Latest / MUBI Podcast / MUSSOLINI: SON OF THE CENTURY — Joe Wright gazes into the abyss

Transcript

MUSSOLINI: SON OF THE CENTURY — Joe Wright gazes into the abyss · MUBI Podcast

• 0:00
  Heads up, this episode includes some adult language and spoilers.
• 0:08
  The music was the first idea I had.
• 0:10
  As I was reading the book, I was thinking, I need to make sure that this has a modernity.
• 0:15
  I need to make sure that it speaks to what's happening now.
• 0:20
  So I asked Tom Rowlands, who I'd worked with before and have known for many years, one half of the Chemical Brothers, to do the music.
• 0:31
  That was the very first choice I made, and so the imagery came out of the music rather than the other way round.
• 0:42
  That is filmmaker Joe Wright.
• 0:44
  And yeah, his new streaming series is based on a book about the dark past.
• 0:48
  But as you can hear from this Tom Rowlands track definitely feels like the freaky present.
• 0:56
  The show is calledMussolini: Son of the Century about dictator Benito Mussolini and his violent rise from bitter, power hungry newspaper editor to founder of fascism, to strongman ruler of Italy.
• 1:08
  Its surreal, blackly comic and, for me, pretty unsettling.
• 1:12
  A few minutes into the opening episode, Mussolini looks right into the camera
• 1:23
  and says: "I'm like an animal.
• 1:24
  and says: "I can smell the times ahead, and this is my time." He's talking about the run up to World War Two, but also the times ahead could be right now.
• 1:40
  and says: I'm Rico Gagliano.
• 1:40
  and says: Welcome back to the MUBI Podcast.
• 1:43
  and says: MUBI's the global film company that champions great cinema.
• 1:45
  and says: On this show we tell you the stories behind great cinema.
• 1:48
  and says: Thanks to Simran Hans for her fabulous job guest hosting last season.
• 1:51
  and says: I couldn't be happier to be back and cooking up season ten for you.
• 1:54
  and says: That is coming in November.
• 1:56
  and says: But first this special episode.
• 1:58
  and says: It is my interview with Joe Wright about Mussolini: Son of the Century.
• 2:02
  and says: You can watch every episode on MUBI right now in the US, Canada, Latin America and many other countries.
• 2:07
  and says: But a few weeks back before it debuted, we screened the first two episodes here in LA at the American Cinematheque Los Feliz 3 cinema.
• 2:15
  and says: Afterwards, I spoke to Joe live on stage and you are about to hear the conversation.
• 2:20
  and says: I started with a rundown of his impressive resume.
• 2:25
  and says: He is the director of Pride and Prejudice,Atonement, Hanna,Darkest Hour, that's just a few.
• 2:30
  and says: His movies have been nominated for 22 Oscars and won four.
• 2:35
  and says: Please welcome the director of M: Son of the Century, Joe Wright.
• 2:43
  and says: - Hi.
• 2:43
  and says: - That's Joe.
• 2:45
  and says: Hello. Hello.
• 2:46
  and says: That's the audience. Hello.
• 2:49
  and says: So, just to address the elephant in the room right off the bat, you have said straight up that you wanted to do a movie about fascism because of the kind of rise of the right wing around the world.
• 3:01
  and says: And I'm wondering at what moment the story of Mussolini became the lens that you were going to tell that story through.
• 3:08
  and says: Like what brought you to Mussolini?
• 3:11
  and says: Lorenzo Mieli.
• 3:11
  and says: Lorenzo Mieli is the Italian producer of Paolo Sorrentino's movies and some of Guadagninos movies, and so I wanted to work with him.
• 3:23
  and says: I was a big fan of his work and also the show Gomorrah, which was written by Stefano Bises, the same writer.
• 3:33
  and says: About the Mafia?
• 3:34
  and says: Yeah. And so we started talking around-- I was releasing Cyrano and he was releasing Hand of God.
• 3:41
  and says: And so we kept on sort of bumping into each other around the place, and we started talking, and that was the beginning of it.
• 3:48
  and says: What did you know of Mussolini at that time?
• 3:50
  and says: I mean, to what extent were you familiar.
• 3:52
  and says: Not a huge amount, to be honest with you.
• 3:54
  and says: He kind of, he was always just a bit of a comical figure.
