Latest / UK Column Radio / Facing the Tyrants — with Dr Sam Bailey

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Facing the Tyrants — with Dr Sam Bailey · UK Column Radio

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello.
0:07
Speaker 2: I'm Charles Mallett with a UK column interview and today
0:11
Speaker 2: I'm joined by doctor Sam Bailey, who has received a
0:14
Speaker 2: demand for one hundred and forty eight thousand New Zealand
0:18
Speaker 2: dollars by a disciplinary tribunal. Sam, thank you very much
0:24
Speaker 2: for joining me, and a very warm welcome to UK column.
0:27
Speaker 3: Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you
0:30
Speaker 3: so much for the invitation.
0:33
Speaker 1: Not at all.
0:33
Speaker 2: Now, as I alluded to, you have quite a well,
0:37
Speaker 2: let's say, challenge ahead of you in many regards. But
0:41
Speaker 2: I think what I'd like to do is just step
0:43
Speaker 2: back from that. There's going to be a lot to
0:44
Speaker 2: get through, but let's start with a bit of background
0:48
Speaker 2: and on the medical side of it, the career side
0:51
Speaker 2: of it. Just describe to me what your medical practice,
0:57
Speaker 2: what your life was like to twenty twenty, and your
1:02
Speaker 2: voyage into the public eye.
1:04
Speaker 3: Let's say, yes, well, I was trained conventionally at SO
1:10
Speaker 3: I went to Otago University in New Zealand and I
1:13
Speaker 3: worked in various different specialties, so general practice, emergency medicine,
1:19
Speaker 3: sexual health and clinical trials. I spent quite a long
1:23
Speaker 3: time with new drugs and I was the research position
1:28
Speaker 3: like the one of the lead physicians looking after the patients,
1:30
Speaker 3: so seeing people and looking after them while they're trialing
1:33
Speaker 3: new drugs. And I was always probably quite orthodox and conventional.
1:38
Speaker 3: I did everything by the book. I patients tended to
1:41
Speaker 3: like me a lot, and I never had a patient
1:44
Speaker 3: complaint and I started to get a little bit disgruntled
1:48
Speaker 3: with medicine the work a few years before twenty twenty.
1:54
Speaker 3: Where I got frustrated with the problems was trying to
1:57
Speaker 3: get treatments to people. So I started my own online
2:02
Speaker 3: doctor business, which was the first of its kind in
2:05
Speaker 3: New Zealand and before that kind of became normal. And
2:09
Speaker 3: as a consequence of that, I was sort of headhunted
2:12
Speaker 3: for a TV show to be a health presenter for
2:14
Speaker 3: that and I never thought you could do that as
2:18
Speaker 3: a doctor, and I loved it. I really loved doing presenting,
2:21
Speaker 3: and so I did a series for the like the
2:24
Speaker 3: main network in New Zealand. And then one of my
2:27
Speaker 3: very good friends suggested to me that I should start
2:31
Speaker 3: my own YouTube channel because of doing this presenting. And
2:35
Speaker 3: I thought, oh, really like people would want to watch
2:37
Speaker 3: a doctor And she said, yeah, yea, yeah, do that.
2:39
Speaker 3: You'd be really good at it. So in about halfway
2:42
Speaker 3: through twenty nineteen, I sort of started a channel, but
2:45
Speaker 3: it was mostly focused on my business that I had
2:47
Speaker 3: at that time. And then at the end of that year,
2:51
Speaker 3: I burnt myself out with this business, and then I
2:54
Speaker 3: decided I'm just going to go back into the work
2:56
Speaker 3: that I was doing and just do these YouTube videos
3:01
Speaker 3: on the side. And so I did that really and
3:05
Speaker 3: in yeah, twenty twenty happened, and so yeah, do you
3:09
Speaker 3: want me to continue with twenty twenty.
3:12
Speaker 2: Well tell you what just before we do get into that,
3:14
Speaker 2: because I think it's fascinating that it was that way round,
3:18
Speaker 2: in that you were very much in the public eye
3:21
Speaker 2: and you therefore had gone to YouTube's world, which I'm
3:25
Speaker 2: sure you might talk about a little bit later.
3:27
Speaker 1: But I think, given what's happened.
3:30
Speaker 2: Before or during perhaps your time speaking as a doctor
3:35
Speaker 2: on television, was there any was there any relationship there
3:39
Speaker 2: with the Medical Council of New Zealand as to sort
3:42
Speaker 2: of what you should or shouldn't do? I mean, you know,
3:45
Speaker 2: in terms of the messaging. Were you given pressure or
3:48
Speaker 2: direction from anywhere as to how to conduct yourself?
3:52
Speaker 3: No, not at all. So it was a scripted TV show,
3:56
Speaker 3: so it was based on a British teav show actually
4:01
Speaker 3: called I'm just trying to think of it, it's a
4:05
Speaker 3: doctor one. Sorry it's left me or come to me
4:07
Speaker 3: later that Michael Molesley was on that TV show, So
4:12
Speaker 3: that was what it was very much. I was one
4:14
Speaker 3: of four presenters, and because it was scripted, you couldn't
4:18
Speaker 3: go off piece at all, like it was. You said
4:21
Speaker 3: what you were supposed to say, and they taught me
4:24
Speaker 3: how to do presenting. Really I didn't know how to
4:26
Speaker 3: do any of that first until I did that TV
4:29
Speaker 3: show and I was they got me back for a
4:32
Speaker 3: second season and I was halfway through filming that in
4:35
Speaker 3: twenty twenty when everything went wrong.
4:39
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, but see that's fascinating looking back then, you know,
4:45
Speaker 2: to the fact that it was scripted and whatever. And
4:47
Speaker 2: now during public health in the way that you do,
4:52
Speaker 2: how do you sort of consider what it is that
4:55
Speaker 2: you were being asked to do and say.
4:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of forgiveness of you have to
5:02
Speaker 3: do of yourself of the things that I once believed in.
5:05
Speaker 3: And I think I think about this on lots of
5:08
Speaker 3: different areas, so crosses over into vaccination and in areas
5:13
Speaker 3: that I just assumed everything that I was taught was
5:16
Speaker 3: correct and I never questioned it and I never looked
5:19
Speaker 3: at it myself. And it was actually funny because when
5:23
Speaker 3: I started the YouTube channel in particular, people would write
5:26
Speaker 3: in and ask me questions, and I had a bit
5:28
Speaker 3: of hope, riss I thought that I knew everything, and
5:31
Speaker 3: then I realized the questions are asking me. I thought,
5:34
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I'm way out of my depth here.
5:36
Speaker 3: I don't know and the public are really well educated,
5:39
Speaker 3: and it really it humbled me to think, actually, you know,
5:44
Speaker 3: what I once knew was wrong, and I don't take
5:48
Speaker 3: anything for granted now. So that's what I focus in
5:52
Speaker 3: myself and my husband Mark, we focus on extensive research
5:56
Speaker 3: before we'll make a comment on anything. So yeah, I
6:00
Speaker 3: feel a little bit ashamed of what I was like,
6:03
Speaker 3: but you have to forgive yourself for that.
6:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, that's very candid.
6:09
Speaker 2: I think really, I was sort of considering it from
6:14
Speaker 2: the other side of it, as in, you were being
6:16
Speaker 2: used as a mouthpiece, as a trusted voice. I mean,
6:20
Speaker 2: so rather than considering your own part in it, I
6:23
Speaker 2: was wondering, also what you think about those that were
6:27
Speaker 2: using you in effect as a messaging tool.
6:32
Speaker 3: Definitely, that's totally what it was. And I was the
6:35
Speaker 3: most popular of the presenters. I knew that they told
6:39
Speaker 3: me that they gave me that feedback, and yeah, I didn't.
6:47
Speaker 3: I liked the idea of being on TV and that
6:49
Speaker 3: sort of thing, and you know, initially you feel really
6:52
Speaker 3: flattered by it, but they do use you for their
6:55
Speaker 3: own purposes. And now I look back at what the
6:57
Speaker 3: kind of subjects were, and they were clearly you know,
7:01
Speaker 3: came top down of these are the these are the
7:03
Speaker 3: talking points that we need to the public to be
7:06
Speaker 3: aware of. And yeah, and I was very naive to there.
7:11
Speaker 2: And so with that in my well, obviously you've had
7:14
Speaker 2: your husband Mark again medically trained. When the initial reporting
7:22
Speaker 2: was coming out sort of end of twenty nineteen about
7:24
Speaker 2: you know, yet another scary and mysterious illness from China,
7:29
Speaker 2: there was obviously a very much an echo to things
7:34
Speaker 2: that we'd heard previously over the last couple of decades.
7:37
Speaker 2: If you if you can recall what what what did
7:40
Speaker 2: you think at that point and you know, what were
7:43
Speaker 2: you talking about with Mark and those those around you.
7:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, so obviously we at the end of twenty nineteen
7:51
Speaker 3: beginning of twenty twenty, you know, we were paying attention
7:54
Speaker 3: to this, but a lot of it we thought, oh,
7:56
Speaker 3: this is this sounds like nothing, you know, like that
7:59
Speaker 3: nothing's going to come of it, really, And then as
8:01
Speaker 3: the media height really intensified, and this is at the
8:07
Speaker 3: stage I'm getting quite a few questions from my audience
8:10
Speaker 3: asking me to talk about coronavirus. And I only had
8:12
Speaker 3: a really small channel at this point, and I thought, oh,
8:15
Speaker 3: I felt a bit uncomfortable with it because I didn't know.
