Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Vermon Pierre: Divided Culture, Beloved Church || SLP540

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Vermon Pierre: Divided Culture, Beloved Church || SLP540 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever thought about how your bank uses your savings?
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: What if I told you there's a fully regulated Christian bank that aligns your money with your faith?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: When you open a Kingdom Bank savings account, you help to provide vital mortgages for churches, Christian ministries, and gospel workers who might struggle to secure one elsewhere.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whether saving for yourself or on behalf of your church, your savings will support Christian ministries across the UK.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're ready to take your money out, you get it back with interest.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: If your spending and giving reflect your faith, shouldn't your savings as well?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Open a savings account with Kingdom Bank today and put your money where your heart is.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Visit Kingdom.bankslash speaklife.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Kingdom Bank is a member of the FSCS and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: What are your hopes and fears for race relations in the US and in particular in the church?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do I answer this?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't want to act as if things haven't changed in our country.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's almost a disservice towards um the many who came before me who have fought and died to provide me a space where I can be a black pastor of leading white people in my church, right?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's that would have been impossible uh in the early 20th century.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I praise God that like there's a lot of changes that have happened.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: But as a Christian with reformed leanings, like I don't act as if this particular sin has been has left us completely.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can pull the weeds, but to act as if like you don't need to tend a garden, I think is a huge mistake.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm joined on the line by Vermont Pierre.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: He is the lead pastor of Roosevelt Community Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and the author of some books, including Dearly Beloved, uh how God's love for his church deepens our love for each other.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he joins me from Phoenix.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, Vermont.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, good to be here.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much for for for joining me in an election year in the United States, uh, in which not only uh does the culture seem to be kind of tearing itself apart, but the church seems to be doing a pretty good job of uh of also sharpening sharpening its knives and and going to town on each other.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is a pretty this is a pretty timely book, dearly beloved.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell us some of the the heart behind this book and some of the the lived experience behind this book of why you wanted to write it.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: This book is very much inspired by uh previous election cycles.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: In many ways, what we're experiencing this year is now almost a norm.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Every uh well, not even just during election year, in years in between, our culture has become way more polarized among multiple lines, a number of different cultural issues, certainly COVID and other type of related racial issues, uh politics, but uh obviously being a central one.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I experienced that in the life of our church in 2016, uh in the first uh uh the Trump election when he won, and our church is a diverse multi-ethnic church, and up to that point, uh being a diverse church was a strength.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: People came to our church because it was a diverse church.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I think honestly, they were fine with it being a diverse church as long as they weren't aware of how maybe separate they were on certain different issues or political issues.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that election certainly brought all those things to the surface.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there was a lot of strife in our church.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm gonna say maybe three-quarters of the church ended up leaving.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was it was a rough time, those uh those uh the years uh after that election.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And multiple churches I know across the country have experienced that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: But at this point, we were one of the first, I think, to experience that.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I became just thinking, I've always been interested in community, especially trying to, I'm very much interested in multi-ethnic community, so I'm always thinking what brings different people together, what keeps them together.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that second one that's probably the more important one.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm finding it easy to bring people together.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can bring something that is generally attractive to lots of different types of people, but what actually keeps them together in legitimate community.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, as you've been thinking about this, really, especially considering the things that we faced, obviously we're talking about love.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: We want people to love one another.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's as Christians, as good Christians, we want to say we want people to love one another, that's what's gonna draw them together and keep them together.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I became curious about well, maybe maybe there's some better or stronger ways to talk about how we love one another that I have not tapped into that I should speak more of.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, the Bible has a lot of different ways of thinking about how we love one another.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we love one another as family.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's a love that happens as being sort of God's sheep, and God loves us as a shepherd, loves a sheep.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of different ways of thinking about love that we often tap into.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the ways that I don't think we think about as much is how love is among us in the way that God loves us as a beloved spouse.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so that really what's inspired the book.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of just accessing and understanding the fact that God, this sort of what I'm calling a beloved love, the marital love, the God's love of us as the bride of Christ is a love that flows from God to us, but it also I would say flows among us, uh, which it doesn't suggest that we're married to each other in the church, but there's a beloved love that we are now sitting in because of God's love for us that I think if we understand it well, uh opens up different ways, interesting ways, important ways of how we can love each other.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And as I sort of was saying before, uh some of the strongest, most vibrant ways we might experience love, I think come from understanding this beloved love of God, God's love in Christ to us as uh the church.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's fascinating.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll we'll get to how the the theology of belovedness actually uh flows itself out into embodied local church life and and perhaps uh more into uh church life at the at the universal church level and and loves across boundaries.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: We'll get into that.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: But let's let's start with that theological truth.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the son of the father has married a bride and filled her with his Holy Spirit, adorned her.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um in what in what sense uh do we press into the the uh the idea that we're married?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: In what sense do we press into the idea that the consummation awaits?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when when Jesus returns, um there will there will be, I guess, a a greater degree of of union?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it even possible to talk about greater degrees of of union when when Christ um comes again?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so to what degree are we married now?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: To what degree are we betrothed?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: To what degree are we awaiting consummation?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you put those things together?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think Ephesians five speaks of us already as being the bride of Christ.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we're already in uh a marital relationship.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're already, I mean, we're already betrothed to the Lord, uh, and betrothal in you know ancient context is essentially we're we're committed to him.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're to be married to him, but we're we're not fully the bride that we should be.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So Ephesians 5 talks about God, uh Christ loving us uh and giving up his life for us so that one day we're without spot or wrinkle, so we can actually be a faithful bride to Christ.