Latest / Pod Save the World / Lindsey Graham's Bloody Legacy

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Lindsey Graham's Bloody Legacy · Pod Save the World

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  Speaker 3: This summer, America celebrated its two hundred and fiftieth birthday.
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  Speaker 3: direct quote merciless Indian savages. As it turns out, relations
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  Speaker 3: with Native nations weren't just a footnote in the American Revolution.
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  Speaker 3: Think about the Boston Tea Party, the colonists literally disguised
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  Speaker 3: themselves as Native Americans. Later, the country's very first attempt
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  Speaker 3: Land podcast, along with leading Native historians. It completely reframes
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  Speaker 3: howard democracy was actually built, which feels pretty relevant in
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  Speaker 3: your podcasts.
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  Speaker 4: Welcome to Potse of America. I'm John FAVORC. I'm John
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  Speaker 1: Look at this.
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  Speaker 4: I know it's exciting. All right. On today's show, we're
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: going to talk about the democrats new twenty twenty eight
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  Speaker 4: primary calendar, which puts South Carolina first and has already
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: set off a debate about who that helps. We'll also
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  Speaker 4: talk about one Democratic leader who seems beyond help, DNC
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: chair Ken Martin, the subject of not one, not two,
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: but three leak filled stories about the party's financial crisis.
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  Speaker 4: Then we'll cover Trump's trip to Michigan in the Senate
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  Speaker 4: race there, as well as the latest with the Iran
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: war and the biggest bombing of the weekend. The President's
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: performance at the rescheduled White House Correspondence dinner. Finally, Ben
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: Wickler stopped by the studio to talk about the DNC
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: drama that was Constant Gubernatorial primary Drama and his brand
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  Speaker 4: new drama free book. This is the plan, all right, guys.
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  Speaker 4: Let's start with the biggest news from over the weekend
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  Speaker 4: that will impact the outcome of the twenty twenty eight
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  Speaker 4: presidential election. We have a new primary calendar. It's here.
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  Speaker 4: On Friday, the DNC's Rules and by Laws Committee voted
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  Speaker 4: to make South Carolina the first primary state on January
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  Speaker 4: twenty second, twenty twenty eight. It will tentatively be followed
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  Speaker 4: by Nevada on February first, New Hampshire a week after that,
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  Speaker 4: New Mexico a week after that, Michigan the next week,
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  Speaker 4: and finally Virginia on February twenty ninth, before a bunch
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  Speaker 4: of other states vote in early March on Super Tuesday.
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  Speaker 4: The new calendar still has to be approved by the
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  Speaker 4: full DNC, which will meet next month, but there's already
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  Speaker 4: one potential stumbling block. New Hampshire has a law that
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  Speaker 4: requires the state to go at least one week earlier
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  Speaker 4: than any other state primary. The DNC's proposed solution is
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  Speaker 4: for the New Hampshire Democratic Party to fund and hold
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  Speaker 4: its own primary that's separate from the official state primary.
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  Speaker 4: But it doesn't sound like New Hampshire Democratic leaders are
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  Speaker 4: on board with that plan just yet, or Republican leaders
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  Speaker 4: or Republican leaders right. There's also been some grumbling from
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  Speaker 4: a few progressive activists that they're putting stuff. I say
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  Speaker 4: a few because actually this is like progressives upset with
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  Speaker 4: South Carolina and then it's like a Jacobin op ed
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  Speaker 4: and like one comment from Hassan Piker, but there's a
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  Speaker 4: few progress Yes, yes it was because I did my diligence,
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  Speaker 4: I started wating and I'm like, Okay, this headline is great. Anyway.
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  Speaker 4: There's been some grumbling that putting South Carolina first gives
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  Speaker 4: an advantage to more moderate establishment candidates, But we'll get
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  Speaker 4: into all of this before we get into what we
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  Speaker 4: think about the proposed calendar. Do you guys want to
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  Speaker 4: talk about why this is such a big deal and
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  Speaker 4: how much you think the earliest state calendar matters.
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  Speaker 1: I'm just nostalgic for when we were in Iowa rigging
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  Speaker 1: the caucus for booting ensi and.
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  Speaker 2: This didn't work.
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  Speaker 1: This is the things we get.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we probably shouldn't have rigged it for him to
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  Speaker 3: only be revealed like four or five days later.
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  Speaker 4: But anyway, so much for Iowa tom misstep.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was got.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I think the early state calendar, in its
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  Speaker 3: totality just could not be more important. It's the whole
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  Speaker 3: ballgame from the Obama perspective, like Obama's nothing nomine if
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  Speaker 3: he doesn't win Iowa, because it gave us a huge
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  Speaker 3: momentum and it made people over the country believe that
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  Speaker 3: he could win. But also it taught us how to
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  Speaker 3: organize and we put in place those organizing practices in
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  Speaker 3: all the future caucas states and mopped up delegates againstillary
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  Speaker 3: Clinton as we went forward, so we kept paying out
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  Speaker 3: dividends during that long drawn out, awful primary process. The
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  Speaker 3: order will also determine, you know, what policy areas get highlighted, like,
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  Speaker 3: for example, Iowa being first meant that we talked about ethanol,
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  Speaker 3: probably far too much for far too long.
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  Speaker 4: That will now we may never talk about him again.
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  Speaker 3: It may not be as big of an issue we
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  Speaker 3: now of New Mexico, a southern border state. We'll see
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  Speaker 3: if immigration is more salient this time around. In Michigan,
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  Speaker 3: we'll probably hear about autos and unions. In Virginia, maybe
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  Speaker 3: doze is an issue again, right, you have a lot
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  Speaker 3: of government employees in northern Virginia. It also gives more
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  Speaker 3: power to different demographics and you know types of voters,
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  Speaker 3: older voters.
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  Speaker 4: White voters, black voters. Right.
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  Speaker 3: So that's been a big part of the conversation that
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  Speaker 3: we'll get into in a minute. But I do think
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  Speaker 3: like figuring this out is essential and it really does
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  Speaker 3: help and harm specific candidates.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm a counterpoint. I don't know that I agree
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  Speaker 1: with that, So I think you're right. The schedule in
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  Speaker 1: early two thousand and eight was very important, in part
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  Speaker 1: because Iowa was perfect for Barack Obama to prove that
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  Speaker 1: despite being a black candidate, he could put together a
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  Speaker 1: coalition of white voters that were hyper engaged, and we
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  Speaker 1: built a great organization on the ground. Had Hillary not
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  Speaker 1: had a surprising win in New Hampshire, it probably would
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  Speaker 1: have been over sooner. But that allowed the race to
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: go back and forth. But it's interesting is the way
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  Speaker 1: the race ultimately goes back and forth. It was told
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  Speaker 1: as a momentum and narrative, but in reality it was
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  Speaker 1: often more about the demographics of the voters in each state,
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  Speaker 1: kind of ricocheting back and forth, as like the fundamental
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  Speaker 1: dynamics of the race didn't shift. On the other side,
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  Speaker 1: you have Joe Biden.
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  Speaker 5: Becoming the nominee.
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  Speaker 1: He loses in Iowa, he loses in New Hampshire, but
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  Speaker 1: he says, wait for South Carolina. He's able to overcome
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  Speaker 1: those early losses because they had set expectations, and he
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  Speaker 1: comes out of South Carolina with so much momentum that
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  Speaker 1: he's able to clean up on Super Tuesday and become
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  Speaker 1: the nominee. So I do think it's important to me.
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  Speaker 1: What I think is the most important is where the
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  Speaker 1: actual swing states fall in the schedule, right where Michigan is,
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  Speaker 1: for example. But sometimes I think we get into this
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  Speaker 1: idea of the order of states mattering, when in reality
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  Speaker 1: it's partly about the order, but also about managing expectation
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  Speaker 1: and how campaigns fare over the next few contacts. It
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  Speaker 1: can winnow, but I don't know if it's like a.
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  Speaker 3: Differs such as orders New States too. I mean, like
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  Speaker 3: let's say if it was instead of South Caroline, Atlina
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  Speaker 3: and Nevada, Newmpshire was Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona. Like, that's sort
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  Speaker 3: of what I'm getting. He having these new states in
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  Speaker 3: there will just change the issues and demographics.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's two factors here. There's order and then there's states, right,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I do think I think you can make
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  Speaker 4: an argument that order doesn't matter as much as everyone
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  Speaker 4: thinks it does. I think that which states, the composition
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  Speaker 4: of the states in the early window is hugely important.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I was getting in a speciality of them.
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  Speaker 4: And especially now that there are five, I think you're
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  Speaker 4: probably going to have a slower momentum build over time.
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  Speaker 4: But if you have five states in the early window
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  Speaker 4: before Super Tuesday, and the two last states are very
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  Speaker 4: big states like Michigan and Virginia, both of which are
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  Speaker 4: also going to be competitive states in the general election,
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  Speaker 4: especially in Michigan, you are going to know a lot
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  Speaker 4: by the time Super Tuesday rolls around about who can
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  Speaker 4: put together a campaign that could win almost any demographic
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  Speaker 4: group in any region of the country. And like, I
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  Speaker 4: find it hard unless now we Democrats award delegates in
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  Speaker 4: each of these states proportionally, unlike Republicans do a lot
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: of winter take all states, so they might who knows,
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  Speaker 4: they might change that for twenty eight as well on
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  Speaker 4: their side, So you could see a situation Super Tuesday
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  Speaker 4: and beyond where it's like an Obama and Hillary fighting
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  Speaker 4: out a delegate battle. But I tend to think that
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  Speaker 4: having five states go and that many states and that
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  Speaker 4: many votes in that period of time is going to
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  Speaker 4: pretty much tell you who's the who's down by the
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  Speaker 4: time you get to Super two, right.
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  Speaker 1: Right, they all like by the time you get through
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  Speaker 1: those early states, you've been in whiter states, you've been
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  Speaker 1: in Latino states, you've been a state with a bigger
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  Speaker 1: African American population. By time you get to Michigan, you
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  Speaker 1: have some like sort of prominent urban areas that have
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  Speaker 1: been you know, strongholds for Democrats. You've gotten a good
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: sense of the entire picture. Could you achieve that same
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: thing if you did swap into Texas? In Oklahoma, Texas
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  Speaker 1: is a big Hispanic population, It's also a border state.
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  Speaker 1: Oklahoma is a very white electorate, right, might bring out
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: more hyper engaged Democrats in the same way that say,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: like in Iowa would in the past. Whatever, I think
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  Speaker 1: the part of the reason South Carolina was able to
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  Speaker 1: play such a big role in twenty twenty. Is Biden
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  Speaker 1: said explicitly, wait for South Carolina, you can't become a demo.
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  Speaker 1: You will not be there will not be a Democratic
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  Speaker 1: president who doesn't have strong support among African Americans. And
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  Speaker 1: then he wins so handily in that state that kind
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  Speaker 1: of proves that case, and he kind of is able
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  Speaker 1: to march onto the nomination after in.
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  Speaker 4: Terms of how much it matters, though, Like you got
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: to imagine every single campaign in waiting is after Friday's
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  Speaker 4: announcement is like now finally starting to plan their strategy.
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  Speaker 4: I mean like it is everything for a campaign knowing,
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  Speaker 4: oh god, the state's go first and in order. It's
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  Speaker 4: like every decision is made around that.
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  Speaker 3: Where you travel, what operatives you hire, like yeah. And
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  Speaker 3: also there were people who are talking about waiting until
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  Speaker 3: after the midterms to figure this out.
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  Speaker 4: I was like, what are you talking about? You can't
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  Speaker 4: possibly do that. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: When I saw that, some of the progressives were like
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: sort of and I had the same things. Who's actually
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: upset about this? But you know, oh, South Carolina is
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: a boon to more moderate candidates. Well, that's sort of
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: about what you're saying about the African American electorate not
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: being as far to the left as some like the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: more sort of the wider part of the of the
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Democratic base. But now for the first time, you might
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: have instead of candidates spending six months in you know,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Atkrew White Iowa, you're going to have people spending months
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: and months and months in South Carolina. And it's like, well,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: that's a great opportunity for the left to prove that
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  Speaker 1: they can appeal beyond their sort of online and sort
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: of more less diverse audience.
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  Speaker 4: With Iowa and New Hampshire finally being dethroned as the
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: first two contests, how do you guys think that changes
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  Speaker 4: the race and strategy of these campaigns.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's just worth point of the Both states actually
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: have laws on the books mandating their place in the order.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: The Iowa law says the caucuses have to be held
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: at least eight days before any other primary or caucus.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: Iowa officials currently want to punt on that fight until
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  Speaker 3: after the mid terms for whatever reason, but we'll see
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: what they do. I kind of don't think they're going
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: to fight it. New Hampshire is going to go down
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: swinging in part because you have a Republican governor who
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: is not going to agree to move it, I don't
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: think the day of the primary. So then they're going
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: to be asked to pay for a party funded primary.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: And if they don't, I mean there's real consequences. I mean,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: if a state party refuses to abide by the rules,
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: the penalties are now they lose all their delegates at
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: the twenty twenty eight convention. That's up from losing fifty
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: percent of your delegates, and they have to pay a
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: two hundred and seventy thousand dollars fine and lose DNC
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: membership voting rights until the fine is paid off. So
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: that's pretty serious for them.
