Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 194. HGSE Global Citizen: Sabrina Sheikh: Showing up as a leader for yourself and others

Transcript

194. HGSE Global Citizen: Sabrina Sheikh: Showing up as a leader for yourself and others · Be A Global Citizen!

0:05
Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
0:08
explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
0:11
value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm
0:15
Ahsoka, researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussion,
0:18
stories and insights on this podcast to be valuable and
0:21
inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
0:24
committed to living a contributive life.
0:26
Enjoy. Hello, my name is British Deck
0:35
and I work at the Institute for Educational Leadership.
0:38
I'm located here in the DMV area, so DC, Maryland, Virginia
0:43
for those that don't know, and I'm our Senior program Manager.
0:47
Hi, Sabrina, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
0:50
I'm so happy that we can have this this time, the space to
0:54
really learn more about your journey.
0:56
And I, I recall the first time I met you was the on campus
1:01
institute right for our, the beginnings of our Harvard
1:04
program. And I felt like, you know, you
1:08
were like electrifying, right? And the way that you spoke and
1:12
the way that you carried yourself with like such
1:13
confidence. I really admire that about you.
1:16
And I know that as a leader, I many different kinds of profiles
1:20
of leaders, but I really felt like you embodied this kind of
1:23
like very like bold and confident style.
1:26
But I know that there's probably so much more in terms of like
1:28
what what you think a leader is. And then the work that you do in
1:32
supporting and kind of extending more, you know, I would imagine
1:36
programs and like connecting with other, you know,
1:39
individuals. So that, yeah, I, I mean, I'm
1:42
just kind of wanting to learn like how you became a leader and
1:46
what brought you to an organization that has a
1:48
leadership in the name itself. And yeah.
1:51
And so I'm just wanting to to extend this opportunity for you
1:54
to kind of unpack some of those milestones in your career.
1:59
And yeah. And I'm just really excited to
2:01
see how that intersects with the concept of global citizenship.
2:04
So I'll pass it over to you. Thank you so much for those kind
2:08
words, Scott. So I would say my journey, I
2:13
don't necessarily feel like there's this one part or place
2:17
where you become a leader, right?
2:18
It's more of like a journey within itself.
2:20
And I think that my journey really has started both through
2:25
my parents and the migration of coming into the US in itself.
2:31
So I'm actually originally from Somalia, but was born in Kenya.
2:35
My parents fled the war, which is where they had me and my
2:38
sister. And then from there we're able
2:40
to resettle as refugees into the United States.
2:42
And we were located in Maryland. And when you think about that,
2:46
there's so many, there's so many challenges that comes with
2:49
navigating a new country, both from my parents, but also for
2:54
both me and my sister and really us treading that path, both for
2:58
my parents and for ourselves. And then we had five younger
3:01
siblings after that. So there's seven of us, right?
3:04
And so that meant navigating like, what does it mean to learn
3:07
English, right? Translating for your parents,
3:09
understanding both alongside your parents.
3:12
Like, what is our education system?
3:14
What does healthcare look like, right?
3:15
What do we have access to? All of the things we were doing
3:19
it in partnership with my parents, which made us have to
3:23
grow up in, in many ways very quickly.
3:25
And oftentimes you don't see these things as leadership,
3:27
right? You don't think of it of like
3:29
it's the normal, it's the things you grow up with, the things you
3:32
had to do to survive. But in reality, when you look
3:36
back, you recognize that all of those things were leadership,
3:40
right? You having to navigate and
3:42
translate for your parents at doctor's appointments, at school
3:45
meetings in itself was leadership that you had to
3:47
learn. Probably not like, you know, in
3:49
many ways it was not to say force, but it was no choice.
3:52
Like you had to do it in order to survive.
3:54
And so I think that's where the beginning of my my leadership
3:57
journey in itself started without me even like realizing
4:00
that. And then I think just like
4:03
really going through middle and high school, you know, growing
4:07
up in a low socioeconomic environment and things like
4:09
that, but not recognizing any of these things, right?
4:11
Like we knew we didn't have much.
4:15
And also that came with like when you see the challenges
4:19
within your own schools, the things you don't have, the
4:21
things that you're lacking or you're missing of.
4:23
And I think the reason why I could have easily had this
4:27
comparison is because so predominantly most of my
4:31
education has been in public school, but for a very brief
4:34
time, I did go to an Islamic private school, right?
4:36
For about four years, two years in middle school, two years high
4:39
school, because of that experience in itself, I was able
4:42
to recognize the difference in a quality of an education.
4:46
Most of what I learned in private school is actually what
4:49
shredded my way in 11th and 12th grade that allowed me to
4:52
graduate with very high scores. It wasn't what I necessarily
4:56
learned, sadly, in my my public high schools, all of a lot of
5:01
what I've learned at my private school that allowed me to like
5:04
rope, like to really elevate myself, right.
5:07
And within that even it like we knew how folks talked about it,
5:12
like what district we're from, right, compared to other
5:14
districts. What did we have access to
5:16
compared to other districts? And for me, it just bothered me
5:19
of like, why is that the case, right?
5:21
Like I came into the US and was told this American dream of
5:26
like, you can, you know, if you do XY and Z, you're going to be
5:29
successful and survive. And I'm like, but how does those
5:32
things happen when you're not even provided the same level of
5:35
education as someone else from across the road, right?
5:40
Which I think really got me so passionate about education in
5:44
particular and also got me passionate about politics.
5:47
And really at that, like, you know, high school, I was like,
5:50
I'm running for office. I'm going to make a change.
5:53
Like that was that was the goal, though.
