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EP2: Joy O'Neal - The Red Barn - AL, USA · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
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  New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
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  Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
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  You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
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  Here on Equine Assisted World.
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  We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
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  established in the equine assisted field.
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  This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
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  physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
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  These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
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  Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
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  welcome back to Equine Assisted World, where we look at the, amazing mosaic
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  of, how horses help humans, and how it's evolved from its early days
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  with therapeutic riding and assisted riding into the super complex world
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  of neuropsych and, emotional, conditions and all points in between.
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  This week I've got a phenomenal guest.
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  This is Joy O'Neill, who runs Red Barn in Birmingham, Alabama.
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  And, if you live in the usa, you know, Alabama's always
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  one of the forgotten states.
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  And people often don't expect to see cutting edge work come out of there,
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  but often it does look at Huntsville, for example, the tech center and, you
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  know, the amazing work they do at the university in Tuscaloosa and so on.
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  And Red Barn is no exception.
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  I've been following the, the progress of that work there forever, a
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  decade now, and, where it really, excels and goes to the cutting edge.
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  he actually does this in many ways, but, there is a real, there were one of
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  the early pioneers in work with trauma.
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  And now of course it's a relatively common thing to find people working,
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  with horses and trauma and so on.
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  But really red, bam, were one of the first to get into it on a, on a really,
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  Deep level and their, work with, JC Dugard who I will let Joy talk about
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  if you don't know who she is and now their work with polyvagal theory and
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  the vagal nerve and all of this, it's, it's, it's gone from the, oh, let's
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  look at this thing and because we know that it works, to now knowing the
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  science behind it, and, it's really a, a beacon, within the American Southeast
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  and I'd say within the US in general for how this type of work should look.
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  And Joy is a really interesting, person to be doing this cuz she
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  didn't come from that background yet.
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  When you go out to Red Barn, it looks so beautiful.
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  It's one of these beautifully manicured places.
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  You think, oh, it's gonna be like a fancy hunter jumper barn.
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  And then you go in there and it's like, oh no, they do this really interesting work.
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  But.
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  They all ride really well.
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  That's interesting.
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  So they also have a showing background.
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  But Joy's background wasn't with horses originally at all,
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  nor really with neuropsych.
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  So, and then Joy also has her own work that she does, representing
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  women with, heart conditions, which she will let you know about because
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  that's another rather forgotten world.
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  We generally think about heart conditions as, a male preserve.
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  But of course it isn't.
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  So without further ado, joy, welcome.
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  Joy ONeil: Thank you so much for having me and for all your kind words.
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  I hope I can live up to them.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's that very modesty, which as you know,
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  makes you do all that amazing work.
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  So tell us who you are.
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  Where did you begin?
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  Where were you born?
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  Where'd you go to school and how'd you get into this funny old horse thing?
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  Oh
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  Joy ONeil: my goodness.
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  It's a, gosh, I'm not even sure where to start.
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  If I start rambling, you'll just have to tell me and tell me to move on.
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  Not to, not to go too much, but, I was born in Birmingham, Alabama.
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  I've lived here my entire life and, my mother was married to, in
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  a very abusive relationship and, it was a horrible relationship.
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  She left when I was very young and we moved in with my grandparents
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  and lived there for quite a while.
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  And then my mom remarried and we moved around a lot.
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  And so I went to eight different schools when I was growing up
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  and, never in any of that time had anything to do with horses.
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  Kind of fast forward many, many years.
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  Got married and my, my two children and I, got.
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  To be part of this blended family.
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  And we were, one, one spring break.
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  We were gonna take all the kids on a trip to Disney World, and we decided
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  that we just absolutely would not be strong enough to survive a trip,
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  even to the happiest place on Earth.
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  And so we canceled the trip and we let each of the five children pick
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  something that they wanted to do.
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  And so my oldest child, Alexis, decided that she wanted to go ride horses.
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  And so we all went as a family to go ride horses.
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  I.
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  And, while we were there, Emmett and I just kind of looked at each other
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  and noticed that all the kids were getting along and that that was very
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  unusual for them to, to all be together.
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  And it was something new for our entire family.
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  None of us really had a whole lot of experience for it.
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  And, just from that one, that one thing, we just started going back to the barn
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  for the kids to take riding lessons.
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  And one thing just kind of led to another and I saw firsthand how great horses
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  were for kids who had disabilities.
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  And, that was kind of what started at all was not going to.
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  So, okay.
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  So,
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  Rupert Isaacson: so the moral of the stories don't go to Izzy.
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  Well spend your dogs on horses.
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  Yes.
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  I think we can order on that one.
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  Yeah.
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  But so very interesting.
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  So right from the get go there you are in a difficult situation.
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  You have kids from another relationship.
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  You've now blended those kids.
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  Into a family, maybe it's a little rocky.
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  And the thing that Yeah.
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  Brings them together is horses.
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  Joy ONeil: Correct?
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, there was a lot of stuff that happened kind of in between,
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  you know, there, but no doubt.
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  Didn't know how long you, how much you wanted to get into.
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  Well, we,
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  Rupert Isaacson: we, we want to know the full story.
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  We, we want, we want, you know, the Game of Thrones version,
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  but obviously, oh my goodness.
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  You know, it's, it's whatever you feel comfortable sharing and, but the,
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  the, what stands out from that story is that in that difficult situation
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  and kids in blended families, you know, it's, it isn't all roses.
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  We know this.
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  It's wonderful what horses can do to unite people, I feel, and, help 'em find
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  their sort of tribe, their, you know, their, their, their functional family.
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  Because everyone.
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  Sort of concentrates on that job together.
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  But you say Alexis, your oldest daughter, so she was the one you felt who really
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  took to it initially the most, but the others also of the five kids.
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  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
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  All five of our kids rode when, when they were little, when Emmett and I
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  were married, the kids were, he had a 10 year and eight old, this was six.
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  I had a four year old, and then he had a three year old,
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  so 5, 10, 8, 6, 4, and three.
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  And we all began to ride horses together and it just really was a great, just
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  a great way for us to be outside.
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  I feel lucky that at that, at that timeframe, kids didn't have
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  as much access to cell phones and iPads and so many electronics.
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  So we really were just out at the barn together, learning
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  together and, and I think.
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  You know, one, one of the things I know now, that I didn't know then
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  it just sort of happened, is that there's this concept that, Dr.
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  Rebecca Bailey from transitioning families in the Polyvagal Institute
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  talks about, and that is the, the therapeutic dose of a conversation.
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  And it's really just a few seconds.
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  And so as I was trying to get to know my stepchildren, and we were, you know,
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  just talking or kind of going through some, the, the difficult times of being
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  in a blended family, which I had also grown up in a blended family, so I, I
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  had an appreciation of what they were going through, but it's that therapeutic
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  dose of just a few seconds, you know?
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  So as we are maybe grooming a horse side by side, Not having
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  direct eye contact that can feel sort of like a lot of pressure.
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  You're just sort of doing something and learning something
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  together in a relaxed atmosphere.
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  When you're outdoors, you hear the birds chirping.
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  You have that support of the, the community around you, like you mentioned a
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  found family and the warmth of the horse.
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  And then also what we know about, now with people just slowing their
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  breathing to match the breaths of the horse and the electromagnetic field of
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  the horse's heart and its heartbeat, of which I'm certainly not an expert.
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  But, just all of those things combined just really helped us to develop
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  relationships and, to spend time together in a happy, in a happy place.
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  How long did
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  Rupert Isaacson: you find it took, for the harmony that you were finding when
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  you guys went together to the horses to transfer back to your life in the home?
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  Joy ONeil: Oh goodness.
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  Well, you know, that's a really complicated question because at the ages
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  that the kids were at that time, 10, 8, 6, 4, and three, if you think about the
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  eight, as they became older, those are just naturally more difficult ages, right?
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  Like, ask anybody with five teenagers in their home how much harmony there is.
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  So it's you, you know, I, I don't, I certainly don't wanna give the impression
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  that it's like, oh, we all went out and groomed horses and everything was fine.
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  Never had any problems.
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  Cuz we certainly had, you know, a lot of problems with five teenagers
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  in the house all at one time.
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  But I'll say that now that the youngest is in their thirties, It's really, I,
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  I think it's like just the other week we were, we were talking about it, you
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  know, they're, they're starting their own families and having children of their own.
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  And so now they're coming back and going, oh my gosh, I remember how
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  we used to do X, y, and Z together.
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  And I'm like, I think I vaguely remember that, but I thought that
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  you were like in the car throwing a fit cuz you didn't want to do that.
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  Or, you know, you were pouting or you didn't really like it.
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  And so I, I think one of the, the fun funner things about getting
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  older is being able to relate to your children on a new and different level.
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  And to look back and relive those times, and see that even things that you didn't
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  think really meant a lot to them at, in that moment, because maybe they
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  were like extra teenager at that time.
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  That it really does pay off and it help draws you together later in the
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  Rupert Isaacson: end.
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  Yeah, sure.
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  I think a lot of us when we're teenagers, While we're pouting and throwing
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  fits, we sort of assume that our parents know that underneath all that
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  we sort of actually do quite dig it.
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  And, and the parents, of course are, are completely mystified
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  thinking, no, actually I thought you were just a really terrible mood.
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  And there, there goes one of God's great jokes about how
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  humans misunderstand each other.
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  But how did you go from, I, I love this, term you used about, the, the
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  therapeutic dose of a conversation.
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  How, how did, how did you transition from that then into suddenly running?
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  Cause I'm sure it wasn't sudden this therapeutic barn.
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  Please talk us through that chronology.
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  Joy ONeil: Okay.
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  So the kids all started riding horses, and so of course we, I was
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  there with them in a part of it.
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  And it was something like I mentioned all five of the kids.
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  They were, they picked, they got involved in other activities and
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  just one thing kinda led to another.
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  And, but when we were really in the thick of it, we decided that
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  we wanted to purchase some land and keep horses there ourselves.
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  And, and the more that we learned about horses, the more that we
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  realized that the place where we were taking the kids to have the riding
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  lessons wasn't in the best of shape.
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  And they were very hardworking.
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  And we really wanted to do something to, to make it possible
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  for more and more people to, to experience what we had discovered.
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  And so the, the person who I considered kind of my, one of my main
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  mentors, her name was Anita Coward.
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  And, I was talking to Ms.
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  Coward about it and I said like, you know, we found this land.
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  Would you go with us to look at it?
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  And we're thinking about buying it to keep horses there and, you know, if you
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  wanted to operate out of this, you could.
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  And so we met Ms.
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  Coward and we were driving down to look at the barn at the property here.
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  And Ms.
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  Cower just began to cry, and I couldn't figure out what was going on or about her.
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  And then she backed up a little bit, told me the, the story about, many,
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  many, many years in the sixties ago when her daughter was killed in a car wreck.
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  And Ms.
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  Cower was just devastated because her daughter was her, her best friend,
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  her, you know, her only daughter.
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  She had three sons.
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  But there was just something special about having a daughter, and she was, Ms.
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  Cower was.
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  Just upset and angry with the Lord.
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  And so she stopped on this very property where we were
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  located and, stopped and prayed.
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  There's a really peaceful spot down by the river.
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  And so she stopped and prayed there and she asked God to take the hurt away
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  from her so that her anger wouldn't be seen as a lack of faith, but that
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  she would still be able to find a way to, to show everyone that she trusted
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  the Lord even in this hard times.
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  And so she remembered the Bible verse that said, when things are given up
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  to and still glorify the Lord, that they can be returned a hundred fold.
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  And so she writes in her journal about, kind of having this argument
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  with God and she describes it to like wrestling with them.
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  And she's like, okay, I don't want just a hundred fold more daughters.
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  I want a thousand fold more daughters.
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  And so more and more her daughter's friends kept coming
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  to their house to ride horses.