8:18
Speaker 3: And I thought, I don't really want to report on
8:20
Speaker 3: this until I know more. And Mark was heavily behind
8:25
Speaker 3: me doing the research, or both of us were at
8:28
Speaker 3: that stage trying to put the pieces together. And I
8:32
Speaker 3: think the overwhelming feeling was, and I'm sure you and
8:36
Speaker 3: your audience wouldn't identify with this, was that it didn't
8:41
Speaker 3: the messaging that we were getting on the media didn't
8:43
Speaker 3: have any semblance of what was happening in reality, Like
8:47
Speaker 3: you could look outside and think this looks completely normal,
8:50
Speaker 3: like everything's fine, but why are they saying all this?
8:53
Speaker 3: And that it was that mismatch of information that really
8:57
Speaker 3: set us off on looking into it, and particularly I
9:02
Speaker 3: had no interest in virology and viruses. I'll be perfectly honest.
9:06
Speaker 3: It's a very dry, boring subject and I never thought
9:10
Speaker 3: that that would be something that we would end up
9:13
Speaker 3: diving into so deeply, but it is what happened because
9:18
Speaker 3: we had to understand for ourselves. And I think we
9:21
Speaker 3: looked initially at the WHO information and realize, this doesn't
9:26
Speaker 3: this doesn't add up the people that are dying elderly
9:30
Speaker 3: at their time of life, end of life, this is
9:33
Speaker 3: this is really there's big problems here, and then obviously
9:36
Speaker 3: dived right into the research.
9:42
Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, the audience obviously UK column
9:45
Speaker 2: audience is predominantly based in the UK, but we do
9:48
Speaker 2: have a very wide base all over the world, and
9:51
Speaker 2: everybody will identify. Anyone certainly listens to this will identify
9:55
Speaker 2: exactly with what you're saying. To what extent in New Zealand,
9:59
Speaker 2: a country that I think from the outside it looked
10:01
Speaker 2: like it had an incredibly harsh regime imposed. To what
10:05
Speaker 2: extent did that was that telegraph?
10:07
Speaker 1: Did it did it.
10:08
Speaker 2: Seem like it was going to go bananas? Or was
10:11
Speaker 2: that Did that come as an enormous surprise.
10:14
Speaker 3: They really tested the population quite a lot with I
10:19
Speaker 3: think the media in itself was very critical of like
10:24
Speaker 3: they really like Jasinda Adoun was framed as this kind
10:30
Speaker 3: of savior in a way, and so she was coming
10:33
Speaker 3: off she was still very popular because of other things
10:37
Speaker 3: that had happened over the previous years, and so I
10:40
Speaker 3: think the fear was ramped up massively and the population
10:45
Speaker 3: were like putty in the hands of the authorities, and
10:48
Speaker 3: you know, extremely they just went along with it all,
10:52
Speaker 3: and you know, it was extremely authoritarian. Mark and I
10:56
Speaker 3: didn't go along with any of it from the beginning
10:59
Speaker 3: because we thought it was wrong and had no basis,
11:03
Speaker 3: and you know, these ideas of mandates and things. Obviously
11:07
Speaker 3: these are agreements, and we went on into that. But
11:10
Speaker 3: you realized too how politicians were portrayed overseas, Like over
11:16
Speaker 3: the time, just Sinda became more and more unpopular, but
11:20
Speaker 3: overseas she was still portrayed as this amazing person and
11:24
Speaker 3: was doing all these wonderful things. But it was I mean,
11:28
Speaker 3: even we had those extreme MiQ quarantine rules where it
11:34
Speaker 3: was basically like coming into a prison if you were
11:37
Speaker 3: coming back into the country as a new Zealander, and
11:39
Speaker 3: you would be in these quarantine situations and I mean,
11:43
Speaker 3: looking back now, there's no way they could get away
11:45
Speaker 3: with it now. But at that time, I think the
11:48
Speaker 3: population was incredibly fearful of what this thing was.
11:55
Speaker 1: I think that's it.
11:55
Speaker 2: And I think again, really, wherever anyone was that thes
12:00
Speaker 2: was just so surprising that people were almost exclusively caught
12:04
Speaker 2: off guard. Now for the majority of us, without any
12:09
Speaker 2: skin in the game, as it were, with no medical training,
12:12
Speaker 2: no medical professional links, whether or not to, as you say,
12:17
Speaker 2: go along with it, it was a different decision for
12:20
Speaker 2: you to decide to not go along with it or
12:24
Speaker 2: to speak out is of an altogether different order of magnitude.
12:30
Speaker 2: Just describe how it was that you did make that
12:34
Speaker 2: decision to become active and to speak out and therefore
12:39
Speaker 2: to put your reputation, as it were, on the line.
12:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess. So in early twenty twenty, we were
12:49
Speaker 3: getting these requests and people were asking and I thought, Okay,
12:53
Speaker 3: I'll just say what I think and say that this
12:55
Speaker 3: is my opinion. And because I maybe it's my naive personality,
13:01
Speaker 3: but that's what I'm like. I just think, oh, I'll
13:03
Speaker 3: just say what I think. And you know, I didn't know,
13:07
Speaker 3: I had no idea what was coming. But we found
13:10
Speaker 3: this book virus Mania, which was critical for Mark and I.
13:15
Speaker 3: Mark found it first, and it was about the history
13:18
Speaker 3: of virology, of the different pandemics that have happened before,
13:21
Speaker 3: and how you could see what was playing out real time.
13:25
Speaker 3: And that caused a paradigm shift in my thinking and
13:30
Speaker 3: Mark's thinking, and a lot of the themes of my
13:34
Speaker 3: videos then became focused on this virus Mania book because
13:38
Speaker 3: I just I found it. So the shift of losing
13:42
Speaker 3: fear and about what pandemics were and not being scared.
13:46
Speaker 3: So and again this was not sort of intentional. I
13:50
Speaker 3: had no idea what was playing out because I was
13:53
Speaker 3: still working at this point as a doctor in clinical trials.
13:56
Speaker 3: I had my you know, bread and butter as it were.
14:02
Speaker 3: But my videos are really popular. So I did one
14:05
Speaker 3: on social distancing, and I think it got over six
14:08
Speaker 3: hundred thousand views on YouTube, and I didn't, you know,
14:11
Speaker 3: it was really surprising to me, and people would get
14:15
Speaker 3: very angry in the comments, and I thought, okay, well,
14:18
Speaker 3: I'm just going to play along with this. I'm just
14:20
Speaker 3: going to carry on see what happens. But it was
14:23
Speaker 3: really September twenty twenty that it was my crossing of
14:27
Speaker 3: the Rubicon where I made a video and I consciously
14:32
Speaker 3: did this where I knew that there was in New
14:36
Speaker 3: Zealand at that time. It was just before the elections
14:39
Speaker 3: were happening, and a lady that I knew was running
14:43
Speaker 3: a PCR clinic in my hometown, christ Church, and she
14:49
Speaker 3: told me that they'd shut it down for several months
14:51
Speaker 3: before and that now the Ministry of Health were pumping
14:54
Speaker 3: all this money in. And I knew when they did
14:57
Speaker 3: that that the testing would go up, and therefore the
14:59
Speaker 3: cases would go up and the fear, and so I
15:03
Speaker 3: made a video about that, and as a side issue,
15:06
Speaker 3: I kind of said I won't have a Corona's virus
15:10
Speaker 3: vaccine if and when it comes about. And I thought,
15:14
Speaker 3: I'm saying this is my opinion, and I specifically said,
15:17
Speaker 3: I'm not telling you what to do. You've got to
15:19
Speaker 3: make your own decision, but this is what I'm doing.
15:22
Speaker 3: And then I had a phone call from the TV
15:24
Speaker 3: show from the lawyer saying take down your video, and
15:29
Speaker 3: I was sort of just so affronted. I was like,
15:31
Speaker 3: what what do they think? They're not the editor of
15:34
Speaker 3: my YouTube channel. I can go and get stuffed. And
15:37
Speaker 3: so I said no, and they said, well, take down,
15:41
Speaker 3: take out the bit on vaccines. And I knew then
15:45
Speaker 3: what this was all about. And this happened, and you
15:49
Speaker 3: realize how planned these things are because that happened. Then
15:53
Speaker 3: I had an email from the Medical Council saying I'd
15:57
Speaker 3: had all these complaints about this video. There was smear
16:02
Speaker 3: articles from AFP and you know, the fact checking organizations.