5:56
That definitely has changed. At that time, it was more of
6:00
like just really early on in my own, like just growing up
6:05
recognizing a lot of the inequities, right, that existed
6:08
and not just quality of education.
6:10
I'm talking about even as simple as like being an English, you
6:13
know, coming into the US, being an English language learner, not
6:17
having a lot of supports around like our families, being engaged
6:20
and learning the school systems, right?
6:23
Just different out of school time program that specifically
6:26
supported us and created a community for us around our
6:28
identities and who we are, right?
6:30
Like so many of that that we didn't have, but would have made
6:33
a huge difference in our upbringing and even in our
6:37
trajectory academically, right. And then Fast forward into, I
6:42
would say kind of skipping over college, which there's a lot we
6:45
can unpack there, but really skipping through that.
6:48
And then my first career, actually first job straight out
6:52
of college was actually I was living in Portland, OR serving
6:57
immigrant refugee youth from the African diaspora.
7:00
And so for me, I was always passionate about how do I take
7:03
my lived experiences, right and be able to do something with it
7:07
for people that look like me, to be able to support folks that
7:10
look like me and think in ways that I wish I would have had
7:13
growing up, right? And so I started my career
7:16
actually working for Africa House in Portland, OR, serving
7:22
about 40 middle and high school young people and their families,
7:26
providing everything from both the usual transportation
7:30
translation supports, right? For my families and for my young
7:33
people at the same time, running out of school time programming,
7:37
focusing a lot about building their leadership skill sets,
7:39
having them be civically engaged and also just like exploring
7:43
their community and where they're in, right?
7:46
Like I had a lot of like young people who are only in the US
7:49
for a very brief time. And so sometimes things that
7:52
you're like, you know, they should have already done this or
7:54
that's normal, right? Wasn't normal, right.
7:57
Like something like you're living in the West Coast going
8:00
hiking or going camping or having sushi for the first time,
8:04
right? Like those are so important
8:06
experiences that my young people didn't didn't have access or
8:09
never had, right? And I think batted up like when
8:12
I was growing up, I probably had a majority of my meals at home,
8:17
right? Like I going out to eat was like
8:19
going to McDonald's. And that was like your five star
8:22
restaurant, right? Feeling of it.
8:25
And so I knew the importance that it is to be to expand
8:29
yourself out of what you know, right?
8:31
And so that's where it was so critical and important.
8:33
But as I was navigating this space, I realized there's so
8:36
many of these barriers that are still put in place, making it
8:41
difficult for our young people to be successful.
8:44
So, and also it was the level of like, I'm only making an impact
8:47
on X amount of young people, which is important.
8:50
But I also knew that we needed people like me and others, our
8:53
voices at a national space, at a much higher space, like a higher
8:58
level, to ensure that, you know, the things that we're seeing
9:01
systemically impacting our communities are actually being
9:05
transformed to actually eliminate those so that you
9:08
could have a strong transition into adulthood.
9:10
So you could have all the things that you need to be successful
9:13
and to quote on quote, reach the American dream, right?
9:17
Which actually is what brought me to my current job, which I've
9:19
been at this organization for seven plus years now and really
9:23
starting off of coming into this national space, saying like I
9:27
came into it not just because it was a job, but because I'm like,
9:30
what can I do differently in this space?
9:33
What difference can I make in this space?
9:34
How can my voice create a difference?
9:37
And I feel like I've done that in terms of when I started
9:41
within the organization, I came in as an executive assistant,
9:44
but I also had an idea and an idea around like, well, what
9:47
does it look like? Like what are we doing within
9:50
this space nationally across how are we supporting immigrant
9:53
refugee youth in the area of leadership and being able to
9:57
convene different folks across the country to have some of
10:00
these critical conversations. And what came about of it was,
10:03
Oh, well, we need something like we need a national program to
10:07
really build the capacity of immigrant refugee youth, which
10:10
is kind of what creates this program that we've had for a
10:13
while now called Leaders of Tomorrow.
10:14
And it was actually Co created and Co designed by immigrant
10:18
refugee youth. Because I believe it's important
10:20
and critical to have, right, those that we are serving to be
10:25
at the table, actually creating the thing, right?
10:28
Because they know what they need, right?
10:30
They don't what they want to learn and they should be a part
10:32
of the process and not just us, say.
10:35
And even though I wear that identity, right, I know that
10:38
within this identity, there are so many different perspectives,
10:41
ways of being that is critical to actually acknowledge.
10:44
And therefore it's important to bring them to the table and to
10:47
design with you, right? Because it's so much more
10:49
powerful in that sense, right? And then just continuing to do
10:54
this body of work around really building the capacity of young
10:56
people, all young people, right, especially those at the margins.
10:59
That's focusing on immigrant Fiji youth, youth through
11:01
disabilities just as impacted you.
11:03
Those who are often left out of the conversation and ensuring
11:07
that they have the knowledge, skills and abilities to create
11:09
change not only for themselves but also for their communities,
11:12
right? We often ask that we have such a
11:15
broken system, but yeah, what would it look like to actually
11:18
work with those that are being impacted by the system every
11:21
single day, right. And the changes that would
11:23
happen when we do that, the gaps that we may not see, but those
11:27
who are living through it every single day do notice.
11:30
And so when we work in partnership, especially because
11:33
oftentimes young people are left out of the conversation, the
11:36
impact that it does make. And so a lot of my body of work
11:39
has been around building the capacity around young people to
11:42
be leaders in both for themselves and in their
11:45
community, but also to change and transform the way adults
11:48
think. Because this can only happen if
11:50
adults shift their mind and actually createspace to be in
11:54
partnership with young people in the 1st place.