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So God's work in our life through the Spirit, um, you know, is his spirit in our lives to allow us to then be in the type of marriage that will last forever, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so to you're right, I think the consummation awaits in the new heavens and new earth, but it's not as if like we're sort of we're dating the Lord, right?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's we are his uh committed spouse.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: We are we belong to him and he belongs to us.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we're talking in the spiritual sense, right?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's some metaphorical language here, but uh but in a real legitimate sense, uh this sense of, and I think that metaphor the Bible uses is such an intentional one because I think it speaks to the type of love that God has for us.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um ways in which the Word loves us.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really interesting and very intentional that the Lord wants us to understand that right now we're loved with an intimate love, with uh a committed love, uh a love of delight and affection.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these are all sort of ways in which we love uh that are especially resonant when you think of a marriage relationship.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the word wants us now to think of it that way.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and all the language of the Bible speaks of the Lord loving us with affection, with delight, with intimacy.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: He lives with us now, so we're already living together, which is what spouses do.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the full, obviously, breadth of it awaits to when we're actually now able to be fully the bride that we want the Lord wants us to be.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do we fit together the corporate and the individual um elements of this?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because I guess corporately we are the bride of Christ, but I Glenn Scrivener, I am not the bride of Christ.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: So so how do we how do we fit those things together?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean this is um this really applies it it puts emphasis on the sense of the church as community to many ways to really draw out what I'm talking about here.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um it does emphasize the degree in which our faith is lived in community with other people.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I can experience God's love for me uh as his savior, um as the the one who's rescued me and redeemed me as an individual, right?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: That that's that's all true.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um but he's rescued and redeemed me to bring me into community, right?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this sense of way, this is a way of thinking about God's redemption and salvation of us as a people.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um that uh I'm glad you sort of brought up sort of that that distinction.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not as if I'm individually married to the Lord, um, I am married to the Lord to the degree in which I'm part of this broader community, which knits me together, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: So my faith does only really make sense in connection with other people, and the experience of the Lord's love is really only fully um uh manifested, I could say, uh to the degree in which I'm sort of operate, I'm I'm I'm operating, understanding myself in connection with other with other Christians.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um so this is the accent here is on community, but community then allows me to experience as at an individual level that love, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: That intimate, uh affectionate love of the Lord.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that is so helpful because I I I think so often we imagine that the high point of the spiritual life is me as a Christian sitting on the edge of my bed with my own Bible in my lap, and I've got my own verses that I really like that I've underlined in my Bible, listening to my Spotify playlist of my worship songs that I like.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you're you're telling me no, the the high point is actually a corporate thing.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're being brought into um uh into a family, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're not an only child of God, right?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you have um well a lot of times we operate that way, as if we're the only child of of the Lord.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: But no, you're part of a family.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're part of a temple with many living stones, and you're part of a bride, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: A bride that it really only makes sense to the degree in which we understand ourselves in communion with other people.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me about okay, so what does that mean for okay, Sunday morning?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I I show up on Sunday morning.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's what what are my expectations?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do I calibrate my heart to what I'm about to receive and what I'm about to um bestow on others?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it it it really puts um especially unique nature to Sunday morning.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can we can do things to lessen what Sunday morning can and should be, and we have.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh we can make Sunday morning way more of a consumeristic experience.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we can make Sunday morning and approach Sunday morning uh way more in a kind of uh like I'm going to a concert or or something like that.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you can get stuff out of that, no doubt.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the full sort of flowering of and the full experience of what we're meant to have and know when we gather with other Christians is that sense of you're coming into this, it's a way of us living life together with God and with one another.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that can't happen apart from being together.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean I do think it emphasizes the significance of, I mean, COVID, we had to make adjustments, but I think post-COVID we realize how tragic it was to miss the sense of face to face at the same time in the same place, type of thing.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um because that's that's what that's how we can really only really love, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's the only way you can love your spouse.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you have to be at the same time, at the same place on a regular basis.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so Sunday morning becomes, I think, a unique space to experience love in a very intentional and unique way that you cannot experience um in any other way.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yes, you know, so I'm a real believer in, and I think the word has given us things that help um help us actualize that.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh communion is a participation in the body of Christ.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the body that died for us in order to make his bride.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so communion becomes an experience of how much the word has loved us, and as we take it with one another, we begin to experience that love we have for one another through that same way.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Sunday morning becomes uh so to approach communion in that sense, um, I think the word gives us that to help us experience that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the singing together, the hearing of the word, all these different things.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um many ways I'm sort of putting a theological sort of underpinnings behind these normal practices and saying to the when we're the more we're aware of those things, I think the spirit actualizes that in our lives.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we begin to see then and experience Sunday morning at at that at that level.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um it helps us to lean in, you might say, as well.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it helps us to even see Sunday morning not as something I need to do and then get over with.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I I say Sunday morning, not just the worship service, because then it becomes when we get there before a Sunday morning worship service, how long we hang out afterwards, who we speak to, all those type of things.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if we've understanding that that that that that space becomes really is almost a central point to launch into the life of the church, um, yeah, I think it it it allows us to approach and um inhabit Sunday morning in a much different way, uh, but a way that I think is the way Sunday morning is meant to be.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, with with a sense of expectation and and yeah.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever thought about how your bank uses your savings?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: What if I told you there's a fully regulated Christian bank that aligns your money with your faith?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: When you open a Kingdom Bank savings account, you help to provide vital mortgages for churches, Christian ministries, and gospel workers who might struggle to secure one elsewhere.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whether saving for yourself or on behalf of your church, your savings will support Christian ministries across the UK.