16:07
Speaker 3: Facebook was blocking my video and yeah, it just it
16:13
Speaker 3: was like my whole world changed at that point. The
16:18
Speaker 3: job that I'd had for a long time, for twelve
16:20
Speaker 3: years told me to stop coming into work and it
16:24
Speaker 3: was at the time it was really shocking and kind
16:29
Speaker 3: of but you're sort of just on running on adrenaline
16:32
Speaker 3: and not really. I didn't go into it thinking I'm
16:35
Speaker 3: going to create this for myself, like this is going
16:37
Speaker 3: to happen to me. I had no idea what was
16:40
Speaker 3: kind of coming. But I'm so so grateful for it
16:44
Speaker 3: because it was It's really what I needed. It's what
16:48
Speaker 3: needed to happen to me to make me really wake
16:51
Speaker 3: up to much bigger problems.
16:55
Speaker 1: It is amazing.
16:56
Speaker 2: I mean, with the benefit of findsight again and given
16:59
Speaker 2: your experience with clinical trials, we even that even with
17:05
Speaker 2: that in mine, you sort of shocked at well, either
17:09
Speaker 2: directly or in directly the power of the pharmaceutical industry.
17:15
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think what shocked me most, Charles was just
17:20
Speaker 3: I thought we had I thought we lived in a
17:22
Speaker 3: country with free speech. And I know that sounds so naive.
17:27
Speaker 3: At the time, I really believed that I could say
17:29
Speaker 3: what I thought and there wouldn't be negative consequences in
17:33
Speaker 3: that way, that they would target my work and my
17:36
Speaker 3: reputation and everything else. And that's what really shocked me,
17:40
Speaker 3: was thinking, oh, this is really controlled. And then later
17:43
Speaker 3: on I found out that the Ministry of Health had
17:46
Speaker 3: been watching me for six months before they did anything,
17:49
Speaker 3: and the head of the Medical Council, the CEO, was
17:54
Speaker 3: talking to the Director General of Health and these are
17:57
Speaker 3: incredibly powerful conversations up me and about my YouTube channel
18:02
Speaker 3: and the problem I was causing for them. And that
18:06
Speaker 3: shocked me too when I found that out later that
18:08
Speaker 3: I thought, I'm just one individual, How can it be
18:11
Speaker 3: that I'm causing so many ripples? But it was very coordinated.
18:18
Speaker 2: It's amazing, especially that the specific trigger for that was
18:22
Speaker 2: quite clearly a reference to a vactine that as far
18:25
Speaker 2: as anyone was aware by that point didn't even exist.
18:30
Speaker 2: Was there further articulation on that point about you know
18:35
Speaker 2: that you should sort of undergo correct you know, were
18:38
Speaker 2: there the suggestion that you might put out a different
18:41
Speaker 2: message or was it just to do taking it down?
18:43
Speaker 2: I mean, were you ever given the sense that you
18:45
Speaker 2: would there to at some point promote such a product.
18:50
Speaker 3: No, it was really this all came from that TV show.
18:54
Speaker 3: Lawyer was that basically stop it and you know, just
19:00
Speaker 3: stop this. And they think they thought that they could
19:02
Speaker 3: quite quickly and easily that I would just go away quietly,
19:06
Speaker 3: and they were, I think surprised that I was not
19:11
Speaker 3: going to do that. Yeah. So and at this point
19:15
Speaker 3: to the Medical Council are asking me to sign a
19:19
Speaker 3: gag order and say that I can't make any videos
19:23
Speaker 3: on COVID nineteen. I can talk about anything else, but
19:26
Speaker 3: not COVID nineteen. And there was no way I was
19:30
Speaker 3: going to bend the knee to that, because it's like
19:32
Speaker 3: leading the camel in the tent. You know, you don't
19:35
Speaker 3: you don't let them have anything otherwise. And I look,
19:39
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful I did that because most of the
19:42
Speaker 3: doctors that have gone through this process, at least in
19:44
Speaker 3: New Zealand have signed that order because they thought that
19:48
Speaker 3: they had to, whereas I knew straightaway that this was
19:54
Speaker 3: only going to lead to very bad things.
19:56
Speaker 2: Absolutely, well that's the right call for certainly for your
20:01
Speaker 2: burgeoning audience, I mean.
20:03
Speaker 1: Thank goodness.
20:04
Speaker 2: But did they specify why was it that you couldn't
20:10
Speaker 2: say anything? Or was the inference that anything you were
20:13
Speaker 2: going to say was going to be negative or the
20:16
Speaker 2: wrong message?
20:16
Speaker 1: I mean, did they actually sort of spell that out?
20:19
Speaker 3: Well, it was based on these complaints that I was,
20:22
Speaker 3: you know, causing public had the potential to cause public
20:26
Speaker 3: harm and because my messaging was going against the government
20:32
Speaker 3: at that time, still is I guess the one source
20:35
Speaker 3: of truth they couldn't have it that it was that
20:39
Speaker 3: was that was the reason. And I I mean I
20:43
Speaker 3: didn't even anticipate that this is the way that they'd go.
20:47
Speaker 3: Like I thought, there's no way because the Medical Council
20:49
Speaker 3: they can control my license practicing as a doctor. And
20:54
Speaker 3: after that kind of happened, I was like, I can't
20:56
Speaker 3: be part of this. I can't be part of this
20:58
Speaker 3: corrupt medical system. It's terrible and decided I'm not going
21:03
Speaker 3: to renew my license sort of. You know, this is
21:06
Speaker 3: at the end of twenty twenty, but you know, before that,
21:10
Speaker 3: I thought, I thought that I had no power to
21:14
Speaker 3: control my speech of what I'm doing in my private life. Essentially,
21:18
Speaker 3: it's not. But they the problem with me was that
21:21
Speaker 3: I had by that stage a huge reach and a
21:24
Speaker 3: huge audience, and they were I was making them very nervous.
21:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, evidently so.
21:30
Speaker 2: And just you just mentioned that the certificate to practice
21:34
Speaker 2: and then the register itself, because there was a development there.
21:38
Speaker 2: But I think the following year, in twenty twenty one,
21:40
Speaker 2: what happened then with regard to the register.
21:43
Speaker 3: In order to practice in a New Zealand, at least
21:46
Speaker 3: you have to have you're on the register, which means
21:49
Speaker 3: you're kind of on their list of doctors, and then
21:52
Speaker 3: you apply for a practicing certificate every year where you
21:55
Speaker 3: pay the fee to the Medical Council and that allows
21:59
Speaker 3: you to prescribe, cribe and order you know, blood tests
22:03
Speaker 3: and so forth. So in twenty twenty one, I'm on
22:09
Speaker 3: the register and I had a practicing certificate, but I
22:12
Speaker 3: was actually pregnant at that time, and I decided, for
22:17
Speaker 3: various reasons as well, that I don't want to do
22:19
Speaker 3: this anymore. And so my practicing certificate expired in May
22:24
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one. And as soon as that happened
22:30
Speaker 3: and I published another video on YouTube, then they said
22:33
Speaker 3: that I was practicing medicine without a license by making
22:39
Speaker 3: by publishing YouTube videos and that's a criminal offense in
22:44
Speaker 3: New Zealand. That if you're putting, you're practicing and seeing
22:48
Speaker 3: patients without being licensed, you know, you can go it's
22:52
Speaker 3: it's criminal. So that was when things really started heating
22:57
Speaker 3: up because at that point I still had a lawyer,
23:00
Speaker 3: and they see that this is very important that I
23:02
Speaker 3: fight this because otherwise I will be, you know, it
23:06
Speaker 3: could be facing you know, a serious growing to jail.
23:10
Speaker 1: You know.
23:10
Speaker 2: This is where we get into the sort of nuts
23:14
Speaker 2: and bolts, obviously in the way in which the book
23:16
Speaker 2: has been thrown at you via the incredibly worded legislation
23:22
Speaker 2: contained in the Act that covers all of this, going
23:24
Speaker 2: back to I think two thousand and three, and I'm
23:27
Speaker 2: just going to read now what happened a little bit
23:31
Speaker 2: later in August twenty twenty three, when a tribunal was convened.
23:34
Speaker 2: I don't want to jump ahead necessarily, but I think
23:36
Speaker 2: the audience just needs to understand what happened, and specifically,
23:41
Speaker 2: the tribunal convened and ordered cancelation of registration not to
23:48
Speaker 2: apply for reregistration for two years from the date of
23:51
Speaker 2: the decision. Since here fine of ten thousand dollars, conditions
23:56
Speaker 2: on reregistration and then payment of one hundred and forty
24:01
Speaker 2: eight four hundred and fifty dollars and forty one cents
24:04
Speaker 2: amounting to sixty percent of the costs of the PCC
24:09
Speaker 2: investigation and hearing estimated costs, it is perfectly astonishing. I
24:16
Speaker 2: would say to me, to anybody listening to what you
24:19
Speaker 2: said so far, that that could possibly be the result
24:25
Speaker 2: of any of this. But as I say, I have
24:28
Speaker 2: left the heads slightly intentionally say, because how on earth
24:33
Speaker 2: did it get to that point and to what extent
24:35
Speaker 2: were you involved in any of that.
