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Mental Health Engagement with Nick Elston · Financial Planner Life Podcast

0:04
SPEAKER_02: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
0:17
SPEAKER_02: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: So check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: Today's guest is Nick Alston.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: And Nick today talks to us about mental health engagement.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Nick is one of the highest profile and leading inspirational speakers on the lived experience of mental health.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: And his work is where mental health meets personal development.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: He works with the world's leading organizations to create a truly unique engagement experience to support mental health strategies within the workforce.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Because you can have all the well-being and mental health initiatives you like.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: But unless you get engagement in them, absolutely nothing changes.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: He's worked with American Express, the BBC, Bird and Bird, Deloitte, just to name a few.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: And today he shares his story, his journey, why he does what he does on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoy it.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: And if you would like to find out more, check out nickelston.com to get the loading.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Nick, thanks so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life Podcast.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: How are you?
1:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm very good, Sam.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh, very good indeed.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: Nice to be here.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: No problem at all.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've been trying, haven't we?
1:45
SPEAKER_00: We've been trying to get hold of I think there's a lesson in that.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: We'll probably go into that, Sam.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: But like life gets in the way sometimes.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: But like I said, I believe you end up kind of seeing the right people, doing the right things at the right time in the grand scheme of things.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: You don't see it at the time.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: But we're destined to do this today.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps an over-reliance upon technology sometimes.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, there is that too, to be fair.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: And an unplanned hospital visit wasn't in the books as well.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: But there we go.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: We cannot control the uncontrollable.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: Well, you can't, exactly that.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: Nick, fantastic.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: Look, I absolutely um love talking about mental health and well-being.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's an area that I'm very passionate um about.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, I am a business owner.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: I am somebody that's lived and had a lived experience of going through um my own personal battles with my mental health.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: And as I've alluded to on previous podcasts, addiction as well, and how that you know that impacted my mental health.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: And also over the years, seeing the changes to how we talk about mental health and well-being personally, and also within the workspace, uh, in the workplace.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, there's a huge amount that's still, I think, to be done.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: So people like yourself, motivational speakers, people that have had that lived experience yourself of going through um, you know, mental health uh problems or mental health um issues, and then changing your life, becoming a motivational speaker and inspiring others to do the same.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: So, really, really keen to get you on today, really keen to talk about what you've been up to see, what you're doing, and um hopefully learn a little bit more.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Sam.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Thank you with me everywhere, Girls.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: And that's a great introduction.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for sharing that.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like I said, it's it's massively kind of undervalued that the power of being able to share lived experience because to me, it's the perfect vehicle vehicle to drive engagement in the solutions and initiatives.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm not there to fix anyone, I'm not there as a counselor, practitioner, or medical professional by any stretch.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's my upfront contract to my audience that I'm not here to fix you.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: This isn't a group therapy session.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: But actually, I think the saddest thing I ever see is people waiting for permission to reach out for help or to at least have that conversation with themselves, that they're not in the right place at the time.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: So, actually, the amount of self-awareness that you've just shown in that very small kind of uh sample of Texas Sen is huge, huge.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: So well done, you too.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, you're absolutely you're absolutely right there.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: And it it takes time, doesn't it, to be able to build that confidence to be able to open up and speak about it without entering into this worry and fear of what other people think.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's taken me a long time to get there.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: And there were years where, like a lot of people, I sat in my own head and tried to work things out, and I couldn't work it out in my own head.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: I had to be able to articulate it in a way that wasn't sounding like I was coming across as, I don't know, well, I was worried.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: I was worried what people thought simply doesn't matter how it comes across.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: It's it's just that instant worry and anxiety in your head of am I going to lose my job?
4:36
SPEAKER_02: Am I gonna lose my friends?
4:38
SPEAKER_02: Am I gonna lose my friends and family, my wife if I talk about this?
4:41
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's uh not just something that men go, you know, men are very prideful around that sort of thing.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: And obviously, men, women, children, teenagers, isn't like a it's everybody, isn't it?
4:52
SPEAKER_00: It is, and it's compounded by those things.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, it's not exclusively men, but actually especially men.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: We've all been told of kind of my generation, your generation, that man up, stiff up, stiff up a lip.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: We don't talk about our stuff.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of, I mean, I come from um, like I said, it's a uh a family environment, like from a naval kind of family environment.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: And my granddad wouldn't have talked about his stuff, but he would have been through a lot of experiences.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Now, um, so I think for me, it's very much kind of looking at the fact that there's other drivers to this too.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, financial services, financial planning, financial industry generally is one of the last bastions of traditional business.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: And therefore, we still have the overhang of we don't talk about our stuff.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: We still have the overhang that we're going to be dismissed or judged or uh ridiculed when we talk about our stuff.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: And we wonder why it's such a taboo subject.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: And even like you said, even though the culture is changing, it's really not changing fast enough.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: But there's also other things to throw into the mix as well, such as you have gender and culture.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: And I do a lot of work in communities that are or sections of the world that I'm not part of.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: However, I can understand the pressures of um that kind of generational and conditioning of not being able to share what's really going on with us.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: We've been brought up to believe that self-care is selfish, so we'll feel guilty when we put ourselves before anything or anyone.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: And even when I say to audiences, because actually, this has been recorded on a Friday morning.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: This afternoon, I have my weekly counseling and therapy session.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: This is not Hallelujah, this guy's cured.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: I manage my stuff daily to varying degrees of success as well.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: So um, it's important to say that this is a continued kind of journey.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: But when I talk about counseling and therapy in a UK environment, so my UK audiences, they kind of get that reaction like, this guy's a freak, he's just told us he's still in therapy.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: Whereas if I say that to my US audiences, because it's really grown since the pandemic of a global reach, US audiences say, Well, everybody else has therapy too, beardy boy, get on with it, kind of thing.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: Because culturally, it's completely the other way.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: So there's so many variables thrown into the mix as to where we are in terms of sharing our stuff.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think the true driver is emotional leadership, is being able to convey emotion personally and professionally.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Because even though most of our stuff, like me and you, Sam, are we done in a professional environment, it's absolutely about us as humans.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: It's the same you that shows up here than it is the one that goes home later on.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: So we need to understand that there's there should be no disconnect.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: It should be just you as a human, humans are human conversations.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, I agree.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: Nick, so why not start off just by sort of giving the listeners an overview of your, you know, of your of your story, really, you know, how it all started, and obviously how it's now, you're now in a in a position where you promote transformational change, mental health, well-being, awareness within the workplaces, but it had to start somewhere.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: So Nick, just tell us a little bit about your journey and where it started.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: I did.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: The really short answer is a breakdown outside of a premiere, and but the butt of the backstory to that is so I had um mental illness in my childhood.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: I had obsessive compulsive disorder.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I I'm 43 now.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, don't judge.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: I can see the gray in the beard on the on the thing right now.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: But I'm 40 now, mate.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm 40.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: So I had a hard life.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: So now um it's uh back in the day, so even at that age, yeah, the even though the solutions and the awareness weren't as higher in OCD than it is now, um, again, the only course of therapy was eight weeks of talking therapy.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Now, as you know from what I've just said, I'm very open about I love talking therapy, I think it's very powerful, but it wasn't a fix for OCD.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: So as I got older into my young adulthood, um, it dealt with some of the obsession, some of the compulsion, what it left me with was something called generalized anxiety disorder or GAD.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, statistically, that's more common, but less commonly known.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's where you consistently run on high anxiety or high nervous energy to the extent that, and people that that get this will get this, that you wake up one morning that you don't feel anxious about something, you feel like you have to create or find something to be anxious about, or you can't focus, you can't function, you feel like you missed the ball.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: But also it affects things like self-esteem and confidence and courage or conviction.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: So you'll end up saying uh yes to people you want to say no to all the time.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: As you said, people pleasing are fantastically effective mechanism, utterly destructive.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: I know you're spoiled then, utterly destructive, but fantastically effective.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, but also maybe you constantly catastrophize your future events and endeavors and decisions and relationships, or you ruminate on the ones that have gone before and you feel guilty and guilt and paranoia and anxiety.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Feel it now, it's a real heady mix.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So, through through education, as a young adult trying to survive with mental illness was a challenge, but I built this kind of ecosystem that was it was absolute comfort zone.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: But we all know the comfort zone is uncomfortable.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: Toxic relationships are comfort zones.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: It's easier to stay in a position of pain and frustration fighting than it is to do something about it.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: So, because I created this that worked so well, I took it into my corporate life.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: So I was always client-facing, I wasn't in the financial uh world initially, um, but I was always client-facing.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: So, those who uh who are watching this or listening to this who are client-facing anxiety, sales, and paranoia, powerful combo.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, but also I was I was running on that high uh high burnout.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: So my output was constantly exceeding my energy.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was always in earlier than I had to be, always away later than I needed to be, always truly present physically somewhere, but never really present anywhere.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Because what I've learned is anxiety is regret from the past or fear of the future.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Very rarely is it in the day, and that's where I wasn't living.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: So if I was at work, I wanted to be at home.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: If I was at home, I wanted to be somewhere else.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: And I was always always thinking too far back or forward.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, there's just two reasons why I got to the point I did in 2012.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: I think the first one is masking behavior, but I tried to be what people wanted to see in me.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I tried to be what situations demanded of me, but I sure didn't downshow myself because when we show ourselves, that fear again kicks in that we're going to be dismissed or judged on loved as a man in 2012, especially, and before that.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but fear is very often that false evidence appearing real.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: It's created, it's we assume the outcome.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: We're hardwired to look for danger in that sense.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: The second reason is because, and and you're I guarantee everybody listening to this will get this at some point in their lives.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: If I ask you to get your calendar out now, your diary out now, is there a part of your day-to-day and every day that's exclusively reserved for you, ring fenced for you to rest and recover and recharge just half an hour?