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: And there's penalties for the candidates.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: It's even worse for the candidates. You lose all your
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: delegates from the entire early state nominating window and you're
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: prohibited from a participating in DNC rule DEDATA.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: So New Hampshter's going to put on a party run
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: a separate party run primary, or else they are just
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: going to take themselves out of the early state window altogether.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: That those are the only two options because no one's
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: going to deal with these panels. The state of New Hampshire,
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: the candidates, and so I think what they're all grumbling
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: about right now, and what I saw like Kathy Sullivan,
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: who was a former New Hampshire Democratic Party chairwoman, because
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: I had asked about this on Twitter and she replied,
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: She's like, look, we have we're trying to spend money
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: to elect two members of Congress in twenty twenty six
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: and a senator to hus members and a senator, and
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: now we're going to need all this money to put
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: on a primary like that is a big undertaking. So
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: I'm sure maybe some of this will be bargaining to
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: try to get some money from the DNC, which we'll
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: get to just to put on the primary. But that
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: is a big it's you know, it's a big deal.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: There's a possibility if New Hampshire bows out because they
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: don't have the money and they don't want to do this.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: The only other Northeastern state that applied that would slide
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: into that slot is Delaware, which is kind of interesting.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Do you guys like where the DNC landed on this
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: group of states in this particular order.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I would have liked more swing states, but look, I
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: am not maybe like I just I have so much
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: PTSD from two thousand and seven two thousand and eight,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: where the calendar was treated as being this very, very
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: important thing, when in reality, the experience of working for
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton in that period was she would always do
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: do well enough that she could justify going to the
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: next contest, but not so well as to change the
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: dynamics of the race. And to me, I'm glad, like
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: I'm glad Michigan's there, I think it is actually good
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: that you no longer have this situation where the first
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: two contests that draw so much attention in time for
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: so long are these very white places that don't reflect
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: the broader Democratic electorate. But beyond that, I do think
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: in the end, part of the strategy is where you compete,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: but also part of it is just how you tell
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: a story about where and when you're going to do best.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: So I look, I'm sad to see iowall go because
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: I know all the downsides of Caucasus, We've talked about them,
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: but there is it forces you an invest in organizing,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: It forces you. It incentivizes a nicer brand of politics
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: because you want to be your opponent's second choice for reasons,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: don't have to get into so I think that will
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: be missing that. Actually I reached out to a bunch
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: of people who worked in politics just to like get
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: their opinions on what they'd seen, and their responses range
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: from it's good and I like it, it's impossible to
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: know yet because of New Hampshire too, this is going
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: to boom around, boomerang back on us and be a disaster.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: So what was the argument for that that, Uh, it's
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: just going to be messy. New Hampshire are going to
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: screw everything up once we get to Northern Virginia. You're
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: going to have like DC you know, media market spend,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: people like making a big determination and it will just
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: kind of be a mess and who the hell knows
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: about what New Mexico WI whatever, Like just one person's
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: opinion I felt. My personal take was I feel like
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: the DNC and the RBC did a pretty good job
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: of navigating a very challenging process. I don't think the
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: New Hampshire piece is solved in any way, share or form.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: I think we're whistling past the graveyard on that, and
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: that's something that's going to have to give there.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: The I think is gonna get what do you mean like.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: I just I think New Hampshire is going to fuck around.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: They don't have the money to pay for this Aready
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: run process, and the Republican governor is not going to
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: move the state. So I just I don't know what's
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: going to happen here.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: I think, can you end up with a primary where
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: just the the candidates don't participate? Right? I mean Joe
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Biden won New Hampshire with a write in and they
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: head the delegates didn't right, Like it was like that.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: No, but that's it. It's either they find the money
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: to put on the primary or they're out. There's no
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: other out, you know what I'm saying, Like that's and
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: it's just it's going to be up to them to
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: figure out if they can.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Get the money or you have the DNC threats work.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: No major candidates actually go there. But there's super packs
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: muck around in New Hampshire and stage right in efforts
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: so they can show strength and they get new.
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: Cycles at it.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Right, So there's all these weird ways that.
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: They can kind of mess around. So who knows.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: On South Carolina, I mean, I think South Carolina being first,
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: I agree with you, like South Carolina first isn't like
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: a massive change. I think it's a reflection that black
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: voters are the base of the party, either half of
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: the primary elector right there. I think the talk of
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: what you always hear from South Carolina people is we
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: have the track record of actually picking the nominee with
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: who we vote for, and like, that's true, but that's
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: because they went the field was winnowed, and then it
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: gets to South Carolina, so they voted for you know,
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: South Carolina voters picked Obama, Clinton and Biden. My guest
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: is South Carolina will now just kind of be the
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: winn A War. It will be the filter function that
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Iowa New Hampshire were. I do agree, it's a real
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: bomber that. It's just it's not about ground state like
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: you do all this organizing in these early states and
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: then the candidates never go back to them.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And look, the reason
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: that is is because the laws are already in the books,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: and if you look for other states with heavy populations
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: of black voters to go first, you have to find
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: a state with a Democratic trifectus. They can move the
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: primary date and it's a whole mess. So I sort
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: of feel the same about South Carolina, but I think
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: they did. I think for South Carolina going first, they
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: did a really good job of then balancing out the
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: rest of the calendar because you have I mean, they
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: have diversity, all kinds of diversity, right, racial diversity, geographic diversity,
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: ideological diversity. I also like that the first four states
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: are small states, and so the kind of retail can
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: painting that you got in Iowa New Hampshire, and this
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: will be true if Delaware takes New Hampshire spot you get.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: So you'll have South Carolina, which is a relatively small state, Nevada,
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: same thing. New Mexico, which is a brand new to
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: this process, which is pretty small. I just don't know
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: what to think of that one yet. It's New Mexico
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: is interesting. So you have in that state. New Mexico's
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: overall voting eligible population is forty five percent Hispanic. That
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: is the largest percentage of any state in the country.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: They also have a significant Native American population. Is that's
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: the first time that we have in early state with
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: a pretty significant Native American population. Like you said, tell me,
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: it's a border state, which I think is great. We
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: have a democratic trifect there so they should be able
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: to move that no problem. It is more non college
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: the voters there than some of the other states, which
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: I also think is helpful because you're going to want
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: to prove that you can win non college voters and
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: not just not just highly college educated voters. That you
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: get a New like you get a New Hampshire.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: What is the different function than of like in their
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: theory that Nevada plays versus New Mexico's.
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: No.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Mada also has a big Latino population, it is compared
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: to other states a lower percentage of college voters. Also
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: has Las Vegas, which is a huge important center for unions.
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: Right is that?
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: What is the different?
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: What is the what is other than just this is
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: how it shook out, And I'm glad. I liked having
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Nevada early when we were there. That was one of
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: the last trips we took before COVID.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: Look, I I was on record saying this last time,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: But boy am I happy. We'll be spending a lot
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: of time in it.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Will have no choice, we have to go. Sorry, So
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: what is what is in there? What is the theory
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: of the different role in New Mexico versus Nevada plays
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: New Mexico is a border state.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't even know if there's a theory
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: of that being different. What I took it as is
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: North Nevada and South Carolina were battling for first, and uh,
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: you know that South Carolina party chair was like, well,
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: if if Nevada goes first, what does that state of
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: black voters that they don't matter as much? And I
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: think you pointed up to me love it. So does
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: that mean the reverse is true? Then the Latino voterstma
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: and so now by having two states with significant Latino populations,
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: and Nevada also has a a significant black population as well,
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: not as much as South Carolina, but it does, then
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: you get then you basically have two states in the
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: early window that have pretty heavy Latino populations.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I'll make another case for this now that I think
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: about it. South Carolina, Nevada, New Mexico. These are states
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: that are not that cold in November, December, January.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: That is a very that is cool.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: That's what we want for us.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: It's just going to be New Hampshire and I guess Michigan.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: Michigan will be cold too.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: It'll be very cool.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: What do you guys make of the like the South
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: Carolina disadvantages progressives a progressive candidate.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably right.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: I mean that the South Carolina Democratic primary electorate, it's older,
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: more moderate than Iowa, New Hampshire or Nevada. About forty
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: percent of South Carolina Democratic primary voters were college graduates.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: About half identified as liberal, which is less than earlier contest.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: This is I think twenty twenty exit polls. They're more
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: likely to be working class, more likely to go to
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: church once a week older. Biden won South Carolina twenty
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: twenty because you won with black voters, but he did
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: especially well with black voters over sixty. He and Bernie actually,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: I think tied with black voters under thirty. So I
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: do think it's likely to be demographically set up to
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: be more moderate.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: As we were saying before, like if you're saying that
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: you think South Carolina is a way to put a
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: roadblock in front of progressives, you are saying that a
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: black electorate is a roadblock in front of progressive Now.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I think the point that would be made in response is,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: as Tommy said, a generational thing, not a demographic thing.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: But of course it's both, and we have seen like,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: you know, you see this in Michigan playing out that
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: one of a duel's challenges is trying to kind of
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: build support in the black community. And I feel like
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: this is an opportunity for the left if they want
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: to start building a bigger coalition that can win in
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: contest like this, right, Like because South Carolina that is
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: where Bernie goes down.
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: In twenty twenty.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Like, if that's that is, that is the test, and
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: it may not happen this election. You're right, it may
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: be harder because of this. But also at the same time,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: even if if South Carolina was third, fourth, or fifth,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: this test was always there. The candidate that that wins
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: black voters is going to be the nominated.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: Well, this is where I think that the order matters
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: maybe less or at least can cut both ways. Because
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: let's say South Carolina is does advantage more moderate candidates. Well,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: then you know, so a fifth of South Carolina primary
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: voters describe themselves as very liberal, which is relatively low.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: And then you go to Nevada and a third of
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: voters there describe themselves as very liberal. So like, if
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: you're a progressive, lefty candidate and you don't do well,
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: in South Carolina you hang on and you go to Nevada,
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: you go to New Hampshire or Delaware, you go to
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: you try, you know, like so there's there's basically there's
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: a state on the map in that early window for
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: any kind of ideal, ideological flavor or you know, different
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: kind of voter that you can get. So I don't
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: worry as much about that. I wouldn't worry if I
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: was a progressive candidate or if I was an establishment
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: candidate on like the order that way.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: One under discussed change though, is Nevada going from a
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: caucas state to a primary state, which I think isidically
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: to disadvantage progressives potentially because there's you know, some progressives
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: tend to organize well in these caucas states, and unions
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: tend to do better than unions tend to do really
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: well in caucas states, which interesting to see how that
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: kind of cuts I don't know yet.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the fact that there's no Caucasus means it's disadvantaging.
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: I mean that that's yeah, Progressives do better in Caucasus
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: for sure, but even without the Caucus, and Nevada will
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: have like a more liberal primary life for sure than
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: South Carolina. Dan made an argument in his Saturday message
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: box the South Carolina going first massively advantages Kamala Harris.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: What do you guys think about that?
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: So I saw that and I thought, huh, that's interesting
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: from Dan, And then I went back and looked at
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: the South Carolina polling from before Kamala ended her campaign,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: and she drops out in the end of twenty nineteen
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: before any votes are cast, But in the closing weeks
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: of the year, there were polls that had her somewhere
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: between say, five to twelve percent. I think she sort
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: of like ticking down a bit as we got closer,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: and so.
