Latest / The Fourcast / Greenland: Will Europe use trade bazookas against Trump?

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Greenland: Will Europe use trade bazookas against Trump? · The Fourcast

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From a British and a European perspective, this has got much
0:02
more to do with the sanctity of borders and the fact that he
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shouldn't allow countries to throw their weight around.
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Because if Putin gets away with it in Ukraine and Trump gets
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away with it in Greenland, then nobody safe and we're going to
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spend our whole time living in terror that borders will get
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changed by force. The trade bazooka.
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It's like a genie out of the bottle.
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Could it spiral out of control where countries are using it in
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ways that haven't been foreseen and that that escalates tensions
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with Donald Trump rather than keeping Kim in a chequered
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ballot? Is Greenland worth this sort of
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geopolitical fight that is currently taking place?
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Hello and welcome to the forecast.
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Donald Trump wants Greenland and if his European allies won't
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sell it to him, he will hit them with increasingly harsh tariffs
0:52
until they do. It may not be a military
0:54
takeover, but it is the weaponization of trade with
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ramifications for the global economy should he follow
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through. Some European leaders want the
1:02
EU to activate it's so-called trade bazooka of retaliatory
1:06
measures. The UK Prime Minister Sakir
1:08
Starmer says a trade war benefits nobody.
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So will the fight for a bit of Arctic wilderness leave us all
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feeling the chill? Well, I'm joined now by Mark
1:16
Leonard, director of the European Council on Foreign
1:18
Relations. He's currently travelling
1:20
through the Swiss countryside on his way to the annual meeting of
1:23
global leaders in Davos. President Trump's imminent
1:26
arrival there, of course, offers the prospect of a frosty
1:29
showdown with the Europeans. And our economics correspondent,
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Helia Ebrahimi is here in the slightly less frosty but not
1:35
March studio. Welcome to you both.
1:38
Mark, let's start with you on your way to Davos.
1:41
Donald Trump turning up there on Wednesday.
1:43
How do you think that's likely to go?
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I mean, is it going to set off several avalanche warnings?
1:48
I think we're beyond that. I think the avalanche is coming
1:50
down the mountain now and people are completely electrified by
1:55
what's happening. It's, it's the biggest crisis in
1:58
transatlantic relations at least since Suez.
2:02
And the way it's unfolding is surreal.
2:05
And it's something that European leaders are in crisis mode
2:09
around. It's.
2:10
Surreal, but also pretty terrifying, isn't it?
2:12
It would be terrifying if it weren't so absurd some of the
2:16
way that it's going forward. I mean the letter which Donald?
2:20
Trump sent to the Norwegian Prime Minister where he said you
2:23
felt your government. Failed to give me.
2:25
The Peace Prize. So now I'm I'm looking beyond
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peace is. Is something which is, which is
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terrifying, but it's also so far outside of the.
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The normal ways that politics and diplomacy have done that,
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it's quite difficult. For people to process.
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Yeah, we'll just come back to that in just a second.
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But I mean, it's sort of governing by toddler tantrum,
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isn't it? It is.
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I mean, we're in continent that's in a state of war that's
2:49
worried about the future of Ukraine and dealing with the
2:51
Russian threat. And in the middle of that, which
2:55
is this land grab for for Greenland.
2:59
And then it's behaving in quite extraordinary ways by
3:04
threatening to introduce tariffs against countries that, you
3:07
know, sent as few as one troop to take part in a, in a military
3:12
exercise in Greenland, which is something that Donald Trump
3:16
himself has been calling for. He said that NATO hasn't done a
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good enough job of of protecting Greenland from Russian and.
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Chinese. Pressure and then as soon as
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they start doing that they're threatened in this way.
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So it is it's very scary, but it is also quite difficult to
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understand and it's something that I think needs to be met
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with with real force because if not it will set a horrible
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precedent. And that's something which I
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think all Europeans failed to do when the the tariff war started
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with Independence Day. And they've fared less well as a
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result of that than countries like China that that have stood
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up to this kind of bullying. Well, Helia, let me bring you in
3:58
at this point to explain what the EU trade bazooka is and what
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effect it might have. The anti coercion instrument, I
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mean, it could do basically anything.
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You could cancel banking licences, you could stop
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companies from being able to get into procurement, you could stop
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them operating. You could go after tech
4:18
companies. Basically, this bazooka, the €93
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billion bazooka that Macron and is talking about, could in one
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fell swoop get rid of JP Morgan, Facebook and Palantir, the end
4:31
of American business in Europe. But would it do that or would
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that also derail the European economy?