11:57
And so that's like a lot of my work in terms of leadership, but
11:59
I also do a lot of work around like workforce development and
12:03
really ensuring that young people transition successfully
12:06
into adulthood, which is just as critical, right?
12:09
And I think that's honestly one of the biggest reasons why I
12:11
joined, like why I went into the field of education is because
12:15
of, right, Like when you actually have a strong education
12:18
and you have the knowledge, skills and abilities to actually
12:22
know all the things you need to do anyway.
12:24
That's not what I say. But like, you know, like when
12:27
you actually have a high quality education and you have the
12:30
knowledge and skills, you're able to excel in ways that you
12:34
may have never known. And oftentimes, right, like
12:37
young people are not getting those opportunities, are not
12:39
getting that high quality learning, right, or not meeting
12:42
all the other needs that they need to be successful.
12:44
And then we wonder why then they're an adult and we're like,
12:47
well, why don't you know this or what's going on here?
12:49
But it's like, did we do a good enough job to ensure that you
12:53
actually are prepared for adulthood?
12:55
And so that's one sort of like my other really huge focuses
12:58
around ensuring that young people are prepared for
13:00
adulthood in whatever path they chose they choose to be.
13:03
And whether that be going into trades, whether that goal means
13:06
going straight into college, whether that means entering
13:09
straight into the workforce, whatever that may be, is
13:11
ensuring that they are knowledgeable enough and are
13:13
prepared to then be successful in that transition.
13:18
Thank you so much, Sabrina and I, I just always love like
13:21
listening to you to speak. Just you're so articulate and
13:25
and so passionate about the work that you're doing.
13:27
I really appreciate how it's, it's so intertwined with your
13:31
own lived experiences and that you are in a sense, you know,
13:36
giving, giving back, but then also empowering and really
13:39
showing with, you know, all these young people right now
13:42
that you're, you're firmly with them, right?
13:44
And that you're, you're there for them.
13:46
And I think especially for immigrant refugees, coming to a
13:49
new environment, a new culture, and one that, you know, albeit,
13:54
is probably not the most supportive and lacking in many
13:57
of those structures because of those barriers.
13:58
As you said, they, they need some kind of like North Star,
14:03
right? They, they need kind of like
14:05
someone to kind of, you know, support them at at critical
14:08
moments, right, critical juncture points because you
14:11
know, ultimately all the work they're doing.
14:14
But at the same time, right, where they're kind of like
14:16
channeling those efforts and those attentions.
14:19
Sometimes, you know, could be towards, you know, like going
14:22
straight into a barrier or it can go and, you know, around it
14:25
or can go through it in a way. But I feel like, you know, you
14:28
really have this, this vision for what you want to do
14:32
specifically within this organization.
14:34
And I think part of leadership is also having that, that
14:37
foresight, right, of like this is what needs to be done.
14:40
This is what is is lacking. So like, why don't we build
14:43
something towards that? Why don't we make this an agenda
14:47
item and really like stand firm to that.
14:49
And I feel like that's, that's something that, you know, you've
14:52
been building throughout all those experiences over the many
14:55
years of the work that you're doing.
14:56
And specifically with the emphasis on, on youth refugee,
15:02
it's, you know, that's, that's the future, right?
15:05
Investing in young people and especially ones who have, you
15:10
know, experienced the, that maybe feelings of like
15:14
alienation or like otherness that, you know, can, you know,
15:20
potentially like, kind of like put them down, you're trying to
15:23
do the opposite and bring them up.
15:24
So I just love what you shared. And, you know, I wanted to, to
15:28
speak a little bit about kind of your, your earlier, like, kind
15:32
of like upbringing because you said something that really
15:35
struck me as, as really fascinating.
15:38
And, and I wanted to hear your thoughts about, you know, this
15:41
idea of like, you know, you're, you're in a new country, You
15:45
know, Maryland, I think is where you said you guys relocated 7 of
15:49
you. And there were all of these
15:51
different tasks that needed to be done in terms of making sure,
15:56
like, you know, your whole family was this team, you know,
15:58
they need to be translating of, you know, like certain documents
16:01
going here and, like, accountability.
16:03
And, you know, everyone was kind of, you know, doing everything
16:06
they could to make sure that, you know, you were able to,
16:10
yeah, make things work. And you said that that was
16:14
something that, you know, helped build your leadership
16:17
capacities. But you wouldn't think that is
16:19
leadership. Maybe, you know, at A at a first
16:23
glance, like could you maybe speak to like, at what point did
16:27
you realize no, that is very much leadership?
16:29
Like was it still in, in that like early age, like in high
16:33
school or like when, what was the moment when, you know, maybe
16:37
someone kind of provided that clarity to you or maybe you kind
16:40
of, you know, maybe stumbled upon it where you said, oh,
16:43
actually all of those things like that was really important,
16:46
those skills. And then there was a reframe.
16:49
Could. Is there a particular moment
16:50
when that happened or would you say it was more gradual?
16:53
I would say I don't think if there's a particular moment and
16:55
maybe potentially gradual, but more so it definitely was a lot
16:59
in adulthood. Like when I was younger, I
17:01
probably would have never thought.
17:03
I thought these things are just normal, right?