• 3:58
  and says: I remember seeing some film of him when I was a teenager and sort of impersonating him, these sort of ridiculous gestures and so on.
• 4:08
  and says: And in a way, I feel like, you know, as teenagers, we used to go around calling any authoritarian figure fascist, you know, we'd call the police fascists and we'd call our teachers fascists.
• 4:22
  and says: And and we kind of trivialized the word.
• 4:24
  and says: And then sort of, I guess around 2016, when the word started to reemerge in the public consciousness, and I felt it was sort of incumbent upon...
• 4:36
  and says: us all really to understand what it was and the etymology of the word, where it came from.
• 4:42
  and says: And so this was an opportunity to educate myself.
• 4:46
  and says: It's interesting that you were talking about how he's seen as a goof,'cause that was my sum total knowledge of like, somehow he is like the fascist, the less scary fascist of that era, somehow.
• 4:58
  and says: Why?
• 4:58
  and says: How is it that he clearly terribly dangerous and violent person, got this reputation as being the kind of clown of that era?
• 5:06
  and says: Is it just like by virtue of not having had a Holocaust?
• 5:10
  and says: I think it's partly by virtue of his delivery, his speeches.
• 5:14
  and says: You know, they are so kind of absurd, the way he spoke and moved.
• 5:20
  and says: I think also there's some kind of racism in there as well, possibly towards the Italians, you know, in the 20s and 30s and so on.
• 5:28
  and says: I mean, if you look at Howard Hawks'Scarface and the way people thought about Italians, they were kind of a joke.
• 5:36
  and says: Do you think that's why there are so few?
• 5:38
  and says: 'Cause the other thing I was trying to think of was like, how many movies really grapple with Mussolini as a figure?
• 5:43
  and says: - None.
• 5:43
  and says: - Yeah.
• 5:44
  and says: And not even Italian movies.
• 5:47
  and says: There's a great film by Marco Bellocchio called Vincere, which is sort of about one of his mistresses, more than it's about him, but that's basically it.
• 5:59
  and says: There's a Tea with Mussolini which deals with him indirectly, but I think the Italians, you know, after the fascist period, after the Second World War, brushed the whole thing under the carpet.
• 6:12
  and says: There was no Nuremberg trials, there was no truth and reconciliation.
• 6:18
  and says: There were a few kind of, quite a lot of localized retributions, but there was no national kind of accountability, really, which is why also I think that latent fascism was allowed to keep going, you know, and I was really shocked when making this in Italy, talking to people, you know, lots of people talking about how, you know, "He was okay, Mussolini.
• 6:45
  and says: "He was, you know, he was all right.
• 6:45
  and says: He fell in with this guy, Hitler.
• 6:49
  and says: "He was a bad apple, you know. Spoiled him." But Mussolini himself was okay.
• 6:55
  and says: This was prevalent?
• 6:56
  and says: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
• 6:58
  and says: Even thinking, like, within kind of like filmmaking circles and like showbiz circles.
• 7:02
  and says: - I mean?
• 7:02
  and says: - It's where you go as well, you know.
• 7:04
  and says: But I mean, you know, every year at Mussolini's grave, there are large gatherings of neo fascists doing the salute, you know.
• 7:14
  and says: What do you attribute that to that?
• 7:16
  and says: You know, whereas in Germany, obviously there was a huge reckoning and continues to be.
• 7:20
  and says: I don't know. I don't know why I don't know why there wasn't that reckoning.
• 7:23
  and says: I guess the focus was really on the Nazis and not so much on the Italians.
• 7:29
  and says: When you were doing this research, it makes me wonder if you've come across stuff that surprised you beyond that.
• 7:36
  and says: It's all pretty extraordinary, really.
• 7:40
  and says: The classic fascist salute which they attributed to the Romans.
• 7:46
  and says: But actually the Romans never saluted like that.
• 7:49
  and says: I like that one.
• 7:50
  and says: - Where did it come from?
• 7:50
  and says: - They made it up.
• 7:52
  and says: I mean, they kind of thought it was a bit like a Roman one, but it wasn't.
• 7:55
  and says: But it's the same deal.
• 7:57
  and says: It's the you know, they harked back to their Roman roots as the, you know, Nazis harked back to their Teutonic kind of glory days.
• 8:06
  and says: It's that kind of reactionary feeling that you get with these ultra right wing people.