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're ready to take your money out, you get it back with interest.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: If your spending and giving reflect your faith, shouldn't your savings as well?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Open a savings account with Kingdom Bank today and put your money where your heart is.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Visit kingdom.bankslash speaklife.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Kingdom Bank is a member of the FSCS and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: In the UK and and in Australia, I think, to a degree, in evangelicalism, I th I think there's a kind of a tendency to see Romans 12, 1 and 2 as kind of what worship is, you know, we offer our bodies as living sacrifices.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's 24-7.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that the emphasis goes completely on I'm worshiping 24-7, and I'm no more worshiping Jesus, you know, at 10 a.m.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: on a Sunday morning than I am at 6 p.m.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: on a Tuesday night.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I always want to say to people, um that would be like me saying, I'm always married to my wife.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we we never have date nights.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: We just we we just we're we're totally against date nights because that would suggest that we are less married on on on the times you know at the times when we're not you know experiencing date night.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: But no, because we're married 24-7, we have that date night, we have and we have that sense of expectation and and um and and there is something special about that and something that nourishes the rest of life because you keep you know that that thing special.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So as yeah, you know, well just say I mean it just goes back to what you we were talking about before, the significance of community.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't I to sort of what it tends to be then, a Romans 12 sort of approach, which is true, it tends to then emphasize more of an individual basis of um of of of your Christian life.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I'm worshiping and and worshiping all the different things I'm doing as an individual.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And sure I might gather here and there are different people, right?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: But like the reality is it is a it's sort of it's it's you terror making your worship, your worship of the Lord, right, in a sort of very individual life.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: But your life is does not just belong to yourself, it belongs to other people.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so to and I think church is a way in which we're saying I'm willing to be in communion with these people and to actualize that by being in the same place at the same time with these people at some regular basis, right?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: If that's not true in your life, then I I it might sound a little bit bold to say this, but I think you're you're living a much more shriveled Christian faith, if I can put it brightly.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I I can't imagine living a Christian life apart from some type of uh and again, just levels of formality to this, but it is a way of saying I'm willing to say, I'm willing to go in this direction with this group of people.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's been true for thousands of years.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is why the the marriage analogy is just so so helpful.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the idea of getting getting back to the top of the aisle after marrying somebody and and saying, you know, see you next Tuesday.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um that that's not why you got married, right?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you you talk about how that marital love is is experienced together as church and then kind of flows between members of the body.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So so how do how do we start to think about how I pass on this belovedness to one another?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so just Romans 5.5, uh God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit has been given to us.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's just one verse among many that sort of speaks of how God's love is now in our lives.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so um how you know nothing separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so what does that mean when you really think about the the implication of that?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of what I'm arguing here is when we think of God's love poured into our hearts by the Spirit, that nothing separates us, uh Romans 8, nothing separate us from God's love in Christ Jesus.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I say it's all of God's love that's been put in us.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: God is generous, he puts, he isn't like sort of partial out some of his love, he's poured all of his love into our hearts.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so that love is a familial love, right?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh God loving us as a father, it's the love of a shepherd, uh, and so that is almost like a guiding, protecting love.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also the love of a spouse.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a beloved love.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so uh one of one of the things I often say as a sort of quick sentence of describing this is to say that I'm beloved to you and you're beloved to me because we're all beloved to God in Christ Jesus.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that language is important for me because uh I'm not you know suggesting that we treat each other as we're married to one another, right?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Spiritual speaking, we're only married to the Lord as a community.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um but as I think of how I want to be, how I want to see you and treat you, if God's spirit is in me, um, the word's spirit is in me, that means I have to see you and treat you the way the word would want me to.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I have to I'm gonna see you with the Lord's eyes.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have inclinations towards you as the Lord would want me to.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: How would the word want me to treat Glenn or other people in say we're in the same local church?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: How would he want me to treat them?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: He wants me to treat them as a beloved spouse, as as as precious to me as you are to him.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and what I'm gonna draw from, um, we already know.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you imagine like within us, there's a well of love, and sin corrupts that well.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can love people, but often with selfish motives, uh, with hypocritical uh agendas, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that well has been polluted by sin.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: What God does in Christ Jesus is now refill that well, but not with our own love, his love, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm gonna draw from that well, and I'm when I want to sort of that part of the well I'm gonna particularly encourage us to draw more from is that beloved love.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: We can draw, we draw often from the familial aspects, and those things are good.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think in this sort of day and age, I want to sort of draw from the parts of the well that help us lean in more towards one another, to bring in categories of love we don't often think about, so we don't think about intimacy in the life of the church often or affection, delighting in each other, having passion for one another.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Those are words that very much apply in a marriage.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to sort of draw and tap into the fact that we've been brought together in God's love, in his beloved love.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine this ocean of love we're swimming in.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so if I want to relate to other people, I want to swim next to them.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna swim in the same ocean.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's the ocean of his beloved love.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think as you begin to have that sort of understanding, it just opens up categories and even just uh surprising ways of thinking about, well, did there's a way in which I can sort of have intimate love in the life of in a real sort of powerful way, and I think a way that really helps people who are single or who aren't married uh or who aren't married or whatever, you know, there's a lot of different inspections of people in the life of the church, some married or not married, having difficulties in marriage.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's ways in which we can experience some of the really the vitality of what of love is in a marriage, intimacy and delight and affection in the life of the church.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, his love has now flowed into our hearts in and through Christ Jesus.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: It opens up sort of channels of loving that I think are in some very practical ways that I think are really interesting and helpful and help us be together as a church.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get practical.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get practical because I'm I'm often reminded of the peanuts cartoon where I think it's Linus who says, I I love mankind, it's just people I can't stand.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's it's the it's very easy to nurse a sense of love in our hearts.