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Well, it would derail. The global economy, wouldn't it?
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Derail the global economy, and I think what you saw with Brexit
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is that it's very hard in operational sense to actually
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try and uproot companies when there's so much trade between.
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But this is the tool they have, and at least the threat is
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something they can go for. Well, Mark, does the threat of
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that trade bazooka, will it have the desired effect of bringing
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Trump back from the brink? I think there are two things
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which we talked about. 1 was the €93 billion worth of tariffs,
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which is something which was brought in earlier in the year
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and then was was frozen. They target bits of the American
5:23
economy which are politically sensitive.
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So things like Boeing, but also, you know, bourbon manufacturers,
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Harley-Davidson, other companies like that.
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And then the other thing is the anti coercion instrument, which
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is a measure that's never been used, that was introduced in
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2021, but which gives the European Commission the chance
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to do the sorts of things that we just heard about.
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It's a card Blanche that you you get to enact any of these policy
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choices and I think that's why it's quite potent.
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You were talking about the retaliatory tariffs that Europe
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so far hasn't really got into action over because it's
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basically absorbed whatever Donald Trump has has unleashed
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on in terms of tariffs. And that's because the European
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economies are, like Germany, so geared towards exports.
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But as you were saying, you know huge impact of this the ACI
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could do. But Mark, is it just the threat?
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Is that what's behind it? That the, the threat is, is it's
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hoped enough to bring Trump back into line?
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And that's you're not really going to have either these, you
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know, swinging retaliatory tariffs or the far greater
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bazooka because it would destroy the global economy, wouldn't it?
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Well, I think they're they're very different.
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So the tariffs are something which is very bad for consumers
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and hurts ordinary people. That's why they've chosen
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particular sectors which are less damaging to to European
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consumers. But there's just been a big
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study which showed that actually 96% of the cost of tariffs from
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Independence Day have been borne by by American consumers rather
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than the companies concerned. But Europeans don't want to get
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into a into a tariff war. It's definitely something that
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will hurt the German economy. But the anti coercion instrument
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means that you're not retaliating tit for tat.
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So you can go after bits of the American economy which are much
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more sensitive to this. And there is a huge dependence
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on American tech companies that are given a lot of sway in all
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of our countries. And you could take action
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against them, which will be much less damaging to European
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consumers. So the hope is obviously to
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deescalate, to have a deal to make this go away.
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No, Europe didn't want territorial threats made against
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its territory by its greatest ally.
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And they want to calm the situation down.
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They're willing to, to, to make these threats.
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The the danger is that they will just get rolled over.
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And I think that they've learnt a lesson from what China did
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with rare earths. And I think for for threats to
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have an impact, they have to be credible.
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Heliot, obviously the UK can diverge from the EU on all of
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this because, you know, since Brexit has the freedom to do
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that. Do you see that happening, do
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you think? Well, I think at the moment the
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UK is playing the role of the kind of the, the friendly, the
8:12
the nice officer when Macron is that being the hard, tough guy.
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I talked earlier today exclusively with our Business
8:20
Secretary Peter Kyle about what the UK would do.
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It's got a huge impact, as we've seen before on our car
8:28
manufacturing. For example, Jaguar Land Rover
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car manufacturing in the UK employs 140,000 people.
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And Jaguar Land Rover was hit massively when Donald Trump
8:41
first announced tariffs, and it's seen its profits kind of
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erode, not just because of the cyber attack but because of the
8:48
amount of cars being exported. Today, I asked the business
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secretary, you know, what are you going to do?
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You know that you've got your Prime Minister this morning
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talking about we're going to be an active government.
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We're going to intercede. We're going to make sure that
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British companies and British workers aren't hurt by, you
9:07
know, ramping up tariffs. But what are you actually going
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to do? Would you put taxpayer money on
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the line? And he said that he would look
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at everything. Everything at the moment is on
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the table Mark. Can you explain why Sir Keir
9:21
Starmer this morning in his emergency statement from Downing
9:24
Street, is still reluctant to take on Donald Trump?
9:27
Does that make any sense anymore?
