballs or whatever
33:12
Speaker 2: type of sport balls there are. I don't know what
33:15
Speaker 2: sports they are. Other people can tell me who actually
33:18
Speaker 2: watch sport. And it's to promote a gambling website. But, yeah,
33:22
Speaker 2: we've got, you know, Australian politicians saying with no humour,
33:26
Speaker 2: like Zali Steggall coming out against her.
33:29
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't... I mean, Zali Steggall's not
33:33
Speaker 10: someone who has a sense of humour and so you
33:35
Speaker 10: wouldn't expect her to understand or appreciate what Sydney Sweeney's doing.
33:42
Speaker 10: She's having fun. She's doing it voluntarily because she has
33:46
Speaker 10: an equity stake in this business. She knows who her
33:49
Speaker 10: audience is. Her audience is overwhelmingly male. which wouldn't surprise anyone.
33:54
Speaker 10: And so she's monetising that. But she's not pretending to
33:58
Speaker 10: be a sports person, which people are sort of trying
34:01
Speaker 10: to suggest.
34:01
Speaker 7: It's ridiculous.
34:02
Speaker 2: And, I mean, that's the very premise of advertising, isn't it?
34:05
Speaker 2: Sex sells.
34:06
Speaker 1: Well, yeah.
34:07
Speaker 2: This isn't any different.
34:08
Speaker 10: Yeah, and she understands that.
34:10
Speaker 1: All right.
34:10
Speaker 2: Transport Minister Catherine King, she's been given a lifetime platinum card,
34:18
Speaker 2: membership status.
34:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
34:20
Speaker 2: This is alongside the Chairman's Lounge.
34:23
Speaker 3: What do you think?
34:24
Speaker 1: Is this appropriate?
34:26
Speaker 10: Well, she's a transport minister.
34:29
Speaker 1: This is a big perk.
34:30
Speaker 10: You know, it's one thing for Qantas to offer it
34:33
Speaker 10: to her. Is it appropriate for her to accept that?
34:35
Speaker 10: And the problem here is that even if she's completely
34:38
Speaker 10: squeaky clean and incorruptible, there's still a perception there that's
34:41
Speaker 10: always at the back of people's minds whenever she makes
34:43
Speaker 10: a decision which concerns Qantas. And let's face it, in
34:46
Speaker 10: aviation in Australia, everything concerns Qantas.
34:48
Speaker 11: Yeah.
34:49
Speaker 10: So I think it's problematic.
34:51
Speaker 2: And also there's how it looks to voters. You know,
34:53
Speaker 2: cost of living crisis, interest rates going up, petrol expensive.
34:57
Speaker 2: Voters are doing it tough.
34:58
Speaker 1: Inflation, a major issue.
35:00
Speaker 2: And then they see an Albanese government minister getting a
35:03
Speaker 2: perk like this.
35:04
Speaker 10: It's a dreadful optic. And, you know, you think about
35:07
Speaker 10: Annika Wells as well, when she was lying all over
35:09
Speaker 10: the court side at the Australian Open and all the
35:12
Speaker 10: other images. We keep seeing these sort of unfortunate images
35:17
Speaker 10: over and over again at a time when Ordinary people,
35:20
Speaker 10: as you say, are struggling, particularly in light of what's
35:21
Speaker 10: happened since the federal budget.
35:23
Speaker 2: We have been covering it a lot on this show,
35:25
Speaker 2: the ICAC corruption hearing, because it's a bit dull, to
35:29
Speaker 2: be honest, and it's very New South Wales focused. But
35:31
Speaker 2: today there was a very interesting witness. This is the
35:35
Speaker 2: property developer, Gene Nassif, who's been on the run for
35:40
Speaker 2: a long period of time, and then he pops up
35:42
Speaker 2: as a witness.
35:43
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, this has now reached a complete circus
35:47
Speaker 10: proportions now. Gene Nassif's been on the run from Australian
35:50
Speaker 10: authorities for serious fraud charges. He's at large, but he's
35:57
Speaker 10: agreed to go on screen from his hidey hole in Lebanon.
36:01
Speaker 10: The interesting thing to me is that last time we
36:03
Speaker 10: saw him, he was in a hospital with lots of
36:07
Speaker 10: plugs going into his face. He was on death's door.
36:09
Speaker 10: So he's made a remarkable recovery.