• 8:12
  and says: And there is some sort of obvious through lines between all these kind of strongman figures throughout history.
• 8:18
  and says: What do you think is the kind of baseline background maybe that was in Mussolini's background that runs through all of these kind of guys?
• 8:25
  and says: Toxic masculinity, really.
• 8:28
  and says: What I kind of ended up feeling-- for a start, I was trying to figure out what fascism really was.
• 8:35
  and says: And at the end of the day, there is a great big void at the center of it, and there is nothing there.
• 8:42
  and says: But what it does seem to me to be the politicization of toxic masculinity, and that can exist in a relationship or in a family or in a small community, or it can exist on a national level, as it does in the case of fascism.
• 9:00
  and says: Do you know how that manifested itself in him to start with?
• 9:04
  and says: Like where that came from with him?
• 9:05
  and says: Bitterness and resentment and a feeling like, people didn't take him seriously enough.
• 9:11
  and says: I know that he thought of himself as a kind of intellectual.
• 9:14
  and says: Was there a point where he wasn't taken seriously, as...
• 9:16
  and says: He was never an intellectual. Really.
• 9:19
  and says: I mean, he was incredibly smart in some ways.
• 9:23
  and says: His manipulation of media, he invented that, really the kind of modern manipulation of media.
• 9:31
  and says: But, he was a school teacher for a while.
• 9:36
  and says: He was just someone who felt like he'd been hard done by, really and wanted to set out to prove himself.
• 9:44
  and says: But I think at the center of him was a great you know, as I said about fascism, at the center of him was also a great big void of nothingness.
• 9:53
  and says: And he tried to fill that with power and glory, which worked for a while.
• 9:59
  and says: And then it didn't.
• 10:00
  and says: - Yes. Usually ends up that way.
• 10:00
  and says: - Yeah.
• 10:03
  and says: You've grappled with this era before this kind of lead up to World War Two in Atonement, and then in Darkest Hour.
• 10:12
  and says: First of all, what attracts you to that era?
• 10:15
  and says: I don't know. It's like, I think I feel like I was born in the wrong time.
• 10:20
  and says: When I was a kid, like 13, I became obsessed with Noel Coward, and...
• 10:28
  and says: and I used to kind of, you know, carry around a boombox playing Noel Coward and wearing cravats.
• 10:34
  and says: Which didn't go down very well in my inner city environment.
• 10:39
  and says: - This would be like the 80s, right?
• 10:39
  and says: - Yeah.
• 10:41
  and says: - Yeah.
• 10:41
  and says: - Really, really cool.
• 10:43
  and says: Really like 1983-4.
• 10:46
  and says: You're blastingWhy Do the Wrong People Travel? Yes, I'm Mad About the Boy.
• 10:52
  and says: Got the shit kicked out of me.
• 10:53
  and says: - Where the hell did that come...?
• 10:53
  and says: - By the local fascists.
• 10:56
  and says: I don't know.
• 10:56
  and says: I mean, my dad was born in 1906.
• 11:00
  and says: He was 65 when I was born, so I kind of felt like, I did the maths, and I kind of thought, well, maybe I should have been born in, like, you know, the late 20s and...
• 11:08
  and says: - Spiritually.
• 11:08
  and says: - Yeah.
• 11:09
  and says: And also, I guess it's a way of getting to figure out who he was, you know, trying to understand him through the times he lived.
• 11:17
  and says: - Your dad?
• 11:17
  and says: - Yeah.
• 11:18
  and says: So but I mean, just kind of culturally you were kind of interested in the music...
• 11:22
  and says: I loved all of that, you know?
• 11:23
  and says: I mean, I was also I used to go to, we didn't have a TV, and there was a wonderful woman called Joan who lived around the corner.
• 11:31
  and says: And every Friday her husband would cook me fish and chips, and Joan and I would watch, you know, Greta Garbo and Errol Flynn and all those wonderful movies, you know, Boulting Brothers,Brighton Rock.
• 11:46
  and says: Brief Encounter was a big one.
• 11:46
  and says: You know?
• 11:48
  and says: These are I mean, these are all the wonderful aspects of that era, but you're dealing with very specifically, like the lead up to war, like one of the most horrific things that's ever happened to the world.
• 11:57
  and says: Yeah, yeah, I know it's weird, isn't it?