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  And of course the boys will tell you it's because they were handsome
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  and charming and, and they are.
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  But if you talk to the girls, they say it's mainly because of the horses.
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  And so one by one, all those, all those families just kept coming to ride with Ms.
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  Coward.
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  And of course, Ms.
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  Coward moved at several times throughout that until one day that was our family.
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  And so,
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  Rupert Isaacson: and Ms.
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  Cart was the person you'd been riding with all this time with your kids?
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  Joy ONeil: Right.
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  She had owned the, the barn.
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  She was the founder of the, the barn where they had ridden.
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  And so, as she got older, she sold the barn to someone else who, who ran it.
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  And, my kids got older and they had other interests.
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  And Ms.
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  Cower and I would walk around the property and just talk about how much it had meant.
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  And our family went through a really, really difficult time.
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  And I, you know, I told Ms.
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  Coward, I felt like the barn saved, saved my life.
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  You know, just having that sense of peace and, being there and the
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  relationship that I had with our children, I felt like it wouldn't have
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  been possible and how lucky I had felt because horses are very expensive.
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  And through some course of volunteer work that I had done, you know, I really
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  realized that it, like if there were so many people who wouldn't ordinarily
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  have access to this, And so Ms.
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  Coward and I talked about using the back half of the property to
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  set up a therapeutic program for people who would not otherwise be
• 16:01
  able to afford to work with horses.
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  And but it was always just kind of a dream, sort of like this, this thought.
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  And so, but, and nothing really happened about it.
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  And then, I was, went through a really difficult time physically
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  and the doctors could not figure out what was going on with me.
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  And, they started mentioning something, this little disease called Lou
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  Gehrig's Disease and I was terrified.
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  Cause the thought of being diagnosed with Lou Gehrigs was,
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  just, oh, it was just awful.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Talk us to Lou Gehrigs, for those of those
• 16:39
  of us who dunno what it is.
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  What is Luke Ericks?
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  Joy ONeil: It is, a l s so your body sort of shuts down and you
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  become like a prisoner in your own body, even though your mind is fine.
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  It's, what Stephen Hawking has
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  Rupert Isaacson: the motor neuron, wasting.
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  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And so, I was just terrified.
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  And so I have this big old scar on the arm right here where they did
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  a, muscle biopsy and I had to wait to get the results of that biopsy.
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  And it, while I was waiting, I was like, oh, dear God, please, please, please
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  don't let this be what they think it is.
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  If it's not what they think it is.
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  Like, if it's not Lou Gehrigs, I promise I will, I will start the barn that Ms.
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  Coward and I dreamed about before she died.
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  Like, I'll do anything.
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  Just like, please don't let this be, please don't let this be.
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  And sure enough, it ended up that's not what it was.
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  And so I felt like I had needed to keep my end of the.
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  Keep my end of the promise.
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  And so that's what prompted me to, to live out Ms.
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  Coward's, vision that she and I had walked, talked about as
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  we walked around the property.
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  There's a, a little red barn on the backside of the property
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  that wasn't used very much.
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  And, she had this vision that children who had afflictions as she called it, being
• 17:59
  from her generation, that they would walk through this barn and that they would
• 18:04
  be healed as they worked with horses.
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  And she kind of compared it to a car wash that they would like, walk through the
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  barn like it was a car wash, be healed and come out on the other side dancing
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  and happy and just, just full of life.
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  And so that's what.
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  That's what I set out to do after that when I found out that I did
• 18:24
  not have Lou Gehrig's disease.
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  And so I went back to school and got a degree in nonprofit, administration,
• 18:31
  and we opened up in 2011 and then got our nonprofit certification in 2012.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Now, up until that point, you've been keeping horses.
• 18:44
  Your, your kids have been showing.
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  Right.
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  Alexis became a show rider.
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  Joy ONeil: All of the, all of the children showed for a while.
• 18:51
  She was the one who has, continued to do it for the longest, but
• 18:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 18:56
  And still does it to this day.
• 18:58
  It still does.
• 18:59
  Yeah, she does.
• 19:00
  Right.
• 19:00
  So you'd gone through this thing, so you, you'd had, you'd found
• 19:03
  family healing through it then.
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  Your kids found, you know, their, their sport world through it.
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  Some moved on, some kept going, but you still retained this vision
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  that you'd had, with Anita Coward.
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  When you decided to open, had you limbed up by doing like some volunteer work here
• 19:24
  and there, had you sort of tested out your, your therapeutic biceps at all?
• 19:31
  Did you just jump in cold?
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  How'd it happen?
• 19:34
  Joy ONeil: Well, I had been a barn mom, you know, with all five of the kids
• 19:38
  showing horses and riding and doing all sort, you know, all of that kind of stuff.
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  So I, I was, I thought I'll put it that way, at least I thought I was
• 19:47
  pretty, new, knew more, at least than I had ever known at that point,
• 19:51
  up until then in my life about it.
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  I felt like I had a good education at uav.
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  Just sort of teach me the ins and outs of it.
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  I had volunteered for many, many years, at different places,
• 20:03
  particularly a homeless shelter, which of course makes you infinitely
• 20:07
  qualified to go start a barn, right?
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  So I volunteered at a homeless shelter.
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  I'd done a lot of programs with kids.
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  You know, I, I really did though feel like everything in my life was
• 20:22
  leading me to that point, you know?
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  And of course I, I wouldn't say I knew exactly what I was getting myself
• 20:28
  into because then I might not have done it cuz it was a whole lot harder
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  and a whole lot more work and a whole lot more difficult than anything I,
• 20:36
  that I ever thought that I would do.
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  So I was sort of very, blessed with the gift of ignorance in some ways.
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  But I think it's, I.
• 20:45
  I, I just do, I just feel like every single thing in my life, even all
• 20:49
  of the hard parts in the difficult childhood that I had, and some difficult
• 20:53
  experiences that I had been through, that they had prepared me for that.
• 20:57
  And, and I feel like one of the greatest gifts that I had
• 21:01
  was, the support of my family.
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  And I, I certainly don't mean to my extended family, and I, I don't mean
• 21:07
  to say that our, that my extended family hasn't been through some
• 21:10
  difficult times because we have.
• 21:12
  But I think what makes it unique is that we have all stuck by each other through
• 21:17
  those difficult times, and that I have never doubted that I was loved and I've
• 21:23
  never doubted that they would support me.
• 21:26
  And whether that was when I had kind of this crazy idea of starting
• 21:29
  this therapeutic barn, you know, my cousins brought their kids out and
• 21:32
  we practiced on them to, to, to let them ride horses and practice some of
• 21:37
  the different activities that we did.
• 21:40
  And, It just all, it's just all worked out.
• 21:43
  Rupert Isaacson: So you dive in cold and you feel okay, I sort of know
• 21:50
  kind of what I'm doing, then what happens, but not really who, who,
• 21:54
  who, who are the, you know, have you had much experience with, kids, with
• 21:59
  physical and, and mental challenges?
• 22:01
  Do you know how to get 'em on a horse?
• 22:02
  Have you, have you had any formal training or do you just kind of
• 22:05
  go, well, we'll give it a go.
• 22:07
  How does it go?
• 22:08
  Joy ONeil: I'll give it a go.
• 22:09
  I would say some of yes and no.
• 22:12
  Some of, no.
• 22:13
  So when I was growing up, there were a lot of people in my life who
• 22:18
  had disabilities and I never really thought of them as any different.
• 22:23
  And, you know, just, here's a, a little story.
• 22:26
  So I grew up in this really small town way out in the middle of
• 22:29
  nowhere in the middle of the country.
• 22:31
  And the biggest thing to do was to go to the baseball field and
• 22:35
  watch the youth sports baseball.
• 22:37
  And this field was named Billy Joe Field.
• 22:39
  Billy Joe Young Field.
• 22:41
  And so Billy Joe Young was a guy who, when he was in high school, in
• 22:46
  a freak football accident, became paralyzed from the neck down.
• 22:51
  And, but he still loves sports.
• 22:53
  And so Billy Joe's mama would, drive him up to Billy Joe Young Field that was
• 22:58
  named in his, in his honor and behind home plate, they had this big concrete block
• 23:07
  rectangle, and she had this big old yellow suburban and he lived in a hospital bed.
• 23:14
  And so she would back up to that, roll his hospital bed out behind home
• 23:20
  plate and a microphone was hanging from the ceiling and he would.
• 23:25
  Call and announce the games.
• 23:27
  Now he, I wish, I know this is a podcast so people can't see it,
• 23:31
  but he had very little motion with his arms that he could talk.
• 23:35
  He was a talker, a talker, a talker.
• 23:37
  And so when I was little, some of my very first memories were going to sit and
• 23:41
  watch those baseball games while Billy Joe called him out and feed him a hotdog.
• 23:47
  And if you were a really, like, if you got, you felt lucky if you were the
• 23:51
  chosen person to get to go feed Billy Jo a hotdog and learn how to, keep
• 23:58
  the scorebook for the baseball field.
• 24:00
  Like I never thought of Billy Joe as anything other than.
• 24:05
  A great, a great person and, and like I was not ever raised to think
• 24:11
  that just because somebody was in a wheelchair or paralyzed from the neck
• 24:15
  down or, or different, and, you know, there were certainly people that now
• 24:19
  I look back and I'm like, oh, I bet if autism diagnosis had been around
• 24:23
  or more known, then that's what, you know, uncle so-and-so would've been.
• 24:28
  Or that's what so-and-so like, like, it just never occurred to us that
• 24:33
  somebody that was different was less than, my uncle, David's sister had
• 24:40
  polio and so she was, you know, in a wheelchair and sort of bent over.
• 24:43
  And my, my grandmother's Aunt Cora, you know, came over to her house
• 24:47
  and she was also in a wheelchair.
• 24:48
  My, all of my family worked on the coal mines and at that time, safety
• 24:52
  wasn't as, common maybe as it is now.
• 24:56
  And so there were lots of people who were missing fingers and parts of their legs
• 24:59
  or arms, and it just never occurred to me.
• 25:02
  That they were less than or that they couldn't do, anything that
• 25:06
  they really set their mind to.
• 25:07
  You know, if it was possible to do it without a leg or without three of your
• 25:11
  fingers or something, you know, like it was just So who were your first,
• 25:14
  it was just a great way to be raised.
• 25:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Who, who were your first clients when they
• 25:17
  came in through your door?
• 25:19
  You opened the doors of Red Barn.
• 25:20
  Who comes in?
• 25:22
  Joy ONeil: So, when I was first talking about, about opening up the barn, Alexis
• 25:27
  was going to school at Birmingham Southern or to college at Birmingham Southern.
• 25:32
  And she had had a speaker come to her class and talk about autism.
• 25:36
  And so when, Alexis and I were talking about the barn and my
• 25:39
  vision, she said, I think you should start by going to meet this person.
• 25:45
  Her name was Sandy Nemore and she was the executive director at a
• 25:48
  place called Mitchell's Place.
• 25:50
  And she said, I think you should go talk to her and see about having some
• 25:54
  of their students come out and be.
• 25:57
  Like the first groups that you work with?
• 25:59
  So it was actually someone, with autism, whose name was Reid.
• 26:03
  Okay.
• 26:04
  And he, I, you know, I went and met with Sandy.
• 26:06
  She's like, sure, I'll put up some posters.
• 26:09
  And so Reid's mom saw it and, and she brought Reid one day.
• 26:13
  And, I had hired someone who was going to be a, who was a therapeutic
• 26:18
  horseback riding instructor.
• 26:19
  But she left the week before, like we had made the appointment with Reid
• 26:25
  and then she, she decided to leave.
• 26:29
  And I didn't know how to get in touch with Reed's mom.
• 26:34
  So like I, I just like talked to her on the phone.
• 26:37
  I had not written down her phone number, so I did know
• 26:39
  how to cancel the appointment.