36:10
Speaker 2: In a very short space of time, no doubt.
36:12
Speaker 8: He did.
36:13
Speaker 2: Just very quickly before you go, I had the One
36:15
Speaker 2: Nation New South Wales leader on before, you know, new
36:17
Speaker 2: in the role, Mike Newman. The polls for One Nation
36:22
Speaker 2: are looking good for them.
36:24
Speaker 1: Bit of a worry for Kelly.
36:25
Speaker 2: Is this going to mainly hurt Kelly or Chris Mintz?
36:27
Speaker 10: It's going to hurt Kelly. And the situation in New
36:31
Speaker 10: South Wales, for people from outside New South Wales, it's
36:34
Speaker 10: an optional preferential system. So if people are going to
36:37
Speaker 10: vote for Mike Newman and One Nation, often what's going
36:40
Speaker 10: to happen is it'll be a cross next to his name.
36:42
Speaker 5: Mm.
36:43
Speaker 10: And the vote exhausts. So that could be devastating for Kelly.
36:46
Speaker 10: She needs to get into that second position. And, you know,
36:50
Speaker 10: those polling numbers that you're seeing there, they've been showing
36:54
Speaker 10: those polls even before Mike Newman, you know, assumed the role.
36:59
Speaker 12: So.
36:59
Speaker 10: People are saying.
37:01
Speaker 2: One Nation irrespective of who the state leaders are.
37:04
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, and privately One Nation are telling me that
37:07
Speaker 10: their numbers in New South Wales are the strongest in
37:09
Speaker 10: the country.
37:09
Speaker 5: Wow.
37:10
Speaker 10: So it's game on.
37:11
Speaker 2: Wow, wow. She should have been leader after the election.
37:14
Speaker 2: I mean, it's... Yeah. It was too soon.
37:16
Speaker 10: A lot of lost time.
37:17
Speaker 12: Yeah.
37:17
Speaker 2: All right, Ben, thank you so much.
37:18
Speaker 11: Thank you.
37:18
Speaker 2: Look forward to reading your paper tomorrow. And coming up
37:22
Speaker 2: in the program, does America need to slow the race
37:26
Speaker 2: towards super-intelligent AI before it's uncontrollable? Plus, migration remains a
37:31
Speaker 2: key debate in politics, so why have talks between the
37:34
Speaker 2: major parties stalled? John O'Donoghue reveals more next.
37:41
Speaker 1: Welcome back.
37:42
Speaker 2: Talks between the major parties on migration have stalled and
37:45
Speaker 2: business groups are warning that One Nation's drastic plan for
37:48
Speaker 2: net negative migration will plunge the economy into deep recession.
37:53
Speaker 1: Here's Andrew McKellar.
37:54
Speaker 2: He says this is a COVID level shock to the
37:57
Speaker 2: economy without any of the offsets. We can't afford to
38:00
Speaker 2: take a further external shock. He's from the Chamber of Commerce.
38:04
Speaker 2: And joining me now is Shadow Minister for Home Affairs
38:06
Speaker 2: and Immigration, Jono Daniam.
38:07
Speaker 1: Jono, good to see you.
38:09
Speaker 2: So why have these talks broken down? What are your
38:12
Speaker 2: concerns with One Nation's policy?
38:17
Speaker 9: Well, look, the talks between the government and the opposition
38:20
Speaker 9: have broken down. And, frankly, there is still a pathway forward.
38:24
Speaker 9: The government could come back to us and sort of
38:26
Speaker 9: look at some of the things we've put on the table.
38:28
Speaker 9: Last week, Angus Taylor wrote to the Prime Minister with
38:31
Speaker 9: 10 very clear, very straightforward demands around how we can
38:35
Speaker 9: restore integrity in a broken... immigration system, how we can
38:39
Speaker 9: meaningfully get numbers down, how we can stop terrorists from
38:43
Speaker 9: coming back into our country, how we can get people
38:45
Speaker 9: who are convicted of serious offences out and cancel their visas.
38:49
Speaker 9: they're the things we were asking for meaningful action on
38:52
Speaker 9: and we just didn't get the traction we needed with
38:55
Speaker 9: government and so therefore we weren't able to progress those discussions.
38:58
Speaker 9: With One Nation's policy, well, of course, the devil is
39:02
Speaker 9: always in the detail with these things and this is
39:04
Speaker 9: why there has been a degree of time taken for
39:07
Speaker 9: us to get this right and we are, before you ask.