• 12:00
  and says: I mean, it's kind of, I think probably I had a certain romance about the period as well.
• 12:06
  and says: You know, I think, I think I probably liked the sense in which things were very-- seemed simpler.
• 12:14
  and says: But I feel like your movies are kind of revealing that that's not the case.
• 12:17
  and says: Yeah, I think that's true.
• 12:19
  and says: Do you think that this is an exercise in kind of disabusing yourself of nostalgia?
• 12:22
  and says: - Maybe on some level?
• 12:22
  and says: - Yeah, I think that's true.
• 12:25
  and says: I think because also, I mean, you know, I was brought up in this weird kind of fairy tale home with this kind of venerated older father.
• 12:36
  and says: And then you go into the streets of London in the 80s and there were, you know, on one side of the street you had the socialists selling their newspaper, and on the other side of the street you had the fascists, the National Front selling their newspaper.
• 12:51
  And then at about 4: 00, when the market was over, they'd put their papers down and have a fight.
• 12:55
  And then at about 4: And it was quite a violent world, kind of.
• 12:58
  And then at about 4: So it's always trying to reconcile those two things, really, those two experiences.
• 13:03
  And then at about 4: I mean, fascinating that you then make a movie about fascists and socialists literally fighting.
• 13:08
  And then at about 4: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:10
  And then at about 4: The thing that I think that really connects all three of these movies is- that they're about the lead up to a war.
• 13:13
  And then at about 4: - Yeah.
• 13:16
  And then at about 4: And you seem less interested in the war part.
• 13:18
  And then at about 4: There's a little bit of it in Atonement.
• 13:20
  And then at about 4: Kind of the middle act of Atonement has some battle scenes.
• 13:23
  And then at about 4: But it's about the lead up and the aftermath.
• 13:26
  And then at about 4: What do you think?
• 13:28
  And then at about 4: It's that really strange period.
• 13:28
  And then at about 4: And it's the Noel Coward period, you know?
• 13:31
  And then at about 4: It's the Bright Young Things, period.
• 13:31
  And then at about 4: It's this, it was this kind of strange fever dream period of, you know, Otto Dix and...
• 13:39
  And then at about 4: Who's that?
• 13:40
  And then at about 4: Isherwood, and Otto Dix was a German painter, and he painted these kind of grotesque cabaret paintings and etchings.
• 13:49
  And then at about 4: And it's this kind of strange, expressionistic period that I find really fascinating.
• 13:55
  And then at about 4: And then also you have, there's all the lies around it as well.
• 13:59
  And then at about 4: You know, there's all the kind of bullshit that suggests that Britain was, you know, always against fascism, which was rubbish.
• 14:06
  And then at about 4: You know, there was a huge I mean, even the royal family were pretty fascist at the time.
• 14:11
  And then at about 4: I mean, Churchill wrote letters of congratulation to Mussolini when he took power after the march on Rome.
• 14:19
  And then at about 4: There's a kind of really strange myth that's told about Britain at that time.
• 14:26
  And then at about 4: And I find that whole kind of period dark and and strange and fascinating.
• 14:32
  And then at about 4: The first inkling that I got that that existed, I'm going to forget the name of the series it's about the detective in Britain during this period.
• 14:39
  And then at about 4: Oh, yeah. Foyle's war.
• 14:41
  And then at about 4: - Foyle's War.
• 14:41
  And then at about 4: - Yeah, yeah.
• 14:42
  And then at about 4: Where it's like this guy investigating things while there's a war going on.
• 14:45
  And then at about 4: And it's the first inkling that I ever had as an American that like, oh, yeah, there were UK people who were really into Nazis during World War Two.
• 14:52
  And then at about 4: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:53
  And then at about 4: You know, oh, we have a long history of fascism in Britain.
• 14:57
  And then at about 4: - We'll get more into that in a second.
• 14:57
  And then at about 4: - Yeah.
• 15:00
  And then at about 4: You have said that you have, one of the things that you had a hard time with or that you wanted to do with this was find this balance in portraying Mussolini.
• 15:07
  And then at about 4: You didn't want to portray him without charm, because then Italians would seem like they were idiots to have been enthralled by him.
• 15:15
  And then at about 4: But then you don't want to make him too charming, because you don't want to create this character that on some level is, like, relatable and like you feel like is cool.