• 26:41
  Because the instructor had left.
• 26:43
  And so I called Alexis and I was like, Hey, I like, I'm gonna feel really bad.
• 26:47
  Will you come be here with me?
• 26:49
  This lady's coming, you know, I'll explain to her that we're probably gonna
• 26:52
  have to close because the employee that we hired isn't gonna be able to do it.
• 26:56
  Will you like, you know, so we'll just come.
• 26:58
  So I had every intention of closing that very first day, cuz I just
• 27:03
  felt like I'd already failed.
• 27:05
  And so Reid's mom gets here and Reid gets out of the car and I look at his
• 27:09
  precious face and he is just so excited.
• 27:13
  And all he wants to do is just pet and touch the horse.
• 27:15
  And I, I just look at him and I just, I couldn't tell her that we were closing.
• 27:21
  And it, that's what really gave me at, like, I tear up even just thinking
• 27:25
  about it, but it was, it was like in that moment I thought even though I
• 27:29
  don't have a clue what to do next.
• 27:34
  I know that I've got to do whatever the next step is because this
• 27:38
  little kid is worth it and all he wants to do is pet a horse.
• 27:42
  And I know enough to let him do that.
• 27:44
  I'll figure the rest out as we go along.
• 27:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Now, as you know, then one begins to look
• 27:50
  into all the methodologies and trainings and go, oh my gosh.
• 27:54
  It's, you know, it's, it's a confusing world there.
• 27:56
  Do I, do I choose this one?
• 27:58
  Do I choose that one?
• 27:59
  They all seem to say that they're the right one or the only one.
• 28:03
  So how do I make that choice?
• 28:05
  So did you then decide, okay, I'm gonna look for some sort of
• 28:09
  more formalized training, and if so, what did you choose and why?
• 28:14
  Or did you just feel your way or was it a mixture of both?
• 28:18
  How did it evolve?
• 28:21
  Joy ONeil: It's a mixture of both.
• 28:22
  I would say that I'm not very, a very impulsive person, but I do.
• 28:29
  And I do like to do a lot of research, like look things and, analyze it.
• 28:34
  But I, I'm also though very intuitive, so I may spend weeks researching things
• 28:39
  and then go, but I feel like doing this.
• 28:42
  So, like I, I just wanna make an informed intuitive decision.
• 28:47
  And, so I just began to learn as much about autism as I could after going to
• 28:52
  to talk with sanity and meeting Reid.
• 28:54
  And, one day my Uncle David called me and he, he knew that I was learning more about
• 29:00
  autism and he actually saw an interview by you on one of the Sunday night TV shows.
• 29:07
  And he called me up.
• 29:09
  He's like, quick, quick turn on your tv.
• 29:10
  There's this guy and he's talking about autism.
• 29:12
  And he went all the way to Mongolia and like he's doing stuff with horses.
• 29:17
  You need to learn more about him.
• 29:19
  And so I did from that very beginning, and I know it's kind of weird to think about,
• 29:23
  but that was way back in, I guess like 2010, 2011, you know, within those years.
• 29:31
  And, it's not like it is today where you can just Google everything
• 29:34
  and you know, everybody's got a website, you know, it was much harder
• 29:38
  to learn about things back then.
• 29:40
  And so, and then you came and spoke at like, just a few months later you came
• 29:44
  and spoke at something in Birmingham and I recognized your name and that
• 29:48
  was the first time that we met.
• 29:51
  And, and so I, I immediately learned about Horse Boy and there was a lot in it
• 29:57
  that I felt like was just common sense.
• 29:59
  It just really resonated with me that you find something
• 30:02
  that somebody is interested in.
• 30:05
  And you tie that together with being outdoors and with, with
• 30:10
  mainly love in them, which was Ms.
• 30:13
  Cowart's, I guess kind of her, her theme in her life was that love,
• 30:17
  like if you love somebody, you will do what is the best for them.
• 30:22
  Even that may sometimes be a hard thing to do, but if you love somebody, you
• 30:27
  will do what's best and, and you'll help them in whatever ways you could.
• 30:32
  And just that sense of giving somebody that felt like they didn't
• 30:37
  belong a place where they belonged.
• 30:40
  And because I went to so many different schools and we moved so
• 30:45
  much when I was growing up, you know, I always had that sense of
• 30:51
  going back to my grandmother's house.
• 30:53
  That was that one place where I felt like, This is where I belong.
• 30:56
  This is, you know, like, like this is, this is it.
• 31:00
  No matter where I was, I loved the little house on the furry books.
• 31:03
  But when I was growing up, because those were the things, no matter
• 31:07
  where Laura moved, she always had, you know, her family with
• 31:11
  her no matter what was going on.
• 31:13
  And I really wanted to provide that for kids who felt like they
• 31:16
  didn't fit in because for so much of my life I had felt like I didn't
• 31:22
  really have a place where I fit in.
• 31:25
  Where it was easy, it was always hard for me to make friends cuz we moved so much.
• 31:29
  It was, our, our family was, I would say very poor and a lot of the time.
• 31:37
  And, you know, not having the things that everybody else had or
• 31:41
  not being able to afford to go.
• 31:43
  Sometimes even on school field trips, like there might be times I
• 31:46
  couldn't even afford to go on that.
• 31:47
  And you know, you're the one kid who doesn't get to go.
• 31:51
  Do those other things.
• 31:53
  Everybody else is, and they're like, why didn't you go?
• 31:54
  It's like, oh, I didn't wanna go.
• 31:56
  Like, well, I wouldn't, I'd never wanna go do that.
• 31:58
  But, deep inside you're going, oh my gosh, I wish I could afford to do those things.
• 32:03
  But, it, it's like, I mean, I know it sounds kind of hokey or like a, like
• 32:09
  silly or whatever, but I just felt this desire to do it, even though it made
• 32:18
  no logical sense whatsoever at all.
• 32:21
  It was just something that I could not let go of.
• 32:25
  I just did not have any peace within my soul unless I was planning to do this.
• 32:29
  And I'm so grateful to my wonderful husband, who had the resources to
• 32:35
  help me make that dream come true.
• 32:37
  Because in doing that, I feel like it healed a lot of the things inside of
• 32:42
  me to be able to, to make that happen.
• 32:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's, let's talk about how that
• 32:49
  side of the work has evolved.
• 32:51
  You, you've become, one of the places that people look to in the American Southeast
• 32:58
  when it comes to autism for sure.
• 33:01
  How you also have this other really interesting, side to the work at Red Barn.
• 33:07
  And, you know, through your partnerships with JC Dugard and now, Rebecca at
• 33:13
  the, poly Equine Polyvagal Institute.
• 33:16
  I wonder if you could talk to us about that.
• 33:19
  Not every, not every, listener here is gonna know who JC Dugard is.
• 33:22
  So could you start with her story and then how you got into
• 33:26
  doing the work you do with her?
• 33:29
  Sure.
• 33:30
  Joy ONeil: So, gosh, I was trying to remember the year.
• 33:38
  It might have been like 2013 or 14.
• 33:40
  We had a very freak snowstorm in Alabama, we don't get a whole lot of snow, so
• 33:47
  there was snow and ice and everybody at the barn, like the roads went from
• 33:54
  perfectly fine to being undrivable within just a matter of two hours.
• 34:00
  Kids were unable to get outta school.
• 34:03
  School teachers had to spend the night with children in their classrooms.
• 34:06
  It was like a once a century freak thing that happened where
• 34:12
  the roads were impassable.
• 34:14
  Everybody just had to kind of hunker down where they were.
• 34:17
  So there were about 12 of us at the barn that day, and we had to
• 34:22
  end up all spending the night here and for a couple of days becau like
• 34:28
  that's how long that it lasted.
• 34:30
  Although I, I joke sometimes that, I think it was more like a month, but
• 34:33
  it was really just an, a few nights.
• 34:35
  But, and so like, all these people are here and what are we gonna do?
• 34:39
  So I began to just research things, try to find some videos or movies that
• 34:46
  we could watch, to make the best use of that time because everybody was
• 34:50
  getting really anxious and worried.
• 34:52
  And I felt like if I could do something that would keep everybody busy, they would
• 34:57
  be able to, to cope a little bit better.
• 34:59
  So I came across a story of JC Dugard because, she was being
• 35:04
  interviewed by Oprah Winfrey.
• 35:06
  And so I watched, watched that video and one day I hope you'll
• 35:11
  interview her and she can tell you much more about her own story.
• 35:14
  But just the highlights would be that she was, or I guess maybe the low lights, she
• 35:19
  was kidnapped when she was 11 years old and held for 18 years in a guy's backyard.
• 35:25
  And endured it just unthinkable traumatic experiences during that time.
• 35:32
  And when she was reunited with her family, she met Dr.
• 35:36
  Rebecca Bailey and they did, econ assisted therapy together as a way
• 35:41
  to help JC and her family reunite.
• 35:46
  And that really resonated with me because I felt like working with
• 35:50
  horses had helped my own blended family to come together and unite.
• 35:55
  And so I really kind of understood that.
• 35:57
  And so in the interview, JC mentioned that she was gonna start a foundation
• 36:03
  to provide a curriculum to help people that wanted to do that.
• 36:08
  And so during the middle of the night of this snow freak snowstorm, I
• 36:12
  just have hours and hours to Google.
• 36:14
  And so I just Google track down the foundation, it has a contact page.
• 36:19
  I sent in information and said, I'd like to learn more.
• 36:23
  And a little bit later I received a message from them saying, we're
• 36:27
  looking for an agency to work with.
• 36:30
  You're down in the middle of nowhere.
• 36:31
  Nobody would ever think of us being there, so we'll be glad to come.
• 36:36
  And that's, that's how we met.
• 36:39
  And it was just, I think, an instant connection, of just
• 36:42
  being really like-minded.
• 36:44
  And, and the more that I have worked with them and, gotten to know them, I really
• 36:49
  realized that a lot of the things that were just good old common sense, you
• 36:54
  know, being, being sent outside to play, not having a lot of electronics, always
• 37:00
  being surrounded by people who love you and care for you, and, just, just all
• 37:05
  of those things that they kind of helped me understand why those things worked.
• 37:12
  Like bilateral repetitive motion, which is also a big tenant in natural lifeman.
• 37:17
  You know, like all of those things kind of work together and it's like,
• 37:21
  Rupert Isaacson: talk us through that.
• 37:22
  That's why Bilateral, just repeat that again, bilateral.
• 37:26
  Joy ONeil: Oh.
• 37:27
  It's based on the work of Dr.
• 37:29
  Bruce Perry and it's bilateral repetitive motion.
• 37:32
  Okay.
• 37:32
  Talk to us about that.
• 37:33
  Which is, I'm certainly not an expert.
• 37:36
  I don't wanna, I, I encourage people to go to go look up, look up those, the works
• 37:40
  of Bruce Perry and Natural Life Manship and the Polyvagal Equine Institute, but
• 37:47
  they are, it's when it's like, why you feel better when you go take a walk or
• 37:53
  when you ride a horse, it's the left and the right side of your brain moving.
• 37:57
  Like, think of it like mdr, you know, as the, the tapping left and right sides.
• 38:03
  Rupert Isaacson: Just not everyone's gonna know these acronyms.
• 38:05
  Joy, what is emdr?
• 38:07
  Joy ONeil: It's just, it is just movement on the left and the right side that helps.
• 38:12
  I, this is how I think of it.
• 38:13
  This may be totally wrong, but it just helps your brain to organize what you're
• 38:18
  thinking and to come up with a way to work through it, through difficult situations.
• 38:24
  It's that bilateral motion of the horse.
• 38:27
  And I think, you know, you put, you, you put all of the, all that
• 38:32
  language that you have behind it.
• 38:34
  I'm sure everybody's familiar with all the things that you, that you advocate.