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh that's put to the test, as especially as you are thrown together with a whole group of people as you are in a local church, and you're thrown together with the people who are different from you, and and it would be easy if we all just went off to Starbucks and we all put the the ear pods in and we just you know tapped away on our laptops, you know, together alone.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: But we're we're not called to be together alone, we're called to be together together and to bump up against one another.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: So give me some practical help when someone has I'm guessing you would say I need to go and draw from the wells of belovedness.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So take us to that well and then and then we'll try and apply that to various fractures and difficult situations.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: But practically, how do I draw from that well in a way that actually transforms community life?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So let me answer that by sort of first saying I think there's things we do that help us be better prepared for when fractures happen, right?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I think if we're sort of regularly cultivating beloved love in the life of the church, it does put an emphasis on being together regularly.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so you presence is absolutely required, right, for a married relationship.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the word lives with us.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because the word with us, we live with one another.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um you might say it's simple geography.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we're gonna be close to Jesus, we're happy to be inevitably close to other people.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actualized by, as we talked about, being together in the church.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we can talk more about this later, but I you know, one of the things I talk about is you know, intimate love in the life of the church.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think does mean um I sort of want to reclaim that the importance of physical touch in the life of the church, um, almost a way of operationalizing the holy kiss.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um holy kiss five times in the New Testament.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Five times.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's that's a lot of commands.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I've I've thought about this in terms of if you think about what was happening there, you know, the early church was Jews and Gentiles, uh, and Paul is asking Jews and Gentiles to greet one another with a holy kiss.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Jews wouldn't even eat with Gentiles.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Gentiles look at Jews as as you know um stuck up religious snobs, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And yet here is this intimate act uh that the Lord is saying should be normal in the life of these of these churches.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so it just sort of suggests that there's something now again that's been misused and abused in the life of the church, and so it this I say that with sort of carefulness of when I say reclaiming touch uh in churches, but you know, and obviously in different contexts it was differently.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in in safe and good ways, what what does it look like in your church?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because like uh like in some parts of the I I go to the church in in Belgium, Bel Belgium men kiss each other all the time.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just it's just one of the one of these sorts of things.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's it's an incredibly culturally conditioned thing.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, in in Britain that's very much the holy handshake.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: But uh what what is it what does it look like at Roosevelt Community Church?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I I think it's important, for example, um in our church we have a number of people come in who are um you know who are from coming from the streets, who've been sleeping, you know, outside or other things like that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when they come in for prayer, I pretty regularly will put a hand on them, draw close to them uh in some particular way to really sort of to to it's a way of acknowledging the presence, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um and affirming like God's love for them even through that sort of physical touch.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um for people I know better, yeah, and there's there's uh you know, you don't just do this for some random person, but a way of sort of further solidifying our relationship is by the hugs I give to people, right?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, depending on the person that that looks a little bit differently.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I do like uh at times in prayer, we might hold hands during prayer.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's little things like that that actually mean a lot um when you particularly how you do them, who you do them to.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the way in which you sort of you draw near to people, uh the way you notice people, yeah, and the way that you're willing to acknowledge that presence by that, as I said, the hand on the shoulder and those other things.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, just uh look, I want to get back to your original question.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think there's one of the things I'm trying to do here is just say, um, because that's one of the things I was trying to do is say, okay, this happened in 2016, how can I better inoculate us against what happens in the future?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a way of thinking, here's these practices that help sort of bring more webs of connection to each other, more sense of love for one another, so that when something hits us, uh we're ready to sort of knit together in ways that we can withstand it, or we has we there's some channels we can fall back into uh that make it easier to navigate those things.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: But conflict does happen.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh how do we navigate those, uh how do we navigate those times of conflict?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, in any marriage relationship, uh marriages don't work unless uh you're willing to show grace, right?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And grace is just an amazing theological concept that allows us to, if every time you had conflict with your spouse, um and you sort of said, well, forget it, like then you wouldn't be married.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so much of this we learn first, let's look at how the ward navigates conflict with us.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: What does he do?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, he he doesn't ignore the issue, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be addressed.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: There needs to be confession, right, and forgiveness before there can be reconciliation.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the word always is might say is willing to stay in the room with us, right?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um that the word doesn't abandon us, but is always creating space for us to deal with the things that we need to deal with to confess the things that need to be deal with to be dealt with so that it can be forgiveness and ultimately reconciliation.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of call that the tools of grace.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: So grace is the overall concept.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: God showing favor towards us and the favor he shows towards us is saying, I'm not divorcing you, I'm gonna stay in a relationship with the church.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: But then for grace to really have its full effect, you need the tools of grace: forgiveness, confession, um, repentance, uh, sometimes repair and reconciliation, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: All those things are active.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: So those tools are also present to us then.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like to imagine it as what I want to encourage people to do is to say, hey, imagine there's this house that we're in.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want you to leave the house.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um now you may be in separate parts of the house, right, for a little while because of the issue and how severe it is, and I that's that's sad but understandable.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the house is a way, think of it as the house of God's grace.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm willing to stay in the house, and eventually I want to get you in the same room.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And in that room, that we may be in that room for a while, right, as we sort of move through these levels.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think the way we work through the conflict is then beginning to say, okay, what's present?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: To what degree is confession need to happen, and that needs to be matched by willingness to forgive, and that can take a while.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, once there's forgiveness, there might be repentance or repair needed, and then you can leave that house reconciled, right?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: But to many ways, many ways I want to say the church provides a space where we can at least stay in the same house and know here's the tools available to us, readily available to us that the Lord has provided to us, and that that's why we're still in a relationship with the Lord.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm still a Christian.