• 15:22
  And then at about 4: What was the moment, like the scene or the sequence in this that was hardest to kind of strike that balance?
• 15:28
  And then at about 4: I guess the idea, I'm quite into Bertolt Brecht having directedLife of Galileo on stage in London, and I quite liked the idea of playing with the kind of balance between critical distance and empathy.
• 15:46
  And then at about 4: And I felt very strongly that he needed to seduce the audience at times.
• 15:51
  And then at about 4: And then the challenge was to flip that and have the audience catch themselves empathizing.
• 15:59
  And then at about 4: So really, as the show goes on at about the kind of change from episode 4 to 5, it takes on a very different tone and becomes a lot less funny and much, much darker.
• 16:15
  And then at about 4: And that's really the tipping point.
• 16:17
  And then at about 4: But I'll say that this does not strike me as like, not dark.
• 16:21
  And then at about 4: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
• 16:21
  And then at about 4: It gets darker.
• 16:28
  And then at about 4: On first watch that may seem hard to believe because in the first two episodes, there are shocking, brutal battles between Mussolini's fascists and their political enemies, the socialists.
• 16:37
  And then at about 4: Like, in an early scene, Mussolini's eating dinner at a restaurant with his crew of thugs when all around them diners defiantly rise and start singing the socialist anthem.
• 16:50
  And then at about 4: With a nod, Mussolini sends his thugs to beat them senseless.
• 16:57
  And then at about 4: One of them knocks a guy to the ground and kicks him viciously again and again and again.
• 17:12
  And then at about 4: "Savage, fluid, necessary" Mussolini says, gazing directly into the camera.
• 17:17
  And then at about 4: The way violence should always be.
• 17:21
  And then at about 4: It'll triumph.
• 17:27
  And then at about 4: To me, in this first two episodes, the portrayal of violence really struck me because it's excessive in a way that it's not in, I would say in a lot of your work.
• 17:38
  And then at about 4: It seems, it's like a real choice to sort of like have us confront it.
• 17:43
  And then at about 4: Why that choice and what led you to that?
• 17:46
  And then at about 4: I think violence well, for a start, a lot of the Italians don't understand how violent he was.
• 17:53
  And then at about 4: And to an extent, one was making it for an Italian audience.
• 17:57
  And then at about 4: - Really?
• 17:57
  And then at about 4: - Yeah.
• 17:59
  And then at about 4: Giorgia Meloni came to power during pre-production.
• 18:03
  And then at about 4: At one point, we were going to have all the direct address stuff spoken in English, and the dialog between characters in Italian.
• 18:11
  And then at about 4: - Wow.
• 18:11
  And then at about 4: - And then...
• 18:13
  And then at about 4: the morning after her election victory, I realized that I wanted every single Italian to understand every single word.
• 18:21
  And then at about 4: But a lot of the Italians don't kind of understand how violent his rise was, and they all thought it was democratic, you know, that he won the election.
• 18:31
  And then at about 4: So therefore he was, you know, chosen by the people, which wasn't really the case.
• 18:37
  And then at about 4: So I felt it was important to, to really stress just how violent he and his, you know, fascists were.
• 18:45
  And then at about 4: I feel like this is not just endemic to Italy.
• 18:48
  And then at about 4: I feel like there's a lot of I mean, just, like, casually, I hear this on, you know, many sides of the political spectrum.
• 18:54
  And then at about 4: It's like, "You know, there's going to be a civil war." And like, do you know what that means?
• 18:57
  And then at about 4: It means that the guy down the street is going to try to kill your kid.
• 19:00
  And then at about 4: - Like, this is for real.
• 19:00
  And then at about 4: - Yeah.
• 19:02
  And then at about 4: I'm wondering if that's the kind of thing that was going through your head.
• 19:04
  And then at about 4: Very much so.
• 19:04
  And then at about 4: It's real and it's terrifying.
• 19:07
  And then at about 4: But also, they had a very different relationship with violence.
• 19:10
  And then at about 4: I mean, coming out of the First World War, they and, you know, the futurist Marinetti and so on, they had this idea that violence was somehow cleansing.
• 19:22
  And then at about 4: I think we have now post the Second World War and post the Holocaust, have a very different relationship with violence.
• 19:31
  And then at about 4: - How so?