• 24:17
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I was like, maybe that's true, right, But part of
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: the reason she ended her campaign when she did is
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: she just wasn't gaining traction, even in a state like
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: South Carolina.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you think some mean?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I think you know.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: Basically, the argument is that black voters are half the
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: elector in South Carolina, that Kamala Harris has the most
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: support from black voters by far in polls, she has
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: sixty nine percent favorability with black voters plus forty two.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: You're right that like her.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Presidential run in twenty twenty did not end well in
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: South Carolina or any state, But that was just a
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: bad campaign that didn't end well for her, And I
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: think four years of being VP probably changed a lot
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: of things. I think certainly it look does it make
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: her the front runner? Yes, But being the front runner's
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: double edged sword, because the early States are not necessarily
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: about winning all the early states. It's about expectations, management
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: and exceeding expectations in the early States. And when you're
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: the early on front runner and everyone assumes you're gonna
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: romp in South Carolina for the following reasons, it puts
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: a big old bulls eye on your back and the
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: media looks for better, more interesting stories to tell for them.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: That's what I thought. And it's like, as soon as
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: South Carolina's over, now you've got four other states for
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: that month, including two very big ones at the end.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: And does anyone think that the media, like, no matter
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: how good of a campaign she's running, is going to
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: be like, yeah, it's the Kamala Harris front runner story
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: all through February. Like that's just not gonna happen.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: So it goes from like, oh, wow, South Carolina advantages
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: is Kamala Harris to Kamala Harris is the only candidate
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: that has a state. If she loses, it's over.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: Right, that's true, definitely true. Well, the other thing we
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: haven't talked about is if Wes Moore runs or Rafael Warnock,
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: like she's not the only black candidate that might run
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: for president, and then you could have black candidates splitting votes.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: You could have and then you know, it's interesting, Like
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: the two things that you need to know before we're
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: starting to think about how the race is going to
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: go and plan your strategy as a campaign. One is the
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: early state calendar, which is now locked. Two is the
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: composition of the field exactly. You need to know who's running,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: who's gonna split what vote, how they're going to like
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: that that part we don't know yet. But like there
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: is a situation too where if it's just Kamala Harris,
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: if she's the only black candidate running and she's doing
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: really well with black voters in South Carolina, then because
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: the state is more moderate overall, and you have a
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: bunch of white moderates running aside from Kamala Harris, then
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: they're all splitting a vote and then maybe the progressive
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: candidate or two does even better. So just and that's
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: just an example. We have no idea.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, I do think like you know, some
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: of the kind of like Pete Budajeedge, who has historically
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: had a really hard time with black voters, like it's
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: probably now at a disadvantage. Bernie Sanders, were he to
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: run again, was probably a bit of a disadvantage for
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: the reasons we just discussed. A lot of the conventional
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: wisdom is also that AOC came out of this new
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: primary process helped because she does well with latinos and
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: with labor. We'll see if she runs, we'll see if
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: that's true. But I'm mostly with you guys that like
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: a lot of the early attempts to kind of you know,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: handicap this race are just silly.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: We don't know what it's going to look like. Ron Brownstein,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: who digs into these demographics and them better than most,
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: he said that the only one through line for all
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: of the states is the candidate who's going to be
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: able to do best with black voters and white college
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: educated voters as well, is probably going to do the
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: best because aside from Nevada and New Mexico, you don't
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: have a lot of states with non college big non
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: college populations. And he was like, you know, last last
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: candidate who have done that to bring that coalition together
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: is Barack Obama. Right. It's the white Libs and the
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: black Democrats. So we'll see.
• 28:00
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• 30:29
  Speaker 4: Speaking of the DNC, seems like Ken Martin had a
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: bad Sunday. Uh The New York Times notice and The
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: Bulwark all ran stories about what The Times calls the
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: troubled broke Democratic Party. The Time story was certainly the
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: newsiest and most damning for Martin. It includes a story
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: about him throwing his phone at the desk of a
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: junior staffer, which resulted in a formal HR complaint, and
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: another where Martin freaked out on a call about the
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: party's finances because he thought his staff was planning a
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: coup and they were like, no, we're just talking about
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: the money.
• 30:58
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: No coup sounds like just the usual leave it freciating
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: the name.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: But the real meat of the story is the party's
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: financial struggles under Martin, which are quite real. We already
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: knew that the DNC is two million dollars in debt
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: after taking out a fifteen million dollar loan, and more
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: than a one hundred million dollars behind the RNC and fundraising,
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: but apparently the situation is so bad that the DNC
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: is asking vendors not to invoice them until after the midterms,
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: and for the first time, the DNC will not be
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: transferring any money to the House and Senate committees to
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: help them win the midterms. According to the Times, quote
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: party officials are now reckoning with the fact that they
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: must begin to repay one point sixty six million dollars
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: of the loan's principle per month starting in January.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, pretty nice building will be shame. Is something more
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: to happen to it?
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: What'd you guys make of these stories? Did anything in
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: them make you more worried than you already were?
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Can I just read a great entry in one of
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: my favorite parts of an insider story like this, which
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: is a leak about leaks quote. It pisses me off
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: when I see leaks out of this building, mister Martin said,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: according to four people who had heard the remarks, adding
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: no more. I know that that reporters like this is
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: gonna so funny.
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: Then no more.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: It's just a brutal thing. Leaks about leaks. I love it.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: I love it. It's tough.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: So I reached out some of the DNC staff Ken
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Martin's defenders. I can offer that perspective. I don't know
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: if you guys want to start with reflections on the story.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: No, no, you can, We'll reflect after you, Okay.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: So what they would say is, what's in bursting a
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: video over here? Let's hear then then thank you for
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: doing the work. I'm great grateful to it.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you make one phone call, you a Woodward in
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: this building.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: So they would point out that through June of twenty
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: twenty six, the DNC raised more money than the DNC
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: did in the entire twenty seventeen twenty eighteen cycles.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: I love that talking a comparable period.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when Democrats did not hold the White House, they
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: also argue they had more cash on hand than the
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: DNC did in twenty nineteen. So their argument is the
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: media narrative is that this is like some historic disaster,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: when in fact, like there's recent precedent that there actually
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: have improved upon. They would also say, like, let's look
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: at the investments or we're making. The DNC gave one
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars to the Mississippi Democratic Party right before
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: a special election that broke a Republican super majority.
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: Obviously good thing.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: The DNC gave money to South Carolina and now, for
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: the first time in fifty years, South Carolina recruited a
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: candidate to run in every state house race, state wide race,
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: and congressional race. So that there's sort of a talking
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: point where in Ken substack about this where he's like,
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: we ninety percent of the races we've overperformed or won.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: I think that's taking credit for the political environment and
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: people being mad at Donald Trump. But you know it's evidence, right,
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: It's results matter now. I also talked to some people
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: who worked in the DNC in that period of twenty
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: seven to twenty eighteen period for Tom Perez, and they'll say,
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: the thing you have to remember is that everyone hated
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: the DNC in twenty seventeen because they blamed them for
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Hillary losing, and they blamed them for Bernie getting screwed.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: So money wasn't really coming into doors.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, they walked into the building with seventeen million
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: dollars in debt. The major fundraising team had been laid off,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: so they were had a standing start, and at least
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: thirty million dollars of Ken's fundraising total was Kamala Harris
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: raising money to retire her own debt. So I think
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: those people would also conceide, like, yeah, that twenty seventeen
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: twenty eighteen period fundraising wasn't good, but comparing to the
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: not good period is still bad.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: Also, they still in that election did transfer money to
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: the House and Senate committees, which they're not going to
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: do this year.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Well it's also, hey, in this game that we're losing,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: we actually have more goals than the previous team. So well,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: you're not playing against the DNC from twenty eighteen, you're
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: playing against the Republicans in twenty twenty six.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: So the last point I think I'm just make in
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: response to the Ken Too, is like, Okay, you're telling
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: us you've raised all this money, but you're still two
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: million in debt. Like that suggests mismanagement and misspending, you
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: know what I mean. It's like a double the talking
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: point is a double edge story.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my my feeling about it, which is like
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: before sort of diving into all these stories like oh
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: there's a massive fundraising problem at the DNC. We're being
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: out raised by a huge amount, and then you read
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: the defense, it's like, wow, actually you know it's we're
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: out of power, but they're they raise the fundraising is
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: actually comparable, if not better. Okay, then where did all
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the money go out? And then the test is if
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: you really are going to say that we've been it's
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: not a fundraising issue. We've been using the money to
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: kind of build infrastructure. Well, then it's incumbent upon you
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: to show how that's going to benefit Democrats in the
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: mid terms and beyond, and then you think, well, hold on,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: that was the strategy. Where So right now Democratic candidates
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: have been out raising. Republican candidates are in the Republican
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: House Committee and the Republican Senate Committee are out raising,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: not not to the same degree as the DNC, R
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: and C, but are outraising the candidate committees. And the
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: RNC has over one hundred million dollars more on hand
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: than the DNC does. Now, before the Supreme Court ruled
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: that the party parties could spend at the same lower
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: rate as candidates, there's an argument to say, you know what,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: the DNC should raise money, get it out the door
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: for building infrastructure, focus fundraising for the candidates. Those candidates
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: can then buy ads at a cheaper rate than the parties.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: But that advantage is now gone, that doesn't exist anymore,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: and so they have more money in their super PACs,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: their their candidate, their their candidate committees have more money,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: and the RNC has more money, and all of that
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: is just puts puts the Republicans at a huge advantage
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: for buying ads over the Democrats. And so then you say, well,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: h that is the statuok, regardless of what money went
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: out the door. Like, that is the situation right now.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: So what do you do to get out of the hole.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: The answer isn't to point to how much worse it
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: could have been or how much different It is like
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: we are behind. How do you close that gap?
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and doesn't seem like there's any answers on that
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: from the from the DNC. And it's not like they
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: are sort of denying any of the stories.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: You didn't throw the phone. It slid next to someone
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: else who didn't own the phone.
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: Rufus Gifford who we all know Rufus He was on
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: the Obama campaign. He was the finance director of the
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: Dncful near you. He worked there for eight years. He
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: wrote the substack today. He loves the place he worked.
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: He was the finance director on Obama's reelect, on Biden's reelect.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: So he's been around for a long time. He didn't
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: have a dog in the fight on Ken versus Ben
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: or anything else. But he said in his substect post,
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: the DNC is spiraling towards irrelevance, and that Ken Martin
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: is a good man with good intentions, but simply not
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: meeting this critical moment, and his chairmanship is beyond saving.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And wait till that email goes out where he says
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: to everybody coming to that big DNC meeting, one slice
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: of pizza per person. That's all we can do right now.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: No second slices at this meeting. I was just just
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: we cannot afford it.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: I once worked on a campaign where our paychecks were
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: delayed until the next year to make like the FEC
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: report look better, so we had more cash on hand,
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: and by the way, it didn't suggest a healthy campaign,
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: and the things were going well. But then a reporter
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: called and asked one of our spokespeople if staff had
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: been asked to delay their paychecks to make our FEC
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: report look better. And this flag said no, because we
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: had just been told that we would not be getting
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: paid over Christmas. We were not asked, So yeah, that
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: was a memory lane.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think the question I was like, what
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: can be done about this? Because we're all in this
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: situation together, We're all, you know, like we all need
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: the DNC to be successful in the Democratic Party, to
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: be successful. You know, there is a scenario we were
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: talking to someone where once we have a nominee, the
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: nominee of the party installs their person to the DNC
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: and you know, tries to go around Ken and raises
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: all the money. But you know, between now and getting
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: a nominee, we need to figure like the party needs
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: to figure something out on like how to raise the
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: money that we're gonna need, especially with the Supreme Court decision,
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: as you said, love it where now the Democratic National Committee,
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: it's going to be really really important for them to
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: have a ton of money before there's even a nominee.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: This is a you know, like this is the terrible
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: fundraising and the autopsy report and the interview with you,
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: this is all compounded into a crisis of confidence with
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: DNC leadership and it is just not going to improve.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: And it's time to make a change, I think, and
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: I think Chuck Schumer and Hackeing Jeffries need to go
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: to Ken Martin and say we got to do something
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: different here, and they need to get someone else in
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: there that just has confidence of big donors of parties,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: et cetera. And yeah, like we it just can't overstate
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: how important this Supreme Court ruling is in terms of
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: erasing the Democratic Party advantage that we used to have
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: because small dollars would flow to our candidates who would
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: get preferential rates on ad bys, and then you'd have
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Republican super PACs having to spend ten times the same
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: amount for the same ad Now that advantage is gone, yep,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: and we are.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: That just makes a whole even deeper.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: And so like like if I'm Chuck Schumer, like you're
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: trying to win a set of majority, if you're hockeing Jeffries,
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: you're trying to become speaker, this is existential for.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Them, I mean beyond those because for them, it's like,
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: you know, the midterms are in a couple of months,
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: that's that ship is sailed. Every Democrat running for president,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: every one of these campaigns is in their interest to
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: like BacT together on this, to like all go to these.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: I don't think it should have saled for the midterms.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: I think you could get a new person in tomorrow
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: who could bring like a bunch of big donors to
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: send a message and raise one hundred million dollars in
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: like a couple of weeks.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: I really like think although I think on that though.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: The only reason I say that is because if yes,
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: but then why not just send the money right to
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: the d SEC and the d triples c. There's no
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: need to give the DNC money before the midterms.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Sure is again like I'm taking Ken's work like I
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: read your long stop stack. But if you look at
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: like the like what his claim is, then there's actually
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: is a.