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I think that Britain is obviously in a much weaker
9:31
position than the European Union and is much more likely to get
9:36
punished. So if there is a trade war
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between the EU and the US, the danger is that you face barriers
9:44
from both the the American side and from the European side and
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that it is something which they're going to try and avoid
9:52
at all costs. But I think it makes sense not
9:55
to act unilaterally because it's a lot easier to to punish the UK
10:00
and to pick Britain off than it is the European Union because,
10:03
you know, it's economy is much smaller and and there's much
10:07
less dependence on it. So it is a very, very tricky
10:10
situation to be in. There is something though to be
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said about the fact that in the UK we talked about JLR just a
10:17
moment ago and there's been lots of talk about on Astra's America
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and different pharma companies that could get hit by this.
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We've got Scotch industry, but these are companies we can
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really count on our hands. In Germany.
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You were talking about hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of
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companies all across Germany, all across the middlestad who
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are exporting cars and manufacturing and chemicals to
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America. So if there is any kind of
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change to tariffs or trade, the whole country is immediately
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exposed the moment the UK, although the US is our single
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biggest export partner, most of our exports are services which
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aren't tariffs. So we're slightly insulated.
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Mark, you reflected. Earlier on, the kind of surreal
11:07
nature of what's going on that the madness of it all.
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I mean, some are saying it's the madness of King Donald.
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And is it, is it astonishing that still the UK and the EU are
11:18
sort of holding back? Have we all let him get away
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with this for too long? I.
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Think we're in a incredibly perilous situation because of
11:27
the situation in Ukraine, and that is leading European leaders
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to want to use all the leverage that they have to make sure that
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we don't have a bad outcome on Ukraine.
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And that's why they've held back on Venezuela and on other
11:41
issues. And we're also in a position
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where it's clear that in the long term, the United States is
11:48
not a reliable partner on which Europeans could depend.
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But in the short term, they are our only partners.
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So the question is, how do you manage to avoid the worst in the
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short term whilst gradually making yourself less dependent
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in the long term? And it is a very, very tricky
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balancing act. Could you do a Mark Carney?
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You said you had the Canadian, our former governor, talking of
12:15
the Bank of England, saying on the weekend that we were in a
12:18
new world order and that China was their was their new partner.
12:23
You know this this. Was a new reality, Mark?
12:26
Would you? Would you advocate adopting a
12:28
similar approach to Mark Carney? Look, I think that Canada has
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been more directly threatened than than the UK.
12:36
Donald Trump talked about making Canada the 51st state and they
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are much more dependent on the US than than the UK is.
12:43
But I do think that Carney has shown that Donald Trump respects
12:49
strength. And, you know, he went and did a
12:50
trade deal with China. And the response of Donald Trump
12:54
was actually to, to both praise the deal and then actually to
12:57
invite Mark Carney to join the board in peace in his Gaza peace
13:02
deal. It, it shows that actually he's
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more likely to, to treat you with respect if you show that
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you're willing to stand your ground.
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Then if you're desperately scrabbling around trying to, to,
13:11
to get his approval and look weak.
13:13
And like that, I think the worst sin from Donald Trump's
13:16
perspective is weakness. So Heli is, is the reality
13:20
actually that the UK and the EU are far too reliant on the US
13:24
in, in military terms, security terms for example, to really say
13:27
that say what they think at this very perilous moment, as Marcus
13:30
described it. I mean, there is a limit to what
13:33
the UK and Europe can do. It has to look at things that
13:36
you were talking earlier on about rare earths in Greenland
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is quite interesting actually, because there were reports last
13:43
year that the Danish government had interceded on behalf of
13:47
America in order to make sure that Greenland and Greenland
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licenses for mining. We're going to American
13:55
companies, not Chinese companies.
13:57
So this whole narrative that has emerged about this is a fight to
14:01
the death to make sure that you have US supremacy instead of
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Chinese supremacy and get on America's side.
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Otherwise we're all going to be speaking Mandarin before the end
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of the century. That is undermined by the fact
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that in Greenland you have had all attempts for Europeans to do
14:21
the Americans bidding. And, Mark, is it the case that,
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you know, Greenland, obviously there are rare earths.
14:27
They're very deeply buried, very hard to extract.
14:31
Is Greenland worth this sort of geopolitical fight that is
14:34
currently taking place? But I think from a from a
14:38
British and a European perspective, this has got much
14:40
more to do with the sanctity of borders and the fact that you
14:43
shouldn't allow countries to throw their weight around.