• 19:31
  And then at about 4: - For us, I feel like violence is unequivocally bad.
• 19:37
  And then at about 4: There's a line drawn there.
• 19:39
  And then at about 4: Whereas I think for them and he speaks about it.
• 19:43
  And then at about 4: D'Annunzio also talked about it.
• 19:45
  And then at about 4: There's this sense in which life was a bit cheaper and that violence was somehow a purifying force or could be rational violence, so to speak, was cleansing.
• 19:59
  And then at about 4: You think that's less so now?
• 20:00
  And then at about 4: - I mean, like, I get what you're saying.
• 20:00
  And then at about 4: - Yeah, I do.
• 20:03
  And then at about 4: I think we have a different relationship with violence now.
• 20:06
  And then at about 4: Do you think that maybe, like, as some of these countries go towards full right wing, that maybe is this pie in the sky task or will we avoid it?
• 20:15
  And then at about 4: - Avoid the violence?
• 20:15
  And then at about 4: - Yeah.
• 20:16
  And then at about 4: No, no, of course not.
• 20:19
  And then at about 4: You know, and I think that what's shocking I mean, listen, I'm not an ethicist or a politician or, you know, so what do I know?
• 20:26
  And then at about 4: But the-- I think the further we get from the events of the Second World War and from these events, the more we're able to forget.
• 20:36
  And then at about 4: So it feels important to remember.
• 20:40
  And then at about 4: To that extent was there something when you're researching this and you're making this movie, were there mistakes that you saw made back then that maybe you feel like we could avoid now?
• 20:53
  And then at about 4: Yeah, people didn't speak up.
• 20:55
  And then at about 4: People thought that someone else would deal with it, that it's not really my responsibility.
• 21:00
  And then at about 4: And in fact, the very, you know, the very last scene of the last episode is really about our collective responsibility and that he didn't exist and a void.
• 21:13
  And then at about 4: And there were those that actually actively supported him, certainly.
• 21:17
  And then at about 4: But there were also, you know, a vast majority who just didn't speak, didn't respond, didn't speak up, didn't fight back.
• 21:25
  And then at about 4: And even the socialists, in government.
• 21:27
  And then at about 4: When there still were some, they would stage a protest, and the protest would be that they would stage a walkout and they'd walk out and they'd stand on the steps and they'd sort of wave their placards, but they weren't there for the crucial votes, and they weren't there for the debates, and they weren't there to raise their voices, you know?
• 21:47
  And then at about 4: I don't think I'm giving too much away by saying that the last word of the entire eight hours is silencio.
• 22:00
  And then at about 4: Joe Wright, he directed the seriesMussolini: Son of the Century.
• 22:04
  And then at about 4: It's showing now on MUBI in the US, Canada and many more countries.
• 22:07
  And then at about 4: Check the show notes for details on how to watch.
• 22:10
  And then at about 4: Meanwhile, follow us for more episodes about great films and great filmmakers.
• 22:14
  And then at about 4: Next time I travel to a modern day place where some filmmakers are grappling with an authoritarian regime right now and making great movies anyway.
• 22:22
  And then at about 4: It's my journey to Turkey and the cinema scene of its main city, Istanbul.
• 22:26
  And then at about 4: Don't miss it.
• 22:27
  And then at about 4: And hey, if you love the show, do leave a five star review wherever you listen.
• 22:30
  And then at about 4: It helps others find and love us too.
• 22:32
  And then at about 4: Also, if you've got questions, comments or tickets to see The Chemical Brothers, you just want to send my way, our email is podcast@mubi.com And now let's roll credits.
• 22:42
  And then at about 4: This episode was hosted, written and edited by me, Rico Gagliano.
• 22:45
  And then at about 4: Ciara McEniff is our producer with help from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk.
• 22:49
  And then at about 4: Stephen Colon mastered this episode.
• 22:49
  And then at about 4: Our end credit music is by Yuri Suzuki.
• 22:53
  And then at about 4: Thanks this week to everyone at the American Cinematheque and the Los Feliz 3 cinema.
• 22:58
  And then at about 4: The show is executive produced by me along with Efe Çakarel Daniel Kasman and Michael Tacca.
• 23:03
  And then at about 4: And finally, to watch the best in cinema subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com Thanks for listening, go watch some movies, right after you register to vote.