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: Fair amount of money coming in.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: And so what I don't understand is like there's this
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: sort of like hand ringing, Oh, there's nothing we can
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: do before November if you're if there's this little amount
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: of money on hand, but like what something like eight
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: point six million is coming in every month at the lead,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Like why can't there be a change in priorities where
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: you kind of do say from this point forward, we
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: are going to be devoting these resources towards winning in November,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: and this is the amount that's going to be directed
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: towards this as opposed to whatever kind of the longer
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: term kind of money that's going out the door per month.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Is Like, that's what I don't That's what I came
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: away I was confused by.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: There's just there's a vicious cycle and you know, Wickler was,
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: as usual, very generous and kind, didn't want to shot
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: over Ken Martin. But you know, when there are stories
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: like these, it just deepens the problem because now who's
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: going to want to give money to the d n
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: C after reading stories like this? Right, like, and so
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: it's a it's a vicious cycle. I did think one
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: one more funny moment from the New York Times story
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: is he's like, he's he's got this staff meeting and
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: he's trying to like pluck everyone up, and he says,
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: my success is your success. So the weaker I am,
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: the weaker all of you are, which is true.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: It's just a weird thing to say to your stats.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this seems so inspiring. I don't know, that's the
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: best pep talk I've ever heard.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think it's a get through. Like
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: the other thing too, is any like if you're a
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: presidential Canada starting next year and they're like, well, what
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: do you think of Ken Martin? You would just like,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: you know, the president will choose a new DNC chair,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: right like, we will have a better you know, they're
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: all going to say they're going to choose a new
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: dna C chair. So it's just like, let's move that
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: up a one, let's get this, Let's get through the
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: mint and swamp this guy out. Yeah.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just like when when we swapped Kamala for Biden.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: I think the DNC raised like a billion dollars in
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: one hundred days. You know, there's a lot they could
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: do itsrift, we were to make a change, I think
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: you know what. In Ken's substack, he says we must
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: communicate and organize year round. While one of the things
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: that we learned in this New York Times story is
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: that after the Pat American interview, Ken has only done
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: like one local TV hit.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: So I'm not saying people in Erie got.
• 42:43
  Speaker 6: Now.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: It is primarily a fundraising job, right, We don't expect
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: him out doing to be out doing message events. But
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: Rufus Skifford then his substack made the point that when
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: the DNC chair does a lot of TV that gets shared,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: that gets seen by donors, it makes them want to
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: donate and be involved and kind of like keeps.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: You in the mix.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: And then also you have like the DNC has got
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: a lot of great staff and they must feel beyond demoralized,
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: and they're supposed to be doing things like year around,
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: you know, research and comms and digital on Republicans, they're
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: doing mobilization. They have this big like Creator program.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: You know, the RBC.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: The Rules Committee just such a really good job on
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: the calendar, and.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: You need more hype reels for ken Get and it's
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: just like Creators. I just feel bad for this team
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: of people, not just because the phones are flying, but because,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: like you feel like your work is getting denigrated in
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: the news all the time, and you don't have the
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: leadership you need and you know it's important, and like
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: it just must be frustrating not to be able to
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: fix it.
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: Just because the phones are flying.
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• 47:19
  Speaker 4: So Michigan's in the early state lineup because it remains
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: one of the most critical swing states, and this false
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: Senate race there is going to be one of the
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: most hotly contested. The primary already is hotly contested. Trump
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: with there on Monday to tour a GM facility and
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: appear alongside Mike Rodgers, the Republican nominee for Senate, who
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: will face off against either Abdul elsa Ed or Hailey Stevens,
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: though neither were mentioned during Trump's speech. He did, however,
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: go hard at the DSA wing of the party.
• 47:44
  Speaker 6: If they're siding with the radical left communists taking.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Over the party.
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: They want, in other words, the normal socialists who can
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: destroy a country too, they're not going fast up. Communism
• 47:57
  Speaker 6: is the greatest threat to our country and history, including
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: even World War one, World War two, Pearl Harbor or
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: nine to eleven. I mean, this is a serious.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: Threat in that order, World War one, World War two,
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: Pearl Harbor, nine to eleven. It was like the normal socialist.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Then he caught in said he's like the normal socialists
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: who could also destroy the country normally.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: You gotta not forget that that's important to hit What
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: was that Cold War fever dream?
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Nonsense? Very weird. I was kind of surprised that Trump
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: held back from mentioning the Senate race. What do you
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: guys think that's about. I think he's suddenly a stickler
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: for the Hatch Act. It was an official event.
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't. I don't know.
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: Neither did Mike Rogers, Like I thought they would be.
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: I thought he would hit a duel.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: I thought it was all well, yeah, I mean, Abduall
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: wants a fight with Trump right now, right presumably Democrats
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: would love to watch Abduell be in a fight with
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Trump right now. So maybe the idea would be, if you,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: if you pick this fight, you're going to take attention
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: into the race. But they kind of want Abdul to
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: come out of the thing.
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: So I don't know.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: Well, that's the thing, right, Like what you'll hear from
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: Haley Stephens supporter is that the Republicans want to face
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: the duel because they think he's weak. If that were so,
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: you would think that they would elevate him in this
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: moment right before the primary. It's weird that they didn't.
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know why. I mean, it could just be
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: because Trump is dumb and forgot his name and like
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: you know, was supposed to do it as a communist red.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: And there is some evidence too that that they do
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: want that, because Mike Rodgers was like there was a
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: recording of Mike Rodgers on a call with Dinners saying like,
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: I think if it's a duel, were in good shape,
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: and so you know there is evidence for that. But
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: they it remarkably disciplined from from Donald Trump there, or
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: maybe it wasn't disciplined, Maybe you just forgot Maybe it doesn't.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Care, right, or is there any is there any argument
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: that Trump and Rogers think if they publicly pick a
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: fight with a Duel it helps Hailey Stevens?
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: Is there any can you make that argument?
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Like that's why I mean Rogers is behind the scenes
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: and the kind of kind of to try to be
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: like I'm excited about Abduel, which is a perfect thing
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: to help Haley Stephens.
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: It's not a public fight.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I don't know, I don't know.
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: They also might be thinking that if Hailey Stevens wins,
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: you know, they don't want to. They want to they
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: want to label them both as communists.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Right, they don't want to do it. Kemp treatment, Yeah.
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: Right, Hayley Stevens wins, They're not going to like, oh,
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: we really wanted to, you know, like they're gonna act
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: like she's as left wing as possible. Right, That's what
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: they do. Meanwhile, Abduel, who as you know, we're all
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: supporting in the race, was quoted in Playbook on Monday
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: morning telling donors on a private call, A lot of
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: these private calls, these zooms, you got to you gotta
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: get these zooms.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: They're not that private, no kidding.
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: So he was telling donors at a private call that
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: all the money and political power being used against him
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: makes him look like David against Goliath, presumably meeting both
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: Haley Stevens and Apek, and how if he wins, he'll
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: have a massive platform and will start primary e Senate moderates,
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: including John Fetterman. What'd you guys think of his assessment
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: of things.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, like, I say, this would love for abduel,
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: but I thought it was not good. You know, Like
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: my first argument would be, you gotta win the general
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: election first and then talk about this stuff like you're
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: spiking the football in the thirty yard line. Let's win
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: the primary. Let's win the general, then you can maybe
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: talk about twenty twenty eight.
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: If you want.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: Also, I'm sure what happened was he was trying to
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: pump up donors and supporters. But you have to know
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: this stuff is going to leak. It always leaks, and
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: the ogre comment is getting taken out of context like
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: people are.
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: So justin bie. He said, oh Sorr, I didn't mention
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: that he said this will help me put an ogre
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: on a.
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: Pike, right, which is about John Fetterman. People are suggesting
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: he was comparing Hailey Stevens to an ogre. It does
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: not sound like he was doing that in any way.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: But also, don't call John Fetterman an ogre. You know,
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: it's not helpful. I think it kind of plays into
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: this belief among a lot of Democrats that the left
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: wing of the party is far more focused on going
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: after moderate Democrats than Republicans. Let's I too find John
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Fetterman very frustrating on a lot of issues, but he's
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: an elected Democrat senator in a swing state. Let's beat
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: the Republicans first and talk about that. And I think
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: my other just like big picture comment for a duel
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: is take every sentence where you say I and replace
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: it with we. This campaign is not about you and
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: what you're going to do in twenty eight or whatever.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: It's about the movement. It's about what we are going
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: to do to make people's lives better, the issues we're
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: going to elevate, like the way you're going to fight
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: for Michigan. I just think it was it was not good.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the second interview, or this is the
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: second sort of Uh, the first was an interview, this
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: was least recording, But the second time we've gotten sort
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: of uh, this sort of tone for me mee. That
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Semaphore interview, I think was that at a similar level
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: of like I don't know, like hostility and kind of
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: uhh like grandiosity to it. But also it's punditry. And
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: as a rule, if you're a candidate and you're doing punditry,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: that is a mistake.
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: That is, if you think of the growth always with
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: the donors, but the donors. Everyone tree with the donors
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: is the worst set. It's just that's where it happens
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: all the time.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: That's where Mitt Romney says fifty two percent.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: Barack Obama says bitter guns and religion.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Like that, Like Hillary, I think Deplorables was the classic
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: was that was a fundraiser?
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, fundraisor.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: So so it's a common trap that you're sort of
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: like analyzing the electorate and if you're doing that as
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: a candidate, by the way, which is something he understands
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: in his interviews where he's actually very like he did
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: an interview with uh Dasha Burns and even she was like,
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: my god, you're on message throughout this entire thing, but
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: kind of lets loose one. I think he thinks he's
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: in prior it. The other part of it, too, though,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: is like it's got to be frustrating because you're campaign
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: against Hailey Stevens, who's getting all this attention for having
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: this awe shocks pure Michigan thing, and then Apax dropping
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: like thirty million dollars on their head. They're like, put
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: a sort of salad in in his fucking hands.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: Uh, we'll see, we'll see what the odds are. Yeah.
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: I think for progressive candidates that tend to do well
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: have a sunnier disposition. There is they do express anger,
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: of course, but there's a sunnier disposition. And what Abdul
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: has nailed is the liberal patriotism. And we saw that
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: with the when the protester Jake Lang, like you know,
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: interrupted one of his events and he talked in they
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: basically they shutted him out with the USA chan and
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: Dull give this speech. So he's got he's got that
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: part down. But you can't be also you have to look,
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: you have to be happy all the time and not
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: be uh and uh and not be hostile to your opponents. Yeah,
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: that's that's the key.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: I was like, there's something deeper that this is not
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: about Abdul. There is a like a bad faith critique
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: from the left that takes I think what is largely
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: a true argument about the influence of money and politics.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: And by the way, it's just for saying, like what's
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: happening in Michigan is fucking crazy. This is the biggest
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: outside spend by APAC. Ever, it's thirty maybe on any
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Senate race ever as in a primary, all being dumped
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: on his head like that is what is on television
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: and the ad like that. There's two ads that are
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: going around that are like that are just like really
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: manipulative to like say that like a duel is bad
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: for women, right, taking some quotes out of context. But
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: at the same time, like when Whitmer endorses Hailey Stevens,
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: it's because she's bought and sold, right, And like I
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: don't believe Gretchen Whitmer is bought and sold, and I
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: don't think most Democrats in Michigan believe Kretchen Whitmer is
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: like bought and sold.
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: She backed to Hailey Stevens because she probably thinks Hailey
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: Stevens is a better chance of winning.
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: That's it, And it doesn't help you probably to attack
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: in pretty personal terms, a very popular democrat in the
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: state you are trying to represent. And my guess, you
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: know there's some old bad blood there from twenty eighteen
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: when they ran against each other.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: But so when and when I'm doing.
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: Just got to eat shit. That's the whole that's that's
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: running for politics.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: And so like when Abdula is asked in that interview
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: about like whether he identifies as a socialist, he says,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I don't identity like what, and he actually won't answer
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: where he disagrees with Bernie and AOC and he says, like,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: I just don't identify as a socialist. I like appreciate
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: some version of I appreciate capitalism. I'm sorry, I'm just
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: going to be a nuanced guy. I'm a nuanced guy, right,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: but that nuance doesn't like especially I get why in
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: the heat of a primary. But like you know, when
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: like you say, the root of our housing problem is
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: is corporate money, When the root of this problem is
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: corporate money, it's just like I get why it works
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: on the stump, I get why it's a valuable way
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: of simplifying what's happening, but I think it starts to
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: feel I don't know, like uh like like turning this
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: race into like a black and white Manichean struggle, which
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: is what comes off in these private conversations.
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So. Trump also used the Michigan appearance to provide
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: an update on his uh on again, off again war
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: and Iran, which suddenly appears to be off again after
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: Trump threatened a massive attack last week. The US officials
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: told reporters that the shrinking supply of air defense systems
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: was at least partly responsible for the pause, which Trump,
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: of course blamed on Biden. We also find out this
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: weekend that the four service members who recently died in
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: the Around War are no longer listed in the Pentagon's
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: casualty count for the Around War. Instead, the Pentagon moved
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: the tally of their deaths to a new section generically
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: called Overseas Operations Casualties. They also updated the number of
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: injuries to over six hundred. Here's what Trump had to
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: say about the war on the flight to Michigan and
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: at his event there.
• 56:33
  Speaker 6: Well, Iron took a meeting over the last fourteen days
• 56:36
  Speaker 6: and the ass very nicely, please stop, let's me and
• 56:42
  Speaker 6: that's where we are right now.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: To see what happens.
• 56:45
  Speaker 6: When the fuel comes down, which it did for a
• 56:47
  Speaker 6: little while. Then they didn't behave and I had to
• 56:49
  Speaker 6: go back, and now they're behaving again.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like playing a banjo.
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: Is it like playing a banjo? It's like, in what
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: way is the around war like playing a banjo?
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: I think I know what that is.
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: Tell me.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: I think that what he is thinking of is the
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: song that goes back and forth from the film Deliverance,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: but a bum bum bum bum bum bum bumb but
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: a bum bum bum bum bum bum bum in the
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: film Deliverance.