24:39
Speaker 3: I tried to go to deal with this, you know, legally,
24:45
Speaker 3: I guess with a lawyer. I hit a QSA that
24:48
Speaker 3: was helping me at that time, the Queen's Council, and
24:52
Speaker 3: I thought, I thought that this was legitimate, that I
24:55
Speaker 3: can fight this and say because I was saying things
24:58
Speaker 3: like I was spreading this information and I would ask well,
25:01
Speaker 3: what is it? What is the misinformation? And they couldn't
25:04
Speaker 3: define it because they don't know it was going against
25:08
Speaker 3: what the government was saying that is deemed as misinformation,
25:12
Speaker 3: and so I tried to under bad advice, I went
25:18
Speaker 3: to the High Court to try and stop this from happening,
25:21
Speaker 3: because they were now saying that I was practicing without
25:23
Speaker 3: a license and that didn't go in my favor. And
25:28
Speaker 3: after that I realized that there was nothing I could do.
25:32
Speaker 3: They were going to take me to this disciplinary tribunal.
25:35
Speaker 3: And it really shocked me because I thought, what is
25:39
Speaker 3: this what I'm only telling the truth. I haven't been lying.
25:44
Speaker 3: There's no advantage for me doing this. But I felt
25:49
Speaker 3: very strongly that people need, you need to speak up
25:53
Speaker 3: and say when you see something going that's wrong and
25:57
Speaker 3: anyway it's leading into twenty twenty two, a few doctors
26:05
Speaker 3: had done this process of equity, which was completely new
26:07
Speaker 3: to me. And equity is the idea that if you
26:10
Speaker 3: haven't done any harm, it applies to all of us
26:12
Speaker 3: in common law jurisdiction, so New Zealand's one of them.
26:17
Speaker 3: England will is another one. Obviously, is that you with
26:21
Speaker 3: the principles of equity I have no contract with them.
26:26
Speaker 3: They're trying to establish a trust with me and basically
26:28
Speaker 3: make themselves a beneficiary in order to get money off me.
26:32
Speaker 3: Is essentially what the process is. And under the process
26:36
Speaker 3: of equity, this is I have no contract with them.
26:39
Speaker 3: So there was a doctor that had basically was going
26:43
Speaker 3: through the process of being investigated in New Zealand, doctor
26:46
Speaker 3: Minnie Garcia, and he was just did this process which
26:50
Speaker 3: is issuing them notices and he was removed off the
26:54
Speaker 3: register like no, nothing was said. He was just taken
26:58
Speaker 3: off the register. And I talked to Manny and he said, Sam,
27:02
Speaker 3: you've got to go down this process. You're it's corrupt
27:06
Speaker 3: the tribunal, the whole investigation. You can't go into their system.
27:13
Speaker 3: And so Mannie convinced me and I thought, I'm going
27:16
Speaker 3: to try this. And at the same time, Mark, my husband,
27:19
Speaker 3: who hasn't practiced as a doctor since twenty sixteen by
27:22
Speaker 3: this point he was being now investigated for doing an interview,
27:28
Speaker 3: not trying to prosecute him as well. And so he
27:30
Speaker 3: did this process of equity, never communicated with the Medical Council,
27:34
Speaker 3: and was again removed off the register. No information about
27:39
Speaker 3: this just you can see that he was taken off
27:41
Speaker 3: the medical register, and we knew about another three or
27:44
Speaker 3: four doctors that had done this. So for me, they
27:47
Speaker 3: didn't take me off, but I now realize it was
27:51
Speaker 3: because I was too much of a problem for them.
27:53
Speaker 3: They needed me as an example to other doctors. So
27:58
Speaker 3: the process went through the tribunal and I never engaged
28:02
Speaker 3: with them after early twenty twenty two because I realized
28:07
Speaker 3: that I can't I can't win in this is it's
28:11
Speaker 3: literally a kangaroo court that they operate and they they
28:16
Speaker 3: determine the outcome before you've even started. Like I realized
28:21
Speaker 3: now that that was as soon as I had the
28:22
Speaker 3: first complaint, it was already determined what was going to
28:27
Speaker 3: happen to me. In fact, and I will mention this
28:29
Speaker 3: because its effects the UK audience, But one thing that
28:33
Speaker 3: I found crazy was that there was there is a
28:36
Speaker 3: UK doctor who's currently practicing who made a complaint about
28:41
Speaker 3: me in that early time, who said that I was
28:45
Speaker 3: his treating doctor, and this complaint was upheld by the
28:52
Speaker 3: Medical Council as a legitimate complaint. Because there are different
28:55
Speaker 3: pathways that you can complain about a doctor in this UK.
29:00
Speaker 3: GP seid that I was seeing him, and that because
29:05
Speaker 3: he was watching my videos, he was choosing to And
29:09
Speaker 3: this isn't held up as some delusion. This is accepted
29:13
Speaker 3: by the Medical Council and that this is how crazy
29:15
Speaker 3: it is, like, it's not there's no connection with reality.
29:19
Speaker 1: Of what you know, it's going on, none whatsoever.
29:23
Speaker 2: And the actor that I referred to is the Health
29:26
Speaker 2: Practitioners Competence Assurance Act of two thousand and three. And
29:29
Speaker 2: for anyone who's put their head anywhere near any so
29:32
Speaker 2: called public health legislation, they will know that the sort
29:35
Speaker 2: of the tenor of it, and it is perfect extraordinary,
29:38
Speaker 2: corrupt is exactly the right word. I'm just going to
29:40
Speaker 2: read a little bit more from the results of the tribunal,
29:44
Speaker 2: and part of it, the charge summary said that the
29:49
Speaker 2: PCC submitted that Section ninety three does not require evidence
29:55
Speaker 2: of actual harm, but risk of serious harm posed by
29:58
Speaker 2: the charged conduct. And then they go on say it
30:01
Speaker 2: was therefore submitted that the Tribunal can be satisfied that
30:05
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey's conduct poses a risk of serious harm to
30:09
Speaker 2: the public. So at the same time they're saying that
30:12
Speaker 2: there's no need to provide evidence of such, but that
30:15
Speaker 2: the risk is still there now. From what I read,
30:20
Speaker 2: I don't think they even articulated what sort of harm
30:24
Speaker 2: they were imagining could be serious and potential.
30:26
Speaker 1: Did that ever actually come out?
30:29
Speaker 3: No, it was essentially two expert witnesses that are highly
30:35
Speaker 3: compromised anyway because they work for the vaccine industry and
30:38
Speaker 3: the government and say said that I on their opinion
30:45
Speaker 3: that I was a hit the potential of public helm
30:50
Speaker 3: and they don't have to provide any data for this.
30:52
Speaker 3: They just state it and that's accepted, and that's part
30:57
Speaker 3: of the costs. Because everything that they do, it's just
31:01
Speaker 3: like an open check book which is eventually charged back
31:04
Speaker 3: to me. So if they decide to fly down these
31:08
Speaker 3: individuals to do the tribunal and stay in hotels and
31:12
Speaker 3: have meals and everything else, that's all just put on
31:15
Speaker 3: the doctor Sam Bailey, you know, tickets there, and it's
31:21
Speaker 3: charged to the Medical Council and then they pass it
31:23
Speaker 3: on to me as part of the costs. And it's
31:26
Speaker 3: it's literally it could be anything. There's no checking or
31:29
Speaker 3: anything of what what should be done, what the costs are.
31:34
Speaker 3: It's it's completely arbitrary.
31:37
Speaker 1: It is I mean, well, I think it's more than that.
31:39
Speaker 1: I mean it's a complete racket.
31:40
Speaker 2: You in the back and forth hour before this, you
31:43
Speaker 2: you you phrased it very well. I thought you put
31:45
Speaker 2: it down as you being asked to pay for your
31:47
Speaker 2: own persecution, which is precisely what it is. I mean,
31:51
Speaker 2: it is absolutely astonishing, and just go a bit further
31:53
Speaker 2: on the on the utter corruption. The threat of suspense
32:01
Speaker 2: was written down as such, suspension will limit doctor Bailey's
32:06
Speaker 2: ability to advertise herself as a doctor when she expresses
32:09
Speaker 2: harmful views. If after suspension of registration she continued to
32:13
Speaker 2: use the title doctor, she would likely commit an offense
32:17
Speaker 2: against Section seven brackets one of the Act. Now, that
32:22
Speaker 2: piqued my curiosity because certainly in the United Kingdom is
32:26
Speaker 2: totally customary for people to be referred to as doctor,
32:28
Speaker 2: regardless of whether they hold a medical doctorate or otherwise,
32:31
Speaker 2: regardless of whether they're practicing or retired. So I emailed
32:34
Speaker 2: the Medical Council of New Zealand and said what's the
32:37
Speaker 2: form in terms of etiquette and procedure and whatever?
32:41
Speaker 1: And I got the.
32:42
Speaker 2: Reply back saying the title doctor is not a protected
32:46
Speaker 2: title under current legislation. As such, individuals who have retired
32:50
Speaker 2: from medical practice may choose to continue using the title
32:53
Speaker 2: doctor if they wish. This is common practice. So they
32:57
Speaker 2: are corrupting at every turn, is quite clearly abusing the
33:02
Speaker 2: letter of the law as written down that they refer
33:05
Speaker 2: to in section one. I have of course looked at
33:07
Speaker 2: section one. There's absolutely nothing about that. So they are
33:11
Speaker 2: utterly moving the goalposts in order to catch you wherever
33:15
Speaker 2: it is you decide to go, or even if you
33:18
Speaker 2: don't necessarily do anything. What this does is it brings
33:23
Speaker 2: us to the Medical Council themselves, because, like you say,
33:28
Speaker 2: the law only allows them to fine of up to
33:31
Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars, but then they can increase by using
33:36
Speaker 2: the word costs. And therefore, in a sense, the sky's
33:40
Speaker 2: the limit. But where exactly does to the medical counts
33:43
Speaker 2: of New Zealand fit in in terms of the sort
33:46
Speaker 2: of state architecture, how are they positioned and funded and
33:50
Speaker 2: the rest of it.
33:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they are a body corporate in they are
33:55
Speaker 3: funded by medical practitioners, so they medical practitioners pay the
34:01
Speaker 3: money every year in order so that the doctor can
34:05
Speaker 3: prescribe and so forth. So that's where the most that's
34:07
Speaker 3: where their money comes from. But it also means that
34:10
Speaker 3: they're not. You can't do freedom of information requests about
34:15
Speaker 3: to them because they're a private body, corporate. They're listed
34:19
Speaker 3: on the done In barredfoot register, you know, as a
34:25
Speaker 3: as a as a company. So there are twelve members
34:28
Speaker 3: of the Medical Council. And this used to be like
34:31
Speaker 3: an organization that was four doctors run by doctors. So
34:35
Speaker 3: it was there to try and I guess protect doctors,
34:39
Speaker 3: and now it's to protect the public whatever that's supposed
34:43
Speaker 3: to mean. And they have twelve members and eight of
34:47
Speaker 3: them are chosen by the government of whatever, you know.
34:51
Speaker 3: So they are clearly an agency that are controlling a
34:55
Speaker 3: control by the government to control doctors. Yeah, so it's
35:00
Speaker 3: there's no regulation of them. I don't I've looked into that.
35:04
Speaker 3: Of who kicks them?
35:07
Speaker 2: There is none, Yeah, I mean, which seems absolutely astonishing
35:12
Speaker 2: on its own, but especially when you consider that they
35:15
Speaker 2: are able to set up a process by which they
35:17
Speaker 2: may recover costs that are in effect to their own benefit,
35:25
Speaker 2: either as a PR exercise or simply a financial one.
35:30
Speaker 2: On the PR side of it, obviously, you are in
35:35
Speaker 2: New Zealand and across the world a public figure, you know,
35:39
Speaker 2: you have, as you said, as you described previously been
35:42
Speaker 2: on the television in your capacity as then a practicing doctor,
35:46
Speaker 2: subsequently on YouTube. You know you are well known to
35:50
Speaker 2: a lot of people who've looked into this and actually
35:52
Speaker 2: taken the time to try and work out what on
35:54
Speaker 2: earth is going on? How has this been reported elsewhere
35:59
Speaker 2: because clearly you know you have put out we're talking
36:02
Speaker 2: about it on a UK column interview. It seems from
36:07
Speaker 2: perhaps our side of the fence, there's a terrific potential
36:09
Speaker 2: for a backfire effect against the Medical Council. I mean,
36:13
Speaker 2: it seems to be an incredibly stupid thing for them
36:16
Speaker 2: to do because it draws attention to you and to
36:19
Speaker 2: what you're doing, and we'll ask people to ask questions.
36:24
Speaker 2: But has there been a sort of a messaging attempt
36:28
Speaker 2: from them in so far as this is concerned.
36:33
Speaker 3: I think what has been really interesting, like you say,
36:37
Speaker 3: is the I can only comment on what I've seen
36:40
Speaker 3: in New Zealand in terms of the because I've hit
36:43
Speaker 3: a lot of recently, I've hit a huge a lot
36:45
Speaker 3: of smear tics by the mainstream media and ninety percent
36:51
Speaker 3: plus of people in the comment section are supporting me,
36:54
Speaker 3: and it was astonishing because most people that are talked too, said,
37:00
Speaker 3: I've been reading because I don't read them. I can't
37:02
Speaker 3: stand reading mainstream media. But you know, we'll go through
37:06
Speaker 3: it and tell me that they could find one comment
37:09
Speaker 3: out of one hundred and you know, two hundred comments
37:11
Speaker 3: and one's negative or something. So I know that the
37:15
Speaker 3: public are on my side. But also in terms of
37:18
Speaker 3: the Medical Council, so there really are an ivory tower
37:21
Speaker 3: that are just in their own land of I don't
37:24
Speaker 3: think they realize what is coming to them in terms
37:28
Speaker 3: of negative consequences just from the public. The messaging is
37:33
Speaker 3: for the doctors. This is what it's all about, is
37:36
Speaker 3: I don't think the Medical Council necessarily care about the public,
37:40
Speaker 3: which is a foolish mistake in my opinion. But they
37:44
Speaker 3: are very worried about doctors doing the same as me
37:47
Speaker 3: and speaking out, and it's they're really clamping down. So
37:51
Speaker 3: recently there was a case of a doctor who spoke
37:56
Speaker 3: out because they were going to bring in McDonald's into
37:59
Speaker 3: a small kind of rural, touristy town and a doctor
38:03
Speaker 3: said that they didn't think it was a healthy choice,
38:05
Speaker 3: that they shouldn't be doing this, and the Medical Council
38:09
Speaker 3: were trying to censor this doctor for saying that, and
38:13
Speaker 3: you realize this is just escalating, and I am. I
38:19
Speaker 3: think the most important message really is for doctors is
38:22
Speaker 3: realizing that this is such a slippery slope that it's
38:26
Speaker 3: I know that it's bad for me, but really it's
38:29
Speaker 3: not bad for me, because it doesn't change what I do.
38:32
Speaker 3: But I can see what is happening to doctors and
38:35
Speaker 3: how they are being very much funneled into a certain direction,
38:41
Speaker 3: and I foresee it as something terrible. But what the
38:45
Speaker 3: public see, which I think is great, is that they
38:49
Speaker 3: do not trust doctors and the medical system is such
38:53
Speaker 3: like they did prior to twenty twenty because of everything
38:56
Speaker 3: that's happened.
38:57
Speaker 1: That's absolutely right.
38:58
Speaker 2: So I realized as we gay that there's one thing
39:01
Speaker 2: I haven't allowed you to make clear, which is that
39:04
Speaker 2: even if the fine was only for five dollars, your
39:08
Speaker 2: point in relation to all of this, and your response,
39:11
Speaker 2: of course, is that this concerns the principle and not
39:14
Speaker 2: the amount of money. So to just give you your
39:17
Speaker 2: view of your response to the demand for money.
39:21
Speaker 3: Yes, so I'm not paying them anything, and I've had
39:26
Speaker 3: incredibly generous offers of people wanting to do go fund me,
39:30
Speaker 3: and you know, the crowdfunding sort of things, and I
39:34
Speaker 3: know I could probably raise it money easily, but I
39:37
Speaker 3: don't want to. I don't want anyone else's money and
39:40
Speaker 3: I don't want my money to pay money to this
39:44
Speaker 3: corrupt I mean, they're essentially like a terrorist organization. They
39:48
Speaker 3: operate out of fear of instilling fear in people, and
39:53
Speaker 3: I will not do it. I will not submit to them.
39:58
Speaker 2: Good for you is what I sa And I'm sure
40:00
Speaker 2: absolutely everybody listening and a lot of people will. This
40:03
Speaker 2: will be sent very very far and wide, and people
40:05
Speaker 2: will absolutely say good for you. And that is the principle.
40:09
Speaker 2: So anybody listening, don't reach under your mattress to pull
40:13
Speaker 2: something out to give sam to fund a corrupt organization
40:17
Speaker 2: as part of a corrupt process. But instead, you know,
40:20
Speaker 2: listen to the principle of the matter and to what
40:22
Speaker 2: she says about it. And this actually brings us on
40:25
Speaker 2: to the next point, which again you know that in
40:27
Speaker 2: terms of the law that the book that's being thrown
40:29
Speaker 2: at you, of course, that this concerns or the heart
40:33
Speaker 2: of this is free speech, and they broke from the
40:39
Speaker 2: charge detail. It is slightly lengthy, but I think it
40:42
Speaker 2: does bear reading. In relation to freedom of speech, the
40:47
Speaker 2: Tribune agrees that while the doctor may express an opinion
40:50
Speaker 2: on medical matters, professional standards require her to do so
40:54
Speaker 2: in a balanced way. The doctor's professional obligations constantly the
41:00
Speaker 2: justified limitation on the right to freedom of speech. The
41:05
Speaker 2: justified limitation on the right to freedom of speech. Health
41:12
Speaker 2: professionals must consider and assess evidence in a balanced manner,
41:17
Speaker 2: providing sufficient evidence from reputable sources especially essential within the
41:23
Speaker 2: context of a public health response where the potential for
41:27
Speaker 2: harm is greater. I think those words are absolutely extraordinary.
41:35
Speaker 2: And if anybody can read those and think that that
41:38
Speaker 2: seems fine, there is a very very big problem.
41:42
Speaker 1: What on earth.
41:44
Speaker 2: Do they mean when they talk about things being done
41:48
Speaker 2: in a balanced way.