11:35
SPEAKER_00: And I bet you there isn't.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: So ring fence it as if it were your biggest client or your biggest asset, because you absolutely are, by the way.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's the problem.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: We don't do that, so therefore, we can only run for so long until we stop.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: And I stopped in 2012.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: And in 2012, I've been to a business networking meeting.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: So, for those who have haven't had the pleasure of business networking, you go along, pretend to be happy, sell some stuff, ideally, and eat some breakfast.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the format of most networking meetings I've been to.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: It was a beautiful uh sunny morning on a Friday morning uh in North Somerset in Porterstead, it's not too far from us.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: And um I left that meeting, and and basically I sat in the car and I just shut down.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: It people feel that breakdown is quite an angry thing, like a ah kind of thing.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: It's not for me.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: The experience was actually the worst thing, I guarantee you, Sam, is feeling absolutely nothing at all.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't feeling pain.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: To cut off feeling hate, a cut off feeling love, or to cut off feeling bad, a cut off feeling good.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: You can't have one without the other.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: So you end up living in this self-contained numbness.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: You end up living in the state of your own creation where you don't feel anything at all.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's when people feel lost or they lose hope or the hope of something better.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: That's where truly people start to become quite in a dangerous place.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: And when they're getting too dark about this, it was either going to be something that had to was going to consume me, or I had to let it out.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: And fortunately, to this day, I still came out blessing.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: It's a real sliding doors moment.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: I I let it out two weeks later.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I went to the same meeting in a professional environment and never done anything like it before.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: And I told people what had happened, and not just them, but what happened to me before.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: And I as I said, for me, it was going to be like a a death by police kind of blaze of glory moment that when I done my bit, I was just gonna be like starfish on the floor when the dust has settled, kind of thing.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: But 100% that day changed my life forever.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: And this is why I'm such an ambassador for vulnerability now, proactive vulnerability and emotional leadership, is because by telling people the truth with capital T's, we're not used to hearing the truth.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, that especially coming from a six foot four, 20 year old stone guy talking about mental illness and a breakdown of stuff, that people that are known for years, like people I considered friends, immediately started telling me about their challenges, weirdly, because it built a bridge of trust that that kind of we're all in this together mentality.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: But people started talking to me about uh their challenges around sexuality and gender and race and grief and addiction and loss and abuse and all these other things that we don't experience, we just don't talk about.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's for me where I first started to see the power of being able to not just be vulnerable, because it has to be said, if you're not showing the world your true self, then how do you expect the world to engage with you?
14:20
SPEAKER_00: But it also really highlighted the true impact as I went forward from that point of mental health challenges, is its effect on our sense of belonging.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: It it kind of makes us feel that we don't deserve to be any better, to aspire to any more, be any greater than where we are right now.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: So it keeps us there.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that's why it's so aligned with other kind of global challenges, I guess, in life.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: But that's kind of the starting point for me.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: I never wanted to be solution focused because the solutions and initiatives are there.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: That they may be slow to access at times, but they are there.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: But for me, the the gap was engagement.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: You can have every initiative in place that you want as an organization, as as a as a society, but unless you get the engagement, absolutely nothing changes.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: So for me, uh, and I'll say just before we hit record on this, that the saddest thing I ever see is kind of people went for permission to reach out for help, or they don't know how to reach out for help because it's just not part of their DNA in that sense that we would that's how they've been conditioned not to talk about stuff.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the rooms got bigger, the audiences got bigger, uh, and the rest, as they say, is history.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: And along the way, I've I've started to help other people tell their stories as well.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Because look, I'll be honest, Sam, and I've I've never really shared this before, but uh this there is an exit kind of date on what I do now in terms of the mental health field.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Because uh being a big empathic guy, it can really take it out if you work it in this space, uh, having big conversations all the time.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: As much as I love what I do, uh my counselor calls me a wounded healer.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: You give and give and give.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you need to so for me, I think that the the future is helping other people to tell that tell their stories for me.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: But at the moment, that's what I'm doing for myself as well.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I want to try to do is to pioneer a generation of people coming through behind me telling their stories that's relevant to this time and that kind of stuff.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, and and and that's led me to, I mean, the financial kind of sector, I guess, I fell into through, I hear that a lot in your industry, actually, the financial planning industry is that fell into financial.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, the I spoke it, I was a keynote speaker for account text in the accounting industry in 2017.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, and on the back of that, it was the first time they put anything on around mental health from that kind of non-solution focused aspect.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: And it was genuinely people were like hanging through the windows on the auditorium trying to get through, sat on the floor.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: And people had this real desire to engage in something which was emotionally led and purpose-led, but again, struggled with being able to convey that themselves.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I got picked up by the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing, lots of different organizations that do great work in that space.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: I started writing for the Institute of Chartered Accountants and um started to then work with other businesses in the financial planning community, including nucleus and and and globally as well.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's given me a great insight on where kind of financial planners are at and financial people are at throughout this too, on all levels.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: So, right from CFOs right the way through.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I've loved the journey, as I said, I've loved the journey and it's brought me to your door today.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: So I'll leave it at that.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for sharing that.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: That was fantastic to hear about your, you know, your journey, um, how it all started.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: And as, you know, as I'm going through it, Nick, and one thing you're saying there is about getting the message out and getting engagement.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: And the big part of getting the message out and getting engaged in engagement is identification.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, how can somebody identify?
17:51
SPEAKER_02: How can somebody engage or seek the help if they can't identify with the person who's talking about it?
17:56
SPEAKER_02: And when you were talking, then I could identify with everything.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if I was, let's rewind back 10 years ago to Sam of 10 years ago, who went through who was going through everything, well, starting that journey, so you know, going into the world of generalized anxiety disorder without a shadow of a doubt, had that for such a huge long period of my life, like just thought it was that was the norm, that was what I was doing.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: You know, if I'd have sat down with someone like you, Nick, and you expressed and explained to me how you were feeling and what you've gone through and your lived experience and how you now can identify what those thoughts and feelings are, as being generalized anxiety disorder, for instance, I'd have been like, wow, oh my God, that's that's me.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: That's me.
18:41
SPEAKER_02: And I need that, I need that connection.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: And it's the it's the identification which is key.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: Um and without shadow of a doubt, there'd be people here listening to this and go, oh my god, I feel exactly the same way, and maybe never even thought about generalized anxiety because we hear anxiety and we think about something completely different.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: But this is the this is the power of lived experience, and thank you for sharing that.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: I think that we hear we can hear and see and research the the kind of the medical diagnosis all the time, and and that's absolutely crucial.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong, this is absolutely crucial.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: But for me, the engagement comes from that kind of community and commonality of actually what what's the reality of living through that?
19:22
SPEAKER_00: Actually, how do you feel when you're going through that?
19:23
SPEAKER_00: And you don't see that because obviously, you firstly it's a very subjective experience.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Some people may really understand where I'm coming from, people won't.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: And um, but even when it comes to things like belonging, that that's why kind of the mental health conversation is more than just kind of mental health and mental illness, really.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: It becomes more like personal development, I guess.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: If we're not living a life or running a business or having an education on our terms, then whose terms are we doing those things on?
19:48
SPEAKER_00: And the answer is will be the you that's driven by fear.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Because even though it's it's very true that everything that you've ever said and everyone that you've ever been and everything that you've ever done has led to exactly where you are right now, that is the undeniable truth.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: It's what you do next that counts.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: But personally and professionally, you design a future based on fear.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: You you design a future based on your perceived failures of the past.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't know how that feels and how that looks in reality, how can you start to, like you said, identify those things?
20:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why it's been the lived experience of coming more into the conversation now.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: So I work alongside GPs and psychologists and people that know what they're doing.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: We all want to achieve the same thing.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Say for panel events, for example, very often I'll be on a panel event alongside these medical professionals, practitioners, and counsellors and stuff.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: We all want to achieve the same things, but people will engage in different ways.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And we we cannot skip the emotional leadership step.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: And especially if it comes from within your industry, your organization, or even your company, that's even more powerful.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: So this isn't just about me going to talk it somewhere.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: This is about me encouraging other people within a sector, within an organization to tell their stories because they will listen to their peers.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, if Sam can do that, then I can do that as well.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we want to try and create a culture of positive change.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: Nate, when you were when you had that breakdown, you know, in Porter's Heads and you came out of the meeting and you had that breakdown.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: At that point in time, what did you do about your employment?
21:17
SPEAKER_02: Did you feel comfortable to talk to your employer about what you'd actually been through?
21:21
SPEAKER_02: Because you were confident enough to open up, probably in a space of like, I don't know what I have to open up here.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: I'm in empowered to open up here.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: I had an epiphany or whatever, I just can't hold it in anymore.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: But how did you feel about your employers finding out about your your breakdown, for instance?
21:36
SPEAKER_00: I I still don't think I did things the right way.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think on that morning for two or three hours I couldn't move, but then I just basically kind of fobbed it when I came back to that kind of office environment.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: I have mentioned to them we have to remember it was a completely different time at that point.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think um I did have that conversation that look, I am struggling for want of a better word at the moment.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: So just be aware that.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: If I'm a bit erratic, or then just I was more open with my family.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of my challenges were around obsessive compulsive disorder.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So um it's important to recognize these things don't really go away in that sense.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: That they're kind of like Indiana James mining cart tracks, they're dusty and cobweb, they're always there.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And if I'm running too low energy, if I get shunted back or something big happens, that's always a risk for me.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would say things like, because mine was family focused, um, I would say things like if I ask you for um reassurance once uh on something, tell me once.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: If I ask you twice, don't reply.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: So what you're trying to do is create the conditions, you're trying to create the rules where you can start to uh get that success yourself.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Now, I would do things differently now.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: I would actually reach out for help more.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I did was I immersed myself in things like personal development, and it's important to say, by the way, that's really overwhelming because every book you read wants you to do it their way, and there's no one way, there's no one fixel.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: What I would do is to listen to like amazing shows like yours, to uh listen to podcasts, watch videos, listen to loads, read loads, and build your own playbook.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: If there's one line that jumps out, just build your own playbook.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how I work my way back, which is why not one thing has meant has worked for me, but a collection of things have worked for me.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: And I've made a lot of mistakes along the way as well, and probably will continue to do so till the day I die, to be honest.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: But but there we go.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think for me that that kind of I would do things differently now.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: I think that there's there's certainly more of an infrastructure in place to support people now.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: In the workplace, yeah.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: I think generally really.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: I think, but again, I think it's the speed of access is the problem.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: So um, and I guess this comes down to there is a society or societal disconnect, I think, when it comes out of the workplace.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: Because if you work in a large organization, the truth of the matter is actually you can access help really, really quickly uh through things like your employee assistance programs and stuff.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: But outside of an organization, it can be slower to access.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So I try to, well, I make it a habit, but I try to encourage other people to make it a habit to get a trusted network of people around you from different things.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: And as I mentioned earlier on, different communities.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: So us being Bristol based, uh get good at knowing the local organizations like off the record or work with students around mental orders and stuff.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: And um, I work with uh black and ethnic minority community groups, LGBTQ plus community groups, not because I'm part of those communities, but because I can use my voice and champion them.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Um also I'm not naive enough to think that anybody that comes to speak to me is going to be a middle-aged white guy with a cap on.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: So I try to I try to make it a passion to get to know as many support avenues as possible.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: So that if somebody comes to me and says, Right, okay, I need some help at the moment, I've I'm as well prepped as possible as a non-medical professional to help them.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: Getting out there and speaking to as many people as possible and listening to as many theories as you possibly can around how to better yourself and self-improvement.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: A lot of the books out there are pretty much telling you the same thing, but they're dressing it up in a completely different way.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: And that's a good thing because not everybody learns the same way and identifies in exactly the same way.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: Someone could read the chimp paradox and think it's absolutely fantastic.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, whereas somebody else might have to read the big book of AA or something and find that amazing, you know, you know, whatever their personal issues and personal problems are, how it's expressed and explained is how you interpret it.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: You have to kind of get out there, look around, start to listen to podcasts.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: I mean, when when I was going through a lot of my discovery about myself and managing my personal development, when I came to the point of knowing that actually, Sam, this is never going away, and you have to do this daily, this has to be part of your life.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: That was when I started listening to lots more podcasts.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: And I listened to the likes of Rich Rolls, who's a um an ultra runner in America.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: Um he's a great guy.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, but also what's brilliant about Rich Rolls is not only is he an ultra runner, which I love running, but he has some amazing guests on there that all speak about all levels of mental health and some really big hitters on there as well, like Dave Goggins and, you know, David Goggins and all that lot on there.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: But he's also a 12-stepper.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: He's somebody who's also gone through that lived experience that I've gone through.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: You know, he's a professional person, had his life sorted, but he couldn't sort of, you know, he couldn't get he couldn't stop drinking and he couldn't, you know, you know, he's he was into drugs and all that type of thing.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: But on his podcast, he talks about that all the time.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: The guests he gets on there are really, really interesting.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: But it's not just hyper focused on that.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: He looks at things outside of it as well, and how to how you can better improve, not just by thinking about one clear thing and that's it.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: And I and I love that.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: Variety absolutely helps massively when you're looking to to change your um change your behaviors, really.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: It does.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: And I I love that.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: I'll be checking it out as well.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's really important to recognise that that when we when we feel that we need help, we we automatically look externally.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And the the last place we go actually is maybe the first place we go is internally.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: I think we have all the answers we'll ever need.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: We just need to ask ourselves the right questions and then move the hell out of our own way.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, because we do, we do get in our own way.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Now, we mentioned alcohol there.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Now, I I choose, I have a an unhealthy relationship with alcohol.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: I didn't realise that uh until March 2019.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: I was I was rushed into into South Mead Hospital, not far from us, um, and the consultant said to me, Mr.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Elston, you've got a very big heart.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: So that was not a good thing.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, turns out there's a hereditary heart condition, and the medication that they put me on to correct it meant I couldn't drink alcohol.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Now I I didn't even think about it because I could I could go for weeks without drinking alcohol.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think by society's definition of alcoholism, that you would be drinking consistently.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: But what I found was if I had a great day, I'd have a pint or a glass of wine.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: And there's an obsessive nature to me as well, of course, that I would go for 10.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh, if I had a bad day, I'd exactly the same.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: But I could still go weeks without drinking, so it's okay.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was only then did I realise how damaging it was.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: I started to sleep better, I was less intense socially to mask social anxiety.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: I would drink a lot more than I would any anybody would else on the night.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: And things like so it's that those kind of questions that you wouldn't necessarily attribute them to mental health or personal development.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: But if I ask myself genuinely, is alcohol good for me?
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: And now it's a it's a choice that I don't drink alcohol.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: But instead of feeling like I'm missing out, I've made it a passion to drink every zero percent option I can find and test them and qualify them.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: And uh, and that's what I like to do.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: And but now that again, that's become a thing, when we're open about this stuff, it's become a thing.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: The the Nucleus Roadshow I did recently um within your uh industry, um, that they sent me a big kind of uh zero percent beer uh calendar, advent calendar, uh, which I thought was a brilliant gift, but it's so personal because they could obviously listen into what I was saying and that kind of stuff.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: And so I think for me, it's finding an emotional connection to the thing that you want to create positive change to.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, and as opposed to feeling that you're missing out, you're kind of feeling that you're discovering something else.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think I try to apply that logic to a lot of stuff in life.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: And I think some of the things we can do to ourselves to try to avoid pain and seek pleasure, like drinking alcohol.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: Same as me.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't, you know, when I describe, I never just I never describe myself as like an alcoholic or something because it's like I wasn't, you know, I wasn't the definitional term of an alcoholic.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: I, like you, have an obsessive mind.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: You know, if I'm going to put one beer in me, I'm gonna want more.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: It's as simple as that, because it's pleasure, you know, whatever, you know, that's chocolate, if it's, you know, anything which is pleasure-based, I'm gonna want more of it because that's that's what I'm like.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: I don't get up in the morning and think, oh, I really want a beer, or you know, I'm on a park bench or whatever, you know.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: There might be a few all-night rave as well.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: I might have done that, but you know, but I'm not that person.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: And that's not just to say that, oh, they're a completely different person to me.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: I can identify with these people of what they're going through because it's like, you know, you know, there's different scales, isn't there, to anxiety.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: There's different scales to depression, there's different scales to addiction, obsessive, compulsive disorder, there's different scales, and we're all on this different spectrum, a bit like autism, for example, isn't it?
29:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're all different levels of this spectrum, but it's about understanding the similarities and not focusing on the differences.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: And by doing that, is that identification which then brings you in and go, well, okay, well, maybe they maybe there's something in this.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: And I loved what you said about the the analogy around Indiana Jones and the old rickety, you know, um rail railroads, because it's exactly what I say.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: When I when I sit down with somebody and I explain to them about the neurological pathways and how you, you know, if you've got uh your brain has got these motorways in it, right?
30:28
SPEAKER_02: If you're used to years and years and years of doing something a certain way, because your brain thinks that's the quickest way to get the pleasure it requires to stop you from feeling sad or whatever it might well be, that neurological pathway doesn't go away.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: It stays there.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: It's like a motorway that's got loads of dust and brambles and you know, uh anything built over it.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: No cars go down there anymore.
30:48
SPEAKER_02: But the way you change your habits and the way you start changing, doing more positive things, working on your mental health, personal development, you start to create these new neurological pathways, but they're quite weaker.
30:58
SPEAKER_02: You can always go back to those old motorways.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: If you just get a brush out, sweep up all the leaves, and off you go, bang, and it's there.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: It's always there.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: And that's one thing that I learned because in I had it recently with coffee.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: Coffee's, you know, coffee is a massively psychoactive substance.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: It can hugely alter your moods, right?
31:15
SPEAKER_02: And for someone like me who can be up and down, I've got to be very, very careful with it.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: And when I started drinking coffee again, and every single day, bang, I was on the coffee, I was on the coffee train again.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: And God, stopping that was really, really hard.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: But I went back to it because I thought, well, I could definitely drink coffee again, couldn't I, after a year?
31:30
SPEAKER_02: Of course I can.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: But instantly, bang, I was in, I was in it, obsessed with it, like obsessed with it, you know?
31:37
SPEAKER_02: It was like, it's always there, isn't it?
31:39
SPEAKER_02: I think if you're somebody who suffers with obsessive compulsive disorders, um, suffers with a certain um thinking habits or thinking addictions, we can somebody can be addicted to negative thinking, then those those neurological pathways are always going to be there.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: So it's about acceptance of the fact that this is a lifelong problem, whatever your problem actually is, and now's the time to actually start working on it.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: And also dedicating time, as you said in your diary to daily working these, the you know, your program or daily working your um your your whatever it is you're doing to help yourself feel better feel better, whether it be journaling or whatever it might well be.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: So I liked what you said there.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: And again, identification, a lot of that range true for me.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, one thing I'd ask you is in the workplace itself.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: So, Nick, you're you know, you're an inspirational speaker, you you've moved away from that past corporate environment, okay?
32:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, now you're going into these corporate environments, talking about mental health, bringing it to the public within there, and hopefully getting some identification and driving change.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about that then.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about some of the great things you're doing with some of the financial planning firms, financial services forms.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: What actually is it you do?
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, I on on the I guess on the outset, the most of what I do is to go in to deliver uh keynote talks or or lunch and learns or webinar seminars around the lived experience angle of my journey, but also some tools and tips I've used along the way that have worked and not worked.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: And kind of like we're doing today, really.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'm throwing a lot of stuff out there, what's kind of what's been going on in my world, and and as is already been proven already, there's bits that will resonate with you because actually it's a personal experience for you, or that's a challenge for you right now.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of what I do.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: So that initial talk that I work in organizations, that's that's it's done as kind of like um a test, a gauge to see where everybody is on a certain uh in a certain way around mental health.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: I I think one of the other things that I do right from the outset is to redefine the term mental health, because mental health is as a term causes the damage.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: So mental health is just a neutral state, like physical health.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, whether it's good or bad, that's a whole different thing.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: But we need to start to consider mental health like as a muscle, something that we can exercise and work on and nurture and nourish and care for every day, um, and give ourselves the best chance of being smarter, stronger, happier, more successful, whatever that means to you.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, knowing that stuff will blindside you.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: So, what I try to give people in these talks is the reality of the situation is knowing actually stuff like bad stuff is always going to happen.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: Actually, change is constantly the biggest anxiety trigger in every environment I work in.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, because it's not just kind of corporates, but also in prisons and schools I work in as well.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: Prison's a lot easier in schools, by the way.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: Um so parents will understand it.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: So with um with this kind of uh talk that is done as an awareness piece, the the call to action at the end of these talks is then to actively signpost to the solutions within the organization, or if they haven't got that in place, solute uh signpost to solutions outside.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: So I work with lots of different mental health organizations as a champion or as an ambassador, that kind of stuff.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: Now, after that, uh on some clients like KFC, for example, I'm the host and creator of KFC TV.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: I was built for that, six foot four, 20 oddstone guy, a fried chicken TV station host.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was built for that.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: I trained all my life for that.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: That would be tricky for me, I'd say.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: So that um so I basically we we do this kind of video podcast series where uh that goes out to all of their employees around well-being, different elements of well-being.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: I bring in medical professionals and practitioners to talk about the important stuff, absolutely.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: But my piece is the engagement is to get other people in.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna talk about grief, for example, as a theme, it's heavy, it's essential, but it's heavy.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: So we'll do that right in the middle.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: Then I brought in a laughter yoga guy to do us a bit on the on the end, the chief people officer of KFC, we don't chat about what they're doing within the company.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: You make it engaging.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, so after that initial tilt within organizations, getting back to the question, that's kind of what I do, is it then gets tailored to fit whatever need they have.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: So I'm often used as like a poll survey.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: So if people come to me afterwards and away from the event or at the event, and they uh say, for example, like financial well-being was high on those problems that people are coming to me about, then I'll feed that back to the that HR team anonymously, and then they focus their initiatives on that.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: So very often I can actually just be a one hit kind of thing, or maybe a yearly hit kind of thing.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, but sometimes it goes into other things where I bring in solution-focused people with me.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: So that drives the engagement.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: That is the engagement piece.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: The engagement comes from, and I had it this morning just before I come on to the call, that I spoke for a large kind of bank in South Wales recently, and uh somebody just really opened up, said, uh, really enjoyed your story.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: And this is very much taken two weeks to email.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: So uh I really enjoyed your story.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: I've been sitting on this, and this is the thing, you don't know who's listening and where it's gonna land and when it's gonna land.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed this element.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: This is a challenge that I'm going through right now.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: How do you think I can reach out for help?
36:52
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of what I try to do.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: So people, because I'm I'm not there to fix people or I'm not part of the furniture, they see me as that kind of trusted ear.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: So people will tell me things that uh they wouldn't even tell their GP.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: But then I'll I'll give them that kind of motivation or direction to say, right, okay, this is where you need to focus.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And then they will go and find their own way forward.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: And actually bringing it back almost seamlessly on plan, that's been the main driver of my work in a financial planning community.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: Is actually that your clients will have the same trust and rapport with you than they would their counsellor or their GP.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's no wonder why sometimes you will feel the burden of heavy conversations you have with your clients as well.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's huge.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: How can we look after people who look after people?
37:36
SPEAKER_02: So those individuals, let's bring it back to say financial planning, for example.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: So your piece might well educate that financial planner to look at themselves first.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: Now, perhaps they themselves might have um uh some issues which they haven't resolved or got out, and you're able to help them, I don't see see their part in how they're thinking and all of that kind of thing.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: But I could imagine as well, you probably have to work with some financial planners that that that don't have any mental health problems and may never really ever in their life have it or have ever been around anybody that have had it.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: So, do you then have to sort of educate them on how to position themselves empathetically to understand and how to perhaps sort of um gauge the response from the client as to when and when, when and where they should be able to add value to that client and ask and ask the relevant question without that lived experience, if that makes sense?
38:38
SPEAKER_00: That yeah, actually it's it's the without the medical bit, which is probably the the more, I would say, the more important part to stress from their point of view.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm really glad you asked that because the that can often be the case.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: The financial planner actually may be in a really good position themselves, but what they're finding is they could be, for want of a better word, burdened by the challenges and responsibilities and adversities of their clients.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Because let's not forget, actually, for people outside of the money world generally, money is a huge anxiety trigger.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, you either haven't got enough, you've got too much, or whatever that may be.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: It's just there's so much connected to that, even uh as a conditioning, how relationship with money and how it's it's kind of brought up through our childhood and stuff.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: That um, and it's tied to so much our success, our business, our family.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: And you can feel it when you're talking about it, can't you?
39:26
SPEAKER_00: So, but if you've if you have like 10 clients sharing that conversation with you, even without mental health, but if they throw in mental health challenges into the mix as well, where do you go with that?
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Because actually, as a as a leader, as an entrepreneur, as a planner, you are naturally more inclined to be more sensitive to the client because you want to help them, support them, uh, and help them to kind of flourish.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: So this is what I advise uh kind of financial planners to do, uh, to have better conversations.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: And it's the same one that I have.