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: I know, I know that that is what I'm still
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: struggling with.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: So back and forth, because it back and forth, it's
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: going to squeal like a pig in this one, I think,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: I think, I think, I think it's us fuck sucks.
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Tommy, What's what do you think? What's
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: what's going on right now?
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're losing the war.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: The Straight of Horror moves was once uncontested, and now
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: it's contested. And I think in the long run, Iran geographic,
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: you guys noticed on the map that's where it is
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: in the Straight of Horror Moose, So I feel like
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: they have the upper hand there. The New York Times
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: reported that American intelligence agencies believe that Iran's new Supreme leader,
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: Mushta Bahamane is far more interested than his father in
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: acquiring a nuclear weapon.
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: So that's good.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: That's not what JD.
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: Van said.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: I thought that they were becoming friends.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the father had sworn off nukes. There was a
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: fatwa against them. Obviously the people questioned that, but many
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: anealists thought it was a genuine sentiment. And now there's
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: quite an argument for getting a nuclear weapon. I think
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: the long term impact of the war as is is
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: like just it's going to be sporadic economic disruption for
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: a very long time potentially, and that increases the likelihood
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: of US service members getting killed or wounded. The same
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: goes for civilians and Iran, by the way, and anyone
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: living in the Gulf, you know, in a base where
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: the Iranians are firing at. I mean, people are getting
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: killed all the time.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: It is led.
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: There's just growing instability. I mean you're now noticing, like
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: the Huthis rebels are getting involved in the war where
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: before they had not. There's these reports that the Saudis
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: or the Amorades are directly engaging with Iran and firing
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: missiles or you know, bombs into their territory. So it's
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: just the war's metastasizing and growing. It's wildly expensive. You know,
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: we have Heseth and others going to Congress and they
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: want a one point five trillion dollars pentagon budget next year.
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's insane. And the munitions issue is a
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: really big, long term problem that you can't fix. There's
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: all these interceptor missiles, there's the FAD system, there's the
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: Patriot stockpile that's down by half. There's all these air
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: to air missiles that are running low. There's the Tea
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Lamb or Tomahawks that would be like there's all these
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: war games of US war with China where you run
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: out of Tomawk missiles in like a week with the
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: full stockpile, and now we're way down on those. And
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: in many cases these cost millions and millions of dollars
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: each and they can take as long as twenty thirty
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: to replenish them. So it just feels like everything he's
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: done has sort of made our posture weaker, both in
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: the Gulf and Visa v. China, which Trump ran on
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: telling us was the big geostrategic problem going forward.
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: And now one of the political problems of any war,
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: which is US service members dying and being injured. Now
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: they're handling that by just deciding to do some creative
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: accounting where they hide the death from US for as
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: long as they can, or the injuries or then now
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: they're listing them. Listing them is overseas operations casualties is despicable. Yeah,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: it really is.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Like the options of well, he can escalate, right, It's
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: actually it sort of mirrors what happens in our domestic
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: politics where Trump's has Trump has to like threaten greater
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: and greater chaos for the markets to take him seriously. Uh,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: And so the markets have to respond more forcefully in
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: order to get him to back off whatever the latest
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: threat is, be a tariffs or some other economic policy
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: that would be destructive going after the FED.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: And so now he has to threaten this new every
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: single You know, this is going to be an escalation
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: on like anything we've ever seen. It's going to make
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: the early stage of the war look like a fireworks show. Uh,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: because he has to because the only he has to
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: ratchet up the threat because uh, that's I guess all
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: he has in terms of trying to get some control
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: over over Iran and get them to to sort of
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: relent on the Strait of Hormuz. So that's one dangerous path.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: The other is some kind of increasing sanctions, economic crackdown, right,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: like to sort of try to squeeze around that way.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: And then finally it's like just saying we did it.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: But even that option, which is I think something we're like, oh,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: well he should just declare victory and walk away, that's
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: not really available anymore because that Iran will continue to
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: control the strait of her moves. The fake outcome where
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: he says we got a better deal than Obama had,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: even if it's worse, is not available anymore because we've
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: been so thoroughly sort of bodied by their ability to
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: control the straight.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: I think this the way they change the reporting of
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: casualties is all about trying to get around the War
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: Powers Act by saying the old war ended and this
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: is a new war, I think. But it also sounds
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: like they weren't really updating casualties in in a timely manner,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: and then sort of the standard way like there were
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: reporters kind of watching the website where this is reported
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: out and seeing it kind of bump around last week,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: go up and down, and they're like, what is happening?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Even now the numbers aren't all in agreement, like it
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: we don't have it, We don't have like a straightforward
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: answer the total.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: Of the two conflicts, Operation Epic Fury and then whatever
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: they're calling overseas operations and now eighteen dead, six hundred
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: and twenty four wounded, and so they've also they've really
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: not been very transparent about what those the wounded number means.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: They're like, oh, it's mostly minor concussions that they went
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: back to work, but you know, traumatic brain injuries from
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: a you know, a ballistic missile exploding near you. That's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: a big deal. And it also it's part and parcel
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: to the Pentagon covering up the cost of the war
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: and just not being transparent, like I, you know, I
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: have friends who are still in the military or people
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: who are overseas will be like, you know, they're shutting down.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: You can no longer take photos on some of these
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: bases because they're just so destroyed that they're basically rendered unusable.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: People had to be evacuated from some of these places,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: like the cost of Basis just being like, you know,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: inoperable for many years to come now has not really
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: been like fully calculated.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Peg sat going in front of the Senate and
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: saying this war costs thirty five billion dollars, but we
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: need eighty billion right now in emergency. And then you're like, well,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: why don't you already have eighty billion in cash, and
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: he's like, no, no, no, I've already decided what that's
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: going for. And we have to do this because Biden
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: spent all of our money on Woke, and it's like
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: that may work in a Fox newshap. What the fuck
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: are you talking about?
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: How much this woke costs? All right? Speaking of bombs.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: On Friday, the White House Correspondence Association held its rescheduled
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: dinner after a gunman interrupted the event back in April.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: It was a smaller venue, with a smaller crowd and
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: more security, but Trump basically gave the speech he'd originally
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: planned on giving, and bully did he crush it.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 6: The other day, a senator I knew got a text
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 6: a great guy from his wife and she said, when
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 6: you get home, I want to have you immediately come
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 6: up the stairs and make love to me? And he
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 6: said I can't do both.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 6: You know? In other words, ah can't go up the stairs?
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 6: And babe, does anybody get that? I thought that was
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 6: actually pretty good. That was actually the only thing I
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 6: thought was good in this whole freaking stupid space sit.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 6: They wrote that was the only good one, and that
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 6: went down with not exactly great laughter. I think you
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 6: know in other words, you can't go up the stairs?
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: Were them?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: So we're looking for term limits.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 6: Does anybody understand is we will have sloppy Chris Christi,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 6: one of the sloppiest human beings you'll ever made. Fighting.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 6: I would say I could mention the governor of Chicago,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 6: but I'm gonna mention instead Jerry Nadler. And they're fighting
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 6: for a big piece of cheesecake, big fat piece of cheesecake.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Who the hell wrote that line?
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 6: Barack Hussein Obama hosted it. Do you know who that is?
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 6: And he hit me hard? And I have watched this
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 6: clip thousands of times. They keep playing it because they
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 6: think that was evening I decided to run for president.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 6: It was not. He actually showed a picture of the
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 6: white house with a big Trump on top, like I
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 6: put us on and you know I'm sort of doing
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 6: that when you think about it right now.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: We have all said previously the Trump can be genuinely funny.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: That was so bad that I almost started feeling sorry
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 4: for Donald Trump, which has never happened, but like, that
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: was incredibly painful, especially the sex up the stairs joke
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: when he goes and then he's like, ugh, that was
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: one of the better jokes. And then one more time
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: he's like, cause it's like the those third explanation of
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: the joke.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Did you see that he stole that joke too for Yeah,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: from Brad Paisley lyric. Well, it's a classic borsch belt joke,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: and it could have worked. The reason it didn't work
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: is he we've done many of these speeches you're trying
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: to get it's a it's a you're doing stand up
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: ten fifteen minutes. He was up there for an hour,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: an hour, an hour, and by the time he gets
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: to that light hearted joke about senators being old, he
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: described how much he hates half the people in the room,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: called Don Lemon Dunn. He said, Adam Schiff has an
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: ugly fat head. He hates Colbert compared Kaitlyn Collins to
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: Dylan mulvaney, calls Josh Jossi unhirable, pull itz Right award,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: and then he's like, anyway, anyway, boy, you senators or
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: role these days. Right. So of course by the time
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: you get to that part, like they've been sitting there
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: for forty five minutes, it's brutal.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: He's never read the speech. This is the other thing.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: It's like, you've gotta I know, he thinks that he's
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 4: a genius and can just go off script whatever. You
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: gotta practice a speech like that. Can you imagine Trump
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: like practicing jokes? No, I can't.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: But he had like one good Barry Weiss joke. He
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: had a couple of like well structured jokes that.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: He even the Berry Wises joke, which was good. He
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: didn't like he didn't deliver it well, like he could
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: have delivered it in a funnier way.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: But also I think it was in the prepared remarks.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: There's like a like a portion of his stump about
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Gavin Newsom in California that he seemed to be reading
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: off the teleprompter and it and so like he says
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: horrible things about elon Omar, like he just goes into
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: his sort of vicious and cruel, mean spirited ripping and
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: so the whole like he doesn't. He goes pokes a
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: little bit of fun at himself here and there, but like,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: of course there's not gonna be people laughing. It's deeply
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable to be an event that's supposed to be lighthearted
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: and you just like go for the jugger like you
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: would at a rally. He's just like, you're not built
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: for this because you're such a fucking asshole.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: You know, the comedy seller. At eleven PM, you're in
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: front of the most oversensitive group of people you can find,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: and you're being somli. By the way, didn't Jerry Nadler
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: like hit the GLP ones a couple of years ago
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: and he's lost a ton of weight too. Yeah, the
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: riffing made no sense and he did that.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: He when he talked about Pritzker, the governor of Chicago,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: he mentioned that as well too. He's like, he's actually
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: looking better, He's looking better.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 5: He's just the dick is really the problem.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: But it started kind of magnanimous because like he did
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: this whole bit at the top about how like the
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: last dinner was bad and celebrated the you know the
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: cops who kept everybody safe and said how that they
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: had to you know, they wouldn't let the show get
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: canceled because that lets the shooter win. And then we
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: just went into this ti rate.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: And when you looked at the all the cuts to
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: the audience, when you watch the whole thing, it was
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: like just silent. And also I know there's oh, it's
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: a room full of journalists. They don't like Trump, but
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 4: like all of his administration, all his people were there.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: No one was laughing.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they just like.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: The funniest thing was when he got the laugh there
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: and said I thought that was the best joke of
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: the bunch.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole thing was very ugly, right because he's
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: going after Caitlyn Collins and all these journalists in this
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: really personal and sort of obviously misogynist way. And then
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: you have like the the like reporters on the day
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: ass kind of like trying to like laugh and there
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: the whole thing was ugly. And so then you have
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: like New York Times reporters like Peter Baker being like,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: we should rethink this dinner, which is they're on their
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: high horse about the fucking dinner because they haven't gone
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: forever and are glad.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: For that decision. To their credit, Yeah, to their credit.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: But he I was like, what did anyone expect from him?
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: Was he going to learn this time? Obviously this is
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: who he is and what he was going to say.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: And by the way, like he he says once he
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: had two.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: Jokes about Kaitlyn Collins. One was suggesting she looked like
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: Dylan mulvaney, which she just said, but then also being
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: like Kaitlyn Collins never smiles.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: He says that to her.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: All the time at press conferences. Every time she asked
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: him a tough question, he's like, what's your problem, your
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: pretty girl?
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: Smile?
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: He's said, a sexist old man, and like he doesn't
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: do that as part of a comedy bit. It's part
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: of his like stump deflection and routine for hard questions,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: like he's just a shithead.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a shithead. It might be time to retire. Then,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 4: now that we've moved it to the the former Trump
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: Hotel now the Waldorf Astoria, smaller so that.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: When we knocked down the arch and we sort of
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: get the gold leaf off the white House, and we
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: restore independence the Department of Justice at the bottom of
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: that list. We can decide what we want to do
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: with what happened to the White House.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: Carss problem for sure, remaining rump state of media didn't.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Stick around for the mentalists have to say, I didn't
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: didn't catch O's didn't you? He did it? He did
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: give he did do the joke, which was, if you're
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: such a mentalist, how come you didn't know the shooting
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: was coming.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: Out with the joke everyone made the night of the shooting.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: All his worst show?
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: Is this still funny couple months later? No? It?
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: It went crazy?