17:05
It's the thing you do. It was nothing else outside of
17:09
that was just the thing you do. And I think actually going and
17:14
the current organization when I am, when I was Co designing and
17:16
Co creating the program and then having first implemented it with
17:20
about 30 young people from three different states, we did this
17:23
activity where often times, right, you know, you do the
17:29
privilege walk. And it's so deficit lens for
17:32
some of us in terms of like there's all these things we
17:36
don't have that's like piling up on top of us that feels like
17:38
we're so behind. And instead we do this asset
17:41
map. And with this asset walk, we
17:43
actually provided different prompts around like if you speak
17:46
a second language, right? If you have another culture, If
17:50
so, we gave all these different things that also make us
17:53
resilient and strong. And from there, it made me also
17:56
realize when we would do this like kind of activity around.
17:59
We have our young people do these journey lines and then
18:03
this journey line, right? It was like, when have you and
18:05
it will have different ages and stages of your life.
18:08
And I have you reflected like when you've been a leader and
18:11
oftentimes you're looking at it like, I, I haven't been a
18:14
leader. What are you talking about?
18:15
Unless you're in this like formal structured role, right?
18:19
And that could be something as like, I'm the captain of the,
18:23
you know, I'm the president of this club or I'm the captain of
18:27
the soccer team, right? Those are often times where we
18:29
see leadership, right, as these actual like positions of quote
18:33
UN quote power, but in reality, right, like you, leadership is
18:37
the fact of where you carry yourself, how you actually
18:39
behave, who's following you, right?
18:41
The things you're doing both for the yourself, right, but also
18:44
for for others. And so we would ask young people
18:47
different prompts. And that's when I realized, wow,
18:48
like I didn't realize I was doing those things.
18:51
But now that I'm reflecting with young people, it also made me
18:54
reflect back on my own journey. And so we would talk about like
18:57
having to take care of your sibling, right?
18:59
Having to translate for your parents and most of us, right,
19:02
because we have so many siblings and things like that.
19:05
Like a lot of the young people that I was with in that space
19:08
resonated with it. And then that's, that's when
19:10
they started to see the clicks for them.
19:12
And so for me, I think it was a lot into adulthood.
19:15
I don't think it was something I reflected on or saw of when I
19:19
was younger, but as I was working in partnership with
19:23
young people and reclaiming what leadership meant and really what
19:28
our identities mean and then how we actually come with a wealth
19:32
of assets into this space. But we may have never thought
19:36
about it because oftentimes they're looked of as deficits,
19:39
right? Like the fact that you have
19:41
like, it's crazy how sometimes it was growing up of like, oh,
19:45
you speak another language or you do like we saw it as this
19:47
deficit. Don't want people to hear my
19:48
accent, right? And things like that.
19:51
But in reality, it's an asset. I mean, I think the US is one of
19:55
the only places that you only speak English, but almost
19:57
everywhere else they speak two to three languages, if not more.
20:01
And so that's where it was like it was through my journey of Co
20:04
designing and Co creating and actually teaching a leadership
20:07
course with young people who come from energy backgrounds
20:10
that I also learned of my own leadership as a young person.
20:16
That's beautiful. I love the the Co design Co, you
20:20
know, like just yeah, Co designing these experiences and
20:25
really engaging in that learning moment because it's very evident
20:28
that both you and the young people were like able to like,
20:33
you know, expand your understanding of leadership,
20:35
really anchor yourselves to your own lived experiences and, and
20:40
show each other, right, That like all of those experiences,
20:43
all of you know, those skills that you have are, are assets,
20:46
right? And I think that we need that,
20:48
that kind of like reframing and especially when it comes to like
20:51
the, the leadership sense, what you said about like we often
20:54
associate leadership with position, right, and, or maybe
20:58
status. And then that ties into power.
21:01
I I think that, you know, that's so prevalent, right?
21:04
Most everyone probably associates that it's like, oh,
21:07
the leader is the one who's on top, the one who's at the front.
21:11
But I think through these questions that you were, you
21:13
know, engaging these young people with and then also asking
21:16
yourself, you, you mentioned about it's about like how you,
21:20
like, how do you carry yourself, right?
21:22
Or like who's following you or who depends on you, right?
21:25
And how are you? And I would go further to say
21:28
like, how are you of service to, to those around you?
21:31
And, and then those kind of tie into this sense of like, you
21:35
know, community, right? And that within, you know, the
21:37
community that you serve, I mean, well, one of, I would
21:40
imagine many others, right? But like, you know, refugee
21:44
populations, because you can speak to that.
21:47
So like, you know, like from your core, you're like, this is
21:50
who I am. And, and like, aren't we all
21:53
just kind of emerging and really bringing out our full potential?
21:57
And, and so the, the, this notion of like, how like
22:01
leadership is so fundamental to, to our daily lives and how we
22:06
can reframe that as something more empowering.
22:09
I think that's really, really needed because I wouldn't, you
22:14
know, when we were in this program, right?
22:15
It was a program at Harvard of all places, and it was in
22:19
leadership. And, and there were still a lot
22:21
of people, you know, who were teachers and they were not
22:24
thinking of themselves as, as leaders.
22:27
And so, yeah, I, I would just like, love to hear a little bit
22:30
more about like, like the, the word leadership itself.
22:34
Like, could you maybe share more about like what, what it means
22:39
to, to to be a leader, especially in the times that
22:41
we're living in right now? And how and is, is it something
22:45
where like everyone should think of themselves as a leader or are
22:48
there certain contexts where it's OK not to, to be a leader?
22:52
I don't know, just wondering. So I think from my perspective,
22:55
I believe all people are leaders at all ages and stages.
23:01
And I'm firm on that in terms of like I said, like great.
23:04
I don't there are these positional leadership.
23:08
We know that they exist. But I've also if you've ever
23:11
heard the word of like everyone could be a manager but not a
23:13
leader because managers manage people but are not actually
23:17
leading them and guiding them towards something.