39:57
SPEAKER_00: So, as non-medical professionals, how can we have better conversations?
40:01
SPEAKER_00: So, say your client comes to you and says, Right, okay, I'm really struggling with this right now.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so these are the words that I would use.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: Feel free to use your own language, whoever's using this.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: But I would say, as you know, uh no, I'll say thank you very much for for uh coming to me.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you talking to me.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I'm sorry you're experiencing that at the moment.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, as you know, I'm not a solution-focused person, I'm not a fix, I'm not a medical professional.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: However, uh, I will listen to you as much as you want to be listened to, and I'll support you as much as you want to be supported, and then I will actively signpost you to the help that I think would be really good for you right now.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Now, here's the important part.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: Is that okay with you?
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Get their buy-in on that conversation.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: It does so many things.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: It protects you as the planner, as a human.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: It also protects them as well because they know the conditions on what they're engaging with you on.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Now, if they say, no, actually, I need help right now, I'm really struggling, we can go straight away to that kind of point of crisis where you would refer anybody else, you would medically, basically, or internally.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, now, if they say, Yeah, actually, I just want to chat, don't be surprised because in my experience, 90% of the people that come to me, essentially, people just want to be heard and understood, and we don't feel that way anymore.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: It's such a noisy world.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: So what I would say to them is great, okay, well, of course, I'd love to chat to you.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: The first thing I would say is respectfully judge.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Now, it's an amazing thing to see on Instagram, like a nice fluffy picture of don't judge people.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: That's rubbish.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: We all judge everybody.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm judging you, you're judging me, everyone's judging everyone.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: But there's a difference between judging and trying to imprint our beliefs on somebody else.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: So we can listen without judgment.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: We can uh especially right in the moment, with the pandemic and mass wearing and not mass wearing and everything else, that there's so much kind of passive aggression and subjective kind of beliefs going around.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: We don't have to um agree to be able to understand.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: So we actively uh kind of judge, in that sense, respectfully judge, and then we actively listen.
41:57
SPEAKER_00: So put the phone down, put the device away, put uh put your laptop down, truly listen to what they have to say, because the big responsibility here, if it's not to fix them, then it is to listen because it could be the only time in a life that decides to open up to anybody.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: And that's huge.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: That is huge, but it's still not to fix them.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: And when you do that, you can actively signpost because actually, when you listen to them, people will give give them a chance and given a relationship and rapport, they will speak to you about everything.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Now, very often, if you look at GAD, for example, uh and high anxiety, very often people will first say to you the byproduct of the problem.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: So when I feel really, really anxious, and my worst of GAD, I feel defensive or sensitive or insecure, uh, maybe aggressive, even sometimes, those are my tells.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: So those would be the first thing that show.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: So I could say the easier route to a conversation with the planner would be actually the feeling a bit angry at the moment.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: The second question, and the reason why Mental Health UK did this, was an ask twice campaign.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: But how are you feeling?
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Ask an emotionally leading question to get an emotionally leading response.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Emotional leadership is how the industry is being pioneered in terms of culture.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: Emotional leadership is where is that?
43:08
SPEAKER_00: You're going places that other people in the industry before haven't gone, and they will give you an open and honest answer.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: And then finally, is then to actively signpost, build a bank of resources like that you just know, like that, to be able to signpost people in that moment.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: And then when you've done all those things, you've protected yourself so you sleep well, and you encourage yourself to have more conversations with people because you don't keep them at arm's length because it's going to be awkward, um, or you don't take the responsibility of fixing them.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: But not only that, but you've protected them as well because they've known the terms of your engagement and now they've got places to reach out to.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: And that whole process, that little ecosystem that I developed, and if it's used in the right way, means that we can do amazing things when it comes to having conversations whilst protecting ourselves, which is okay.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: We can look after ourselves.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: One thing you said there, Webby, you know, if you listen.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: say for example you're speaking to 10 15 20 people a week and let's say a percentage i don't know how many percentage of people in the uk have generalized anxious towards disorder or or a mental health condition for example imagine like you know you're talking percent apparently how many 28 28 28 percent of those people that you see a week i mean sometimes that can be a huge burden upon yourself to feel responsible yeah if you don't have these signposting mechanisms in place and also an understanding of what it is you're going up against because that's before you go home yeah and we have a rescue challenges there exactly so we have this kind of most people who are empathetic and most people I believe who work within financial planning are trying to do something for good for that individual and I think we naturally go into that mode of rescue and wanting to help somebody because we want that person to A feel like we're valuing we we value them but also that we're doing good by another human being.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: And I remember when I would try to help others and I would go over the top in trying to help them and I would almost then go into that drama triangle where if I tried to help somebody spent two hours three hours give them all these ideas and all of that and I didn't put the boundary in place then I would often go into the persecutory mode and almost victim mode of like well you know why why haven't they done what I've told them to do and you know you know why aren't they helping themselves?
45:27
SPEAKER_02: And what you're clearly defining there is that educate yourself, understand what these options are for that person who's within that category accept that you are not a medical professional and that you can you can lend an empathetic ear and ask emotive questions to help drive that person towards the solution, towards the help that they desire and that is the most powerful thing to do because then you're able to touch base with that person, make sure that they're all right, but not take things personally because you provided the options and the roadmap to how they can get to where they get to it might be that you check in, they haven't done what you've suggested, but that's okay.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: You might ask again, well how are you feeling today?
46:05
SPEAKER_02: And they said well actually today I feel okay.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm like that's brilliant news but just bear in mind if you ever need it give me a shout or give these guys a shout.
46:12
SPEAKER_02: And it's about trying to not be too emotionally involved step back, know what you're talking about, share your experience and say what you went through in your solution for example if you have it signposts that are right relevant places.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: And I like that and I like it's almost like it has to be any kind of client facing type role I think of as a responsibility or not as much of a responsibility there's a need for these firms to have a well-being proposition that runs alongside their business because you have to we we all have to be aware of other people's mental health and wellbeing but especially when they're clients of yours or customers of yours because you need to be doing right by them.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: And I think having that running alongside your business isn't only good for the client, it's good for the employees because they're getting an education about it, even if they've never suffered from mental health and they may never know when they go home and their partner might turn around and say they've got some problems and all of a sudden have a breakdown or whatever it might be.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: Well they might recognize something within what they've learned within that well-being proposition that's been implemented within the business that a friend's going through and they might be then able to add some um structured signposting and emotive questions that help that person drive forward didn't they?
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely and it's just that simple dynamic kind of mindset shift of going from trying to be the savior to being the person that inspires people to create positive change is huge.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: As a savior you take the responsibility but with the person that's inspiring you're kind of trying to empower people as opposed to save them and that's this the same conversation but it's a subtle difference between the two which changes the way that you kind of push forward and even with the checking in element I'll probably check in twice on somebody and that's it.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Obviously I keep liaising with if it's an organization with the HR team and stuff but because the other thing is you can create pressure by continually checking in and it there's such a fine line you see and and this is why we need to draw the line of um ethically and morally I I do not advise anybody because actually I'm not I'm not in a in any way um trained to be that that guy I don't want to be that guy either comes to that so I think if by by being up front by communicating our and setting our niche within what we do the context becomes then apparent and and that's that's what I try to communicate is the context of why I'm there.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: Nick there's an experience that I've had as a business owner where um people within my business I can clearly see that they're doing things to themselves which aren't helping their mental health.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: And then they might turn up late they might have sick days they might not be very good in the work environment.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: And being somebody that's aware of my own personal experiences, what I've done historically in the past is to bring them in and ask them some questions, emotional questions and whatnot.
49:05
SPEAKER_02: Now I have fallen into that place where I've become the rescuer and I'm starting to almost kind of say well this worked for me so you should do it for you.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: You know and then there's this feeling of resentment towards the employee when they don't take it on but continue the behaviors that are negative.
49:19
SPEAKER_02: And it's very very tricky and very difficult as a business owner to draw the line and know where you stand when it comes to talking to your employees about mental health.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: So as time progressed on and my experiences of um understanding what people need to do to take ownership of their own mental health came into play and that it's not my responsibility as a business owner, it's the individual's responsibility we started bringing in things like wellbeing propositions and you know if I can if someone comes in and they're having a bad time I can straight away say here's eight counseling sessions for you.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: Go and talk to a professional I hear what you're saying I fully understand it and I empathize and I want you to get better.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: So here is eight counseling sessions and by the way here's a you know here's the community a well-being community that you can also get involved in or here's an idea why don't you join one year no beer because you're smashing it so hard let's see if you can do 90 days I'll pay for it for you you know it's these types of things that I like to do now because it's not my responsibility and the problem is as a business owner employees make us money therefore we feel that we have to protect and you know almost kind of do everything we possibly can to solve all their problems.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: Whereas a lot of their problems are completely unsolvable by this egotistical director of a business who thinks that he's got it all licked.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: Whereas I love being able to signpost now to the relevant people it takes the pressure both myself and Stuart have experienced it and it takes the pressure off of us so much because we're not master of everything, you know?