14:46
Because if Putin gets away with it in Ukraine and Trump gets
14:51
around with it, gets away with it in Greenland, then nobody
14:54
safe and we're going to spend our whole time living in terror
14:58
that that different parts of the borders will get changed by
15:01
force. So I think there is a matter of
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principle underlining all of this.
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But I think what you said about the rare earth also is one of
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the things that that is on the side of Europeans.
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It takes quite a long time for all these things to to be
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extracted and for these things to happen.
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And there are a lot of things that Europeans can do to make it
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much more costly for for the this sort of predatory
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behaviour. And there are ways of both using
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economic measures, the threat of sanctions and things like that,
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to the threat of sanctions against companies that get
15:35
involved and, and other players to make it much more
15:38
uncomfortable for people to to get involved in these sorts of
15:42
predatory operations. And, you know, a lot of
15:45
Americans also horrified by what's going on at the moment.
15:48
So I think that we can look beyond the Trump administration
15:51
and try and both make it difficult for American
15:54
companies, American hedge funds and other players to to be
15:58
involved in this, but also to use some of the political
16:02
constraints because there's a lot of opposition even within
16:04
the Republican Party to what's going on.
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Is it the case, Mark, that Trump can basically get what he wants
16:09
in Greenland without any kind of military action or without
16:12
owning it as he describes it? You know, with a few relatively
16:16
easy tweaks, Greenland could give him quite a bit of what he
16:21
wants. He can give him everything he
16:23
wants. So unless it's owning Greenland,
16:24
I mean, there is a, a treaty in place from 1952 which gives the
16:32
legal protection for anything that that needs to be done.
16:34
And the Danish Prime Minister has told Donald Trump that short
16:38
of changing the sovereignty of of Greenland, they're willing to
16:41
to accommodate any American concerns.
16:43
And he said he wasn't interested in that because he wants to own
16:46
Greenland and that's the problem.
16:48
Because it's a lease, you, you only actually protect land that
16:52
you own. You if it's a lease, you
16:54
wouldn't protect it properly. Apparently that was his
16:57
argument. But I mean, what, what's
16:58
fascinating, Cathy, is that the narrative that's going on in the
17:03
background, Mark said that you should, we've got to use these
17:06
political tools to make it uncomfortable.
17:09
You know, that's what the bazooka does, the ACI does, is
17:12
it could make it uncomfortable for American investors, American
17:16
companies, tech companies to operate in Europe, which would
17:20
which would help them to exert pressure on their government.
17:23
But the narrative that has unfolded over recent years from
17:28
American companies themselves is that the US has been behind in
17:33
the dash for resources and that it needs to up it's game, that
17:37
it needs to go faster in making sure that it doesn't allow.
17:41
At the moment, I think China, it mines, you know, more than 2/3
17:47
of all rare earths. It processes 90% of them.
17:51
It owns all of the end stages of it.
17:55
So it's able to put in restrictions.
17:58
And why are rare earths important?
18:00
Well, because they're in magnets.
18:02
And they are the fundamental power source for the AI
18:05
revolution, for our mobile phones, for green energy.
18:10
And if you're in a situation where you don't have control,
18:14
then you need to think strategically about changing.
18:17
Mark, how seriously do you think we should take Trump and his
18:20
threats? Because in the past, you know,
18:22
you might have scoffed at the idea that he was going to
18:24
extract the leader of Venezuela and have him turn up in a New
18:27
York court. But, you know, that happened.
18:29
Do you think we need to actually take him at his word over
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Greenland? Absolutely.
18:34
I mean, he's been a very, very different sort of president than
18:38
he was the first time round. And I think the in the whole
18:43
series of different areas he's done exactly what he said he was
18:46
going to do. He is unpredictable.
18:48
He's mercurial. He behaves in in weird ways as
18:51
he to the the Norwegian Prime Minister that we discussed
18:54
earlier. But I think it would be highly
18:57
negligent to assume that when he's talking, he's not deadly
19:01
serious, and we have to be equally serious if we want to
19:04
stop these things from happening.
19:05
Well, let's go back to the letter.
19:08
Just reflect, Mark, on how extraordinary it is.
19:11
Bonkers. I mean, it really is the sort of
19:15
thing which a scriptwriter for The Thick of It or somebody like
19:19
that had come up with. Nobody.
19:20
It would never have made its way into production because it's so
19:24
bizarre. But he literally.
19:26
Says that you know that he's stopped A+ wars.
19:29
Your government, which? Is, you know, a.
19:30
Is not the Norwegian government that decides who gets the noble
19:33
peace process? But I don't.