23:19
And I think that those pieces are very critical to like
23:21
understand. And so you don't have to have a
23:25
title to be a leader. It's the way in which like, what
23:27
are the values and morals that carry you and who you are,
23:30
right? What is the skill sets that you
23:32
have that actually like impacts your work?
23:36
And there's different types of leaders.
23:37
There's the quiet leader, there's the more like vocal
23:40
leader, right? There's the one that's doing
23:42
stuff behind the behind the stage and you don't even realize
23:45
it. But then you actually needed
23:47
them in order to make the work. And so we don't often see these
23:50
people as leaders, but they're all leaders.
23:52
It's about you're not and I even just like you're lame.
23:56
But it's how you own that and how that comes out into the
23:59
space, right? And how you show up.
24:02
At the end of the day, all of us have our own ideas, thoughts,
24:07
and just just all of those things.
24:08
And therefore it's like when you see yourself as a leader, you
24:12
also carry yourself a certain way and knowing also when, when
24:16
to speak up and when, when to take a step back, when, when to
24:19
to follow right, but also when to be the guide.
24:22
Like you don't always have to lead in every single space
24:25
you're in knowing when is it your space?
24:27
When can you do that? And when is it someone else that
24:30
you know, following their guidance, their vision into
24:33
something too. But at the end of the day, we're
24:35
still all leaders because we, we also still have to guide
24:38
ourselves. Like I see, I feel like the
24:39
first part of leadership is the way you lead yourself first,
24:43
right? Because oftentimes leadership is
24:44
like how we guide others, but you can't guide anyone else if
24:48
you can't guide yourself. And so you have strong thing
24:52
within yourself of like, what are my values and morals?
24:55
How do I think about conflict? Do I have a strong understanding
24:58
of myself? Do I know my strengths?
25:00
Do I know my areas of, you know, improvement that I may need?
25:03
Like you have to have those that strong sense of self in order to
25:08
also guide yourself and then to guide others because then you're
25:11
able to see your blind thoughts. You're able to say, Hey, I know
25:14
I'm really strong writer. So I'm going to take lead on the
25:17
writing piece of it, right? Someone asked me to say, I'm
25:20
really strong at the creative piece.
25:21
Can I take can I take lead on the design?
25:24
You see how like that lead is like not only one person has to
25:28
do something. We have to play to our
25:29
strengths. We have to know when to step
25:31
back. You have to know when to step
25:33
forward, right? Someone else may be like, I'm
25:35
really good at project planning, Like I, I can make sure
25:38
everything runs smoothly, all those things, right?
25:40
Like when you know yourself that well at the core, that's going
25:44
to shine through. But when you don't, it's easy to
25:48
like. I feel like often times just
25:50
follow the crowd, even when you may have something great to say.
25:54
Yeah, Well, I mean, I agree 100% with everything you just said.
25:57
Especially I love the whole like behind the scenes, like the
25:59
person way in the back. And that's still being like very
26:03
much leadership because there's there's a larger hole to to all
26:07
of this in terms of like what makes a movement successful,
26:09
what makes an initiative go well.
26:12
And then having that vision as a leader, I think is so is so
26:16
important. And I just yeah, so I just
26:19
really appreciate you sharing all that.
26:22
I did have another thought and it's kind of escaping me at the
26:24
moment. Dang it, because you were
26:27
sharing so many great little like like it's like there's like
26:31
this wisdom piece I think of like, you know, knowing the kind
26:34
of leadership that you want to like, you know, deploy it at
26:38
that moment. And I think that we need Oh, OK,
26:42
they came back to me. So the introspection piece that
26:44
you were talking about was really fascinating for me.
26:47
But my question is like, so like, what is it at least from,
26:50
from your, like, you know, from you, like, what do you do as a
26:54
leader so that you can have that level of introspection to know
26:58
thyself, right? To be able to like understand
27:01
and like kind of figure out not only what your strengths are,
27:04
but also just know like, where are you at in this moment on
27:07
like an emotional and spiritual level, you know, all of that
27:10
stuff. So like, yeah, 'cause then that
27:12
emanates from where you are, and then it gives people, you know,
27:16
ideas of like, how they can undergo their own process of,
27:19
like, really anchoring themselves and understanding
27:21
themselves. So could you maybe speak to
27:23
that? Because I think that's really
27:24
important for us all to be doing.
27:27
Yeah, no, 100%. So I think for me, I'm
27:29
constantly going through this like self reflective stage of
27:31
myself of like, you know, I constantly quarterly, sometimes
27:35
more often than that, do a self-assessment around like
27:38
where am I doing well? Where do I need to grow in?
27:41
But also not just from my own perspective of having
27:44
conversations with others to put a mirror to my face too.
27:46
Of like if I've been working with you very deeply or you know
27:49
me very deeply, can you give me your thoughts and feedback?
27:52
Because the only way that I'm going to grow is also hearing
27:54
from others. Because if I'm just going from
27:56
my own lens, I may not always find spots, right?
28:00
And so it's very critical that we also have those conversations
28:03
with others to give us that critical feedback around like,
28:06
hey, like, you know, in this area, I've noticed like you can
28:09
rule a lot better. Like this conflict came up,
28:11
right? And you didn't handle it this
28:13
type of way. Or maybe you still need to work
28:15
on these skill sets, right? There's the like soft skills,
28:18
hard skills type of thing that we talked about, right?
28:20
And so knowing even within that of like being very frank and
28:23
honest, like, hey, I'm not really good at sometimes
28:26
conflict resolution. I tend to, you know, revert back
28:29
because I'd rather keep the peace, right?
28:32
Or maybe someone or maybe you're like, I'm more passive.