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the Lord is always showing grace towards me and always sort of saying, look, here's what can it can take to be back.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um here's a sin that needs to be confessed, here's a forgiveness I'll provide, here's what repentance looks like in your life, so there can be reconciliation.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um it just provides sort of the sense then that there's no sort of conflict or issue that can't be dealt with at some level.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, reconciliation doesn't always mean everything goes back to normal.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's I I there's all the caveats you want to put on that.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: But we begin to see that the I mean it's one of the best things about Christianity, like the the opportunities we have to address any particular issue that's there and the space the world gives us to do so, so that we can still be in communion with each other.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Give us an example then of um in your life or in the life of of your church, um yeah, that sort of love across divide, love across difficulty, um, and and yeah, how you personally went about it, because I think putting flesh on the bones would really help.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: So in a church like ours, we have people um who are from a lot of different social classes, uh different ethnicities, and uh different uh political opinions.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh for me, you know, it's been you know one of the pastors I've I've pastored with for a long time here.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um he's left to help plant a new church in another part of town.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but for he helped plant a church with me.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's an older white guy, Presbyterian.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm Baptist.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're very different.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what's been interesting to me is initially there was you know, some we had some conflict over like baptism, right?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: How would baptism look like in our church?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was clear too, we have some very sort of different political leanings.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think what that has looked like is uh, and this is like and this is the benefit of time, right?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So 20 years now of relationship with him, of us having the sort of the sense that we can create space for each other to uh to voice things.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: So he often comes to me when he's like, okay, here this happens, usually like a racial issue.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're a person I can talk to about this, right?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of share what I'm thinking, and know that I'm sort of because of how we've leaned to get we lean in towards towards another in other conflict, right?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's created space, and so like even the baptism issue, we've sort of had a lot of different meanings trying to hear from one another and trying to create space for what that how we're gonna do that in the in the life of the church.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: That was for something theological, but then when the racial issue comes, we sort of had that sense of I'm gonna be and I'm always gonna be gracious to you, but also want to sort of say, here's what this means, here's how I'm looking at this.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I have on one end created space for him to be able to voice those things.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: He on the other hand has created space for me to say things that he needs to hear and to be challenged by and to not initially reject him, but to absorb them.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's also a level of trust here, and so that he um the fact that we have a relationship with others means that he's always going to prioritize hearing from me and how I'm thinking of things, I've which I've built over over time, as opposed to you know what uh a news pundit has said.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: That becomes really helpful, right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not, he's never coming into a conversation with me on a issue trying to pit me against his favorite pundit, right?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's I've heard this, it makes me think this way, but um years of relationship with you, Vermont, makes me say I need to first at least hear what you have to say.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: I say this to say that like we don't we still don't agree on different things, and he has challenged me on different things and vice versa.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: But there's sort of a basic what I what I'm noticing is being community together provides a basic level of trust that that in some respects I don't I'm gonna give to other white guys, put it that way.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he can challenge me in ways because he knows me and knows a little bit of how I think through things, and I've proven myself.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's the other thing, too, I think that's really helpful to hear.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the importance of community, and especially community that's been done over a long period of time.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a certain level of trust that's been proven, and so um you almost build your banking in many ways.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of the different every single time, and that's the thing away too, especially if you're initially in a church community, every single time you don't run away from conflict but you work through it, it's like you're putting money in the bank, right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you're continuing to build levels and levels of foundation so that when maybe a particular build big conflict has come, you've had years of how you've been able to sort of deal with it.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think this the significance of not running away at the first first blush uh when there's conflict, and really then leaning in towards um some of the things we just talked about.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what does it look like to address the issue?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a willingness to confess and forgive and repent does a lot for all future conflicts.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's why I think we've been able to sort of maintain now again, it this doesn't always work.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: If I write another book, I want to sort of think through like when it doesn't work, how do you what do you deal with it?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's we have examples of that in the Bible.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um the word always provides pathways for us to come back.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's been that's been my experience.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: What are your hopes and fears for race relations in the US and in particular in the church?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's about 60 years since Martin Luther King said that you know 11 a.m.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: on a Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in American life.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um that has that changed in any way?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um in what in what sense can the church um model something that the the the nation might lean into and and and and see as good news?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um how do I answer this?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I would say um, well, I sort of my answer tends to sort of uh it points in sort of both directions.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't I don't want to act as if things haven't changed in our country.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's almost a disservice towards um the many who came before me who who have fought and died to provide me a space where I can be a black pastor leading white people in my church, right?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's that would have been impossible uh in the early 20th century.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so um and I think also, too, it's it's it's miraculous what's happened in this country.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: It shouldn't have happened.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's uh the Museum of Um African-American History in Washington, DC, great museum that I visited.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um one of the things I sort of I was also overwhelming just how bad um racism and structur uh structural racism was in this country.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not just sort of cultural, but just in how embedded we realize you spent most of the museum seeing just uh how much slavery there was, what slower was, and the and how deeply embedded it was in the life of this country, how much money was being made off of it.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then Jim Crow uh era that happened afterward, desegregation, all these other things.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um we spend more time in our country with sort of formalized racism and structured racism than uh without it, right?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's miraculous that any change happened um in any way.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I praise God that like things there's a lot of changes that have happened.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um but as someone as a as a Christian with reformed leanings, like I don't act as if like we're that sin is this this particular sin has been has left us completely.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I talk about racism in our country because of I think the length of time in which we've had it um is almost like it's like weeds in the garden, right?