19:34
You decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize.
19:36
I mean to look beyond peace. I mean, you can't invent these
19:40
things. I think the fact that it goes to
19:42
the wrong government is part, you know, just amps up the
19:46
surreal nature of the complaint. But I mean, yeah, tell us what
19:51
this letter has done now it's been out there.
19:53
What have people reacted? Well, I, I think, I think that's
19:57
the the problem with you were talking about.
20:00
Are we going to have a Taco response because Trump's Trump
20:04
always chickens out. And there was this feeling that
20:08
there would be a limiting factor because there would be
20:10
brinkmanship and lots of posturing.
20:13
But in the, you know, 11th hour, he would pull back from the
20:16
brink. And as you said, there have been
20:18
occasions now where that hasn't happened.
20:21
And so nobody knows. You had Scott Besson, who is.
20:25
Is one of the supposedly sensible people within that
20:30
administration on the weekend talking about how Europeans are
20:34
going to back down over Greenland, how the American
20:37
stance on Greenland is good for Greenland, it's good for the US
20:41
and it's good for Europe. And so some of those stabilizing
20:46
forces for the most extreme things are, are are not being
20:50
articulated, although that's different to what we saw with
20:53
the attack on the Federal Reserve Chairman, which is also
20:57
going on in the background. Mark, how do you think EU
21:02
leaders should react to this letter now?
21:05
You know, is it a sort of so crazy that they should not even
21:08
give it the time of day or do they have to take it head on?
21:10
I think the letters and what gets said are true social and
21:15
things like that are less important than what Europeans do
21:21
to get their act together to show that they're they're
21:23
serious. So I think they're right to call
21:25
an emergency meeting. I hope that they will agree to,
21:30
to trigger the anti coercion instrument so that they then
21:33
have the tools that they need to, to respond if things do
21:36
escalate. I think they're right to want
21:39
to, to try and put this behind us and to, to find a way of, of
21:43
raising the cost so high that it doesn't go any further.
21:48
And I think there are lots of different things that they can
21:51
do to both carry on showing their support for Denmark and
21:56
Greenland. There are economic measures that
22:00
they can take beyond the anti coercion instrument, which which
22:02
I talked about pre committing to sanctions on, on people who
22:06
profit from any occupation of Greenland.
22:09
They can use the military resources that they have to show
22:13
that they're serious about Greenland security and to build
22:15
on the the exercise that they've done so far.
22:18
And they can try and expand the coalition because, you know, the
22:20
Canadian we talked about about the Canadians, they're sort of
22:25
equally horrified by what's on there.
22:28
Lots of countries around the world that won't feel safe if
22:31
Donald Trump gets away with this kind of behaviour.
22:34
And so I think, you know, they need to hang together.
22:37
They need to show solidarity to each other.
22:38
But, but I think it's less about speaking loudly.
22:42
It's more about you trying to get a bigger stick.
22:45
Heliot Trump has achieved the extraordinary feat of uniting
22:48
the EU. Hasn't, hasn't he now?
22:52
Yes, you momentarily, you know, let's, let's see.
22:56
And I think to Mark's point that the EU really has to work
22:59
together to make sure that it's got this coherent voice, which
23:03
is why the ACI is such a good tool.
23:07
I think people who are sceptical worry that the bazooka, the
23:14
trade bazooka, once it's like a genie out of the bottle or once
23:18
it's out of the bottle, what could happen?
23:21
Could it spiral out of control where countries are using it in
23:25
ways that haven't been foreseen and that escalates tensions with
23:30
Donald Trump rather than keeping him in a check and balance?
23:34
Because it's absolutely right. How do you, how do you get to do
23:37
a Mark Carney and, you know, impress him with your power but
23:40
not anger him so much that he might send a warship?
23:44
Mark, you can see from the scenery that you're nearing
23:46
Davos. Come back to that in a second.
23:48
But just spell out, if we get the the bazooka, if we get the
23:52
retaliatory tariffs, how bad is it for the US consumer, the
23:56
European consumer and the UK consumer?
23:59
It's a lose, lose situation. So the hope is that by doing
24:03
these things, which are in no one's interests can calm things
24:06
down and do a, you know, find a kind of path back towards
24:11
sanity. And, you know, the reason that
24:14
that this label Taco was developed is that when faced
24:20
with opposition, Donald Trump often does try and do a deal.
24:23
So I think that this is the responsible thing to do.