41:51
Speaker 3: Well, it was the same that happened with we beackon
41:56
Speaker 3: April twenty twenty one in New Zealand all doctors. It
41:59
Speaker 3: was a state a guidance statement that was put out
42:01
Speaker 3: to all doctors. In it said when you're giving advice
42:06
Speaker 3: for patients about vaccination, you must promote the benefits of
42:11
Speaker 3: the vaccination. That was it. You couldn't talk about the negatives,
42:18
Speaker 3: only the benefits. And that where again they said in
42:22
Speaker 3: this document that you were expected as a medical practitioner
42:25
Speaker 3: to go and have be vaccinated. So this was a
42:28
Speaker 3: statement that went out to all doctors. So it's very
42:30
Speaker 3: clear what they're signposting here and saying you must do this.
42:34
Speaker 3: Of course, this is absolutely ridiculous, the balanced reporting. I mean,
42:41
Speaker 3: I can give so many examples and I'm sure you
42:43
Speaker 3: know the same in the UK of where there is
42:47
Speaker 3: only one source of truth. In New Zealand about vaccination
42:52
Speaker 3: and health and what to do with the pandemic, you
42:55
Speaker 3: had to do what the government said or else. And
42:59
Speaker 3: it's just I don't know, like I say, if they
43:02
Speaker 3: are so out of touch with reality that they think
43:05
Speaker 3: that this is legitimate, or that they think that the
43:09
Speaker 3: hober is that they can get away with it. But
43:11
Speaker 3: of course, you know, it's just there's nothing.
43:14
Speaker 1: It's completely wrong, Absolutely it is.
43:17
Speaker 2: And I think what it does also is it brings
43:20
Speaker 2: to the fore the vehicle that was used in order
43:24
Speaker 2: to have this explosion of messaging from it, whether it
43:28
Speaker 2: be in relation to vaccines or to behaviors or interventions
43:35
Speaker 2: or whatever they were called restrictions. I mean, you know,
43:38
Speaker 2: the list is very very long, but all of this
43:40
Speaker 2: was predicated on the infectious disease model, in that if
43:46
Speaker 2: it couldn't be demonstrated or at least talked about, that
43:50
Speaker 2: one person could make another person ill, then frankly, public
43:52
Speaker 2: health is to a large extent dead in the water. Now,
43:56
Speaker 2: you referred earlier on to your with the book Virus Mania,
44:02
Speaker 2: that the important point here is that this has led
44:06
Speaker 2: you into a way of thinking that certainly wasn't covered
44:10
Speaker 2: in any of your medical training, but does have such
44:14
Speaker 2: a great significance in the way that public health, as
44:18
Speaker 2: I say, is sort of propagandized and broadcast about it.
44:21
Speaker 2: So I know it's a very very big area, but
44:25
Speaker 2: in terms of evidence and absence of evidence, just give
44:30
Speaker 2: us a sort of an update on where this has
44:32
Speaker 2: taken you with regard to the idea of infectious disease
44:36
Speaker 2: being a specter that should be feared.
44:40
Speaker 3: That book that changed me, Virus Mania, I ended up
44:43
Speaker 3: by chance becoming a co author, and this is her
44:47
Speaker 3: I think God works as it gets you into an
44:50
Speaker 3: area that you need to go into, and so I
44:53
Speaker 3: became a co author.
44:54
Speaker 1: A bit.
44:54
Speaker 3: They reached out to me and asked me if I
44:57
Speaker 3: had interview one of the author of the book, and
45:00
Speaker 3: I did, and then they asked me would i'd become
45:02
Speaker 3: a co author, and subsequently it sparked my interest in
45:10
Speaker 3: Mark as well. My husband Mark. I have to give
45:13
Speaker 3: him a plug because he's incredibly smart man and he
45:18
Speaker 3: has been always ahead of me in terms of the
45:20
Speaker 3: canary and the coal mine of realizing things. And then
45:24
Speaker 3: I catch up and go, oh, my gosh, you're right
45:27
Speaker 3: Mark about this. And so we've dived deeply into pandemics
45:32
Speaker 3: and for different people it speaks to them on different
45:38
Speaker 3: for different reasons. And for me personally, what really convinced
45:42
Speaker 3: me was under looking into the contagion experiments that were
45:45
Speaker 3: done in the Spanish flu era in nineteen eighteen and
45:49
Speaker 3: realizing that they couldn't make people sick with one of
45:52
Speaker 3: them reportedly most deadly viruses of our time, of our history.
46:00
Speaker 3: And so Mark and I have extensively researched numerous viruses
46:05
Speaker 3: and the background of virology and what we do as
46:09
Speaker 3: we go to the foundational papers where a virus is
46:12
Speaker 3: said to be and we unpack it and see what
46:17
Speaker 3: is the actually shown scientifically, and most of the time
46:20
Speaker 3: with virology, they don't do the basic scientific requirements for
46:24
Speaker 3: an experiment, so they don't do control studies a control arm.
46:30
Speaker 3: They do essentially torture experiments a lot of the time
46:33
Speaker 3: on animals to prove that there is a virus. And
46:39
Speaker 3: we've got a wide range of videos on these subjects.
46:45
Speaker 3: And also Mark's written a technical paper on virology itself,
46:50
Speaker 3: which is about twenty eight thousand words, which is really
46:53
Speaker 3: accessible to anybody, just for people that want to understand
46:58
Speaker 3: why we say what we say. It goes through it
47:01
Speaker 3: very logically and explains the science and background behind the
47:06
Speaker 3: fraud of virology. And it's important for us to Why
47:10
Speaker 3: I think this is so important is because most of
47:14
Speaker 3: us do things, especially in the last five years, we've
47:18
Speaker 3: seen that people do things out of fear, and fear
47:22
Speaker 3: of a virus is unnecessary and you can live. For
47:29
Speaker 3: me personally, I found it a very empowering aspect to
47:35
Speaker 3: hold on to because it impacts your life and the
47:38
Speaker 3: way you live and be healthy, how to be healthy,
47:42
Speaker 3: what causes a disease, what and especially infectious diseases. And
47:47
Speaker 3: you can see in terms of one world government and
47:50
Speaker 3: the New World Order that pandemics are one of the
47:53
Speaker 3: things that they're using to control people. I know there's
47:56
Speaker 3: lots of areas to this, but it's important that people
47:59
Speaker 3: unders and that pandemics are not you know, come out
48:06
Speaker 3: of a lab or come from bats jumping you know,
48:08
Speaker 3: into humans or anything. This is a fantasy construct that
48:17
Speaker 3: has no basis in scientific reality. And when you appreciate that,
48:23
Speaker 3: you don't fear germs and infectious diseases any longer. And
48:29
Speaker 3: for Mark and I, we've written another book called The
48:32
Speaker 3: Final Pandemic, which is again about what happened in COVID,
48:36
Speaker 3: and also it goes into lots of other different It's
48:39
Speaker 3: like a mini version of virus mania for people that
48:43
Speaker 3: are interested in learning more.
48:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, as I said, it is an
48:47
Speaker 2: absolutely enormous topic. But I really would encourage people to
48:51
Speaker 2: get into that and understand what it is that they
48:54
Speaker 2: haven't been told. I think critically. But the sort of
48:59
Speaker 2: mainstream response to that and the conditioned response that people
49:03
Speaker 2: are sort of provoked into having is well. But people
49:07
Speaker 2: still get ill, and people get ill at the same
49:09
Speaker 2: time and in the same place. And you've gone back
49:14
Speaker 2: to the sort of earlier part of the twentieth century
49:18
Speaker 2: and looked particularly at the work of ul Rick Williams,
49:21
Speaker 2: and you have you know, I think encapsulated all that
49:28
Speaker 2: that isn't talked to. Mean you just talked about a
49:29
Speaker 2: doctor speaking out about against McDonald's and then being shut down.
49:34
Speaker 1: So the you know the.
49:36
Speaker 2: Other side of it is, well, what are the other
49:38
Speaker 2: the other influences on our health? Just just talk a
49:41
Speaker 2: bit about that and indeed how in sort of modern
49:43
Speaker 2: society we are just pushed into a position where we're
49:46
Speaker 2: not even supposed to consider any other factors.
49:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, in Charles I I was very I
49:54
Speaker 3: was on this camp. You know, I was very orthodox
49:57
Speaker 3: and very much believed all of this until I until
50:01
Speaker 3: I locked into it myself. Like I said, it just
50:03
Speaker 3: it's an amazing transformation that I've had and the way
50:09
Speaker 3: we live, and you can see it with our own
50:13
Speaker 3: I just say really quickly, with our family, we're incredibly
50:15
Speaker 3: healthy and people can't look at us myself, my husband,
50:19
Speaker 3: are children and say that we're not healthy, because we
50:22
Speaker 3: are and we have skin in the game with that
50:25
Speaker 3: and that we want to live by what we say.