39:10
Speaker 2: Very close to.
39:11
Speaker 9: You know I'm going to ask. I know you're going
39:13
Speaker 9: to ask.
39:14
Speaker 2: I ask it every time you're on.
39:15
Speaker 1: Where is your immigration policy?
39:18
Speaker 9: And one day I'm going to surprise you and tell
39:20
Speaker 9: you everything you want to know. And that won't be
39:22
Speaker 9: too far away because it is important, but it is
39:24
Speaker 9: more important that we get it right. And this is
39:27
Speaker 9: the problem with One Nation's policy. As Andrew McKellar, as
39:31
Speaker 9: Warren Hogan from Judo Bank and others have said, that
39:34
Speaker 9: there are immense problems with what they're proposing there because
39:37
Speaker 9: of the lack of detail around economic and fiscal impacts.
39:41
Speaker 9: This could have more disastrous consequences than just bringing down
39:44
Speaker 9: the number. It's important to bring the number down, but
39:47
Speaker 9: the cost to the economy, its impact on society is
39:50
Speaker 9: something we need to measure as well. And One Nation's
39:52
Speaker 9: policy doesn't do that.
39:54
Speaker 2: Are you saying your number will be higher than One Nation's?
39:59
Speaker 9: Well, their number has sort of been all over the shop.
40:02
Speaker 9: They're saying that they would be a norm which is negative,
40:05
Speaker 9: so less than zero minus something for three years and
40:09
Speaker 9: then apparently back up to 130. Our number will be... Look,
40:15
Speaker 9: we're still working through it.
40:17
Speaker 1: You can just say it.
40:18
Speaker 8: Go for it.
40:20
Speaker 9: We're still working through it. It will not be a
40:22
Speaker 9: disappointing number to your viewers. It will be a number
40:24
Speaker 9: that is a meaningful reduction, but it will be sustainable.
40:28
Speaker 9: It will not have an economic shock attached that will
40:30
Speaker 9: devastate parts of our economy. It will be properly modelled.
40:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right.
40:35
Speaker 2: About $ 180, 000?
40:38
Speaker 4: I don't know.
40:39
Speaker 9: I wouldn't be putting my money on that number. But, look,
40:41
Speaker 9: you'll know more soon.
40:42
Speaker 1: All right, all right.
40:43
Speaker 2: Look, there's debate raging in the United States about whether
40:46
Speaker 2: the race towards super intelligent AI needs to slow down.
40:51
Speaker 2: It's kind of surprising that some of those urging a
40:54
Speaker 2: slowdown are those actually leading the AI companies. Jono, like
40:58
Speaker 2: the CEO of Anthropic, Dario, like the CEO of OpenAI,
41:02
Speaker 2: Sam Altman, even Elon Musk has supported Dario's comments.
41:06
Speaker 1: You've been following this. I mean, what are the.
41:08
Speaker 2: Concerns here from a security perspective?
41:14
Speaker 9: Well, they're legitimate concerns and we can't pretend they don't exist.
41:17
Speaker 9: I mean, AI, its scope, its depth, its breadth, what
41:22
Speaker 9: it's capable of doing, what it can train itself to do,
41:24
Speaker 9: what it can teach itself to do is something that
41:27
Speaker 9: is just uncharted. And so I think it is right
41:30
Speaker 9: and refreshing and frankly reassuring that the leaders in this
41:34
Speaker 9: industry are saying, hey, hang on, we need to perhaps
41:38
Speaker 9: take a deep breath here and make sure we are
41:40
Speaker 9: putting in place the right guardrails and safety measures to
41:44
Speaker 9: protect society from any risks that might present. That is
41:48
Speaker 9: something that in partnership with government we need to get
41:50
Speaker 9: right here in Australia. I know there are concerns out there,
41:53
Speaker 9: not just with data centres and where they might be built,
41:55
Speaker 9: but of course what impact AI, its rollout, what it
41:59
Speaker 9: can do will have as an impact on society. So
42:03
Speaker 9: We've heard the stories, we've seen the reports. The best
42:06
Speaker 9: part about this is they are being upfront, open and
42:09
Speaker 9: honest with us about mistakes that are made, escapes from
42:12
Speaker 9: training pens, et cetera. Well, let's find ways to protect
42:16
Speaker 9: ourselves from that and that's something we should get right
42:18
Speaker 9: in Australia.