51:02
SPEAKER_00: And personal accountability needs to come into play.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean looking back on my experiences and most of people's experiences that there's going to be a time in your life whether it's one time or many times where somebody's not going to do this for you.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: You've got to be the one to push yourself over that line and then you can kick on from there.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: And I've had a couple of those kind of times um well even over the past 19 months through pandemic and lockdown and stuff like trust me like it's been like some of my darkest days since 2012 uh over the past 19 months on the flip side has also been some of my best days as well but I think that it it's amazing that the the movement is trying to be created around kind of like mental health and stuff and it's a reason why you won't find me on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram as well by the way because I think that very often what's happening is we're we're run we're kind of riding roughshod over personal accountability and trying to find blame at the other end of this.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to I've got a real love hate with the mental health community in terms of social media because I think that we cre we try to create the conditions where people can open up and talk and we encourage people to share but then we don't catch that with the solutions or the initiatives like you said you've created the conditions where people can get support by being a responsible employer.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: For me that is and asking emotionally leading questions as you did for me that's the the perfect kind of combination but if you look at things like Twitter is a great example we encourage especially with the student community that I work a lot with we encourage people to open up and reach out.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: We don't catch them with inspiration solution all we catch them with is other people going yeah I feel like crap too and it all those kind of different things coming through.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: So it turns into this like mosh pit of despair and I think we need to be really mindful and I think this is why I kind of ethically and morally draw my boundaries at I am not solution focused in any way.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that it in some ways even regulation needs to come in around that as well because it's amazing people given experiences and share and lived experience and that's what I coach other people to do.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: But you also need to be able to set those boundaries so other people know what field they're playing in as well.
53:04
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely and it's big money in their wellbeing you know in in in the wellbeing market you know well-being is huge in America it's like billions of dollars are being traded within that and you're mentioning there about things like social media and you're getting people that have turning themselves into gurus and think they've got the solution but actually they might be causing some serious problems.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: You know I love the idea of a community like I like the ideas of communities where you've got experts within every specific area.
53:33
SPEAKER_02: So you know you might have somebody who's whose expertise is around eating disorders or something you know and you've got somebody that can actually come in and add value and talk about that area and allow that person to understand and identify with the problems that that person's going through because even like going to see like a talk therapist, they can kind of give you a roundabout idea of what's going on in your head but if they can't relate that to the issue or the problem that you've had it can be really really difficult to build that trust and engagement and identification.
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah really it really can and and and even your your branch of some the the branch of counseling I work with now um I started in in January this year that I'm gonna have multiple counseling sessions over the years for different uh parts of my life and I think it's again it's a really I think it's a personal development tool if nothing else even if it's not reactive it's proactive but the branch of counseling I have now that my cancester does um call me out on stuff.
54:25
SPEAKER_00: If my body language, if I'm sitting there telling them something with my arms crossed and he'll say like well I won't say the word but he'll say you're not telling me the truth.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: That's not right.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: And I need that right now.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Now at certain times of my life I've not been able to be able to take that in that sense.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: I also decided to work with a man this time as well because I think anybody who's been through counseling or therapy will will really understand this that um accreditation is only 50% of a decision to work with a counsellor.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: The other 50% needs to be culture.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be whether they're going to be a good fit are they going to really be the ones to maybe challenge you or inspire you or maybe you do need initially that kind of passive therapy where they're just really actively listening to you.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: So I think whether it's you that needs kind of counseling or therapy or somebody that you know whether it's a client or a friend that the best way we can introduce them to that is to every counselor and therapist worth their salt will have a 30 minute discovery call for free.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: So if you're in an opportunity of having counseling like reach out to a few chat to a few of them and just see if culturally it'd be a really good fit.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: The guy I work with now James Hall great guy uh ex-rugby player that kind of stuff I needed that kind of interaction right now that may not be forever I may need a different type in future but for now I need someone to call me out.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: So there's no one fixel and and I quite like that I mean sports coaches use the term marginal gains so daily incremental consistent changes or the Japanese have a term of kaizen uh which is an old American workplace methodology.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: So you tweak little things every day to produce bigger picture results.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of how I use counseling.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: I never saw it as a 12-week course I saw it as actually is this something that for the price of a dominoes every week I can go and have this really proactive session where I can air anything that comes into into my world that week and at the moment I deal with heavy stuff.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean this morning I was talking to somebody about self-harming and stuff and it's but because they're they're talking to me in a situation where they know I'm not the solution but they want to know how to reach out what what would my kind of what's my insight on using counselors which is why that comes to mind.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: And then you can give them the information that you've gleaned um but then you can they'll go back now to their employer and ask for the help that they need.
56:36
SPEAKER_02: One of the biggest boundaries I think that people come up against in speaking to counselors I think is the cost.
56:44
SPEAKER_02: You know it it feels a bit and correct me if I'm wrong Nick and maybe you've got some great experience around this and how you can signpost people but one of the biggest boundaries and the reason why I brought it in on a benefits package within my company was that people would wouldn't go and see a counsellor because they felt that it was too much money.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: It cost them too much money.
57:04
SPEAKER_02: And you know counseling can range anywhere when you haven't got any experience in counseling and you chuck it into Google and something comes up you know you don't know the costings.
57:11
SPEAKER_02: And somebody's£45 an hour I mean if somebody's coming in and you know my entry level guys here would come in on a 20k salary a year yeah so they're not earning any bonus or anything like that.
57:21
SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden they have a problem and you know you advise them well go and see a counselor.
57:25
SPEAKER_02: You know maybe they haven't got that much money to be able to go and see a counselor.
57:28
SPEAKER_02: Maybe to them you know£45 a week is a lot of money.
57:32
unknown: Yeah.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: What what can be you know it feels like a bit like oh I've got a bad back so I'm gonna go and see my uh chiropractor feels like a bit of a rich person's a little perk doesn't it you know no I I get what you mean uh I for me it's kind of it does depend on your budget of course as well for me it literally was a direct choice of actually what else do I spend 40 put a week on probably like a pizza or something that say right okay that's it um again I won't mention the name again in case I get sued but a famous famous pizza brand um so by me doing that and doing that instead actually that's more of a choice of how I spend my kind of social money I guess in that sense but I also appreciate I speak to people that even are without employment that get back into employment that haven't got any budget at all.
58:13
SPEAKER_00: So um do research um I can't think to Hannes um I think there is one in the Southwest actually in Bristol that there are kind of like university counselling placements where you can go along for like heavily discounted uh programs with trainee counselors that are supervised there as well so you get the full benefits but for a lot less it was like 10 pounds an hour or something so um so check that out I mean try googling a bit of kind of student counselling um or kind of trainee counselling organizations in your area I think some of the I think some of the apps that have come out are actually really really good um I was using I've been recently using Bloom and I've been using it every single day.
58:55
SPEAKER_02: It's a CBT based app and it's fantastic and it's got videos within it and you've got these kind of two counselors that are within it that you type in lots of things that are going on and it comes up and it creates sessions for you based on what you're thinking that day.
59:09
SPEAKER_02: And then you journal it and it also picks up on things you put in on your journal to kind of the algorithm and then put specific counseling sessions in front of you on a on a daily basis.
59:18
SPEAKER_02: It checks in with you it's really really good and it's really really affordable.
59:22
SPEAKER_02: And in the short period of time that I started using it over the last couple of weeks because um I felt like I needed some more CBT it's been an absolute godsend.
59:32
SPEAKER_02: You know it's been brilliant and I look forward to getting it up and I you know the video comes up and I can you know it's like right now reflect and you you sit and you you're writing you don't realize for 15 minutes you're writing and then you go back and then you can think that session was 45 minutes.
59:45
SPEAKER_02: But you know the monthly fee is like 499 or something you know and I think those are great ways to be able to engage with people.
