Latest / SkyTalkDoc / E276 The FAA’s Dirty Secret: Fear, Stigma, and Pilot Mental Health
Transcript
- Dr. Michaela: Good morning, Cora, and welcome to the Sky Talk Doc podcast. I am so excited to have you on because you, like myself, do all sorts of things in aviation, life coaching related, kind of helping aviators and people in aviation really navigate the challenges that are unique to the industry, as well as some of the Regulations around how they can seek and gain access to support during challenging times. Share with the listeners a little bit about how you decided to take this pivot twist in your career and kind of where you're at right now. Kora Kresin: Yeah, thanks for asking. Thank you for having me. Good morning. Hello from Oregon. so I've been an aviation therapist, is my title, as well as human factors consultant now. actually, this month, September 2026, will be my fifth year. So we made it to the big five. but it all started actually. My friend Jill, she's actually the aviation dietitian. And so she's actually kind of the one that got me started into this niche of, you know, aviators don't. fit into the cookie cutter, you know, bake your own meals every day, or in in therapy or life coaching, get close to your family. Have you considered having dinner with them every night? So Dr. Michaela: They're right. Kora Kresin: she really opened me up to that. She's been with me along the whole journey, and she's definitely one of my biggest supports. So actually, the nutrition side of overall well-being for aviation is what got me interested. and then before that I worked in forensics, so I was very familiar with understanding policy, both you know, state and federal, as well as things potentially being overseen by a judge. This is my orange cat. He has one orange brain cell. He shares with all the other orange cats. So Dr. Michaela: Therapy cat coming in. Well, I'll tell you, I have had, you know, telehealth really changed the entire dynamic, right? Or video coaching, whatever. I have had the funniest cat stories. Like cats just do not give an F about anything. They're like, I'm the boss and this is what's happening. I remember I was in a couple session. And they started getting kind of like heated in terms of their energy levels, their emotions were high. The cat literally walks in onto the bed behind them, right? They're sitting in their room and takes a big old doogie, like right in the middle. I was like, this is not out of it. He jumps up, he's Kora Kresin: my gosh That's diabolical on the Dr. Michaela: screaming, she's grabbing the sheets. They're like, We're so sorry. I'm like, this is classic. I love it. Kora Kresin: The bed. That's like my nightmare. No worse place for a cat situation. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: Yep. Yep. The and you know, it's never just that. It's like the spray and everything that goes along. They were mortified. It was so funny. I've got the craziest cat stories. At one point I had a cat that was balancing on a like a stair rail thing with a drop-off. I thought the cat was gonna die. And she's like, Are you staring at my cat? I'm Yeah, she's like, Don't worry, it does it all the time. I'm like, Okay. Like Whatever you say. Like this cat's like literally cleaned off. Kora Kresin: You say so? Like Will you pay the copay if I see your cat die and I need therapy? Like Dr. Michaela: If I have trauma, right? Yeah. So, but I think you touched on something so valid and it's something that I wanna mention too, because you know, I did this book tour, it's almost exactly a year ago. Like I can't believe it. Yeah. Kora Kresin: The anniversary Mazzleton. Dr. Michaela: I I can't believe that. I was I actually had a friend send a picture from the book tour and said one year ago, and I'm like, my gosh, how is how has it been a year? But 33 states in 13 days in a nineteen forty-four war bird, you know, it was it was you're talking Kora Kresin: That's commitment. That is Dr. Michaela: about diet for aviators, and I'm thinking, gosh, you know, I remember first of all, whenever I'm in like any kind of weather conditions that are stressful, I don't eat, right? Like we go to the fight, flight, fawn freeze, our body suppresses our appetite, all the things. So I remember I was in some Fuchi weather and my partner was was co-pilot and he's sitting and he's a former Alaskan bush pilot, like thirty, thirty-five thousand hours, you know. He's for him, like there is no marginal VFR. There's no like IFR is VFR. Like it's just a totally different Yes, Kora Kresin: They're the same picture. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: yes. And I remember I'm thinking, I am so stressed. I'm like scud running, like you know, all the things. He's over there literally just munching on some chips, like kicked back, like it's a bluebird kind of day. And and you know, he du his approach to the cockpit is you need the experience more than I do. So I'm not, you're on your own. Like this is your gig. And with the book tour, Kora Kresin: Yeah. Yeah, I'm just yeah, I'm just here. Dr. Michaela: especially, he was like, nah, I'm just here to fix the airplane if something breaks, so you don't get stuck in the middle of you know, Illinois or something. Like Kora Kresin: I got the ox cord. I got you. Like Yeah. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, yeah. So so he was like kind of just like you you do you boo like I'm I'm over here and I'm like my gosh. But I remember every night when we would land, you know, we'd get in, I'd have media on the ramp, I'd have people that were social media followers that were coming. It was exciting, but I didn't Kora Kresin: This is exciting. Dr. Michaela: eat until like ten o'clock at night in BFE. The only thing open is like, you know, the cr the cracker barrel or something like and I'm like How do I find I'm super hippies, very organic, very like all natural, you know, I eat very well. And I'm like, how do I eat well at the cracker barrel? Right. Like the option is chicken and waffles or chicken and waffles. Like it, you know? Kora Kresin: Yes. Yeah. Yep. Dr. Michaela: So I can totally relate to the need for aviator dietitian. About halfway through. I got savvier. Like I started to kind of like, and I'd done air races. I'd actually done an air race that summer, last summer, and one before that. But it's just so different. The world is so different when you're, you know, navigating an aircraft, high stakes conditions, high mental aptitude, right? You need to eat. You gotta have your brain working. the other thing with these warbirds is they put off this exhaust that's just it's like. Kora Kresin: Nauseating. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: Totally. I got really good at I bought these things called boomsticks and you actually like put them in your nose and breathe like it's like and so it's menthol, but they have lavender and citrus and all these different my dad actually introduced them to me. and yeah, when I found the boomstick, I was like, okay, this is bearable. This is bearable. But like Kora Kresin: Not me looking for boomsticks after this. That sounds so nice. Yes. Dr. Michaela: Yes. The lavender one. Like when you get to the hotel at night, like taking a a hit off this lavender stick, it's like Kora Kresin: Catch me in the corner of the hotel like Dr. Michaela: totally. But it was yeah, it was really a game changer. So it's funny how we do we find these ways to navigate our life, you know. And I actually just had Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer 500 on the podcast. He'll his episode's coming out in a couple weeks. So it'll be right before yours. And yeah, he was talking about just like how we we were kind of having this conversation about how he would dive in the Bering Sea, save a bunch of people off of a you know boat engulfed in flames, get back in the Hilo, Kora Kresin: As one does. Dr. Michaela: go go back to the office, office in air quotes, get get another. PBA, they gotta go. Like he hasn't pro pr processed any of the things he's just lived through, right? Like he's just on to the next thing. And that might be an extreme example, but I feel like there's a lot of examples that are were thrown into that fight, flight, font of Rieze, and we don't have a lot of time to recover from it because maybe it's just a brief weather incident or a scary smell, or you know, maybe it's not Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: like a life or death all the time, but it's something that definitely you're body goes right to level Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: 10. And then I've still got to fly this this jumbo jet or whatever. Like I don't have time to process any of that. I recently Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: heard about an Alaska Airlines flight that had like a bunch of people having seizures and passing out and all sorts of so even the passengers in the back some of these pilots are having to kind of navigate I'll let you take the floor you talk. Kora Kresin: Yeah, no, I mean you bring up a really good point about meals is like when you don't get the like, let's calm our body down, let's sit down, you know, with family, you actually even miss out on a lot of the social rewards. I actually learned recently that the same part of your brain that goes off when you're a baby and swaddled actually illuminates and powers itself on when you share a meal with people you care about. And so, you know, beyond like the nutrition and stuff, That's one of the things that makes aviation unique is like you don't necessarily always get those consistent like social rewards in addition to, you know, basic protein electrolytes and hydration. so yeah, no, I'm glad that you brought up, you know, specifically meals and then allowing your body to calm down enough. But then the second part is getting that social reward that keeps our like little battery going in our heart. Dr. Michaela: So fascinating. The fMRI studies that are coming out are just like I totally geek out on these as like a neuroscience person. And it's just like, whoa, I never even thought of oxytocin, you know, being impacted by that part of things. And yeah, it's fascinating. Even even some of the stuff that they're doing in terms of couples when they reconnect and re see each other and what lights up and the maternal connections to that. It's it's really fascinating stuff for sure. Kora Kresin: I actually read about it. The study was on teenagers. A lot of parents were coming and saying, How do I connect with my teen? You know, if you have a teenager, you know, they'd rather, you know, make out with a toaster than get a hug from mom, depending on their age. And so Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Kora Kresin: yeah, they that was they actually looked at teens and and babies and that was consistent and even through adulthood. But yeah, it's so cool. It's kind of like Dr. Michaela: Wow. Kora Kresin: exploring the ocean. The more you know, the more you want to keep knowing. Dr. Michaela: It's interesting that you bring that up because so I I had an only before Commander and I got together. I had an only and he's a boy and super duper cuddle bug, loves his mama like always. And then I started to notice right around like thirteen, right, is is definitely there was not that now if he wants a hug, it's something specific, you know, and I'm very cautious about that. Kora Kresin: Utility, yeah. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, we've gotten more into like the fist bumps and the high fives and what's up, bro. Like that that kind of stuff, you know. I never Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: thought I'd be called bro, but here we are. You know, but like that kind of that kind of shift. But one thing that has remained consistent and Commander and I are very we take this very seriously. We do dinner, we do family dinner and we kind of do like a go around the circle and ask a question. Fun thing like if you had to pick a planet, what would you want to live on? You know, s stuff like that. Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: But it's interesting what you're saying 'cause I'm drawing the connection that that basically is a hug. That dinner time is a hug in terms of how the brain is processing the connection. That's Kora Kresin: Same exact spot in the brain. And actually for teenagers versus adults, it's like ninety percent of what babies actually experience in terms of how strong those attachment neurons are firing off. It nearly rivals a newborn being swaddled during the teenage years. Dr. Michaela: No shit. That's why they say food is the way to the heart, right? Wow. They weren't even Kora Kresin: Yes. Yeah, and teenagers are always hungry. Use the opportunities while you can. I know. Dr. Michaela: That's amazing. The freaking teenagers eat us out of house and home. my gosh, we were just having a conversation about that. It's insane. but that is really fascinating and good to know. So when you're navigating, onboarding an aviator or someone in the aviation-related fields, how do you handle that? I mean, it's kind of interesting. So a couple of years ago, I posted a reel and I was like, I I didn't expect it to go viral, but I posted a reel and I was like, hey. everybody's lying on their on their you know, their IACRA because they don't want to get grounded. So who's that really helping? Like you're encouraging them to lie. Like, you know, and I posted it, it went viral. it was pretty insane. It was right around the time that we were seeing, I'm forgetting Isla is her name and what was happening with that. and Kora Kresin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: then I was posting some reels that were like, therapists don't even realize that by lab labeling aviators, they're you know, grounding them. They're in some in some cases giving a slapping an ADHD label on someone when they're in high school is preventing them from being able to go into an aviation career. So Kora Kresin: I'm a child of the nineties, so everyone had ADHD back in the day. So yeah. Dr. Michaela: Right, right. Yeah. So I was posting these reels. They were going viral. but what was surprising was how many aviators that were reaching out to me. And I was like, wow, this is like this is a conversation that needs to happen. I knew it, and that's why I put the reels out there, but what I didn't Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: realize was how really truly massive the problem was. You know what I mean? Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: And and so I did end up getting involved in the pilot mental health committee. and kind of all the work they're doing there. I didn't make it out to Washington with them because I was prepping for air racism book tours, but they but they Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: made it out there and they're they're seeing some real positive changes happening. Now that being said, I have an aviator on my coaching list right now who uses an alternate email that is completely discreet because that they don't want any connection to even their name out there, you know. Kora Kresin: I have those as well. They use an alias, or you know, some I I get a lot of like Google phone numbers because there is that fear Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Kora Kresin: and you bring up a good point is like shout out to the pilot mental health campaign, amazing people. But as we're seeing these changes, they're all positive, but I haven't really seen the FAA acknowledge the historical damage that they've done. You know, they're always Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Kora Kresin: like, look at this bright new shiny thing. But when they do that, they're kind of, you know, dismissing all the potential aviation professionals that did, you know, do the right thing. And I've noticed specifically in aviation, these are go-getters. These are if we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it right. And so Sometimes when they're totally honest, like, yeah, I went to therapy in middle school for ADHD. you know, that is kind of how they get in trouble. So it is kind of a double-edged sword. And I'm gonna say a hot take here. I think having ADHD could actually make you a better pilot. That's my like hill I'm willing to die on. Dr. Michaela: I have yet to meet a pilot that I wouldn't like on some level say has attention, you know, deficit disorder, hyperactive, inattentive, whatever type you want to call it. I'm not a big fan of labels for just this reason because the type of person that's willing to jump out of a helicopter into the Bering Sea at night in freezing conditions doesn't fit the freaking mold. Like, I'm sorry. Like Kora Kresin: No, and the quickness of needing decision making and you know, like y good luck, neurotypical. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, like I I would literally if if we had to take like a thousand aviators and give them all an MPI or some sort of pa you know, the the the pie test or whatever, I guarantee all of them would have those typical traits that we see in some of these quote neurodivergent like mental health, you know, disorders, if we want to Kora Kresin: Yeah Dr. Michaela: label it a disorder. I think it takes all sorts of people in the world and that's where really truly the mental health industry and the DSM has created a huge problem for a lot of a lot of fields, but aviation in particular. Kora Kresin: Yeah, yeah, and then that compounded by insurance companies that, you know, most of my clients don't go through insurance all my clients actually don't go through insurance. Dr. Michaela: What a diagnosis. Yeah. Yep. Kora Kresin: but you know, if if you work in the medical industry, you know that day one they expect you to slap a diagnosis onto someone if you expect them to cover care, which is why we don't go through insurance. But yeah, no, there are just all these compounding factors that unless your head is on a swivel, it's really easy to, you know, get blacklisted. Dr. Michaela: And I think, you know, the lack of education t to people that are in the field is is really the issue. Both sides, both sides, the mental health side as well as the aviation side, which is why I do think that, you know, we've we've kind of it's gotten passed down. The the rumor, Mill is if you're an aviator, don't say you have any, you're perfect, you're happy, everything is good. It was kind of interesting to see how many influencers started posting reels about that after. I feel like it was kind of after I got loud. I think I kind of cracked it open and gave people permission to actually talk about it a little bit. Myself Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: among others, not just me exclusively, because there are people like yourself and other aviators that also play in mental health that were starting to call it out. But I think that I think that it's like don't say there's anything wrong with you. And that's the message that gets passed down. The problem is then we wonder why pilots have broken marriages, among other things, right? Because Kora Kresin: Or high blood pressure or, you know, st stuff like that. Yep. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's a lot of things that people need assistance with in life that don't mean you can't fly an airplane safely, right? Like and I think that's part of the issue is where is the line and and the other thing I'll say is the number of aviators that I've worked with that ground themselves. Like Kora Kresin: Yes. Dr. Michaela: they're like, I I don't feel like I don't I'm not doing it, right? Like they you know, so I think that There has to be some big shift to this Titanic where Kora Kresin: I'm glad you bring this up because if you look at medical professionals as well as aviation professionals, we are all under licensure or some kind of certification. So for the FAA to come out and say we don't trust either of these professions to ground if it's, you know, necessary. I've talked to a few clients and said, Hey, how do you feel Dr. Michaela: Yeah yeah. Kora Kresin: about maybe stepping away until we get this kind of squared out? And no one has ever been like, no, no. It's always been, yeah, let's do that and come up with a plan to where we feel safe again. And so it's one of those really rare cases where a government body oversees so strictly two lines of profession that are already certified or licensed within, you know, their prospective field. Yes, exactly. Yes. Dr. Michaela: And highly regulated. Highly regulated. That's the thing. Is it's it's kind of like a checklist. And that's something that, you know, Pilot Mental Health has come out with. We've we've kind of come up with this one sheet to hand people that's like, here's kind of how to navigate, you know, and here if you're dealing with these things, go go get some coaching. Go, you know, if you're struggling with some financial stuff because your ex you know, you got a divorce and your ex is taking you for everything, right? That doesn't Kora Kresin: Yes. Dr. Michaela: mean you can't fly an airplane. It means you need to talk to someone about how to navigate financial stuff or whatever. And I think, you know, maybe your aging parent passed away and you're dealing with that, right? Like that doesn't Kora Kresin: Or your cat is sick or, you your kid Yeah. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Right. There's a lot of things that that we can, you know, very easily kind of get support to the to people who need it without having to say, like, this is gonna be, you know, a scarlet letter on your aviation record for the next 30 years to come. Kora Kresin: You mean further destabilize these people? Dr. Michaela: Right, right. Yeah. I remember I had a gal on the podcast who had a skin cancer and she did the right thing and she put it on her, you know, medical phone. Form when she was going back in and they grounded her and she was still Kora Kresin: Where Dr. Michaela: navigating how to get back in the air for a skin cancer. I mean, you know, it's absolutely insane the levels that we've taken it to. And I think that when we really zoom out on it, it's about the fear-based mindset, right? Like we're all living in this space of let's let's overprotect. every element of our lives. Let's walk around in a bubble so that nobody bangs their head and gets hurt and Kora Kresin: No any liability from anyone. Dr. Michaela: Exactly. So I think untangling this bird's nest is is gonna be a long process. I don't I don't see an easy, easy answer, but I do think that there are at least people like yourself who are out there saying, I let me offer you a hand, something pilots don't easily take, but let me offer you a hand to navigate this complex world. And I think To my to what I was trying to say earlier is to normalize it, right? Like to say we recognize that this is not ideal and Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: you're not wrong for feeling crazy in this in this world because even the people who are intimately familiar with diagnosis codes are feeling that. Kora Kresin: Yes, yep. Agreed. And, you know, hopefully again as the FAA moves forward with these positive changes, they will kind of acknowledge the historical damage and the trepidation that pilots validly have. I feel like every person I've talked to knows firsthand someone that has like lost their medical for something, you know, inconsequential to the terms of safety of flight. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, I was I I share this story, but I was in my commercial check ride and I remember the the DPE saying something to the effect of you can't you can't be a therapist and a pilot. You can't even have had therapy, you know? And I was like, You're the problem. You're actually the problem. Like, let me educate you now, DPE, on the fact that It for any therapist to become licensed, they have to have their own counseling. Hello. Like this is part of the process. But it just goes to show like the rumor mill and where we've gotten Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: to with it, which is pretty wild. And that's not to say that there's not a reason behind it, right? Like we can we can look at some of these stories where somebody actively suicidal got into an airplane, locked a door. I mean, there's a reason. You know, Julie Clark and her and the story of her dad and what happened there and why we even have locks on the doors, right? Like 9-11 things and different stuff like that. So I feel like there is there is a reason why it initiated there was probably good intentions, but the pendulum just pinged the other side, you know? So when you're Kora Kresin: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: when you're going to work with an aviation professional, what's what's the process? Did how do you how do you navigate that? Kora Kresin: Yeah, yeah. So usually when people reach out, I set up a discovery call or a free consult call just to make sure it's a good fit and things I wanna know is someone's one where they are in flight training, that is always helpful to know. But then beyond that, you know what their goal is and then really kind of calming the notion that this is anything that could lead them to grounding. I mentioned earlier that a lot of folks are worried about that and so they give an alias or a fake name. And so most of what the consult call is is actually going through precautions of how we do make our sessions aviation safe. And part of that is you know the consent of understanding these are life coaching sessions. That's one of the first things that I clear up is this is not reportable under the MedExpress form where it says medical professional visits. I'm not here to diagnose Yeah. If you want to I mean, I won't lie to someone if they ask. for some people that can be really good clarity for them, but that's never something that they'll find later in a file or I'll just, you know, drop on them. So having the consent first is definitely the most important and explaining how this is pilot safe and, you know, again, giving suggestions that aren't, well, just have dinner with your family every night, or, you know, take a Xanax and chill. Dr. Michaela: It Kora Kresin: you know, they're they're also, in addition to being safe, tips that work in the flight deck and then within the dynamic of being an aviation professional. Dr. Michaela: I love this. So you're bringing kind of this toolbox, right? Like this toolkit that contains things that are aviation friendly, which is just so important. one of the things that I've found to be super helpful, I don't know if you do this, but when I do aviation coaching, is I get a Google Doc, a shared Google Doc going. and that allows them to work on kind of punting things back and forth to me. When they've got 30 minutes sitting at an airport between flights or whatever, I found like all these little like workarounds that are unique to aviators. I also don't do cancellation fees, which is yeah, there's no Kora Kresin: Me either, actually. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: way with aviators. It just does not work. So, so that's another benefit that they like. They know they can say, shoot, I just got called on this flight or my flight's delayed. I'm not gonna make it. Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: We find another time that works. I've kind of coordinated my schedule where if They're if they no show me, I've got something else to do. Like it's you know, it's not like it's gonna break. Kora Kresin: Yeah. And I try to even keep one or two sessions open every day for, you know, the CFIs or the students that are a lot more weather dependent. and you Dr. Michaela: Yeah, yeah. Kora Kresin: bring up a good point is, you know, making this accessible. I also do like a sliding scale. I'm sure, you know, you've seen this as as you're getting your hours, money is not as free flowing as once you're flying the bigger planes. so I do a sliding scale as well, in addition to like no fees for for no shows. So Dr. Michaela: Yeah, yeah. I do say th that, you know, professional respect is is just like Kora Kresin: Yes. Dr. Michaela: and that it can go both ways, right? Like I'm also an aviator still, you know? So I appreciate the kind of camaraderie that I've settled into. but it's amazing the stuff that people bring to the to the the coaching table. And I'm I'm happy to see that there are more Coaches that are willing to navigate this world because up until now I think it has been mostly Psych MDs. Kora Kresin: Mm-hmm. Dr. Michaela: and so it's really nice to see that there's these alternate approaches to helping people through challenging things. and that's that's been really awesome. because as we know, the Psych MDs kind of bring a different solution or toolbox, Kora Kresin: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: solution-oriented toolbox to the to the table. So So how are you incorporating the lifestyle part of things? Cause I think, you know, a lot of what I see is if we look at the personality type, right? We kind of hinted at that earlier. High dopamine, you know, so they do kind of struggle. Right. Kora Kresin: Perfectionists. Dr. Michaela: Like there's all these unique elements to the profile, if we were to slap one on an aviator, right? And those generally aren't conducive to maintaining like how do we say just not cheating on your partner, right? I'll just put it out there in plain words, right? Aviators tend to be allured by the the high dopamine hit. they're away from their families for a long time, usually. And this is not to say that they're all this way. I have met very many pilots who are happily married or happily single, you know, that aren't struggling with this. food is a big issue, right? Grabbing the the hot bites through which then contributes to s self-confidence issues. Then we combine the overly confident issues that they need to present in the flight deck. So so how do you navigate this unique lifestyle profile of an aviator? Kora Kresin: Yeah, so I before this worked in forensics, like I said, and I kind of use a similar approach to looking at risk and protective factors equally. so I like to get kind of a snapshot of the skills they have. And I'm kind of a huge proponent of not reinventing the wheel and using things that, you know, the skills they already have and and building on top of that. So, you know, for example, I have a lot of aviation professionals that they're like, I don't understand why I can be, you know, snappy to my partner, but when I'm on the line flying, I would never talk to a captain like that, or I would never Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Kora Kresin: talk to To like the lead purser, like that. And so, you know, figuring out, okay, let's break it down as to why, and then using the skills that you have to not tell your boss to pound sand, and you know, Dr. Michaela: No. Kora Kresin: bringing that on the inside. And then there's also this level of perfectionism within the aviation industry, as well as what I see. folks struggle with a lot is how it's very scaffolded. And I when you're in the industry, you know what your next step is for ninety percent of while you know what you're working towards. And when I find folks finally get to the airline they want or the position they want, they're like, now what do I do? and so that's another thing that I find kind of unique to the aviation profession, especially with pilots, having it being so scaffolded and then all of a sudden What do I do now? that can be really challenging for folks. And then you add in the crippling perfectionism and also imposter syndrome within the high-stakes environment of aviation. But that's kind of what I love about it is taking those things within the context of this narrow. industry and you know, going from there. For those of you curious, I enjoy using family systems theory, which is even, you know, using someone's weaknesses and using them for well, how can this propel us towards our goal? So Dr. Michaela: I love that. so can you share with the listeners how best to get in touch with you so that they can get the help and services that they need? Where where can they find you best? Kora Kresin: Yeah, so I'll start with Instagram. I'm aviation.therapist. my website is flightdeckcommunity.com. And then also the email account is flightdeckcommunity at gmail.com. You can message me on Instagram or through my website. Always happy to ask questions. And if I can't answer a question, I will lead you to someone that hopefully can. Dr. Michaela: Thank you so much, Cora. This was fantastic. As always, folks, we put the links in the show notes. Reach out to Cora and check out all of the amazing things she's doing for professionals in the aviation world. Kora Kresin: Thank you so much for having me. Have a great rest of your day. Dr. Michaela: Take care. Okay.