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: All right? When we come back, Ben Wickler.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Pot tam Ma is brought to you by Chime. Summer
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  Speaker 4: Ben with her welcome back to the show.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 7: It's great to be with you, Congress in the new studio.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 4: Thank you. It's pretty nice, pretty sweet, pretty fancy. All right.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: So I want to get to the book, but first
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 4: I have to take advantage of the entirely coincidental but
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: highly opportune timing of you being here and ask about
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: the messy gubernatorial primary in your beloved state and the
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: messy leadership situation at the d n C which you
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 4: ran to be chair of. I know you well. You
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: are far too wise and generous to shoot on Ken Martin.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: I've got that covered, but I really want your your
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: honest thoughts on the DNC's financial situation. Ken's argument is
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: that a party is not a savings account, that he
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: chose to spend early on organizers and technology and state
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: party infrastructure. And that's also like more or less your argument,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: the argument you make in the book. But of course
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: the party is now two million dollars in debt while
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 4: the RNC is sitting on one hundred and twenty eight
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: point five million dollars in cash. So do you buy
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: his defense that that's just the cost of investing early.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 7: So I agree that you should invest early. And the
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 7: goal what you want is to be able to do both.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 7: You want to be able to both have the money
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 7: to invest in places that it'll take years to be
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 7: able to build the power to win statewide. But their
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 7: state legislative raises everywhere where we can win, and you
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 7: also want to have the ability to invest in the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 7: places where elections are closest and highest stakes and then
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 7: your tip those over the top. And I think the
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 7: challenge right now is there's not quite enough money to
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 7: do either. The other thing that's new in this moment
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 7: is the US Supreme Court ruling that allows parties to
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 7: invest in unlimited support for federal candidates. Wisconsin had a
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 7: version of that that was started under Scott Walker. We
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 7: call it the Scott Walker loophole, and it is the
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 7: way that we beat Elon Musk and you know who
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 7: outspent us dramatically, is that the Democratic Party Wisconsin was
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 7: able to raise money and then transfer it to our candidate,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 7: who got a lower rate for TV ads than the
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 7: superback ads that Elon Musk was funding in our state.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 7: We also had a better message, better candidate, and didn't
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 7: have Elon Musk hanging around our neck. But the and
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 7: huge grassroots organizing talk about that in the book, But
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 7: right now, that means that national committees could do a
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 7: ton more if they have the money to be able
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 7: to do it to support candidates in the places, especially
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 7: for candidates who don't have huge fund raising abilities on
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 7: their own, but who have totally winnable seats and who,
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 7: if they have the funds to get their message out,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 7: can win in places that are maybe off the national radar.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 7: So this is a time when having more funds at
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 7: the DNC, having more funds at the other national committees
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 7: makes an enormous difference. And what I want is for
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 7: canon for the DNC to be as successful as possible.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 7: I think there's a huge opportunity in this election, including
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 7: in a lot of places right now where Republicans aren't
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 7: investing and don't realize how mad voters are. So if
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 7: I wave a magic wand there's a a flood of
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 7: money that comes in and we're able to invest in
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 7: you know, winning sometimes in squeakers, in a whole bunch
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 7: of places that expand the map and safeguard the future
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 7: of American democracy.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so that's what you just said. I mean,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 4: you raised and spent sixty three million dollars in twenty
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 4: twenty four for the Wisconsin Democratic Party. That sounds right,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: which is a little more than the entire Democratic National
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: Committee has raised so far in twenty twenty six. Is
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 4: the honest answer here that spending early only works if
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 4: you can also raise. Then the raising is the failure here.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 7: I mean, there's I think there's a lot of puzzle
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 7: pieces here. I think that right now there's a kind
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 7: of like vicious circle where there's negative news cycles that
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 7: then make it hard to go out and say this
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 7: is a good time to invest. And I think that
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 7: starts changing when people see, oh yeah, if I donate here,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 7: it's going to have a big impact on making making
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 7: things better and winning elections. And I think that's you know,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 7: maybe that that change starts right here on the pod, John, maybe,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 7: but whatever, whatever it is, like, we can't as long
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 7: as we're in circular firing squad mode and not you know,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 7: pointing to where we need to like throw our shoulders
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 7: against the wheel to save the country. It's very hard
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 7: to get out of that cycle. And also, like the
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 7: election is ninety nine days away, there's a huge opportunity
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 7: to like flood the zone in the places where elections
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 7: are likely to be tightest and where a push can
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 7: make the difference. And I will add that that is
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 7: not just House and Senate races, like at all levels.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 7: There's going to be state legislative contests that have enormous significance.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 7: One thing in a I think the New York Times
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 7: story was about the DNC helping Mississippi break the Republican
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 7: supermajority at the state level that I love like that
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 7: was one hundred thousand dollars investment played a role. I'm
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 7: sure there are a ton of other people involved as well,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 7: but breaking Republican supermajorities in deep red states can have
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 7: an enormous impact on the future of things like redistricting.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 7: So you know, part of the argument of my book
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 7: and my kind of life's work at this moment and
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 7: the Democratic Party is look at the whole map of
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 7: how power is built and wielded in this country. The
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 7: Right keeps you using its power to rig everything so
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 7: that only a handful of people can write the rules
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 7: for all of us. But if you can unrig the system,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 7: often at the state and local level, those races are
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 7: often much less expensive and have huge up ballot consequences.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 7: And I think it is good to think as a
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 7: party about how to fight at all those levels at.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 4: Once in the interest of fixing things. What would you
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 4: do about the money situation if you were in Ken's
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 4: position right now.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 7: I would which I'm sure Ken is also working on
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 7: I try to raise more money so that you have
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 7: more money to invest in the various things, and that
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 7: to me, the biggest thing is being able to lay
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 7: out if you invest here is how we're going to
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 7: be able to win more fights that folks care about.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 7: There's often when people think about the corrupting influence of
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 7: money and politics, which you may have to look at
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 7: the news to see the corrupt influence of money and politics,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 7: but very often it's about policies that particular candidates or
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 7: elected officials hold. Parties are not where people who want
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 7: to change policy. It's not where they give, especially when
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 7: there's not a democratic president. What parties do is they
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 7: help create infrastructure for victories or losses. And so the
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 7: way to raise money for the Democratic Party is fundamentally
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 7: to instill trust to demonstrate the results that come from
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 7: those investments. And for all the kind of debate about
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 7: the fifty state strategy, I think one of the things
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 7: that is really helpful is when you see what's being
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 7: done in particular states with those investments that actually generates
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 7: electoral victory, and then it makes you enthusiastic about investing.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 7: And I think there's a lot of stories like that
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 7: that I would love to I'd love to see more
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 7: of and hear more about. I think about. You know,
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 7: some of the state parties that are doing amazing work,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 7: like North Carolina. There's this huge focus on local organizing
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 7: that's going to affect things like the state Supreme Court race.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 7: And the country is not thinking about the North Carolina
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 7: State Supreme Court. But the only reason Republicans have a
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 7: majority in the US House right now is because Republicans
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 7: won a state Supreme Court race there in twenty twenty
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 7: by four hundred and one votes, one hundredth of one
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 7: percent of all the votes cast in the state. And
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 7: that put in place a chief Justice who drove the
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 7: jerrymandering that gave the National Republicans their House majority at
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 7: this moment, And there's a Supreme Court race there this November.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 7: Anita Earls is up for reelection. If she wins, they
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 7: could win a majority. Democrats could win a majority by
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 7: twenty twenty eight, and that could lead to the djerymandering
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 7: of that state and affect the future of American democracy.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 7: And those are the kinds of things that state parties
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 7: specialize in and supporting state parties to do that kind
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 7: of work has a huge effect. I know, I'm personal
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 7: to my own state of Wisconsin, which we can all
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 7: agree is the best state, but it's also a place
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 7: where our state party has been deeply involved in state
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 7: legislative races, minoral races, state Supreme court election. This fall,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 7: we have a chance to win both chambers of the
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 7: state legislature and across the country. Most people, I regret
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 7: to admit, are not thinking about the Wisconsin state legislative
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 7: battle of twenty twenty six, but that fight could dictator
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 7: proof Wisconsin. Before twenty twenty eight, we were the closest
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 7: state in the country to having the election overturned. After
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 7: twenty twenty, we know Trump is going to try to
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 7: pull something next time he is in danger of losing power.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 7: You you lock down democracy at the state level, or
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 7: rather unrigged democracy at the state level. That is the
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 7: best way to defend national elections going forward. And those
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 7: are the kinds of races that you know, have supporting
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 7: state parties right now, and the DNC is doing a
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 7: lot of Supporting state parties can have a huge effect
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 7: on so I look at the You know, it is
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 7: very painful to read the stories that are unfolding. Everyone
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 7: experiences that. I'm sure everyone within the DNC is, you know,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 7: not not thrilled about the stories unfolding. But there are
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 7: giant opportunities that are right there where a small investment
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 7: can make a huge outside impact. Because Donald Trump's I
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 7: have sar On is not on those races. But we
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 7: can put our eye on the ball and we can
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 7: win and we can fight.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think what I'm most worried about
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: is like the DNC doesn't play the biggest role in
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 4: the midterms regardless, right the other party of the committees do,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 4: and the state parties do certainly play a big role
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 4: in the twenty twenty eight race, and especially with that
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 4: Supreme Court decision. Now we'll play a big role because
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 4: people can donate now much more to the DNC and
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 4: that can help with the campaign directly. And the stories
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 4: are awful to read. No one wants that. We all
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 4: want the Democratic Party to be successful, in the DNC
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 4: to be successful. I think what strikes me is that
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 4: because they're coming from inside the DNC and the DNC members,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 4: it makes me think that those are people who also
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 4: don't want bad press, but are at this point, Like
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: I'm talking, I'd rather talk and have the bad stories
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 4: and try to fix the situation than continue to see
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 4: this unfold. And I just saw today Rufus Gifford, I'm
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 4: sure you know. Rufus, who finance director of the DNC,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: He's been finance director, worked there for eight years, loves
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 4: the place, you know, has said today that the DNC
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 4: is quote spiraling towards irrelevance and said that Ken is
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: a good man with good intentions, but simply not meeting
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 4: this critical moment. Do you agree.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 7: I am the guy who lost the election for DNC chair,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 7: and I'm the last person you want to be armchair quarterback.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 7: I can beat me by out organizing me in the
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 7: DNC race, and you know, building trusted voters over us
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 7: with the same kind of strategy that he and I
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 7: both think is really critical to winning elections at every level.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 7: So I, you know, I don't want to be in
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 7: the middle of this. Not running for the ancientia myself.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 7: Like I, my goal is to spread a message to
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 7: a much wider number of people about what everyone can do.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 7: I have a chapter in my book about the Democratic
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 7: Party with the title It's My Party and I'll cry
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 7: if I want to something many you know, people feel
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 7: at various moments at all levels. And the argument that
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 7: I make is that the Democratic Party, however you feel
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 7: about it, it actually has a door that is wide open,
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 7: shockingly open. It is easier to join the Democratic Party
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 7: in whatever state people live in than to join the
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 7: benevolent Order of the Elks or like an even the
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 7: old nineteenth twentieth century social civic organizations. There's not some
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 7: set of boxes that you have to check. You can
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 7: get involved, and then you can you can revitalize the
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 7: party where you are. You can turn it into a
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 7: vessel for organizing and fighting. And I talk to people
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 7: who are like running for county party chair all across
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 7: the Kundt, who are mad about the way things are
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 7: going right now, and then they realize, hey, if I
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 7: get a bunch of people together and we get involved,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 7: we can just like take over around here. And then
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 7: we can start working to flip the city councils, and
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 7: we can win judicial races, we can flip the state
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 7: legislative seats. There are so many blue states where there
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 7: are people in offices that are not using them to
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 7: have the biggest impact that they could. And there's so
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 7: many places in red states where there's very little Democratic
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 7: Party organization, but if you build enough power, you can
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 7: push through and you can make huge change. And then
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 7: in purple states, it is shocking how few votes wind
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 7: up tipping the entire thing. So if anyone who's frustrated
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 7: about the Democratic Party right now, become the Democratic Party
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 7: and build the kind of party that you want to
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 7: be part of. It is it is right there, and
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 7: it is a it's a vessel for organizing that unlike
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 7: everything else, it exists everywhere, in every county, in every community.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 7: And if we can make it stronger, and we can
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 7: make it a body that fights for things that benefit everyone,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 7: then I think it has a huge change on the
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 7: whole future of the country.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 4: Your book is excellent, is tailor made for our audience,
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 4: so I hope everyone buys it. It's called this is
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 4: the Plan. Give us the cliff note version of what
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 4: the plan is.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 7: So the plan starts with you, not just you, John,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 7: but you the reader, viewer, listener, and the thing that
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 7: each of us can do. I have a chapter called
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 7: Unleash Your Superpower, which is about both the kind of
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 7: art and science and practice of organizing, of getting people
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 7: together to do something they wouldn't otherwise do. So I
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 7: dig into how to have the biggest effect with your
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 7: volunteer hours if you can chip in money, the kinds
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 7: of stuff that makes the biggest difference. And then I
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 7: map out, drawing on the story of how we unrigged
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 7: our state legislative maps in Wisconsin, which is this huge
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 7: multi year fight that took a bunch of different offices.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 7: I trace out what we can do nationwide to unrig
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 7: our system, which right now pretty clearly is a system
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 7: where a handful of far right billionaires write the rules
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 7: for everyone else to enrich themselves at all of our expense.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 7: So how do we do that? Step one in twenty
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 7: twenty six fight for Houston Senate majorities. But the states
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 7: are the most critical battlefield because especially if we win
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 7: trifact democratic trifectas in the battleground states, a you can
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 7: you can pass laws in those states that prevent Trump
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 7: from being able to steal the twenty twenty eight election.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 7: Elections are run by the states, so this is you know,
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 7: if you have people who refuse to play along with
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 7: coup attempts, it makes all the difference in the world.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 7: You can also defame the electoral college. There's this law
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 7: called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which is a long,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 7: nerdy name for an amazing bill that has been passed already.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 4: In eighteen states.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: That's what I call it.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 7: I came up with a way to pronounce the the
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 7: unpronounceable acronym.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 4: That's great because every time I say it, I didn't
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 4: even I've never said the acronym, and I'm always like,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 4: it's the National Compact something voter.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 7: Yeah, nivid rhymes with lipstick, nipfick. We gotta spread nipfick
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 7: across the country if we if no other thing happens,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 7: if we all be able to find a way to
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 7: stay niphick, then I will not be satisfied with the