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can pull the weeds, but to act as if like you don't need to tend a garden, I think is a huge mistake.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's been interesting to me, particularly in the age of the internet and other things, which allows you to be more anonymous, how much of websites that allow anonymity and ability to sort of say what you want to say, they're breeding grounds for racism and misogyny those things.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost as if once you it's sort of culturally bad to sort of be overtly racist, but but if you give opportunities for people to be secretly racist, they'll jump on it.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, and I also don't want to imagine like the civil rights era solved every aspect of structural racism in our country.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so areas of voting rights and other things were addressed.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of other areas like justice system, other things, where arguably um not everything was addressed in the ways that we want to.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you're asking me sort of where I see our country right now, I I see this as uh there's a lot of work that was done to remove what was for a long period of time structural racism in this country.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's many lingering effects uh and there's many sort of still and there's weeds that's some that still crop uh that still crop up.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and many of us are aware of it.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um whether we're willing to do anything about it, I think, is is the big question.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are periods of time recently where it seemed like there was consensus of like, hey, we're on the same page to deal with these things because I think racism doesn't just hurt black people or minorities, it hurts all of us, right?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's and I think Dr.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: King has sort of was one of his strongest things he says is this is this isn't good for our country in general.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just sort of what we we need to get, we we're just fighting for ourselves, we're fighting for the benefit of our country in general.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why you know I want to address these things and bring these things up.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think the polarization of our country, um, and that's infected the church, has made it harder to do it.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's made it interesting, it's made it remarkably harder on one end to just be willing to confess, yeah, these things are true, right?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um the sort of resistance on from one side of the political aisle, like I can't we can't admit these things are true.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: We gotta act as if like all racism in our country is totally gone.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not um so it's just a remarkable me that like we as Christians should be more willing to confess than anyone else, right?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's on one end.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: But the other end is almost as if confess, if you confess, hey, these issues are here, you're gonna be sort of canceled, destroyed, pushed out, right?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so on that other side, then it there's no space for, like we said, forgiveness, repentance, right?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Change, repair, all the things that just don't, it's not no that you can't you can't ever be restored, right?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you've confessed anything in those areas, then you're gonna be sort of smashed down.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it puts us in this sort of weird space, if I could put it that way.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, ideally, the church is better poised than anyone else to, on one end, be more honest than anyone about the sins of racism and our past and even its current uh effects and the ways in which it can turn it continues to, like a like a garden with weeds or like a cancer that keeps coming back, we shouldn't be surprised that a country with the history that we have has at different points, sometimes falls back into what happens.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's that why would we be surprised?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's how sin works.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the church should be a space where we can be more honest than anyone else, but a church should also be a space where we can be more hopeful than anyone else, right?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Which is to say that the church should be able to say, it is possible for change.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to be, there's some out there who's like, well, no, where country will always be this way.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Almost as if, like, uh, you know, certain this country would just always be sort of inherently racist in some particular way.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no answer besides just sort of the oppressed now being the oppressor, right?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the press, the oppressor going back down to being the oppressed.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we're squapping places.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: The church provides, like, no, there's always a better path.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's sort of, we're both coming to the same place.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: We both need the Lord, we both need Jesus, so we can be more hopeful than anyone else.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's the unique power of the church.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's a power that uh sadly uh I would yeah, the American Church has not is does not seem to be doing very well into drawing it to on one end the honesty, like being honest about racism, and the other end uh so some the the hopefulness, right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the pathways of restoration repair that can actually fix things.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's always available to us.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and you've you've uh sort of labeled your church as a a multi-ethnic church.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you you said to me, yeah, Roosevelt Community Church is a multi-ethnic church, which is like at at one and the same time sort of hopeful and depressing.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I like i i like in that you know, you cause you 'cause you it should be like, well, shouldn't every church be a multi-ethnic church?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Even the fact that you have to say that um i is kind of a depressing thing, isn't it?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like shouldn't shouldn't judge by by its very nature.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've read Ephesians 3.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the dividing wall of hostility is down, um to create one new humanity in Christ.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um all churches should be multi-ethnic churches.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you um so how do you um how do you navigate that?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because um it can't go without saying if you if you see what I mean.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like like to say that you're multi-ethnic in in in your setting, it it it it doesn't go without saying.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: We we want to strive for the time when it does go without saying, but we're not there yet.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is is that part of you know why why you're sort of naming the issue and and addressing it very head on?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think um yeah, you know, a lot of people find our church uh because uh they're looking for some more diverse community.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I in some way that's great that people are finding the church, but it does make me sad because it because there's so there's not it's not the norm.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um you know increasingly if there is any even well it's one one end, there's it's not the norm, but even for churches that are somewhat diverse, they they're diverse at a very superficial level.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's almost like they're providing sort of the equivalent of like McDonald's or something like that.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's just we know what to do to bring people together at a very basic level, but let's not do anything that makes them know each other in any particular way, right?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because then the tension will happen.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I've noticed that, particularly certain in certain uh when certain issues come up and they won't touch them.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: But what I'm what I'm after for is deep community, right?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not just when I'm not trying to gather an audience together, I'm trying to bring people together in as one body, right?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: As one family, as one bride.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that requires uh, and even at times when it's painful, these type of conversations and relationships.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And some of it, because I'm an American pastor uh in this particular context, I don't know how you can do um pastoring well if you're not sort of aware of and cognizant of the um the history of our country and the ways it continues to have effects for people in your community who you know for our spectrum, right?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so the people the different things that happen in our in our in our community will affect people differently, uh depending on your education level, your gender, um, and your race, ethnicity, any number of different factors.