Latest / Women at Work: Career, Leadership & Modern Work / How the Maternal Wall Blocks Women from Leadership
Transcript
- Lucas: You know how we've talked about the 'likeability trap' and the 'visibility debt' — the subtle ways women get penalized for showing up a certain way at work? Luna: Yeah. We've covered a lot of ground on how bias shows up in feedback, in negotiation, in who gets the high-profile projects. Lucas: Right. Well, there's a specific version of this that hits women in a particularly unfair way — and it starts the moment they become mothers, or even when people assume they might become mothers. Luna: The 'maternal wall.' It's one of those terms that sounds clinical but describes a very real, very messy bias. Lucas: Exactly. And I want to anchor this episode in a really specific data point. A 2025 study from Cornell University — Cornell ran an experiment where they gave managers identical resumes and performance reviews, but randomly assigned some candidates as parents. Luna: And what did they find? Lucas: Mothers were 79% less likely to be recommended for a leadership role compared to equally qualified non-mothers. Same metrics, same achievements. The only difference was the parental status. Luna: Seventy-nine percent — that's not a small gap. That's almost four out of five mothers being shut out of consideration for something they're demonstrably qualified for. Lucas: And what's fascinating — or depressing — is that the bias didn't show up as outright hostility. The managers in the study didn't say 'I don't want a mother.' Instead, they rated mothers lower on competence and commitment, even though the performance numbers were identical. Luna: So the numbers didn't speak for themselves. The bias colored how people interpreted the numbers. Lucas: Exactly. It's what researchers call the 'flexibility stigma' — the assumption that mothers are less available, less committed, more likely to leave early or miss deadlines. Even when the evidence says otherwise. Luna: And this isn't just about mothers. There's also a penalty for women without children, right? The 'childless woman' stereotype — she's seen as cold or overly ambitious, or people assume she'll leave to have kids eventually. Lucas: That's the double bind. Mothers are seen as less competent. Non-mothers are seen as less likable or as ticking time bombs. Either way, women can't win. Luna: It's exhausting. And it's one of those biases that feels especially stubborn because it's tied to deeply ingrained cultural scripts about caregiving. Lucas: Right. And the Cornell study also showed something else: the bias was equally strong among male and female managers. So it's not just 'men discriminating against women.' It's systemic. We all absorb these assumptions. Luna: That's a sobering finding. But it also means that awareness alone might not be enough. We need structural fixes, not just individual mindset shifts. Lucas: Speaking of structural fixes — and this connects directly — if you find conversations like this useful, one concrete way to keep them coming is to support the show. We keep Women at Work ad-free, and listener support on buy me a coffee dot com slash fexingo is what makes that possible. Luna: Yeah, it's a small way to say 'this content matters to me.' And it helps us keep digging into topics like this one — the ones that need data and nuance, not just headlines. Lucas: Exactly. And whether you choose to support or not, we're glad you're here. Now back to the maternal wall — what do companies actually do about this? One thing that helps is making promotion criteria transparent and tying them to objective output, not face time. Luna: So if a mother in your organization closes 20% more deals than her peers, and her project completion rate is top quartile, you can't argue she's not committed. Lucas: Right. But the data has to be visible. A lot of companies still rely on 'manager judgment' — which is just a pipeline for bias. When you force managers to justify a promotion decision against a scorecard, the maternal wall gets harder to build. Luna: There's also evidence that paid parental leave — for both parents — reduces the stigma for mothers, because it normalizes that everyone takes time off for caregiving. Not just women. Lucas: That's a great point. Countries like Sweden and Iceland have had some success with that approach. When fathers take substantial leave, the assumption that 'mothers are the default caregivers' weakens. And women's earnings actually bounce back faster. Luna: But even with good policies, individual women still face the wall every day. What's the practical advice for someone listening who's a mother or planning to be one, and doesn't want to get sidelined? Lucas: One thing that comes up in the research is the importance of sponsorship — not just mentorship. A mentor gives advice. A sponsor actively advocates for you when you're not in the room. And finding a sponsor who pushes back against the competence assumption is huge. Luna: And how do you find a sponsor? You can't exactly walk up to a senior leader and say 'be my sponsor.' Lucas: You can, actually — but it's better to let them see your value first. Volunteer for a visible project, document your wins, share your results. Then when the opportunity for a promotion comes up, you've already planted the seed. You can say, 'I'd like you to support my candidacy for X role.' Luna: Being explicit about what you want. That's a theme we've touched on in previous episodes — women often wait to be chosen, rather than stating their ambition outright. Lucas: And there's another tactic that specifically counters the flexibility stigma: frame your flexibility needs as a strength, not a liability. For example, if you work from home two days a week, you might say 'I've structured my week to give me deep focus blocks on those days, and my output has increased 30%.' Luna: That reframes the narrative. Instead of 'she's not here,' it becomes 'she's more productive when she's not here.' Lucas: Exactly. And it forces managers to confront the data. The Cornell study shows that when you present the numbers upfront, the bias shrinks. Not disappears, but shrinks. Luna: I also think about the role of allies — colleagues who can speak up in meetings. If a mother makes a great point and it gets ignored, an ally can say 'I think Sarah just made a really important observation, can we circle back to that?' Lucas: That's a low-cost, high-impact intervention. And it works for non-mothers too — anyone who's getting talked over. But for mothers, who face that competence assumption, having someone amplify your voice in real time is gold. Luna: So let's zoom out for a second. The maternal wall is real, it's measurable, and it costs organizations talent. Why aren't more companies taking this seriously? Lucas: Part of it is that bias is hard to see from the inside. The managers making the promotion decisions genuinely believe they're being fair. And until you show them the data — like 'you recommended 12 men and 3 women for leadership, and of those women, only one was a mother' — they don't realize the pattern. Luna: So data transparency is step one. Step two might be policy — like ensuring every promotion panel includes someone trained on unconscious bias, or requiring parental status to be redacted from initial screening. Lucas: Blind promotion reviews are still rare, but some firms are experimenting with them. And the early results are promising. When reviewers don't know if a candidate is a parent, the gender gap in promotions narrows significantly. Luna: It's almost too obvious, isn't it? Remove the information that triggers the bias, and the bias has less to work with. Lucas: Right. But of course, once the person is in the role, the bias can still show up in performance reviews, in stretch assignments, in networking opportunities. So it's not a silver bullet. Luna: No, but it's a start. And I think the broader takeaway is that the maternal wall isn't inevitable. It's built out of assumptions and structures that we can dismantle. Lucas: I love that framing. It's not inevitable. And the research shows that when companies commit to transparency, to paid leave for all parents, and to sponsorship programs, the wall starts to crack. Luna: And for the women listening — mothers or not — what's one thing you'd leave them with today? Lucas: Track your wins. Seriously. Keep a brag file — a document where you note every compliment, every project success, every number that shows your impact. Because when bias tries to tell a story about you not being committed, you'll have the data to tell a truer story. Luna: And share that data. Don't keep it hidden. Let your manager and your sponsor see it. Make it part of your narrative. Lucas: Exactly. Because the maternal wall is built on assumptions. And assumptions crumble when you put concrete results in front of them. Luna: Alright, that's a good note to end on. Thanks for the conversation, Lucas. Lucas: Thanks, Luna. Talk to you next time.