42:20
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really hard for Australia to show global
42:22
Speaker 2: leadership on this, though. It has to come from the
42:24
Speaker 2: United States. It has to come from these companies. It
42:26
Speaker 2: kind of can't come from Australia.
42:30
Speaker 9: No, and we aren't going to be able to replicate
42:33
Speaker 9: what they do in the US. And, of course, we
42:36
Speaker 9: are in a situation where the two leaders in this
42:38
Speaker 9: space are the CCP in China, who are not on
42:43
Speaker 9: our side when it comes to matter security and economic advantage.
42:46
Speaker 9: We've seen that demonstrated time and time again. Or the
42:49
Speaker 9: United States and their five major players, the hyperscalers, major
42:53
Speaker 9: entities like Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, etc., And so we do
42:57
Speaker 9: need to align with them. We need to ensure we
42:59
Speaker 9: have arrangements in place. And we do need to, yes,
43:01
Speaker 9: take their lead, but we do need to ensure we
43:04
Speaker 9: protect our own interests as a nation and get security
43:07
Speaker 9: measures in place that protect our interests, economic and security.
43:11
Speaker 9: And I think we can do that. And they're willing
43:13
Speaker 9: to work with us on that. And we need to
43:15
Speaker 9: reach a bipartisan agreement on this. There are always going
43:18
Speaker 9: to be concerns we need to look after, but it
43:20
Speaker 9: is in our nation's interest we get this right, take
43:22
Speaker 9: full advantage, but put in place the necessary protections.
43:26
Speaker 2: All right, Trump seems to see it as a race
43:28
Speaker 2: with China, though, the modern-day space race. But another topic
43:32
Speaker 2: for another day. All right, Jono, good to see you.
43:34
Speaker 2: Thank you. Still to come, the disturbing reports that show
43:38
Speaker 2: extremists are using online platforms to radicalise children.
43:42
Speaker 1: That's next. Thanks for tuning in.
43:47
Speaker 2: Well, experts are warning that children are being radicalised online
43:51
Speaker 2: through social media, encrypted networks.
43:53
Speaker 1: And even gambling reforms.
43:55
Speaker 2: Agencies are concerned that extremist groups are using the platforms
43:59
Speaker 2: to spread propaganda and that sexual predators are even extorting children.
44:04
Speaker 2: For more on this, the Labor Senator and Chair of
44:07
Speaker 2: the Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, Raf Chikoni, joins
44:10
Speaker 2: me live from Canberra.
44:11
Speaker 1: Raf, great to see you again. Look, you're very worried
44:14
Speaker 1: about this.
44:14
Speaker 2: You're calling it a blind spot in our national security.
44:20
Speaker 14: Indeed, and look, as a parent, as you are and
44:23
Speaker 14: many of your viewers, it is quite concerning to learn that,
44:27
Speaker 14: you know, out of nine out of 10 Australian households
44:30
Speaker 14: that have a video game, 40% of children that have
44:35
Speaker 14: been playing these games are actually playing with someone that
44:38
Speaker 14: they don't know who they are, with a complete stranger.
44:41
Speaker 1: Wow.
44:42
Speaker 14: And more alarming, 25% are actually then chatting to that
44:45
Speaker 14: person and which is even more concerning. And I think
44:50
Speaker 14: parents right across the country, when they would have been
44:52
Speaker 14: reading the stories today in the Daily Telegraph or across
44:55
Speaker 14: the News Limited papers and seeing the news on News
44:58
Speaker 14: 24 today, would be actually quite concerned to learn those
45:03
Speaker 14: alarming statistics. When we drop off our kids at childcare
45:07
Speaker 14: or at school, we expect them to be in a
45:08
Speaker 14: safe environment, and that's no different to when they're at home,
45:12
Speaker 14: maybe in their own bedrooms or in the lounge room
45:14
Speaker 14: playing a video game thinking that they might be talking
45:17
Speaker 14: or playing with their mates at school, but quite the
45:20
Speaker 14: reverse when you hear about those alarming statistics.
45:22
Speaker 2: So is this a loophole in the laws that your
45:26
Speaker 2: government introduced to stop kids from accessing social media?
45:32
Speaker 12: Not at all.