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 7: impact of the book, but I'll be happy. So uh,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 7: that is a bill that if we pass it through
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 7: the states where Democrats can win trifectas in twenty twenty six,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 7: you can make it so that whoever wins the National
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 7: Popular Vote wins the presidential election. Because states decide where
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 7: they put their electoral college votes. It is very very
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 7: close to actually.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 4: Happening, and basically so it's like a backdoor way of
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 4: eliminating the electoral college, because the Constitution gives states the power,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 4: the ultimate power to decide how they assign their electors.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 4: So the state legislators can decide, we're going to assign
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 4: our electors to the winner of the national popular vote,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: and then that way you can kind of go around
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 4: the electoral college.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 7: That's exactly it. So I was actually talking to Heather Cox,
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 7: Richards Center historian about this, and she was pointing out
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 7: to me that originally overwhelmingly states gave their electoral college
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 7: votes on a proportional basis, the way that like Nebraska
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 7: and mayn still do. And then a few states realized,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 7: starting with Thomas Jefferson in Virginia, that if he made
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 7: his state go for whoever won the majority winner take all,
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 7: that would give him advantage. So then every state kind
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 7: of went to that system. The only way to get
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 7: back to a proportional system is if all is if
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 7: enough states decide to jump together. So this is what's
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 7: special about this law is that it only takes effect
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 7: when enough states have passed the law to choose the
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 7: next president, which means that you know, it's not like
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 7: you're gonna throw away your vote or dilute your power
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 7: until the moment when everyone holds hands jumps together, and
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 7: then all two seventy plus electoral college votes of states
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 7: that have passed this law go to whoever wins the
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 7: national popular vote, and then it transforms this country, like
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 7: we end the era of swing states and safe states.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 7: Every person's ballot counts the same. The fight for voting
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 7: rights laws in every state suddenly affect the whole national picture.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 7: It's you know, it would be complicated and messy, but
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 7: also glorious and I want it so bad.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 4: I love it. I've thought about it for a while now,
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 4: and I've been like keeping track of how close we're
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 4: getting to, like the so close. Yeah, we're pretty close. Now,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: are you where? With the legal challenges or the like
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 4: whether it survives legal challenges, because there's there's a few arguments,
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 4: legal arguments about like why it might be tricky to
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 4: pull off, And one of the more practical ones is
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 4: that like it wouldn't get challenged until like in the
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 4: midst of an election, so it.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 7: Has provisions in it about like how to be able
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 7: to withdraw from it and so forth. You know, it's
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 7: been like scrutinizing a whole bunch of different ways, and
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 7: I think it's it looks legally signed. To me, I'm
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 7: I'm not a lawyer myself. I will say, even if
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 7: it is completely legally legit, I say that this Supreme
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 7: Court might find some basis so much to strike it down.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 7: So that goes to another thing I argue for in
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 7: the book. So you know, step, when we win the states,
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 7: we start moving in nipfick through the state through more
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 7: state legislatures. We need forty eight more electoral College votes
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 7: to be able to put it into effects. So when
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 7: trifecta is in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, New Hampshire, boom,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 7: more than enough electoral college votes. Great, let's add Alaska
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 7: while we're at it. Yeah, But then twenty twenty eight
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 7: comes along and we existentially have to win presidency, House
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 7: and US Senate, and I think ideally we win a
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 7: majority of the House delegations in a majority of states,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 7: so that if Trump once again tries to mess with
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 7: the electoral college, if it's still in place in the
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 7: way that it is right now, and the election goes
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 7: to a vote in the House, of House delegations that
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 7: the election is not overturned through another coup attempts, which.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 4: How close the way to a majority of House delegations.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 7: Far We are far right now. Right now Republicans have
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 7: thirty House delegation majorities, and we have two election cycles
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 7: to be able to change that. And so that is
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 7: totally doable, and you can far.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 4: It's not crazy far, it's not crazy.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 7: Yeah, And there are enough states where we could absolutely
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 7: be able to win. It means organizing in places like
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 7: Alaska where Trump won by fourteen percentage points but is
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 7: now hideously unpopular and Mary Peltola could win the Senate race,
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 7: we can win the House race, We could win the
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 7: governorship there, We could have multi party coalitions in the
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 7: legislature like Iowa, we could win a majority of the
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 7: House seats as well as the governorship, the attorney general's race,
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 7: the US Senate race like there are ways that we
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 7: can flip House delegation majorities that also, by the way,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 7: make life better for people in those states and win
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 7: US Senate majorities. So big map, big field, lots to do.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 7: And my argument to people is work where you are
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 7: to improve policies, you know, build organized locally and then
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 7: choose some places, maybe one place where elections are really close.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 7: It could be adopting a house district. It could be
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 7: deciding to adopt a state legislative chamber and pour yourself,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 7: get a group of friends together, pour yourself into making
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 7: a difference in that place too. This is a vote
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 7: safe of America's Adopt a State project. There you go
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 7: pioneering in this regard. If you do that for a
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 7: couple hours a month, then you know, add up enough
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 7: months and you can have a gigantic impact, especially if you,
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 7: you know, find a way to make it fun with
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 7: your friends, maybe involving alcohol or you know, some kind
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 7: of beverage. Like there's lots of there's lots of ways
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 7: to do this. They can feel really good when you win.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 7: This is one of the reasons I think we have
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 7: so many volunteers in Wisconsin is we've found way we
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 7: lean into so many different fights. People have the experience
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 7: of being part of winning something, often something very close,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 7: over and over and it feels incredible to like stay
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 7: up late, watch the returns come in and realize that
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 7: you help make the difference in a nail bier election
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 7: that changes everything so.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 4: Best feeling in the world. Best feeling if you're a
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 4: political nerd. Yeah, I mean, if you're not, it'll it'll
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 4: be pretty good.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 7: It'll turn you into politically it's landslides are great, love
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 7: those two. But the like, if we're winning landslides, then
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 7: our map'stop big enough, you know what I mean, Like,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 7: there's so many places where one more push can get
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 7: us over the edge, and let's do those places too.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 7: So twenty eight we win the federal trifecta. We get
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 7: through whatever coup attempt it is that Donald Trump tries
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 7: to pull, and we thank goodness that we elected pro
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 7: democracy mayors and governors and attorneys general who fought back
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 7: against whatever Trump's genangans turned out to be. We have
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 7: a new president. They do an inaugural address to great speech.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 7: They have an even bigger crowd than Trump's twenty sixteen inaugural.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 7: We're thrilled. And then and this is a big and
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 7: then we have to actually abolish the filibuster and pass
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 7: fundamental democracy reform to unrig the American system of government.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 7: And that that is I go sort of level by
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 7: level of the American political system in the book, and
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 7: who's working on it where we need to win to
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 7: be able to change it. But my argument that all
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 7: kind of rolls up to the plan, and this the
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 7: plan is that we have to add states to unbalance
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 7: the US Senate. We have to reform the US Supreme Court.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 7: I think term limits is the most interesting option. If
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 7: the US Supreme Court decides that Congress doesn't have the
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 7: power to do that, then it certainly has the power
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 7: to expand the number of justices. So there's another option
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 7: there too. We have to have some combination of a
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 7: national jerrymandering ban and doubling the size of the House.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 7: I'm really interested in proportional representation for US House members
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 7: with multi member districts. These are ideas that a lot
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 7: of people don't know about right now or read about
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 7: them in the book. There's like lots of countries that
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 7: do this, I mean in American history, these things have
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 7: happened before. But this system right now, where we've got
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 7: the Voting Rights Act, where we can have the country
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 7: completely rigged after each census and even in between the census,
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 7: so most House districts voters have no real say. Where
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 7: Republicans have a structural advantage in the US Senate plus
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 7: a filibuster that only blocks things that Democrats might want
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 7: to do. Essentially, it allows tax cuts for rich people
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 7: in confirmation to Supreme Court justice. And then this imperial
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 7: presidency chosen through the electoral College that Congress can't act
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 7: to do anything about because of the filibuster, and the
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 7: courts won't do anything because they have a hammer lock
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 7: on the US Supreme Court. It just doesn't work. It
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 7: doesn't work to have a country that has a huge
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 7: diversity of views, in which our structures are built to
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 7: ratchet things just to the right. And so what we've
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 7: experienced this century is, more than any other time in
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 7: American history, a series of change elections where people are
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 7: fed up and they vote for change, and when Republicans come,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 7: they're like not not like that. The Repolicans screw everything up.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 7: And when Democrats come in, a whole bunch of the
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 7: stuff that they campaign on they can't do because the
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 7: system is set up to block it. The US Supreme
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 7: Court strikes it down, the Senate filibuster blocks it. And
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 7: so a lot of people feel, and I think rightly,
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 7: that the economic system is not working for them. That
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 7: like basic things like being able to get healthcare or childcare.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 7: They vote for people who say that they're going to
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 7: deliver it, and then it doesn't come through. And if
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 7: you ask yourself why that is, it is generally not
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 7: that Democrats have a failure of nerve to vote for
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 7: the thing they want. The House passes these things over
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 7: and over again. It's because we have a system that
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 7: is rigged against delivering for regular people. And so this
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 7: is the plan maps out the plan to change that
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 7: in a way that we've changed how the government functions
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 7: over and over throughout history, and then about a half
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 7: century ago, we stopped. We stopped the mend in the Constitution,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 7: we stopped adding states, we stopped changing how senator are elected,
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 7: we stopped changing the sides of the House, we stopped
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 7: changing the size of the Supreme Court. All those things
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 7: used to change regularly, and we've been stuck in this
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 7: kind of failure mode where the change that people are
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 7: vote for, organized for, cry out for, never comes. And
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 7: I think it is time to change the delivery vehicle
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 7: for change itself and restore the vision of the best
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 7: traditions of our country and the best moments in the
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 7: founding of this country, which is a system of government
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 7: that actually adapts to be able to respond to the
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 7: crises and needs of the time, where the right of
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 7: the people, as it says in the Declaration of Independence,
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 7: to make their government actually work is made real.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 4: So I don't know if people realize or remember, because
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 4: now it was all of five years ago, how close
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 4: we were in twenty one to getting rid of the
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 4: filibuster to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. It
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 4: was just Mansion in Cinema were the only Democrats not
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 4: willing to remove the filibuster. They're both gone. Cinema was
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 4: replaced with Diego, who's certainly totally in favor of that.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 4: So we basically need a fifty one vote majority, and
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 4: hopefully if we elect some of these new senators and
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 4: some of these tough states, they'll be there as well.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 4: You bring up the twenty thirty then becomes a pretty
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 4: important year. Not to get too far ahead of ourselves,
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 4: but it's part of the plan, because we do all
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 4: these things in twenty eight. One part of your plan
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 4: is to for Democrats to survive the twenty thirty backlash.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 4: We know there's always a backlash after there's a trifecta.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 4: There was in twenty ten that you know there could
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 4: be in twenty thirty if this all comes to pass.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 4: And I wonder what you think of because you're right,
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 4: there've been and you have this stat in the book
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 4: that there have been more sort of change elections, like
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 4: party switching power in the last however many years than
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 4: there have been like all throughout history. Was like the
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 4: last couple decades.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 7: In two thousand, we've had more change in the White House,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 7: the US House, and the US Senate.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 4: Than any other time in any other time of history.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 4: And I wonder, like, is there sometimes I wonder this too,
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 4: Is there evidence that delivering actual change, tangible changes that
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 4: improves people's lives makes them satisfied enough to not vote
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 4: for change? Again, considering that, you know, Biden passed quite
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 4: a bit in his first couple of years. He passed
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 4: similar checks aside from those the climate investments, everything that
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 4: was in the Build Back Better Bill that was more
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 4: long term investments. Do you think that in addition to
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 4: those democracy reforms in twenty eight Democrats need to pass
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 4: legislation that like improves people's lives. Absolutely, we've been those
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 4: first two years.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 7: That's the whole thing. So I want to respond kind
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 7: of at three level, sure, all right, at the micro level,
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 7: something that I think people forget and very little discussion
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 7: of is that when Biden came in, the emergency measures
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 7: to deal with the COVID pandemic, the expanded unemployment insurance,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 7: the childcare tax credit, there was a set of things
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 7: that dramatically increased the kind of disposable income for especially
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 7: like the bottom third economically of the country. And it
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 7: was incredibly popular at that time, and then it all
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 7: went away. And so even though it is true that
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 7: like wages grew from the bottom up in the Biden economy,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 7: for a ton of Americans, especially the people who were
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 7: having the toughest luck in the economy, they got a
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 7: bunch of help, and then suddenly the carpet was yanked
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 7: out from under them. And at the same time as
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 7: prices were rising. So their experience was that their wages,
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 7: their income went down at the same time as prices
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 7: were going up. And those are the exact voters who
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 7: went for Trump for the first time in either of
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 7: our lives. People earning less than fifty thousand dollars a
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 7: year voted Republican. In the twenty twenty four President election.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 7: So I actually think we sort of have a counter example,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 7: like we have an example for ourselves of if people
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 7: are experiencing material pain, then they will vote for change.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 4: And that party that part.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 7: We know, we kind of saw that, right and and
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 7: around the world in every country, the governing party wound
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 7: up losing ground in developed democracies in twenty twenty four,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 7: as I right, and prices, inflation and cost of living
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 7: was the biggest issue everywhere, but we actually were doing
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 7: doing something serious about it, and then we stopped. And
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 7: that was there were some policy design choices in there
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 7: that I, you know, I think we should rethink how
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 7: we think about that stuff in the future. That's kind
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 7: of micro level. The second level is the I was
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 7: once talking to an administration official who said, when you
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 7: propose a policy, it's popular. When it's being passed, it's unpopular.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 7: When it's being implemented, it's unpopular. But when the other
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 7: side drives to take it away, becomes popular again. And
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 7: perfect example, right, and you know, the battle like a
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 7: bunch of different policies that have been good for people
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 7: have this quality, and to me, the goal of politics
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 7: you win in order to be able to pass policies
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 7: that make people's lives better. So it is, you know,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 7: it might not be that there's a immedia policy reward,
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 7: and especially policies that take a while to actually like
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 7: implement and get them going. It might be that you
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 7: are kind of creating something that the other side can't
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 7: take away that creates an enduring benefit for people. And
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 7: I think that the ACA is proven to be an
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 7: enormous help for Democrats. Twenty eighteen, Republicans try to take
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 7: it away and it was the number one issue, and
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 7: once again Republicans cutting medicids spending that was expanded through
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 7: the ACA. It is an explosive issue that helps Democrats
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 7: right now. So I do think that there's even if
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 7: it takes a couple of cycles, I do think there's
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 7: like a pretty clear path that you can draw towards.