• 38:38
  The, the rocking of the hips, the moving back and forth, the
• 38:41
  up and down, the concentrating, the, the repetitiveness of it.
• 38:44
  it's almost like, like even a chant or a meditation.
• 38:48
  It, even though
• 38:50
  like horses provide it, you can find it in walking, biking, swimming, anything
• 38:56
  that you can just do that helps your, helps your brain develop neuroplasticity,
• 39:01
  it helps your brain relax.
• 39:03
  It can maybe even distract your brain a little bit so that you're focused on
• 39:06
  something else and you're not always telling yourself that same story over and
• 39:10
  over and over, and like digging yourself deeper and deeper and deeper into a hole.
• 39:14
  And so, I just, just, the more that I've learned, the more that I realized.
• 39:20
  Even just breathing, I was in the band, all throughout high school.
• 39:24
  So thinking about how you were taught to breathe in deeply and to exhale,
• 39:30
  I was like, oh, that may have helped if I came into band really upset or,
• 39:35
  anxious or had lots of things going on.
• 39:37
  Even just doing that to be able to play my instrument.
• 39:41
  Was helping me to overcome some difficult experiences.
• 39:47
  Rupert Isaacson: So, so tell us about how does this work now happen at Red Barn?
• 39:51
  So specifically the work that you're doing, with JC Dugard and
• 39:56
  the Equine Polyvagal Institute.
• 39:57
  Describe to us how a session might go and who the client might be.
• 40:03
  Joy ONeil: our average student is someone who has a physical or a
• 40:10
  cognitive or an emotional disability.
• 40:14
  a Google or Ransom reports.
• 40:16
  And, the average age is about 10 years old, but if, chronologically, but a
• 40:23
  lot of those students have a cognitive impairment, so they may be operating
• 40:28
  on more of a six or seven year old.
• 40:32
  Or, you know, like whatever their chronological age is, they're
• 40:34
  usually several years, below that.
• 40:37
  And, we take those, we take what we've learned about the importance of
• 40:42
  being outside, about the importance of hard work and heavy lifting.
• 40:45
  We have two occupational therapists who work here that really influence the
• 40:49
  programs and, and the things that we do.
• 40:53
  And we hold them to a high standard.
• 40:55
  We don't expect less from them just because they have a disability we
• 40:58
  expect the most that they can do.
• 41:00
  And I would say that that's one of the things that our parents tell us that they
• 41:03
  love the most, is that we do not have lowered expectations for their child.
• 41:08
  We have high expectations, and we give them the, the support that
• 41:11
  they need to be able to meet that.
• 41:13
  Because as, as high as the expectations can be, that gives them a greater
• 41:18
  chance of being able to live independently or as independently as
• 41:22
  possible and to not be taken advantage of and to have a fulfilling life.
• 41:28
  And so, we just incorporate all of that into everything we do, whether
• 41:32
  that's riding a horse, participating in our job skills program, doing some of
• 41:38
  our equine assisted learning classes.
• 41:40
  We have one called, pencils and Ponies where they do things around the
• 41:44
  property that help them with their fine motor skills so that they can hold a
• 41:48
  pencil and improve their handwriting.
• 41:51
  We do one, that encourages children to read through the
• 41:53
  Horse-powered reading program.
• 41:56
  We do a class called Brain Builders, which takes a book once
• 42:01
  a that meets three days a week.
• 42:03
  We take a book for the entire week.
• 42:05
  The children read the book.
• 42:06
  It's like usually a storybook, a children's storybook.
• 42:08
  They'll read the storybook and then do different activities around
• 42:11
  the property that, Reinforce some of the concepts in the b book.
• 42:15
  Some of the words like sight words, some of the activities, if it's a
• 42:19
  hungry caterpillar, we might talk about what, what are good foods
• 42:23
  to eat and what are foods that give you a tummy ache at the end?
• 42:26
  And, you know, how do you, how do you plan all those things out?
• 42:29
  We might talk about, just the different animals.
• 42:32
  They might learn their colors, their letters, their numbers.
• 42:36
  It just, whatever it takes, it's just a really integrated
• 42:39
  Rupert Isaacson: So you're combining, you're combining education with,
• 42:43
  with academics, with your, yeah.
• 42:45
  With your sessions.
• 42:46
  With the horses.
• 42:47
  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
• 42:47
  There's, well, the horseback riding lessons are horseback riding lessons,
• 42:53
  and then there are unmounted lessons that can incorporate horses, but they can
• 42:58
  also just incorporate the environment.
• 43:00
  They can go down to the creek and, Look at, listen to the water and listen to the
• 43:06
  birds and, dig up worms and talk about the kind of worms that are in the dirt.
• 43:11
  Like, it's just, I mean, it sounds silly, but it's really just play.
• 43:15
  Like, I, like, I mean, the, the difference is we just now know how good play is.
• 43:20
  Yeah.
• 43:20
  But it's not like we're doing, top level play or, you know, a plus play.
• 43:25
  It's just play.
• 43:27
  It's just letting them be kids, you know, making, taking pieces of,
• 43:31
  clover and making little clover chains and putting it around their head.
• 43:35
  And, it's fi you know, that's improving fine motor skills.
• 43:37
  They're learning to take turns.
• 43:39
  They're learning their colors and their numbers.
• 43:42
  They're learning how to get along and resolve conflict.
• 43:45
  It, they're, I,
• 43:47
  Rupert Isaacson: my case walking.
• 43:48
  You're, you're doing education and academics.
• 43:51
  Tell us about the horse-powered learning.
• 43:53
  What's the horse-powered learning program?
• 43:54
  It sounds
• 43:55
  Joy ONeil: interesting.
• 43:56
  So it is meant to encourage children to read.
• 44:00
  So it can be anything from, children read books to the horses.
• 44:05
  Okay.
• 44:05
  See, so that they can practice their fluency.
• 44:07
  So they'll bring their favorite book and read it to the horse.
• 44:10
  What a great idea if, yeah.
• 44:12
  You know, we can read books about horses.
• 44:15
  We can read to the children, they can read to the horses,
• 44:17
  they can read to each other.
• 44:18
  They can just go sit in a peaceful spot and read.
• 44:22
  They can.
• 44:22
  If we're talking about how do you make different words?
• 44:26
  They can lead a horse from, like one letter to another letter to
• 44:31
  make a compound word or one word to another word to make a compound word.
• 44:35
  They can lead.
• 44:36
  Like we might have the word, we might have the letters up on an index card somewhere.
• 44:42
  And then maybe there's the letter C and the letter P and you know,
• 44:47
  other letters on index cards on the other side of the arena.
• 44:50
  And they can walk over, get the first letter, take it to the up
• 44:54
  on the other side, and they can, say, well, does this make a word
• 44:58
  or does it make a nonsense word?
• 44:59
  And if it's a nonsense word, like what do you think that word might mean?
• 45:02
  You know, like they're just all kinds of different ways.
• 45:06
  It's, ex experiential learning.
• 45:08
  But the main point is just to encourage them to
• 45:10
  Rupert Isaacson: read, yeah.
• 45:11
  To make friends with the concept of reading.
• 45:13
  Make friends with a concept rather than, oh yeah, this is a stressful
• 45:16
  thing that you have to do, but this is a playful thing you can do.
• 45:19
  Yeah.
• 45:19
  I, I love it.
• 45:20
  Yeah.
• 45:21
  Joy ONeil: and, and if you can read, you can learn anything.
• 45:25
  Yeah, that's true.
• 45:26
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, do you, do you have, as well as the, the.
• 45:32
  Kids with autism, and related conditions, do you have also a
• 45:36
  particular population with the types of trauma that JC went through?
• 45:41
  Or is it more that you are using, J C's, insights to serve, an autistic population?
• 45:48
  Or is it both?
• 45:51
  Joy ONeil: It's both.
• 45:52
  You know, there are, we have some children who do not have a
• 45:55
  physical or a cognitive disability.
• 45:58
  But they have been through adoption and foster care or foster care and
• 46:01
  adoption and they have endured some horrendous experiences in their young
• 46:06
  life, lived in four or five different foster care homes, you know, are finally
• 46:10
  in a loving home permanent adoption.
• 46:13
  But there's always kind of that, is this really gonna last?
• 46:16
  Can I really let my guard down?
• 46:18
  Can I be myself?
• 46:19
  Is, is this gonna happen?
• 46:20
  We have a great.
• 46:21
  Partnership with an, an organization called apac, which is the Alabama
• 46:25
  Pre and Post Adoption Coalition.
• 46:28
  And they have counselors who come out to, to the barn and work with the parents.
• 46:32
  And then we are able to do different activities with the children,
• 46:35
  and then sometimes the parents and the children work together.
• 46:38
  a lot of children who have disabilities can be easy targets for someone to
• 46:44
  molest, because maybe they can't tell or they don't know that it's
• 46:48
  wrong or, or they can't run away.
• 46:51
  Like they, yeah, they don't know.
• 46:52
  Yeah.
• 46:53
  They can't run away.
• 46:53
  Like there's, there's a lot, unfortunately, a lot of, children
• 46:57
  who have all of those experiences.
• 47:00
  So I think we just kind of take, a lot of what we learn.
• 47:05
  From several different places and are able to sort of synthesize that
• 47:09
  like it's a recipe or ingredients to, to cook something up that's
• 47:13
  specifically what that child needs.
• 47:16
  Rupert Isaacson: One of the other, names you just brought
• 47:18
  up in the course of conversation, you talked about natural lifeman.
• 47:21
  Can you tell us a little bit about that?
• 47:25
  Joy ONeil: Sure.
• 47:25
  That was started by Tim and Betina Joe and , I think one, the very first time that we
• 47:31
  ever came out to Austin, we went out for a beer with Tim and Betina and, so it
• 47:37
  is there, it's just natural lifeman the.
• 47:43
  I think they're kind of like the quote, I, it's been a while since
• 47:45
  I've been in their website, but it was, you know, a good theory is a good
• 47:48
  theory regardless of how it's applied.
• 47:51
  So whether that's with how you treat your horse or how you treat a a
• 47:54
  person, just being a good, decent human being is, is really important.
• 48:00
  And it, there's a lot about pressure and release in that.
• 48:04
  And so I think like we just kind of take all of those things and just
• 48:12
  internalize 'em and then synthesize 'em and come up with whatever is
• 48:16
  the best way to help that child.
• 48:18
  And it's often very slow paced.
• 48:21
  Yeah.
• 48:23
  And very
• 48:23
  Rupert Isaacson: complicated.
• 48:24
  When you talk about the pressure and release, are you talking about
• 48:27
  that, from human to human as well as obviously from human to horse?
• 48:31
  And if so, how, how might that play out?
• 48:33
  The way in which that could be addressed or looked at?
• 48:38
  Joy ONeil: So just like a recent example of that has been with an adopted
• 48:44
  family where, you know, a lot of times parents don't always get good advice
• 48:52
  from people, or sometimes maybe the way that you're raised, you think,
• 48:56
  oh, that's how I have to discipline a child or to be able to do something.
• 49:00
  And so, we had an adoptive family out and the instructor was working with
• 49:05
  them, and the, the parent never gave the child a chance to do what was asked.
• 49:15
  And the child that they had, had a pretty slow processing time.
• 49:20
  And so the, the parent didn't, like, just thought I told you to do it.
• 49:24
  Why didn't you do it?
• 49:25
  Like, they just kept, kept, kept, kept, kept.
• 49:28
  And then the child would melt down.
• 49:30
  Rather than giving them a little bit of a moment to process, catch their
• 49:36
  breath, figure out what they were gonna do, and then go, and then take action.
• 49:43
  Like there was not, they weren't waiting long enough.
• 49:46
  And so the parent was interpreting that as defiance.
• 49:50
  And so what the instructor did is have the parent then work
• 49:54
  with the horse and watch them.