45:33
Speaker 14: I mean, those laws were designed and aimed at the
45:36
Speaker 14: social media platforms. What my inquiry is seeking to do
45:40
Speaker 14: is to look at the gaming platforms, encrypted applications and
45:47
Speaker 14: the algorithms that are on the internet. You know, Mike Burgess,
45:51
Speaker 14: the ASIO's chief.
45:52
Speaker 2: Director-General... has.
45:53
Speaker 14: Said very clearly, Director-General, that, you know, the internet is
45:57
Speaker 14: a very big problem. And AFP Commissioner Chrissie Barrett has
46:00
Speaker 14: also said the same thing. It's one thing that is
46:03
Speaker 14: keeping both of our law enforcement and security agencies awake
46:06
Speaker 14: at night. What we need to do is look at
46:09
Speaker 14: the issue at the heart of the problem, which is
46:11
Speaker 14: why is it that our children are being exposed to
46:14
Speaker 14: this radicalised extremist content? Unfortunately, we've seen cases where children
46:20
Speaker 14: as young as 12 in Australia are being radicalised, being
46:23
Speaker 14: encouraged to perform acts of violence in our society. And,
46:27
Speaker 14: you know, in light of what happened at Bondi, I
46:29
Speaker 14: think there are some lessons to be learnt here. You know,
46:31
Speaker 14: we need to make sure that our most vulnerable in society,
46:34
Speaker 14: our children, are not exposed to this content. More alarming,
46:39
Speaker 14: and I hate to put a downer on this, but,
46:41
Speaker 14: you know, we're also seeing an alarming rate of pedophilia
46:45
Speaker 14: occurring through these gaming platforms. And I really want to
46:50
Speaker 14: have a genuine bipartisan approach about how we tackle this
46:53
Speaker 14: problem and protect our kids. You know, it is all
46:55
Speaker 14: well and good for our kids to have fun at
46:59
Speaker 14: home or fun on these gaming platforms. I mean, I
47:02
Speaker 14: grew up with games. They were very different back then,
47:05
Speaker 14: you know, playing Super Mario Kart in a Nintendo console.
47:09
Speaker 14: But these games and these platforms are now connected to
47:11
Speaker 14: the internet. And unfortunately, there are a lot of, you know,
47:15
Speaker 14: very dark places that we need to look at and
47:19
Speaker 14: protect our children.
47:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are indeed.
47:21
Speaker 2: I just want to pick up on, I played comments
47:23
Speaker 2: earlier in the show that the ASIO chief, Mike Burge,
47:26
Speaker 2: just said about how they foiled 16 terror attacks since Bondi.
47:31
Speaker 2: Do you worry that we don't know the extent of
47:33
Speaker 2: the radicalisation problem, you know, given there are so many
47:37
Speaker 2: instances that seem to be cropping up?
47:42
Speaker 14: Well, one of the points that Mike has made in
47:44
Speaker 14: his annual threat assessment only a few months ago is
47:47
Speaker 14: that people, again, also young people, have been radicalised in weeks,
47:52
Speaker 14: not months or years, that would have been traditionally occurred.
47:54
Speaker 14: And I think when you look at what is occurring
47:57
Speaker 14: now with online platforms, you know, it is concerning and
48:01
Speaker 14: we really do need to tackle this problem head on.
48:04
Speaker 14: You know, the rise of anti-Semitism across the country, as
48:09
Speaker 14: you know, has increased by over 300% since, you know,
48:11
Speaker 14: the October 7 attacks. And with Bondi, I think it's
48:18
Speaker 14: important that we give it the oversight that it deserves
48:25
Speaker 14: and making the assurance that we can say to the
48:28
Speaker 14: Jewish community that we are on your side and we're
48:30
Speaker 14: doing everything that we can to protect you and your
48:33
Speaker 14: family and your community.
48:35
Speaker 12: It is a big problem.
48:37
Speaker 14: We've listed the IRGC.
48:39
Speaker 1: It's an important message.
48:40
Speaker 2: And I know you personally care a lot and you're
48:42
Speaker 2: doing a lot as chair of the Intelligence Committee. And
48:45
Speaker 2: we thank you for that. Raf Ciccone, great to have
48:47
Speaker 2: you on the show. Thank you so much.
48:50
Speaker 1: And that's all tonight.
48:51
Speaker 2: I'll see you tomorrow at eight. And right now, here's
48:54
Speaker 2: Paul Murray.