59:53
SPEAKER_02: But I think you have to as an individual have a a desire and a need and a desire and a want to get better and takes time for some people and I think those apps sometimes although it's it's like oh you know we can solve the problem it being easy to get and um cost effective but I think sometimes nothing beats sitting down with another human opposite you and having that half felt deep conversation where somebody can challenge you because AI is not there yet it can't challenge you in the way that a human being can arrange your thinking is that spiritual is good enough isn't it like and I'll I'll certainly check that's a great recommendation so it is certainly bearing in mind that all these options are now available.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_00: But like you said from I think the other element to throw into into uh the mix is that is trust not everybody lives in a in a safe space actually sadly we've experienced that over lockdown for sure um so uh if I've been on like virtual calls or virtual kind of talks which is it's been like the mainstay really um that open questions are very few and far between because you don't know like who's in the next room or who's listening or can it be really open.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_00: And it's the same with kind of canksing and therapy really that do they trust the app when you hear so many kind of scare stories.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm absolutely sure that obviously these apps are safe as a as a disclaimer um but we we we don't trust technology enough in the moment to be fully honest because you don't know where that data's going.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: So yeah but I think you'll you'll get there I think and it's just a case of like everything and it's if you haven't got the budget it's good enough because it's better than nothing.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: And but it comes back to what you just said then that you need to have that desire to address it.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned that such a key word earlier on Sam is acceptance.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah exactly where you are right now even if you're in a place that you don't want to be a position of pain or frustration I accept where I am what's next kind of thing.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah absolutely I've always benefited for you know because I because I did a 12 step program through um I did it through AA okay yeah um so I've always benefited from having a a sponsor yeah so from my perspective having a sponsor a mentor essentially um has been really really powerful because when I get into a sticky situation I'm able to text and call and that person's able to challenge my thinking around you know because actually the thought of drinking left me instantly as soon as I identified that I couldn't drink ever again and I was like oh brilliant okay it completely left me when I heard everybody else's stories but what I was left with was my thinking and it was completely screwed.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_02: So throughout the whole kind of going through the child step process, you know, you go through a process of like discovery.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_02: So you have to look over your resentments from your past.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_02: And they tend to be the things that cause you anxiety or depression.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_02: And then you look at the future fears or the fears of things happening fears of being taken away fears of not getting something and it's a really cathartical experience and you put it all down and then it's like taking rocks out of your out of your backpack and after you've finished that period of it it's like you're completely empty.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_02: And then what you're left with is this kind of right well how do I how do I recognize when those fears might present themselves again or if a resentment comes up I'm pissed off or angry at somebody how can I solve that issue instead of burying it deep down inside and letting it then ruin my weekend or ruin my next couple of weeks which is very very easy to do.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_02: And quite simply by being able to share that with somebody, recognize it, share it, they can look at it and then look at it from a completely different perspective I'm able to go, okay, right, I can see that now and I let things go and it's incredibly powerful.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_02: But with that side of it as well and and I which is why I think 12 steps is fantastic, you know, I'm not like a spiritual person or anything like that.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_02: In fact I do the modern modern approach to 12 steps which is scientifically and psychologically and with that that kind of approach um very CBT focused basically one of the most amazing things is when you've gone through a a problematic time within your life where you've been depressed, suicidal, drinking, can't get out of your ruts, whatever it might well be affecting your work and everything it's incredibly powerful to be able to then mentor somebody else through it and take them through that journey and be there as a support mechanism mechanism for that person.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_02: And I've got a guy at the moment that I'm doing it with an unbelievable change.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_02: It's like been the most amazing experience awesome for for me and for him it's like it's incredible like the like the change that I've seen in him but him going through the process and his transformational change continually makes me change and I change my thinking around things as well.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_02: So I just think it's like again it's one of those things if you if if if you have suffered from uh a you know mental health problem how can you give back how can you how can you give back and I think that also solves the future problems of um money and costs because if you create this kind of altruistic community this uber super duper niche around a specific subject matter and everybody's helping each other I think that's a only a good thing you know like so but we're trying we need to create I think especially in the financial planning community I think the the generation and including yourself the people that are working within the industry as well and into the industry I think you are the the generation that the pioneers that are creating that change.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_00: So you may find more resistance like from that old guard kind of mentality which will come which we'll work through like everything else but you never know where it's gonna go.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean this the solutions and the awareness now as somebody I've been doing this for what six years now so the solutions and awareness now are so much more than this time last year.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_00: So we don't know where we're gonna be this time so with with the not just the advance of technology but also with with how how we're working flexible working um how relationships are being managed and um and of course the more accessible things come tends to that the cost attributed to those things comes down as well.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah so yeah so I think it Certainly getting there, and and I think the there is certainly also a rise in things like training cancellors and stuff.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: So again, I think it's it's only good things happening, but I think we're still in the uh we're in the eye of the storm uh at the moment, I think for sure.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_02: What are the biggest challenges that firms are actually coming up again?
1:06:16
SPEAKER_02: You know, when they're coming to you and they're talking to you, yeah.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, is it what's the challenge around mental what's there, some of the biggest challenges they actually have around mental health?
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: The the number one biggest challenge, like in every organization I work with from that kind of entry interview, entry meeting kind of situation is change.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_00: Change consistently the biggest anxiety trigger.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_00: But it's the same reason why we're the term mental health is is is negative as well.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_00: Because we're hardwired to look for danger and fear, so therefore change we feel will be negative.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: And uh you can I do this in any environment.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: I'll go to speak to uh uh Tesco head office a couple of weeks ago.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay, show of hands.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_00: If I said that your boss is going to cause you and call you into the office straight after this, do you think great a pay rise?
1:06:57
SPEAKER_00: Of course you don't, you think, oh, I'm out of here, I've inset.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: We we so we think change is negative all the time.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_00: When actually it may be, but it may not be.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's kind of changing our relationship with change, accepting that change is inevitable.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_00: And then building tools, I know resilience is massively overused as a term now, but building those kind of tools around resilience to be able to bounce back as soon as you can when this stuff does hit you.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, and one of the lines I like to go down is that I think very often what creates the most anxiety is not just the trying to control the uncontrollable.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's about reclaiming choice.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: But it's the first thing we give away when we struggle with life is choice.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_00: But it's about reclaiming choice, accepting that stuff may happen, but also is stop the pursuit of happiness.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_00: Bear with me on this.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_00: Let me just let me justify this.
1:07:47
SPEAKER_00: For me, a lot of my anxiety comes from the pursuit of happiness, where actually I now go for the pursuit of neutrality.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_00: Because happiness to me is peace of mind.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_00: Also, in any given context, if I go in with a neutral mindset, I work hard to make sure it's successful, but I also don't beat myself up too much if I think it's going to go wrong.
1:08:05
SPEAKER_00: So, whether that's speaking on stage stadiums or conference halls, or whether it's in my personal life, that I think it's a pursuit of happiness that can often cause the most anxiety because we feel that we our natural state should be happy, and it's not.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_00: Our natural state should be neutral.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_00: And then that means we enjoy the happiness and and we we we struggle a little bit through the sad times.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think strive for neutrality, I think, is massively underrated.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_02: Which is incredibly difficult in this dopamine dopamine world we live in now.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't give, you know, knock on your mobile phone without having a massive smash of dopamine release, you know.
1:08:40
SPEAKER_00: That's why I proactively chose that I'm I'm not on the, and even though 30% of my business was being done through those platforms before, that your mental health has to take priority.
1:08:49
SPEAKER_00: So I now it I now exist on LinkedIn and and YouTube to host my videos, and that's it.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, pretty much the same as me.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_02: Like I've I've got somebody who does all my posting for me on Instagram.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_02: I do have a personal Instagram page, um, but I definitely when I when I put it down and I and I don't use it, and I, you know, have those you know social media detoxes, etc.
1:09:09
SPEAKER_02: Dopamine detoxes, they call them these days, isn't it?
1:09:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, I find that I'm way more, as you put it, karma and content.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_02: And that's the thing that I that I strive for now.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_02: So when people say to me, Oh, we're giving up this week then, Sam.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_02: It's like they take the piss out of me.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_02: But it's not, I'm I'm I'm doing it because I'm trying to seek contentment.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm not trying to seek pleasure or this idea of happiness.
1:09:31
SPEAKER_02: And it's what we attach to what this idea of happiness is.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_02: And these social media channels absolutely exploit it, you know, money and wealth, and you know, the best body, you know, the best holidays.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: You can go on there, and it's never going to make you feel good.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_02: The reason why you keep coming back is it makes you feel shit, you know, it's like it's terrible, and but yet we do it.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_00: It not only is you're quite right, it is superficial, but also in terms of I think also in terms of that kind of element of people rarely post normally, and either post for inspiration or desperation, but very rarely in between.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_00: So, and that's the problem, really.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_00: So you're comparing your spun version of the truth against somebody else's spun version of the truth, and then feeling like shit because you bolt into it, and that's kind of the problem, is that we we never truly know what somebody's experiencing.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, even on LinkedIn, I've tried to be like consistently vulnerable in that sense, and I've shared the bad and I've shared the good because I tried to stick to kind of what I talk about really.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_00: Even when I first went self-employed years ago to kind of pay my way, to pay the mortgage.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_00: Whilst I was doing that, I was working for Tesco, delivering groceries 36 hours a week.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_00: So, but I I kind of I did what everybody thought was LinkedIn suicide in the start of my blossoming entrepreneurial kind of journey, um, by posting a video of me and high viz on a Sunday morning saying this is what I'm doing to keep the dream alive.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_00: And to anybody else working a plan B to get to a plan A, I'm with you.