• 49:58
  If you just keep asking the horse, like you just keep, like whatever you're
• 50:02
  doing, whether you're kicking your legs or you're, you're just nudging
• 50:06
  it along, or you're trying to lead it and get it to walk, if you just keep
• 50:10
  on, even the horses trying to do it, they're gonna just, it's just gonna be
• 50:16
  too much and they're gonna melt down.
• 50:18
  And so the instructor was able, and then what, like to take that further, what Dr.
• 50:23
  Bailey would, would say with the Polyvagal Equine Institute would
• 50:26
  be, you know, thinking about how that goes from your amygdala.
• 50:31
  Like where you're just sort of in this panic all the way up to the executive
• 50:34
  function of, can you think this through?
• 50:36
  Like, you know, from your brainstem all the way up to this prefrontal cortex.
• 50:41
  Like you've got to give people time, especially when they have a cognitive
• 50:44
  disability, to be able to figure that out.
• 50:47
  And so once the parent realized what that felt like and saw it in the horse,
• 50:53
  they were then able to realize, oh, I've got to just step back and wait a
• 50:58
  second and see do I see forward movement.
• 51:03
  And I, the other day I listened, to your, podcast with Joelle.
• 51:09
  And when she talked about how she was telling the kid, just your left hand,
• 51:13
  just your left hand, you know, and.
• 51:15
  And little girl goes, I'm trying, like, I'm doing the best I can.
• 51:19
  Like, oh, I just burst into tears.
• 51:21
  Right?
• 51:21
  Yeah.
• 51:21
  Just like so many times people are doing the best that they can.
• 51:25
  Yeah.
• 51:25
  Yeah.
• 51:26
  And can you just wait it out and let them, you know, support them
• 51:31
  through it and give them what they need and, like in considering all
• 51:35
  the other things that are going on.
• 51:38
  So.
• 51:39
  Yeah.
• 51:39
  That fascinating.
• 51:41
  I hope I answered your question.
• 51:42
  Yeah, you
• 51:43
  Rupert Isaacson: did really good answers it.
• 51:46
  Questions.
• 51:47
  So, I think, you know, obviously we've all made that mistake with pressurizing
• 51:52
  our children, our horses, and so on, largely because we were raised that way.
• 51:55
  And you, it's, it is very difficult for somebody to, any of us, to, rethink and
• 52:03
  readjust and slow down unless we're put in a position where we're forced to,
• 52:08
  It's fascinating to me listening that yes, that makes perfect sense to then
• 52:13
  pair the parent up in a, in a safe way where they're not gonna end up feeling
• 52:17
  shame, but still to pair them up with feedback where that isn't going to work.
• 52:25
  And then to see how a different approach it will work, could
• 52:29
  really breed good results.
• 52:30
  And, I think that's one of the great strengths of Red
• 52:34
  Barn is one often sees places.
• 52:41
  So we do this one thing, we do, we do this thing and this is how we do it.
• 52:45
  You are having gone out to all these, methodologies and then drawing
• 52:52
  from all of them means that, you know, perhaps if you hadn't say,
• 52:57
  gone to the natural life manship or something, you wouldn't have the.
• 53:02
  Particular resources or methodology to seamlessly incorporate something like
• 53:07
  that into a session where you maybe are actually working on something else
• 53:11
  with a kid, you know, to, to be able to say, oh, okay, so in, in this moment
• 53:14
  we need a bit of natural license in this, we need to go more over here.
• 53:19
  Are we doing the reading, the horsepower reading?
• 53:21
  But actually right now we need to use this more neuroscience approach in
• 53:25
  this one here, we need to go more play.
• 53:27
  And I think it's a real strength to be able to learn and incorporate so
• 53:40
  many meth methodologies and see how they actually connect rather than
• 53:43
  falling into the trap of saying, no, no, these are all separate worlds.
• 53:47
  And I'm either a, if it's in the sport horse world, I'm either hunter jumper,
• 53:50
  I'm a rider, or you know, I'm either doing, you know, assisted adaptive
• 53:55
  riding or I'm, you know, working for the.
• 53:58
  Paralympics or I'm doing this one kind of, you know, trauma therapy or something
• 54:03
  like, I think it's, it can be hard.
• 54:05
  We horse people are often a little bit, in the box thinkers rather
• 54:09
  than out the box think thinkers.
• 54:11
  , Joy ONeil: but that was one of the things that I loved about meeting
• 54:14
  you is I felt like movement method incorporates like all of that.
• 54:23
  It's like the umbrella for all of it in some ways because you have the
• 54:28
  brain and then the neuro piece, and you have the horse and the horse's
• 54:34
  movement and how important that is.
• 54:36
  You know, a lot of times in our programs we focus on it for
• 54:39
  strengthening a child who can't.
• 54:42
  Her body because she can't walk because she's in a wheelchair or to, to help
• 54:46
  her move and regain as much, motion as she can because she's using, she's in
• 54:51
  a walker or she has an assisted device or because they can't talk, you know,
• 54:55
  like we're, we are using the horse a lot of times to strengthen their bodies.
• 55:00
  But, but you talk about that and that's why it's so important that the horses be
• 55:04
  fit, because I would not give someone a wheelchair that was uneven or, or rickety.
• 55:12
  Right.
• 55:12
  Like, you know, we want the horses to have that good movement.
• 55:15
  So movement method and the things that you, in all of the things that
• 55:21
  you promote are about fit horses.
• 55:24
  And we want to treat the horses the same way that we would want to treat a person.
• 55:29
  We want them to be happy and healthy and well taken care of as well.
• 55:33
  And, it like movement to me, movement method and all of your programs.
• 55:39
  Encompass all of that in together.
• 55:44
  Well, you are, you are kind.
• 55:46
  So if I had to pick one, that would be, that would be the one
• 55:49
  I encourage people to start with because it, it includes everything.
• 55:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, that is high praise indeed.
• 55:56
  Coming from someone who does work that's as effective as yours.
• 56:01
  There's another area of your work which I'd like to ask you about, which
• 56:04
  is your work with Rebecca, and the Polyvagal, equine Polyvagal Institute.
• 56:09
  Can you talk us through, it's still to, to a large degree in unknown world,
• 56:14
  I think for quite a lot of people.
• 56:15
  So can you give us the skinny, like give us a little seminar 1
• 56:19
  0 1 on what is polyvagal theory?
• 56:23
  It's what you hear this a lot these days, but it's can be hard
• 56:26
  to get people to actually explain what it is and, then how your.
• 56:32
  You've, you've started working with the Equine Polyvagal Institute and again,
• 56:37
  how, how it affects and informs the work that you've got going on at Red Bar.
• 56:42
  -----check if this makes sense-------
• 56:42
  What is polyvagal theory?
• 56:44
  Why the vagal nerve?
• 56:45
  What's the importance of the vagal?
• 56:47
  How, how, well rather, how does the vagal nerve help us in this safe feeling that
• 56:51
  we can then be in the learning brain?
• 56:56
  Joy ONeil: It goes from your brain to your gut, and it conducts the
• 56:59
  oxytocin that gets you in the spot where you're able to learn.
• 57:04
  Go ahead.
• 57:04
  And so, and you cannot learn until you feel safe.
• 57:08
  And so it is all about creating an environment where you feel safe and
• 57:14
  where you feel relaxed and you are just able to pull everything together
• 57:23
  in your brain, in your body, feel the oxy to all the hormones and everything
• 57:28
  that you talk about, you're able to get that and make your life better,
• 57:34
  Rupert Isaacson: right?
• 57:35
  So yeah.
• 57:35
  Oxytocin, we know is a feelgood hormone.
• 57:38
  We know it's a communication hormone.
• 57:40
  it's why polyvagal and not just simply vagal.
• 57:46
  Why not just vagal nerve theory?
• 57:47
  What's the poly in there?
• 57:49
  ------------------- Joy ONeil: Okay, so I know just enough to be dangerous in this.
• 57:51
  And you have to keep in mind that my primary, role in the organization
• 57:56
  is on the administrative side.
• 57:59
  Like I love the organizational theory.
• 58:01
  I do not necessarily anymore do any of the direct programming because we
• 58:06
  have great employees who have been through much more training than I have.
• 58:11
  But from what I understand, and I know just enough to be dangerous, is that
• 58:15
  poly means several or more than one.
• 58:18
  So there's the sympathetic nervous system and then that
• 58:21
  parasympathetic nervous system.
• 58:22
  And so that you're constantly, the, the metaphor that they use in the
• 58:28
  Polyvagal equine Institute is that of a carousel in that we are all sort of
• 58:33
  riding up and down, up and down in that.
• 58:36
  And so you're going between your sympathetic and your parasympathetic
• 58:40
  nervous system in that you're learning, Like, suppose that you
• 58:45
  think that, suppose that a snake jumps out at you and that makes you
• 58:49
  scared, you immediately get to that.
• 58:51
  But then you go like, oh wait, it's just a snake.
• 58:53
  Like it's fine.
• 58:54
  It wasn't really a snake, it was just a rubber hose left on the road.
• 58:58
  So the, the faster that you can kind of travel up and down between those
• 59:02
  two states or those two sy, those two, systems, the better that you are.
• 59:07
  And that when you can reframe how you feel in those situations, if it's
• 59:12
  something where you have an intentional decision to do, like if, say that
• 59:17
  you're about to go, I don't know, like on a podcast or something, and you're
• 59:21
  really nervous, instead of thinking, I'm so nervous, I'm so nervous.
• 59:25
  You can reframe that and think, I'm so excited I get to do this.
• 59:29
  I get to share something.
• 59:30
  I, you know, like when you can reframe those experiences and look back and see,
• 59:38
  just see them in a more positive light.
• 59:41
  That, that is also good for you.
• 59:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it might to even look back at past events in that way.
• 59:47
  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
• 59:48
  Like to look back and say, well, like interesting man, that was a
• 59:51
  really rough time, but I can see that I've learned this and so I'll be
• 59:57
  better in the future because of it.
• 59:59
  It's not, it's not always looking back and living in those difficult moments,
• 1:00:06
  but if you can find even one, like silver lining or one good thing out of that, you
• 1:00:14
  can clinging onto that and change the way that your brain is thinking about those
• 1:00:18
  experiences and that that's not meaning that what happened to you was okay.
• 1:00:22
  It's not saying that what somebody else did to you wasn't wrong to me, it's just
• 1:00:27
  saying I now have a tool that in spite of those things, I'm gonna come out.
• 1:00:35
  Okay.
• 1:00:36
  Right.
• 1:00:36
  Rupert Isaacson: And to, to thrive rather than just survive.
• 1:00:39
  Yeah.
• 1:00:40
  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
• 1:00:41
  And I think that is like really, really important.
• 1:00:45
  And you know, you mentioned earlier that, in 2016 I was diagnosed with advanced
• 1:00:51
  heart failure, and that was a really difficult thing for me to go through.
• 1:00:55
  I was, for several years before the diagnosis, I had been, telling my
• 1:01:00
  doctor that I didn't feel well, that like all these things were going on
• 1:01:04
  and I had just been totally ignored.
• 1:01:07
  And then by the time I found out it was an advanced stage and I was
• 1:01:13
  so mad, like angry, angry, angry, mad, like that all that this had
• 1:01:19
  happened and I just felt cheated.
• 1:01:22
  And, you know, the more I learned about what the, future could look like for
• 1:01:27
  somebody with my diagnosis, it was really, it was really a tough time.
• 1:01:34
  But, Now I look back at that, you know, 2016 to now, and I think, man, what
• 1:01:42
  that did to change my outlook on life and the things that I thought were
• 1:01:47
  maybe important back then, you know, now I realize, oh, I'm gonna enjoy
• 1:01:52
  every single moment, every single day.
• 1:01:54
  I had, just a chance to like, almost like a second chance at
• 1:01:58
  life to go back and say, okay, well what's really important to me?