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think as best as possible, I want to try to be aware of those things for the people God is bringing, because we are in community with a lot of different types of people.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And but not just me aware, but we're just as a community consciously aware, uh, so that we're then better better able to minister each other, better able to love one another, be able to love my spouse well.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have to know the unique aspects of who she is.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the word has done towards me.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I want to do it towards others.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that doesn't mean I'm gonna sort of entirely inhabit their issues, but I should be able to sympathize.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the degree in which I'm able to do that, that degree of understanding actually then allows me to speak more into her.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: So my wife isn't right about everything, but I've earned that ability to speak into her by showing I do care about her and know her personally.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I clearly don't know everything, right?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so she has perspectives as um she's Hispanic, uh, she's a woman, uh, she lived here in Phoenix.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's different aspects that she notices that I need to receive.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can't sort of up put sort of what my perspective entirely on her.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the two together come together and bring something really powerful and beautiful, a marriage.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the church is set up the same way.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Something that can't uh uniquely something that can't be present apart from God bringing different peoples together.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and something beautiful about about that coming together, and it's a it's a witness to even principalities and powers if you read in in Ephesians three, that that somehow, oh my goodness, can you really get Jew and Gentile together in one body and break down the the dividing wall of hostility?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um that that preaches to angels and demons and like this is um and and definitely preaches to the culture.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um John thirteen.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: 35.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: By this all people will know that you're my disciples if you love one another.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and of course Jesus Jesus sort of came at the heart of a culture war in which there are uh Essenes and Herodians and tax collectors and Pharisees and and people um at each other's throats.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: But by this all people will know that you're my disciples if you love if you love one another.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um tell tell me more about from 2016.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: You said you l you lost almost three quarters of your of your people.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um like how do how do you how does that happen?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and like what what what are some of the dynamics at play um that mean that that happens and and then like w where does it where does your heart and mind go as as a pastor?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's it's um it wasn't easy.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I uh some ways it was surprising.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's I don't think I was as keenly aware of it um when it when as it was happening.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um it sort of just I just started sort of navigating trying because there's also uh an issue with one of the pastors in our church got into moral failure, so it was just a collision of a couple different things, and then COVID happens.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, when I sort of looked at the numbers, I realized like, oh wow, like we're we're a third of what we used to be.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, before 2016, we're about to start a second service, all these things were happening.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then two or three years later, I began, I was, I took a pay cut actually for a year.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh well we backtrack and say this.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was it was hard and difficult, and there's a lot of pressures a lot of different ways.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think people left because um, and the wake of 2016, what we did was particularly some of the minorities, but not just minorities in our church, we're sort of feeling a lot of different things in the wake of Trump being elected and the different dialogue that's happening in our country.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always said the church and that gospel is big enough and strong enough to have conversations on the most difficult issues, right?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think about the issues we talk about in the life of the church, sexuality, um, all these other issues, right?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um we should be able to have space to talk about these things.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we created these sort of listening sessions where different elders' homes, people come together, share what they're thinking about, and we pray with one another.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh it's funny to me because I think about what we did was pretty mild compared to some friends of mine.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what they were doing, but just that um caused a number of people to say, Well, our church is becoming political.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um for some people it was yeah, because they lean far right.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this is not an issue.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to hear, I don't I didn't even know people cared about this.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: The suggestion that people sort of didn't like the the election or will push back on that was just like that's not why I came here, right?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or that's not what I want to hear.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: So a number of people left for that.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: People other people left because just sensing the tension and strife, um, even though if they didn't land in one particular way, um they're like, uh, you know what, I just want something easier, right?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there's another reason why people left.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was it's suddenly some people did live because like they just didn't like the and this is a smaller percentage, but some people left because they realized, oh, there are conservative people in this church.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I wasn't aware of them, some of them I was friends with.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just actually don't let that.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want that at all.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're sort of not saying I've said we will not make a test of membership like who you vote for.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting, I've said that a number of times, and yet I think, and people like nod, but actually I think they want me to make it a test of membership, right?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Which is to say, okay, if I get the sense that like you vote in a particular way that they don't feel is Christian, um, then we should I should challenge it, call them to repentance, etc.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we've said we want to be church, we could challenge each other on those things, but it's not a test of your membership or who you who you are in Christ.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's so just even that sort of, I think in many ways, that us deciding that is what began to push people out.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um how we came through it was um really I actually I went on a sabbatical, my elders suggested I do that, and I didn't want to, but it was good I did that.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: I thought like the church is in a precarious state, we're not we're gonna survive.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I came back from the sabbatical and saying, look, here's what I believe in.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: I believe in the gospel, uh, we're gonna preach Jesus, but I still believe preaching Jesus allows us to confront the most difficult issues.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we might not do it well, um, but we're gonna do it.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna try our best to do it.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: That we're gonna talk about issues from the same framework, right?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to use biblical values as we might argue on different political or cultural issues.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna tie you to those biblical values, but here's what it looks like.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: We may differ on some of the particulars, but I we I can't how what does it say for a church like ours as a verse church to say, like, oh, this issue is too hot, too hot for us to touch.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the gospel is strong enough, the kingdom is built for these type of things.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so me saying that was important, and then the reason I'm still at the church is that my elder team said the same thing and said, we believe that too as well.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: If I didn't have that, I don't know if I'd still be able to do what I was doing.