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Juergen Hahn: Can Algorithms Do Critical Thinking? (And How AI Changes Education) · Practice Ground

• Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: All right, I think we're recording. Let me just close this. Nifemi Aluko: All right. Well good. We're good. So Jorgen, thank you for taking the time to talk to me. you know, our journey, will I say, started together in two thousand and seven, actually, when I came came to Texas A ⁓ I was you know, sometimes when I look back, I was like, I was so young and I came I came to your life. Yeah Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Alright, we're good. We're good. So Jorgen, thank you for taking the time to talk to me. you know, our journey, will I say, started together in two thousand and seven, actually, when I came came to Texas AM. I was you know, sometimes when I look back, I was like, I was so young and I came I came to your lap. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Hey here. Nifemi Aluko: And I came to your lab then. you know, it was a very interesting story. I don't know if you know the story. So when I applied to Texas AM, ⁓ I came from Chicago, right? So then in undergrad, I was doing a lot of like research around renewable energy and all that kind of stuff, right? And I remember coming at I you know, I left Chicago thinking, you know, let me just apply to sch schools that were good in chemical engineering. That was the main thing. So I remember I applied. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: And I came to your lab then. you know, it was a very interesting story. I don't know if you know the story. So when I applied to Texas AM, ⁓ I came from Chicago, right? So then in undergrad, I was doing a lot of like research around renewable energy and all that kind of stuff, right? And I remember coming at and you know, I left Chicago thinking, you know, let me just apply to sch schools that were good in chemical engineering. That was the main thing. So I remember I applied. Nifemi Aluko: And then I came to the department, ⁓ which was January twenty two thousand and seven. And ⁓ I think I was asking, I was like, So where's the renewable energy in ⁓ kind of like division? Who is working on renewable energy? And I remember the lady at the place who was like, I don't think you look at the brochure, we don't really have renewable energy. ⁓ but she was like, Go talk to I think it was Professor L Hawagi then. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: And then I came to the department, ⁓ which was January twenty two thousand and seven. And ⁓ I think I was asking, I was like, So where's the renewable energy in ⁓ kind of like division? Who is working on renewable energy? And I remember the lady at the place who was like, I don't think you look at the brochure, we don't really have renewable energy. ⁓ but she was like, Go talk to I think it was Professor L Hawagi then. Nifemi Aluko: And it was like, okay, he does process safety optimization. I spoke to him and then he directed me to you. And then I we had this conversation. You're like, hey, you know, think about it. This you're optimizing processes, you're making it more efficient. ⁓ it's not necessarily, you know, renewable, but ⁓ you're you could look at it as a way to optimize. And this that's literally how I got on this path through the work that you've done. And then I ended up Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: And it was like, okay, he does process safety optimization. I spoke to him and then he directed me to you. And then I we had this conversation. You're like, hey, you know, think about it. This you're optimizing processes, you're making it more efficient. ⁓ it's not necessarily, you know, renewable, but ⁓ you're you could look at it as a way to optimize. And this that's literally how I got on this path through the work that you've done. And then I ended up Nifemi Aluko: From there going to rock well automation, learning about model predictive control, and just literally getting into this world where now we're at a phase where it seems like there's all everybody's talking about generative AI and all that kind of stuff. So thank you for taking the time. You know, this the reason I reached out is I'm writing my fifth book, and it's around how to find meaning as Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: From there going to rock well automation, learning about model predictive control, and just literally getting into this world where now we're at a phase where it it seems like there's all everybody's talking about, generative AI and all that kind of stuff. So thank you for taking the time. You know, this the reason I reached out is I'm writing my fifth book and it's around how to find meaning as Nifemi Aluko: Things get more automated ⁓ as we go into the automation age. And there's a lot of uncertainty out there for a lot of people that feel like, ⁓ well, what does life look like when you know we have so much automation? So I'm trying to talk to as many experts that have been in the field for such a long time to, you know, in my opinion, try to tell people to relax if they can. And ⁓ you know, for you, your journey, you've Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Things get more automated ⁓ as we go into the automation age. And there's a lot of uncertainty out there for a lot of people that feel like, ⁓ well what does life look like when you know we have so much automation? So I'm trying to talk to as many experts that have been in the field for such a long time to, you know, in my opinion, try to tell people to relax if they can. And ⁓ you know, for you, your journey, you've Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ mentored and been a professor to more than 40 students, released about I think 128 publications at least that I see online. you're you moved to RPI in 2012, I believe. Right. And ⁓ from Texas CNM became the head of the biomedical engineering department in tw to 2013. And I see you're the longest serving head so far. ⁓ 12 years. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: ⁓ mentored and been a professor to more than 40 students released about i think 128 publications at least that i see online here you moved to rpi in 2012 i believe and ⁓ from texas and ⁓ became the head of the biomedical engineering department in tw to 2013 and i see you're the longest serving head so far ⁓ 12 years Nifemi Aluko: And now you're the director for Center for Biotechnical and Interdisciplinary Studies. So, you know, I think one question I have is, you know, when for you, you have gone through this and you do a lot of research around developing techniques for ⁓ system analysis and then using those techniques either for biological systems or chemical systems. You know, when you're de debugging a chem ⁓ a Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: And now you're the director for Center for Biotechnical and Interdisciplinary Studies. So, you know, I think one question I have is, you know, when for you, you have gone through this and you do a lot of research around developing techniques for ⁓ system analysis and then using those techniques either for biological systems or chemical systems. You know, when you're de debugging a chem ⁓ a Nifemi Aluko: complex system, what does your kind of into intuition tell you that you don't necessarily see within the data itself? Like what how do you bring your, you know, intuitive knowledge to the process? Yeah. I mean, look, intuition is a really important part. Okay. like oftentimes there are things they are in the data, but they're not so ⁓ they're not so obvious that they ⁓ Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: complex system, what does your kind of into intuition tell you that you don't necessarily see within the data itself? Like w how do you bring your, you know, intuitive knowledge to the process? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. I mean look, intuition is a really important part. Okay. like oftentimes there are things they are in the data, but they're not so ⁓ they're not so obvious that they ⁓ jump out at you. And this is then where your intuition comes and you're saying, Well, you know what? This part here in your data just could mean many, many different things, right? It could be Nifemi Aluko: Jump out at you. That's then where your intuition comes and you're saying, Well, you know what? This part here in your data just could mean many, many different things, right? It could be one interpretation which makes a lot of sense, but it could also be like, ⁓ my god, we don't really understand what's happening here, and we need to dig deeper into this. In particular, when you work, when you're supervising students, yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: One interpretation which makes a lot of sense, but it could also be like, ⁓ my God, we don't really understand what's happening here, and we need to dig deeper into this. In particular, when you work, when you're supervising students, yeah, ⁓ they come to you and they have some data and they have an interpretation of the data, and then it's your job as a professor to go back and say, Well, that's one interpretation, but let's make sure it's the real one, because we don't know yet. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: They come to you and they have some data and they have an interpretation of the data. And then it's your job as a professor to go back and say, Well, that's one interpretation, but let's make sure it's the real one, because we don't know yet. All right. And and so then you have to kind of I mean, intuition has a lot to do with your past experiences, right? That's ⁓ and and also looking at the bigger picture. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Right. And and so then you have to kind of I mean intuition has a lot to do with your past experiences, right? That's ⁓ and ⁓ and also looking at the bigger picture, okay, because like if I use an algorithm to find something, yeah, the algorithm can find trends that I may not be seeing, but the algorithm doesn't really usually know anything about like the physics or the biology of a product or or I mean or a business model if you're basically. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Okay, because I if I use an algorithm to find something, yeah, the algorithm can find trends that I may not be seeing, but the algorithm doesn't really usually know anything about like the physics or the biology of a particular or I mean or a business model of Europe. Business models, which we don't do in my group, yeah. But ⁓ but this is basically the algorithm doesn't know about that. Yeah, and so your experience then comes in and says, Well, you know, yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay. ⁓ Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Look at business models, which we don't do in my group, yeah. But ⁓ but this is basically the algorithm doesn't know about that. Yeah, and so your experience then comes in and says, Well, you know, yeah, that data could mean many, many different things. And why don't we say let's let's narrow this down, okay? Like let's change some of your conditions, let's recollect some of the data. Because if I think that your hypothesis is that what you're seeing is because of X. Nifemi Aluko: That data could mean many, many different things. And why don't we say let's let's narrow this down? Okay. Like let's change some of your conditions. Let's recollect some of the data. Because if I think that your hypothesis is that what you're seeing is because of X, then if you make this change, this and this should happen. And it's probably not because of X, there's probably something else going on, which means we need to dig deep. Yeah. That's always Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Then if you make this change, this and this should happen. And if it doesn't, then it's probably not because of X. There's probably something else going on, which means we need to dig deep. Okay. So that's always ⁓ honestly, there's no data sets ever complete where you say, ⁓ yeah, I have everything I need. ⁓ that doesn't happen. and ⁓ so you always have to be ⁓ you have to start with a reasonable collection of data to see where do you think this journey of analyzing the data is gonna go. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ honestly, there's no data sets ever complete where you say, ⁓ yeah, I have everything I need. ⁓ and ⁓ so you always have to be ⁓ you have to start with a reasonable collection of data to see where do you think this journey of analyzing the data is gonna go. But then you really also have to rely on your intuition saying, Well, let's modify it's change our experiments or our simulations a little bit, see what happens as a result of that. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Exactly. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: But then you really also have to rely on your intuition saying, well, let's modify it's change our experiments or our simulations a little bit. See what happens as a result of that. And and then basically see if that ⁓ the well certain assumptions that you made will hold up. Yeah. And that's a really critical part. And I would argue now, admittedly I I come from this very much from ⁓ the academic side, right? Where students Nifemi Aluko: And and then basically see if that ⁓ the well certain assumptions that you made will hold up. Yeah, exactly. And that's a really critical part. And I would argue now, admittedly, I I come from this very much from ⁓ the academic side, right? Where educating students is important, but that's a really part important part of the learning experience that ⁓ as as a student you go through. This is saying, okay, well. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, exactly. And Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: educating students is important. But that's a really par important part of the learning experience that ⁓ as as a student you go through this and saying, Okay, well, I thought it is this, but you're right. There may be other reasons. Let's more critically think about this, because that's that's a skill set that it's you can't exactly teach. You can just prod some and push people in that direction, but there's but developing that skill set, there's not like a Nifemi Aluko: I thought it is this, but you're right. There may be other reasons. Let's more critically think about this because that's that's a skill set that it's you can't exactly teach. You can just prod some and but push people in that direction, but there's but developing that skill set, there's not like a there's not like a clear guidebook on how to do it. Yeah. And Yeah, you know, I wanted to ask you about that. You know, what I'm hearing a lot is like Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Got it. Okay. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: There's not like a clear guidebook on how do you do it. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. And yeah, you know, I wanted to ask you about that. You know, what I'm hearing a lot is like critical thinking and training people about this experience. And you know, when I was at Rockwell, one thing that I learned was, you know, we'll go to these factories and we'll do like all these ⁓ regression models and we'll, you know, install it to to work on their, you know, distillation column and all that kind of stuff, right? And Nifemi Aluko: Critical thinking and training people about this experience. And, you know, when I was at Rockwell, one thing that I learned was, you know, we'll go to these factories and we'll do like all these ⁓ regression models and we'll, you know, install it to to work on their, you know, distillation column and all that kind of stuff, right? And and you know, we'll be looking at the graphs and everything is going well, and then we'll see like a spike in some. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: And you know, we'll be looking at the graphs and everything is going well. And then we'll see like a spike in something, the temperature or something, right? And I'm using a random example here. And we'll be sitting behind the computer trying to figure out like what is happening, what is going on. And then the operator that has just been working there for 10 years or something will just walk in and say, ⁓ you know, it's spring and you know the birds kind of fly across and they usually land on this. Nifemi Aluko: thing, the temperature or something, right? And I'm using a random example here. And we'll be sitting behind the computer trying to figure out like what is happening, what is going on. And then the operator that has just been working there for 10 years or something will just walk in and say, ⁓ you know, it's spring and you know the birds kind of fly across and they usually land on this thing that affects this sensor and then they go out there and then they fix it. And that's something we didn't Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: thing that affects this sensor and then they go out there and then they fix it. And that's something we didn't put in our model. We never put a model that would describe, you know, when it's dock season and the ducks are flying. You know. Nifemi Aluko: put in our model. We never put a model that would describe, you know, when it's duck season and the ducks are flying. Of course not. Maybe though there's a saying that ⁓ that all models are wrong, but some models are useful. Yeah. There's there's there's certain factors that you can never ever put in your model. And so that that will I mean that's not gonna go away. Okay. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. not. I mean you know there's a saying that ⁓ that all models are wrong but some models are useful. Okay. And there's exactly there's there's there's certain factors that you can never ever put in your model. And so you just that that will I mean that's not gonna go away. Okay. That have this discussion in 50 years if you're still alive we're still gonna find that we're that will our models will never be perfect and there you just have to Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: In 50 years, if you're still alive, we're still gonna find that we're that will our models will never be perfect. And you just have to say at some point this is good enough. And and you're right, and don't discount the experience. Okay, there is somebody who has experience decades of experience with the process, they have knowledge that you can never capture in a model, part because that data doesn't exist in a form you could. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah. No. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: say at some point this is good enough and and you're right and don't discount the experience. Okay. There is somebody who has experience decades of experience with the process. They have knowledge that you can never capture in a model, big part because that data doesn't exist in a form you Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you think it's possible to for us to ever get to a place where that systematic approach to critical thinking and questioning can actually be captured in some form of algorithm that the algorithm itself is doing the critical thinking for another algorithm? Is that even can we ever get to that place? Nifemi Aluko: Do you do you think it's possible to for us to ever get to a place where that systematic approach to critical thinking and questioning can actually be captured in some form of algorithm that the algorithm itself is doing the critical thinking for another algorithm? Is that even can we ever get to that place? I I honestly I'm not so first of all, I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer that. Yeah. I mean the the speed at which AI develops is sometimes almost scary. Okay. So it's hard to ⁓ make any predictions on yeah on like, ⁓ we'll never get here and there. But I do think that this is a lot harder than people think. Okay, because what I mean, look. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: I I honestly I'm not so first of all I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer that. Yeah. I mean the the speed at which AI develops is sometimes almost scary. Okay. So it's hard to ⁓ make any predictions on y on like, ⁓ we'll never get here and there. But I do think that this is a lot harder than people think. Okay, because what I mean, look. Nifemi Aluko: What what gets kind of masked oftentimes is that these ⁓ I mean the AI models are really oftentimes similar in structures to AI models we had 30 years ago. Yeah. They're just much, much bigger. Yep. And and then and then basically and they were trained with much more data, and that's just where a lot of this comes from. But in the end, there's certain things that all of these models s kind of suffer from. Okay. And one item is that. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: What what gets kind of masked oftentimes is that these ⁓ I mean the AI models are really oftentimes similar in structures to AI models we had 30 years ago. They're just much, much bigger. And and then and then basically and they were trained with much more data, and this is where a lot of this comes from. But in the end, there's certain things that all of these models s kind of suffer from. Okay. And one item is that. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ they're basically interpolating existing data. That's not what critical thinking is. Okay. This is in turn. I mean, they have so massive amounts of data that yes, they may be interpolating data from different fields, and that may actually add new value. But that's different from having a completely ⁓ a new idea, something that's out of the box and testing that. Yeah. And so ⁓ I don't know. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: ⁓ they're basically interpolating existing data. That's not what critical thinking is. Okay. This is inter I mean, they have so massive amounts of data that yes, they may be interpolating data from different fields, and it and that may actually add new value. But ⁓ but that's different from having a completely ⁓ a new idea, something that's out of the box and testing that. And so ⁓ I don't know. I mean I'm not Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I mean we may not get there eventually, but I think just making the AI a little bigger than it is is not gonna get us. It's like yeah. You can some other things in there. ⁓ I mean, likewise to give a different example, like these models are even though they have massive amount of data, but since they're in interpolating, yeah, they end up you end up with interpolation of results. This is where some of Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: We may not get there eventually, but I think just making the AI a little bigger than it is is not gonna get us there. You're gonna need some other things in there. Yeah. I mean, likewise to give a different example, like these models are even though they have massive amount of data, but since they're interpolating, yeah, they end up you end up with interpolation of results. This is where some of Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: There's no yeah and we Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: hallucinations come from because it interpolates one piece of data that's correct and another piece of data and squishes them together and saying, Yeah, that makes a good interpolation. But if my goal is to find a reference, I don't want to find the authors of one paper and the title from another paper because yeah. Yeah. And and so this is that requires then a different process where you maybe pull some information from a data ⁓ bank. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: hallucinations come from because it interpolates one piece of data that's correct and another piece of data and squishes them together and saying, Yeah, that makes a good interpolation. But if my goal is to find a reference, I don't want to find the authors of one paper and the title from another paper because it's a good interpolation. Yeah. And and so this is that requires then a different process where you maybe pull some information from a data ⁓ bank Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: For that part rather than just interpolating between existing data. Yeah. When it comes to critical problem solving, I think you may need a totally different piece on how to go about this. Mm-hmm. How what how do you like or what advice do you give your students in terms of, you know, critical thinking? You know, I remember ⁓ working together and you know, I back in in those times we're using, I don't know if you're still using this, but I was using like MATLAB and Aspen to do like Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: for that part rather than just interpolating between existing data. Yeah. When it comes to critical problem solving, I think you may need a totally different piece on how to go about this. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. How what how do you like or what advice do you give your students in terms of you know critical thinking? You know, I remember ⁓ working together and you know, I back in in those times we're using, I don't know if you're still using this, but I was using like MATLAB and Aspen to do like, you know, some small ⁓ two by two relative grit gain analysis of a controller and Nifemi Aluko: You know, some small ⁓ two by two relative grit gain analysis of a controller and you know, I'll bring my results to you and then you'll be like, ⁓ Nephami, have you thought about this or have you thought about this? How how do you train students to think critic critically? Yeah, it's my I am honestly that process hasn't changed so much. I mean, the proceeds obviously some of the tools have changed. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: You know, I'll bring my results to you and then you'd be like, ⁓ Nephami, have you thought about this or have you thought about this? How how do you train students to think critic critically? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's by I am honestly that process hasn't changed so much. I mean the proceeds, obviously some of the tools have changed. I mean we still use MATLAB, but then there's a lot of Python. Yeah, particularly anything that's data driven. Python is just the tool of choice. Yeah. Plus, Python is free and there's a lot of people ⁓ use it quite extensively. But but when it comes to really like looking at your data and trying to figure out what's going on. Nifemi Aluko: Still use MATLAB, but then there's a lot of Python. Yeah, particularly anything that's data driven. Python is just a tool of choice. Yeah. Plus, Python is free, and so a lot of people ⁓ use it quite extensively. But but when it comes to really like looking at your data and trying to figure out what's going on, we still go through these brainstorming sessions, okay? Where like saying you give me your data and you tell me what you think happened, and I'm gonna ask ⁓ some questions when well. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep, they don't. Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: We still go through these brainstorming sessions, okay, where like saying you give me your data and you tell me what you think happened and I'm gonna ask ⁓ some questions on well, what would you think if this and this happened instead? Would that would that also be possible with your data? What other explanations can you have? And the last thing that's really important are items like talk to if you have access to them, talk to the experts in the field who've generated the data. Less like the issue with your bird migration that you've Nifemi Aluko: What would you think if this and this happened instead? Would that would that also be possible with your data? What other explanations can you have? And the last thing that's really important are items like talk to, if you have access to them, talk to the experts in the field who've generated the data. Like the issue with your bird migration that this is the issue that you and I discussing this in our lab would never even have thought about. This is this would have never been on my radar. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: This is an issue that you and I discussing this in our lab would never even have thought about. Okay. This is this would have never been on my radar. Yeah, but ⁓ but suddenly you talk to somebody who collects the data and they tell you, ⁓ yeah, there's there's other things that have happened here. Yeah. And ⁓ and I have had c look, I've had cases. let's give you one example, yeah, from more the from a recent work. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, but ⁓ but suddenly you talk to somebody who collects the data and they tell you, ⁓ yeah, there's there's other things that have happened. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I have had c look, I've had cases, let's give you one example, yeah, from more the from more recent work. But we've had cases where we analyzed ⁓ we analyzed data. Now this was now for for a potential autism diagnosis using ⁓ using data science. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: But we've had cases where we analyzed ⁓ we analyzed data. Now this was now for for a potential autism diagnosis using ⁓ using data science, and we found that there's a trend, one piece of the data looked different than the rest. Yeah. And then when we basically talked to the experts, they told us, ⁓ yeah, that was because it was analyzed on a different day, and I guess somebody else came in and took that measurement. Nifemi Aluko: And we found that there's a trend, one piece of the data looked different than the rest. Yeah. And then when we basically talked to the experts, they told us, ⁓ yeah, that was because it was analyzed on a different day. And I guess somebody else came in and took that measurement. So now our algorithm had picked up on who took the measurement, which is obviously not exactly what you wanted, right? Yeah, yeah. To find something where there's ⁓ the differences in the biology, not on who took the measurements. And and that we would have never known that. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: So now our algorithm had picked up on who took the measurement, which is obviously not exactly what you wanted, right? The goal is to find something where there's ⁓ the differences in the biology, not on who took the measurements. Yeah. And and and that we would have never known that unless we really talked to ⁓ somebody who was involved in yeah, actually creating the data in the first place. Yeah. That that's something I think that's never gonna go away, okay? Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep, yep, yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: unless we really talk to ⁓ somebody who was involved and yeah actually creating the data in the first place. Yeah, yeah. That that's something I think that's never gonna go away. Okay. Domain knowledge. And you need to critically question what you're getting because nobody wants garbage in, garbage out. Yeah. Right. We wanna have make the most meaningful conclusions that we can with the data that we have. Yeah. So Yan, you know, one thing is Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: In the process. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: domain knowledge and you need to critically question what you're getting because nobody wants garbage in, garbage out, right? That's ⁓ we wanna have make the most meaningful conclusions that we can with the data that we have. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're you know, one thing is I see a lot of you know, the scientific approach I've learned from you, ⁓ grad students, my my siblings also have a PhDs and we're constantly in the house, there's asking questions, challenging where did you get that data from? You know, all that kind of stuff. So there's a big part of like I know this process, there's a curiosity and some form of skepticism, right? When you hear something, you're like, huh, you know, there's always a asking. Nifemi Aluko: I see a lot of you know the scientific approach I've learned from you, ⁓ grad students. My my siblings also have PhDs and we're all constantly in the house, there's asking questions, challenging where did you get that data from? You know, all that kind of stuff. So there's a big part of like, I know this process, there's a curiosity and some form of skepticism, right? When you hear something, you're like, huh? You know, there's always ⁓ asking. For you, when do you? Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Ma for you, when do you ⁓ or what role does kind of get lost in the playful aspect of like asking questions and brainstorming and when do you switch to the mode of okay, we're done with the questions. We just need to keep moving forward and finding the data. Do you how do you kind of bat balance the two? Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ or what role does kind of get lost in the playful aspect of like asking questions and brainstorming? And when do you switch to the mode of okay, we're done with the questions? We just need to keep moving forward and finding the data. Do you how do you kind of bat balance the two? That's a great question. Okay. look, let me ⁓ let me start off. There isn't I mean there isn't a clear cut. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: That's a great question. Okay. ⁓ look, let me ⁓ let me start off. There isn't I mean there isn't a clear cut answer, right? It depends upon the project that you work on. It also ⁓ I would argue that for supervising students it depends a bit on the student. Yeah, because we have some people who love to brainstorm forever. And ⁓ and that that's a good trade, but you just have to know when to stop, right? And ⁓ so basically what you I mean ever Nifemi Aluko: Answer, right? It depends upon the project that you work on. It also ⁓ I would argue that for supervising students, it depends a bit on the student. Yeah, because we have some people who love to brainstorm forever. And ⁓ and that that's a good trade, but you just have to know when to stop, right? And ⁓ so basically, what you I mean, ever every data analysis you look at has to involve some brainstorming, okay. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Every data analysis you look at has to involve some brainstorming. Okay. And ⁓ but you have to ask what are what alternatives that are are there for this. You have to maybe run some collect some additional data to check some of these. I do think it's important to talk to other people about it, which is always why I told my students in my lab, talk to each other, okay? Because I'm coming at things from a certain angle. Nifemi Aluko: And ⁓ but you have to ask what are what alternatives that are are there for this. You have to maybe run some collect some additional data to check some of these. I do think it's important to talk to other people about it, which is always why I told my students in my lab talk to each other. Okay. Coming at things from a certain angle. And it's also important you have people who come at this from another angle and to think about it. Okay. ⁓ so ⁓ when you Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And it's also important you have people who come at this from another angle and to think about it. Okay. ⁓ so ⁓ when you get some feedback there and you get to a point where you're saying, look, I think I think with we've gotten to a point where we're reasonably sure that what we're having here is probably yeah, is probably ⁓ probably explains what we're seeing. And then it's time to move forward. Okay, because if you question everything forever, you never Nifemi Aluko: Get some feedback there. And you get to a point where you're saying, look, I think I think with we've gotten to a point, but we're reasonably sure that what we're having here is probably yeah, is probably ⁓ probably explains what we're seeing. And then it's time to move forward. Okay. Because if you question everything forever, you never write up your results and ultimately people want you to get some ⁓ go get some results. But you have to ⁓ you have to have a good mix on Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Write up your results and ultimately people want you to get some ⁓ go get some results. But you have to ⁓ you have to have a good mix on in the process. And part of it is some processes are simpler, like for example, when it as a when it comes to chemical plant data, I mean we built the chemical plant. Now, are there factors in there that we never considered? Yes. But the but it's a limited number. Yeah. But when it comes to like ⁓ anything related to human health. Nifemi Aluko: In the process and part of it is some processes are simpler, like for example, when it is a when it comes to chemical plant data, we built the chemical plant. Now, are there factors in there that we never considered? Yes. Yeah. But it's a limited number. Yeah. But when it comes to like ⁓ anything related to human health, well, I mean, we evolved in a certain way because of what Mother Nature thought is important. There's lots of things we don't understand. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Well, I mean, we evolved in a certain way because of what Mother Nature thought is important. And there's lots of things we don't understand, yeah. And then on top of that you have everybody's lifestyle that's totally different that affects health. And so there's a lot more questions that you need to ask there. Yeah. So it depends a bit on what are what are you dealing with. Yeah. because like the the less you know, the more brainstorming you need. Yeah. Which oftentimes also then means that Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. And then on top of that, you have everybody's lifestyle that's totally different. That affects you. And so there's a lot more questions that you need to ask there. Yeah. So it depends a bit on what are what are you dealing with. Yeah. Yeah. because like the the less you know, the more brainstorming you need. You need, yeah. Which oftentimes also then means that maybe the models that you're trying to use should be simpler because if my understanding is this limited. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need, yeah. Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Maybe the models that you're trying to use should be simpler because if my understanding is this limited and my uncertainties are yet huge, then ⁓ I shouldn't pretend to have understanding just because I can fit the data, right? I mean you end up with overfitting, right? And the next time you apply the data in a new setting, it won't work. And then people question what did you do in general? Yeah. ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: And my uncertainties are yet huge, then ⁓ I shouldn't pretend to have understanding just because I can fit the data, right? Do that you end up with overfitting, right? And the next time you apply the data in a new setting, it won't work. And then people question what did you do in general? Yeah, yeah. ⁓ one other thing I wanted to briefly, and that this may be a bit of a sidetrack, but I want to briefly bring this up. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: One other thing I wanted to briefly, and that this may be a bit of a sidetrack, but I wanted to briefly bring this up. So, like for example, when I'm looking for new students for my research group, yeah, this idea are people curious about what ⁓ like the scientific process, yeah, are they willing to do they really enjoy manipulating the data, digging into this thought process? That's actually one of the most important factors I look for. Yeah, like I actually I don't care what Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: So, like for example, when I'm looking for new students for my research group, yeah, this idea are people curious about what ⁓ like the scientific process, yeah, they're willing to do they really enjoy manipulating the data, digging into this thought process. That's actually one of the most important factors I look for. Yeah, like I actually I don't care what what skill sets people bring in. Like some people know how to program and that's good, but Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: what skill sets people bring in. Like some people know how to program and that's good, but if they don't, that's fine too. But this intellectual curiosity, yeah, of how to analyze your problem. How do you go about making arguments? That is a skill set that to me is much more important than than basically having skills in a particular language or having taken a particular class here and there, because you always learn a language. Yeah. But that's some people Nifemi Aluko: If they don't, that's fine too. But this intellectual curiosity, yeah, of how you analyze your problem. How do you go about making arguments? That is a skill set that to me is much more important than than basically having skills in a particular language or having taken a particular class, you know. Always learn a language. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people are much more interested in it than others, and that's really one of the key Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: are much more interested in it than others and that's for me really one of the key factors where I say, ⁓ yeah, that person's really gonna work out well. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: A two? Nifemi Aluko: factors where I say, ⁓ yeah, that person's really gonna work out well for me. Yep. Yep. And and do you think it's ⁓ it's something that is natural, can be trained because I think for me growing growing up I was curious, right? But when I got into like school, I got into a phase of just, man, I just need to like finish. I just need to pass this test. I just need to graduate. And I remember even, you know, when I was working with you, Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep. Yep. And and do you think it's ⁓ it's something that is natural, can be trained? Because I think for me growing growing up, I'm I was curious, right? But when I got into like school, I got into a phase of just, man, I just need to like finish. I just need to pass this test. I just need to graduate. And I remember even, you know, when I was working with you, and I'm like, okay, I think I've gone somewhere and Nifemi Aluko: And I'm like, okay, I think I've gone somewhere. And and you're like, ⁓ never mind, this is nice. Okay, go back and you know, find out this. I'm like, ⁓ man, another question, right? And but over time, I learned this process of, ⁓ the curiosity and the question is actually the interesting part. But it took a while for me to get there. Even when I got to Rockwell, like being around a lot of engineers, there was always this intrigue of Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: And you're like, ⁓ never this is nice. Okay, go back and you know, find out this. I'm like, ⁓ man, another question, right? And but over time I learned this process of, ⁓ the curiosity and the question is actually the interesting part. But it took a while for me to get there. Even when I got to Rockwell, like being around a lot of these engineers, there was always this intrigue of ⁓ it's not working, let's figure out why it's not working. But Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ it's not working. Let's figure out why it's not working. But when I was younger, I was more on the side like, can we get to the answer quick? Right. And but I've learned more of nurturing this curious side. Do you think there's a people are naturally curious or it's something that can actually be nurtured? Well, I I mean, first of all, I think everybody's naturally curious. I mean, some people more than others, but I think a lot of it also comes down to ⁓ is that. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: When I was younger, I was more on the side like, can we get to the answer quick? Right? And but I've learned more of nurturing this curious side. Do you think there's a people are naturally curious or it's something that can actually be nurtured? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Well, I f I mean, first of all, I think everybody's naturally curious. I mean, some people more than others, but I think a lot of it also comes down to ⁓ is that, yeah, I mean, what's been the path in your life, right? Have you been like ⁓ have you been challenged to ask these types of questions or have you just accepted that here's an answer, don't challenge it, right? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I mean, what's been the path in your life, right? Have you been like ⁓ have you been challenged to ask these types of questions, or have you just accepted that here's an answer, don't challenge it, right? ⁓ and I under what you're describing is exactly oftentimes in the school setting, right? That this is where we have to be careful as educators. I mean, we want people to learn things, but we shouldn't Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And I under what you're describing is exactly oftentimes in the school setting, right? And this is where we have to be careful as educators. I mean, we want people to learn things, but we shouldn't yeah, we shouldn't basically drive the curiosity out of them. Because sometimes it's exactly this. You have a huge amount of workload and you just want to finish this homework, finish this test, and you get an A on this test to be done with it. But but what we really want is that you that you focus on Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, we shouldn't basic drive the curiosity out of them because sometimes it's exactly this. You have a huge amount of workload and you just want to finish this whole work and you get an A on this test and be done with it. But but what we really want is that you ⁓ that you focus on let's learn this material because you're interested in it. And let's learn how to ask the right questions. Yeah. And so we and that's Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: It just Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Let's learn this material because you're interested in it. Okay. And let's learn how to ask the right questions. Yeah. And that's what I very like about working with graduate students, because in graduate stud school, it's like, look, you you got your undergrad degree, you got a GPA, nobody really cares that much what your GPA is in grad school, but let's become what I may call like professional problem solvers. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: What I very like about working with graduate students, because in graduate stud school, it's like, look, you you got your undergrad degree, you got a GPA, nobody really cares that much what your GPA is in grad school, but let's come what I may call like professional problem solvers. Yep. Okay. Which is that's really more what the graduate school is about. And then ultimately your research project kind of just both does the training, but also, yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Hm? Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay, which is that's really more what the graduate school is about. And then ultimately your research project kind of just both does the training but also, yeah, because you're working on an open ended problem where it's not clear what the answers, but also it does ⁓ it serves as the validation when you basically you completed a project and now you've written this up and be it your thesis or be it the paper. Nifemi Aluko: Because you're working on an open ended problem where it's not clear what the answers, but also it does ⁓ it serves as the validation when you basically you completed a project and now you've written this up and be it your thesis or be it the paper, but you're presenting this to others and saying, Look, I have gone through this thought process and this is how it ended up. And so clearly I have this skill set to solve these open ended problems. Yeah. I do think it can be, I mean, it can certainly be learned. I mean, if it couldn't be learned, then Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: But you're presenting this to others and saying, look, I have gone through this thought process and this is how it ended up. And so clearly I have this skill set to solve these open-ended problems. So I do think it can be, I mean, it can certainly be learned. I mean, if it couldn't be learned, then I'm not sure what I would be doing with graduate students. And ⁓ but I but I mean you you find obviously people some people have thought about this. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I'm not sure what I would be doing with that. But I but I mean you you find obviously people some people have thought about this a lot more throughout their life and others have been more about like, well, let's deal with the more immediate problems. Yeah. Yeah. I think everybody has a certain curiosity. There's a a lot. I mean there's a there's a lot you can do with the right training. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: a lot more throughout their life and others have been more about like, well, let's deal with the more immediate problems first. But I think everybody has a certain curiosity. But there's a a lot I mean there's a there's a lot you can do with the right training. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Curiosity. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And ⁓ when do you when did you get, you know, with your curiosity, when did you get a sense of, you know, this is what I want to work on, right? I remember, you know, those times in the lab, I was working on, you know, a small distillation column, which, you know, was like a very chemical process. Jackie, you know, to to my left, right? Jackie was to my left. He was he was just doing Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ when do you when did you get you know with your curiosity, when did you get a sense of you know this is what I want to work on, right? I remember, you know, those times in the lab, I was working on, you know, a small distillation column, which you know was like a very chemical process. Jackie to my left, right? Jackie was to my left. He was he was just doing systems biology, and I used to think like, man. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Systems biology and I used to think like man, what Jackie and Jogin are doing is so complex, right? That that was how it was in my head. I was just like, you guys, all you guys are working on is so complex. And obviously you have you know f followed your journey and you have gone more towards the systems biology. When did you have a sense of is it all the same for you or did you say okay, I need to mo I want to go more towards Nifemi Aluko: What Jackie and Jogrin are doing is so complex, right? That that was how I was in my head. I was just like, you guys, all you guys are working on is so complex. And obviously you have, you know, f followed your journey and you have gone more towards the systems, biology. When did you have a sense of is it all the same for you? Or did you say, okay, I need to ⁓ I want to go more towards, you know, biomedical stuff? Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: you know, biomedical stuff because it's more complex or where where did you how did that happen? Nifemi Aluko: Because it's more complex, or where where did you how did that happen? Yeah, it's ⁓ so I mean there there's said there are several things that happen and they didn't all happen at once. And to be honest, some of it is also called pure luck. Okay, it's not like you sit out and say, ⁓ over the next 20 years, this is what we're gonna do, and this is how my career has ⁓ goes. You have to sometimes go with the flow a bit. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, it's ⁓ so I mean there there's s there are several things that happened and it didn't all happen at once. And to be honest, some of it is also called pure luck. Okay. It's not like you set out and say, ⁓ over the next twenty years, this is what we're gonna do and this is how my career has sh ⁓ goes. You have to sometimes go with the flow a bit. Okay, and ⁓ and and you're gonna revise your decision because what your decision of what you thought is important now. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Okay. And ⁓ and and you're gonna revise your decision because what your decision of what you thought is important now may be different from what you thought it was five years ago. That doesn't make it wrong what you did, it's just that at the time that's what it seemed like. But sometimes the times, the environments change things like that. ⁓ so going back more specifically to the question that's a I mean, so first of all, the the what I really like about the systems approach and the systems thinking that Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: maybe different from what you thought it was five years ago. That doesn't make it wrong what you did. It's just that at the time that's what it seemed like. But sometimes the times, the environments change, things like this. ⁓ so going back more specifically to the question that's a I mean, so first of all, the the what I really like about the systems approach and the systems thinking that I mean you can describe many, many different things in systems form, right? I mean I can talk about distillation columns Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I mean you can describe many, many different things and systems form, right? I mean, I can talk about distillation columns or plants, I can talk about ⁓ individual cells, or I can talk about organs or even ⁓ the human body and look to do some table of systems thinking, depending on what level of abstraction you use. Yeah. ⁓ so that's the first thing. ⁓ what I what really got me interested in systems biology was that ⁓ Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: plants, I can talk about ⁓ individual cells, or I can talk about organs or even ⁓ the human body and look to some table of systems thinking depending on what level of abstraction you use. Yeah. ⁓ so that's the first thing. ⁓ what I what really got me interested in systems biology was that ⁓ the levels of uncertainty that you're dealing with are much, much bigger. Yeah. I mean basically look if you build a chemical plant Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Do? Nifemi Aluko: The levels of uncertainty that you're dealing with are much, much bigger. Yeah. I mean, basically, look, if you build a chemical plant, you build it to a certain spec. Okay. You know it's gonna work somehow. And yeah, maybe it's gonna work a little better or a little worse than you thought, but we have good models, we have reasonable understanding. And so you build you're building something because we are a level of understanding is pretty high. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: You build it to a certain spec. Okay. You know it's gonna work somehow, and yeah, maybe it's gonna work a little better or a little worse than you thought, but we have good models, we have reasonable understanding. And so you're build you're building something because we are a level of understanding is pretty high. When it comes to the systems biology part, now I have this really the cell and it does so many different things I don't even understand. Yeah, and you're trying to figure out what's happening in there, and ⁓ and that raises Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: The three. Nifemi Aluko: When it comes to the systems biology part, now I have this really the cell and it does so many different things I don't even understand. Yeah. And you're trying to figure out what's happening in there. And ⁓ and that raises that basically the level of complexity of trying to understand an existing system versus build a system that you understand pretty well is very important. So that's that's a very different type of challenge. Yeah, yeah. And Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay, Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: That basically the level of complexity of trying to understand an existing system versus build a system that you understand pretty well is very, very different. And so that's that's a very different type of challenge. And now there were some other issues that came into play. I mean, the systems biology you have ⁓ I mean that let's say the level of impact that you have, at least in the long run. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Now there were some other issues that came into play. I mean, the systems biology you have, ⁓ I mean that let's say the level of impact that you have, at least in the long run, is is is likely a lot easier to understand. I mean we've been building chemical plants and we can build them a little better, but when it comes to ⁓ could we come up with a completely new medical treatment? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Is is is likely a lot easier to understand. Okay. I mean we've been building chemical plants and we can build them a little better, but when it comes to like could we come up with a completely new medical treatment for something that's untreatable right now, that could be like a game changer. And it can have a game changer on people's quality of life. Yeah, and so which that led me actually though that led me to a second pivot in my career now after I was at RPI, yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: For something that's untreatable right now, that could be like a game changer. And it can have a game changer on people's quality of life. Yep. Yeah. And so which that led me actually the that led me to a second pivot in my career now after I was at RPI. Yeah. And ⁓ and so like I mean, we still use the same algorithms that we used for systems biology, but ⁓ but we mainly ⁓ about 10 years ago, we mainly switched all of our applications to autism, whereas before it was Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And ⁓ and so like I mean we still use the same algorithms that we used for systems biology, but ⁓ but we mainly ⁓ about ten years ago we mainly switched all of our applications to autism, whereas before it was I mean, we'd looked a lot at ⁓ cytokine signaling, inflammation, and those are important problems. And they're also important problems in autism. Yeah, but what have what really made ⁓ changed my mind there was it was the second paper that we published in autism. Nifemi Aluko: I mean, we looked a lot at ⁓ cytokine signaling, inflammation, and those are important problems. And they're also important problems in autism. Yeah, but what have what really made ⁓ changed my mind there was it was the second paper that we published in autism. And it was basically looking at the data science approach where we we took blood from or at least a collaborator had ⁓ had blood samples from people that analyzed what metabolites in the blood. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Well, it's basically looking at the data science approach where we we took blood from or at least a collaborator had ⁓ had blood samples from people that analyzed what metabolites in the blood, and we used our algorithm to figuring out do the blood samples from the children who have autism diagnosis, are though there are different patterns in these metabolites from from the ones who don't have our diagnosis. And the algorithm could distinguish this pretty well. And we published this. Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ algorithm to figuring out do the blood samples from the children who have autism diagnosis. Are though the different patterns in these metabolites from from the ones who don't have art diagnosis? Yeah. Yeah. The algorithm could distinguish this pretty well. And we published this and suddenly all hell broke loose. Like my phone kept ringing off the horse. People wanted interviews, ⁓ newspapers were writing about this. I thought it was good work. I did not think that it worked. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And suddenly all hell broke loose. Like my phone kept ringing off the hook. People wanted interviews, ⁓ newspapers were writing about this. I thought it was good work. I did not think that it was this much interest. Yeah, and ⁓ and so at that point I only had one student working on others, and everybody else was working on other things. And so I went back to my group and said, you know what? Okay, it's nice to write a paper on something and get good reviews, but if Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, and ⁓ and so at that point I only had one student working on others and everybody else was working on other things. And so I went back to my group and said, you know what? Okay, it's nice to write a paper on something and get good reviews, but if there's so much interest in this field, yeah, for the work we're doing, yeah, our efforts into a field because literally ⁓ many of the papers we write Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: There's so much interest in this field, yeah, for the work we're doing. We should have shift our efforts into a field because literally ⁓ many of the papers we write people get excited about because they're basically ⁓ that type of work may not have been done before. And it's talking about impact. And so for the last decade, we've really used all these ⁓ data science approaches that we've developed. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, can we do more? Nifemi Aluko: People get excited about because they're basically ⁓ that type of work may not have been done before. Impact. And so for the last decade, we've really used all these ⁓ data science approaches that we've developed and we've used them extensively on data related to autism in part because it's it's a problem that's still very poorly understood. I mean, yeah. About where does it come from? Well, we don't really know. Okay. We know some risk factors, but Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And we've used them extensively on data related to autism in part because it's it's a problem that's still very poorly understood. I mean, if people ask about where does it come from, well we don't really know. Okay, we know some risk factors, but there's no definite answer there. Is that the same thing? I mean, there's no ⁓ I mean it's not like there's a there's a treatment that would help everybody, but there are things you can do that help individual people and improves their quality of life tremendously. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: There's no definite answer there. Is that the same thing? I mean, there's no ⁓ I mean, it's not like there's a there's a treatment that would help everybody, but there are things you can do that help individual people. Yeah. And improves their quality of life tremendously. And ⁓ and oftentimes you find that when it comes to a the availability of data for that type of problem, and secondly, how do you go about analyzing this? There's not that much done work done. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And ⁓ and oftentimes you find that when it comes to a the availability of data for that type of problem, and secondly, how do you go about analyzing this, there's not that much done work done. And now my work exactly fits into this and that we have very complex data on what's happening and we're trying to make sense out of it. And ⁓ and so so it's it's very impact driven on what we're focusing on, because ultimately, I mean look, at the Nifemi Aluko: Exactly fits into this and that we have very complex data on what's happening and we're trying to make sense out of it. Yeah. And ⁓ and so so it's it's very impact driven on what we're focusing on. Because ultimately, I mean look at the Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Yes, you can as a researcher at the university, it's easy to focus on. You get the next student, and as long as the student gets a good job, I think you've done it. Yeah, yeah, good, you've done your job. Yeah, you can you've written some papers to show that and that's fine. But if ultimately your work really changes people's lives, yeah, they say, Okay, that you've you've you've made your broader contributions to society that go beyond your own group. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and Jurgen, like this is very interesting because Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yes, you can as a researcher at the university, it's easy to focus on. You get the next student, and as long as the student gets a good job, I think you've done something. Yeah, yeah, and you can you've written some papers to show that and that's fine. But if ultimately your work really changes people's lives, yeah, you say, Okay, that you've you've you've made your broader contributions to society that go beyond your own group. And Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah, good, you done your job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and you're again like this is very interesting because, you know, I saw there's ⁓ you know, as an entrepreneur, right, on my side, there's the okay, you you go through it several journeys where ⁓ you want to solve this interesting problem or you know, there's the engineering side where you're just, you know, tinkering on stuff because you enjoy it, but then you put stuff out there and realize, ⁓ nobody really wants. Nifemi Aluko: You know, as on there's you know, as an entrepreneur, right? On my side, there's the okay, you you go through it several journeys where, ⁓ you want to solve this interesting problem, or you know, there's the engineering side where you're just you know tinkering on stuff because you enjoy it, but then you put stuff out there and realize, ⁓ nobody really wants this thing I built. I thought it was cool, but nobody wants it. Okay. But then with time, as you go, then you start realizing, okay. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: This thing I built. I thought it was cool, but nobody wants it. Okay. But then with time, as you go, then you start realizing, okay, ⁓ there's market demand for something, right? And you can build something that will actually help people or create some value. And as you're saying, telling the story, I is almost like it just boiling it down to very simplistic. Almost there there was something in in the general public that responded to this research, where it was Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ there's market demand for something right and you can build something that will actually help people or create some value and as you're saying telling the story i is almost like it just boiling it down to very simplistic almost there there was something in in the general public that responded to this research where it was then it made it more clear that your research can actually have this external impact. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Then it made it more clear that your research can actually have this external impact in the world, right? it was it a combination you just said it was a combination of different things. What what were some of the most crucial things? Is it more there just there's just more data now? or there was something culturally where people are now focusing on this ⁓ topic. Nifemi Aluko: In the world, right? it was it a combination? You just said it was a combination of different things. What what were some of the most crucial things? Is it more there just there's just more data now? or there was something culturally where people are now focusing on this ⁓ topic. ⁓ what what were some of the main things that came around with this? Well, I say impact formation for you. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: ⁓ what what were some of the main things that would that came around with this like impact formation for you? Nifemi Aluko: I mean, well there's ⁓ there's multiple different things coming together. Okay. I mean one so one now in this like we're talking my pivot from more general systems to art really. So I mean look, there's ⁓ I mean one I one thing that ⁓ one thing that certainly played a role was that ⁓ people had been working in this field, but the the data science had not really Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: I mean, well there's ⁓ th there's multiple different things coming together. Okay. I mean one so one now in this like we're talking my pivot from more general systems to art really, I don't so I mean w look there's ⁓ I mean one I one thing that ⁓ one thing that certainly played a role was that ⁓ people had been working in this field but the the data science had not really Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: made an impact in the field. Okay. It's like whereas for other conditions, there had been a lot more work on data scientists. Like I could like to give you an example, like there were studies where the people looked at a lot of measurements, but then they compare one measurement at a time. Yeah, what we call univariate analysis. Yeah. And I mean that's been that that there's nothing wrong with that. But in data science, we can also say, well, if I look at multiple measurements, maybe I find patterns. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: made an impact in the field yet. Okay. It's like whereas for other conditions, there have been a lot more work on data scientists. Like I could like to give you an example, like there were studies where the people looked at a lot of measurements, but then they compare one measurement at a time, yeah, what we call univariate analysis. Yeah. And I mean that's been that that there's nothing wrong with that. But in data science, we can also say, well, if I look at multiple measurements, maybe I find patterns because Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Hello? Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: My first measurement may be a little too big, but not not so that I would worry about it. The second one may be a little too big. And the third one is a little too low. And each one individually doesn't matter, but I will look at all three of them together and say, ⁓ my God, this is this is a unique signature that you wouldn't find otherwise. Yeah. And I mean we have all these algorithms for us. Yeah. And ⁓ and so then why not apply them in the field? So that was one item. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: My first measurement may be a little too big, but not not so that I would worry about it. And the second one may be a little too big. And the third one is a little too low. And each one individually don't matter, but I will look at all three of them together and say, ⁓ my god, this is this is a unique signature that you wouldn't find otherwise. And I mean we have all these algorithms for this, yeah, and ⁓ and so then why not apply them in the field? Okay. So that's so so that was one item. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I mean another thing isn't this is a totally different angle, but ⁓ I mean there was some personal motivation as well, right? So basically there was some personal motivation where ⁓ when I started looking at what's the state of research in this field and what is our understanding, then you suddenly found out that well, there's more and more kids getting diagnosed, and ⁓ and many of them have very, very strong needs, yeah, support needs, but at the same Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: I mean another thing isn't this is a totally different angle, but ⁓ I mean there was some personal motivation as well, right? ⁓ so basically there were some personal motivation where ⁓ when I started looking at what's the state of research in this field and what is our understanding, then you suddenly found out that well, there's more and more kids getting diagnosed, and ⁓ and many of them have very, very strong needs, yeah, support needs, but at the same time. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: time when it comes to like us really understanding what's going on there and ⁓ what how can we meet those needs it was clear that there's a lot more work that needs to be done and that it's not just bats okay the work that can really last for decades and ⁓ and so all of that played a role. Yeah yeah yeah yeah ⁓ and let me give you ⁓ no basically ⁓ going back twenty something years yeah just basically Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: What? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: when it comes to like us really understanding what's going on there and ⁓ what how can we meet those needs, it was clear that there's a lot more work that needs to be done and that that that's not just Bas, okay, the work that can really last for decades. And ⁓ and so all of that played a role. Yeah. ⁓ and let me give you ⁓ no basically ⁓ going back twenty something years, yeah, for just basic. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: ⁓ huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: So what you described when you when you said like ⁓ you can do this work and it's great work, but nobody cares. That exactly describes the first proposal I ever submitted as a professor. Beautifully written. I had a great literature review. I knew I could do the work. In fact, we did the work afterwards, even though the proposal didn't get funded. Yeah, but when we submitted it, the answers were like, Yeah, who cares? And it was very clear that we were Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: So what you described when you when you said like ⁓ you can do this work and it's great work, but nobody cares. That exactly describes the first proposal I ever submitted as a professor. Okay. It was beautifully written. I had a great literature review. I knew I could do the work. In fact, we did the work afterwards, even though the proposal didn't get funded. Yeah, but when we submitted it, the answers were like, Yeah, who cares? Okay. And it was very clear that we would never get this funded. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: never get this funding. Yeah. We did the work without funding and we had some startup left and we published the work and the papers were there, but but it was really like when it comes to okay, well, the bigger impact, what does society think about that? That wasn't the case. And so for me that was part of the learning process saying okay, it isn't just about doing cool work and it's actually you have to imp have impact on others with your work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so on. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, so we did the work without funding and we had some startup left and we published the work and the papers were there, but but it was really like when it comes to okay, well, the bigger impact, what does society think about that? That wasn't the case. And so for me that was part of the learning process, saying, Okay, it isn't just about doing cool work and it's actually you have to imp have impact on others with your work. Yeah. And so on. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: And so I mean that so I learned that lesson early on, but then you reevaluate every few years in your career saying like okay, I've done a certain amount of things here, I can keep on doing what I'm doing and write a few more papers, or I need to pivot to something where I think the impact will so if I l so looking back at my career so far, yeah, and please understand I'm I mean I'm in my mid fifties. I still have Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And and so I mean that so I learned that lesson early on, but then you reevaluate every few years in your career saying like, Okay, I've done a certain amount of things here, I can keep on doing what I'm doing and write a few more papers, or I need to pivot to something where I think the impact will be high. And so so if I l so looking back at my career so far, yeah, and please understand I'm I mean I'm in my mid fifties. I still have a few years left in my career. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: years left in my yeah yeah yeah good time in retrospective yeah but basically I mean I started really I started out as a data scientist ⁓ who mainly looked at chemical processes. The systems biology came relatively early on but for a long time I had a I had a pretty good balance in my group. And then it shifted more towards systems biology as time went by. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah yeah yeah good time to do it. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: It's not like everything in retrospective. Yeah, but basically, I mean I started really I started out as a data scientist ⁓ who mainly looked at chemical processes. Yeah, the systems biology came relatively early on, but for a long time I had a I had a pretty good balance in my group. And then it shifted more towards systems biology as time went by. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. And ⁓ but then then the my systems at the time I also looked at systems biology both for ⁓ like ⁓ bioproduction processes as well as healthcare. It wasn't just all human health. And then it moved more and more towards to the human health side of things. Yeah. And then again for ⁓ a little under the the last decade, basically on the human health side we focused on ⁓ almost exclusively on autism. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, and ⁓ but then then the my systems at the time I also looked at systems biology both for ⁓ like ⁓ bioproduction processes as well as healthcare. It wasn't just all human health. And then it moved more and more towards to the human health side of things. Yeah. And then again for ⁓ a little under the the last decade, basically on the human health side we focused on ⁓ almost exclusively on autism. Nifemi Aluko: And ⁓ and that's really where I have my network of collaborators where I get data from it's oftentimes driven by okay, well, I can do more work in the field I'm in, and I can write papers and see where I go with this, but is this really where I think I have the biggest impact? And if not, then maybe it's time to think about ⁓ to to pivot a bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I talk to some people who claim that you usually go through these pivots every seven years. ⁓ Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And ⁓ and that's really where I have my network of collaborators where I get data from. And it's oftentimes driven by okay, well, I can do more work in the field I'm in, and I can write papers and see where I go with this, but is this really where I think I have the biggest impact? And if not, then maybe it's time to think about ⁓ to to pivot a bit. I talk to some people who claim that you usually go through these pivots every seven years. ⁓ Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: That's pretty close to what happened in my case, but I don't know if that's a theory or that was something. Yeah. Okay, but that's ⁓ that actually describes my career pretty well so far. We'll see. Yeah. So Yaggin, like as you, you know, go through and navigate, you know, research and all these different topics, right? How do you do you get to points where Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: That's pretty close to what happened in my case, but I don't know if that's a theory or that was just somebody's thought. Okay, but that's ⁓ that actually describes my career pretty well so far. We'll see. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Nice. Yeah. So you're like as you, you know, go through and navigate, you know, research and all these different topics, right? How do you do you get to points where you like say the meaning of what you're doing starts to get blurry and and how do you kind of anchor yourself to okay, get back to the basics of why this is important? Do you have any practices for that? Nifemi Aluko: Eli the meaning of what you're doing starts to get blurry. And how do you kind of anchor yourself to okay, get back to the basics of why this is important? Do you have any practices for that? ⁓ okay. ⁓ I mean, there's there's no good, there's no really good answer other than keeping yourself on a certain schedule. Yeah. And that schedule needs to include you need reality checks by talking to others. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: ⁓ okay. ⁓ I mean, there's there's no good, there's no really good answer other than keeping yourself on a certain schedule. Yeah, and that schedule needs to include you need reality checks by talking to others. Okay, this is basically especially talking to domain experts. Because ⁓ if I'm just sitting there by myself, it's very easy to get lost and to at some point you think this is like you have it perfectly figured out, but the minute you Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: With who? Nifemi Aluko: Okay, this is basically especially talking to domain experts. Because ⁓ if I'm just sitting there by myself, it's very easy to get lost and to at some point you think this is like you have it perfectly figured out, but the minute you talk to others, it becomes clear that no, I don't. And ⁓ and then it's good that you have this discussion. Yeah, and that starts with that you and your students discuss it, that you discuss things with your collaborators. Yeah, I mean that's easy because they're next door or so, right? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: to others, it becomes clear that no, I don't. And ⁓ and then it's good that you have this discussion. Yeah. And that starts with that you and your students discuss it, that you discuss things with your collaborators. Yeah. I mean that's easy because they're next door or so, right? But then when you talk to people who collect the data who may have no clue at all how what you do for the analysis and you talk to them what the problems are and then suddenly you realize that okay, well, what we thought is important here, that's not important at all. Nifemi Aluko: But then when you talk to people who collect the data who may have no clue at all how what you do for the analysis and you talk to them what the problems are, and then suddenly you realize that okay, well, what we thought is important here, that's not important at all. Okay. And ⁓ and so you you the best thing is you have to ground yourself and have regular meetings with people who have is especially people of different mindsets. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay. And ⁓ and so you you the best thing is you have to ground yourself and have regular meetings with people who have is especially people different mindsets. Okay, that's you need people who are work ⁓ where their everyday lives look different from mine. Yeah, because if ⁓ otherwise you get up with this group mentality where we all agree to that everything's that everything is solved until you talk to somebody who Nifemi Aluko: Okay, that's you need people who are work where their everyday lives look different from mine. Because if ⁓ otherwise you get up with this group mentality where we all agree to that everything's that everything is solved until you talk to somebody who who basically whose daily life looks very different, who says, No, that's not what I'm seeing in my work. And that's like for us, for example, when I talk to a practitioner who ⁓ Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: basically whose daily life looks very different who says, No, that's not what I'm seeing in my work. Okay. And that's like for us, for example, when I talk to a practitioner who who who collects the data, you end up with very different problems. Like let me give you some examples. Yeah, like for some of our autism ⁓ diagnosis, yeah, I mean we're looking at these patterns, we're looking at everything from an algorithmic point of view, and we just take like, well the data, they take these measurements, they have a give a professional lab measure, it should all be good. Nifemi Aluko: Who collects the data, you end up with very different problems. Like let me give you some examples. Yeah, like for some of our autism ⁓ diagnosis. Yeah, I mean, we're looking at these patterns, we're looking at everything from an algorithmic point of view, and we just say, like, well, the data, they take these measurements, they have a professional lab measure, it should all be good. you talk to practitioner and they suddenly tell you, ⁓ it matters how you draw the blood. ⁓ Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: you talk to practitioner and they suddenly tell you, ⁓ it matters how you draw the blood and freeze because some of the things that we're measuring, if we freeze it two hours later, you end up with different measurements than if you freeze it immediately. Yeah, and so, well, that it wasn't even on our radar. And you ask people, like, well, is there a general protocol? And say, Well, every doctor does this differently. And so suddenly you start thinking about, well. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Because some of the things that we're measuring, if we freeze it two hours later, you end up with different measurements than if you freeze it immediately. Yeah. And say, Well, that it wasn't even on our radar. And ask people like, well, is there a general protocol? And say, Well, every doctor does this differently. And so suddenly you start thinking about, well, if something works well in the lab where everybody follows the exact same procedure, that doesn't mean that this will work if every doctor can send you a sample. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: If something works well in the lab where everybody follows the exact same procedure, that doesn't mean that this will work if every doctor can send you a sample and that's what they may be interested in. So suddenly you start thinking about problems that were never on our radar because it's very easy to overanalyze this data and start to pull some really minor things out of there, but at the same time we completely lose track of important things that Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: And they may be interested in so suddenly you start thinking about problems that were never on our radar because it's very easy to over analyze this data and start to pull some really minor things out of there, but at the same time we completely lose track of important things that other people really have the feet on the ground, tell you you're the problem you're not solving is not it happens to all of us. Yeah. And I said I Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Other people who really have the feet on the ground tell you like you're the problem you're not solving is not what we're interested in. It happens to all of us. And so and I said I I the best thing you can do is just just make sure you have these regular exchanges with other people. And then ⁓ you have to be do some honest self reflection. You start with everything that, yeah, I have it all figured out and I don't need to learn from others, well you're not gonna get anywhere. You Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I mean the best thing you can do is just just make sure you have these regular exchanges with other people and then ⁓ you have to be do some honest self-reflection. Yeah, exactly. You start with everything that yeah, I have it all figured out and I don't need to learn from others. Well, you're not gonna get anywhere. Yep. It's okay to say, you know what, this was two weeks that I just wasted. Yep. I mean because I didn't think about this ⁓ long enough. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean just Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, exactly. Yep. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: It's okay to say, you know what, this was two weeks that I just wasted. I because I didn't think about this ⁓ long enough. And that's okay. Yeah. I mean just don't waste two weeks all the time, but but yeah. But it's better to waste two weeks rather than saying, ⁓ we wasted six months because we didn't get out of this ⁓ our vote. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Don't waste two weeks all the time, but at the moment. Yeah. But it's better to waste two weeks rather than saying, ⁓ we wasted six months because we didn't get out of this mode of thinking. Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's so funny as you're saying this, there's so many analogies that between researchers and even entrepreneurs that I personally think researchers would be good entrepreneurs because there's just this constant trying to learn from Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's so funny as you're saying this, there's so many analogies that between researchers and even entrepreneurs that ⁓ I personally think researchers would be good entrepreneurs because there's just this constant trying to learn from from what you've done, you know, and reiterating and kind of driving this process. ⁓ but Nifemi Aluko: From what you've done, you know, and reiterating and kind of driving this process. but I have a very different question. As you continue to be an educator, right? For ⁓ whether it's you know, people that are coming into the field, grad students, and you know, we have generative AI where people is really changing how people think about school, right? Especially Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: I have a very different question. As you continue to be an educator, right? For ⁓ whether it's, you know, people that are coming into the field, grad students, and you know, we have generative AI where people is really changing how people think about school, right? Especially, you know, you have students that can easily just get some ⁓ a model to do with their homework, right? Nifemi Aluko: You know, you have students that can easily just get some ⁓ a model to do with their homework, right? So okay, now we start questioning what does homework look like? Should we even be given homework, right? But you know, as an educator, when a student can get instant answers from Gen AI, right, what then becomes the job of the educator? Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: So okay, now we start questioning what does homework look like? Should we even be given homework, right? But you know, as an educator, when the student can get instant answers from Gen AI, right, what then becomes the job of the educator? Nifemi Aluko: Look, this is a great question. And honestly, I I'm not gonna claim I have all the answers. Okay, yeah. But I think there's I think there's several things you have to ask yourself. Okay. So first of all, if ⁓ if Jen AI can do all of your homeworks, then I have to question: are you giving the right types of homeworks? Okay, and this because there are homeworks that were perfectly fine to give five years ago. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Look, this is a great question and honestly, I I'm not gonna claim I have all the answers. Okay. But I think there's I think there's several things you have to ask yourself. Okay. So first of all, if ⁓ if J Jen AI can do all of your homeworks, then I have to question are you giving the right types of homeworks? Okay, and this because there are homeworks that were perfectly fine to give five years ago. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: But right now, if Gen AI can solve the whole thing, then maybe this isn't a maybe that's not a good question. Okay. So I I can tell you one thing that ⁓ we've been thinking a lot here at RPI is about well, how can we ⁓ integrate what you can do with Gen AI rather than we're not here to police people. Okay, because there will be things that in the future that AI will do for you that you may never need to learn about. Yep. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: But right now if Gen AI can solve the whole thing, then maybe this isn't maybe that's not a good question. Okay. So I I can tell you one thing that ⁓ we've been thinking a lot here at RPI is about well, how can we ⁓ integrate what you can do with Gen AI rather than we're not here to police people. Okay, because there will be things that in the future that AI will do for you that you may never need to learn. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Okay, but I'm that but that doesn't mean you don't need to learn anything. Okay. That just means it's a question of what do you need to learn. It's a bit like I mean, we're using calculators, right? Or spreadsheets or whatever, computers, right, for solving many problems. So then nobody nobody would ⁓ figure out a complicated way to take a route by hand anymore nowadays. Right? That's when I have it. So there's there will be skill sets that where it's more becomes important to use Gen AI rather than Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay, but I'm the but that doesn't mean you don't need to learn anything. Okay, that just means it's a question of what do you need to learn. It's a bit like I mean, we're using calculators, right? Or spreadsheets or whatever, computers, right, for solving many problems. So then nobody nobody would ⁓ figure out a complicated way to take a route by hand anymore nowadays, right? That's when I have it. So there's there will be skill sets that where it's more becomes important to use Gen AI rather than Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: rather than basically ⁓ n having needing that knowledge yourself. Yeah. Okay. But needing to find being able to find it is important. Like what like one thing you find that at least I find, yeah, ⁓ I mean with Gen AI to some degree it's what you get out of it is also a lot of what you put into it. Exactly. Your problem if you don't know you if you cannot a ask the question precisely, you're gonna get an answer that may be all over the place. And then Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: rather than basically ⁓ n having needing that knowledge yourself. Okay. But needing to f being able to find it is important. Like what like one thing you find that at least I find, yeah, ⁓ I mean with Gen AI to some degree it's what you get out of it is also a lot of what you put into it. If you don't know if you don't know you if you cannot a ask the question precisely, you're gonna get an answer that may be all over the place. And then Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Your prompts and everything. Nifemi Aluko: It comes up to it's your job to not just say, Well, the well the computer told me this is the answer, but saying that okay, you know what? That that doesn't sound right. Okay. It maybe gave me an answer to the wrong question, right? And then you have to basically ⁓ saying how do I more precisely ask the answers? Okay, and and how do I ⁓ make use of all of this? I think that's more the qu that's that's a skill set that we're gonna have to learn is on. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: it comes up to i it's your job to not just say well the well the computer told me this is the answer but saying that okay you know what that that doesn't sound right okay it gave me maybe gave me an answer to the wrong question right and then you have to basically ⁓ saying how do I more precisely ask the answers okay and and how do I make use of all of this? Okay. So I think that's more the qu that's that's a skill set that we're gonna have to learn is on Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, good. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Both how to properly use AI as well as how to properly debug what it tells you. Because it's a bit like the data question we asked earlier. Yeah, ⁓ you have to ⁓ just because you got an answer doesn't mean that that's the right answer. It's maybe a right answer, but maybe your question wasn't the right one. Yeah, or maybe there's other answers possible, and then that's where that's a skill set that I think there were people still need. But it's clearly the Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Both how to properly use AI as well as how to properly debug what it tells you. Because it's a bit like the data question we asked earlier. Yeah, ⁓ you have to ⁓ just because you got an answer doesn't mean that that's the right answer. It may be a right answer, but maybe your question wasn't the right one. Or maybe there's other answers possible, and then that's where that's a skill set that I think there were people still need. But it's clearly the Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I mean the emergence of generative AI will have a big impact on education and what we teach people. ⁓ I don't think anybody's figured that out. Deal with it. There's people a lot of people trying different approaches. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, the for me, the thing that keeps coming back is ⁓ you know, I feel like we're in a phase where depending on what you're watching, everything is so noisy. Everybody is an Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: I mean the emergence of generative AI will have a big impact on education and what we teach people. ⁓ I don't think anybody's figured that out out deal with it. There's people a lot of people trying different approaches. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: What home? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, the for me, the thing that keeps coming back is ⁓ you know, I feel like we're in a phase where depending on what you're watching, everything is so noisy. Everybody is an expert, right? Everybody's an expert at something. And experts always have answers. They always have answers, right? Where for me I think the the bu beauty or per perhaps is even learning some of the research approaches. Nifemi Aluko: Experts, right? Everyone's an expert at something. And experts always have answers. They always have answers, right? Where for me, I think the the bu beauty or per perhaps is even learning some of the research approaches is not necessarily about having the best answer, but having the best question or a better question is even the more important thing. And it will be interesting to see how education now goes around. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: It's not necessarily about having the best answer, but having the best question or a better question is even the more important thing. And it will be interesting to see how education now goes around or sh is shaped more around getting people to ask better questions as opposed to making sure they're showing up with the best answer. Nifemi Aluko: Or sh is shaped more around getting people to ask better questions as opposed to right making sure they're showing up with the best answer. No, I look, I completely agree. Okay. Like this is ⁓ asking the right questions is is not easy. Okay. And that's a skill set by itself. And part of that also is that when you ask a question, it needs to be precise. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: No, I look, I completely agree. Okay. Like this is ⁓ asking the right questions is is not easy. Okay. And that's a skill set by itself. And part of that also is that when you ask a question, it needs to be precise, but you also need to kind of know the boundary of what you're asking. Because like I mean, there isn't like one question for life in the universe and everything, right? that's not a very precise question. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: But you also need to kind of know the boundary of what you're asked. Yeah. Because, like, I mean, there isn't like one question for life in the universe and everything, right? Yeah. That's not a very precise question, and you can't get a good answer for that anyway. Yeah. And ⁓ and so whenever you ask a question, it needs to be precise enough, but you also need to know what the boundary is ⁓ of what you're defining, and then then basically you the when you get the answer. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And you can't get a good answer for that anyway. Yeah. And ⁓ and so whenever you ask a question, it needs to be precise enough, but you also need to know what the boundary is ⁓ of what you're defining. And then then basically you the when you get the answer, you may you have to revisit if the question you asked is the right one or if it needs to be refined, things like this. And I think those are all skill sets where ⁓ that people still need. Nifemi Aluko: you may you may have to revisit if the question you asked is the right one or if it needs to be refined, things like this. And I think those are all skill sets where that people still need. Yeah. I think one of the things that's going to happen is that the amount of programming people do that will probably ⁓ change very quite a bit because ⁓ most generative AIs can program very well. But they also program based upon what you tell it to. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, I think one of the things that's gonna happen is that the amount of programming people do that will probably ⁓ change very quite a bit because ⁓ most generative AIs can program very well, but they also program based upon what you tell it to. Yeah, and if you're not precise in formulating what you want it to do, you're also gonna get not quite what you expected. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, and if you're not precise and formulating what you want it to do, you're also gonna get not got what you expected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are the those are some important skill sets as well, which come down to it, yeah, ask the right questions. Mm-hmm. And I think that's all that's an important part that I don't see going away. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So Jurgen, two two two more questions ⁓ before we end today. ⁓ so you know, ⁓ how do you Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Thanks. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Those are the those are some important skill sets as well, which come down to it, yeah, ask the right questions. And and I think that's all that's an important part that I don't see going away. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So Jan, two two, two more questions ⁓ before we end today. ⁓ so you know, ⁓ how do you ⁓ how does building technology, using data science, ⁓ you know, building ⁓ things and you know, systems analysis, how does that ⁓ s shape your sense of purpose and contribution to the world and others? And how does it actually help you make sense? Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ how does building technology, using data science, you know, building ⁓ things in, you know, systems analysis, how does that ⁓ shape your sense of purpose and contribution to the world and others? And how does it actually help you make sense of the world? Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: of the world. Nifemi Aluko: That's a very big question. Yeah, it's a loaded question. But I mean, look, let me give you some examples. Yeah. Yeah. Let me go back to the healthcare space and some of the work that we're doing. Yeah. so ⁓ like a simple example that ⁓ even even if somebody doesn't have a background in healthcare, yeah, it's like ⁓ when you get your cholesterol checked, yeah, which at my age I have to do annually. Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: That's a very big question. But I mean, look, let me give you some examples. Yeah. And then let's go let me back to the healthcare space and some of the work that we're doing. Yeah. so ⁓ like a simple example that ⁓ even even if somebody doesn't have a background in healthcare, yeah, it's like ⁓ when you get your cholesterol checked, yeah, which at my age I have to do annually, yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, it's a loaded question. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And ⁓ and basically, I mean, they measure your good cholesterol, you measure your bad cholesterol, right? And I can look at is the good cholesterol with the range I'm interested in, is the bad one is in the range. But they also look at what's the ratio. Okay. And so now for the ratio, it means now I actually need two variables at a time. So this is the turns from a univariate problem into multivariate problem. Okay. And obviously, ⁓ now that's just for cholesterol, but Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And ⁓ and basically, I mean they measure your good cholesterol, you measure your bad cholesterol, right? And I can look at is the good cholesterol with the range I'm interested in, is the bad one in the range. But they also look at what's the ratio. Okay, and so now for the ratio, it means now I actually need two variables at a time. So this is the turns from a univariate problem into multivariate problem. Okay. And obviously, ⁓ now that's just for cholesterol, but when you start Nifemi Aluko: When you start going in much more complex conditions where you don't have there is not this one measurement that tells you if you have condition X or Y. You're looking for patterns. But now then this allows you you can, for example, you can diagnose people earlier using data science than you could without. Yeah. Okay. At least it has the potential. Yeah. And now if I can diagnose people earlier, that means I may be able to ⁓ get them therapies earlier. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Go into much more complex conditions where you don't have, there is not this one measurement that tells you if you have condition X or Y. You're looking for patterns. But now then this allows you you can, for example, you can diagnose people earlier using data science than you could without. Okay, at least it has the potential. Yeah. And now if I can diagnose people earlier, that means I may be able to ⁓ get them therapies earlier. If I really put on my science fiction hat. Nifemi Aluko: If I really put on my science fiction hat, okay, maybe I can diagnose it so early that you're actually not suffering from the condition yet because it hasn't developed to the point and maybe I can slow it down that you will never have to suffer from this. That way I haven't saw I haven't ⁓ I mean that way I wouldn't have cured anybody, but at the same time I I improved your quality of life dramatically. Now that doesn't work for autism, okay, because autism is developmental rather than Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Okay, maybe I can diagnose it so early that you're actually not suffering from the condition yet because it hasn't developed to the point and maybe I can slow it down that you will never have to suffer from this condition. That way I haven't so I haven't ⁓ I mean that way I wouldn't have cured anybody, but at the same time I I improved your quality of life dramatically. Now that doesn't work for autism, okay, because autism is developmental rather than degenerative, but ⁓ but the idea Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Нет, нет. Nifemi Aluko: Degenerative, but ⁓ here that you're basically ⁓ using data science to find trends, yeah, and to which may lead you to saying, hey, let's run another measurement, yeah, let's get let's get another blood sample to measure something else, to rule out certain other conditions. Yeah, all of those things ⁓ can really improve quality of life. Yeah, yeah. And because what you find, I mean, if you ever look at Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: That you're basically using data science to find trends, yeah, and to which may lead you to saying, hey, let's run another measurement, yeah, let's get let's get another blood sample to measure something else, to rule out certain other conditions. All of those things can really improve quality of life. Okay, and because what you find, I mean, if you ever look at anybody who has a complex medical condition. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Nice, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Anybody who has a complex medical condition and you find out, well, how many years does it take to diagnose this? And you find like the average time is super long. Okay, that means these people had conditions already, they knew something was wrong, but nobody knew what was wrong. What it was, yeah, and therefore nothing couldn't be treated properly. Yeah. And if you basically can use AI to guide this process early on by saying, Hey, there are certain trends here, this does not look normal. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And you find out, well, how many years does it take to diagnose this? And you find like the average time is super long. Okay. And that means these people had conditions already. They knew something was wrong, but nobody knew what was wrong. And and therefore nothing couldn't be treated properly. Yeah. And if you basically can use AI to guide this process early on by saying, Hey, there are certain trends here. This does not look normal. That doesn't mean you should panic and Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. What it was, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: doesn't mean you should panic and and and and worry about it and never reduce that quality of life but basically saying like look there's there's this could be this this and this and this but there's a certain test you can run to ⁓ to rule out some of these things and we can get this diagnosed much earlier and then you can do something about it that really improves people's quality of life significantly okay I know some of what I just said is science fiction but well some of us we're not that far off. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And and and worry about it and never reduce that quality of life. But basically saying that look, there's there's this could be this, this, and this, and this, but there's a certain test you can run to ⁓ to rule out some of these things, and we can get this diagnosed much earlier, and then you can do something about it, that really improves people's quality of life significantly. Okay. I mean, I know some of what I just said is science fiction, but ⁓ some of us were not that far off. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And ⁓ and so this is where data science really has an impact that goes way beyond what we can do. I mean, and the second item related to this, I mean, when it ever comes to healthcare, there's always the quality of care and there's always a cost issue. Okay. And ⁓ and when you want to give as many people as possible as high a quality as you can, but as you look at what things cost in terms of you have to you can't ignore that, okay. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: ⁓ and so this is where data science really has an impact that goes way beyond what we can do. I mean, and the second item related to this, I mean, when it ever comes to healthcare, there's always the quality of care and there's always a cost issue. Okay. And ⁓ and when you want to give as many people as possible as high a quality as you can, but as you look at what things cost in terms of you have to you can't ignore that. Okay. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: That's a that's one of the constraints you're running into. And so you can use data science in order to basically ⁓ guide these things to basically ⁓ to help with making yeah, to help with earlier diagnosis, more accurate diagnosis, which can also then heal help with better ⁓ better or more accurate treatments, you have ⁓ you have a lot of potential there as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: That's a that's one of the constraints you're running into. And so if you can use data science in order to basically guide these things to basically ⁓ to help with making yeah, to help with earlier diagnosis, more accurate diagnosis, which can also then he help with better ⁓ better or more accurate treatments, you have ⁓ you have a lot of potential there as well. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: With him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, and ⁓ last question, and this is usually like a fun question that I've been asking people, and you know, you alluded to it already with some science fiction. And as a science fiction author myself, I like playing around with these things. ⁓ so if the entire world so there are two scenarios, you know, the entire world goes full dystopian, right? And what I mean full dystopian is, you know, we have we build this technology that is not necessarily helping us like it's Nifemi Aluko: So yeah, and ⁓ last question, and this is usually like a fun question that I've been asking people. And you know, you alluded to it already with some science fiction. And as a science fiction author myself, I like playing around with these things. ⁓ so if the entire world, so there are two scenarios, you know, the entire world goes full dystopian, right? And what I mean full dystopian is, you know, we have we build this technology that is not necessarily helping us like it's you know, we have these machines taking over our lives where Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: You know, we have these machines taking over our lives, we're we're kind of indebted to to to the technology. That's full dystopian. But on the other hand, you know, it's a utopian world where, you know, we have a long life. ⁓ we do ⁓ these the these intelligent systems that were built are actually serving us well. ⁓ we're not stressed about work, we're not stressed about finances, right? Utopia, right? So we have these two scenarios. Nifemi Aluko: We're kind of indebted to to to the technology. That's full dystopian. But on the other hand, you know, it's a utopian world where, you know, we have a long life. ⁓ we don't ⁓ these the these intelligent systems that were built are actually serving us well. ⁓ we're not stressed about work, we're not stressed about finances, right? Utopia, right? So we have these two scenarios. If you were to choose one. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: If you were to choose one, either one is fine. You could choose dystopian or you could choose utopian. Like, choose one and then tell me what practices you do on a daily basis just to, you know, nurture meaning in your life or just to stay sane. Nifemi Aluko: Either one is fine. You could choose dystopian or you could choose utopian. Like choose one and then tell me what practices you do on a daily basis just to, you know, nurture meaning in your life or just to stay sane. I mean look, well, I don't find the dystopian one interesting at all. Okay. So it's clearly not that. I mean obviously the question becomes how do you define utopian and there ⁓ look we when we can use data and automation to make our life simpler, I am all for it. Okay. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: I mean look, well I don't find the dystopian one interesting at all. Okay. So it's clearly not that. I mean obviously the question becomes how do you define utopian and there ⁓ look we when we can use data and automation to make our life simpler, I am all for it. Okay. Nifemi Aluko: Now, I don't want to push that to the degree where people become mindless because the because the machines take care of everything. I personally think that that having both a proper job to go to, yeah, and interactions with other people, not just careers, by the way. Yeah, and interactions with other people, I think that that's very healthy for human beings. And I think that should be, but you could argue that could be part of utopia, right? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Now, I don't want to push that to the degree where people become mindless because the because the machines take care of everything. I personally think that that having both a proper job to go to, yeah, and interactions with other people, right? Not just computers, by the way. Yeah, and interactions with other people, I think that that's very healthy for human beings. And I think that should be, but you could argue that could be part of utopian, right? Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And and so but at the same time there are certain types of labor. I mean if your machines help you with it, I'm all for it. Okay. So if it can be automated. So ⁓ so I'm more on the utopian side, but I don't I I'm not a believer in this that the machines will take care of all everything that we don't want to do and then we just have l spare time at home because I I don't think that that's good for anybody either. You just I think ⁓ Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And and so but at the same time there are certain types of labor. I mean, if your machines help you with it, I'm all for it. Okay. It's if it can be automated. So ⁓ so I'm more on the utopian side, but I don't bel I I'm not a believer in this that the machines will take care of all everything that we don't want to do and then we just have l spare time at home because I per don't think that that's good for anybody either. You just I think ⁓ Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: There's certain types of jobs maybe that get that maybe people don't need to do anymore, or where they're more supervising machines and computers rather than doing the hard labor themselves. I think that's a that's a good thing. Yeah. ⁓ now when you said, Well, how does my role fit into this? Like I are you asking what what I would want to be or Yeah. ⁓ yeah, what do you do? Like what would you do with your with your time? Yeah. And Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: There's certain types of jobs maybe that get that maybe people don't need to do anymore, or where they're more supervising machines and computers rather than doing the hard labor themselves. And think that's a that's a good thing. ⁓ now when you said, Well, how does my role fit into this? Like I are you asking what what I would want to be or Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. yeah. What would you do? Like what would you do with your with your time? Yeah, and what would you you know? Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Well look actually the and now this may sound silly, but I actually like what I'm doing right now. And I think that even in a utopian society, I do peop think people need an education. Yeah. And and ⁓ to be honest, one of the most fun parts of this job is actually to work with students. Okay. And ⁓ and and more importantly than not just to work with them but you see what they make of whether their careers Nifemi Aluko: And now this may sound silly, but I actually like what I'm doing right now. And I think that even in a utopian society, I do people think people need an education. Yeah. And and ⁓ to be honest, one of the most fun parts of this job is actually to work with students. Okay. And ⁓ and and more importantly than not just to work with them, but you see what they make of whether their careers and and then look at this and saying, you know what, maybe I did a little bit Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: No. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: And ⁓ and then look at this and saying, you know what, maybe I did a little bit maybe I've I I've provided a little bit of ⁓ yeah, of the background they needed for this. Yeah. And and so that this is by the way, that's why it's a lot of fun to talk with you and you've written four books already. By the way, I I have written a lot less than four books. So ⁓ so you got me beat there. Nifemi Aluko: Maybe I've I I've provided a little bit of ⁓ yeah of the background they needed for this. Yeah. So this is by the way, that's why it's a lot of fun to talk with you and you've written four books already. By the way, I I have written a lot less than four books. So ⁓ you got me beat there. Yeah. It's fantastic to look back at this and what you've made ⁓ out of your life and your career and say, well, you know what, maybe I played in a small place. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: ⁓ it's fantastic to look back at this and what you've made ⁓ out of your life and your career and say, well, you know what, maybe I played in a small place in part. Yeah. And so ⁓ that's ⁓ I think that even in a very futuristic society, there there's a there ⁓ basically there's a need for that. And I I still like that part. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: And so that's ⁓ I think that even in a very futuristic society, there there's a there ⁓ basically there's a need for that. And I I still like that part. Yeah, all right. Jorgen, thank you very much. And it is self-evident that you know what you're doing has impacts. Look at me, what almost 20 years from you know, when we were sitting in the lab at Texas AM together and we're both advancing, still talking about very interesting topics. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. Jorgen, thank you very much. And it is self-evident that you know what you're doing has impact. Look at me, what almost 20 years from you know, when we were sitting in the lab at Texas AM together, and we're both advancing, still talking about very interesting topics. And thank you very much for your time. And I'm looking forward to incorporating some of these insights that you've provided into my next book. So Nifemi Aluko: And thank you very much for your time. And I'm looking forward to incorporating some of these insights that you've provided into my next book. So thank you very much. I'm going to end this recording. Thanks for having me. For sure, for sure, for sure. Thank you very much. Nifemi Aluko Juergen Hahn Perspective: Thank you very much. I'm going to end this recording. For sure, for sure, for sure. Thank you very much. Juergen Hahn Juergen Hahn Perspective: Yeah, thanks for having me.