• 1:02:01
  What do I really wanna do?
• 1:02:03
  So even just in something like that, being able to, to look back
• 1:02:09
  and, and count the blessings in it.
• 1:02:12
  No, it really matters.
• 1:02:14
  Rupert Isaacson: You are, I'm, the listeners can't see you,
• 1:02:16
  but I can cause we're on Zoom.
• 1:02:18
  You are a vibrant and healthy looking person.
• 1:02:23
  You are not somebody who one would look at and say, oh yes, they look
• 1:02:27
  like they had advanced heart failure.
• 1:02:30
  So how come, how come you look so vital?
• 1:02:36
  How, what, what's the process and how bad did it get?
• 1:02:40
  Like were you actually, did you collapse and they carted you off
• 1:02:43
  in, in, in the, ambulance or, where was the point of crisis and
• 1:02:48
  how have you come back from that?
• 1:02:51
  Joy ONeil: Gosh.
• 1:02:52
  You know what it, I think it's interesting that you were
• 1:02:56
  actually with me during that time.
• 1:02:58
  You were here in Birmingham and, you had, you came down for a clinic and we were
• 1:03:04
  at the clinic and I just remember being absolutely exhausted and I had gained
• 1:03:11
  so much weight and I was just so tired.
• 1:03:15
  And, I really felt like maybe I was burned out.
• 1:03:19
  Like I just, it was just so hard.
• 1:03:21
  Every day was an effort to get up and to go do something.
• 1:03:24
  And I had been going to the doctor and each time he would tell me, you just
• 1:03:30
  start, aren't as young as you used to be.
• 1:03:32
  You're working with these younger girls, you need to, you know, walk more, eat,
• 1:03:37
  drink more Gatorade, you're dehydrated.
• 1:03:39
  Just like all of these things.
• 1:03:40
  I was so upset.
• 1:03:40
  Oh, that's, that's
• 1:03:41
  Rupert Isaacson: gonna make you healthy.
• 1:03:42
  Drinking Gatorade.
• 1:03:44
  Joy ONeil: Yeah, right.
• 1:03:45
  Like, you're just dehydrated working outside, you know, just, it was
• 1:03:49
  very demeaning, very like, oh, we're not as young as we used to be.
• 1:03:52
  Like very dismissive.
• 1:03:54
  And, I was just cranky and, it was just a really rough time.
• 1:04:00
  And I had been driving to the barn and a truck pulled out in front
• 1:04:07
  of me and it was like one of those near accident kind of things.
• 1:04:10
  And.
• 1:04:11
  And I thought, oh my gosh, I could have died.
• 1:04:14
  And for a split moment, I had the thought, well, if at least if I
• 1:04:20
  had, I wouldn't be so tired anymore.
• 1:04:24
  Like I was that tired, I was just exhausted.
• 1:04:28
  I just didn't feel like myself.
• 1:04:29
  I felt like it was just exhausting.
• 1:04:34
  And so the next week we had a meeting at the barn and I, you
• 1:04:38
  know, I talked about how maybe I felt like I should, should leave.
• 1:04:42
  And part of our advisory council, one of the members said, like, if that's
• 1:04:46
  what you wanna do, that's fine, but because you work without pay thinking
• 1:04:50
  of if you had died, like how would we come up with the money to have paid
• 1:04:55
  you to pay somebody to replace you?
• 1:04:58
  And so that's an perspective.
• 1:05:03
  His suggestion was, get a life insurance exam.
• 1:05:07
  So that if something like that would've happened, you know, while we don't have
• 1:05:12
  time to, to plan ahead for how we would pay for this, get a life insurance
• 1:05:16
  exam, and get a life insurance policy that would be payable to the barn.
• 1:05:22
  What a very be a couple hundred dollars.
• 1:05:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:25
  He's like, it'd just be a couple of hundred dollars, you know, but like, wow.
• 1:05:29
  Thinking about how you could have died, like, like that was, which tells
• 1:05:33
  you, I guess how cranky I had been, if that's what people were thinking of.
• 1:05:38
  It's like, oh wait, we get the money to replace you.
• 1:05:41
  So we, so I went and got a life insurance exam, and it was during
• 1:05:48
  that exam that they did an E K G.
• 1:05:51
  Okay.
• 1:05:51
  And now I had been going to the doctor for years complaining of
• 1:05:55
  gaining weight, hot, sweaty, unable to breathe, just all kinds of things.
• 1:05:59
  Gain unex, unexplainably, gaining weight.
• 1:06:03
  And they did an ekg and then
• 1:06:07
  I got a letter and the letter said that they were gonna have to increase the rate
• 1:06:11
  because my EKG had come back abnormal and I had not disclosed my heart condition.
• 1:06:17
  And I was like, what are you talking about?
• 1:06:20
  What?
• 1:06:20
  Heart condition?
• 1:06:21
  A heart condition.
• 1:06:22
  Okay.
• 1:06:22
  I've been going to the doctor for two years, there's nothing wrong with me.
• 1:06:25
  Everything is fine.
• 1:06:27
  So I called the insurance company and they said, if you'll go get a, go, go
• 1:06:33
  to a cardiologist and get them to say that maybe the technician the insurance
• 1:06:37
  company had used had made a mistake, like one of the little electrodes wasn't
• 1:06:40
  on right, or something like that, that they would honor the original rate.
• 1:06:45
  So you were in town and I had to leave the clinic early, and you're
• 1:06:51
  like, oh, I'm sure it's fine.
• 1:06:53
  I'm sure it's fine.
• 1:06:53
  Everything will be fine.
• 1:06:55
  And so I go to this and I find out that it's not fine.
• 1:07:00
  I have something called the complete left bundle branch block, which meant
• 1:07:04
  that the right side of my heart's electrical system did not work.
• 1:07:09
  I mean, the left side of my heart's electrical system didn't work.
• 1:07:11
  So the right side was having to do all of that, and so it was just wearing down.
• 1:07:17
  And I was just stunned.
• 1:07:19
  And you, and you had brought a couple of friends with you to do this clinic.
• 1:07:23
  We just all sat there and y'all were so supportive and, and you weren't like
• 1:07:27
  giving me falses support, like, oh, everything is fine, everything is fine.
• 1:07:32
  Like, you just sat with me in that disbelief and helped me come up with
• 1:07:37
  how am I gonna go home and tell this to my husband and what am I gonna
• 1:07:41
  tell my children and what are the next steps and what's gonna happen?
• 1:07:45
  And so, just all of these, all of these emotions that were
• 1:07:49
  going on and, and I was so angry.
• 1:07:52
  Like I just was so mad.
• 1:07:54
  So one thing kind of led to another and I got involved in with a great
• 1:07:57
  doctor at uab and she really has helped me to know how to take care of
• 1:08:03
  myself and, and so I'm doing great.
• 1:08:07
  So
• 1:08:07
  Rupert Isaacson: has, has that electrical blockage exercise.
• 1:08:10
  Unblocked.
• 1:08:11
  Is your heart now working equally on both sides?
• 1:08:15
  Joy ONeil: No, I will have that complete left bundle ranch
• 1:08:19
  block for the rest of my life.
• 1:08:20
  Like it will, it will always be there.
• 1:08:22
  And it may have actually back in the early times, like before, as I mentioned
• 1:08:30
  earlier, starting the barn when I just didn't feel right and they kept thinking
• 1:08:33
  that maybe it was Lou Gehrigs, they, it was some sort of autoimmune, something
• 1:08:36
  going on like that could have been
• 1:08:39
  Rupert Isaacson: the early symptoms.
• 1:08:40
  Joy ONeil: So something, and it attacked my heart there.
• 1:08:44
  Also, because of this, I kind of reconnected with a half
• 1:08:51
  sister and discovered that she has something very similar.
• 1:08:55
  So it could be a genetic component to it.
• 1:08:59
  I have a full biological system sister who does not have exactly what I
• 1:09:04
  have, but she also has a heart defect.
• 1:09:07
  That kind of came out of some of this.
• 1:09:09
  So it was really a strange, a strange experience, and it affected not
• 1:09:14
  just me, but then also my children.
• 1:09:16
  Sure.
• 1:09:17
  Because knowing that this is something that I have that could
• 1:09:20
  be genetic affects them as well.
• 1:09:22
  Right, right, right.
• 1:09:24
  So the main thing if, if your visitor viewers or listeners don't get anything
• 1:09:29
  else out of it, is that women's heart disease is so often misdiagnosed.
• 1:09:35
  People think that we are just like these frail little wilting flowers.
• 1:09:39
  Like, oh, you're just worried, or it's anxiety, or, it's just menopause.
• 1:09:44
  It's just, you know, it's very often dismissed.
• 1:09:47
  And if my doctor had just done a simple blood test, the enzymes would've shown
• 1:09:55
  up to show that I was in heart failure.
• 1:09:59
  Okay.
• 1:09:59
  So, So my ejection fraction was 25 to 30 when I was first diagnosed.
• 1:10:06
  Normal is like 55 to 70.
• 1:10:10
  I'm right at that 50 to 55 mark now with medication and eating a low sodium
• 1:10:15
  diet and doing the, the proper kind of exercise for, for what my heart needs.
• 1:10:22
  But women should always insist that their doctors check their hearts
• 1:10:27
  because it is, or at least in the United States, I guess I can't speak.
• 1:10:31
  Rupert Isaacson: It's a blood test.
• 1:10:32
  All they have to do is ask for a particular type of blood test.
• 1:10:34
  What is that blood test?
• 1:10:36
  Does it have a name
• 1:10:37
  Joy ONeil: b P?
• 1:10:39
  In my situation, in my situation, it would've been a blood test.
• 1:10:44
  Could have shown it an E.
• 1:10:46
  An e kg could have shown it.
• 1:10:48
  And now remember, I went to get a life insurance exam.
• 1:10:51
  And a technician gave me this EKG in the middle of a life insurance
• 1:10:57
  company's conference room.
• 1:10:59
  So it's not even something that has to be ordered specialty like that.
• 1:11:04
  Only a doctor
• 1:11:06
  Rupert Isaacson: specialty or anything like,
• 1:11:07
  Joy ONeil: no.
• 1:11:08
  Yeah.
• 1:11:08
  It's just a simple E k G or a simple blood test would've shown this.
• 1:11:14
  So, and what I have discovered is that unfortunately my story is not unique.
• 1:11:19
  That there are women all, all the time, every single day across the world whose
• 1:11:25
  doctors are dismissing things, that if a man went to an emergency room or
• 1:11:30
  went to the doctor and said, my heart is racing, I'm out of breath every
• 1:11:34
  time I bend over, like I get dizzy.
• 1:11:37
  I wake up at night with my heart pounding, I've gained weight.
• 1:11:41
  You know, sometimes I have a pain in my chest, you know,
• 1:11:44
  you would be immediately taken.
• 1:11:47
  To have your heart looked at.
• 1:11:48
  But in women, and there have been research studies that have shown
• 1:11:52
  this, women pr women and men both go into a hospital er with exactly
• 1:11:57
  the same script of what's going on.
• 1:12:00
  And the women are usually told that they're just being, overly emotional
• 1:12:06
  or anxiety or having a panic attack.
• 1:12:08
  And the men are taken back immediately to be tested for a heart attack.
• 1:12:13
  Rupert Isaacson: And what proportion of those women die?
• 1:12:15
  Do we know what proportion of those women die?
• 1:12:20
  Joy ONeil: It, heart disease is the number one killer of women.
• 1:12:23
  Okay.
• 1:12:26
  And, you know, if you could ask me before my own diagnosis, I probably
• 1:12:31
  would've guessed that it was cancer, but, that it's heart disease.
• 1:12:37
  Rupert Isaacson: So you are now, an advocate for women with
• 1:12:43
  heart disease and, and just.
• 1:12:45
  Women to be represented in this.