28:35
Like I'll kind of do the whole passive aggression, you know,
28:37
things like that. Like by knowing yourself, right?
28:41
And being, having those honest conversations with yourself
28:44
periodically. And then having others also give
28:47
you strong, like, you know, constructive feedback so that
28:50
you can also continue to improve both within yourself and as how
28:54
you show up for others too, I think is very critical.
28:57
And often times, like most of us, either we're asking folks
29:02
feedback who may not give us honest feedback, right?
29:06
For whatever reason. And maybe those aren't the folks
29:08
you should be asking, or maybe it's something you need to
29:11
change within yourself to give people an open space to give you
29:14
that feedback without feeling like it may be used a certain
29:18
way, right? And so there's a lot of those.
29:21
But I think knowing your circle of people that you can really go
29:23
to, to be able to have those honest conversations with and
29:26
having periodically honest conversations with yourself too,
29:29
I think is important because I don't think we tend to be in
29:33
this like constant self reflective.
29:35
Like it's a reflective practice in itself that you have to learn
29:39
and doing it ongoingly and being OK with what people may say.
29:45
Change is change is difficult though.
29:48
I mean, everything you're saying is like, it's great.
29:50
And you're like, yes, periodic, you know, reflection points and
29:53
like have a trusted inner circle and like really get that honest
29:56
feedback. And, and I think that's the, you
30:00
know, we're, we're, we, we aim towards that.
30:02
But I find the reality for a lot of people, you know, they, they
30:06
think of themselves as a certain kind of leader, this certain
30:09
image, right? And and then anything that kind
30:12
of breaks from that where it shifts, deviates, can feel
30:17
threatening. You know, I'm just speaking
30:19
generally, but I know what's happened with me as well.
30:21
How do you like avoid that? Is that something more with like
30:24
the ego kind of thing? It is the ego thing.
30:26
I think it's definitely ego thing, right?
30:27
It's also sometimes it's easy to revert to what, you know, say
30:31
you're like, I want to be this different leader.
30:33
I want to be collaborative, I want to be XY and Z.
30:35
But the only way you really know you're doing it means that
30:37
you're doing it during those hard times because it's easy to
30:40
do those things when it's easy when the stakes are low, right?
30:44
But it's so much more harder when maybe you have XY and Z
30:49
waiting for certain deadlines for you, right?
30:51
And you're feeling the pressure from a board or you're feeling
30:54
this or you're feeling that right.
30:55
Then you end up reverting back to what you've always known,
30:58
which is maybe you end up micromanaging people, Maybe you
31:01
and however it may be right, because that's but that's where
31:04
at those critical moments. That's why I feel like things
31:06
like coaching, having accountability buddies, things
31:10
like that are so essential and important because then we're
31:13
able to set clear The thing is like, you're not going to be
31:15
able to change everything about yourself at one given moment.
31:19
It's a gradual change. It is something you are
31:22
constantly working on. So I think giving yourself that
31:25
level of grace, like I can't change all the things, but what
31:27
can I focus on today, right? And so whether that's having
31:30
three goals you want to have for this year, you're like, hey,
31:33
this year I really want to focus on these three, these three
31:36
things. And then how can I get maybe an
31:38
accountability partner to help me and coach me along the way
31:41
And I could do the same for somebody else, right?
31:43
And so it is very like it is ego thing, but it's a conscious
31:45
thing that you have to do. You know, there's a level of
31:47
grace that happens within it, but also recognizing I'm not
31:50
going to change in one day, right?
31:53
But the first part is, can I, can I actually name the change
31:57
that needs to happen? And when I go from, can I name
32:00
the change is what are small steps can I do to actually like
32:04
make the change? Can I see when, oh, I'm
32:07
reverting back to my old ways? Let me take a pause, right?
32:10
And we also apologize when I made the mistake instead of
32:13
doing what I've always done. And so it's like really very,
32:16
and it's an intentional practice you have to do and you have to
32:20
set yourself with some small realistic goals because you're
32:22
not going to change at all, or else you're going to revert back
32:25
to what you know. So you got to take a chunk by
32:27
chunk, right? Because you didn't learn those
32:28
habits overnight either. That means it's going to take
32:31
time to reverse it as well. I appreciate what you were
32:35
saying about it. It takes time it make break it
32:38
into small manageable chunks because when you were saying
32:41
about like, yeah, you know, we got to change.
32:43
You got to encounter like, you know, like, I mean, you have to
32:46
take in this like feedback and you have to really like analyze
32:49
the kind of what you're doing. And you know, I was like, oh,
32:52
the anxiety of like, oh, I need to change and be something else.
32:55
And but then it sounds more of like it's like a mindset or it's
32:59
like a lifestyle, right? It's really like a deeper kind
33:02
of like reframing of just how how you operate and how you're
33:06
it's, it's more like fluid. It sounds like, you know, in
33:08
terms of like having the structures, yes, you know, you
33:10
want, you want, if you can have that coach or that trusted
33:13
friend, you know, have that, you know, kind of like quarterly,
33:17
you know, reminder on your phone to like, you know, do that
33:20
reflection and do all of the things.
33:22
But you know, it's it's going to be with this very realistic
33:27
expectation of just like, hey, this is the kind of process that
33:30
you're engaged in. So don't get yourself all like
33:33
wound up over, over nothing. And I'm saying this mostly to
33:36
myself because I think often times that's the sense or like,
33:39
you know, you have a expectation from like that manager or that,
33:43
that boss, right? And then suddenly it there's
33:46
like this conflicting sense of like 1 leader to another or a
33:49
perception of like what they should be doing and what I
33:51
should be doing. And there's like, you know, I
33:53
think a lot of people experience that kind of tension.