24:26
And if you don't escalate, and if you don't show that you're
24:30
willing to meet fire with fire, then this will just be the the
24:33
beginning of a whole series of completely outrageous and
24:37
unreasonable things that come our way.
24:38
Is the best hope that Trump's own congressmen and women starts
24:42
standing up to him? Because we're seeing a bit of a
24:44
sign of that, aren't we, Mark? Yeah, I think there are limits
24:47
to how much political heroism we're going to see within the
24:50
Republican Party because a lot of people are scared that Trump
24:55
will organise primaries against them.
24:58
And so the most of the people who've been speaking out have
25:00
been people who are retiring and who don't have a long term
25:03
future in Republican politics on that side of the spectrum.
25:06
But there are going to be midterm elections.
25:08
It's quite possible that the Republicans will lose control of
25:11
the House and maybe as we move towards that, if there are
25:15
unpopular things being mooted, that might also focus the minds
25:18
of of Republican candidates. Tariffs always hurt consumers,
25:23
but it's more than just the tariffs.
25:25
You know, we talked about the fact that Germany might be more
25:29
exposed than the UK, but it would still hurt the UK because
25:34
just this instability, the uncertainty means that in a
25:38
economy that is sort of muddling along, companies stop investing.
25:43
They don't know what's happening.
25:44
It all becomes a bit risky. And they stop employing people
25:48
and they stop building a new factory and they stop opening
25:51
venues. And that stalls the economy.
25:54
And it's kind of a poison pill even when you don't get to the
25:58
hard kind of tariff and if you're going to ban JP Morgan
26:03
from banking in Europe. Mark, you've talked about your
26:07
hope of de escalation. How does the king play into all
26:10
of this? The ultimate sort of symbol of
26:12
soft power, I guess. I mean, should he still go on a
26:15
state visit to the US in the spring?
26:18
Yeah, look, I, I think it's important to keep channels open.
26:22
You know, the US is still the most powerful country in the
26:26
world and it is a long standing ally.
26:29
I think that part of what you need to do is to find a way of
26:34
maintaining the relationship but not being afraid to speak out
26:37
when things happen which are against the British interest.
26:39
Donald Trump is both willing to come on state visits but is also
26:43
willing to be very critical of British politicians like the
26:47
Mayor of London and other players.
26:48
And I think that British government needs to do the same
26:52
thing. You know, it has to keep the
26:54
relationship going, but it shouldn't be afraid of standing
26:58
up to bullying and it shouldn't be afraid of speaking out when
27:01
things are being done which go very directly against the
27:04
British national interest. But that doesn't mean, you know,
27:06
cutting off all relations and, and and isolating ourselves from
27:11
a very, very powerful country. Hello.
27:14
Well, I was just going to say, you know, the Prime Minister has
27:16
tried to now make it clear that the government would stick up
27:20
for UK consumers, UK workers, UK companies.
27:25
And the question is, well, what would that look like?
27:28
And so they have to find a way to try and bring the president
27:33
down from the brink, as Mark was saying.
27:36
Mark, final thought from you. You can see the mountains behind
27:40
you. You're clearly nearing Davos.
27:43
What kind of kind of reception is Trump going to get?
27:46
Just give us a sense of the theatrics of of all you know.
27:49
You've got Nigel Farage, you've got European leaders, you've got
27:52
Donald Trump. It's going to be quite a
27:53
display, isn't it? Yeah, no.
27:56
Well, I remember last year as he was being inaugurated and he
28:00
didn't come in person, but he was kind of zoomed in and got,
28:06
you know, very few of the people on the political side were, were
28:10
necessarily like thrilled at, at his election.
28:13
But they gave him a very warm reception and, and the companies
28:16
were very optimistic that he would bring a lot of growth and,
28:20
and energy, I suspect be a slightly more frosty reception
28:24
this year. But there will be a lot of
28:26
drama. He'll be the centre of attention
28:28
and we'll be sucking up all of the oxygen and publicity, which
28:31
is what I think he he likes. So the theatrics, you know, I
28:36
think are the most important thing.
28:38
And it will be the Donald Trump show while he's in town.
28:41
There's no question about that. Well, Mark, I'll, I'll let you
28:44
get ready for the snowball fight.
28:45
Helia Abrahami, Mark Leonard, thank you both very much for
28:47
joining me. That is it for this edition of
28:49
THE FORECAST. Until next time, goodbye.