• 1:12:47
  You're very, very, very, very busy running red barn.
• 1:12:49
  You've got a massive clientele.
• 1:12:53
  I, when, when I've, I've come down to be like, how do you guys manage it?
• 1:12:57
  How do you see all these people?
• 1:12:57
  I said, how do you do it?
• 1:12:59
  But you do.
• 1:13:00
  Where do you get time to go and advocate as well?
• 1:13:04
  It's not easy.
• 1:13:04
  And I also know you're a, a grandmother, although you, I dunno
• 1:13:08
  how you can be a grandmother at 25, but you seem to have achieved it.
• 1:13:11
  Joy ONeil: Oh, aren't you sweet?
• 1:13:12
  But the, I think you and I are the same
• 1:13:14
  Rupert Isaacson: age Indeed.
• 1:13:15
  And I'm looking, I'm looking at us on the zoom screens and I, I, I see a difference.
• 1:13:20
  , Joy ONeil: whatever.
• 1:13:20
  I have grandchildren.
• 1:13:21
  The age of your children.
• 1:13:22
  Yes.
• 1:13:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Ok.
• 1:13:24
  Rub it in.
• 1:13:25
  Yeah.
• 1:13:26
  But yeah.
• 1:13:27
  So how do you find the time?
• 1:13:27
  You're, you're, you are, you're rushed off your feet, you're busy.
• 1:13:30
  And I presume, do, do you still feel sometimes, even,
• 1:13:34
  even now, with your self-care.
• 1:13:36
  Regime and so on.
• 1:13:38
  Do you still sometimes feel close to burnout or has that gone away?
• 1:13:43
  There's really two separate questions.
• 1:13:45
  One is, how do you find the time for this advocacy work?
• 1:13:47
  And B, what do you do about burnout?
• 1:13:52
  Joy ONeil: I guess I find the time because I tend to generally be pretty organized.
• 1:13:57
  So, and I think you, you just have to prioritize things
• 1:14:01
  and try to, to make the time.
• 1:14:03
  I would say one of the things that I starting to have our grandchildren, you
• 1:14:08
  know, I really began to think about how lucky I was and how grateful I was to, to
• 1:14:14
  still be alive, to be able to see them, and so to be able to spend time with them.
• 1:14:19
  Is my first priority.
• 1:14:20
  And I think that is also good for the organization because without them, I
• 1:14:24
  think I could have been in danger of becoming a founder who stayed around
• 1:14:30
  and in control for a little bit too long, you know, could have stayed in.
• 1:14:35
  And so one of the good things about intentionally stepping back is that
• 1:14:41
  other people in the organization have stepped up to lead it more.
• 1:14:45
  I don't do anything.
• 1:14:47
  I, and I haven't done anything in direct programs in probably
• 1:14:51
  at least six or seven years.
• 1:14:52
  Like it's, I
• 1:14:53
  Rupert Isaacson: just have all that unstressful
• 1:14:55
  fundraising to do, for example.
• 1:14:57
  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
• 1:14:58
  Yeah.
• 1:14:58
  I do the fundraising and the, the human resources and the administrative
• 1:15:02
  things, but we have a great team and that's really very important to me.
• 1:15:09
  So I don't know, and I think it just kind of comes naturally.
• 1:15:13
  It's very integrated into everything that I do.
• 1:15:16
  What do you know, whether it's talking about the barn or talking
• 1:15:19
  about heart disease, it just
• 1:15:21
  Rupert Isaacson: right naturally comes up.
• 1:15:22
  You're, you're now, you've gone from being a, a technician to being a, an
• 1:15:27
  advocate really for the programs and what you do while still, you know,
• 1:15:31
  providing all these programming.
• 1:15:33
  Do you still sometimes feel close to burnout and do you have tips for people?
• 1:15:38
  I know an awful lot of listeners, are constantly dealing with this.
• 1:15:42
  They're either been running programs for years, you know, and are exhausted by it.
• 1:15:48
  Or they're, you know, trying to get programs up and feeling that pressure.
• 1:15:54
  Yeah.
• 1:15:55
  And, you know, juggling their lives with it.
• 1:15:57
  What's your tip?
• 1:15:59
  How do you manage burnout?
• 1:16:01
  Joy ONeil: I would say anybody who says that they aren't on the verge at times,
• 1:16:06
  Of burnout is probably just unaware that they're on the verge of that.
• 1:16:11
  And I think for me, I received my diagnosis in 2016.
• 1:16:16
  Most people with my diagnosis, if you search it, have like
• 1:16:20
  a five year life expectancy.
• 1:16:22
  So I spent those first, you know, couple of years, like 16, 17, 18, really
• 1:16:28
  thinking about my life, who I was, what I wanted to be, my legacy, my children,
• 1:16:33
  just all of those kind of things.
• 1:16:35
  I felt like I had just kind of gotten back in a groove in 2019
• 1:16:42
  with everything kind of going.
• 1:16:44
  And then of course 2020 hit the pandemic and that was like
• 1:16:48
  being knocked back down again.
• 1:16:50
  Feel like we've just, you know, are kind of getting, getting
• 1:16:54
  back on our feet after that.
• 1:16:56
  I mean, not just us personally, but us as the world at least, or
• 1:17:01
  at least the world in Alabama.
• 1:17:03
  But what I find is when I, when I get close to burnout is, and this was one
• 1:17:09
  of the things that I kept trying to tell my doctor, is I've always been able to,
• 1:17:12
  when I get close to burnout, I have sort of like a little system that I can do.
• 1:17:17
  And none of that was working back before my diagnosis.
• 1:17:21
  And that was, I just take some time.
• 1:17:22
  And I have, I'm so blessed to have amazing friends and family and I just
• 1:17:28
  ask them honestly, and they are always great to give me honest feedback about
• 1:17:34
  myself and my ideas and my thoughts.
• 1:17:36
  And if I'm being cranky and, you know, need to take a break, I
• 1:17:41
  would go do things with my friends.
• 1:17:43
  I would spend time with my family.
• 1:17:45
  I would really spend time, In prayer and just being alone, being quiet.
• 1:17:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:50
  Just spend a whole day in bed, you know, just, just quiet thinking, praying.
• 1:17:55
  Give yourself permission
• 1:17:56
  Rupert Isaacson: to do that.
• 1:17:57
  Yeah.
• 1:17:57
  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
• 1:17:58
  Just like reconnecting with God.
• 1:18:01
  Cuz I do feel like when I, when I don't have that strong relationship is
• 1:18:05
  when I can start to feel burned out.
• 1:18:07
  But when I feel that I am living my life the way that, he built and
• 1:18:13
  designed and equipped me to be able to do that, I have extra energy and
• 1:18:16
  extra time to be able to, to go do and take care of all those things.
• 1:18:20
  And so, Like being able to do that.
• 1:18:23
  I love to crochet and watch Star Trek, so, you know, I can at the same
• 1:18:28
  time, crochet or watch Star Trek.
• 1:18:30
  Yeah.
• 1:18:30
  Yeah.
• 1:18:31
  And then, you know, just finding ways to reconnect with, with watching, the
• 1:18:36
  kid, if I'm, if I feel like it's burned out at work, I could go watch a lesson.
• 1:18:41
  Mm.
• 1:18:41
  Read, read an email from a parent, you know, look at our program evaluations.
• 1:18:46
  I know most organizations do program evaluations, to be able
• 1:18:50
  to show the work that they do.
• 1:18:51
  I feel like we do program evaluations because it helps to
• 1:18:54
  prevent burnout among our staff.
• 1:18:56
  That's good.
• 1:18:56
  To be able, able to see, you know, like the things, like, you may think,
• 1:19:00
  oh, this child isn't getting anywhere.
• 1:19:03
  You know, like they're, they barely speak three words.
• 1:19:06
  They only held their head up for five seconds while they were riding.
• 1:19:10
  You know, all, all these things that seem incredibly slow to you, but
• 1:19:14
  then you read it in writing from the parent who says, When they see me turn
• 1:19:20
  down Bailey Road, they start smiling.
• 1:19:24
  When they recognize where they're going, they wake up and
• 1:19:27
  say, oh, today is Wednesday.
• 1:19:28
  I get to go to the barn.
• 1:19:30
  You know, like all of those things, when you get to see it and read it and you
• 1:19:35
  realize that your work is meaningful and it's changing lives, even if it's
• 1:19:39
  at a snails pace sometimes, the, the breakthroughs are great, but they're not
• 1:19:44
  as often as the snail pace kind of things.
• 1:19:47
  Or a, a former student comes back and tells you, you know, oh, remember
• 1:19:52
  that time all those years ago that you did so and so, and you're like,
• 1:19:55
  no, I don't even remember that.
• 1:19:58
  And they say, that meant so much to me.
• 1:20:00
  That was just so amazing.
• 1:20:01
  That was a turning point in my life.
• 1:20:03
  Like mm-hmm.
• 1:20:04
  Like that is really, Like, those are the things, at least for me, that that help.
• 1:20:11
  But, but I also think just having a reasonable expectation
• 1:20:14
  and being willing to say no.
• 1:20:16
  Or, or even if it's not no, it's like I can't do it yet.
• 1:20:20
  Like, you know, I've got to fix myself.
• 1:20:22
  That's a good answer.
• 1:20:23
  I can't do it right now.
• 1:20:25
  But it's not that I'm not interested, it's not that this won't work out, it's
• 1:20:29
  just I can't do everything all at once.
• 1:20:33
  And that's
• 1:20:33
  Rupert Isaacson: okay.
• 1:20:34
  Let me put it on the list to be done.
• 1:20:37
  Yeah.
• 1:20:38
  Joy ONeil: Like, it, it can happen.
• 1:20:39
  You know, some, some other things have got to align and some other things
• 1:20:42
  have got to work out, but just keep in mind what's really important.
• 1:20:46
  Yeah.
• 1:20:48
  So how do you do it?
• 1:20:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I gotta ride my ponies.
• 1:20:52
  And I do actually increasingly, yeah, I meditate and, prayer, meditation.
• 1:21:00
  You know, my, my earliest, all my earliest memories are conversations with God.
• 1:21:06
  And it's true that, you know, someone's listening and they think, oh, Ru but
• 1:21:10
  I didn't know you were Christian.
• 1:21:11
  It's like, well, I'm actually not really.
• 1:21:13
  but it doesn't mean that I don't believe in God.
• 1:21:15
  and it doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of the divine.
• 1:21:19
  but you can call it by different names.
• 1:21:20
  It doesn't matter.
• 1:21:21
  I don't think God minds particularly, doesn't wake up
• 1:21:23
  going, well, you call me wrong.
• 1:21:26
  I somehow don't think that's how divine thought process goes.
• 1:21:29
  But, but that, that feeling of being gra a lot of it for me is often about gratitude.
• 1:21:34
  Yeah, to turn my mind.
• 1:21:37
  And, and so if I meditate, it's easier for me to do that.
• 1:21:40
  And I've, I can use a ride, a trail ride as a meditation.
• 1:21:44
  I can use that as an opportunity for gratitude.
• 1:21:46
  Really just look around me, at nature.
• 1:21:50
  And be so thankful that I'm in it, you know?
• 1:21:53
  So I think, I think like you say, it's, you know, obviously one's children,
• 1:21:56
  but it's, it's these simple things.
• 1:21:59
  And of course we're also very lucky cuz we get to work and live with horses
• 1:22:03
  and, you know, that just going down to the barn, out to the field, and even
• 1:22:06
  just looking at them, you know, and just thinking, gosh, you know, how, how
• 1:22:11
  lucky am I to, to be able to do this?
• 1:22:15
  But yeah, I, I think as you say, reasonable expectations.
• 1:22:17
  I, I think I've learned to allow myself to burn out.