33:57
But then there's also like, you know, you can, there can be a
33:59
paralysis and just like I can't do any of it, or there can be
34:03
what you said in terms of like, no, I'm going to take the I'm
34:06
going to take the long road or like to take the long term
34:08
vision, but I'm going to do the steps.
34:10
I'm going to take the steps on my time because everyone learns
34:13
different as well. And so I find that to be very
34:16
helpful advice as well. And yeah, thank you for that,
34:20
Sabrina. And so you know, the, the next
34:22
question I wanted to ask you now kind of relates to this, this
34:26
concept of global citizenship. I, I find like, you know, the
34:29
work that you've done well, the experiences that you've had as
34:32
an immigrant yourself and then the work that you've done with
34:36
supporting refugees and both both at that first job you
34:41
mentioned in Portland, OR right. And then now in in your current
34:45
role over many years, like really getting to that national
34:49
level that you were talking about, really extending that
34:51
impact and making it that very clear, like agenda item that you
34:56
know, you're driving towards, you know, you work with people
34:59
from all different parts of, of the world, right?
35:03
And so, you know, you say the African diaspora, but right, I
35:05
mean, there's such such incredible diversity within all
35:10
of the different countries and even within each country,
35:13
incredible diversity as well that you've been exposed to and
35:16
that you can attest to yourself. I'm, I'm just curious like what,
35:21
what, what are your thoughts in terms of like, like
35:23
understanding that international kind of like lens, but then also
35:28
looking at it from like, OK, I'm trying to build leadership
35:31
capabilities within them so that they can be successful here in
35:34
the US. Can you maybe like unpack a
35:37
little bit of that and like speak to, you know, what it,
35:40
what it, how does like global citizenship kind of enter into
35:43
the conversation with the work that you're doing in leadership?
35:48
I think one thing that is making me think of often times.
35:52
So I do believe that all of us should be global citizens.
35:54
I think we live in a very interconnected world that it's
36:01
actually and just not to to know what's going on in other places
36:05
in many ways. And I say that because
36:08
oftentimes people say that America is a melting pot.
36:12
I don't believe we're a melting pot because melting means that
36:14
we're taking everybody and creating them to be one, right,
36:17
as we melt into one. But in reality, we're a spectrum
36:21
of different colors and a different people, right?
36:23
And we're coming into this space with all of the things that,
36:27
that make us who we are. And so I always think of like,
36:31
for example, right? I hold multiple, I hold multiple
36:35
identities on like with me, right?
36:38
I hold both the history that I have been brought into in the
36:43
US, the history that I have lived with in the US.
36:46
And at the same time, I still hold the history of my country,
36:50
right? And I'm still very much
36:53
connected to like what goes on abroad and what goes on not just
36:56
back home, but in other countries as well.
36:59
And I think with things like technology and just in this like
37:04
changing world that we're in, like I said, we're so much more
37:07
connected than we are before. Now people are work, are living
37:11
in the US and literally working in China, right, or somewhere
37:14
else or people are like back home in Mali and they're working
37:18
in the US, right? And so the game has changed with
37:23
what does it look like to be interconnected in the 1st place.
37:27
And that's just on the connection level, right?
37:29
I mean, even we think about technology, right?
37:31
Like you can go on TikTok and, and Instagram and everything and
37:34
be hearing about things that's happening all across the world.
37:37
That may have not always been the case before, right?
37:40
And so now we're even more interconnected because we're
37:43
hearing about things happening, right?
37:45
We're hearing languages, we're hearing, we're seeing people's
37:48
cultures and dances just through the click of our fingers, right?
37:54
And then that's just one piece of it.
37:55
Then you think about this like interconnectedness of like
37:58
politically, what is happening in the world, right?
38:01
What, what causes forced migration in the 1st place?
38:05
Why do we see certain genocides being funneled with money,
38:08
right? Where is that coming from?
38:10
Who is the impact of it? Why do we see certain groups of
38:13
people migrating here more than others, right?
38:16
And we often ask our questions ourselves, those questions
38:19
around like, you know, like people just want to come and
38:22
take from the US. But like, if you don't know
38:24
what's happening in other countries, you would not know
38:27
why people are coming here in the 1st place or often why some
38:31
of those situations are directly caused by the US, right, or
38:36
other Western countries. So I think that this thing
38:38
around Global Citizen, it's important for all of us to
38:41
embrace it because the reality is that not only are we
38:45
interconnected because of the fact that we know we have now
38:49
more access into what's happening in the world, we're
38:52
working in other places. But also like direct results of
38:55
what's happening in other countries impact us too, or we
38:59
are the culprit of it as well. And I think we have to hold that
39:03
true as well. You know, it's like a complex
39:07
all over the way of saying, but it's, it's very critical and
39:10
important. And then what does that mean for
39:12
our work and how we show up, right?
39:13
And I think that if we're talking just from the US
39:15
context, right, we are a spectrum of different colors
39:18
and, and groups of peoples and identities.
39:20
Therefore, if we do not know someone else's identity, right,
39:24
or where they're coming from, the think about the negative
39:27
impacts that that can cause, right?
39:29
If someone expects all Muslims to be 1 certain way and all of a
39:34
sudden they're not and they wonder, you're not supposed to
39:36
do that. That's not what your religion
39:38
tells you. But then from what perspective
39:41
are you looking at that from, right?
39:43
Or you wonder, are you still surprised where I may speak
39:45
great English, but maybe you don't know that.
39:47
Maybe my home country actually speaks that back home too.