50:28
Speaker 3: So I think it's the understanding that when you talk
50:31
Speaker 3: to a doctor that they don't know anything about nutrition
50:34
Speaker 3: because it wasn't talked to them at medical school, and
50:37
Speaker 3: I know that we were taught about physiology and how
50:41
Speaker 3: pathways work with metabolism, but you don't know anything about
50:44
Speaker 3: nutrition or what to say to someone of what they
50:47
Speaker 3: should do. And it's all the basic things that our
50:50
Speaker 3: grandmothers knew, you know, like having a good diet and
50:55
Speaker 3: exercise and sunlight and living in a way in a
50:59
Speaker 3: positive way where you're around positive people, and happiness and
51:05
Speaker 3: low stress, and you know, and so it's all of
51:08
Speaker 3: the terrain. And I also like to explain the idea
51:12
Speaker 3: of terrain theory to people that are new to it,
51:15
Speaker 3: is that if you're interested in plants, I love gardening
51:20
Speaker 3: with plants. A plant doesn't just get sick randomly. Something
51:25
Speaker 3: usually happens to it. It's something wrong with the soil,
51:28
Speaker 3: too much water, not enough water, too much light, not
51:30
Speaker 3: enough light, and the makeup of the plant. Some are
51:35
Speaker 3: more resilient to others and can last a little bit longer,
51:38
Speaker 3: but eventually the bugs and everything come in to clean
51:42
Speaker 3: up when the plant is under stress. And that's the
51:46
Speaker 3: same thing that happens to us. We're surrounded by bacteria,
51:49
Speaker 3: micro organisms in us on us it's everywhere, and we
51:54
Speaker 3: can't we shouldn't be afraid of it, that it's part
51:57
Speaker 3: of a process of healing that's used. And so many
52:02
Speaker 3: people talk about this extensively, you know, historically and also currently,
52:08
Speaker 3: of that there's a way of looking at life where
52:12
Speaker 3: things don't just happen to us. Viruses don't just come
52:14
Speaker 3: out and jump on us and get us. Even when
52:18
Speaker 3: you say it like that, it's just it doesn't make
52:19
Speaker 3: any sense because it doesn't actually happen that way. And
52:23
Speaker 3: what I found over the last few years is learning
52:27
Speaker 3: what really causes disease. And like you said, there's a
52:31
Speaker 3: book by an author that was his deceased now doctor
52:35
Speaker 3: Auic Williams, that we brought back to understand the terrain
52:39
Speaker 3: why we get sick and what you can do about it.
52:42
Speaker 3: In that book's called Terrain Therapy that I've also been involved.
52:46
Speaker 2: In, which I should say is absolutely fascinating and I've
52:51
Speaker 2: definitely encourage people to have a look at that. But
52:53
Speaker 2: I think you know, we've talked about free speech and
52:55
Speaker 2: the way in which the medical profession is used as
52:58
Speaker 2: part of the control grid by in effect subconsciously at
53:03
Speaker 2: least fear mongering through this paradigm of the idea that
53:09
Speaker 2: people will make other people ill. And of course the
53:11
Speaker 2: other thing that's being done, very obviously is the creation
53:16
Speaker 2: of a very very sort of stark divide between those
53:20
Speaker 2: that do believe the paradigm and those that are you know,
53:24
Speaker 2: classified as being well at least spreaders of harmful misinformation
53:31
Speaker 2: or insane for suggesting that the mainstream virological paradigm is
53:38
Speaker 2: not actually the case. And that again seems wilful because
53:41
Speaker 2: of course a lot of the terminology, let's say, immunity,
53:45
Speaker 2: you know, a weaker organism will of course be susceptible.
53:49
Speaker 2: It's just that the description of the mainstream is susceptible
53:52
Speaker 2: to something that's being passed from somebody else. Now you
53:59
Speaker 2: have a a two way sort of street, as it were,
54:02
Speaker 2: with your audience. Are you getting the sense that there
54:06
Speaker 2: is a greater degree of knowledge being built up? I
54:11
Speaker 2: mean obviously amongst those that do follow you. But are
54:15
Speaker 2: you finding people who are perhaps less likely to have
54:19
Speaker 2: been exposed to such thoughts now, you know, shifting in
54:25
Speaker 2: their beliefs. Is there a ripple effect to all of this?
54:29
Speaker 3: Absolutely? And I think what I've definitely witnessed, I mean,
54:34
Speaker 3: even since twenty twenty. Obviously, the fear levels have dropped massively,
54:39
Speaker 3: and I think that's really important because people are far
54:43
Speaker 3: more likely to be open to things when they're not
54:45
Speaker 3: fearful to hearing it, you know, for the first time.
54:49
Speaker 3: And what I've found fascinating is just in some ways
54:53
Speaker 3: it's been cruel and horrid as well, but as most
54:56
Speaker 3: people that you talk to know someone that has been
54:59
Speaker 3: vaccin injured, at least, this is the way it is
55:02
Speaker 3: in New Zealand and so you can more easily talk
55:07
Speaker 3: to people about things or at least digest things, and
55:10
Speaker 3: they're open to it. And I think what I really
55:15
Speaker 3: find an impact well, just positive, I guess, is to
55:20
Speaker 3: see people the public are really onto it and really
55:25
Speaker 3: well educated and far more than I think the authorities
55:30
Speaker 3: give them any credit for, you know. I think it's
55:32
Speaker 3: this that this is what was always thrown at me
55:35
Speaker 3: was that my audience are health illiterate and I'm misleading
55:39
Speaker 3: them because they're illiterate. And I thought, oh my gosh,
55:42
Speaker 3: if only they knew how clever the people are that
55:48
Speaker 3: I feel privileged that they will come and listen to me,
55:52
Speaker 3: you know, versus others. But it's yeah, I definitely have
55:55
Speaker 3: seen a shift in the at least the last five years,
55:59
Speaker 3: and I think there are so many areas that you
56:02
Speaker 3: can tap into with people. It doesn't it's not necessarily virology.
56:10
Speaker 3: Like I say, I don't find it extremely interesting or anything.
56:13
Speaker 3: It's just it's a very boring subject. But it's been
56:17
Speaker 3: used to control us, and so I want to be
56:20
Speaker 3: an expert in this area, so I know I will
56:23
Speaker 3: not be controlled.
56:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's the critical bit.
56:27
Speaker 2: You know that this is designed very specifically and wielded
56:33
Speaker 2: as a tool of creating fear with which to create fear,
56:37
Speaker 2: and that clearly has a detrimental effect on your mental state.
56:41
Speaker 2: But I would say also your your physical state. They're
56:45
Speaker 2: inextricably linked. There will be a percentage of people listening
56:49
Speaker 2: to this for whom a lot of these concepts are
56:53
Speaker 2: new or at least problematic, because like all of us,
56:58
Speaker 2: like you, particularly, having been in the medical profession where
57:00
Speaker 2: this was stated as absolute, rigid fact and there was
57:05
Speaker 2: there was no debate about it at all. To go
57:09
Speaker 2: on that path of sort of eliminating fear from your
57:12
Speaker 2: life but not having to spend the next forty years
57:15
Speaker 2: reading into the literature, what sort of steps would you
57:20
Speaker 2: recommend to people to start to get their lives on
57:23
Speaker 2: the right track and to you know, to start to
57:25
Speaker 2: push that fear away.
57:28
Speaker 3: It's a really good question. A person right to me recently,
57:31
Speaker 3: and I thought was really insightful is that they said,
57:35
Speaker 3: with anything with health, you have to have confidence in
57:39
Speaker 3: what you're doing, and that a lot of this comes
57:42
Speaker 3: down to your own testing and experimenting with yourself and
57:46
Speaker 3: getting confidence with that. And that has definitely been the
57:50
Speaker 3: case for myself, where what I used to believe that
57:53
Speaker 3: I'd need to take into biotics for in a certain situation,
57:57
Speaker 3: I would myself not do that and see what would
57:59
Speaker 3: happen to me and realizing having confidence in that process
58:03
Speaker 3: that you are able to heal yourself and then you know,
58:07
Speaker 3: moving along next time doing something else a little bit more.
58:11
Speaker 3: And I think it is firstly, I always suggest to
58:16
Speaker 3: people that you need to know everything that you're putting
58:18
Speaker 3: in your body, and that's where your water comes from,
58:21
Speaker 3: where your food comes from, what is it? What are
58:24
Speaker 3: you eating. We're not very prescriptive with a certain diet,
58:28
Speaker 3: but it's just knowing what isn't it, looking at the
58:30
Speaker 3: ingredients on packets and things like that, just thinking about it,
58:33
Speaker 3: opening your mind and being in the moment for a
58:37
Speaker 3: second rather than passively doing things like think about it
58:40
Speaker 3: where you're getting these things from. And I also encourage
58:45
Speaker 3: people to just test it with you know, say you're
58:48
Speaker 3: having your grand kids over or something and they're sick.
58:51
Speaker 3: Just see what happens. Just see are you going to
58:53
Speaker 3: get sick? A lot of it is our own conditioning
58:56
Speaker 3: that we think we're going to get sick we're being
58:57
Speaker 3: around them and children or whatever. And I know this
59:02
Speaker 3: myself with my own with my own kids. Over this
59:06
Speaker 3: journey of seeing I'm not fearful of when a child
59:10
Speaker 3: has a running nose or you know that I might
59:12
Speaker 3: get sick. And part of it is actually just having
59:15
Speaker 3: faith that we are so much more robust than we
59:18
Speaker 3: are told. And yeah, and another thing I think that's
59:23
Speaker 3: always really important and people identify this with this immediately,
59:26
Speaker 3: is knowing why do the big farmer and things do this.