• 1:22:21
  I've learned, I've learned to not be freaked out and to know that
• 1:22:25
  that is a cycle that everybody goes through, like animals go through
• 1:22:28
  winter sleep and that actually it's cyclical in the course of a day.
• 1:22:31
  You know, one, one tends to dip.
• 1:22:34
  In the later afternoon, that might be a good time to meditate, a good
• 1:22:37
  time to take a nap if you can.
• 1:22:39
  And, he's, I never nap.
• 1:22:41
  I never do.
• 1:22:41
  But then well, well why not?
• 1:22:43
  Because then maybe I'll, I'll work better when I come back and, and watching my dad.
• 1:22:48
  My dad is 90 and, still going pretty strong, but I see when he lets himself
• 1:22:55
  not go strong, and I've been watching him that way, for years and thinking,
• 1:23:01
  you know, there's a lot to learn from, from just the way you organize your day.
• 1:23:05
  To let yourself go up and come down and go up and come down
• 1:23:07
  and not always push through.
• 1:23:09
  You are a push through most of us, I'm sure most listeners here are.
• 1:23:14
  And it, so the burnout factor, I think is, it's important just
• 1:23:19
  for us to think about because.
• 1:23:22
  Just given the demands of this kind of work.
• 1:23:23
  It's inevitable, I think.
• 1:23:25
  and
• 1:23:25
  Joy ONeil: then never ending.
• 1:23:26
  Like, it, it never ends.
• 1:23:28
  Yeah.
• 1:23:28
  It's 365 days a year, seven days a week.
• 1:23:30
  And if you don't carve out time and pace yourself, you're, you're
• 1:23:39
  not really doing right by anybody.
• 1:23:42
  And even when I watch, of course I'm not a horse person.
• 1:23:45
  I, I wouldn't pretend to be, but even watching your videos where
• 1:23:50
  you're training with a horse, you say, okay, I got to where I wanted.
• 1:23:55
  That's enough.
• 1:23:57
  We're gonna end right now and we'll come back later and pick back up where this is.
• 1:24:02
  So like, we have to treat ourselves in the same way that we would treat our horses.
• 1:24:10
  That's a very good point.
• 1:24:11
  Like, like you wouldn't, you wouldn't just keep pushing and
• 1:24:13
  pushing and pushing a horse.
• 1:24:16
  Because you know that if you give them time, that time to rest, or at least
• 1:24:19
  that's what you say in your videos, right?
• 1:24:21
  Like if you give them that time to rest Yeah.
• 1:24:23
  That the next time you go back, they're gonna get there
• 1:24:26
  and they're gonna be better.
• 1:24:27
  Yeah.
• 1:24:28
  Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, less is more.
• 1:24:30
  Always.
• 1:24:30
  Joy ONeil: Yeah.
• 1:24:31
  Less.
• 1:24:31
  Yeah.
• 1:24:31
  Like so treat yourself like you would your own horse.
• 1:24:34
  How's that?
• 1:24:34
  For the best advice?
• 1:24:35
  Rupert Isaacson: That's brilliant advice.
• 1:24:38
  Well, listen how you would A good horse.
• 1:24:40
  Yeah.
• 1:24:41
  Oh, watch
• 1:24:43
  Joy ONeil: if, if you're good at horses, like if you're good at horses, treat
• 1:24:46
  them how you would treat your horse.
• 1:24:48
  If you're a jerk that's not good with horses, don't treat
• 1:24:51
  them how you would treat that,
• 1:24:51
  Rupert Isaacson: but very good point.
• 1:24:53
  Yes.
• 1:24:53
  I was once told by a stump man who got me into writing in movies when I was in my
• 1:25:01
  early twenties at college, and he said to, he was an Irish guy called Bronco Mcla.
• 1:25:06
  He said, You can't love your horse.
• 1:25:08
  You must hate your horse.
• 1:25:10
  You must hate yours.
• 1:25:11
  I'm like thinking, God, Bronco, I never want to hate my horse.
• 1:25:13
  It's like, it's funny hearing you say that and it will make a great
• 1:25:16
  story, but that's not how I wanna go.
• 1:25:18
  No, no.
• 1:25:19
  and it's hilarious you saying that you're not a horse person.
• 1:25:21
  So for, for, for the listeners, you've probably gathered, that, joy is modest.
• 1:25:28
  The program that she runs also with her daughter Alexis, who is
• 1:25:30
  a very accomplished horsewoman and of course all the, the employees,
• 1:25:33
  it's, it's exemplary what they do.
• 1:25:36
  The lunging programs, the in-hand programs, the musing programs, the
• 1:25:39
  mental wellbeing for the horse.
• 1:25:41
  It's, it's, it's gold standard.
• 1:25:43
  And I would recommend people to go down there.
• 1:25:45
  So with that, I think.
• 1:25:47
  I'd like to let people know, or have you let people know, how can
• 1:25:51
  they get with you and learn more?
• 1:25:52
  There's a lot going on down at Rev Barn.
• 1:25:54
  There's, you've got, the polyvagal stuff.
• 1:25:56
  You've got the lifeman ship stuff.
• 1:25:58
  Obviously there's Horse Boy, but there's, there's more than that too.
• 1:26:01
  And the work that you do with, JC Dugard and her foundation, and
• 1:26:06
  there's, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of education and information
• 1:26:09
  available to people down there.
• 1:26:11
  How can they get in touch with you, joy?
• 1:26:14
  Joy ONeil: Our website is the best way to, to, I guess, email me if you
• 1:26:19
  just go to the red barn.org and if you fill out pretty much any of those
• 1:26:23
  forms on the, the website, there's, at the bottom of each page, there's
• 1:26:27
  a Join our database or learn more.
• 1:26:30
  So it's Red
• 1:26:31
  Rupert Isaacson: barn org.
• 1:26:32
  Red Barn.
• 1:26:33
  The
• 1:26:34
  Joy ONeil: red barn,
• 1:26:34
  Rupert Isaacson: t
• 1:26:35
  Joy ONeil: h e, red Barn.
• 1:26:37
  I know my southern accent comes out.
• 1:26:39
  The red barn.org.
• 1:26:42
  T h e r e d B A R
• 1:26:46
  Rupert Isaacson: NT org.
• 1:26:46
  Org Great.
• 1:26:47
  And can they come down seminars, learn stuff, be in touch
• 1:26:52
  with you guys educationally?
• 1:26:54
  Sure.
• 1:26:55
  Mentoring?
• 1:26:56
  Joy ONeil: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:26:58
  We, I would, I always love to help anybody in any way that we can because so many
• 1:27:02
  people have helped us and I just feel like it's a great way to pay it forward.
• 1:27:06
  And, you know, when we, when we first started the barn, it was, I feel like just
• 1:27:14
  something that helped our own children.
• 1:27:16
  And I felt so fortunate and so lucky to have that opportunity.
• 1:27:19
  And I want to make my life goal or, you know, and I've thought about this
• 1:27:24
  a lot, especially after my diagnosis, like, what do you want to be known for?
• 1:27:28
  And I think.
• 1:27:30
  I mean, there are lots of things, but just professionally, I want to
• 1:27:33
  be known as someone that helped make it possible for children, especially
• 1:27:40
  with physical, cognitive and emotional disabilities, to have the chance to
• 1:27:44
  work with horses to improve their lives.
• 1:27:46
  And people are more than welcome to come and, and see what we have learned.
• 1:27:52
  But the first advice I always give people is to go to your website and
• 1:27:56
  to go through, and, and look at it because I, I really do believe that
• 1:28:00
  a, a good foundation or a knowledge in movement method and how the horses are
• 1:28:04
  treated and how people learn and their brains like, sets the tone and for all
• 1:28:11
  the other things that they can learn.
• 1:28:12
  And, you know, they might have a.
• 1:28:14
  A special interest and want to learn, learn also some
• 1:28:17
  other tools to have in that.
• 1:28:19
  But, they're welcome to call me, but I'm just gonna tell 'em to go back to
• 1:28:22
  Rupert Isaacson: you so well, we'll back, we'll them back and forth.
• 1:28:25
  That is very kind.
• 1:28:27
  For those who do wanna contact us, yes, remember, it's if you Movement Method
• 1:28:31
  Horse by Method, Athena, it's ntls.co, not.com, the other one, co ntls.co.
• 1:28:39
  And if people are interested in the horse training and personal development
• 1:28:43
  programs, that's long ride home.com.
• 1:28:47
  However, do go to the red barn.org, and do contact, joy and her team.
• 1:28:53
  There's a ton to learn and there's not many people, not many places that
• 1:28:57
  bring it together so holistically.
• 1:29:00
  While maintaining this level of service, it's a lot of clients.
• 1:29:04
  It's also very physically beautiful.
• 1:29:07
  I think a lot of people don't realize how beautiful Alabama is till they
• 1:29:10
  get down there and those foothills are the Appalachians that are up
• 1:29:15
  there in that Birmingham area.
• 1:29:17
  So it's a very special landscape.
• 1:29:19
  And you mentioned that place down by the water where, an cow would go and pray.
• 1:29:25
  I've been to that place.
• 1:29:26
  I know, I know exactly that river crossing it is sublime.
• 1:29:29
  So yeah.
• 1:29:32
  I would recommend going there to learn.
• 1:29:35
  They're very, very modest, but they have an awful lot to teach.
• 1:29:39
  So Joy, I can't wait till the next time I'm down there.
• 1:29:43
  Hopefully November.
• 1:29:44
  Thank you.
• 1:29:44
  I would love it.
• 1:29:46
  And you know, thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:29:49
  Well thank,
• 1:29:49
  Joy ONeil: we've learned a lot.
• 1:29:50
  Thank you for giving the chance and thank you for being such an important
• 1:29:53
  part of everything that happens here at the Barn and then also to me personally.
• 1:29:58
  Thank you.
• 1:29:58
  Rupert Isaacson: You are sweet.
• 1:29:59
  Well, likewise.
• 1:30:01
  And, good.
• 1:30:02
  I will do a follow up.
• 1:30:04
  So what Joy doesn't know is that this is actually, she just gotta come on again.
• 1:30:08
  So, everyone send in your questions to her, your questions about polyvagal,
• 1:30:13
  your questions about life, manship your questions about the heart
• 1:30:17
  stuff, your questions about how all these things relate together.
• 1:30:21
  And I will give them to joy, and Joy will answer them and we'll pull
• 1:30:25
  her back on kicking and screaming.
• 1:30:27
  Put her back up here and she'll answer your questions directly.
• 1:30:31
  Alright.
• 1:30:32
  Joy ONeil: May I'll be better for next time, cuz I'll
• 1:30:34
  know what the questions are.
• 1:30:35
  How's that happen?
• 1:30:35
  Exactly,
• 1:30:36
  Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
• 1:30:36
  Maybe if we, if we're good to you.
• 1:30:38
  Okay.
• 1:30:39
  Yeah.
• 1:30:39
  Alright.
• 1:30:40
  Joy ONeil: The deer in the headlights, like, oh my gosh.
• 1:30:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Give you a paramount.
• 1:30:45
  Okay.
• 1:30:46
  Thank you.
• 1:30:47
  Thank you so much, joy.
• 1:30:49
  I've, I've enjoyed it immensely as always, and we'll see you again soon.
• 1:30:53
  Joy ONeil: Y'all later.
• 1:30:53
  Bye-bye.
• 1:30:54
  Okay, bye.
• 1:30:55
  Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.
• 1:30:56
  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
• 1:30:58
  Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online
• 1:31:03
  courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena.
• 1:31:09
  These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people
• 1:31:14
  dealing with trauma around the world.
• 1:31:16
  We also offer a horse training program and self-care program
• 1:31:20
  for riders on long ride home.com.
• 1:31:23
  These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that
• 1:31:27
  bring you and your horse joy.
• 1:31:30
  For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.
• 1:31:35
  See you on the next show.
• 1:31:36
  And please remember to press, subscribe and share.