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 7: If you do stuff to help people, then the party
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 7: that tries to scrap it takes a price. And if
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 7: we are the party that keeps doing the good things,
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 7: then the Rebublicans trying to scrap it have a price.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 7: But the last thing, there's this the very macro level,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 7: this concept in political sides of political orders, which is
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 7: essentially what's not controversial in a period of time is
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 7: the thing that tells you the most about that period.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 7: So after the New Deal, there was Eisenhower came in
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 7: and he did not try to rip up the New Deal.
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 7: The political order for decades was that the New Deal
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 7: programs and the sort of set of economic guarantees, those
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 7: were beyond politics and through Reagan exactly. And then came
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 7: the neoliberal order, and Reagan and Reagan you know, did
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 7: union busting and deregulation and a bunch of stuff that
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 7: is you know, still raging through American politics, and a
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 7: lot of that stuff wasn't contested. Both parties were kind
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 7: of fighting on that terrain. The really big goal is
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 7: to build a new political order. And I think what
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 7: we want is a political order for the future where
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 7: which party, you know, wins might change hands, but that
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 7: certain things are actually built in to me. Things that
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 7: start with ensuring that nobody is like going broke because
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 7: they get sick, or nobody is unable to afford a
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 7: place to live. There's an economic guarantees. And then the second,
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 7: well there's three things I want. One is like make
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 7: the economy actually work for working people, and I think
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 7: union rights and you know, and the way our social
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 7: insurance programs work are two critical elements of that. There's
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 7: a bunch of others. The second thing is some rights
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 7: and freedoms that like need to be guaranteed and protected
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 7: by the federal government that are absolutely under assault right
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 7: now in a way that is has been you know, shocking.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 7: They're trying to repeal the civil rights movement and you know,
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 7: and so much else. And it's like any group that
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 7: has achieved freedom and equality in this country is being
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 7: targeted by this administration. And a lot of this stuff
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 7: was nonpartisan, low stake stuff that both parties agreed in
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 7: at different moments that there were you know, bipartisan majorities. Well,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 7: the public is still a bipartisan majority for reproductive freedom.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 7: They there was a period do you remember when Republicans
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 7: attack trans people in North Carolina? And it was like
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 7: a giant uproar. This idea that attacking trans people is
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 7: is this great popular weg issue for Republicans doesn't need
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 7: to be that way. The public is not always naturally
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 7: inflamed about, you know, whether gender identity should be a
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 7: political battlefield. I'd like to get to a world where
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 7: everyone's humanity is something that we can like a starting point.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 7: And the third one is democracy itself, which is for
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 7: most of you know, there are periods when the fight
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 7: over this basic question of whether we'll have majority rule
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 7: in this country isn't really up for grabs every election.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 7: And one reason why we keep telling ourselves that the
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 7: next election is the most important election of our lifetimes
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 7: is because we keep having this this question of whether
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 7: it will be the last free election in America ever
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 7: has I'd like to get a little bit away from
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 7: the precipice and that leaves tons of stuff that we
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 7: can contest. And I think a natural access that makes
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 7: sense is the kind of like what is you know,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 7: this kind of size of government, role of government in
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 7: public life. There there's lots of different issues that divide
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 7: most Republicans from most Democrats that we can argue over,
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 7: and I think having competitive pressure pushes both parties to
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 7: try to figure out how to govern more effectively. I think,
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 7: like excellence in public service and government is produced more
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 7: when there are electoral stakes, and you might lose power
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 7: if you don't do a good job. All those things
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 7: are good, but building a political order where these kind
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 7: of like you don't feel as though the ground might
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 7: crack open beneath you and swallow.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 4: Not every election is like a manichein struggle.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I would like I'd like to turn down the
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 7: stakes a little bit, and you know we can, you can.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 7: I don't know if would be helpful for the political
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 7: podcasting business if fun.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll take that.
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 7: I'll take We'll take this, right, I'll take the right.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 4: Take it speen of high stakes. I know that you're
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 4: staying neutral in the primary in Wisconsin, in the governor's
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 4: race until the bitter end. I know you're not neutral
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 4: in wanting a Democratic governor in that state who will
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 4: be responsible for, among other things, certifying the presidential result
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 4: in twenty twenty eight. Is that a reason for primary
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 4: voters in Wisconsin to think about electability differently this year
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 4: than they normally would.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 7: I think that Wisconsin voters think about electability a lot.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 7: We have over and over experienced. Yeah, what happens when
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 7: we lose. It's not bigo. We've had the Wisconsin I
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 7: argue in the book, Wisconsin is like a mini version
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 7: of what the country is going through right now because
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 7: we had our authoritarian breakthrough came when Scott Walker won
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 7: in twenty ten and then tried to rig our political
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 7: system and defund schools and public services and smash unions,
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 7: all this stuff the same way Donald Trump has done
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 7: on a national level. Now, so we have experienced our
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 7: own state level, you know, authoritarian moment the same way.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 7: Lots of states in the South have continued to experience it.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 7: And I think there's a big debate about, you know,
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 7: what is electable right now, who's going to vote? How
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 7: do you energize people? And then this trade off of
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 7: like what do you get when you win? What is
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 7: the issue that animate you?
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 4: All?
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 7: That is like legitimate grounds for having a debate and
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 7: for people making those different arguments. Wisconsin has this great
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 7: tradition I write about in the book is the birthplace
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 7: of the progressive movement Capital p progressive movement, and one of
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 7: the reforms of the progressive movement that started in Wisconsin'
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 7: swept the nation is direct primaries to choose your nominee,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 7: where the people decide who the nominee will be, and
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 7: the party. When the Democratic Party Wisconsin, which I used
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 7: to chair, I'm an advisor to the new chair different memorkers.
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 7: I think doing a killer job, very hard job one
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 7: of the party's core commitments in our constitution is that
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 7: the party itself doesn't put its thumb on the scale,
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 7: even if elected officials and public you know, citizens and
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 7: groups and unions and everybody does their different endorsements. The
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 7: party is neutral in the primary so that voters can
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 7: decide who they want their nominee to be, and then
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 7: the party can play a role of saying that everybody, hey, like,
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 7: even though that was tough and you know, messi and complicated,
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 7: we're going to like put that behind us. We're going
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 7: to unite and we're going to do everything we can
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 7: to chew through concrete and win the general election. And
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 7: that that is my own role in this fight, and
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 7: that's what I invite everyone to do.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 4: There's no confident that no matter who wins the primary
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 4: that I mean, you know all these candidates personally, do
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 4: you think that all of them like could could definitely
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 4: beat Tom Tiffany.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 7: I think that there's a path with each of these candidates,
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 7: and I think that what that path looks like is
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 7: actually a little different with the different candidates. And they
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 7: are building the coalitions around them based on their approach
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 7: to campaigning and their their arguments. They're making them the positions
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 7: that they have and their own stories. And the thing
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 7: that would cause us to lose is if we lose
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 7: the nerve to say that we can win. If Democrats
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 7: decide the day after the primary that, oh, well, I
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 7: guess we're not going to win, then they will not win.
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 7: But if they say, you know what, this is a
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 7: state we're over and over thirteen times since two thousand,
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 7: we've had elections that come down to one percentage point
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 7: or less, and like donating that extra buck, like knocking
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 7: on that extra door, calling that extra friend, could be
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 7: the thing that tips the entire state. If we bring
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 7: that kind of will to the race, I think that
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 7: any of the candidates can beat Tom Tiffany and Wisconsin
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 7: could be a a thriving democracy for the future.
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 4: Last question, what is your thought process like as you
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 4: consider potentially running in the state that you love in Wisconsin?
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 7: Well, I love the living fit out of my state.
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 7: I just think Wisconsin is the greatest state, and I
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 7: will think about, you know, what I do in the future.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 7: In the future. I think my just obsession right now
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 7: is to make sure that Wisconsin not only wins the governorship,
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 7: but as I've mentioned the state legislative chambers in November,
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 7: and those will come probably down to a couple hundred
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 7: votes in a few different communities around the state. Like
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 7: it is, it has been the work of years to
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 7: unrig our state legislative maps to get to this point
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 7: where we have a shot at winning majorities in both
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 7: legislative chambers. And next year could be a blooming of
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 7: democracy and workers rights and of ability of folks to
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 7: get healthcare, all this stuff if we can win the
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 7: trifecta in Wisconsin in the next ninety nine days. So
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 7: I'm I have this book. I want to spread the
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 7: gospel of like rolling up puce sleeves getting involved. I
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 7: want to make sure that people see the kind of
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 7: hope that we've experienced in my state by building this
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 7: kind of permanent campaign on a year round basis. I
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 7: want more places to do that. And then I'm going
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 7: to just throw myself into with everything I've got into
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 7: the fight in my state, and then I'll figure out
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 7: what's next.
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 4: Well, I've to this on the pod when you're not here.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 4: That is a is a Democrat and a citizen. I
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 4: wanted you to be d n C chair because I
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 4: think it would have been good for the party and
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 4: good for the country. As your friend, sort of glad
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 4: you're not because it's such a terrible job no matter
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 4: who has it. But when it comes to running for
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 4: offs in Wisconsin as a citizen, a Democrat and your friend,
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 4: I would love you. I would love to see you
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 4: to run one of these days.
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 7: So I think about it, honored by the sentiment.
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 4: We need more Ben Wickler in America.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 7: So let's let's zero in on what all of us
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 7: can do. Yes, right now, that is That is my message,
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 7: that this is the plan.
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 4: He's on message. That's why we love Ben Wickler. Thanks
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 4: so much, Thanks so much, John. That's our show for today.
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 4: Thanks to Ben Wicker for coming on. Dan and I
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 4: will be back with a new episode on Friday. Positive
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 4: America is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 4: by Austin Fisher, Saul Ruben, McKenna Roberts, and Faris Safari
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 4: with re Jerlin, Elijah Cone and Adrian Hill. Our team
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 4: includes Matt de Grote, Ben Heffcote, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis Krol,
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 4: pel Avieve, David Toles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single.
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 4: Our staff is probably unionized with the Writers Guild of
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 4: America East