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: And to this day, it still remains one of my popular posts.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_00: So uh I think it's not being afraid to like show your true self.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the problem that people very rarely do.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: And then we compare our we compare that against our lot.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_02: I think social media is a bit of a it's gonna be a problem within the work environment because I think a lot of people coming into these smaller companies where they're almost expected to be social media influencers within their own jobs.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there was a point where it was like pressure, pressure.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_02: If you're not using video, if you're not posting things videos, then you're you know you're gonna miss out.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_02: I remember in my place, like really hyper focusing on it.
1:11:32
SPEAKER_02: And there was people in there saying, I don't I don't want to post video, Sam.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: I was like, well, you could, you know, I'll get you some training on it.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_02: And and it was like pressure to to keep up with the Joneses, this idea that we're gonna make this fear of missing out again.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that's an area where a lot of companies are gonna lose their stuff by over because these staff are gonna be sitting there thinking, I don't want to do that, but I feel like you're you're you're judging me if I don't do it.
1:11:56
SPEAKER_02: So we have to have this conversation around social media.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_02: And we do at interview stages.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_02: Look, you know, some people in here love to put content out, some people in here like to put some out, some people just don't like it because they feel uncomfortable.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_02: Now we're gonna work with you as to how you can do it.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_02: What's the best strategy for you to do it?
1:12:10
SPEAKER_02: Because we are in an age where marketing is is required, but we're certainly not going to put pressure upon you anymore to feel like you have to do it.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's really, really important to me.
1:12:20
SPEAKER_02: So, content creation as a from a company now, we're sort of building it in one area and then distributing it out in the right in the right ways.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_02: But I'll be honest with you, Nick.
1:12:27
SPEAKER_02: I feel like having this podcast, getting myself on video, running the marketing for my recruitment company, I find it very stressful, mate, you know, and because I don't particularly like to put myself out there too much for that fear of what people think, because I've always got this fear of what people think of me.
1:12:42
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, and I'm doing it and I'm thinking, why am I doing this?
1:12:45
SPEAKER_02: Why do I keep putting myself through something I feel uncomfortable about?
1:12:49
SPEAKER_02: But I do learn as I progress through.
1:12:51
SPEAKER_02: And as I've done it, and as I've put myself out and then I've become more honest and authentic, actually, I am seeing an intrinsic internal change within me.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_02: So it's becoming a good thing.
1:12:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I but I can see it causing problems within some companies, especially some of these smaller companies where the expectation is very high upon newbies coming in to be influencers.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: And if it doesn't, I mean, if it doesn't like sit well, work out, provide a revenue, whatever that thing is for you.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_00: Like I said, don't be afraid.
1:13:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean, for two weeks after closing my social media accounts, I thought the whole world was trying to get hold of me and I was missed out on every opportunity under the sun.
1:13:25
SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly a piece descended.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_00: And and I I loved it so much and just kept it that way.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: Now, don't be afraid because sometimes we we kind of we either assume an outcome or a revenue to something that we really enjoy doing, so therefore we must do that thing.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, but sometimes the stuff you you don't like doing actually is it worth doing?
1:13:44
SPEAKER_00: And are you giving it your all?
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: You're putting everything into that, or actually, could you do without it?
1:13:48
SPEAKER_00: So for a very brief example, so the money, the business, the 30% of the business I lost on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, um, very, very soon, like within three months, and this is drawing a pandemic, within three months, started to see that revenue coming in through lead through LinkedIn.
1:14:04
SPEAKER_00: So I've not lost anything, but I've gained a lot of sanity.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_02: I think LinkedIn LinkedIn, LinkedIn can, if you immerse yourself within LinkedIn, which I have for years, it can have the same negative effects as something like Instagram or Facebook.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's got to be incredibly careful because it's very easy to compare yourself to other businesses, leaders, directors of companies.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_02: And again, you start getting that compare and despair terribly within within LinkedIn.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_02: So I think LinkedIn you've got to be careful.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_02: But um, out of all the social media platforms, that one I like.
1:14:33
SPEAKER_02: And I'm also starting to understand a bit more about YouTube.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, I quite I'm quite liking YouTube as well.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, on I've got a no-scroll policy.
1:14:42
SPEAKER_00: So I've got no apps on my phone around social media, even YouTube.
1:14:46
SPEAKER_00: I uh I don't scroll any home feeds.
1:14:49
SPEAKER_00: Um now I know that goes against every kind of thing so you've got but engage in conversations and stuff.
1:14:54
SPEAKER_00: Actually, great if that's what you want to do, but I'm okay.
1:14:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually really happy.
1:14:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to sell at the minute.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_00: I've been fortunate to build a profile where I don't need to do that, so I'm not going to.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I could superficially engage conversations, but I'll engage in the ones I want to.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_00: I'll much refer to direct message to people that I want a direct message, and in return they would with me.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_00: So I don't look at my home feed at all.
1:15:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, I also unfollow anybody in my space.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_00: That was something that came about from one of my early mentors, a guy called Brad Burton.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh, he he said there's a reason why racehorses uh wear blinkers, uh, they run their own race and I don't get distracted about what's going on around them or what I should be doing.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_00: So actually, anybody in the same space as me, I just unfollow.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_00: Not because I'm afraid or I don't want to know them, it's just because I don't need to see it.
1:15:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and because if there was an option on LinkedIn to turn the home feed off, I would do that straight away.
1:15:51
SPEAKER_02: I would as well.
1:15:51
SPEAKER_02: And I think actually it's something that businesses would be like find very, very valuable for their staff is to have that no scrolling period.
1:15:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm I'm with you on the whole um unfollow people within your own field because it doesn't make it does no good for you whatsoever.
1:16:04
SPEAKER_02: And I've been doing that as well, Nick.
1:16:06
SPEAKER_02: And it's been really, really, um, really, really useful.
1:16:08
SPEAKER_00: There's amazing people in my field, and and and I said, and I've I've trained a lot of them, they come through the academy, but um the it just becomes this kind of if I'm not going to be looking at the home screen anyway, the stuff that automatically pops up, it may well be, it may as well be kind of relevant to why I'm on there initi uh originally in the first place.
1:16:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is where social media has caused the biggest problem.
1:16:29
SPEAKER_00: I see this a lot in the student community as well, is created a blur between who are friends and who are your social friends and and who are just business people that trying to create a friend.
1:16:41
SPEAKER_00: Is this a really weird blur between the lot?
1:16:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say I've probably got two, maybe three close friends generally, and that's it.
1:16:52
SPEAKER_00: And and anybody else, if they want to message me, and of course I'll message them back and that kind of stuff, but those are the people I really try with, alongside my family, of course.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's it.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_00: So on a weekend, everything goes off apart from the people that got my number.
1:17:05
SPEAKER_02: I say double down on engagement.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_02: I speak to more people like this, you know, when you're doing podcasts, it's such a better way to um to learn about your market, a great way to promote yourself.
1:17:15
SPEAKER_02: It does create content off of it which is authentic, and um, I just think that's a far better way than spending hours and hours and hours creating content for likes.
1:17:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just just a bit of a silly game, I think, really.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_02: And it's exactly what these why they make so much money on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, you know.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_00: And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because then you convince yourself that you need to do that, yeah.
1:17:38
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, 100%.
1:17:40
SPEAKER_02: Nick, I could talk to you all day.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_02: This is brilliant.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_02: I love this.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna um definitely catch up with you outside.
1:17:48
SPEAKER_02: Now we both know we're Bristol boys.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:17:50
SPEAKER_02: So, and I definitely want to catch up with you.
1:17:52
SPEAKER_02: Nick, what can people do to get hold of you?
1:17:55
SPEAKER_02: If anyone's listened to this podcast and they think I really like Nick, I want to learn more about what he's doing.
1:17:59
SPEAKER_02: Perhaps you can help our organization within financial planning, perhaps you can help me in some way.
1:18:04
SPEAKER_02: What can people do to reach out to you?
1:18:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, nice and simple, it's just uh nickelston.com.
1:18:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so you can find all of my links and contact me through email, my social links and podcast links and stuff.
1:18:15
SPEAKER_00: And uh if you stay tuned for season four of the podcast, I will have the brilliant Sam Oaks on that season.
1:18:20
SPEAKER_00: So uh that will follow a very due, very due course.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, nickelston.com.
1:18:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, please do reach out and connect and stuff, and you will find me on LinkedIn only.
1:18:29
SPEAKER_02: Fabulous, Nick, real pleasure talking to you, and I'm really looking for continuing our relationship.
1:18:33
SPEAKER_02: Cheers, buddy.
1:18:34
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much.
1:18:34
SPEAKER_02: Cheers, thank you.