59:32
Speaker 3: It's because there's billions, if not trillions of dollars involved.
59:35
Speaker 3: And this is involved with from the whole SHPAM from
59:39
Speaker 3: diagnosis testing, you know, the all these different tests that
59:44
Speaker 3: people undergo now and through to treatments and vaccines and
59:49
Speaker 3: you know, all the rest of it. It's realizing follow
59:53
Speaker 3: the money of where this goes, and that we don't
59:57
Speaker 3: need all this stuff to be healthy. It's we don't
1:00:02
Speaker 3: actually need that system. And if you want to start
1:00:06
Speaker 3: on this journey, look into it yourself. Don't just take
1:00:09
Speaker 3: my word for it. Look into it and experiment with
1:00:14
Speaker 3: yourself and see, you know, and you'll get more confidence
1:00:17
Speaker 3: with time.
1:00:19
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's such a sound message.
1:00:22
Speaker 2: And again, you know, you refer back to the pharmaceutical
1:00:25
Speaker 2: industry and of course absolutely a gigantic racket, and there
1:00:30
Speaker 2: is money to be made at every turn, but a
1:00:32
Speaker 2: lot of that is done by convincing people that the
1:00:36
Speaker 2: cause and effect is as they say it is. So
1:00:39
Speaker 2: you've just spoken about a running nose, which, of course,
1:00:42
Speaker 2: to the majority of people is to is considered to
1:00:46
Speaker 2: be the illness itself, rather than the expression of your
1:00:49
Speaker 2: body trying to deal with its current situation. So you
1:00:55
Speaker 2: take the drug and then you believe that that is
1:00:58
Speaker 2: what has made you better. So I think we live
1:01:01
Speaker 2: in a culture where we expect that to be a
1:01:03
Speaker 2: quick fix because we've taken something. But the quick fix
1:01:08
Speaker 2: is not really the right way to be thinking about anything.
1:01:12
Speaker 3: I don't think absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. Child,
1:01:17
Speaker 3: it's not and I think you deprive yourself of actually
1:01:22
Speaker 3: what true health is by thinking along those lines. It's
1:01:29
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a huge area to unpack, but I
1:01:32
Speaker 3: think it's having in a confidence of knowing that you
1:01:37
Speaker 3: don't need This is a sick system that we're dealing with.
1:01:41
Speaker 3: It's not a health system, and there's no incentive for
1:01:46
Speaker 3: them to help you. It's always about making you on
1:01:50
Speaker 3: the conveyor belt as part of that sick system. And
1:01:54
Speaker 3: we're conditioned from as soon as we're born, you know,
1:01:57
Speaker 3: born in a hospital and die in a hospital. It's said,
1:02:01
Speaker 3: but all these traditions that have been lost of how
1:02:05
Speaker 3: to be well, and they're all the old stuff, you know,
1:02:07
Speaker 3: the old school things that like a Graham, well my Graham,
1:02:09
Speaker 3: I used to say, and I used to think, are
1:02:12
Speaker 3: you do you really you know? Is it really true?
1:02:15
Speaker 3: And now I sort of look back and think, oh
1:02:18
Speaker 3: my gosh, I just I wish i'd hit a bit
1:02:19
Speaker 3: more time to talk to her about it.
1:02:23
Speaker 2: Well, I think this is it, and you know, we're
1:02:25
Speaker 2: going to need to sort of wrap up quite soon.
1:02:28
Speaker 2: But talking to people is of course the most important
1:02:32
Speaker 2: aspect of all of this, and wherever possible in person.
1:02:37
Speaker 2: But it's very hard when one thinks like you do,
1:02:41
Speaker 2: and you have had that moment of discovering that things
1:02:45
Speaker 2: are not as you've been told that they were, it's
1:02:48
Speaker 2: very hard to consider being anything other than evangelical about it.
1:02:54
Speaker 2: And of course that can have a terrifically detrimental effect,
1:02:57
Speaker 2: because you can appear heavy handed if you're trying to
1:02:59
Speaker 2: convince people that in effect, you're right and they're wrong.
1:03:04
Speaker 2: If I'm not suggesting there is a sort of magic bullet,
1:03:07
Speaker 2: but how would you recommend sort of going about beginning
1:03:12
Speaker 2: to communicate with people about this sort of thing.
1:03:17
Speaker 3: I'm very much I don't try and force things on people.
1:03:20
Speaker 3: I find that if people, if people want to find
1:03:24
Speaker 3: me looking for the answers, that they'll find me, and
1:03:28
Speaker 3: I don't need to I don't need to do any
1:03:30
Speaker 3: of the work. Yeah, so I'm always teenative because I
1:03:35
Speaker 3: know that it's splits families apart. We've all seen this.
1:03:38
Speaker 3: It's been hideous of just how much the governments have
1:03:44
Speaker 3: split us into groups and so that we can't even
1:03:47
Speaker 3: talk to each other any longer. I think that it
1:03:51
Speaker 3: really comes down to the person themselves, and I just
1:03:55
Speaker 3: I try and have a rapport with someone and you know,
1:03:58
Speaker 3: just make little cities of what do you think about it?
1:04:02
Speaker 3: What you know, does that make sense to you sort
1:04:05
Speaker 3: of thing, and if it makes sense to them, and
1:04:07
Speaker 3: then I won't go any further. But if they have
1:04:09
Speaker 3: questions and things, I'm like, well, just you know, just
1:04:11
Speaker 3: keep sort of chipping away. And I'm still to this
1:04:16
Speaker 3: day Charles like, it's amazing the people that have only
1:04:19
Speaker 3: just found our work, and it blows me away that they,
1:04:24
Speaker 3: you know, like I had a person that was part
1:04:27
Speaker 3: of a had polio from when they were young and
1:04:32
Speaker 3: had been part of a polyo organization and they recently
1:04:36
Speaker 3: found us and realized that what had happened was, you know,
1:04:39
Speaker 3: she had been poisoned with DDT when she was younger,
1:04:42
Speaker 3: and for most of her life she'd believed that this
1:04:45
Speaker 3: was a virus and it was someone smearing of me,
1:04:50
Speaker 3: like in the same group, and thought, well, this woman
1:04:54
Speaker 3: sounds like really bad, so I need to look and
1:04:56
Speaker 3: see what she's saying. So, you know, it's amazing how
1:05:01
Speaker 3: people will will find you that need to find you.
1:05:04
Speaker 3: And I just think you've got to scratch that itch
1:05:08
Speaker 3: and keep looking.
1:05:11
Speaker 1: Absolutely it really is.
1:05:12
Speaker 2: And I know a lot of people will want to
1:05:14
Speaker 2: do exactly this and to find where they can follow
1:05:17
Speaker 2: what you are doing, what you have been doing, So
1:05:20
Speaker 2: just tell us where. I mean, there is an absolute
1:05:24
Speaker 2: enormous trove of material that you have produced, and I
1:05:26
Speaker 2: know people want it to go towards it. Where where
1:05:29
Speaker 2: should people go to find more about what you're doing?
1:05:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I have my own website which is probably
1:05:36
Speaker 3: the most reliable and accurate everything, which is doctor Dear.
1:05:40
Speaker 3: I won't give that up you Sam Bailey b A
1:05:45
Speaker 3: I L. E. Y dot com. And if you follow
1:05:49
Speaker 3: on substick, we have a I have a substick there
1:05:51
Speaker 3: as well. In Sor it's doctor sam Bailey dot substick
1:05:57
Speaker 3: dot com. And I'm on various like on YouTube. If
1:06:00
Speaker 3: you'll look at my name, you'll probably find me and
1:06:05
Speaker 3: various other but there's sort of smaller platforms like Odyssey
1:06:09
Speaker 3: and things. But I think for most of our work,
1:06:11
Speaker 3: if you can go to the website and most of
1:06:14
Speaker 3: our content is available for free. We put the information
1:06:19
Speaker 3: out to the public because we think it's really important
1:06:21
Speaker 3: for people to learn and to know that it's not
1:06:24
Speaker 3: all what we're told, and there is another way to health.
1:06:31
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, there certainly is. And all of what samser
1:06:34
Speaker 2: said and other things that have been referenced in the
1:06:36
Speaker 2: interview will be put into the notes, So no need
1:06:38
Speaker 2: to get the pencil and paper acts scribble all that down.
1:06:41
Speaker 1: It will be written down in the notes.
1:06:44
Speaker 2: No, Sam Bailey, we have barely scratched the surface. We've
1:06:47
Speaker 2: covered a huge amount of growing nonetheless, and you are
1:06:50
Speaker 2: not going to be paying any corrupt the organizations any
1:06:53
Speaker 2: money at all. So the audience have an awful lot
1:06:56
Speaker 2: to think about they as they do go away in
1:07:00
Speaker 2: consideration of what you've said. But thank you so much
1:07:02
Speaker 2: for joining me, and I do hope you will come
1:07:05
Speaker 2: back and give us an update at some point in
1:07:07
Speaker 2: the future.
1:07:08
Speaker 1: Sam Bailey, thank you so much.
1:07:10
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much, Charles. It's been such a pleasure.