39:52
And so that's the reality of why like and then also, and it
39:55
impacts how we treat people and it in and in very and it can
40:00
create multiple harms and and like impacts on them.
40:03
If you don't know. I mean, I'm just thinking about
40:05
where we are today in the times just keeping it 100.
40:07
Like there is a lot, a lot of things happening in the US
40:10
context. And I mean one.
40:12
Quick thing to say is like immigration and where we have
40:16
large deportation of happening of undocumented immigrants and
40:19
it's not only undocumented folks, it's folks who are
40:22
literally being detained who are citizens.
40:24
But put that part aside and I'm going to go on the education
40:27
context. Think about a young person
40:29
sitting in a classroom who literally has to focus and
40:33
learn. And how do you expand if you
40:35
yourself are not acknowledging that, right?
40:39
Think about the negative impact that that has on that young
40:40
person learning in your classroom.
40:42
And you're wondering why they're not engaged, why they're not
40:45
raising their hand, why they're not doing their homework.
40:48
And this is just one, like example because of what's
40:50
happening today. Or I think about the everything
40:52
that's been happening with Israel and Palestine and you
40:54
wonder why a Palestinian kid is sitting in class and is also
40:57
disengaged because what's happening abroad is impacting
41:01
them today, right? Think about a person in Sudan or
41:06
in other other places that I can bring.
41:07
Like there's so many things that are happening abroad are
41:10
impacting our youth and families in the States.
41:14
And if we do not acknowledge that and if we do not understand
41:17
it, know about it, then the harmful impacts it has on those
41:21
young people and their families or even someone you work with,
41:25
you may wonder why is, you know, your Co worker no longer showing
41:30
up? What happened to them, right?
41:33
Or why are they always sad or whatever it may be, right?
41:37
Or all of a sudden? I mean, I've heard stories where
41:40
people are like, yeah, I came to work and all my, some of my Co
41:42
workers were gone. Because you never know that
41:44
they, you never know that they were probably undocumented,
41:48
right? For valid reasons.
41:50
But it, it, the point to get to is that we are such different
41:56
people coming into this space and the things that happen
42:00
abroad are impacting the things that are happening here.
42:03
And I just think it's a disservice for us not to
42:07
acknowledge it. And not only that, but we also
42:10
know, right, just in terms of education, when we don't teach
42:13
other people's histories, the impact that that has on them
42:16
too, by design, right? And so when you're literally
42:20
having all different groups of kids from different backgrounds
42:23
and you don't teach them about those different backgrounds,
42:25
those different religions, cultures, you know, all of those
42:29
things, the negative impacts that that has on those young
42:31
people growing up, right? That's why I think it's
42:36
essential and important for us to be global citizens, which we
42:40
know at this very time. It's a piece that we're trying
42:43
to erase in many ways, but the reality is you can't erase
42:47
what's already here. For example, we embrace it.
42:52
Yeah, thank you so much, Sabrina, for for sharing all of
42:55
that. And you know what you're talking
42:57
about. And the interconnected piece,
43:00
the the holding multiple identities and like histories
43:03
acknowledging that, oh, are you still there?
43:08
Yeah, OK, OK. No worries, you know it.
43:11
What, what it got me thinking about was the, the Nigerian
43:14
writer Shimamanda Adichie and like the danger of like the
43:18
single story. And so, you know, not shying
43:20
away from, but like really leaning into, right, the
43:24
curiosity piece of like, you know, what, what, what is your
43:27
story? You know, where, where do you
43:29
come from? Of course, you know, if you just
43:31
kind of shout at someone, tell me your story, that's not really
43:34
going to bode well. But you know, having that kind
43:37
of rapport to like build trust, right, extend that, that that
43:41
curiosity in a way that truly respects where they're coming
43:44
from. And I think that we need to kind
43:46
of create more of those kinds of bridges or maybe the just the
43:49
common ground that we're standing on to engage in a way
43:53
where we're able to like slowly but surely have that deeper
43:57
appreciation of of like where people are coming from.
44:01
And then from there, having that deeper sense of compassion and
44:04
sense that like, wow, I'd had no idea that that now, you know,
44:08
given where you're at and like who you are, you're being
44:12
subjected to larger forces that in many ways, it's, it's, it's
44:17
hostile and it's violent and it's, it's trying to, you know,
44:20
take them away from the place that they call home now.
44:24
And, and no one should, should have experienced that, right.
44:27
And so I think, you know, the piece of being a global citizen
44:31
and really embracing those and like having the courage to ask
44:34
those questions is, is something that, you know, you really, you
44:38
really like keyed in on. So I appreciate you for sharing
44:40
that. And I just appreciate you in
44:42
general for the work that you're doing.
44:44
And you're amazing. Sabrina and I, I learned so much
44:48
more about what it, what's really driving you in, in the
44:51
work that you're doing right now.
44:53
So I, I, I wish you all the best as you continue that work.
44:56
And we are coming up to the end of our conversation,
44:59
unfortunately. And I wanted to ask you a
45:01
question, last question, it's book recommendation or any
45:05
recommendation for that matter. So I'd love to hear your
45:07
thoughts. So I'm going to keep it
45:09
different. I'm not going to give a book
45:10
recommendation or a movie, but here's what I will say.
45:13
I think that it's important and critical that people take an
45:16
opportunity to learn about different folks.
45:17
So go try out someone's food, watch their movies in their
45:21
actual native tongue, and put on your subtitles for you, right?
45:25
Like find ways to embrace and learn about other people.
45:29
Because only then do we actually make the movement towards being
45:33
global citizens. That, I think, is essential and
45:36
important. Music.