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I would say I'm willing to lose people over this.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not because I want to, but because it's it's I think it's it's faithful to what I see in the scriptures.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't see anywhere where the the the early apostles were saying, you know, the church is not a safe place to talk about hard issues or difficult issues, issues of sin.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um or the church should sort of be a lot okay with a very superficial type of relationship among different.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh so yeah, so that's I think that really was key for us.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so we did drop significantly.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I took a pay cut to make things work, and this has always happened, so I don't take that this isn't uh I'm not doing prosperity gospel promise like this always happens, but um it did bounce back.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we're we're not quite where we were, but in many ways we're like we're way stronger um in all on almost all the other factors.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the word allows us to pay off for building a year or two ago, um, which was looked impossible that you know back in 2016, given the what happened uh with uh with our church.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's more people sort of understanding what we're trying to do and wanting to lean into that.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there was definitely a I say for I know a number of churches who are sort of down at the bottom of that bell curve, if I compare that, or bottom of the curve, um, experiencing a lot of this right now, and it feels like, man, like what what have I done?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people sort of retreat from that.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say, look, if the Lord is, I think the Lord calls us to address these things, don't retreat from those things.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's ways in which I still want to minister to the people who've left for sure, but how important, how much better it is to be in a place where we really believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is able to bring people together across differences and allow us to surface those differences and navigate those things.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because we're sort of doing it in the same space around Jesus.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I often think about, I mean, it goes back to the first group of people around Jesus, those those disciples.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think of Matthew, the tax collector, with Simon the Zealot.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I can't I have to, you know, you have one who wants to overflow the government, another guy who works for the government, right?
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't I'm curious about what kind of conversations they had together.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would I would argue they probably didn't agree on the Roman Empire, right?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: They had a good mediator with them, but Jesus is great.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is able to bring uh Simon the Zealot and Matthew the tax collector together.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: He's still able to do that.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, through that, through that down and that up, um you've learned so much, you've gone on that sabbatical, you've s you know studied for this book and and and written this book.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um as we draw things to a close, what did you learn in in the in the process of um navigating all these issues and in thinking about dearly beloved?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: What um what kind of gripped your heart in a way that you you weren't quite expecting, or yeah, what what what were some some truths that uh weren't on your radar but suddenly they were they were right front and center and and were helping you?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: For one thing, uh just the the fervency of God's love for us, um almost a you know we speak of God being a jealous God, and it's a it's not a sort of angry jealousy, it's just he's that passionate for intimacy and connection with us.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I don't think I realize just how much the description is suffused with this, how how how the zealousness of the Lord's passion to be with us.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that so that just uh I mean in many ways overwhelming that the Lord would love us in this way, in this very particular way.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then really sort of a thought I've had is that we're sort of now on this trajectory where it only sort of grows and gets better and better, right?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: That one of the things I say towards the end of the book that sort of stuck with me is that essentially the Lord is building this, building us and leading us in this time where basically every day gets better and better, right, with him.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: To the point where you know a Monday in the new heavens and earth is going to be amazing with the Lord and with one another.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then Tuesday will happen, and Monday will be like, oh, that was we're ready for past Monday, right?
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Already it would be way better in significance and love and passion and intimacy with the Lord and with one another.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: Then Tuesday we'll go and then Wednesday will come in in the new heavens and earth, and we're ready, like, wow, like we I thought Tuesday was great, but this was even better, right?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: And just knowing that that is where we're headed, and that that no, it's more ups and downs there in this side of heaven.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it is actually happening, right, in a particular way.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like that's gonna just magically appear.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: God is building us towards that direction, and maybe me then notice that more in even in small ways.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, even some of the relationship I have with people over 20 years and seeing how the word has improved them and increased them such that each day is better and better.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's uh the best marriages are this way, aren't they?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the the the deepest, most passionate love you'll find is between two seven-year-olds, right, who have been married to each other for years and years.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not um, yeah, I mean, we're always amazed by those 20-somethings who just got married, uh, and the passion and ver fervently of their love, but the deepest, most lasting love is those who've had it over years and years.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we have right now with the Lord.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's super encouraging.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's especially the uniqueness of that.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: No other religion or philosophy out there speaks of a relationship with the God, right?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or however they sort of conceive of God or or higher beings in this particular way.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we have it, and we get to experience it now and know it's only increasing.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's something I think a lot about, and that um it's been helpful for me to just even notice it how the word is manifesting that in many ways in in my life and the life of the church.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, beautiful, beautiful.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, Vamon, um obviously the next thing people need to do uh to to take this deeper is go and get Dearly Beloved um from all good book all good bookstores and even some bad ones too.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um you can go and get Dearly Beloved.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so in addition to getting the book, uh are there other ways that people can uh kind of keep up with you online?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, you know, I'm on Facebook, Instagram.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm not posting a lot right now, but I'm hopefully going to relaunch some of the stuff I'm doing there in those areas, so you can easily search for me there.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: Rooseveltchurch.org is the name of our uh is our church's website.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so if they want to see, uh we have a podcast called the Unsilent Church that you can access there.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can also access that um uh on Spotify and uh Apple Music.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do that with two other guys and talk about different issues uh that the church should be silent on.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: We also have some fun, some other issues as well.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you can check that out.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh our YouTube page, the Rosewell Community Church YouTube page, has something uh we call um RCC Today, where we talk about different current issues.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um you can also access that um through our website.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple different things you can check out.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Go and give that a sub, smash that bell, all that good stuff.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um brilliant.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Vermont, Pierre, you've been so generous with your time.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining me.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, man.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: Good to be here.